Got a response from Chick Publishing about Dark Dungeons
Scott Thomlinson
booklet. Just thought I'ld share their response to me.
Dear Scott Thomlinson,
Thank you for your message regarding the information on the seemingly
innocent game, "Dungeons and Dragons", available on our website!
We are sorry that you disagree with our content. Our goal is to present
information that can help people discover the joy that we have found in
serving Jesus Christ, and to answer as many questions as possible. Our
authors work long and hard researching their subjects before writing, and
give you their best. Please read the following message from William
Schnoebelen (Ex-Wiccan High Priest).
STRAIGHT TALK ON DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS
By William Schnoebelen
Dungeons and Dragons is a tragic and tangled subject. It is essentially a
feeding program for occultism and witchcraft. For Christians, the first
scriptural problem is the fact that Dungeons and Dragons violates the
commandment of 1Ths. 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." Much of the
trappings, art, figurines, and writing within D&D certainly appears evil-to
say the least of it.
On top of that, the second issue is that the materials themselves, in many
cases, contain authentic magical rituals. I can tell you this from my own
experience. I was a witch high priest (Alexandrian tradition) during the
period 1973-84. During some of that period (1976-80) I was also involved in
hardcore Satanism. We studied and practiced and trained more than 175 people
in the Craft. Our "covendom" was in Milwaukee, Wisconsin; just a short drive
away from the world headquarters of TSR, the company which makes Dungeons
and Dragons in Lake Geneva, WI. In the late 1970's, a couple of the game
writers actually came to my wife and I as prominent "sorcerers" in the
community. They wanted to make certain the rituals were authentic. For the
most part, they are.
These two guys sat in our living room and took copious notes from us on how
to make sure the rituals were truly right "from the book," (this meaning
that they actually came from magic grimoires or workbooks). They seemed
satisfied with what they got and left us thankfully.
Back in 1986, a fellow appeared on The 700 Club who was a former employee
and game writer for TSR. He testified right on the show that he got into a
wrangle with the management there because he saw that the rituals were too
authentic and could be dangerous. He protested to his boss and was basically
told that this was the intent-to make the games as real as possible. He felt
conscience-stricken (even though he was not a Christian at the time), and
felt he had to resign from the company.
Now, the question becomes-if a person "innocently" works an authentic ritual
that conjures up a demon, or curses someone; thinking that they are only
playing a game-might not the ritual still have efficacy? I think we know the
answer to that question. If you play at shooting your friend in the head
with what you think is an unloaded pistol and don't know a shell is in the
chamber, is your friend any less dead because you were playing?
People need to understand that God's universe runs on laws no less real in
the spiritual realm than the laws of physics that propel a bullet out of a
gun-and those laws are just as irreversible. God says that if you tamper
with magic and the occult, you are stepping out from under His will and His
protection (assuming you are a Christian). If you are not a Christian, then
you are REALLY playing with fire. Some verses which clearly teach this are
found in Exod. 22:18, Lev. 19:31, Lev. 20:6, Deut. 18:10, 1Sam. 15:23, 2Kgs.
21:6, Is. 8:19, Gal. 5:20, Rev. 21:8, Rev. 22:15.
Deadly Games?
To quote an old proverb, "Though the boys throw stones at the frogs in
sport, the frogs die in earnest." Just because the people playing D&D think
they are playing a game doesn't mean that the evil spirits (who ARE very
real) will regard it as a game. If you are doing rituals or saying spells
that invite them into your life, then they will come-believe me! We have
prayed with enough people our age and younger who were former D&D fans, and
they were totally in bondage to it.
This brings us to other unsavory aspects of the game. One pro-D&D
psychologist wrote that "There is hardly a game in which the players do not
indulge in murder, arson, torture, rape or highway robbery."1 In fact, the
Dungeon Master's Guide gives the celebrated Adolph Hitler as an example of a
real historical person that exhibited D&D charisma! The values contained in
the game are, at the very best, "might makes right."
Additionally, much of the game contains overtones that reek of illicit sex
and sexual violence. For example, the cover of one D&D supplement, called
Eldrich Wizardry, shows a naked woman reclining on an obviously satanic
ritual altar. This tragic scene is compelling because it is really what is
done in genuine satanic groups all over the nation.2 It is extremely
sado-masochistic because the fate of such a woman is to be either raped,
gang-raped, tortured or sacrificed to a demon god. This kind of imagery can
be very provocative and seductive to adolescent males or even adults.
Additionally, male characters in the game often try to seduce female
characters; and references abound to things like venereal disease and
satyriasis (a male condition of permanent sexual arousal). Can these sorts
of things be appropriate for Christians or even for any decent person of
whatever faith?
Do-It-Yourself Brainwashing
Additionally, Fantasy-Role-Playing (FRP) games like D&D do employ
brainwashing techniques:
1) Fear generation-via spells and mental imaging about fear-filled,
emotional scenes, and threats to survival of FRP characters.
2) Isolation-psychological removal from traditional support structures
(family, church, etc.) into an imaginary world. Physical isolation due to
extremely time-consuming play activities outside the family atmosphere.
3) Physical torture and killings-images in the mind can be almost as real as
the actual experiences. Focus of the games is upon killings and torture for
power, acquisition of wealth, and survival of characters.
4) Erosion of family values-the Dungeon Master (DM) demands an
all-encompassing and total loyalty, control and allegiance.
5) Situational Ethics-any act can be justified in the mind of the player,
therefore there are no absolutes of right or wrong; no morality other than
"point" morality needed to ensure survival and advancement. There are no
win-win situations and good forces seldom triumph over evil forces.
6) Religion-values and belief systems (see below) are restructured from
traditional Judeo-Christian ethics (which most people in Western culture
adhere to) to belief in multiple gods and deities. Players align themselves
with specific deities they select; patron deities are strongly urged. These
are not fantasy deities, but are drawn from genuine ancient religions and
beliefs! Only occult gods are included. In addition, defilement is urged in
many ways, such as excrement or urinating to "defile a font."
7) Loss of Self-control-authority over self is surrendered to the DM.
Depending on the personality and ego-strength of the player, this loss can
be near absolute.
8) Degradation-pain and torture are heavily involved in sadistic, sexual
situations that graphically appeal to visceral impulses. Much of the
material (as mentioned above) is well into pornographic areas and stresses
the defilement of innocence.3
A Clash of World Views!
This is another, broader issue here. The values of the game are not only
pro-violence and death; they also entrain the player in an entirely
different way of looking at life: what is called by anthropologists the
"Magical World View(MWV)." This MWV is far outside the cultural norms of
most societies, and certainly outside the realms of Biblical values. Let me
explain:
1) The MWV teaches that there exists in the universe a neutral force, like
gravity, which is magic. In this worldview, there is no sovereign God; but
rather the universe is run like a gigantic piece of machinery. Magic's
application is the understanding of how to manipulate the universe to get
what you want. The analogy would be of putting a right coin in the slot of a
vending machine and pushing the button. You automatically get your
candy-assuming you used the right coin and pushed the right button. The MWV
is like that. If you know the right technology (spell, ritual, incantation,
etc.) the universe must respond-just like the light must go on if you flip
the switch. It is automatic, and scientifically repeatable.
2) The Judeo-Christian Worldview (i.e. from the Bible, and held by most
cultures in the Western world to some degree) teaches, on the contrary, that
the universe is in control of a sovereign Person, God. To get "results," He
must be asked. Thus, it is more like a child going up to a parent and asking
for candy, than getting it from a vending machine. The parent may say "yes,"
"no," or "Wait till later." Similarly, in the Bible, there is no way to
automatically manipulate God to get what you want, because He is an
omnipotent Person. Additionally, God says that magic is deep and abominable
sin (see above).
Now obviously, these two worldviews cannot exist in the same moral universe.
Either one is true and the other false or vice-versa. Thus, one cannot be a
Christian and believe in the MWV and not be some sort of hypocrite or
deceived person. The reason is that in the "universe" of Dungeons and
Dragons magic is neutral, and can be used by "good guys" or by "bad guys."
It is like "The Force" in the Star Wars movies. This magical morality
pervades D&D, and it is utterly in opposition to the Word of God and even
common sense.
Now the question becomes, can a person play the game without subscribing to
the worldview? It is possible, but considering the high level of emotional
and intellectual commitment that the game requires, is that really
realistic? D&D is not like chess or Monopoly. It is a game that engages the
whole person at deep levels, and it can last months if well-played. How can
a person, Christian or not, immerse themselves in a reality view so deeply
and not have it impact the rest of their lives? This is difficult to
imagine, especially considering the highly demonic and magical content of
much of the game. As the saying goes, "if you lie down with dogs, you get up
with fleas."
As the apostle Paul warns us, (1Cor. 15:33) "Be not deceived: evil
communications corrupt good manners." If games and manuals which extol black
magic, rape, sado-masochism, murder and violence are not "evil
communications," then I do not know the meaning of the terms!
A D&D "Hall of Shame"
This provides us with a spiritual explanation of why the following tragic
litany of evil keeps growing around players of Dungeons and Dragons. The
psychological explanation buttresses this as well, for we now understand the
D&D can readily be a form of mind-control which also uses real occult
techniques to foster possession by evil spirits.
1) The "Freeway Killer," Vernon Butts, who committed suicide in his cell in
1987 while being held as a suspect in a string of murders was an avid D&D
player.4
2) D&D player (14 years old) commits suicide by hanging, 1979, name withheld
by parents' request.
3) D&D player (17 years old) Michael Dempsey, Lynnwood, WA. suicide by
gunshot wound to the head, 5/19/81. Witnesses saw him trying to summon up
D&D demons just minutes before his death.
4) D&D player (? years old) Steve Loyacano, Castle Rock, CO., suicide by
carbon monoxide poisoning, 10/14/82. Police report satanic writings and a
suicide note liked the death to D&D.
5) D&D player (21 years old) Timothy Grice, Lafayette, CO., suicide by
shotgun blast, 1/17/83. Detective reports noted, "D&D became a reality. He
thought he was not constrained to this life, but could leave [it] and return
because of the game."
6) D&D player (18 years old) Harold T. Collins, Marion, OH., suicide by
hanging, 4/29/83. Collins was noted to be "possessed" by D&D as if he were
living the game.
7) D&D player (16 years old) Daniel Erwin, Lafayette, CO., murder by brother
's shotgun blast to head, 11/2/84 (right after Halloween). Death was
apparently the result of a death pact as part of the game.
8) D&D player (12 years old) Steve Erwin (see above) suicide by gunshot,
11/2/84. Detective report: "No doubt D&D cost them their lives."5
9) D&D player (no age given) Joseph Malin, Salt Lake City, UT., pled guilty
to first degree murder 3/2/88 and was sentenced to life in prison. He killed
a 13 years old girl while acting out the fantasy-role game. The girl had
been raped, her throat cut, and she had been stabbed twice in the chest.
Police said his "violent urges were fed by 'extreme involvement in the
fantasy role-playing game Dungeons and Dragons.'"6
10) D&D player (14 years old) Sean Sellers was convicted of killing his
parents and a convenience store clerk in Greeley, Oklahoma (1/11/87). He is
the youngest inmate of death row in the country as of this writing (22 now).
His involvement in hard-core Satanism began with D&D, according to his own
testimony. Praise the Lord, he is now a Born Again Christian!7
11) D&D player (14 years old) Tom Sullivan, Jr. got into Satanism and ended
up stabbing his mother to death, arranging a ritual circle (from D&D) in the
middle of the living room floor and lit a fire in its midst. Fortunately,
his dad and little brother were awakened by a smoke detector; but by then,
Tom, Jr. had slashed his wrists and throat with his Boy Scout knife and died
in the snow in a neighbor's yard.(1/19/88, Amarillo, TX.)8
Of course, just like everything else, some people (young or otherwise) will
say, "Those people were just weird or losers to begin with. I'm too together
to fall into stuff like that. It's just a game!" Yeah, and an H-bomb is just
a firecracker! Like the people who think they can play around with crack or
pre-marital sex and not get burned by death, AIDS or pregnancy, the person
who thinks they can mess with D&D without getting burnt is whistling in the
dark. The evidence is definitely stacked against them! The game is too
carefully crafted a trap for many people to elude.
Conclusions
Quoting Dr. Thomas Radecki MD, a psychiatrist at the University of Illinois
School of Medicine: "The evidence in these cases is really quite impressive.
There is no doubt in my mind that the game Dungeons and Dragons is causing
young men to kill themselves and others. The game is one of non-stop combat
and violence. It is clear to me that this game is desensitizing players to
violence and also causing an increased tendency to violent behavior."9
Thus, in my mind, and in the minds of most who have come out of this
background as I have (occultism and Satanism); there is no doubt that
Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell. No
Christian or sane, decent individual of whatever faith really should have
anything to do with them.
Endnotes
1 Peter Leithart & George Grant, A Christian Response to Dungeons and
Dragons, Dominion Press, Ft. Worth, TX. 1987, p.5.
2 Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible, Avon Books, 1969, p.135.
3 Pat Pulling, quoted in File 18 Newsletter, 10/24/86, from CCIN, 222 N.
Latah St. Boise, ID. 83706-2657, 208-336-9950.
4 Leithart & Grant, op. cit., p.5.
5 Statistics 2-8 courtesy of Yvonne Peterson, EXODUS S.A. Occult Awareness
Program, P.O. Box 700293, San Antonio, TX. 78270; 1987, p.9.
6 Salt Lake Tribune, 3/2/88.
7 File 18 Newsletter, op. cit., 2/22/87. Since this article was originally
written in 1989, it is now my belief that Sean Sellers was executed for his
crimes and is now (thanks to the mercy of Jesus and Sean's faith in Him) in
heaven.
8 cf. Amarillo Globe Times, 1/19/92
9 Peterson, ibid.
If you have any further questions, please contact William Schnoebelen at:
With One Accord
PO Box 457
Dubuque, IA 52004
Email: wit...@netins.net
Web Site: http://www.withoneaccord.org
May the Lord bless you as you diligently seek Him!
In Christ,
Sherry
Customer Service
Chick Publications, Inc.
E-mail address: postm...@chick.com
Mailing address: P.O. Box 3500, Ontario Calif 91761-1100
Website address: http://www.chick.com
Visit our newest tract, online, at:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1009/1009_01.asp
--
Scott Thomlinson
I give you the unforgettable - eh - em - who are you again?
--
Scott Thomlinson
I give you the unforgettable - eh - em - who are you again?
Hawkmoon269
This Chick Publishing is starting to remind me of a hate group. Read the
ones on Allah, Gays and Catholicism.
