Sucessfully Powering Down a Campaign
JamesStein
characters are simply too powerful. With the group being at level 9 ( a
level 9 fighter, a level 7/8 dual'd fighter/thief, a level 9/10/9
fighter/priest/mage, and a level 7/9 dual'd priest/necromancer, and not
included in the below cited event, a level 10 fighter),
We destroyed a pair of 18 HD Iron Golems, followed by a mature black dragon,
followed by a Balor, within a span of 10 minutes. No-one had to crack out a
potion of healing.
At this point ( well, the day after ) I began to bitch to my DM. I really
don't like calling it bitching - I don't consider myself a whiney player -
but I'm pretty sure that's what I was doing. I was arguing the case that the
campaign is just TOO powerful. We're level 9, this shouldn't be in our realm
of abilities. We're at the point where the level 10 fighter and the
priest/necromancer, together, took out a 50 HD Reptilian Gargantua at max HP
within 3 rounds.
Yes, I know I'm playing one of the high-HP MI-toting PC's... but I really
enjoy the challenge and RP more than I do the big combat and being...well,
god-like.
So, now we're rolling HP, instead of gaining max ( meaning the fighters are
now rolling 1d10 per level, instead of just getting a flat 10 HP/level ),
and I'm plotting with the DM on how to destroy our Magic Items ( our next
SL will be taking place primarily on another continent, which is entirely a
dead magic zone, and the natives there have developed firearms, so our armor
becomes much less useful ).
I don't yet know how this will turn out, but I'm praying it will turn out
well.
Any suggestions on how to successfully turn this into a good SL, which will
bring the characters back into the range of normalcy, without leaving the
muns feeling deprived of everything their characters earned?
Anyone have the same experiences?
--
--
--------------------------------------------------------
"How did you get so Smart?"
"Oh, I read eight or nine books a week.
... Also, I do a lot of speed"
Dalton Dietz
"JamesStein" <James...@si.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Q9VX7.262691$XA5.43...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
By my calculations, your average party level is far greater than 9th. You
have a 15th, 16th, and if I understand you correctly, a 28th level
character. The challenges you faced shouldn't be all that daunting with a
group like that. Also, why have you been giving the fighters a flat 10 hps
per level? Max out the hps at 1st level only. I would ask your DM to include
more NPC challenges. When drawn up and ran properly, a group of high level
wizards, clerics, and fighters can be lethal.
I would suggest holding off on the plots to destroy PC magic items. The loss
of such things as a natural consequence of a challenge is fine, but when the
DM resolves to rid the PCs of their treasures, well, that's a little
unnecessary.
DD
Jeremy Reaban
the
> characters are simply too powerful. With the group being at level 9
( a
> level 9 fighter, a level 7/8 dual'd fighter/thief, a level 9/10/9
> fighter/priest/mage, and a level 7/9 dual'd priest/necromancer, and
not
> included in the below cited event, a level 10 fighter),
You should be playing Synnibarr (or Rifts).
Seriously, you're playing 2e, right? The dual class (and multi-class,
to a certain extent) is a bit overpowered in it. So those characters
are much tougher than the typical characters of that level...
Anyhow, there is not necessarily a need to power down the campaign.
Just power up the opposition. Or alter the game from one of combat to
placing an emphasis on something else.
Ray Randolph Ralph May
Me a 9th level worior the others a 10/10 dual fighter/mage drow, a 9/9 dual
shadowmage/thief drow and a 9th lvl priest
we came with the idea to inhabit a forgotten ruined castle and to rebuild it
to our needs. (at 10th lvl the worior gained followers etc). it was
impossible to get large amounts of marble and labourers etc to such a remote
erea without drawing attention so we asked the help of genies who can build
it really fast too. it cost us a great amount of treasure (and magicitems)
after that we had to buy armors, weapons and other equipment for the castle,
we new we had to get rid of several items who were to hot and were alot of
people where looking for so we disguised ourselfs and whent to the yearly
mage fare where we sold them for some very rare spells (on scroll) to
protect and obfuscate the whereabouts of our castle .like you we made some
powerful enemies by slaying a good lich and a brass dragon. we also equiped
some of or followers and henchmen with some of our magical weapons and now
we're all reasonably cleaned of or excessive treasure and magicitems without
the feeling of being deprived of everything our characters earned.
--
--
--------------------------------------------------------
"I read eight or nine books a week
Shit, you're on to me ;))"
Richard L. Pilliard II
Dalton Dietz wrote:
> "JamesStein" <James...@si.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:Q9VX7.262691$XA5.43...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
> > A problem I've noticed with a campaign I play in, recently, was that the
> > characters are simply too powerful. With the group being at level 9 ( a
> > level 9 fighter, a level 7/8 dual'd fighter/thief, a level 9/10/9
> > fighter/priest/mage, and a level 7/9 dual'd priest/necromancer, and not
> > included in the below cited event, a level 10 fighter),
>
-snip-
>
> By my calculations, your average party level is far greater than 9th. You
> have a 15th, 16th, and if I understand you correctly, a 28th level
> character. The challenges you faced shouldn't be all that daunting with a
> group like that. Also, why have you been giving the fighters a flat 10 hps
> per level? Max out the hps at 1st level only. I would ask your DM to include
> more NPC challenges. When drawn up and ran properly, a group of high level
> wizards, clerics, and fighters can be lethal.
