Advantage: Camera Drones?
Emily Smirle
send out little "remote eyeballs" to scout areas. In any other system
I'd base it on Clairvoyance, but the drastically reduced range in
GURPS makes it a bit inconvenient.
What I'm thinking of is an advantage that grants something
like a Wizard Eye, but walks by default (flight or clinging or
swimming would be enhancements probably), doesn't cost fatigue unless
you put a limitation on it, and is slow (move 2ish). I personally have
issues using Knacks as the basis for an advantage if I have any other
options as they are usually not very ballenced with the rest of the
system, but if nobody can think of anything, I'll live with it.
I can see the "special effect" being a little camera on wheels
for a robot, a familiar for a mage, or litterally your own eyeball for
a zombie, so it's not *too* esoteric.
Limitations might include a "transmition range" or a sort of
batter/time limit (robot runs out of fuel, eyeball dries out), low
resolution, etc., but I don't have a base cost.
Any takers?
Emily "Skitter Sight" Smirle
--
Visit Sailor Squasher's Games Page!
Happy home of collected stuffness for GURPS,
World of Darkness, and more!
http://www.magma.ca/~esmirle/
Jay Bryant
knack.
Emily Smirle <esm...@magma.ca> wrote in article
<373f823...@news.magma.ca>...
StevenA201
>send out little "remote eyeballs" to scout areas. In any other system
>I'd base it on Clairvoyance, but the drastically reduced range in
>GURPS makes it a bit inconvenient.
Walter Jon Williams had these in his ; tiny orbiting cameras that all the
papparazzi used. In a SF setting, I'd just call then gear. Terribly useful,
but prone to breakdown, confiscation, etc.
I'd charge $$ instead of CP. Dunno about a fantasy setting, I don't do that.
And, BTW, those Drake Maijstral stories would make an AWESOME RPG... the main
character is a celebrity burglar, who can keep his loot only if the theft is
stylish!
Emily Smirle
>> I've been trying to figure out how to price the ability to
>>send out little "remote eyeballs" to scout areas. In any other system
>>I'd base it on Clairvoyance, but the drastically reduced range in
>>GURPS makes it a bit inconvenient.
>
>Walter Jon Williams had these in his ; tiny orbiting cameras that all the
>papparazzi used. In a SF setting, I'd just call then gear. Terribly useful,
>but prone to breakdown, confiscation, etc.
>
>I'd charge $$ instead of CP. Dunno about a fantasy setting, I don't do that.
Actually, I'm thinking in terms of a supers game, where it's a
power, not a gadget ie a super robot character, a super sorcerer,
someone converted from Freak Legion, a character built using G:Undead.
The "pull your own eyeball out and have it bounce/crawl around on
its own" would be an interesting companion advantage to Independant
Body Parts.
This is really another way to do remote senses, and I guess it
could be expanded on to be any remote sense whatsoever. I think the
clairsentience rules really don't work for this sort of thing, and I
*like* having an alternate way to do it.
>And, BTW, those Drake Maijstral stories would make an AWESOME RPG... the main
>character is a celebrity burglar, who can keep his loot only if the theft is
>stylish!
Gonna have to read those. :)
Emily "Damn. Sat on my eyeball." Smirle
Gregory L. Hansen
Emily Smirle <esm...@magma.ca> wrote:
>On 17 May 1999 03:14:48 GMT, StevenA201 giggled:
>
>>> I've been trying to figure out how to price the ability to
>>>send out little "remote eyeballs" to scout areas. In any other system
>>>I'd base it on Clairvoyance, but the drastically reduced range in
>>>GURPS makes it a bit inconvenient.
>>
>>Walter Jon Williams had these in his ; tiny orbiting cameras that all the
>>papparazzi used. In a SF setting, I'd just call then gear. Terribly useful,
>>but prone to breakdown, confiscation, etc.
>>
>>I'd charge $$ instead of CP. Dunno about a fantasy setting, I don't do that.
>
> Actually, I'm thinking in terms of a supers game, where it's a
>power, not a gadget ie a super robot character, a super sorcerer,
>someone converted from Freak Legion, a character built using G:Undead.
> The "pull your own eyeball out and have it bounce/crawl around on
>its own" would be an interesting companion advantage to Independant
>Body Parts.
"Rocket from the socket!"
In the cartoon show The Tick, an old-timer superhero could shoot his eyes
from the sockets, and they'd zip around and look at things. And that was
his catch-phrase.
--
And remember, when packing up biohazardous waste, don't "burp" the bag!
Emily Smirle
Damn. I think I missed that episode.
In Freak Legion, there's a power called "Skitter Sight", where you
pull your eye out of your head, twist the optic nerve into little
feet, and send it hopping about looking at things. If you let it go
for too long, the eye falls apart and if you can't grow a new one,
you're One Eyed for the rest of the campeign.
Emily "You know, I'm really running out of eyes here." Smirle
Emily Smirle
>Emily Smirle <esm...@magma.ca> wrote in article
><373f823...@news.magma.ca>...
>> I've been trying to figure out how to price the ability to
>> send out little "remote eyeballs" to scout areas. In any other system
>> I'd base it on Clairvoyance, but the drastically reduced range in
>> GURPS makes it a bit inconvenient.
>> What I'm thinking of is an advantage that grants something
>> like a Wizard Eye, but walks by default (flight or clinging or
>> swimming would be enhancements probably), doesn't cost fatigue unless
>> you put a limitation on it, and is slow (move 2ish). I personally have
>> issues using Knacks as the basis for an advantage if I have any other
>> options as they are usually not very ballenced with the rest of the
>> system, but if nobody can think of anything, I'll live with it.
>>
>> I can see the "special effect" being a little camera on wheels
>> for a robot, a familiar for a mage, or litterally your own eyeball for
>> a zombie, so it's not *too* esoteric.
>>
>> Limitations might include a "transmition range" or a sort of
>> batter/time limit (robot runs out of fuel, eyeball dries out), low
>> resolution, etc., but I don't have a base cost.
>>
>> Any takers?
>>
>How about the Clairvoyance advantage from G: Psionics? Much cheaper than a
>knack.
As I said in the first paragraph, Clairvoyance in GURPS hase issues
for this sort of thing. The range is expressed in *inches*, and the
area is limited by the power level. If I have a remote camera, I don't
expect to see a solid grey wall at a certain range unless there is a
solid grey wall there, which is the sorta effect you get with
Clairvoyance. It also requires skill rolls and IIRC has a fixed
location. I'm thinking of (by default) having a mobile camera.