Scott Thomlinson <gasp...@jscomm.net> wrote in message
news:k6mp5.95$rJ4....@eagle.america.net...
Scott Thomlinson
Hawkmoon269 <mad...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:Ejmp5.1077$Ph4.4...@news.uswest.net...
> Damn, I just went looking through their site and reading some other
tracts.
> This Chick Publishing is starting to remind me of a hate group. Read the
> ones on Allah, Gays and Catholicism.
>
grown to understand that a god of love and mercy teaches us to turn the
other cheek not bash and throw stones. I've known many good christian role
players, I don't claim to be one in any conotation of those words. I'm a
work in progress, growing hopefully to fit that description.
Scott T.
Hawkmoon269
> tracts.
> > This Chick Publishing is starting to remind me of a hate group. Read the
> > ones on Allah, Gays and Catholicism.
> >
have
> grown to understand that a god of love and mercy teaches us to turn the
> other cheek not bash and throw stones. I've known many good christian
role
> players, I don't claim to be one in any conotation of those words. I'm a
> work in progress, growing hopefully to fit that description.
>
> Scott T.
>
>
Scott,
You broached a subject I have long though about but never delved into. I
have been playing since the early 80's, and was an avid christian growing
up. I was even ex-communicated from a church once when they found out I
played D&D.
Now I have become so disillusioned with organized religion I consider myself
an agnostic who firmly believes in God:) (And a hell of a contradiction that
may be).
Has anyone else gone through similiar experiences with religion and gaming?
After reading the Dark Dungeons booklet on the chick website, I can't
actually believe there are people that stupid as to write about a subject
thry have no knowledge on. I laughed so hard when I read it, then I
realized, they TRULY believe that nonsense.
I was raised by my grandmother, who was a very strong and conservative
christian. But she also got me into D&D when I was 10, by encouraging me to
get involved with a game that fueled my imagination and gave it focus. I
guess everything I lerned to temper is from her. I honestly cannot believe
that there are people out there still targeting this game. I never
experienced the mad mothers syndrome in the 80's, only heard about it.
So, maybe this has been broached before, it's not a "D&D is Evil, find God"
thread. Just curious of others experiences in this area. Are there any
players on this group that actively practice religion?
Just would like to hear some other viewpoints on the subject.
Paul
Scott Thomlinson
his new best friend was into the game. I joined because I felt threatened
by their relationship. Now the entire group is like a family to me.
I'm a Mormon and the groups resident Paladin was Mormon and a friend of mine
as well. He was getting ready to go on his mission and the single purpose
paladin mentality helped him focus.
Our DM was my best friend's new best friend's Dad. He was Air Force through
and through. He gave us ethical chalenges and tried to break us from
following into the hack and slash mentality. He set up the Paladin with an
evil twin. That kept him off his perch for about three sessions. How do you
escape from a town that wants to kill you if they are lawful good(well good)
and are trying to do what is right. The point is he tried to give us moral
delimias(sp) to strengthen our character.
So the religion thing never occurred as a conflict with our group. My Mom
defended my gaming to her church (She and Dad are not Mormon.) She even
listen to me rave about what had happened at the games. I think there can
be problem with anything that becomes an obssession (check my waistline if
you don't believe me.) but I was fortunate enouhg to learn the game from a
caring and truly good family.
Hawkmoon269
Jimmy Kerl <j...@icok.net> wrote in message news:39A607...@icok.net...
> Hawkmoon269 wrote:
>
> > So, maybe this has been broached before, it's not a "D&D is Evil, find
God"
> > thread. Just curious of others experiences in this area. Are there any
> > players on this group that actively practice religion?
> >
> > Just would like to hear some other viewpoints on the subject.
> >
> > Paul
>
>
> of those dangerous 1/2 wrong and 1/2 right things.
>
> I myself have ALWAYS detested the notion of real demon names and
> references to real-world (usually "dark") religions in d&d. And
> i strongly detest WOTC's recent action to re-include such names
> in 3e. However, on the other hand, withouth these elements i
> can find little wrong with d&d. Furthermore the large part of
> the reply in the original post (as others have pointed out) is
> basically biased nonsence.
>
> Some will agree and some will disagree with me (lets keep it friendly
please)
>
> But i also find it very difficult to express my viewpoint
> (with respect to the demon names and other references) because
> these are spirtual things and many d&d players are eithor
> agnostic or athiest and/or generally in disbelif of such things.
> Thus while i definitally believe that these things are both
> real and VERY dangerous; i see no way to communicate this
> idea to those who have not had much experience in spiritual things.
>
> All in all, the chick track people really ought to shut up until
> they can learn to do some unbiased analysis of their findings, because
> the 1/2 of their stuff that is so narrow minded really discredits the
> ligitmate issues that they do have to bring up. Issues which aren't
eaisly
> or quickley accepted by intelligent people who have no personal
familuarity
> with such things.
>
> (Ok im thinking i really need a suit of full plate +5,
> & a ring of flame resistance about now!)
No, I think this was a very well thought out post. Actually in my old 2e
Realms campaign, I actually took a bit of a historical bent on the subject
of religion. You see, there is a "One all powerful" being mentioned
throughout realms lore, Ao IIRC. It was interesting to make a deity that
gave the priest class a very different bend from the normal D&D perception
of the class.
You know, when using religion as a basis for that campiagn, it was the
darkest, most eerie campaign that I had ever run. Kind of like a "Name of
the Rose" campaign:).
I have noticed that you can do a lot of things with a historically based
campaign as well. Although players tend to get swayed away from it at first,
a good DM can make medieval france just as interesting as the Realms.
Ecspecially when you use the darker moments of Catholicism and Christianity
as plot hooks.
I have no problem with the name thing for Demons/ Devils. As they are always
adversaries (I never have run a campiagn with evil chracters before, but it
might be interesting down the road of done right), and bring the ultimate
face of evil into a campaign.
One RPG book I would recommend any D&D player to pick up is Cell
Entertainments Gemini RPG. Very dark and rooted in religious excess and
ultimate salvation, it is the most adult oriented and well written RPG world
I have come across. The system itself is average IMHO, but it would make a
great port, with a little work, into a very nice D&D campaign world.
Religion has become for me the epitomy of all the is good and bad within the
world. The laws of god cannot always be faithfully taught by men. But in a
way, it is the ultimate lure for a very good campaign. It can instill real
fear to enter a monastery burdened by dark secrets for the PC's, and rooting
that in a real world religious setting can be a lot more frightening and
real for players then, say, a temple of Bane in the Moonshaes.
As for the context of religion via D&D as a whole, well I never have my Mage
PC's go through an actual motion physically of casting spells, nor have my
priest PC's physically utter prayers to their gods. I have seen some
campaigns where this was done, and it was a bit of a turn off for me.
I myself an interested in a very dark, gothic and apocalyptic setting. And
as a christian, I feel that I do no dis-service to my beliefs by being a
story teller and bringing others in for the ride. Hey, even Tolkein was a
christian after all, and so was C.S. Lewis. But would you bring the
"Screwtape Letters" to church:)?
Some of the best fantasy writers of our time have had strong beliefs in God.
I only feel myself, and all of us, are following a legacy that they began.
We pay homage to their creativity every time we sit down to play. And if the
Lord of the Rings and The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe weren't divine
inspiration, I then truly don't know what divine inspiration is;)
Paul
>
> But i'll go on playing d&d without the demons, devils, and whatever
> other references to "dark" religions that i recognize for now.
>
> Jimmy
>
> --
Deirdre M. Brooks
Hawkmoon269 wrote:
>
> Damn, I just went looking through their site and reading some other tracts.
> This Chick Publishing is starting to remind me of a hate group. Read the
> ones on Allah, Gays and Catholicism.
They are a hate group, but often unintentionally funny.
--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Cadillac Jones
took place in America since 1975 having the remotest connection with
D&D what are they complaining about? I personally know a lot more
lives that were ruined via religion than D&D. I'm sure that if you
read every suicide note out there God and Jesus would be mentioned a
lot more than Gary Gygax.
When the great role calls comes down I have a feeling that playing D&D
won't be judged to harshly...
"This is everybody's fault but mine"
Denakhan the Arch-Mage
^_^
Denakhan the Arch-Mage
D&D'er for 20 years (I guess I should have killed myself about a dozen times
and have a murder tally of around 217....;-)
Jimmy Kerl
But i'll go on playing d&d without the demons, devils, and whatever
The Atheist
impose my beliefs on others because I feel it is not my place to push my
belief on the subjects of God, and Religion on others. Call it a being kind
to others because I would wish the same of them.
I've been playing since I was 8 now I'm 23 and like I said before My aunt
has had it out with me many times. She is a devout Christian, and everytime
she sees me she asks me if I'm still playing that 'Devil's game' she tells
me she's praying for me everyday to give the game up and see the 'true
light'.
Just two weeks ago all hell broke loose when she found out her own son had
been playing behind her back with a group of his friends. Right now as we
speak, she is going to send him to a private school three towns away at a
large cost, just to get him away from his friends.
I can understand people having their beliefs about a game but how many of
these people have actually sat down and even read any of the books? Played a
single game? or Even just sat down and watched someone play, that's where my
problem lies. My cousin can watch all the TV she wants, to include any kinds
of movies that are on TV, he's 15 and has seen American Pie like twelve
times. But that's okay who my next question is how is okay to watch
violence, sexually material, and low brow comedy stuff but not to play a
game that can actually lead to the use of the imagination, and actually help
develop more deep thinking?
Anyway sorry this is more of a rambling post then anything else.
--
Oh BTW I'm rewriting the Bible as we speak, I find God is getting a little
old it's time for a Make Over, bring in the leather and the Mohawk God has
gone Punk.
Me, 2000
All men strive to be god only when they find he doesn't exist do they strive
to be human.
Some-1994
I think you should have a tribute to me in your Signature file Derrick.
Christine My Girlfriend 2000
Me fail English that's Unpossible
Ralph --The Simpsons
Al Gore is no human, he definitely is a cyborg but not that kind of cool
cyborg you see in Terminator
Vermilion
>If hey can only find 11 instances of all the murders and suicides that
>took place in America since 1975 having the remotest connection with
>D&D what are they complaining about? I personally know a lot more
>lives that were ruined via religion than D&D. I'm sure that if you
>read every suicide note out there God and Jesus would be mentioned a
>lot more than Gary Gygax.
And aren't all the listed ones from before 2nd Edition, the kinder, gentler
AD&D? Maybe it was just 1E that was bad ;)
Jeremy Fox
: I'm a Mormon and the groups resident Paladin was Mormon and a friend of mine
: as well. He was getting ready to go on his mission and the single purpose
: paladin mentality helped him focus.
I don't know if working out real world issues in a roleplaying game is
the best way to go through life. It might have worked for your friend,
but in general this strikes me as one step on the road towards
trouble.
--
------------------------
Jeremy T. Fox
Economics Grad Student
jer...@stanford.edu
BlakGard
>find God" thread. Just curious of others experiences in this area.
>Are there any players on this group that actively practice religion?
Yes, but it is hardly relevant... I'm Buddhist.
However, my uncle, who is basically a non-practicing fundie, tells me all of
the time how D&D will, if I let it, "open up doors that lead only to Satan."
Then again, he also thinks that Buddhists are devil-worshippers.
Other than him, I have never known or met another person who had a real problem
with D&D. Back in the 70s, my mom was curious about the game, after hearing all
the bad press, but after a single sit-in during one of our sessions, she was
relieved to know that all of the bad press was, indeed, unfounded.
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
Anivair
(mostly about "real magic" which i happen to have studied in depth and which he
happned to be wrong about consistantly.
Though my favorite was the bit about the spells being real. I got some guano
and sulphur tonight, but no matter how many times i pointed my finger, nothing
happned.
--
later,
~Anivair
Ani...@aol.com
Halaster Blackcloak
"Scott Thomlinson" <gasp...@jscomm.net> wrote:
>I sent an email to Chick Publishing about their "Dark Dungeons" tract
booklet. Just thought I'ld share their response to me<
Uh oh. Get ready for a rant. I just LOVE those Jack Chick idiots. ;-)
>We are sorry that you disagree with our content. Our goal is to
present information that can help people discover the joy that we have
found in serving Jesus Christ, and to answer as many questions as
possible.<
Oh? I thought their goal was to forcibly censor and convert the entire
world to their particularly shortsighted, ignorant brand of fanaticism?
Guess they've mellowed over the years. ;-)
>Our authors work long and hard researching their subjects before
writing, and give you their best. <
ROTFLMAO!!! If this doesn't get the Oscar Award for comedy, what will?
The whole Jack Chick crowd are among the stupidest, most arrogantly
uninformed sheep I've ever had the misfortune of finding. They couldn't
objectively research their way out of a paper bag. Clueless, helpless,
brainless, and spineless.
>On top of that, the second issue is that the materials themselves, in
many cases, contain authentic magical rituals. I can tell you this from
my own experience. I was a witch high priest (Alexandrian tradition)
during the period 1973-84. During some of that period (1976-80) I was
also involved in hardcore Satanism. We studied and practiced and
trained more than 175 people in the Craft. Our "covendom" was in
Milwaukee, Wisconsin; just a short drive away from the world
headquarters of TSR, the company which makes Dungeons and Dragons in
Lake Geneva, WI. In the late 1970's, a couple of the game writers
actually came to my wife and I as prominent "sorcerers" in the
community. They wanted to make certain the rituals were authentic. For
the most part, they are<
Why am I so naturally skeptical here? Could it be because there ARE no
rituals spelled out anywhere in D&D? So much for research! But of
course the Chick people are too stupid and too lazy to rise above their
sheepdom and question their own stupidity. His whole story reeks of
bullshit. You know, I grew up with D&D since the very earliest days of
Basic D&D in the 70's. Living in Chicago, which has God knows how many
gamers, I've never ever met a single gamer that was "evil", that
couldn't differentiate between the game and reality, that killed
himself (for ANY reason), or who ever tried "casting a spell" based on
what was written in the books. And we all listened to Ozzy too, so I
gues we're really lucky to still be alive! ;-)
>Now, the question becomes-if a person "innocently" works an authentic
ritual that conjures up a demon, or curses someone; thinking that they
are only playing a game-might not the ritual still have efficacy? I
think we know the answer to that question. If you play at shooting your
friend in the head with what you think is an unloaded pistol and don't
know a shell is in the chamber, is your friend any less dead because
you were playing?<
Wouldn't the proper analogy be that shooting at your friend's head with
a squirt gun is as harmless as playing D&D? Hmmm...then again, that
would be telling the truth. Scratch that idea! >;-)
>God says that if you tamper with magic and the occult, you are
stepping out from under His will and His protection (assuming you are a
Christian). If you are not a Christian, then you are REALLY playing
with fire. Some verses which clearly teach this are found in Exod.