-snip-
He's talking 2E, where a lv 9/10/9 f/p/m was only considered a 10th lv
character- and only had the hit points slightly less than that of the priest...
Varl
> He's talking 2E, where a lv 9/10/9 f/p/m was only considered a 10th lv
> character- and only had the hit points slightly less than that of the priest...
I don't think he's talking 2e necessarily. Nowhere does he specify which
edition he's using, in fact when I first read his post, I thought he was
talking 3e. The 9/10/9 sounds like a separate character to me from the
10th level fighter, however.
That being said, I think the DM in his campaign needs to get a better
feel for weighing character abilities against the campaign. He needs to
take stock in what they can and cannot do, their strengths and their
weaknesses. I hope they have weaknesses, as every character should have
something they're not good at or might be vulnerable to. Many times, the
ability to challenge high level characters doesn't always rest in the
biggest monster you can throw at them.
--
The best interpretation of a rule is the one you make yourself.
Chad Lubrecht
>"Richard L. Pilliard II" wrote:
>
>> He's talking 2E, where a lv 9/10/9 f/p/m was only considered a 10th lv
>> character- and only had the hit points slightly less than that of the priest...
>
>I don't think he's talking 2e necessarily. Nowhere does he specify which
>edition he's using, in fact when I first read his post, I thought he was
>talking 3e. The 9/10/9 sounds like a separate character to me from the
>10th level fighter, however.
He mentions dual-classing, a 2nd edition term. And the fact that he
has double and triple classed characters with the levels he does
implies that he's using the 2nd edition rules on multiclassing.
JamesStein
JamesStein
>
> By my calculations, your average party level is far greater than 9th. You
> have a 15th, 16th, and if I understand you correctly, a 28th level
> character. The challenges you faced shouldn't be all that daunting with a
> group like that.
As I just said in a (hastily posted) message, this is a 2E game - so a
10/10/10 character is level 10.
Also, why have you been giving the fighters a flat 10 hps
> per level? Max out the hps at 1st level only. I would ask your DM to
include
> more NPC challenges. When drawn up and ran properly, a group of high level
> wizards, clerics, and fighters can be lethal.
Max HP/level is a house rule that just stuck after a previous campaign we
played in. The Old DM's SL's weren't all that good - she liked to constantly
divide up the PC's and get them to the point of killing each other - and the
Muns as well (She was a real bitch - if the Muns were getting along, she
wasn't happy). So... in that game, the balance wasn't as much an issue,
since most of the pc's were fighters, combatting each other at Max HP.
And...yes, we are quite lethal... but far more lethal than we Should be. A
balor took only 2 rounds to kill - and likely would have taken less if our
rolls hadn't been crapping out.
>
> I would suggest holding off on the plots to destroy PC magic items. The
loss
> of such things as a natural consequence of a challenge is fine, but when
the
> DM resolves to rid the PCs of their treasures, well, that's a little
> unnecessary.
Unfortunately, the DM gave out too many strong MI's to start with - and, I
think it's time that he fix his own mistake. I myself can say that my
character is just too damn strong - he can take over the world, if he wished
to (His army currently consists of 300,000 foot soldier zombies, 10,000 foot
soldier skeletons, 75 Juggarnaut golems, he has 200 smokepowder cannons,
6,000 human foot soldiers[mounted, european chargers], 2,000 archers
[mounted, asiatic ponies], 100 warriors-polymorphed-Dragons, and his
familiar is a Great Wyrm Brass Dragon) - and his patron, under whose
protection he created this army ... is just so powerful that the DM won't
tell us what he is, save to say that he can destroy the entire army on a
whim. I'm at this point volunteering to retire the character into NPC-hood,
simply because he's too powerful to be in my hands.
Quentin Stephens
news:Q9VX7.262691$XA5.43...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com:
> A problem I've noticed with a campaign I play in, recently, was
> that the characters are simply too powerful.
<snip>
One thing I note is that you're having encounters with single foes.
I'd suggest that your DM needs to confront you with a team. Why didn't
that balor have a horde of mooks (cannon-fodder) and some moderate-
level lackeys? Even a group of 4th level clerics with Hold Person and
Protection From Good would help.
Do you play Item Saving Throws? What's the churn rate of your magic
items?
Mumbly <
@typhoon.nyc.rr.com:
A properly played Rust Monster could solve some of the problems quite
nicely. :-)
Tim Martin
>
>Any suggestions on how to successfully turn this into a good SL, which will
>bring the characters back into the range of normalcy, without leaving the
>muns feeling deprived of everything their characters earned?
>
>Anyone have the same experiences?
Yep, right over here! My campaign powered up pretty fast, with the players
in one day killing a roc and a dragon turtle. Quickly I realized that the
campaign was going to be able, at least when the group was together, pretty
much most monsters on Toril. So what did I do (and what do I suggest)?
Get them involved in poltics! No matter how high level the PCs, how many
bonsues the warrior's sword has, how might the wizard is, they can't always
win in that arena, certainly not by force alone (if they are good that is,
and well, even if they aren't). The vast majority of my campaign featured
politics heavily, with the PCs setting up one nation in the Whamite Islands
and another PC trying to win a civil war in Gulthmere (see my post in the
Faerie in a Campaign thread). Politics was by no means boring; forming
aliances, recruting troops and them supporting them, setting up a working
economy to support their grand plans, it was a blast.
Be glad to supply more details, I try to encourage high level political
campaigns. To me, it is the only logical way for them to go.