Emily "Damn. Dropped my eye." Smirle
MSArchmage
>I've been trying to figure out how to price the ability to
>send out little "remote eyeballs" to scout areas. In any other system
>I'd base it on Clairvoyance, but the drastically reduced range in
>GURPS makes it a bit inconvenient.
> What I'm thinking of is an advantage that grants something
>like a Wizard Eye, but walks by default (flight or clinging or
>swimming would be enhancements probably), doesn't cost fatigue unless
>you put a limitation on it, and is slow (move 2ish). I personally have
>issues using Knacks as the basis for an advantage if I have any other
>options as they are usually not very ballenced with the rest of the
>system, but if nobody can think of anything, I'll live with it.
>
> I can see the "special effect" being a little camera on wheels
>for a robot, a familiar for a mage, or litterally your own eyeball for
>a zombie, so it's not *too* esoteric.
>
> Limitations might include a "transmition range" or a sort of
>batter/time limit (robot runs out of fuel, eyeball dries out), low
>resolution, etc., but I don't have a base cost.
>
>Any takers?
>
I don't know if this helps much, but here goes...you could use the costs of
Clairvoyance to give you the transmission range, and simply allow the eye to
see at its normal range from whatever point it's at. I'd say that the benefits
(not bothered by anti-psionic measures) and hindrances (slow move, as well as
only on the ground (by default)) balance out. Don't forget the problem of not
having depth perception, if it applies!
Remember: Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your
friend.
JefWilson
writes:
> I've been trying to figure out how to price the ability to
>send out little "remote eyeballs" to scout areas. In any other system
>I'd base it on Clairvoyance, but the drastically reduced range in
>GURPS makes it a bit inconvenient.
I recently had reason to look at the vision powers in GURPS and decided there's
something really strange going on with the vision powers. Sonar Vision costs
25 points, Radar Sense costs 50+1/hex and is _less_ effective than Sonar
Vision, Sense of Perception costs 100 and either doesn't describe all its
bonuses or uses a cost of 25 to look inside everything within 100 miles.
What we need is a whole system for developing alternate types of vision. While
I'm working on such a system, It's barely begun. However, in this particular
case I'd suggest the following:
Remote Viewing: 50 points
This advantage permits a character to view from a point distant from his body.
Weapons or devices on a character's person may not be targeted using remote
viewing unless the remote view is from the character's body, but otherwise
viewing uses the normal range limitations. Not being able to use normal vision
simultaneously with remote viewing is a -50% limitation. Each additional
viewpoint available is a +10% enhancement (not cumulative with the previous).
If the viewpoint cannot move instantaneously that is a limitation worth -5% for
a move of 1000, -10% for a move of 100, -15% for a move of 10, -20% for a move
of 1, and -50% for a viewpoint that cannot be moved. If the viewpoint can only
be moved within a limited range that's a limitation worth -5% for a range of
1000, -10% for a range of 100, and -25% for a range of 10. Visual Advantages
(Telescopic, Microscopic, 360-Degree, etc.) may be purchased with the
limitation Only With Remote Viewing for -20%.
When I'm done with my completed system for Altersight, I'll submit it to
Pyramid.
Jeff Wilson
http://members.aol.com/JefWilson/rpg/
Kitarak
writes:
>As I said in the first paragraph, Clairvoyance in GURPS hase issues
>for this sort of thing. The range is expressed in *inches*, and the
>area is limited by the power level. If I have a remote camera, I don't
>expect to see a solid grey wall at a certain range unless there is a
>solid grey wall there, which is the sorta effect you get with
>Clairvoyance. It also requires skill rolls and IIRC has a fixed
>location. I'm thinking of (by default) having a mobile camera.
Hmm... I always looked at it as you could shift your PoV by a distance equal to
power squared in inches, not that would limit the actual distance you could
see. I don't have psionics yet (will be getting it tomorrow), so I'm probably
wrong. It still doesn't work for cameras. :-)
--------------------------------------
Kitarak
Get rid of Spam to E-mail me.
People don't mature, they just find new ways to express their childishness.
Emily Smirle
>In article <373f823...@news.magma.ca>, esm...@magma.ca (Emily Smirle)
>writes:
>
>> I've been trying to figure out how to price the ability to
>>send out little "remote eyeballs" to scout areas. In any other system
>>I'd base it on Clairvoyance, but the drastically reduced range in
>>GURPS makes it a bit inconvenient.
>
>I recently had reason to look at the vision powers in GURPS and decided there's
>something really strange going on with the vision powers. Sonar Vision costs
>25 points, Radar Sense costs 50+1/hex and is _less_ effective than Sonar
>Vision, Sense of Perception costs 100 and either doesn't describe all its
>bonuses or uses a cost of 25 to look inside everything within 100 miles.
Which version of Radar bugs you, the low-res or high res? or both?
I have to admit, the high-res one just doesn't work for me, and for
low-res radar, a base cost of 50 points seems really excessive. I'm
thinking of using a base of 10-15, and a per-level of 5, and "Sonar"
Vision for High-res Radar, with the special effect "It's Radar, not
Sonar".
I'm assuming you picked these 3 powers for your example because
they all let you look inside of things, like an altered version of
clairevoyance. There's also Penetrating Vision, which is also quirky,
but seems to be one of the direct ancestors of Sense of Perception
(along with 360 vision).
>What we need is a whole system for developing alternate types of vision. While
>I'm working on such a system, It's barely begun. However, in this particular
>case I'd suggest the following:
>
>Remote Viewing: 50 points
>
<snip>
>When I'm done with my completed system for Altersight, I'll submit it to
>Pyramid.
Well if this is any indication, I think I'm definitely going to like
this article. :) Just a question though, how did you get the point
value? Logical fiat, or based off of something in system?
>Jeff Wilson
>http://members.aol.com/JefWilson/rpg/
>
Emily "Fiat Lux!" Smirle
Emily Smirle
>In article <373f8ab3...@news.magma.ca>, esm...@magma.ca (Emily Smirle)
>writes:
>
>>As I said in the first paragraph, Clairvoyance in GURPS hase issues
>>for this sort of thing. The range is expressed in *inches*, and the
>>area is limited by the power level. If I have a remote camera, I don't
>>expect to see a solid grey wall at a certain range unless there is a
>>solid grey wall there, which is the sorta effect you get with
>>Clairvoyance. It also requires skill rolls and IIRC has a fixed
>>location. I'm thinking of (by default) having a mobile camera.