22:18, Lev. 19:31, Lev. 20:6, Deut. 18:10, 1Sam. 15:23, 2Kgs. 21:6, Is.
8:19, Gal. 5:20, Rev. 21:8, Rev. 22:15<
I'm supposed to be afraid at this point I guess. Well, I love to
counter them with these tidbits:
Verses from Leviticus and Exodus - should I obey?
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord (Leviticus 1:9). The problem is my neighbors.
They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with
this?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as stated in Exodus
21:7.
In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness (Leviticus 15:19-24). The problem is,
how
can I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that
are
around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but
not
Canadians. Can you clarify?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill
him myself?
6. A friend of mine says that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination (Leviticus 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality.
I don't agree. Can you settle this?
7. Leviticus 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses.
Does
my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
>Deadly Games?<
More like deadly stupidity. Nothing like a little hateful religious
fanaticism to brighten the day. ;-) The Jack Chick people are among the
most reprehensible, stupid, ignorant and arrogant fools I've ever
known. I hope I'm not offending anyone here, but I have zero tolerance
for this hate group of deluded fanatics. On the other hand, some of
their tracts are so damn funny, I can't drink Coke and read them at the
same time because it ends up shooting out my nose! I guess even the
arrogant at least serve to provide entertainment. Here's their
hysterical (and sad) website:
http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp
And when you're done laughing at their fanatical stupidity there, I
have a treat for you. An even MORE hysterical parody site, which makes
fun of the Chick Tracts:
http://www.flash.net/~twinkle/psycho/DARK/chick/archive.html
Don't try drinking naything carbonated while reading, you've been
warned! ;-)
Scott, thanks for forwarding the letter you got back from them, I gotta
read this to a few friends, they're gonna die laughing! :-)
--
Halaster Blackcloak
"Undermountain, the Realms' deadliest dungeon? I prefer to call it
home."
"Elminster? Bah! Neophyte!"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Soth69
Satanism... Lemme se here... No... no... nuh uh... Damn, ther are none!
I'm an atheist, but that was a good while before Jack Chick came along...
Actually, reading his tracts only reinforced my commitment ot be an atheist...
----
Sitting in a room with 6 fat sweaty guys, who haven't bathed in 3 days, who are
playing D&D, who are playing 5 foot tall elf maids who are coming on to your 6'
5" human barbarian, but seem more like they are coming on to you- Priceless.
Soth69
Nick Lambert
wall : )
Bruce Grubb
<gasp...@jscomm.net> wrote:
>Hawkmoon269 <mad...@uswest.net> wrote in message
>news:Ejmp5.1077$Ph4.4...@news.uswest.net...
>> Damn, I just went looking through their site and reading some other
>tracts.
>> This Chick Publishing is starting to remind me of a hate group. Read the
>> ones on Allah, Gays and Catholicism.
>>
>I grew up read those tracts. I even passed them out to people. Now I have
>grown to understand that a god of love and mercy teaches us to turn the
>other cheek not bash and throw stones. I've known many good christian role
>players, I don't claim to be one in any conotation of those words. I'm a
>work in progress, growing hopefully to fit that description.
I agree. Sadly too many times when people talk about Christianity they talk
about not Christ's teaching of tolerance and love but the twisted abomination
of intolerance and hate that has caused countless suffering over the
centuries.
"The teaching of the youth to appreciate the value of the community, derives
its strongest inner power from the truths of Christianity... For this reason
it will always be my special duty to safeguard the right and free development
of the Christian school and the Christian fundamentals of all education."
Sounds like a good idea until you find who said those words: Adolf Hitler
Anthony Pitman
God"
> thread. Just curious of others experiences in this area. Are there any
> players on this group that actively practice religion?
>
Well... like Scott I am a work in progress, as many people are these days.
But I FIRMLY believe in Christ and the teachings of the bible. I am really
saddened by the fact that there are people who still target something they
know nothing about. I know nothing of 1st edition but pleanty of 2nd so I
realize by the things I am reading had to have been targeted at 1e. Maybe
things were a bit iffy then but I still think if anyone killed themselves or
others because of D&D it is because they were 1) Weak minded individuals who
couldn't handle reality. 2) Sociopaths who were already heading down that
road. and finally 3) Truly demon possessed. Now before someone jumps on me
for that just stop. I do believe demons are very real and do try to possess
people or influence them. I have a few times in my life felt something very
evil and I know it was trying to influence me. I know one terrorized my
fiancée for a couple weeks. Through prayer I really believe we drove it off.
But I am going far afield. I still feel the predjudice of this game. My
family was leery at first but they came to realize it was a game and
harmless. My fiancée's parents on the other hand freaked out when they
learned I played, refered to it as Satanism, and throught I was an axe
murderer until I quit. I did quit playing for over a year, until I came
back, we haven't told them I play though. Somethings are best left unknown.
So, while it isn't as bad as it was in the 80's there are still some pockets
of ignorance. Even my favorite pastor (no decent churches here so I watch
him on TBN) John Hagee condems it, I have written and asked why but have yet
to recieve a response because he is a busy man, gets many many letters a
day. So in short, D&D isn't evil, just a game, but ignorance is still a
force on Earth and honestly Satan's strongest tool, the less you know or
understand the better it is for him. (I mean some people still think he is a
guy in a red jump suit with horns, tail, and pitch fork)
--
Anthony Eugene Kennedy Pitman
The AD&D Source
http://members.xoom.com/dndsource/
"This is going to hurt." - The Elven Dragon Slayer before every battle.
Dr Nuncheon
Cadillac Jones <cadi...@cadillac.com> wrote:
>If hey can only find 11 instances of all the murders and suicides that
>took place in America since 1975 having the remotest connection with
>D&D what are they complaining about?
Amusingly, none of them have been proven to have any connection to
D&D.
Even more amusingly, even if *all* of them were true and because of
D&D...D&D players have a lower suicide rate then teens in general.
J
--
INTERNET SEEMS TO BE FULL OF MILLIONS OF | Jeff Johnston
IDIOTS & LUNATICS ! ! - c2 (ts...@my-deja.com) | jeffj @ io . com
Bruce Grubb
<gasp...@jscomm.net> wrote:
>I sent an email to Chick Publishing about their "Dark Dungeons" tract
>booklet. Just thought I'ld share their response to me.
>
>Dear Scott Thomlinson,
>Thank you for your message regarding the information on the seemingly
>innocent game, "Dungeons and Dragons", available on our website!
>
>We are sorry that you disagree with our content.
Mainly as pointed out by those those have accually done the research much of
it is *LIES* (now whose does lies, not Christ, uh I think you have a problem
here. Can you say Satan Father of Lies?)
> Our goal is to present
>information that can help people discover the joy that we have found in
>serving Jesus Christ, and to answer as many questions as possible. Our
>authors work long and hard researching their subjects before writing, and
>give you their best.
The research is poor to anyone who accually knows true research. The factal
errors are numberous.
>Please read the following message from William
>Schnoebelen (Ex-Wiccan High Priest).
>
>STRAIGHT TALK ON DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS
>
>By William Schnoebelen
>
>Dungeons and Dragons is a tragic and tangled subject. It is essentially a
>feeding program for occultism and witchcraft. For Christians, the first
>scriptural problem is the fact that Dungeons and Dragons violates the
>commandment of 1Ths. 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil."
This is fatcually inaccurate: The standard tranlation 1Ths. 5:21-22 is
"Test all things; hold fast what is good."
"Abstain from every form of evil"
Much of the
>trappings, art, figurines, and writing within D&D certainly appears evil-to
>say the least of it.
Since the work of the Crusaders and the Inquasitions appear evil since they
were based on Christity, Chrisitity itself must be evil. This is what this
kind of bankrupt logic results in.
>On top of that, the second issue is that the materials themselves, in many
>cases, contain authentic magical rituals.
Factually untrue as the entire D&D magic system come not from any real world
magic belief but rather from Vance's Dying Earth series. If this is the
example of Mr. Schnoebelen's mystical knowledge he is no more an Ex-Wiccan
High Priest than I am a Ex-Pope.
>I can tell you this from my own
>experience. I was a witch high priest (Alexandrian tradition) during the
>period 1973-84.
Note how none of these testimonials are after 1988 There is a good reason
for it as will be explained below.
[long testimonial snipped for space]
>Back in 1986, a fellow appeared on The 700 Club who was a former employee
>and game writer for TSR. He testified right on the show that he got into a
>wrangle with the management there because he saw that the rituals were too
>authentic and could be dangerous.
Any fool can claim to be a "former employee and game writer for TSR" but the
statements show him to be at best deluded if not an outright fraud.
>He protested to his boss and was basically
>told that this was the intent-to make the games as real as possible.
Back in 1986 the AD&D combat round was a full minute and players were making
jokes about fighters needing seeing eye dogs as they could at best hit
totally unskilled oppenents once every 30 seconds. By contract GURPS which
as far as combat is concerned -is- baced on the real world uses 1 second
combat rounds.
Futhermore the social and economic systems are totally unrealistic and the
monk class was taken straight from the Kung Fu movies popular back in the 80s
and no more accuarate than a 1900-1970 Hollywood Indian.
[more snippage]
>Deadly Games?
>
>To quote an old proverb, "Though the boys throw stones at the frogs in
>sport, the frogs die in earnest." Just because the people playing D&D think
>they are playing a game doesn't mean that the evil spirits (who ARE very
>real) will regard it as a game. If you are doing rituals or saying spells
>that invite them into your life, then they will come-believe me! We have
>prayed with enough people our age and younger who were former D&D fans, and
>they were totally in bondage to it.
>
>This brings us to other unsavory aspects of the game. One pro-D&D
>psychologist wrote that "There is hardly a game in which the players do not
>indulge in murder, arson, torture, rape or highway robbery."1
And the Christian Crusaders didn't? That 300 year period was a murder, arson,
torture, rape and highway robbery free for all.
>In fact, the
>Dungeon Master's Guide gives the celebrated Adolph Hitler as an example of a
>real historical person that exhibited D&D charisma!
This is factually deseptive as in D&D charisma means the ability to be
pursuasive. Also it omits the fact that the Paladin class straight from the
stories of King Arthur is the only class that accually uses Charisma as an
attribute.
>The values contained in
>the game are, at the very best, "might makes right."
This totally ignores the Paladin class which has the hardest time of it
because they are supposed show by example the values of Lawful Good (basicly
the Arthorian code). Behaving in a "might makes right" mindset is the
quickest way for a Paladin to lose his powers.
>Additionally, much of the game contains overtones that reek of illicit sex
>and sexual violence.
And the likes of Intolerance don't? How Captain CLueless can you get.
>Additionally, Fantasy-Role-Playing (FRP) games like D&D do employ
>brainwashing techniques:
>
>1) Fear generation-via spells and mental imaging about fear-filled,
>emotional scenes, and threats to survival of FRP characters.
The spells do not work in the real world.
>2) Isolation-psychological removal from traditional support structures
>(family, church, etc.) into an imaginary world. Physical isolation due to
>extremely time-consuming play activities outside the family atmosphere.
Hate groups that wrap themselves in Christianity use the family to continue
their hate.
>3) Physical torture and killings-images in the mind can be almost as real as
>the actual experiences.
Since when? At best these images are at B grade movie level generally being
at the Z grade level.
>4) Erosion of family values-the Dungeon Master (DM) demands an
>all-encompassing and total loyalty, control and allegiance.
Nonsence. No DM I knew ever did this. In fact it wasn't uncommon for people
to join or leave a particular DM.
>5) Situational Ethics-any act can be justified in the mind of the player,
>therefore there are no absolutes of right or wrong;
Factually inaccurate in that the alignment system provides a very strict code
of ethics - deviation from these alignements can and do bring heavy
penalities to the character. The Paladin class in fact is joined at the hip
with the alignement system.
>6) Religion-values and belief systems (see below) are restructured from
>traditional Judeo-Christian ethics (which most people in Western culture
>adhere to) to belief in multiple gods and deities. Players align themselves
>with specific deities they select; patron deities are strongly urged.
Again factually inaccurate. Of all the classes only the Clerics and Paladins
have to align themselves with a diety. Even though most DM ignore this and
these classes tend to draw their power from 'somewhere'.
>7) Loss of Self-control-authority over self is surrendered to the DM.
Again this never happened with any DM I have known over 20 years of playing.
>8) Degradation-pain and torture are heavily involved in sadistic, sexual
>situations that graphically appeal to visceral impulses. Much of the
>material (as mentioned above) is well into pornographic areas and stresses
>the defilement of innocence.3
Ever read Song of Solomon in the Bible Captain Clueless? Makes that stuff in
D&D look like cheesecake.
>A Clash of World Views!
>
>This is another, broader issue here. The values of the game are not only
>pro-violence and death; they also entrain the player in an entirely
>different way of looking at life: what is called by anthropologists the
>"Magical World View(MWV)." This MWV is far outside the cultural norms of
>most societies, and certainly outside the realms of Biblical values. Let me
>explain:
>
>1) The MWV teaches that there exists in the universe a neutral force, like
>gravity, which is magic.
This is again factually inaccurate. The MWV doesn't deal just with magic but
with the supernatual in general.
>In this worldview, there is no sovereign God;
This is a total lie as demonstrated by Carl Sagen's _The Demonhaunted World_.
The infamous _Malleus Maleficarum_ (Hammer of Witches, d1484) was firmly in
the MWV and firmly stated God was sovereign authority. This idea of God as
sovereign authority was in fact critial to using _Malleus Maleficarum_ for
without this one was mearly a sadist.
> but rather the universe is run like a gigantic piece of machinery.
This has nothing to do with the MWV; in fact is is the post-enlightenment
Newtonian view.
>2) The Judeo-Christian Worldview (i.e. from the Bible, and held by most
>cultures in the Western world to some degree) teaches, on the contrary, that
>the universe is in control of a sovereign Person, God. To get "results," He
>must be asked.
Accually this varies on the denomination of Christity. Saints can be called
on to provide aid and other demoninations hold that God cannot be directly
asked but rather must be called on through His son Jesus.
>Now obviously, these two worldviews cannot exist in the same moral universe.
Considering that these and host of other worldviews have coexisted in Japan
for 400 years this statement is agian factually wrong.
>Either one is true and the other false or vice-versa. Thus, one cannot be a
>Christian and believe in the MWV and not be some sort of hypocrite or
>deceived person.
The _Malleus Maleficarum_ did exatly this and did if from 1484 clear into the
1700s.