Tim
Tim Martin
>
>Unfortunately, the DM gave out too many strong MI's to start with - and, I
>think it's time that he fix his own mistake. I myself can say that my
>character is just too damn strong - he can take over the world, if he
wished
>to (His army currently consists of 300,000 foot soldier zombies, 10,000
foot
>soldier skeletons, 75 Juggarnaut golems, he has 200 smokepowder cannons,
>6,000 human foot soldiers[mounted, european chargers], 2,000 archers
>[mounted, asiatic ponies], 100 warriors-polymorphed-Dragons, and his
>familiar is a Great Wyrm Brass Dragon) - and his patron, under whose
>protection he created this army ... is just so powerful that the DM won't
>tell us what he is, save to say that he can destroy the entire army on a
>whim. I'm at this point volunteering to retire the character into NPC-hood,
>simply because he's too powerful to be in my hands.
>
Wow. Do you know how I would deal with that? How is he paying those human
foot soldiers? What is their morale with having to work with so many undead?
Brass dragons are good aligned, what does it think with working with so many
undead? Heck, a great wyrm would want to take this operation over, as IMC a
great wyrm was about the equivalent of several high level characters.
What do the surrouding nations, city-states, and empires think of this?
Sure, the PC can take on any other PC, group of PCs, party-sized group of
NPCs, or single or small group of monsters. But what about a war launched by
the neighboring countries to stamp out such a threat? Maybe is affront to
the deities of these neighboring states to have so many undead, maybe they
don't like such a threat on their doorstep. Remember, they don't have to do
a frontal assault; they can destroy the PCs croplands and lines of supply,
scare off those who are selling goods to this undead lord.
And speaking of undead lord, seems to me every necromancer, vampire lord, or
lich queen would want to take that operation over. So what if the PCs could
manage to hold their place there, would they want to after several attacks?
Easy to fix IMC.
Tim
Hugh Neilson
wrote:
Could be (and I think it is) second edition. In which case the "roll,
not max" hit points will have little impact as most of the characters
have already gained most of their rolling levels, and will only gain
flat numbers of hit points per level from here on in anyway. A better
answer may be two choices: roll your hit points (from L2 on) or all
the opposition is also gifted with maximum hit points. Either option
levels the playing field somewhat.
>The challenges you faced shouldn't be all that daunting with a
>group like that. Also, why have you been giving the fighters a flat 10 hps
>per level? Max out the hps at 1st level only. I would ask your DM to include
>more NPC challenges. When drawn up and ran properly, a group of high level
>wizards, clerics, and fighters can be lethal.
And they can have all the same advantages the player characters
have...
JamesStein
>
> Could be (and I think it is) second edition. In which case the "roll,
> not max" hit points will have little impact as most of the characters
> have already gained most of their rolling levels, and will only gain
> flat numbers of hit points per level from here on in anyway. A better
> answer may be two choices: roll your hit points (from L2 on) or all
> the opposition is also gifted with maximum hit points. Either option
> levels the playing field somewhat.
Actually, that's what I was referring to - rerolling all Hit Points from
level 1 onward.
Scott Schimmel
>At this point ( well, the day after ) I began to bitch to my DM. I really
>don't like calling it bitching - I don't consider myself a whiney player -
>but I'm pretty sure that's what I was doing. I was arguing the case that the
>campaign is just TOO powerful. We're level 9, this shouldn't be in our realm
>of abilities. We're at the point where the level 10 fighter and the
>priest/necromancer, together, took out a 50 HD Reptilian Gargantua at max HP
>within 3 rounds.
>
>Yes, I know I'm playing one of the high-HP MI-toting PC's... but I really
>enjoy the challenge and RP more than I do the big combat and being...well,
>god-like.
I suggest you talk your GM into ending the current campaign and
starting another, perhaps even in the same world, with brand-new
characters. In the last few sessions, the old characters can be
rewarded with rank in one form or another (the thief might become
guildmaster of a certain territory, the fighter-types be granted -- or
conquer -- a small barony/kingdom/island/country of their own or
become masters-of-arms for an existing country, the mage/priest could
found his own temple or become a member of the Council of Archmagi, or
whatever.) This sort of reward means that the characters made a
lasting impact on the world, even as they're being removed from play
and made high-level NPCs.
(Not that that has to happen. A high-level game focused on politics
can be lots of fun. But I'm assuming you want to return to a
low-powered but standard adventuring format.)
If you must keep your old characters and -not- move into politics,
then it can still be done, but it'll be tricky. For starters,
implement item saving throws if you haven't already. That should
eventually start getting rid of those overpowered magic items,
especially if your opponents include things like vampire mages,
liches, dragons, and devils. Second, you seem to be going up against
a lot of powerful but individual threats... your GM should be throwing
teams at you. That balor should have had a couple of lesser demons
and/or evil priests around, and maybe a flock of cannon-fodder like
orcs, goblins, or 0- or 1st-level human followers. Dragons will have
minions, too, either charmed or bribed or just serving out of
self-preservation or lust for power. A band of NPC adventurers is
always a good challenge... drow are even worse. For that matter, a
fairly small group of kobolds using traps, poison, and guerilla
tactics can decimate an overconfident party of 10th-level types; if
your party is used to just blasting away at the opposition, they could
be in real trouble. And nothing teaches a group of high-level
adventurers humility like getting knocked out, stripped of all
possessions, and left hogtied by a bunch of kobolds. ^_-
Threats that turn the party against each other are good, too. Charm
Person-type effects and Magic Jar could be devastating. Dopplegangers
are always good, too.