>
>Hmm... I always looked at it as you could shift your PoV by a distance equal to
>power squared in inches, not that would limit the actual distance you could
>see. I don't have psionics yet (will be getting it tomorrow), so I'm probably
>wrong. It still doesn't work for cameras. :-)
It does shift the PoV, but the area you can see from the new PoV is
limited, and cannot be extended by any means know to psi (mirrors etc
are officially out, IIRC).
I have to admit, I prefer the Champions version of Clairevoyance. It
makes stuff like this a *lot* easier to work out. :P
Emily "But I wanna play GURPS!" Smirle
Franz & Michael Köttl
19990517053805...@ngol03.aol.com...
> In article <373f8ab3...@news.magma.ca>, esm...@magma.ca (Emily
Smirle)
> writes:
>
> >As I said in the first paragraph, Clairvoyance in GURPS hase issues
> >for this sort of thing. The range is expressed in *inches*, and the
> >area is limited by the power level. If I have a remote camera, I
don't
> >expect to see a solid grey wall at a certain range unless there is a
> >solid grey wall there, which is the sorta effect you get with
> >Clairvoyance. It also requires skill rolls and IIRC has a fixed
> >location. I'm thinking of (by default) having a mobile camera.
>
> Hmm... I always looked at it as you could shift your PoV by a distance
equal to
> power squared in inches, not that would limit the actual distance you
could
> see. I don't have psionics yet (will be getting it tomorrow), so I'm
probably
> wrong. It still doesn't work for cameras. :-)
Clairvoyance allows to choose a viewpoint within Power squared inches.
The area seen is half the range. The main advantage of Clairvoyance is
to see through solid objects and ignore darkness penalties. So certainly
not suited for cameras :-)
Just some ideas.
Michael Köttl
Joshua Wehner
> I recently had reason to look at the vision powers in GURPS and decided
> there's something really strange going on with the vision powers.
> Sonar Vision costs 25 points, Radar Sense costs 50+1/hex and is _less_
Ummm... but Sonar Vision doesn't work in a vacuum!
(I dunno... I'm trying...)
joshua
--
long_...@my-dejanews.com is a spam-closet,
meaningful replies to jwehner AT mindless.com
JefWilson
writes:
>Well if this is any indication, I think I'm definitely going to like
>this article. :) Just a question though, how did you get the point
>value? Logical fiat, or based off of something in system?
I choose to base new visual sense pricing off of Sonar Vision and Blindness.
Radar Sense is too expensive, and Sense of Perception is either too expensive
(if you limit it to exactly what's described) or too cheap (if you interpolate
what should be there).
Using that logic it seems that the visual sense is worth 50 points. However,
having more than one sense reduces the cost by 50% so long as the various
senses can only be used one at a time.
That how I read the current rules anyway, and it would seem to be point
balanced with the other advantages.
Jeff Wilson
http://members.aol.com/JefWilson/rpg/
Franz & Michael Köttl
19990517051937...@ngol04.aol.com...
> In article <373f823...@news.magma.ca>, esm...@magma.ca (Emily
Smirle)
> writes:
>
> > I've been trying to figure out how to price the ability to
> >send out little "remote eyeballs" to scout areas. In any other system
> >I'd base it on Clairvoyance, but the drastically reduced range in
> >GURPS makes it a bit inconvenient.
>
decided there's
> something really strange going on with the vision powers. Sonar
Vision costs
> 25 points, Radar Sense costs 50+1/hex and is _less_ effective than
Sonar
its
> bonuses or uses a cost of 25 to look inside everything within 100
miles.
>
vision. While
> I'm working on such a system, It's barely begun. However, in this
particular
> case I'd suggest the following:
>
> Remote Viewing: 50 points
>
his body.
> Weapons or devices on a character's person may not be targeted using
remote
> viewing unless the remote view is from the character's body, but
otherwise
> viewing uses the normal range limitations. Not being able to use
normal vision
> simultaneously with remote viewing is a -50% limitation. Each
additional
> viewpoint available is a +10% enhancement (not cumulative with the
previous).
> If the viewpoint cannot move instantaneously that is a limitation
worth -5% for
> a move of 1000, -10% for a move of 100, -15% for a move of 10, -20%
for a move
> of 1, and -50% for a viewpoint that cannot be moved. If the viewpoint
can only
> be moved within a limited range that's a limitation worth -5% for a
range of
> 1000, -10% for a range of 100, and -25% for a range of 10. Visual
Advantages
> (Telescopic, Microscopic, 360-Degree, etc.) may be purchased with the
> limitation Only With Remote Viewing for -20%.
>
to
> Pyramid.
>
To create a new, logical system, we should look at the current
vision-related advantages:
Arc of Vision:
120° free
180° Peripheral Vision [15]
360° 360-Degree Vision [25]
Color:
full colour free
no colour colour blindness [-10]
Skill Bonus:
No Blindness [-50]
-3 Bad sight, farsighted [-10/-25]
-2 Bad Sight, nearsighted [-10/-25]
+0 free
+1 Acute Vision [2/lvl]
Darkness Penalties:
double Night Blindness [-10]
normal free
half Night Vision [10]
none Darkvision [25]
Size/Range
Telescopic Vision [6/lvl]
each level doubles range
Microscopic Vision [4/lvl]
each level doubles magnification
No Depth perception [-10]
-1 in melee, -3 ranged
Non-Light Vision:
Infravision [15]
Spectrum Vision [40]
incl.Infravision [15]
See Invisible [15]
Penetrating Vision [10/6 in]
Compound Advantages:
Sonar Vision [25]
includes: colorblind [-10], Penetrating Vision 1 yd, blocked by several
common substances [24]
Radar Sense, hi-res [50+1/yd]
Radar Sense, low-res [50+1/mi]
includes: 360-degree vision [25], colorblind [-10], Penetrating Vision,
uncommon substance [4/6in], low-res [??]
Sense of Perception [100]
includes: 360-degree vision [25], Penetrating Vision [10/6in], low-res
[??]
Now: has anyone found, what "low-res" might cost?