>A D&D "Hall of Shame"
Hall of deception would be better. Michael A. Stackpole in his _The Pulling
Report_ <http://www.rpg.net/252/quellen/stackpole/pulling_report.html> shows
these case are either fatually inaccurate or purposely vague. Remember what
I said about no cases after 1989? The reason is these people use old and out
of date information and simply pass it to each other. The fact of the matter
is these groups cannot produced one case 1990 or latter proablly because the
likes of Stackpole would desend and accually investigae the supposed case.
>This provides us with a spiritual explanation of why the following tragic
>litany of evil keeps growing around players of Dungeons and Dragons. The
>psychological explanation buttresses this as well, for we now understand the
>D&D can readily be a form of mind-control which also uses real occult
>techniques to foster possession by evil spirits.
>
>1) The "Freeway Killer," Vernon Butts, who committed suicide in his cell in
>1987 while being held as a suspect in a string of murders was an avid D&D
>player.4
"In yet other case listings, the fact that a person was reported to have
played D&D, as seen above in the Sean Hughes case, is enough to make his
death related to the game, even though the case has not be solved or closed
by the police. If there is any way for BADD and NCTV to link anything to D&D,
the link is forced and the chain of manufactured evidence grows longer."
(Pulling Report)
>2) D&D player (14 years old) commits suicide by hanging, 1979, name withheld
>by parents' request.
Pulled from Pulling original list. No evidence such an incident ever
happened and purposely vague. Note it is th4 only case before 1980.
>3) D&D player (17 years old) Michael Dempsey, Lynnwood, WA. suicide by
>gunshot wound to the head, 5/19/81. Witnesses saw him trying to summon up
>D&D demons just minutes before his death.
So the kid was disturbed. Doesn't mean the game did. If not D&D it would
have been something else. Can you say Jim Jones? Much the same can be said
of the other examples. Again note that there are no cases after 1988.
"Sean Sellers produced the following letter and sent it to the author of this
report. Sean gave permission for reprinting the letter with the proviso that
it appear complete when it is published.
With the controversy over role playing games so prevalent today many well
meaning people have sought to use my past as a reference for rebuking role
playing. While it is true that D&D contributed to my interest and knowledge
of occultism I must be fair and explain to what extent D&D contributed.
When I was playing D&D I was not a Satanist, and in fact would have probably
punched any Satanist I met right in the mouth. I was interested in witchcraft
and Zen however. In doing some research at the library for a D&D adventure I
was leading I happened upon other books that led to my study of occultism.
After I became a Satanist I used D&D manuals for their magical symbols and
character references for my initial studies. I also used my experience as a
Dungeonmaster to introduce people to Satanic behavior concepts and recruit
them into the occult.
I do have objections to some of the material TSR releases for their role
playing games. I think their excessive use of paganism and occultism is
unnecessary and can lead to idealistic problems among some players; however,
to be fair to TSR and in the spirit of honesty I must concede that D&D
contributed to my involvement in Satanism like an interest in electronics can
contributed to building a bomb. Like the decision to build a bomb, I had
already made decisions of a destructive nature before I incorporated D&D
material into my coven projects, and it was Satanism not D&D that had a
decisive role in my crimes.
Personally, for reasons I publish myself, I donšt think kids need to be
playing D&D, but using my past as a common example of the effects of the game
is either irrational or fanatical.
February 5th 1990
Sean R. Sellers"
<http://www.rpg.net/252/quellen/stackpole/pulling_report.html>
>11) D&D player (14 years old) Tom Sullivan, Jr. got into Satanism and ended
>up stabbing his mother to death, arranging a ritual circle (from D&D) in the
>middle of the living room floor and lit a fire in its midst. Fortunately,
>his dad and little brother were awakened by a smoke detector; but by then,
>Tom, Jr. had slashed his wrists and throat with his Boy Scout knife and died
>in the snow in a neighbor's yard.(1/19/88, Amarillo, TX.)8
>
>Of course, just like everything else, some people (young or otherwise) will
>say, "Those people were just weird or losers to begin with. I'm too together
>to fall into stuff like that. It's just a game!" Yeah, and an H-bomb is just
>a firecracker!
Read Sean R. Sellers letter Captain Clueless.
>Endnotes
If these are the best Chick can do there are in trouble.
>1 Peter Leithart & George Grant, A Christian Response to Dungeons and
>Dragons, Dominion Press, Ft. Worth, TX. 1987, p.5.
>
>2 Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible, Avon Books, 1969, p.135.
>
>3 Pat Pulling, quoted in File 18 Newsletter, 10/24/86, from CCIN, 222 N.
>Latah St. Boise, ID. 83706-2657, 208-336-9950.
Long discredited as inaccurate and deseptive. Her knowledge of RPGs in
general and D&D in particular is a joke. See
<http://www.rpg.net/252/quellen/stackpole/pulling_report.html>
>4 Leithart & Grant, op. cit., p.5.
>
>5 Statistics 2-8 courtesy of Yvonne Peterson, EXODUS S.A. Occult Awareness
>Program, P.O. Box 700293, San Antonio, TX. 78270; 1987, p.9.
>
>6 Salt Lake Tribune, 3/2/88.
>
>7 File 18 Newsletter, op. cit., 2/22/87. Since this article was originally
>written in 1989, it is now my belief that Sean Sellers was executed for his
>crimes and is now (thanks to the mercy of Jesus and Sean's faith in Him) in
>heaven.
File 18 has its own problems. Agian see the pulling_report article
G. James Wilkinson
<gasp...@jscomm.net> wrote:
>I sent an email to Chick Publishing about their "Dark Dungeons" tract
>booklet. Just thought I'ld share their response to me.
>
<snip>
Heh, sweet Jesus that was a load of horse-shit. Personally, I am
extremely tempted to send these people a copy of my Call of Cthulu
books. Maybe after reading a little bit from those, they'll back off
of D&D for a while, eh? Hell, it might induce a seizure in 'em, or an
anuerism. Heh.
--
James doesn't need a .sig
Dilandau Albatou
- d -
Any orthographical error above the "d" has
been made with my full knowledge and intent.
Andrew Tellez
Bruce Grubb wrote:
>
> >1) Fear generation-via spells and mental imaging about fear-filled,
> >emotional scenes, and threats to survival of FRP characters.
>
> The spells do not work in the real world.
And the "mental imaging" is dispelled with the first Python reference or
request to "pass the munchies."
> >3) Physical torture and killings-images in the mind can be almost as real as
> >the actual experiences.
>
> Since when? At best these images are at B grade movie level generally being
> at the Z grade level.
I wish I were a good enough storyteller to have this level of impact.
Not that I'd go around trying to disturb people with pamphlets or
anything.
> >4) Erosion of family values-the Dungeon Master (DM) demands an
> >all-encompassing and total loyalty, control and allegiance.
>
> Nonsence. No DM I knew ever did this. In fact it wasn't uncommon for people
> to join or leave a particular DM.
I tried, but it didn't work. Some of them are actually going to miss a
session this weekend. Maybe I could use one of those "rituals" to
summon a couple extra players.
> >7) Loss of Self-control-authority over self is surrendered to the DM.
>
> Again this never happened with any DM I have known over 20 years of playing.
Are you sure? He's saying that the "loss of self-control-authority over
self" is surrendered to the DM. How does one surrender a loss, and how
would we know?
> The infamous _Malleus Maleficarum_ (Hammer of Witches, d1484) was firmly in
> the MWV and firmly stated God was sovereign authority. This idea of God as
> sovereign authority was in fact critial to using _Malleus Maleficarum_ for
> without this one was mearly a sadist.
But a well-instructed sadist.
Bryan J. Maloney
Folks, this is nothing better than a Troxy (Troll by proxy). Treat it
accordingly.
--
For those in the know, potrzebie is truly necessary.
Bryan J. Maloney
<halaster_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> http://www.flash.net/~twinkle/psycho/DARK/chick/archive.html
>
> Don't try drinking naything carbonated while reading, you've been
> warned! ;-)
I just wish that *I* had a DM that looked Miss Frost.
Bryan J. Maloney
dilandau-...@another.com (Dilandau Albatou) wrote:
> GARY GYGAX KILLED MY HAMSTER!
Go for the eyes, Boo, RUUUUSK! (Yes, I know what it's supposed to be, but
it comes out "RUUUSK" on my speakers.)
Bryan J. Maloney
<bgr...@zianet.com> wrote:
> "The teaching of the youth to appreciate the value of the community, derives
> its strongest inner power from the truths of Christianity... For this reason
> it will always be my special duty to safeguard the right and free development
> of the Christian school and the Christian fundamentals of all education."
>
> Sounds like a good idea until you find who said those words: Adolf Hitler
The same one who had nuns, priests, and ministers hanged as soon as they
got to be inconvenient...
Bryan J. Maloney
It's interesting that this exact same Troxy hit the GURPS newsgroup and
got hardly a belch in response...
Reece Watkins
thought I'd share a bit of my observations and experience with the system.
1) D&D in itself, is not evil, nor has it ever really been. It was always
slanted heavily towards the "good guys", and I've never seen an evil PC do
all that well in any of the groups I played in. Usually, they learned the
valuable lesson that screwing with the party for your own benefit usually
gets your butt kicked. Now, TSR is to blame for the stupidity of the
Eldritch Wizardry cover, as well as the topless Gynosphinx in the original
MM, and others. It was just bad business to put these things in, when they
were going to be displayed publicly. They weren't the only ones--Steve
Jackson's original Metagaming edition of the microgame Melee had a drawing
of a gargoyle on the cover with its dick hanging out! I remember having to
draw some shorts on the guy so I wouldn't be suspended from school. I don't
really have any nudity hangups, mind you, but a lot of the ignorant public
do, and that just fueled these dinks' fires. If they really wanted some
evidence, SPI put out a minigame called "Demons" in the early 80s, and there
was an address you could write to to get a "real" demon-summoning ritual.
How stupid was that?
2) Funny how no other RPGs are usually mentioned in these things--especially
Call of Cthulhu. I mean, I'm sure there's at least one idiot out there who
killed himself when his Traveller GM made his PGMP-13 explode. If the Bible
teaches us anything about Satan, it's that he hates to be obvious. You
could make a better case against RPGs if you concentrated on crap like the
White Wolf "Vampire" etc., where the whole point is to play an evil
bloodsucking murderer. It doesn't matter how much it may "grip you with
woe", you're still killing people.
3) Here's the real litmus test you can hold any of these religious sayings
up to: In the Bible, whenever God sent an angel to tell someone something,
the first words out of the angel's mouth were usually "Fear not." ("Fear
not" appears sixty-two times in the Bible!) Anything that tries to instill
fear is not from the true God. In the New Testament, there's all this talk
about faith and believing, right? Fear is the opposite of believing.
Consider:
1Pe:5:8: Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a
roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
This is a pretty good simile, as lions roar to instill fear in their prey
before they leap upon them. Fear is such a primal urge that people act on
it out of sheer reflex, rather than rational thought. This is what the
tractmakers prey on, whether they're aware of it or not. When you're afraid
of something, you don't really want to examine it too closely, do you?
Which leads us to...
4) Christianity is what God wrought in Christ. Religion is what man comes
up with in his ignorance. The more ludicrous the religion is, the more it's
usually based on fear. Fear of damnation, fear of hell, fear of infidels,
whatever. Once they have you afraid, they can sell you any bill of goods
they can to keep the guilt money rolling in. But the Word says quite
clearly:
1Jo:1:5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare
unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
Ro:2:4: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and
longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to
repentance?
Eph:2:7: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his
grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
It's pretty obvious from those that God isn't just waiting around to smite
everybody with lightning bolts if they don't eat fish on Friday, or
whatever. But if no one ever showed you these Scriptures, how would you
know that you weren't getting the whole story from the pulpits? It's sheer
spiritual hitchhiking. The Word exhorts every believer to:
2Tm:2:15: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth
not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
This is the only place in the NT where the words "study", and "rightly
dividing" are used. Everybody divides the Word. The question is whether or
not we are rightly dividing it. If we allow others to wrongly divide the
Word without checking it ourselves, we are as shameful workmen. Organized
religion teaches a lot of junk that flatly contradicts the Bible. Is that
God's fault? It's no wonder that many intelligent people claim "atheism" or
the cop-out, "agnosticism"--perhaps if the Bible were analyzed and taught
logically, rather than religiously, unbelievers would be in the minority.
5) No one over the age of six believes that if you run off a cliff like Wile
E. Coyote after the Road Runner, you will hang suspended in mid-air until
you realize you need to fall. Healthy, well-adjusted individuals have no
problem discerning between reality and fantasy. Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam"
killer, thought his _dog_ told him to murder all those people. Where's the
public outcry to ban dogs? Where are all the Chick tracts?? Dogs cause
murder!!! Puh-leeze.
Heb:5:14b: Even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to
discern both good and evil.
"Reason of USE" it says. Discerning good and evil isn't all that hard!
Biblical scholar Rufus Moseley once said something along the lines of, "God
is all the time trying to do the best He can for you, while the Devil is
trying to do the worst. The way you vote determines the election."
6) I didn't really mean to turn this into a sermon. Everybody is free to
choose what they'll believe, and I don't try to jam this down anyone's
throat. It just galls me to see ignorant religious zealots who claim to
follow the Truth spout forth these twisted lies.
2Pe:2:2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the
way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
I'm tired of these pernicious jerks getting rich over giving God a bad name.
They can kiss Balaam's ass. (Numbers 22)
And mine.
Reece Watkins
Patrick Berry
> with D&D. Back in the 70s, my mom was curious about the game, after hearing all
> the bad press, but after a single sit-in during one of our sessions, she was
> relieved to know that all of the bad press was, indeed, unfounded.
I've come to realize that my parents were much wiser than I gave them
credit for. I came back from my first year away at college all
enthusiastic about D&D, and rounded up some of my high school buddies
and my brother to start a gaming group in my home town. My parents
never showed the slightest sign of concern, or even curiosity, about
this. They didn't interrogate me about the game and who I learned it
from, or anything like that. Instead, they simply made our house
available as a gaming location, and most of the D&D games that took
place that summer were held in our dining room (because that's where the
big table was). This enabled them to unobtrusively observe what we were
doing and satisfy themselves that it was harmless.
Pretty clever, Mom and Dad.
Henry J. Leckenby
: Has anyone else gone through similiar experiences with religion and gaming?
: After reading the Dark Dungeons booklet on the chick website, I can't
: actually believe there are people that stupid as to write about a subject
: thry have no knowledge on. I laughed so hard when I read it, then I
: realized, they TRULY believe that nonsense.