And if personal power is a concern, those evil priests who are with
the balor could have their own minions... a bunch of wraiths, say.
Though it's kind of a mean thing to do. ^_-
Scott Schimmel * Ex ignorantia ad sapientium;
http://schimmel.sandwich.net * ex luce ad tenebras.
"You really aren't normal, are you?" - Miki Koishikawa
Kaos
wrote:
>A problem I've noticed with a campaign I play in, recently, was that the
>characters are simply too powerful. With the group being at level 9 ( a
>level 9 fighter, a level 7/8 dual'd fighter/thief, a level 9/10/9
>fighter/priest/mage, and a level 7/9 dual'd priest/necromancer, and not
>included in the below cited event, a level 10 fighter),
This must be second edition?
>So, now we're rolling HP, instead of gaining max ( meaning the fighters are
>now rolling 1d10 per level, instead of just getting a flat 10 HP/level ),
Too late for that: in 2e after level 9, you stop rolling for hitpoints
and get a flat bonus (3 for fighters, 1 for wizards, not sure about
the rest though.)
--
This is usenet.
Truth is secondary to Presentation.
Kaos
>"Richard L. Pilliard II" wrote:
>
>> He's talking 2E, where a lv 9/10/9 f/p/m was only considered a 10th lv
>> character- and only had the hit points slightly less than that of the priest...
>
>I don't think he's talking 2e necessarily. Nowhere does he specify which
>edition he's using, in fact when I first read his post, I thought he was
>talking 3e. The 9/10/9 sounds like a separate character to me from the
>10th level fighter, however.
In 3e, a 9/10/9 character would have 28 character-levels - well above
the rest of the party, virtually unexplainable by 3e XP rules, and
well into using epic level rules rather than standard levels.
It's a safe guess that he's in 2e instead, where most of those issues
disappear.
Kaos
<tf_m...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>Unfortunately, the DM gave out too many strong MI's to start with - and, I
>>think it's time that he fix his own mistake. I myself can say that my
>>character is just too damn strong - he can take over the world, if he
>wished
>>to (His army currently consists of 300,000 foot soldier zombies, 10,000
>foot
>>soldier skeletons, 75 Juggarnaut golems, he has 200 smokepowder cannons,
>>6,000 human foot soldiers[mounted, european chargers], 2,000 archers
>>[mounted, asiatic ponies], 100 warriors-polymorphed-Dragons, and his
>>familiar is a Great Wyrm Brass Dragon) - and his patron, under whose
>>protection he created this army ... is just so powerful that the DM won't
>>tell us what he is, save to say that he can destroy the entire army on a
>>whim. I'm at this point volunteering to retire the character into NPC-hood,
>>simply because he's too powerful to be in my hands.
NPC-hood? Seriously, you should have him make a bid for God-hood.
One last bang to use up all that power, a lasting effect on the world,
and an explanation for his retirement at the peak of his power.
Quentin Stephens
news:R53Y7.116794$BX4.7...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com:
> The vast majority of my campaign featured
> politics heavily, with the PCs setting up one nation in the
> Whamite Islands and another PC trying to win a civil war in
> Gulthmere (see my post in the Faerie in a Campaign thread).
> Politics was by no means boring; forming aliances, recruting
> troops and them supporting them, setting up a working economy to
> support their grand plans, it was a blast.
When I resorted to this, it really only mattered when things came to a
(bloody) head. Sure there's politics, but there's also action (qv
Klausvitz)
Tim Martin
Kaos wrote in message ...
GAH! You cut out everything I wrote! Everything snipped! Bad! Very bad!
Tim
Tim Martin
>
>NPC-hood? Seriously, you should have him make a bid for God-hood.
>One last bang to use up all that power, a lasting effect on the world,
>and an explanation for his retirement at the peak of his power.
>
That is a valid suggestion, but not as good as the ones I offered which you
snipped.
Seriously, that sort of power couldn't last more than a few weeks. God-hood?
Maybe, but not for the PC in question. Either 1) the PC simply can't
maintain that sort of power for the reasons I previously listed, or 2)
someone will take it from him. I could think of several undead lords that
would like such an army, or even the great wyrm he lists, which he so
blithely assumes will be OK with be subservient to such an upstart mortal,
particularly a mortal being who won't live a hundreth as long as the dragon
would. God-hood, I guess, but not for that PC if anyone.
Sorry for the rant, I just thought I had a good post, and never care much
for when it is gets completely ignored, or some thread springs off of it
from what I thought was either a very minor point or something I didn't even
say.
Tim
Duane VP
dragon,
> followed by a Balor, within a span of 10 minutes. No-one had to crack out
a
> potion of healing.
>
> Yes, I know I'm playing one of the high-HP MI-toting PC's... but I really
> enjoy the challenge and RP more than I do the big combat and being...well,
> god-like.
>
> So, now we're rolling HP, instead of gaining max ( meaning the fighters
are
> now rolling 1d10 per level, instead of just getting a flat 10 HP/level ),
BING! Of _course_ you're going to be cakewalking over normal challenges
when your characters, instead of getting hit point totals that are close to
AVERAGE, are all at maximum. It only gives you approximately twice the
normal amount of staying power after all. You have to _ask_ about something
like that? :-)
> and I'm plotting with the DM on how to destroy our Magic Items ( our next
> SL will be taking place primarily on another continent, which is entirely
a
> dead magic zone, and the natives there have developed firearms, so our
armor
> becomes much less useful ).