Just some ideas
Michael Köttl
JefWilson
<mob...@aktiv.co.at> writes:
<A bunch of thing I snipped>
Thanks for the review. I actually overlooked Night Blindness. However, you
overlooked the visual modifiers in GURPS Robots. All these are being
considered as I write my article.
>Now: has anyone found, what "low-res" might cost?
_Robots_ prices it as Bad Sight at -25. As a component of Faz Sense and Radar
Sense its priced much more severely and inconsistently.
Jeff Wilson
http://members.aol.com/JefWilson/rpg/
Amber, Dan, Dare, or Julie
>
> I've been trying to figure out how to price the ability to
> send out little "remote eyeballs" to scout areas.
Hm. I'd begin by assuming PCs have a 25-point advantage, Light
Vision(based on a flip through CI). Next, I'd apply the Moveable
Area(+40%) enhancement, plus a new limitation(-10%) which prevents its
attachment to objects, plus a new enhancement(+10% per point of Move)
which lets the area "walk", plus a new enhancement(+10%) which lets you
still use your original vision. This translates to a base +60% for Move
2, or an advantage worth 15 points. Each percent of additional
enhancements and limitations is worth a quarter of a point.
> Limitations might include a "transmi[ss]ion range"
Hm. Perhaps an extra -25%(~ -6 points) gives a range limit of 10*HT
hexes? Use Reduced Range from there.
> or a sort of
> batter[y]/time limit (robot runs out of fuel, eyeball dries out),
I'd use Limited Use, which can treat an hour of an advantage being on
as one use.
> low
> resolution, etc.
<snip>
UT2 has some limitations you could use for that(I'm too lazy to look it
up; I think it's under cybereyes in the cyber chapter).
You might also want to un-buy the implicit No Obvious Effect(-10% to
see the eye/robot/etc. at -4, -20% to see it unmodified). I'd use one
percent per two points of Flight/Clinging/etc. as enhancements to this
power. (Actually, since they only apply to the "zombie eye" portion of
the advantage, you could just consider them to be 1% per point
enhancements on the 12.5-point enhancement we produced...)
- DARE, GURPSist extraordinaire and plenipotentiary
* All typos in the previous message are to be considered edicts of Eris.
Please update your dictionaries accordingly.
* Hi! I'm a .sig virus! Join the fun and copy me into yours! :)
* Spammers looking for addresses? Try these: Betty...@co.ru,
spen...@020.co.uk, Be...@shepfs1.und.ac.za Spam me and get your
address here today!
Emily Smirle
>In article <92691204...@gerhard.atnet.at>, "Franz & Michael Köttl"
><mob...@aktiv.co.at> writes:
>
><A bunch of thing I snipped>
>
>Thanks for the review. I actually overlooked Night Blindness. However, you
>overlooked the visual modifiers in GURPS Robots. All these are being
>considered as I write my article.
Ooooh! right! Thermograph, and all those scanner packages...
Does anybody know why Thermograph never made it to CI? I thought it
was an excelent advantage, and a logical extension of Infravision.
>>Now: has anyone found, what "low-res" might cost?
>
>_Robots_ prices it as Bad Sight at -25. As a component of Faz Sense and Radar
>Sense its priced much more severely and inconsistently.
I think Faz sense and some of the other "esoteric senses" were priced
by the "arbitrary" method: pick a number that sounds right and go with
it. Not exactly a *bad* method, but I prefer basing things as much as
possible off of existing advantages/powers/etc to preserve internal
consistancy. For instance, stopping the DR/Extra HPS thing. But that
has be discussed to death in here, so *please* don't get it started
again!
Emily "Please!" Smirle
--
Emily Smirle <esm...@magma.ca> ICQ #33140104
Visit Sailor Squasher's Games Page
for GURPS, Quake 1&2, and more! http://www.magma.ca/~esmirle/
Kern
>
>Does anybody know why Thermograph never made it to CI? I thought it
>was an excelent advantage, and a logical extension of Infravision.
Thermograph? What is this?
If Bill Gates had a nickel for every time
Windows crashed... Oh wait, he does!
Phillip J. Welling
ICQ #: 2579862
dohman
Emily Smirle wrote:
> >> I've been trying to figure out how to price the ability to
> >>send out little "remote eyeballs" to scout areas. In any other system
> >>I'd base it on Clairvoyance, but the drastically reduced range in
> >>GURPS makes it a bit inconvenient.
>
> Actually, I'm thinking in terms of a supers game, where it's a
> power, not a gadget ie a super robot character, a super sorcerer,
> someone converted from Freak Legion, a character built using G:Undead.
> The "pull your own eyeball out and have it bounce/crawl around on
> its own" would be an interesting companion advantage to Independant
> Body Parts.
> This is really another way to do remote senses, and I guess it
> could be expanded on to be any remote sense whatsoever. I think the
> clairsentience rules really don't work for this sort of thing, and I
> *like* having an alternate way to do it.
>
> Emily "Damn. Sat on my eyeball." Smirle
> --
okay, i've never seen Independant Body Parts, but how about this: a sort of
telerecieve with the limitation "works only with own eyeballs". Or maybe it would
be Telecontrol, it depends on the Independant Body Parts thing- can it be
controlled or at least suggested to? (btw, does Ind. Body Parts give the Part
mobility?)
I know technically this shouldn't work since the eyeball doesn't have a mind,
but so? It's a game. if it's able to move around on it's own, then it ought to
have some cognizant ability. Perhaps in Psionics (which i dont have) theres a
similar TP power that works on animals, if so that should do the trick.
what do ya think?
dohman
keni...@my-dejanews.com
"Amber, Dan, Dare, or Julie" <delph...@geocities.com> wrote:
> Emily Smirle wrote:
> >
> > I've been trying to figure out how to price the ability to
> > send out little "remote eyeballs" to scout areas.
>
> Hm. I'd begin by assuming PCs have a 25-point advantage, Light
> Vision(based on a flip through CI). Next, I'd apply the Moveable
> Area(+40%) enhancement, plus a new limitation(-10%) which prevents its
> attachment to objects, plus a new enhancement(+10% per point of Move)
> which lets the area "walk", plus a new enhancement(+10%) which lets
you
> still use your original vision. This translates to a base +60% for
Move
> 2, or an advantage worth 15 points. Each percent of additional
> enhancements and limitations is worth a quarter of a point.