: I was raised by my grandmother, who was a very strong and conservative
: christian. But she also got me into D&D when I was 10, by encouraging me to
: get involved with a game that fueled my imagination and gave it focus. I
: guess everything I lerned to temper is from her. I honestly cannot believe
: that there are people out there still targeting this game. I never
: experienced the mad mothers syndrome in the 80's, only heard about it.
: So, maybe this has been broached before, it's not a "D&D is Evil, find God"
: thread. Just curious of others experiences in this area. Are there any
: players on this group that actively practice religion?
: Just would like to hear some other viewpoints on the subject.
Yup, I'm a practicing Catholic. I've heard of some priests
(used in areas "off the beaten path" that bought into some of that
hoo-hah, but since Jack Chick thinks Catholics are slightly more
evil than Satan, his tracts really didn't have that much weight
in the community. :) (I first saw 'em when I was an undergrad
at a Catholic University, Villanova.)
But then since I'm also an astronomer working in a universe
more than 6,000 years old, its "down the hatch" already. (Check
out Chick's tract Big Daddy, or the truly hilarious "Boo" where it
describes how most people will go to hell ...
Harry Leckenby
Henry J. Leckenby
: Scott Thomlinson <gasp...@jscomm.net> wrote:
: : I'm a Mormon and the groups resident Paladin was Mormon and a friend of mine
: : as well. He was getting ready to go on his mission and the single purpose
: : paladin mentality helped him focus.
: I don't know if working out real world issues in a roleplaying game is
: the best way to go through life. It might have worked for your friend,
: but in general this strikes me as one step on the road towards
: trouble.
I've long though that the biggest advantage to gaming,
fantasy literature, science fiction, etc., was to examine issues
without having to deal with the additional emotional baggage
those have accumulated in the real world. I never got the
idea that the original poster's friend was living his life by
the game.
Harry Leckenby
Aaron F. Bourque
>Scott Thomlinson <gasp...@jscomm.net> wrote:
>
>: I'm a Mormon and the groups resident Paladin was Mormon and a friend
>: of mine as well. He was getting ready to go on his mission and the
>: single purpose paladin mentality helped him focus.
>
>I don't know if working out real world issues in a roleplaying game is
>the best way to go through life. It might have worked for your friend,
>but in general this strikes me as one step on the road towards
>trouble.
Isn't that what *psychiatric* role-playng is all about?
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
--
Being grown up all the time is only a sign of immaturity.
Come on, people! Grow up! Act stupid!
Henry J. Leckenby
: well the responce in the initial post seemed (to me) the be one
: of those dangerous 1/2 wrong and 1/2 right things.
Your being quite generous with your ratio, there :)
: I myself have ALWAYS detested the notion of real demon names and
: references to real-world (usually "dark") religions in d&d. And
: i strongly detest WOTC's recent action to re-include such names
: in 3e. However, on the other hand, withouth these elements i
: can find little wrong with d&d. Furthermore the large part of
: the reply in the original post (as others have pointed out) is
: basically biased nonsence.
: Some will agree and some will disagree with me (lets keep it friendly please)
Barring the use of "Satan" in an early issue of Dragon,
and possibly "Beelzebul" in the 1eMM, What other names would you consider
as real demon names?
: But i'll go on playing d&d without the demons, devils, and whatever
: other references to "dark" religions that i recognize for now.
Out of (I swear!) friendly curiosity, what "dark" religions
do you refer to?
Harry Leckenby
Henry J. Leckenby
: Ecspecially when you use the darker moments of Catholicism and Christianity
: as plot hooks.
I trust you mean, "Catholicism and other Christian groups" :)
Harry Leckenby
Blackberry
2000 07:08:38 -0600 reached theears of the unsuspecting...
>
>[great response snipped]
Bruce, your answer was superb. It's too bad that people like them wouldn't even
bother to read it if you sent it to them. Arguing with those kinds of people is
like arguing with a brick wall, only less fun. They have no concept of even
*trying* to think rationally for a second, because if they do, they might have
to question their faith.
This is their normal process:
A boy committed suicide.
He had played D&D.
Therefore, D&D made him do it.
Therefore, D&D is evil and kills people.
It doesn't matter if you can produce 10 million cases of suicide *not* related
to D&D for every 20 cases they can produce that *are* related to D&D. They do
not desire to think rationally.
--------------------
"It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet."
-- Frankie Goes to Hollywood
Brian -- le...@NOnwlinkSPAM.com -- remove "NOSPAM"
Lizard
>I myself have ALWAYS detested the notion of real demon names and
>references to real-world (usually "dark") religions in d&d.
First off, since there are no demons, there are no 'real' demon names
in D&D. It's like saying there are 'real' Vulcan names in Star Trek.
Second off, if you DO believe in demons, presumably biblically,
consider this -- there's no Demogorgon, Orcus, or Jubilex in the
Bible. Those name were culled from works of mythology written during
the past two millennia, and thus, they are no more likely to be the
names of 'real' demons than any other random set of syllables.
The worst thing you can accuse D&D of is shamelessly stealing names
from varied myths, stripping them of context, and using them
inappropriately.
*----------------------------------------------------*
Evolution doesn't take prisoners:Lizard
"I've heard of this thing men call 'empathy', but I've never
once been afflicted with it, thanks the Gods." Bruno The Bandit
http://www.mrlizard.com
Lizard
<nic...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>I am convinced that if I eat enough spiders, one day I will be able to walk up my
>wall : )
Do not invite me for dinner at your place. Thanks.
Henry J. Leckenby
: Though my favorite was the bit about the spells being real. I got some guano
: and sulphur tonight, but no matter how many times i pointed my finger, nothing
: happned.
with you ...
USCM_Sulaco
<SNIP>
> On top of that, the second issue is that the materials themselves, in
many
> cases, contain authentic magical rituals.
<SNIP>
This is true! I was driving with a wiccan friend of mine and we almost
had an accident cos he took his hands off the wheel to cast Magic
Missile at a guy who cut us off in traffic!
Really though, LOL! Thanks for posting this. It made my day! :)
--
"Superstition is the religion of fools."
Dave's Wyrld http://www.homestead.com/daves_wyrld
My D&D Page http://www.homestead.com/daves_wyrld/adnd.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ben Buckner
"Henry J. Leckenby" wrote:
>
> Jimmy Kerl <j...@icok.net> wrote:
> : well the responce in the initial post seemed (to me) the be one
> : of those dangerous 1/2 wrong and 1/2 right things.
>
> Your being quite generous with your ratio, there :)
>
> : I myself have ALWAYS detested the notion of real demon names and
> : references to real-world (usually "dark") religions in d&d. And
> : i strongly detest WOTC's recent action to re-include such names
> : in 3e. However, on the other hand, withouth these elements i
> : can find little wrong with d&d. Furthermore the large part of
> : the reply in the original post (as others have pointed out) is
> : basically biased nonsence.
>
> : Some will agree and some will disagree with me (lets keep it friendly please)
>
> Barring the use of "Satan" in an early issue of Dragon,
> and possibly "Beelzebul" in the 1eMM, What other names would you consider
> as real demon names?
Asmodeus (definitely a demon in some contexts) and Orcus (chthonic
Roman deity). Demogorgon is a historical name too, but I'm not
entirely familiar with the associations. I think it, like Orcus,
goes back to classical times. The English Romantics used
demogorgon as a character,a powerful supernatural entity, though
perhaps not quite a demon in the modern sense (but certainly in
the classical sense).
D&D magic does, or at least did, try to emulate the _trappings_
of real magic rituals to some extent (e.g. magic circles, lists
of magical associations of various gems), but I've never seen
anything in it that even approached allowing someone to perform
an actual magical ritual. Of course, even if the DMG had
straight excerpts of the Lemegeton, you have to be a bit of a
stooge to think that doing magic rituals is really going to
make magic happen. You can wave headless black chickens around
all night, but it's not going to summon dread infernal powers to
do your bidding or put a curse on your gym teacher.
Ben B.
Bryan J. Maloney
<hjle...@mtu.edu> wrote:
> Jimmy Kerl <j...@icok.net> wrote:
> : well the responce in the initial post seemed (to me) the be one
> : of those dangerous 1/2 wrong and 1/2 right things.
>
> Your being quite generous with your ratio, there :)
>
> : I myself have ALWAYS detested the notion of real demon names and
> : references to real-world (usually "dark") religions in d&d. And
> : i strongly detest WOTC's recent action to re-include such names
> : in 3e. However, on the other hand, withouth these elements i
> : can find little wrong with d&d. Furthermore the large part of
> : the reply in the original post (as others have pointed out) is
> : basically biased nonsence.
>
> : Some will agree and some will disagree with me (lets keep it friendly
please)
>
> Barring the use of "Satan" in an early issue of Dragon,
> and possibly "Beelzebul" in the 1eMM, What other names would you consider
> as real demon names?
Asmodeus, Dispater, and others actually come from historical demonology.
ega...@my-deja.com
like the Chick group make the rest of us Christians look bad.
I've been role playing for over two decades now and I can't recall one
instance where I've summoned Satan or sacrificed my neighbor's cat. In
all seriousness, all this stuff does is give more fuel to the anti-
Christians on this board who are already trashing my faith becaue of
dicks like Jack Chick.
To me, D&D and other roleplaying games are nothing more than pure,
escapist FICTION. D&D is not the real world, for crying out loud!
When I play D&D, I am just going back in time to when I was a little
kid and playing pretend - albeit now with rules. When I roleplay, for
a little while, the job, the jerk boss, the bills, the wife, the car
that needs repairs, all of them fade into the background and for a
little while I can enjoy just being a kid again and play. Magic isn't
real. Orcs aren't real. And I'm wise enough to recognize it.
Now there are some things that I don't like about roleplaying. I feel
that when you roleplay, you should always have your character be a
hero, rather than a villan. As human beings, we should always be
striving to be better than what we are now, not worse (that's a
humanist, not just a Christian view). Our roleplaying characters
should, as Abe Lincoln put it, "appeal to the better angels of our
nature." That's why I don't really like the Vampire rpg - the
characters aren't heroes, they're murderers. No thanks - I'd rather be
a heroic lone fighter in D&D fighting with my last ounce of strength to
defend a village from a goblin onslaught than be an evil, murderous
monster (ok, an evil angst-ridden murderous monster dressed stylishly
in all black and afflicted with a terminal case of ennui. Thanks oh so
much, White Wolf. Sheesh....)
There is some danger in roleplaying when someone plays who isn't mature
enough to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, but that's
not a matter of religion, that's a matter of mental development.
So please, to all of those getting ready to trash Christianity for the
idiotic assertions of one so-called "Christian" group, just know that
what they're proposing isn't real Christianity. Anyone who wants to
know what REAL Christianity is all about should read C.S. Lewis's "Mere
Christianity". Its a deep read, but well worth it and I'm sure that
the people on this board have more than sufficient brainpower to
understand it.
Oh, and by the way, C.S. Lewis, who is considered by most to be the
greatest modern-era Christian writer, was a committed atheist before he
converted to Christianity. After his conversion, among many other
books, he wrote the classic seven-book fantasy fiction series "The
Chronicles of Narnia". And who introduced the scathingly atheist Lewis
to Christianity? None other than his good, intensly religious Roman
Catholic friend, the grandfather of all modern fantasy and without whom
there would be no D&D...
J.R.R. Tolkien.
Tom Proudfoot
<uscm_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <k6mp5.95$rJ4....@eagle.america.net>,
> "Scott Thomlinson" <gasp...@jscomm.net> wrote:
>
><SNIP>
>
>> On top of that, the second issue is that the materials themselves, in
>many
>> cases, contain authentic magical rituals.
>
><SNIP>
>
>This is true! I was driving with a wiccan friend of mine and we almost
>had an accident cos he took his hands off the wheel to cast Magic
>Missile at a guy who cut us off in traffic!
>
Are you sure it wasn't Bigby's Interposing Finger?
Tom Proudfoot Natuk... an orc adventure.
pro...@proudft.com http://www.proudft.com
Lizard
>
> In article <8o5bcm$v0a$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Halaster Blackcloak
> <halaster_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > http://www.flash.net/~twinkle/psycho/DARK/chick/archive.html
> >
> > Don't try drinking naything carbonated while reading, you've been
> > warned! ;-)
>
> I just wish that *I* had a DM that looked Miss Frost.
>
try D&D than to read the Bible. "Wow! Look at the HOT BABES who play
D&D!"
*Everyone defined as '90% of males and 10% of females', statistically
speaking.
Colin Neilson
wrote:
>Scott,
>You broached a subject I have long though about but never delved into. I
>have been playing since the early 80's, and was an avid christian growing
>up. I was even ex-communicated from a church once when they found out I
>played D&D.
>Now I have become so disillusioned with organized religion I consider myself
>an agnostic who firmly believes in God:) (And a hell of a contradiction that
>may be).
Not really a contradiction, if you accept that you aren't sure what
the actual nature of God is. I've been a Christian all my life and I
firmly believe that there will be Bhuddists, Hindus, Agnostics,
Athiests and members of all sorts of other religions in the afterlife
paradise. Not exactly ortodox belief. But what the heck, I have
house rules in my games, so why not my belief system? :)
>Has anyone else gone through similiar experiences with religion and gaming?
>After reading the Dark Dungeons booklet on the chick website, I can't
>actually believe there are people that stupid as to write about a subject
>thry have no knowledge on. I laughed so hard when I read it, then I
>realized, they TRULY believe that nonsense.
I never had a direct confrontation with a church over RPGs. The
Ministers at the Churces I've attended all knew I played, and I was
always welcome at the Church. Heck, I taught Sunday school for two
years at one and there was never any complaint.
A friend did give me one of the Anti-RPG pamphlets once in an attempt
to 'save my soul'. I annotated it, pointing out the glaring
innacuracies and total falicies, and gave it back to her. A week
later we met, I broght my books, she checked them out and we both had
a good laugh at how she had been duped.
cla...@mindspring.com
I dislike WW products, but if you had ever read the Vampire:tm book,
you would know that you can be a vampire in that game without ever
having murdered anyone.
Peter Seebach
Colin Neilson <cnei...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>A friend did give me one of the Anti-RPG pamphlets once in an attempt
>to 'save my soul'. I annotated it, pointing out the glaring
>innacuracies and total falicies, and gave it back to her. A week
>later we met, I broght my books, she checked them out and we both had
>a good laugh at how she had been duped.
That's really good.