Without knowing what kind of magic you are toting around it's impossible
to render an opinion as to whether it's too much or not, but I suspect it
probably is if you're walking about with as much as twice normal hit point
spreads.
"Taking away" magical items is a tricky process at best regardless of a
DM's best intentions. Simply having large amounts of it stolen, destroyed,
or confiscated is likely to create bad attitudes. See below...
> Anyone have the same experiences?
Once. There was once a high-powered campaign I was in (1E) where the DM
decided it could stand to be taken down a peg or two to bring back a bit of
the challenge. He just told us that this was his intention and gave his
reasons for doing it. We were at a juncture of the campaign where this
could be explained by campaign events (we had all died and the gods were
putting us back together for 10 years.) He then set a GP limit for what
magic items we could keep - specifically, we were allowed to keep a % value
of what we already had but were allowed to "buy" _any_ item (no artifacts)
within that limit and take the balance in cash.
It worked _very_ well. Nobody got angry because everybody was in the
same boat. We were able to keep items that we felt were central to our
characters. Everybody knew and understood what was happening and why. If
anybody disagreed with the reasoning they didn't say and most people vocally
DID agree that the power level could be toned down a few notches to get back
some of the challenge without unduly escalating the monsters.
I think it's a good model to use. State the reasons in no uncertain
terms and just have characters trim their items by choice. Of course, if
the DM can engineer in-game reasoning for the power reduction that would be
great but as long as any nemeses the PC's still have roaming around are
appropriately downgraded at the same time the sudden change shouldn't really
affect the campaign in any but positive ways.
--
Duane VanderPol
God Bless the USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp
gr...@arduin-delos.com
wrote:
>
>
>>
I agree those would be realistic outcomes (unless the rest of the world is
as inflated as the army). However as GM I wouldn't consider implementing
them as 'easy'.
For one thing, they'd probably be all happening at the same time. The
undead lords and wyrms trying to take over, the other kingdoms massing....
If I tried to play this out at all, I might have the Demon Xanth(sp?)
summon the principals to some sort of 'single' combat in his court, with
court-destroying weapons checked at the door. Hm, in an Old Star Trek,
everyone would just wake up in separate rooms and go around meeting each
other and eventually figure out why they were all there.... Or maybe they'd
find out they were in Amber....
Graf
-----------------------------------------------------
Graf D.V.B.G.S. Posvalsky of Delos -- "Arduin Lives!"
Grimoires IV-VIII at http://www.arduin-delos.com or http://www.dragontree.com
Also Dragon Tree's World of Delos 'grimoires' -- all universally compatible.
Magicalist
All the technical details aside, I don't think it is right that you are
actually
plotting with the DM. As a player, you character should not have the
knowlege of what is about to happen and intentionally guiding the rest
into a trap. That's real life roleplaying, not within the game.
You don't even want to know how the group that's used to power is
going to react to using all their stuff. The last thing you want is for the
game to be left with only the DM and the mole.
As a alternative, you can suggest the DM to power up the opposition or
start putting more complicated plots that can't simply be solved with
firepower.
--
If you don't trust a magician on the Internet, who can you trust?
Tim Martin
>
>
>I agree those would be realistic outcomes (unless the rest of the world is
>as inflated as the army). However as GM I wouldn't consider implementing
>them as 'easy'.
Perhaps. It would be an interesting evening to be sure. Bet though I could
fix the problem with one long evening session.
>
>For one thing, they'd probably be all happening at the same time. The
>undead lords and wyrms trying to take over, the other kingdoms massing....
Oh no doubt, many things occuring at once. Probably all of the above things;
mortal nations massing, the dragon doing the coup thing, undead lords
knocking on the door, human troops rebelling...
>
>If I tried to play this out at all, I might have the Demon Xanth(sp?)
>summon the principals to some sort of 'single' combat in his court, with
>court-destroying weapons checked at the door. Hm, in an Old Star Trek,
>everyone would just wake up in separate rooms and go around meeting each
>other and eventually figure out why they were all there.... Or maybe they'd
>find out they were in Amber....
>
I could see that. Basically one deity shows up and says, hmm, so you want to
be a god, well let's go one on one. Perhaps a bit TNN for me, but could
work. :-)
Tim
Mike Schneider
"Duane VP" <dua...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Anyone have the same experiences?
>
> Once. There was once a high-powered campaign I was in (1E) where the DM
> decided it could stand to be taken down a peg or two to bring back a bit of
> the challenge. He just told us that this was his intention and gave his
> reasons for doing it. We were at a juncture of the campaign where this
> could be explained by campaign events (we had all died and the gods were
> putting us back together for 10 years.) He then set a GP limit for what
> magic items we could keep - specifically, we were allowed to keep a % value
> of what we already had but were allowed to "buy" _any_ item (no artifacts)
> within that limit and take the balance in cash.
> It worked _very_ well. Nobody got angry because everybody was in the
> same boat. We were able to keep items that we felt were central to our
> characters. Everybody knew and understood what was happening and why. If
> anybody disagreed with the reasoning they didn't say and most people vocally
> DID agree that the power level could be toned down a few notches to get back
> some of the challenge without unduly escalating the monsters.