Wow, that's more complicated than anything that would have occurred
right off the top of my head- (Complexity is fun.) The only thing I
don't like about it is that this advantage will need a lot more
complicated enhancement/limitations to handle taking damage and so on.
I didn't notice this thread until just now, but oh well.
A winged eye might constitute a familiar, maybe.
I think I'd use the Duplicate advantage (with a telepathic link/shared
sense enhancement, if such a thing exists- I don't think that's the
default, though, but there might be such an enhancement in the familiar
rules in GURPS Magic) and a multiple form advantage with a limitation
that one dupe must retain the default/original form. The duplicate
would have the limitation that while it's in use, the user gains a
disadvantage and if the dupe is lost, the disadvantage remains until the
dupe is replaced. You'd probably have to ignore the point cost minimum
rule as well, since a floating/hopping eye probably isn't worth lots of
points. If it has a time limitation, the eye form might end up being
worth zero points.
If there isn't a telepathic link/shared sense type enhancement, one
might consider the shared consciousness/hive mind thing in the first
compendium. It might also allow avoiding having to get the duplicate
advantage which will make such a character much cheaper since a bunch of
wimpy body pieces might as well be an ally group.
>
> > Limitations might include a "transmi[ss]ion range"
>
> Hm. Perhaps an extra -25%(~ -6 points) gives a range limit of
10*HT
> hexes? Use Reduced Range from there.
>
> > or a sort of
> > batter[y]/time limit (robot runs out of fuel, eyeball dries out),
>
> I'd use Limited Use, which can treat an hour of an advantage
being on
> as one use.
>
> > low
> > resolution, etc.
> <snip>
>
[snip]
>
> - DARE, GURPSist extraordinaire and plenipotentiary
>
> * All typos in the previous message are to be considered edicts of
Eris.
> Please update your dictionaries accordingly.
> * Hi! I'm a .sig virus! Join the fun and copy me into yours! :)
> * Spammers looking for addresses? Try these: Betty...@co.ru,
> spen...@020.co.uk, Be...@shepfs1.und.ac.za Spam me and get your
> address here today!
>
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
JefWilson
writes:
>Ooooh! right! Thermograph, and all those scanner packages...
>
>Does anybody know why Thermograph never made it to CI? I thought it
>was an excelent advantage, and a logical extension of Infravision.
I'd guess it was because CI was in process while Robots was being finalized,
but that's guess. Certainly there are a number of things in Robots that I'd
like to have seen in CI.
Jeff Wilson
http://members.aol.com/JefWilson/rpg/
Emily Smirle
>>Ooooh! right! Thermograph, and all those scanner packages...
>>
>>Does anybody know why Thermograph never made it to CI? I thought it
>>was an excelent advantage, and a logical extension of Infravision.
>
>Thermograph? What is this?
From robots, hidden under sensor packages. What it is is the next step
in infra-red vision. The Infravision advantage is essentially
equivelent to what normal human sight would be if we could see the
heat radiated by objects.
Thermographic vision can also see *reflected* heat, and can
destinguish much smaller differences in temperature. According to
Robots, someone with Thermographic vision can even see the heat
radiated by people behind very thin walls (although this is a bit
cinematic).
IIRC, Thermographic vision is sensitive enough to be able to read
printed text with, as the ink changes the way heat is exchanged ont he
paper just enough. But dont' quote me on that...
>If Bill Gates had a nickel for every time
>Windows crashed... Oh wait, he does!
>
>Phillip J. Welling
>ICQ #: 2579862
--
Ryan Fisher
the EM spectrum. You see just like normal, except at different wavelengths.
Since there's lots of infrared radiation at night it makes it possible to
(usually) see in the dark, ala Terminator.
Thermographic vision is where you actually see variations in the heat
emitted by objects, ala Predator, or Robocop
There is a HUGE difference in these two types of vision and one is not
necessarily better than the other. Generally though, thermograph is more
useful, but more low-res than infrared.
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+
Ryan Fisher (ryanf...@skipthis-earthlink.net)
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+
Emily Smirle wrote in message <3743813c...@news.magma.ca>...
JefWilson
<lo...@the.sig> writes:
>From my experience, infravision is ability to see in the infrared region of
>the EM spectrum. You see just like normal, except at different wavelengths.
>Since there's lots of infrared radiation at night it makes it possible to
>(usually) see in the dark, ala Terminator.
>
>Thermographic vision is where you actually see variations in the heat
>emitted by objects, ala Predator, or Robocop
>
>There is a HUGE difference in these two types of vision and one is not
>necessarily better than the other. Generally though, thermograph is more
>useful, but more low-res than infrared.
From this almost sounds like Thermographic Vision is Infrared Vision with the
ability to see colors of Infrared.
Jeff Wilson
http://members.aol.com/JefWilson/rpg/
MA Lloyd
>On 18 May 1999 21:39:15 GMT, JefWilson giggled:
>
>I think Faz sense and some of the other "esoteric senses" were priced
>by the "arbitrary" method: pick a number that sounds right and go with
>it. Not exactly a *bad* method, but I prefer basing things as much as
>possible off of existing advantages/powers/etc to preserve internal
>consistancy.
I'm certain they were arbitrary. I've thought about a system of
pricing senses, mostly for the voodoo expansion I work on periodically,
which while it retains an arbitrary element is a bit more consistent,
and can be made to give results close to many of the existing advantages
by suitable selection of the base sense cost.
Hope it converts formats legibly:
Senses[specify] varies
Senses are methods through which the character obtains information about the environment.
The base cost of a sense depends on how common and how informative the signals it detects are. Because of the way ranges work, the base cost is also the level cost for Acute [sense].
The effective range of a sense is the distance at which it will detect a human scale target on an Alertness roll. Multiply the base cost by the modifier for that distance from the Speed/Range Table +5, or see the following table. For comparison purposes, human vision has a 100 hex range, hearing 10 hexes, and smell about 1 hex.
Sensory Range Table
Range Multiple Range Multiple Range Multiple
Touch 2 3 6 100 15
C (under 1 hex) 2 4.5 7 300 18
1 3 7 8 1000 21
1.5 4 10 9 1 mi 23
2 5 30 12 3 mi 32
Standard senses localize a signal source anywhere in range within inches, good enough to aim a weapon at it. Lesser abilities are treated as limitations:
Limited Arc (-33%): The sense doesn't cover the entire sphere around you at once, it has blind arcs. Human vision has this limitation.