-s
--
Copyright 2000, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/
cla...@mindspring.com
Neilson) wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 21:27:02 -0700, "Hawkmoon269" <mad...@uswest.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Scott,
>>You broached a subject I have long though about but never delved into. I
>>have been playing since the early 80's, and was an avid christian growing
>>up. I was even ex-communicated from a church once when they found out I
>>played D&D.
>>Now I have become so disillusioned with organized religion I consider myself
>>an agnostic who firmly believes in God:) (And a hell of a contradiction that
>>may be).
>
>Not really a contradiction, if you accept that you aren't sure what
>the actual nature of God is.
Not dissing the belief or anything, but isn't this technically Deist
and not Agnostic?
> I've been a Christian all my life and I
>firmly believe that there will be Bhuddists, Hindus, Agnostics,
>Athiests and members of all sorts of other religions in the afterlife
>paradise. Not exactly ortodox belief. But what the heck, I have
>house rules in my games, so why not my belief system? :)
>
>>Has anyone else gone through similiar experiences with religion and gaming?
>>After reading the Dark Dungeons booklet on the chick website, I can't
>>actually believe there are people that stupid as to write about a subject
>>thry have no knowledge on. I laughed so hard when I read it, then I
>>realized, they TRULY believe that nonsense.
>
>I never had a direct confrontation with a church over RPGs. The
>Ministers at the Churces I've attended all knew I played, and I was
>always welcome at the Church. Heck, I taught Sunday school for two
>years at one and there was never any complaint.
>
Henry J. Leckenby
: > : references to real-world (usually "dark") religions in d&d. And
: > : i strongly detest WOTC's recent action to re-include such names
: > : in 3e. However, on the other hand, withouth these elements i
: > : can find little wrong with d&d. Furthermore the large part of
: > : the reply in the original post (as others have pointed out) is
: > : basically biased nonsence.
: >
: > and possibly "Beelzebul" in the 1eMM, What other names would you consider
: > as real demon names?
: Asmodeus (definitely a demon in some contexts) and Orcus (chthonic
: Roman deity). Demogorgon is a historical name too, but I'm not
: entirely familiar with the associations. I think it, like Orcus,
: goes back to classical times. The English Romantics used
: demogorgon as a character,a powerful supernatural entity, though
: perhaps not quite a demon in the modern sense (but certainly in
: the classical sense).
In the Middle Ages, the deities of other cultures were
considered as real, but demons trying to trick people into
worshipping them. In the Song of Roland, the evil Mohammedian
sorceror talks about being given a tour of hell by Jupiter.
Asmodeus is a Persian "demon" who torments married people.
The name is used in the book of Tobit, which is not acceptaed as
canonical among Protestants. As there are very few Catholic
literalists (the same goes for other denominations with
European roots; modern fundamentalism is pretty much an
American phenomena), Tobit is not considered to represent
historical events, but (like Job and Jonah) to tell a story
important for what it say than what "happened".
Orcus wasn't the most cheerful of deities, but
got "demoted" by the Christians of the times.
Harry Leckenby
Henry J. Leckenby
: Asmodeus, Dispater, and others actually come from historical demonology.
Dispater (Latin, literally "Father Night") comes from
Roman mythology.
Harry Leckenby
Dr Nuncheon
>Sigh...as a committed Christian and gamer, I hate it when stupid fools
>like the Chick group make the rest of us Christians look bad.
Fortunately, the more open-minded folks among the gamers know that Chick
doesn't speak for all Christians. I blame Chick for Chick, not
Christianity.
>I've been role playing for over two decades now and I can't recall one
>instance where I've summoned Satan or sacrificed my neighbor's cat.
Well OBVIOUSLY the SATANIC MIND CONTROL spells in the books MADE you
forget.
I wonder if I can make a case for satanic mind control spells hidden in
Jack Chick comics? Hmm.
>Now there are some things that I don't like about roleplaying. I feel
>that when you roleplay, you should always have your character be a
>hero, rather than a villan. As human beings, we should always be
>striving to be better than what we are now, not worse (that's a
>humanist, not just a Christian view). Our roleplaying characters
>should, as Abe Lincoln put it, "appeal to the better angels of our
>nature." That's why I don't really like the Vampire rpg - the
>characters aren't heroes, they're murderers. No thanks - I'd rather be
>a heroic lone fighter in D&D fighting with my last ounce of strength to
>defend a village from a goblin onslaught than be an evil, murderous
>monster (ok, an evil angst-ridden murderous monster dressed stylishly
>in all black and afflicted with a terminal case of ennui. Thanks oh so
>much, White Wolf. Sheesh....)
I'll note that my favorite (well, pretty much only) Vampire character
subsisted on a diet of animal blood, so he's no more a murderer than your
average non-vegetarian. It's also possible to drink blood from people
without killing them.
In fact, one of the central themes of Vampire is (or was?) the struggle of
trying to stay good and human when you were put in a position where it's
almost impossible to do so. (I think that got diluted a lot later on when
Humanity got de-emphasized - one of the reasons I dislike "Paths of
Enlightenment".)
>There is some danger in roleplaying when someone plays who isn't mature
>enough to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, but that's
>not a matter of religion, that's a matter of mental development.
And the danger is not in the RPG, it's in the person.
J
--
INTERNET SEEMS TO BE FULL OF MILLIONS OF | Jeff Johnston
IDIOTS & LUNATICS ! ! - c2 (ts...@my-deja.com) | jeffj @ io . com
cla...@mindspring.com
wrote:
>I'll note that my favorite (well, pretty much only) Vampire character
>subsisted on a diet of animal blood, so he's no more a murderer than your
>average non-vegetarian. It's also possible to drink blood from people
>without killing them.
>
>In fact, one of the central themes of Vampire is (or was?) the struggle of
>trying to stay good and human when you were put in a position where it's
>almost impossible to do so. (I think that got diluted a lot later on when
>Humanity got de-emphasized - one of the reasons I dislike "Paths of
>Enlightenment".)
>
The first supliment to the game I really liked was the Sabbat book,
because I like the paths. It always bothered me that a group of
creatuers that differed widely in every way from age to powers to
having similar appearance to humans, to whatever could agree on a
common moral system, while normal humans can't even do that.
Halaster Blackcloak
>Sigh...as a committed Christian and gamer, I hate it when stupid fools
like the Chick group make the rest of us Christians look bad.
I've been role playing for over two decades now and I can't recall one
instance where I've summoned Satan or sacrificed my neighbor's cat. In
all seriousness, all this stuff does is give more fuel to the anti-
Christians on this board who are already trashing my faith becaue of
dicks like Jack Chick.<
Nah. I would hope that anyone with half a brain can see that people
like Jack Chick are in a cult, not a religion. I sometimes refer to
them as "pseudo-Christians" because the only similarity between them
and real Christians is the name.
I'm not very religious myself, but I respect those who are, as long as
they're sincere about it and not a fanatic who insists on pushing their
beliefs on me. Of the various friends I have, they all are relatively
normal, whether they're Christian, Buddhist, atheist, etc. You know, I
have noticed something about these groups like the Chick people and
some of the more fanatical fringe, especially the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Every single one I have ever met in my life (and I've met quite a few)
has had some serious mental/emotional issues going on. In every case
without fail, each of them seemed to be hiding from reality, taking
shelter in a "religion" that was so spiteful and divisive as to be
properly called a cult. Without fail, all of them I have ever met have
not only had a background of either abuse, alcoholism, or drug
addiction (which they simply traded in exchange for a substitute
addiction... their "religion"), they all also seemed to find Satan
lurking behind everything on the world, be it movies, tv, music, games,
sports, etc. Even Smurfs and Disney characters threatened these people.
I gave up long ago trying to reach these lunatics, when I had a martial
arts class I was teaching and a few of the older students and I played
D&D. When one mother found out about it (she was a Jehovah Witness),
she declared me a Satanist (actually "a powerful demon" were her exact
words) and the Jehovahs in the area I live in declared martial arts and
self defense classes "evil", and banned members from engaging in that
type of activity.
Those people are cultists and have no life outside of the cult, and
indeed are psychologically as dependant on their "religion" as a heroin
junkie is to his drugs. They can't be reasoned with because their
entire psychological well being is founded on what they've been taught.
They've been taught not to let logic or common sense reach them.
But I have to admit, Jack Chick cracks me up when he refers to the
Catholic Communion wafer as the "death cookie"! ;-D Fanatical, but
funny nonetheless!
--
Halaster Blackcloak
"Undermountain, the Realms' deadliest dungeon? I prefer to call it
home."
"Elminster? Bah! Neophyte!"
R. Scott Rogers
read any of the anti-gaming pamphlets. Never seen one,
actually. An interesting read.
The writer has quite an imagination, and a theological
attitude that I had never before heard from a
Christian. Mind, I do tend not to have evangelical
friends. And I'm not a Christian myself, so my
experience with the faith is perhaps not as extensive
as it might be. But I've never before known a Christian
to believe in the existence of gods other than God, and
gods who can manifest their power in the physical world
at that. With the proviso that some Christians do
believe in the oppositional demigod of the Devil, an
independent semi-supreme being who exercises divine
powers independently of God.
I know technically the Old Testament allows for the
existence of non-God gods (the first or so Commandment
being "I am the Lord they God, and you will have no
other gods before me," not "I am the only God there is,
so you might as well worship me, there being no other
gods whom you might put before me") but the New
Testament always seemed to me to actively deny the
existence of non-God gods. Yet this guy seems to be a
polytheist who maintains not that his deity is the one
and only supreme being but that his deity is the one
most preferable supreme being.
Hmmm.
Me, my biggest worry is that people will take seriously
the simplistic cause-and-effect arguments about
childhood violence and fantasy role playing.
Scott
--
R. Scott Rogers
sro...@mindspring.com
ega...@my-deja.com
reaching my conclusions about V:TM...and you're right, I forgot, you
can be a good vampire, striving to reach Golconda (sp?), or salvation.
Kind of like Angel in the WB series, being a tragic hero. But it seems
that that theme, which was kind of the direction V:TM was going in the
beginning, was lost along the way, and the World of Darkness just kept
getting darker and darker. With each supplement that came out, (and I
read all of them, too) it seemed that the company was not advocating
any kind of heroism or struggle for good, just nihilistic depravity.
Notice I didn't say that if you play Vampire, you're evil and going to
hell. Not at all. Its just that the game background doesn't lend
itself well (unless you play the kind of good vampire) to being a
hero. Call of Cthulhu, which has an equally depressing background,
does have a heroic theme - the humans wage a struggle against the
Things Man Was Not Meant To Know And Who'll Eat You For Lunch, knowing
that they'll lose. But at least they're trying.
Am I advocating that people don't play Vampire at all? Nope. I hate
censorship in any form. I just wish more people played the good kind
of vampire, as opposed to the other.
Bill Silvey
Reece Watkins <ree...@iwon.com> wrote in message
news:8o621m$9rsqh$1...@ID-45635.news.cis.dfn.de...
: Scott: Hmmm...as a born-again Christian and an RPG player since 1978, I
: thought I'd share a bit of my observations and experience with the system.
<snip sheer brilliance>
Reece, I insist - no, I *demand* that you continue to post in this thread.
We (by which I mean gamers who are also Christians) need insight like yours.
Spread the word!
- Bill.
Dr Nuncheon
Halaster Blackcloak <halaster_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>I gave up long ago trying to reach these lunatics, when I had a martial
>arts class I was teaching and a few of the older students and I played
>D&D. When one mother found out about it (she was a Jehovah Witness),
>she declared me a Satanist (actually "a powerful demon" were her exact
>words) and the Jehovahs in the area I live in declared martial arts and
>self defense classes "evil", and banned members from engaging in that
>type of activity.
Well, you know, practicing the martial arts opens up your body to demonic
infestation, too. It's all that worshiping of the sensei and the Buddha
that they force you to do. The demons like to cause lower back problems.
Oh, and they let you do things that are physically impossible for "normal"
people.
So it's really no surprise - between the martial arts classes and the
Dungeons and Dragons, you (and I, for that matter) are probably seething
masses of demonic infestation.
(It must be true, because I read it on the internet.)
PJS
Scott Thomlinson <gasp...@jscomm.net> wrote in message
news:k6mp5.95$rJ4....@eagle.america.net...
> I sent an email to Chick Publishing about their "Dark Dungeons" tract
> booklet. Just thought I'ld share their response to me.
--------
There is absolutely no point in debating with such people; that is the
lesson which should be drawn from the Weimar Republic's fall. It is clear
that they are a hate-mongering group who tell bare-faced lies in the service
of subjecting us all to a Taliban-style brutal theocratic dictatorship, and
that they must be opposed by any means necessary.
Pardon the political speech.
--
The Ox is like the Bamboo
Floating on the Ocean.
Halaster Blackcloak
je...@fnord.io.com (Dr Nuncheon) wrote:
>So it's really no surprise - between the martial arts classes and the
Dungeons and Dragons, you (and I, for that matter) are probably
seething masses of demonic infestation.
(It must be true, because I read it on the internet.)<
LOL! Don't get me started about the "it's true because I read it on the
net" thing. ;-) My favorite line in the movie "Night of the Living
Dead" (an appropriately evil movie for us possessed people), is where
the girlfriend says:
"Tom, are we really doing the right thing?"
And the boyfriend replies:
"Well, the TV said it was the right thing to do!"
Classic! ;-)
--
Halaster Blackcloak
"Undermountain, the Realms' deadliest dungeon? I prefer to call it
home."
"Elminster? Bah! Neophyte!"
PJS
BlakGard <blak...@aol.comspiracy> wrote in message
news:20000825024820...@ng-cd1.aol.com...
> >So, maybe this has been broached before, it's not a "D&D is Evil,
> >find God" thread. Just curious of others experiences in this area.
> >Are there any players on this group that actively practice religion?
>
> Yes, but it is hardly relevant... I'm Buddhist.
>
> However, my uncle, who is basically a non-practicing fundie, tells me all
of
> the time how D&D will, if I let it, "open up doors that lead only to
Satan."
> Then again, he also thinks that Buddhists are devil-worshippers.
--------
Which is something of a leap considering Buddhists don't worship anything.
PJS
Lizard <liz...@mrlizard.com> wrote in message
news:qv2dqskhai6pogobv...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 05:21:18 GMT, Jimmy Kerl <j...@icok.net> wrote:
>
> >I myself have ALWAYS detested the notion of real demon names and
> >references to real-world (usually "dark") religions in d&d.
>
> in D&D. It's like saying there are 'real' Vulcan names in Star Trek.
That's not the point; you might not believe in demons but that doesn't mean
it's impossible to have a "real demon" name, just as Legolas in LoTR is a
"real Elvish name" and Legolamb in BoTR is a "fake Elvish name".
ega...@my-deja.com
"R. Scott Rogers" <sro...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Scott, for posting that. I've never actually
> read any of the anti-gaming pamphlets. Never seen one,
> actually. An interesting read.