> I think it's a good model to use. State the reasons in no uncertain
> terms and just have characters trim their items by choice. Of course, if
> the DM can engineer in-game reasoning for the power reduction that would be
> great but as long as any nemeses the PC's still have roaming around are
> appropriately downgraded at the same time the sudden change shouldn't really
> affect the campaign in any but positive ways.
The relentless quest for EXP and levels just destroys some campaigns, and
I'm glad to see your DM found an intelligent and fair way to deal with it.
IMO, there's a "sweet-zone" at which fighters have four attacks per round
(with two of 'em virtual auto-hits), and spellcasters are around 6th or
7th-level spells, where things are just about perfect in terms of player
expectations for their characters contrasted with DM ability to generate
challenges. I wouldn't mind it a bit if my DMs screeched on the brakes and
got real stingy with EXP at about that point. What the hell are you going
to do with "Power Word: Kill" anyway?
--
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/American_Liberty/files/al.htm
There are three categories of those entitled to use 'We' in the
first person: Royalty, Editors, and People With Tapeworms. -- Mark Twain
Reply to mike1@@@usfamily.net sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.
Hong Ooi
Schneider) wrote:
>What the hell are you going to do with "Power Word: Kill" anyway?
Kill people. D'oh!
Hong "IHBT yet again" Ooi
--
Hong Ooi | "Usually you're a funny guy Hong. Here
hong...@maths.anu.edu.au | you're just being petty and trollish."
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | -- BWS
Sydney, Australia |
Mike Schneider
<hong...@maths.anu.edu.au> wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jan 2002 09:20:51 GMT, mi...@SPAMKILLERusfamily.net (Mike
> Schneider) wrote:
>
> >What the hell are you going to do with "Power Word: Kill" anyway?
>
> Kill people. D'oh!
If you can do it with a single spell, what challenge is left?
Hong Ooi
Schneider) wrote:
>In article <6a033u0ence0lqp0j...@4ax.com>, Hong Ooi
><hong...@maths.anu.edu.au> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 01 Jan 2002 09:20:51 GMT, mi...@SPAMKILLERusfamily.net (Mike
>> Schneider) wrote:
>>
>> >What the hell are you going to do with "Power Word: Kill" anyway?
>>
>> Kill people. D'oh!
>
>
>If you can do it with a single spell, what challenge is left?
Kill MORE people. D'oh!
Hugh Neilson
Schimmel) wrote:
>"JamesStein" <James...@si.rr.com> wrote:
>If you must keep your old characters and -not- move into politics,
>then it can still be done, but it'll be tricky. For starters,
>implement item saving throws if you haven't already. That should
>eventually start getting rid of those overpowered magic items,
>especially if your opponents include things like vampire mages,
>liches, dragons, and devils.
Giant slugs and black dragons - the Acid saves are among the woprst
for items.
>A band of NPC adventurers is
>always a good challenge... drow are even worse.
AND they can cast spells forcing item saves. Maybe one of them has a
charmed rust monster or two... This brings up a further question,
however - are your opponents with magical abilities using them
effectively? This is a common failing of inexperienced DM's,
especially those who have rarely, or never, played a spellcaster
themselves. For example, a Lich should not cast off a spell or two
then enter (or be forced into) melee. A lich needs a full complement
of spells, including many which prevent the PC's from entering melee
with him (Bigby's Hands, for example), frustrate them in mele
(Stoneskin comes to mind) and enable him to escape melee (Dimension
Door is the ultimate - casts in 1 and he moves to a secret sanctum).
And these opponents should NEVER fight to the death - they will
endeavour to escape and survive. How much more devestating should
that hyper-intelligent lich or vampire mage be after scrying and
ESPing the party for a couple of weeks, garnering full details of
their tactics, strengths and weaknesses, and arriving fully prepared
for their abilities.
>For that matter, a
>fairly small group of kobolds using traps, poison, and guerilla
>tactics can decimate an overconfident party of 10th-level types; if
>your party is used to just blasting away at the opposition, they could
>be in real trouble. And nothing teaches a group of high-level
>adventurers humility like getting knocked out, stripped of all
>possessions, and left hogtied by a bunch of kobolds. ^_-
"We're powerful adventurers - tremble in fear" "We're kobolds and
we're smart enough to be in the hall above you pouring oil and embers
through holes in your ceiling, not fighting you face to face. Bye
Bye!"
>And if personal power is a concern, those evil priests who are with
>the balor could have their own minions... a bunch of wraiths, say.
>Though it's kind of a mean thing to do. ^_-
Spectres, vampires, etc. I would also ask a further question - are
your opponents uysing their abilities as effectively as you use yours?
Do they employ good tactics, or just attack in a mad rush? RULE #1 -
If you can do it, so can the monsters!
Kaos
<tf_m...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Er.... yes, sorry. Was piggybacking on your message cause I didn't
get the one you were responding to yet, and I didn't fix the
attributions or make mention of that properly.
Terribly sorry about that.
Kaos
Schneider) wrote:
>In article <6a033u0ence0lqp0j...@4ax.com>, Hong Ooi
><hong...@maths.anu.edu.au> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 01 Jan 2002 09:20:51 GMT, mi...@SPAMKILLERusfamily.net (Mike
>> Schneider) wrote:
>>
>> >What the hell are you going to do with "Power Word: Kill" anyway?
>>
>> Kill people. D'oh!
>
>If you can do it with a single spell, what challenge is left?
Wearing them down to the point where PW:K works...