No Targeting (-33%): The sense provides the general position of the source, but is not accurate enough to allow aiming. Human hearing has this limitation.
Non-local (-67%): The sense provides almost no directional or range information at all, the best you can usually do is to know the source is around here somewhere. The human sense of smell has this limitation.
Sensory abilities in GURPS have traditionally been priced arbitrarily, which makes it difficult to compare them, but these base costs are close to the more common senses: Vision or equivalent (no color) (4), Color Vision (5), 'Dark' Vision (independent of light source) (8), 'Active' Vision (Radar, sonar etc. independent of light, but you emit something) (6), Hearing (3), Broad Spectrum Hearing (4).
Senses that don't seem to important to humans are harder to price. I think Smell/Taste (5) is about right. Some species have significant ranges and the No Targeting limitation, though that may be the limit, since odors are somewhat more vulnerable to atmospheric distortions than sound, and certainly more than light. For Touch (including pressure, pain, warmth and vibration, humans have it at mixed Touch/C range)(3), Sensitive Touch (5).
Inner Sight (10) is the common psi ability to see anything in range, ignoring light or obstructions, and examine it close up from any angle, including from the inside. It is equivalent to Sense of Perception (CI p00), but that sense is severely under-priced. Magicians sometimes have it at ranges of a few hexes.
-- MA Lloyd (mall...@io.com)
Amber, Dan, Dare, or Julie
>
> In article <3741F9...@geocities.com>,
> "Amber, Dan, Dare, or Julie" <delph...@geocities.com> wrote:
> > Emily Smirle wrote:
> > >
> > > I've been trying to figure out how to price the ability to
> > > send out little "remote eyeballs" to scout areas.
> > <snip>
> >
> > Hm. I'd
>
> Wow, that's more complicated than anything that would have occurred
> right off the top of my head- (Complexity is fun.) The only thing I
> don't like about it is that this advantage will need a lot more
> complicated enhancement/limitations to handle taking damage and so on.
Gadget rules? That's what the [1% = 1/4 point] bit was about.
> I didn't notice this thread until just now, but oh well.
>
> A winged eye might constitute a familiar, maybe.
Or full Flight for an insect.
> I think I'd use the Duplicate advantage (with
<snip snip>
Wow, you weren't kidding about that complexity thing! :)
> If there isn't a telepathic link/shared sense type enhancement, one
> might consider the shared consciousness/hive mind thing in the first
> compendium. It might also allow avoiding having to get the duplicate
> advantage which will make such a character much cheaper since a bunch of
> wimpy body pieces might as well be an ally group.
Hm, now Mindshare may be better for familiars...
- DARE, GURPSist extraordinaire and plenipotentiary
* If their really is a God... It has a lot of explaining to do!
* Hi! I'm a .sig virus! Join the fun and copy me into yours! :)
* Spammers looking for addresses? Try these: spen...@020.co.uk,
Betty...@co.ru, Be...@shepfs1.und.ac.za Spam me and get your address
here today!
Ryan Fisher
light spectrum (usually called the infrared region). You are still seeing
EXACTLY as you do with your eyes, but in a lower (and to humans mostly
undetectable) range of the spectrum. Colors don't come throught because
colors are reflected light and objects reflect differently in the infrared
region. Seeing something in infrared will NOT tell you how hot it is.
Thermographic vision actually sees heat emmissions. The "colors" are
computer interpretations that tell you how hot/cold something is. Generally
dark is cooler, brighter is hotter. The military optics I've worked with
are black and white thermographs. Except NVG's which are infrared.
anyway, thats my experience.
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+
Ryan Fisher (ryanf...@skipthis-earthlink.net)
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+
JefWilson wrote in message <19990521035950...@ngol04.aol.com>...
Amber, Dan, Dare, or Julie
>
> Infrared has nothing to do with heat. It is vision in a lower part of the
> Thermographic vision actually sees heat emmissions. <snip>
So "infrared" lets you see NIR, and "thermograph" lets you see regular
infrared?
How confusing.
- DARE, GURPSist extraordinaire and plenipotentiary
* Why do they put Braille dots on the keypad of the drive-up ATM?
Franz & Michael Köttl
7ibtot$j7f$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Infrared has nothing to do with heat. It is vision in a lower part of the
> light spectrum (usually called the infrared region).
Infrared is heat. Each body emits radiation depending on its temperature. We
humans (36°C / 97°F) emit low frequency infrared. Bodys with 500°C/930°F
start glowing red, 1200°C/2200°F appears as yellow and the surface of the
sun (5000°C/9000°F) looks pure white. Even at this temperature there is a
wide band of radiation ranging from infrared to ultraviolet, which _appears_
white because of the distribution of frequencies. If you raise temperature
even more, the maximum of radiation will shift out of the visible area into
ultraviolet, X-Rays and finally Gamma-rays.
> You are still seeing
> EXACTLY as you do with your eyes, but in a lower (and to humans mostly
> undetectable) range of the spectrum. Colors don't come throught because
> colors are reflected light and objects reflect differently in the infrared
> region.
You see colors, because you have three different type of cells in your eye,
which react to red, green and blue light respectively. The brain
superimposes the three different pictures to one colored picture. Bees have
one more type of cell, wich react to UV. To them most white flowers appear
in different colors depending on the amount and frequency of reflected UV.
If you had one or more type of cells reacting to IR, you would see these as
colors, too.
> Seeing something in infrared will NOT tell you how hot it is.
The brightness and percieved color would tell the temperature, the same way
a smith can tell the temperature of iron, depending whether it glows
dark-red, bright red, orange or yellow. The emissions of lower temperatures
are not perceived by the eye, but if you would see them, you could tell the
temperature.
To the eye the difference between reflected light and emitted light is the
"glow". Yellow paper (reflected) doesn't glow. A yellow light-bulb
(emission) glows. The same would hold true for IR.
The difference between IR-Vision and Thermographic Vision reflects current
electonic systems, but not how the eye of a living being would see.
--
Ryan Fisher
Franz & Michael Köttl wrote in message <927664871.198823@news-backup>...
>Ryan Fisher <lo...@the.sig> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
>7ibtot$j7f$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>> Infrared has nothing to do with heat. It is vision in a lower part of
the
>> light spectrum (usually called the infrared region).
<snip>
>The difference between IR-Vision and Thermographic Vision reflects current
>electonic systems, but not how the eye of a living being would see.