>
> The writer has quite an imagination, and a theological
> attitude that I had never before heard from a
> Christian. Mind, I do tend not to have evangelical
> friends. And I'm not a Christian myself, so my
> experience with the faith is perhaps not as extensive
> as it might be. But I've never before known a Christian
> to believe in the existence of gods other than God, and
> gods who can manifest their power in the physical world
> at that. With the proviso that some Christians do
> believe in the oppositional demigod of the Devil, an
> independent semi-supreme being who exercises divine
> powers independently of God.
>
You've hit the nail on the head - as a Christian myself, I can
confidently say that these people's beliefs are NOT representative of
accepted Christianity. Real Christianity does not deny that there is a
diabolical former angel called the devil who tried usurp God (dumb move
if you're just an angel), was defeated, and now tries to take humanity
down with him. The devil has power, but he ain't God, he's a fallen
angel, lower than God. In real Christianity, he is not the dualistic
opposite of God, that would be Zoroastrianism, another faith entirely.
The problem with whacko cults like the Chick people are that they give
the devil too much credit, and totally blur what Christianity is all
about. Not to spout theology at you, but real Christianity realizes
that the devil is already defeated because of the sacrifice Jesus made;
he's lost already. All he can do is take as many of us down with him.
He's got some power, but God's got more. I'm not afraid of the devil
like the Chick people are - he can't hurt me.
I'm just saying this to let you know that there are by far more normal,
real Christians out there than sometimes what shows up in groups like
these nutballs. Also, all this was FYI only. I'm not out here
preaching to convert; can you imagine it? -- "Can I get a witness!"
"Why yes. My soul was saved on a newsgroup! Thank God for Deja News!
Amen! Hallelujah!" :)
PJS
Henry J. Leckenby <hjle...@mtu.edu> wrote in message
news:sqdbjq...@corp.supernews.com...
If you believe in demons, then Asmodeus would be a real one (he is mentioned
in mediaeval grimoires and is supposedly the demon forced by Solomon to help
in the building of his temple) though none of the others really are. Dis
Pater was a Roman god of the underworld (equivalent to the Greek Pluto)
Baalzebub is Hebrew for "Lord of the Flies" and is a disparaging corruption
of a name of a Phoenician deity demonised by the Jews (nowadays sometimes
used as a synonym for Satan), Demogorgon was a poetical invention of the
17th century, Geryon is classical again, while Yeenoghu and Juiblex have
just been made up.
Staffan Johansson
Maloney) wrote:
>Go for the eyes, Boo, RUUUUSK! (Yes, I know what it's supposed to be, but
Giant Space Hamsters are the sole redeeming feature of tinker gnomes.
--
Staffan Johansson (bal...@crosswinds.net)
Reece Watkins
help I can.
God Bless,
Reece
"Bill Silvey" <mfinf...@mpinet.net> wrote in message
news:sqdegek...@corp.supernews.com...
Bryan J. Maloney
<hjle...@mtu.edu> wrote:
> Bryan J. Maloney <bj...@cornell.edu> wrote:
> : Asmodeus, Dispater, and others actually come from historical demonology.
>
> Dispater (Latin, literally "Father Night") comes from
> Roman mythology.
Dispater is also the name of a demon in medieval European demonology.
Check out the Divine Comedy (Inferno) for an example.
Bryan J. Maloney
<sro...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> existence of non-God gods. Yet this guy seems to be a
> polytheist who maintains not that his deity is the one
> and only supreme being but that his deity is the one
> most preferable supreme being.
The technical term for this is "henotheist". To make things even more
confusing, a lot of such people are also crypto-gnostics.
Bryan J. Maloney
> Sigh...as a committed Christian and gamer, I hate it when stupid fools
> like the Chick group make the rest of us Christians look bad.
>
> I've been role playing for over two decades now and I can't recall one
> instance where I've summoned Satan or sacrificed my neighbor's cat. In
> all seriousness, all this stuff does is give more fuel to the anti-
> Christians on this board who are already trashing my faith becaue of
> dicks like Jack Chick.
>
> To me, D&D and other roleplaying games are nothing more than pure,
> escapist FICTION. D&D is not the real world, for crying out loud!
Exactly: I Corinthians 8
Bryan J. Maloney
> "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote:
> >
> > In article <8o5bcm$v0a$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Halaster Blackcloak
> > <halaster_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.flash.net/~twinkle/psycho/DARK/chick/archive.html
> > >
> > > Don't try drinking naything carbonated while reading, you've been
> > > warned! ;-)
> >
> > I just wish that *I* had a DM that looked Miss Frost.
> >
> You and EVERYONE* who read that tract. I suspect it got more players to
> try D&D than to read the Bible. "Wow! Look at the HOT BABES who play
> D&D!"
>
> *Everyone defined as '90% of males and 10% of females', statistically
> speaking.
That's more of a Heortlander Orlanthi "all" than a Dragon Pass Orlanthi
"all", I would surmise...
Hawkmoon269
Dr Nuncheon <je...@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
news:Bjtp5.290056$t91.3...@news4.giganews.com...
> In article <4rrbqsg78ebk6radv...@4ax.com>,
> Cadillac Jones <cadi...@cadillac.com> wrote:
> >If hey can only find 11 instances of all the murders and suicides that
> >took place in America since 1975 having the remotest connection with
> >D&D what are they complaining about?
>
> Amusingly, none of them have been proven to have any connection to
> D&D.
>
> Even more amusingly, even if *all* of them were true and because of
> D&D...D&D players have a lower suicide rate then teens in general.
>
> J
>
Well, if we they wish to connect suicides to satanism and occult activity
then I eagerly await "Dentists, Oral Evil".....
Hawkmoon269
Nick Lambert <nic...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:39A65026...@cats.ucsc.edu...
> I am convinced that if I eat enough spiders, one day I will be able to
walk up my
> wall : )
>
Just make sure you get live next to a large nuclear reactor:)
> Anivair wrote:
>
> > I just mailed them too. I had a problem with a few of the things he
said
> > (mostly about "real magic" which i happen to have studied in depth and
which he
> > happned to be wrong about consistantly.
> >
> > Though my favorite was the bit about the spells being real. I got some
guano
> > and sulphur tonight, but no matter how many times i pointed my finger,
nothing
> > happned.
> >
> > --
> > later,
> > ~Anivair
> > Ani...@aol.com
>
>
>
Reece Watkins
"Bruce Grubb" <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote in message news:bgrubb-
> >Dungeons and Dragons is a tragic and tangled subject. It is essentially a
> >feeding program for occultism and witchcraft. For Christians, the first
> >scriptural problem is the fact that Dungeons and Dragons violates the
> >commandment of 1Ths. 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil."
>
> This is fatcually inaccurate: The standard tranlation 1Ths. 5:21-22 is
>
> "Test all things; hold fast what is good."
> "Abstain from every form of evil"
>
Dude, the KJV plainly says:
1Th:5:21: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th:5:22: Abstain from all appearance of evil.
--R.
Lizard
> Asmodeus, Dispater, and others actually come from historical demonology.
>
Which has no biblical basis. Even if one accepts that the Bible is the
revealed word of a particular god, it's hard to argue that every
incoherent work on 'demonology' written by half-crazed monks is likewise
so inspired. Best to lump it in with books 'dictated' by 'Ascended
Masters' or revelations from the 'Grays' receivied on tooth fillings.
cla...@mindspring.com
wrote:
>
>Lizard <liz...@mrlizard.com> wrote in message
>news:qv2dqskhai6pogobv...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 05:21:18 GMT, Jimmy Kerl <j...@icok.net> wrote:
>>
>> >I myself have ALWAYS detested the notion of real demon names and
>> >references to real-world (usually "dark") religions in d&d.
I dont have the post this was said in, so I will respond here.
What exactly is a "dark" religion?
>>
>> First off, since there are no demons, there are no 'real' demon names
>> in D&D. It's like saying there are 'real' Vulcan names in Star Trek.
>-------
>That's not the point; you might not believe in demons but that doesn't mean
>it's impossible to have a "real demon" name, just as Legolas in LoTR is a
>"real Elvish name" and Legolamb in BoTR is a "fake Elvish name".
>
cla...@mindspring.com
wrote:
>
>Henry J. Leckenby <hjle...@mtu.edu> wrote in message
>news:sqdbjq...@corp.supernews.com...
>> Bryan J. Maloney <bj...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>> : Asmodeus, Dispater, and others actually come from historical demonology.
>>
>> Dispater (Latin, literally "Father Night") comes from
>> Roman mythology.
>------
>If you believe in demons, then Asmodeus would be a real one (he is mentioned
>in mediaeval grimoires and is supposedly the demon forced by Solomon to help
>in the building of his temple) though none of the others really are. Dis
>Pater was a Roman god of the underworld (equivalent to the Greek Pluto)
My brain is frying here, but wasn't this "Hades"? If not, what's the
difference.
>Baalzebub is Hebrew for "Lord of the Flies" and is a disparaging corruption
>of a name of a Phoenician deity demonised by the Jews (nowadays sometimes
>used as a synonym for Satan), Demogorgon was a poetical invention of the
>17th century, Geryon is classical again, while Yeenoghu and Juiblex have
>just been made up.
Damn, I always liked Juiblex.
Dr Nuncheon
Reece Watkins <ree...@iwon.com> wrote:
>
>"Bruce Grubb" <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote in message news:bgrubb-
>> >Dungeons and Dragons is a tragic and tangled subject. It is essentially a
>> >feeding program for occultism and witchcraft. For Christians, the first
>> >scriptural problem is the fact that Dungeons and Dragons violates the
>> >commandment of 1Ths. 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil."
>>
>> This is fatcually inaccurate: The standard tranlation 1Ths. 5:21-22 is
>>
>> "Test all things; hold fast what is good."
>> "Abstain from every form of evil"
>
>Dude, the KJV plainly says:
From what I understand, the King James Bible is not widely regarded as an
exceedingly accurate translation.
Mind you, the 'factually inaccurate' claim might in itself be factually
inaccurate, if whoever wrote the quoted bit said they were quoting from
the KJV.
Henry J. Leckenby
: Henry J. Leckenby <hjle...@mtu.edu> wrote in message
: news:sqdbjq...@corp.supernews.com...
: > Bryan J. Maloney <bj...@cornell.edu> wrote:
: > : Asmodeus, Dispater, and others actually come from historical demonology.
: >
: > Dispater (Latin, literally "Father Night") comes from
: > Roman mythology.
: ------
: If you believe in demons, then Asmodeus would be a real one (he is mentioned
: in mediaeval grimoires and is supposedly the demon forced by Solomon to help
: in the building of his temple) though none of the others really are. Dis
: Pater was a Roman god of the underworld (equivalent to the Greek Pluto)
: of a name of a Phoenician deity demonised by the Jews (nowadays sometimes
: used as a synonym for Satan), Demogorgon was a poetical invention of the
: 17th century, Geryon is classical again, while Yeenoghu and Juiblex have
: just been made up.
Please forgive the loose parameters of my question. My
goal was to consider what are considered to be "real" demon names.
My base assumption was that "real" names, in evangelical lexicon,
would be like, "names mentioned in the Bible", which would be,
like, one.
To the general auidence:
IF you believe that demons exist, and IF you think that some of their
names are known, WHat is the source(s) you are using?
Harry Leckenby
PS My subtle point was that almost all the names were demonized deities
or just made up.
Reece Watkins
> In article <8o6i8j$a3t2v$1...@ID-45635.news.cis.dfn.de>,
> Reece Watkins <ree...@iwon.com> wrote:
>
> From what I understand, the King James Bible is not widely regarded as an
> exceedingly accurate translation.
It's not 100% accurate, but I've found it comes the closest without being
tainted by another four centuries of dogma.
>
> Mind you, the 'factually inaccurate' claim might in itself be factually
> inaccurate, if whoever wrote the quoted bit said they were quoting from
> the KJV.
It may be the RSV or the NIV, I don't know. I was only challenging the
"factually inaccurate" bit because, as bizarre as that tract was, it did
quote that verse verbatim from the KJV. Now as for using it in the proper
context...that's another matter.
Reece
Stephenls
> Bruce, your answer was superb. It's too bad that people like them
> wouldn't even bother to read it if you sent it to them. Arguing with
> those kinds of people is like arguing with a brick wall, only less
> fun. They have no concept of even *trying* to think rationally for a
> second, because if they do, they might have to question their faith.
> This is their normal process:
> A boy committed suicide.
> He had played D&D.
> Therefore, D&D made him do it.
> Therefore, D&D is evil and kills people.
<snip>
As well as:
This person is telling me that D&D is not evil.
I know that D&D is evil.
Therefore, this person is evil, and is trying to tempt me.
I can safely ignore everything this person says, because he is merely
saying what the Father of Lies wants him to.
This can be circular reasoned as:
This person is evil, and is trying to prove D&D is not evil. Ah HA!
MORE proof that D&D is evil.
--
Stephenls
Geek
Henry J. Leckenby
: I've been role playing for over two decades now and I can't recall one
: instance where I've summoned Satan or sacrificed my neighbor's cat. In
Me either; I'm pretty sure I would have remembered it.
: a heroic lone fighter in D&D fighting with my last ounce of strength to
: defend a village from a goblin onslaught than be an evil, murderous
: monster (ok, an evil angst-ridden murderous monster dressed stylishly
: in all black and afflicted with a terminal case of ennui. Thanks oh so
: much, White Wolf. Sheesh....)
Oh the Horror! Oh the Beast Within! (tm)
: So please, to all of those getting ready to trash Christianity for the
: idiotic assertions of one so-called "Christian" group, just know that
: what they're proposing isn't real Christianity. Anyone who wants to
: know what REAL Christianity is all about should read C.S. Lewis's "Mere
: Christianity". Its a deep read, but well worth it and I'm sure that
: the people on this board have more than sufficient brainpower to
: understand it.
I would recommend the Screwtape Letters, The Great Divorce,
or the Narnia books instead. His allegories are helpful, but
some of Mere Christianity was flawed by not realizing that he was
looking through the world through a set of Victorian England glasses.
Harry Leckenby
Patrick Berry
>
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 05:21:18 GMT, Jimmy Kerl <j...@icok.net> wrote:
>
> >I myself have ALWAYS detested the notion of real demon names and
> >references to real-world (usually "dark") religions in d&d.
>
> in D&D. It's like saying there are 'real' Vulcan names in Star Trek.