JamesStein
>
> Spectres, vampires, etc. I would also ask a further question - are
> your opponents uysing their abilities as effectively as you use yours?
> Do they employ good tactics, or just attack in a mad rush? RULE #1 -
> If you can do it, so can the monsters!
Unfortunately, they're not, which is something I've expressed to the DM.
I.e., we were fighting a very high level fighter/mage/priest. He had the
ability to slay us ... well, "easily" would be an exaggeration, but ... he
had the ability to. It wouldn't be beyond him to coat the floors in poison,
and just use Heat Metal to force characters to hit the ground. That's the
simplistic version. He's capable of PW:Kill, Symbol, Slay Living, Harm,
etc... and he really didn't use any of his big guns, because the DM didn't
want to kill us - and yet, if he wasn't going to kill us, what's really the
point in putting us in combat? ( If it 's not a real risk, then technically,
you're not supposed to get XP. The same reason one doesn't get the XP for
killing a goblin, when the goblin's hog-tied and handed to you ).
One-Winged Angel
such things can be a bit touchy sometimes. alternatively, instead of destroying the items,
you can also make them powered down. (e.g. entering a corrupted magic zone that
changes properties of magic permanently). here's a list of possibilities...
1. enemy spell (e.g. mordy's disjunction)
2. creature (e.g. rust monster, disenchanter, spellhaunt, nishruu, etc)
3. thieves (dun work too well with big items like full plate)
4. critical fumble (e.g. break weapon)
5. dead magic zone/corrupted magic zone
6. cataclysmic event (e.g. goddess of magic died in netheril, moons vanished in krynn, etc.)
"JamesStein" <James...@si.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Q9VX7.262691$XA5.43...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
>
> *snip*
>
> So, now we're rolling HP, instead of gaining max ( meaning the fighters are
> now rolling 1d10 per level, instead of just getting a flat 10 HP/level ),
> and I'm plotting with the DM on how to destroy our Magic Items ( our next
> SL will be taking place primarily on another continent, which is entirely a
> dead magic zone, and the natives there have developed firearms, so our armor
> becomes much less useful ).
>
>*snip*
Kevin Lowe
"JamesStein" <James...@si.rr.com> wrote:
> A problem I've noticed with a campaign I play in, recently, was that the
> characters are simply too powerful. With the group being at level 9 ( a
> level 9 fighter, a level 7/8 dual'd fighter/thief, a level 9/10/9
> fighter/priest/mage, and a level 7/9 dual'd priest/necromancer, and not
> included in the below cited event, a level 10 fighter),
>
> We destroyed a pair of 18 HD Iron Golems, followed by a mature black dragon,
> followed by a Balor, within a span of 10 minutes. No-one had to crack out a
> potion of healing.
That doesn't surprise me, frankly. I was used to running 2E games with
characters in the first to sixth level range in my younger days, and the
first time I ran a game where characters got into the 8th+ levels and
used the (dodgy) weapon specialisation rules sensibly I was stunned by
the amount of damage the party could dish out.
Single monsters are speed bumps for parties of your level unless they
are insanely powerful.
> At this point ( well, the day after ) I began to bitch to my DM. I really
> don't like calling it bitching - I don't consider myself a whiney player -
> but I'm pretty sure that's what I was doing. I was arguing the case that the
> campaign is just TOO powerful. We're level 9, this shouldn't be in our realm
> of abilities. We're at the point where the level 10 fighter and the
> priest/necromancer, together, took out a 50 HD Reptilian Gargantua at max HP
> within 3 rounds.
Again, no surprise. It took a first edition Oriental Adventures party
of around 7th level less than three rounds in a game I ran once.
Gargantua are built up as being scary, but their sucky AC and lack of
magic defence makes them very squishy targets.
> Yes, I know I'm playing one of the high-HP MI-toting PC's... but I really
> enjoy the challenge and RP more than I do the big combat and being...well,
> god-like.
I had trouble adjusting to running that kind of game myself. Anything
less than large, well-organised teams of very powerful monsters are
simply doomed. Almost no single monster can challenge such a party - in
the aforementioned game, liches, vampires and greater wolfweres (an
appallingly cheesy Ravenloft critter) were all demolished with
disturbing rapidity.
I didn't nerf the lich, either. Nor did the party bulge with magic
items - apart from some weapons and armour in the +1 to +3 range they
had very little magical gear.
I can see why you'd want to cut the power level down a bit, but my
limited experience is that magic items aren't central to your problem.
Characters of 10th level or so are just damn powerful, even without
magic items.
> Any suggestions on how to successfully turn this into a good SL, which will
> bring the characters back into the range of normalcy, without leaving the
> muns feeling deprived of everything their characters earned?
Others have addressed the hit point issue, sensibly IMNSHO. Either give
the monsters max hit points too or reroll them.
Apart from that, all I can suggest is that the DM run games where the
party doesn't fight lone, stupid or disorganised enemies any more. This
will probably mean fewer fights per session, but bigger and nastier
ones. I believe you also indicated that the DM pulls their punches - I
think it's established by now that pulling punches isn't necessary.
Heck, at your level you have Raise Dead on tap. Kill 'em. The Con loss
will address the hp issue, and eventually give you an incentive to
retire. :-)
Kevin Lowe,
Brisbane, Australia.
john v verkuilen
>By my calculations, your average party level is far greater than 9th. You
>have a 15th, 16th, and if I understand you correctly, a 28th level
>character. The challenges you faced shouldn't be all that daunting with a
>group like that.