>
>--
>Just some ideas.
>Michael Köttl
I should have clarified that I *was* talking about current electronic
systems and their differences.
However, that said, perhaps we should distinguish between "IR-Vision" and
"Thermographic" this way:
IR-Vision uses predominately reflected light, in the NIR region of the
spectrum.
Thermographic uses emitted energy that actually portrays the heat emanating
from an object.
They ARE completely different types of sight. At least in current military
equipment.
With NVGs (Night Vision Goggles) you see in the (N)IR region (they are also
light amplifiers, their main function). The AN/PVS-7B sights have a built
in IR "flashlight" that you can use to illuminate an area if there is not
enough ambient light (IR) for the goggles to show much detail. They DON'T
allow you to sense "heat". By that I mean the difference in heat signatures
of different objects. We also use IR chemlights to shed light in IR range
for use with NVGs, mostly to mark landing sights for helicopters. The point
of all the IR is that, similar to very low or high pitched notes, humans
can't detect it unaided. I use NVGs ALOT so this is from experience.
The thermograph sights, the only one of which I have looked through is a TOW
launcher sight, show the heat signatures being emitted from different
objects. "Hotter" objects "glow" with respect to their background.
The problem is that it is all relative. If something is the same temp as
it's background, then it is effectively undetectable. With NVGs whether you
are the same temp as your background or not has NO effect whatsoever. If
there is enough ambient IR I WILL SEE YOU. Just like you were sitting in
moonlight.
But, and I've *seen* this, if it's a moderately cold night and you are
laying on the ground freezing your but off trying to hide, your clothes and
gear will eventually cool down to the point where you are emitting very
little heat. If you've laying down long enough, the guys with the
thermographic sight won't see you even if you're out in the open. (depends
on the ability of his sight to detect smaller temp changes of course).
Anyway.... that's how I play the sights in CyberPunk
Amber, Dan, Dare, or Julie
>
> The difference between IR-Vision and Thermographic Vision reflects current
> electonic systems, but not how the eye of a living being would see.
Actually, there are living beings that see NIR(the Infrared Vision ADS)
and living beings that see regular IR(Thermograph), the names are just
really confusing. Hm, NIR vision and Dark Vision are really similar...
- DARE, GURPSist extraordinaire and plenipotentiary
* If God took acid, would He see people?
Franz & Michael Köttl
Another idea:
If we lign up the portions of the spectrum, it looks like this:
microwave
Far IR
Near IR
Visible
Near UV
Far UV
X-Ray
The hotter an object is, the farther down the peak would be. Most objects
have temperatures between 0 and 36°C (32 - 97°F), which may vary on a winter
day. So they emit radiation mostly in the Far IR and microwave range.
From your experience with current electronic gear, I would suggest, that
"IR-Vision" sees near IR, which is not normally available (except from
engines, flares etc.), while Thermographic sees Far IR, so makes visible the
temperature of most objects.
The IR-chemlights and IR-flashlights have their temperatures adjusted in a
way, to emit in near IR but shed no visible light. A signal flare or a
normal flashlight are hotter and emit mostly visible light, but should give
a weak signature in Near IR.
The process used in UV-lamps (e.g. solarium) is hotter still, and emits
mostly Near UV, but has a weak signature in the visible.
Xplo Eristotle
>
> On Mon, 24 May 1999 09:12:13 -0700, Ryan Fisher giggled:
>
> >Infrared has nothing to do with heat. It is vision in a lower part of the
> >EXACTLY as you do with your eyes, but in a lower (and to humans mostly
> >undetectable) range of the spectrum. Colors don't come throught because
> >colors are reflected light and objects reflect differently in the infrared
>
> Um, hokay, the infrared portion of the light spectrum *IS* heat, from
> what I understand. There's the near infrared (which is closer to red)
> and the far infrared (which is, duh, farther from red. Farther down,
> if you like).
Er, I don't think so. The way I understand it, heat is heat. It's the stuff
that burns your finger when you touch a hot piece of metal. (Probably has
something to do with molecular motion or electron levels or one of those
things.. I don't remember.) However, hot things radiate infrared the same way
that really hot things (eg, light bulb filaments) radiate visible light
> >Thermographic vision actually sees heat emmissions. The "colors" are
> >computer interpretations that tell you how hot/cold something is. Generally
> >dark is cooler, brighter is hotter. The military optics I've worked with
> >are black and white thermographs. Except NVG's which are infrared.
>
> ie, you get better discrimination within the infrared spectrum.
The way he describes it, I think that it's the difference between seeing
something because it reflects light and seeing something because it's actually
glowing. Which would seem to indicate that infrared images would actually be
easier to interpret under the right conditions, since cast shadows and things
would resolve better than glowing blobs in dark places.
Yes? No?
___________________________
/ \
/ Xplo "Endymion" Eristotle \
\ http://start.at/xplosion/ /
\___________________________/
Emily Smirle
>Infrared has nothing to do with heat. It is vision in a lower part of the
>light spectrum (usually called the infrared region). You are still seeing
>EXACTLY as you do with your eyes, but in a lower (and to humans mostly
>undetectable) range of the spectrum. Colors don't come throught because
>colors are reflected light and objects reflect differently in the infrared
>region. Seeing something in infrared will NOT tell you how hot it is.
Um, hokay, the infrared portion of the light spectrum *IS* heat, from
what I understand. There's the near infrared (which is closer to red)
and the far infrared (which is, duh, farther from red. Farther down,
if you like).
The part of the spectrum below the visual spectrum goes through heat,
and further down to stuff like radio. If you go up from violet you get
ultra-violet and then i forget what else.
>Thermographic vision actually sees heat emmissions. The "colors" are
>computer interpretations that tell you how hot/cold something is. Generally
>dark is cooler, brighter is hotter. The military optics I've worked with
>are black and white thermographs. Except NVG's which are infrared.
ie, you get better discrimination within the infrared spectrum.
>anyway, thats my experience.
are you someone qualified, because I'm *not*. I'm fuzzy and
remembering bits of physics class and that 2 week course i mentioned.
Hey, we've got physics people on here...
John? Kromm? anybody?