Try convincing raving nutters like Chick that there are no demons. The
fact that you deny their existence proves that you're either part of the
Evil Conspiracy, or brainwashed by Satan's minions.
> Second off, if you DO believe in demons, presumably biblically,
> consider this -- there's no Demogorgon, Orcus, or Jubilex in the
> Bible. Those name were culled from works of mythology written during
> the past two millennia, and thus, they are no more likely to be the
> names of 'real' demons than any other random set of syllables.
Sure, but real religious fanatics never actually look at the Bible.
They're already sure they know what it says.
> The worst thing you can accuse D&D of is shamelessly stealing names
> from varied myths, stripping them of context, and using them
> inappropriately.
You're never going to get anywhere with arguments like these; they're
too rational and fact-based. To a fundamentalist zealot, all myths are
False Religions, and therefore the work of the Devil. Incorporating
them into D&D is proof that the creators of D&D were servants of Satan,
and the fact that they changed the details proves that they were trying
to disguise the Satanic nature of the material as part of their Evil
Plot To Corrupt Our Children.
You're dealing with paranoid people here. Reasoning with them doesn't
work.
Bryan J. Maloney
<ree...@iwon.com> wrote:
> "Dr Nuncheon" <je...@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
> news:AjAp5.290603$t91.3104821@news4.giganews.com...
> > In article <8o6i8j$a3t2v$1...@ID-45635.news.cis.dfn.de>,
> > Reece Watkins <ree...@iwon.com> wrote:
> >
> > From what I understand, the King James Bible is not widely regarded as an
> > exceedingly accurate translation.
>
> It's not 100% accurate, but I've found it comes the closest without being
> tainted by another four centuries of dogma.
Just go to the Greek and Hebrew for exegesis.
The Sigil
> > So, maybe this has been broached before, it's not a "D&D is Evil, find God"
> > thread. Just curious of others experiences in this area. Are there any
> > players on this group that actively practice religion?
> >
> > Just would like to hear some other viewpoints on the subject.
>
> <snip>I know nothing of 1st edition but pleanty of 2nd so I
> realize by the things I am reading had to have been targeted at 1e. Maybe
> things were a bit iffy then but I still think if anyone killed themselves or
> others because of D&D it is because they were 1) Weak minded individuals who
> couldn't handle reality. 2) Sociopaths who were already heading down that
> road. and finally 3) Truly demon possessed.
I know plenty of 1st and 2nd editions both (I think I qualify as a member of the
OFC). I think it's interesting that Mr. Chick presents us with 12 examples of
people who do something heinous that were into D&D. IIRC, there are at least
3-5 million people in the world who have ever played D&D (that estimate may be
on the LOW side). So... 12 out of 3 million. That comes out to 0.0004%. I
would ask Mr. Chick how many people involved in born-again Christianity (as far
as I can tell, that seems to be his religious persuasion) have committed heinous
crimes. IIRC, typically about 0.1% of the population could be described as
having serious criminal problems. I'm going to make a leap and say a born again
Christian is, say 100 times less likely than anyone else to commit a crime (an
assumption I believe is bulls*** but just for fun let's do it). So 0.001% of
the Born-Again population is involved in heinous crimes. That tells me that, on
average, being a Born-Again Christian is 2.5 times more likely to lead you to
commit heinous crimes than being a member of the D&D playing community. I've
never heard of a study on this, but I would love to see:
1.) Percentage of "born-again Christians" that commit murder, arson, or attempt
suicide (or any other "heinous" crime).
2.) Percentage of D&D players that commit murder, arson, or attempt suicide.
My guess is you'll find it's FAR more "dangerous" to your "spiritual well-being"
to be a born-again Christian than to play D&D.
BTW, it reminds of somebody asking a Mormon leader about the danger of being a
Mormon missionary. IIRC, he quoted statistics that showed for a typical 20-year
old, there is no profession safer (lower mortality rate) than Mormon missions (I
think student might have been second). That was, to me, hilarious - here's a
group that always hears complaints about how they expose these guys to danger
and such, and they went to do the research to show how safe their programs
were... we ought to try the same thing with D&D vs. BAC. Again, I bet D&D
wins...
The Sigil
Patrick Berry
> I never had a direct confrontation with a church over RPGs. The
> Ministers at the Churces I've attended all knew I played, and I was
> always welcome at the Church. Heck, I taught Sunday school for two
> years at one and there was never any complaint.
I was introduced to D&D by people I met at the Presbyterian Student
Center at my university. They played the game in the PSC library, with
the knowledge and approval of the campus minister. Visiting the Baptist
Student Union at that same university, I met the woman I've been married
to for 17 years. She had been playing D&D for a couple of years, with
the knowledge and approval of the her father (a Baptist minister). We
played in some D&D games at the BSU too, with the knowledge and approval
of the BSU's campus minister.
There is no inherent conflict between religion and RPGs.
Patrick Berry
> D&D magic does, or at least did, try to emulate the _trappings_
> of real magic rituals to some extent (e.g. magic circles, lists
> of magical associations of various gems), but I've never seen
> anything in it that even approached allowing someone to perform
> an actual magical ritual. Of course, even if the DMG had
> straight excerpts of the Lemegeton, you have to be a bit of a
> stooge to think that doing magic rituals is really going to
> make magic happen. You can wave headless black chickens around
> all night, but it's not going to summon dread infernal powers to
> do your bidding or put a curse on your gym teacher.
This is the point that always make me laugh when people claim that D&D
is devil worship and the spells are real. I mean, D&D has now been
around for over 25 years, meaning that we gamers have allegedly had
access to Dark Powers for a quarter of a century. Shouldn't we have
taken over the world by now? Why isn't Gary Gygax in the White House,
or at least as rich and powerful as Bill Gates? If TSR was tapping into
dread infernal powers, why didn't that enable them to avoid bankruptcy?
If I sold my soul to Satan back in '78, why am I making payments on a
used Dodge Neon instead of riding in a limousine? And why, if I have
access to dark magic, can't I get the weeds out of my lawn and stop my
hairline from receding?
J.K. Rowling, on the other hand, clearly *has* made a pact with the
Devil. There's no other possible explanation for the unprecedented
success of the Harry Potter books. :)
Rich Humphreys
>
> "Dr Nuncheon" <je...@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
> news:AjAp5.290603$t91.3104821@news4.giganews.com...
> > In article <8o6i8j$a3t2v$1...@ID-45635.news.cis.dfn.de>,
> > Reece Watkins <ree...@iwon.com> wrote:
> >
> > From what I understand, the King James Bible is not widely regarded as
an
> > exceedingly accurate translation.
>
> It's not 100% accurate, but I've found it comes the closest without being
> tainted by another four centuries of dogma.
>
> >
> > inaccurate, if whoever wrote the quoted bit said they were quoting from
> > the KJV.
>
> It may be the RSV or the NIV, I don't know. I was only challenging the
> "factually inaccurate" bit because, as bizarre as that tract was, it did
> quote that verse verbatim from the KJV. Now as for using it in the proper
> context...that's another matter.
>
> Reece
The first form is word-for-word from the NKJV, my translation of choice;
we'll save that debate for another forum... but speaking of context:
"Do not quench the spirit. Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold
fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil." -1 Thes 5:19-22 NKJV
"Quench not the spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold
fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil." -1 Thes
5:19-22 KJV
False prophets were running around at this time spouting nonsense, and some
shut themselves off to prophets altogether. Obviously Paul didn't want this;
he was advising the Thessalonians to listen and test the words of all
would-be prophets. Unless your DM is also a prophet in his spare time, the
verse given is somewhat being misused in any translation.
Churchrat
Bruce Grubb
>In article <bgrubb-5903FB....@www.zianet.com>, Bruce Grubb
><bgr...@zianet.com> wrote:
>
>> "The teaching of the youth to appreciate the value of the community,
>> derives its strongest inner power from the truths of Christianity...
>> For this reason it will always be my special duty to safeguard the
>> right and free development of the Christian school and the
>> Christian fundamentals of all education."
>>
>> Sounds like a good idea until you find who said those words: Adolf Hitler
>
>The same one who had nuns, priests, and ministers hanged as soon as they
>got to be inconvenient...
Chrsitianity did the same thing. Many orders were condomed for haresy so
local Church of King could clain their wealth.
Bryan J. Maloney
Dispater actually has a more august lineage than some people might
realize. While he was considered to be a demon at least by the time of
Dante (14th century), Dispater is actually a remnant of a being that is
posited to be the original proto-Indo-European sky-god, *deiwos patér.
This *deiwos patér appears in many Indo-European religions, including, but
not limited to:
Greek: Zeus Pater
Latin: Jupiterus and Dispater (there's an assimilation story behind that one)
Hindu: Dyaus Pitar
Illyrian: Deipaturas
Latvian: Debess téus
Luwian: Tiwaz tatio
Bryan J. Maloney
<hjle...@mtu.edu> wrote:
> IF you believe that demons exist, and IF you think that some of their
> names are known, WHat is the source(s) you are using?
The majority of names of demons are from the Hebrew midrashic tradition.
Bryan J. Maloney
> "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote:
>
> > Asmodeus, Dispater, and others actually come from historical demonology.
> >
> Which has no biblical basis. Even if one accepts that the Bible is the
For your argument to hold water, one must adhere to Sola Scriptura, which
is an exclusively Protestant doctrine. Not all Christians are
Protestants. Likewise, not all Jews are Protestants...
Jimmy Kerl
> >> >I myself have ALWAYS detested the notion of real demon names and
> >> >references to real-world (usually "dark") religions in d&d.
>
> I dont have the post this was said in, so I will respond here.
>
> What exactly is a "dark" religion?
I didnt have a good word for it so i used dark (in quotes to denote that
the word wasnt exactly right) what i meant is the general
grouping of religions that believe in summoning and/or conjuring
evil powers for whatever reasons.
Expermentation with such i feel is dangerous. (as i believe such is often
really the summoning of demons and other evil spirits.)
AS ive stated; you may or agree or disagree thats fine. But i believe
that such things are dangerous and thus should be avoided.
That said, as others have pointed out there is little that could
truley be done with D&D to actually do such expermentation; and
more typically i'd think people interested in such things only
use (early editions) of d&d more like a stepping stone for
their curiosity. Ie. the real problem isn't with d&d so much
as with the occult. But, i never liked the posibility that D&D
could provide this (minorty with respect to actual gamers) of
people a mechanisim for being introduced to the ways and
methods of these religions.
Jimmy
(hoping ive kept it explanitory and not argumanitive)
& still in general agrement that the chick track people are
at least mostly full of BS
Rich Humphreys
"Henry J. Leckenby" <hjle...@mtu.edu> wrote in message
news:sqdlir...@corp.supernews.com...
> ega...@my-deja.com wrote:
> : I've been role playing for over two decades now and I can't recall one
> : instance where I've summoned Satan or sacrificed my neighbor's cat. In
>
> Me either; I'm pretty sure I would have remembered it.
Not necessarily. It seems we are to involved in this genre to see its
corruption. "Brainwashed", I believe.
Churchrat
Bruce Grubb
>"Bruce Grubb" <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote in message news:bgrubb-
>> >Dungeons and Dragons is a tragic and tangled subject. It is essentially a
>> >feeding program for occultism and witchcraft. For Christians, the first
>> >scriptural problem is the fact that Dungeons and Dragons violates the
>> >commandment of 1Ths. 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil."
>>
>> This is fatcually inaccurate: The standard tranlation 1Ths. 5:21-22 is
>>
>> "Test all things; hold fast what is good."
>> "Abstain from every form of evil"
>Dude, the KJV plainly says:
>
>1Th:5:21: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
>1Th:5:22: Abstain from all appearance of evil.
WRONG My quotes are take straight The Scofield Bible the New King James
Version. SInce my quotes come from a King James Bible the King James says
NOT SUCH THING **D U D E**.
Bruce Grubb
<ree...@iwon.com> wrote:
>"Dr Nuncheon" <je...@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
>news:AjAp5.290603$t91.3104821@news4.giganews.com...
>> In article <8o6i8j$a3t2v$1...@ID-45635.news.cis.dfn.de>,
>> Reece Watkins <ree...@iwon.com> wrote:
>>
>> From what I understand, the King James Bible is not widely regarded as an
>> exceedingly accurate translation.
>
>It's not 100% accurate, but I've found it comes the closest without being
>tainted by another four centuries of dogma.
>
>>
>> Mind you, the 'factually inaccurate' claim might in itself be factually
>> inaccurate, if whoever wrote the quoted bit said they were quoting from
>> the KJV.
>
>It may be the RSV or the NIV, I don't know.
Accually my citation come from a King James Bible: The Scofield Study Bible.
So Dr Nuncheon should change his name to Captain Clueless as the citations
come straight from a King James Bible.
Bruce Grubb
<le...@NOnwlinkSPAM.com> wrote:
>The unfortunate translation of Bruce's Vogon Poetry reading from Fri, 25 Aug
>2000 07:08:38 -0600 reached theears of the unsuspecting...
>>
>>[great response snipped]
>
>Bruce, your answer was superb. It's too bad that people like them wouldn't
>even bother to read it if you sent it to them. Arguing with those kinds of
>people is like arguing with a brick wall, only less fun.
Tru but the important part is thaty must be fought less we go back to the
early 1980s where a lot of police manpower and tax payers money went down rat
holes to look for non existant Gothic Satanic cults and influcence public
policy for nearly a decade and still has influence now.
>A boy committed suicide.
>He had played D&D.
>Therefore, D&D made him do it.
>Therefore, D&D is evil and kills people.
As I said Christianity is evil by this morally bankrupt logic.
Bruce Grubb
>It's interesting that this exact same Troxy hit the GURPS newsgroup and
>got hardly a belch in response...
Because GURPS is not even on these loonys radar screen. One advantage GURPS
has is that it covers *all* genere which would include the 1st century Rome,
Crusades, the 1400-1700 period and all the dard periods in christianity.
Another advantage is most GURPS worldbooks have a host of reference and
sourse material effectively give a defender of GURPS two or more pages of
references to blast the Anti-RPG clear out of the water.
Dirk Collins
we get rid of automobiles. 50,000 people a year are killed or injured
in automobile accidents every year in this country alone. Chick
publishing should start somewhere, maybe the major auto companies
Ford, GM, Toyota, VW. However it is much easier to pick
on some 22 year old kid that never hurt a fly who happened to put his
life savings into opening a gaming shop. And they call themselves
christians. Pleeease...
Regards,
Dirk
Scott Thomlinson wrote:
>
> I sent an email to Chick Publishing about their "Dark Dungeons"
> tract booklet. Just thought I'ld share their response to me.