Emily "I'm confuzzed." Smirle
John Rowat
> On Mon, 24 May 1999 09:12:13 -0700, Ryan Fisher giggled:
>>Infrared has nothing to do with heat. It is vision in a lower part of the
>>light spectrum (usually called the infrared region). You are still seeing
>>EXACTLY as you do with your eyes, but in a lower (and to humans mostly
>>undetectable) range of the spectrum. Colors don't come throught because
>>colors are reflected light and objects reflect differently in the infrared
>>region. Seeing something in infrared will NOT tell you how hot it is.
> Um, hokay, the infrared portion of the light spectrum *IS* heat, from
> what I understand. There's the near infrared (which is closer to red)
> and the far infrared (which is, duh, farther from red. Farther down,
> if you like).
Not IS heat, but hot objects radiate in the infrared range. Similarly,
the molecules of an object receiving infrared light begin to vibrate, and
it becomes hot.
> The part of the spectrum below the visual spectrum goes through heat,
> and further down to stuff like radio. If you go up from violet you get
> ultra-violet and then i forget what else.
x-ray, gamma ray, etc. All the good stuff is up there.
>>Thermographic vision actually sees heat emmissions. The "colors" are
>>computer interpretations that tell you how hot/cold something is. Generally
>>dark is cooler, brighter is hotter. The military optics I've worked with
>>are black and white thermographs. Except NVG's which are infrared.
> ie, you get better discrimination within the infrared spectrum.
They're both IR. A thermograph shows you the heat directly, adjusted to
colour and intensity based on magnitude and frequency of the incoming IR
light. Night Vision goggles take IR and ambient light, amplify, and
interpret it in the visual spectrum.
> Hey, we've got physics people on here...
> John? Kromm? anybody?
Wrong John, I'm sure, but does an EE in training count as qualified?
-John
--
"Enchained to a shadow of the past / He walks the paths of life
Carrying that old story like a cross / On which he will,
On which he may nail another star."
-Samael, "Moonskin"
Emily Smirle
>Emily Smirle screamed agonizingly:
>> On Mon, 24 May 1999 09:12:13 -0700, Ryan Fisher giggled:
>
>>>Infrared has nothing to do with heat. It is vision in a lower part of the
>>>light spectrum (usually called the infrared region). You are still seeing
>>>EXACTLY as you do with your eyes, but in a lower (and to humans mostly
>>>undetectable) range of the spectrum. Colors don't come throught because
>>>colors are reflected light and objects reflect differently in the infrared
>>>region. Seeing something in infrared will NOT tell you how hot it is.
>
>> Um, hokay, the infrared portion of the light spectrum *IS* heat, from
>> what I understand. There's the near infrared (which is closer to red)
>> and the far infrared (which is, duh, farther from red. Farther down,
>> if you like).
>
>Not IS heat, but hot objects radiate in the infrared range. Similarly,
>the molecules of an object receiving infrared light begin to vibrate, and
>it becomes hot.
Hmm... but infrared does tell you how hot the object is. Right. That
expains somethings. I know rattlesnakes can "see" a little infrared,
and it was explained to me that they target moving warm bodies...
>> The part of the spectrum below the visual spectrum goes through heat,
>> and further down to stuff like radio. If you go up from violet you get
>> ultra-violet and then i forget what else.
>
>x-ray, gamma ray, etc. All the good stuff is up there.
Wheeee! Where are microwaves? above or below visual?
>>>Thermographic vision actually sees heat emmissions. The "colors" are
>>>computer interpretations that tell you how hot/cold something is. Generally
>>>dark is cooler, brighter is hotter. The military optics I've worked with
>>>are black and white thermographs. Except NVG's which are infrared.
>
>> ie, you get better discrimination within the infrared spectrum.
>
>They're both IR. A thermograph shows you the heat directly, adjusted to
>colour and intensity based on magnitude and frequency of the incoming IR
>light. Night Vision goggles take IR and ambient light, amplify, and
>interpret it in the visual spectrum.
Ambiant IR bouncing off of stuf, or IR radiating out of stuff?
Inquring minds want to know...
>> Hey, we've got physics people on here...
>> John? Kromm? anybody?
>
>Wrong John, I'm sure, but does an EE in training count as qualified?
A heck of a lot more qualified then I am, thats for sure. The last
time I actually covered physics in an academic setting was in grade 10
science class. Well, and a little in Algebra-Geometry (shudder), but
that was all gravity and motion, so it doesn't count.
Well, dragging the conversation kicking and screaming back to GURPS,
from the description I would say that infravision *is* seeing emitted
heat, and the fact that infravision can be blinded by bright heat
flashes does bear that out IMO. Can those IR night vision goggles be
blinded by a heat source?
Emily "Don't ask me, I'm really social science major." Smirle
Kitarak
writes:
>Wheeee! Where are microwaves? above or below visual?
Below I believe...
Yup. Just checked my dictionary of physics. They come between radio and
infra-red, and overlap with radio. As radio waves can have wavelengths of
several meters...
--------------------------------------
Kitarak
Get rid of Spam to E-mail me.
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
>>the molecules of an object receiving infrared light begin to vibrate, and
>>it becomes hot.
>
>Hmm... but infrared does tell you how hot the object is. Right. That
>expains somethings. I know rattlesnakes can "see" a little infrared,
>and it was explained to me that they target moving warm bodies...
Yar, well, if an object gets hotter, it radiates more and more power in
the form of photons which are distributed thus and such in wavelength,
and the mean wavelength of those photons also gets shorter as the
temperature increases. If something gets hot enough it begins radiating
in *visible* light, first appearing red and then going on towards white and
possibly past it into blue (as more of the photons go *below* visible
wavelengths into ultraviolet) if it gets even hotter. This is what flames
do, after all (and light bulbs, molten metals, the sun, etc). If you have
an IR sensor (or vision) that can distinguish between different IR
wavelengths and feed you something like composite colour based on that,
then you can use IR to estimate temperature (or to measure temperature
pretty accurately, if your equipstuff is good enough). If you're stuck
with only sensing IR light as monochrome, though, you can't really "see"
an object's temperature (if you want to calculate it you'd need to know
the intensity of the IR light you're seeing *and* the object's size and
the distance between it and you). In fact we can already learn to estimate
the temperature of visibly glowing objects by their colour, but it's not
much use in the daily life of most people since all of them are "far too
hot to touch" anyway.
--
Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y |"What am I without your tender touch -
www.pvv.org/~leifmk| your gentle hands to guide me,
Math geek and gamer| what purpose has a puppet
GURPS, Harn, CORPS | with no puppeteer beside me?" (Skyclad)