They're obviously not playing 3E, but probably 2E. Thus these characters are
about 9th level.
My main suggestion would be two words: Start Over.
Jay
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
"Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it
concentrates his mind wonderfully." --Dr. Samuel Johnson
Dissertation pages written: 110; RIP Stuart Adamson, 1958-2001.
Tim Martin
>
>Single monsters are speed bumps for parties of your level unless they
>are insanely powerful.
Totally agree, glad I found that out early IMC when the party trounced in
seperate encounters on a single day first a dragon turtle than a roc. Thanks
to missile weapons and ranged spells the roc was actually absurdly easy.
>Again, no surprise. It took a first edition Oriental Adventures party
>of around 7th level less than three rounds in a game I ran once.
>Gargantua are built up as being scary, but their sucky AC and lack of
>magic defence makes them very squishy targets.
That's a shame, but I can see that under the rules. Anyone think of a way to
make a Gargantua a threat to high level parties, or is it pretty much meant
for lower level parties? I remember reading an article in Dragon long ago on
Dinosaurs, where it suggested that don't save the dinosaurs for high level
parties, as it would become a boring slugfest, but use them for mid and low
level parties, who would have to use their wits and skills to defeat or
evade one.
>I had trouble adjusting to running that kind of game myself. Anything
>less than large, well-organised teams of very powerful monsters are
>simply doomed. Almost no single monster can challenge such a party - in
>the aforementioned game, liches, vampires and greater wolfweres (an
>appallingly cheesy Ravenloft critter) were all demolished with
>disturbing rapidity.
Exactly. As far as combat went, in the latter days of my campaign for
challenge I had two choices; massive land or sea battles with hundreds if
not thousands of combatants, or equivalent level or higher level groups of
NPC hitmen, adventurers, assassins, operatives, what have you. Nothing else
really did it. Only when I had the PCs alone could more traditional monsters
have a way to really threaten them (such as the slayer genie against that
fighter one day...).
Tim
john v verkuilen
>Unfortunately, the DM gave out too many strong MI's to start with - and, I
>think it's time that he fix his own mistake. I myself can say that my
>character is just too damn strong - he can take over the world, if he wished
>to (His army currently consists of 300,000 foot soldier zombies, 10,000 foot
>soldier skeletons, 75 Juggarnaut golems, he has 200 smokepowder cannons,
>6,000 human foot soldiers[mounted, european chargers], 2,000 archers
>[mounted, asiatic ponies], 100 warriors-polymorphed-Dragons, and his
>familiar is a Great Wyrm Brass Dragon) - and his patron, under whose
>protection he created this army ... is just so powerful that the DM won't
>tell us what he is, save to say that he can destroy the entire army on a
>whim. I'm at this point volunteering to retire the character into NPC-hood,
>simply because he's too powerful to be in my hands.
I think it's time to toss some water on the Wicked Witch of the West and get
off the Yellow Brick Road. :)
Seriously, I think you're coming out of the munchkin/super power/whatever you
want to call it phase. The rest of your players may not have done that yet.
Time, I think, to retire this campaign. If you have the cash and the
inclination, converting to 3E (run by the book) would be a good excuse to
push the much-needed reset button.
Jordan Wolbrum
Kevin Lowe wrote:
> That doesn't surprise me, frankly. I was used to running 2E games with
> characters in the first to sixth level range in my younger days, and the
> first time I ran a game where characters got into the 8th+ levels and
> used the (dodgy) weapon specialisation rules sensibly I was stunned by
> the amount of damage the party could dish out.
I think darts were absolutely horrific. Imagine a 13th level fighter specialized
in dart wearing a girdle of storm giant strength.
He gets to throw 6 darts per round, each with a +6 bonus from strength (plus any
dex bonus) to hit, and +12 damage. (It was worse before we realized that missile
weapons don't get the +1/+2 from specialization).
At this point, pretty much anything without a grotesque armor class or weapon
immunity gets hit at least 4 times.
Then again... fast forward to college, and I was able (with difficulty) to manage
a Dark Sun campaign into double-digit levels. It might be easier in that world...
after all, the characters didn't even end up with steel weapons, let alone magic
ones, until 3rd level, and that was simply a knife for the party's bard.
Even so, as a DM, I've always had problems with high-level campaigns in finding
reasonable combats for my players. Usually, if I pull out all the shots with any
competant spellcasting opponent, the players will all die. It might be better in
3rd edition, but I haven't seen any high-level characters there yet.
-JW
Kevin Lowe
"Tim Martin" <tf_m...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> >Single monsters are speed bumps for parties of your level unless they
> >are insanely powerful.
>
>
> Totally agree, glad I found that out early IMC when the party trounced in
> seperate encounters on a single day first a dragon turtle than a roc. Thanks
> to missile weapons and ranged spells the roc was actually absurdly easy.
Yup.
I wish I'd thought of this earlier, actually: for a good demonstration
of the combat dynamics of high-level 2E DnD you can do worse than
playing a little of the old SSI games (Pool of Radiance, Azure Bonds
etc).
The enemy AI is truly dumb, and the enemy all share a fetish for
standing in tightly-packed clumps to make it easer to kill them all with
fireballs, but the rules are pretty well implemented.
You'll find that low level parties have trouble with tiny threats - two
packs of four or six orcs in one day can lead to party members going
down. But by sixth level you can slaughter packs of powerful monsters
like trolls, giants and otyughs with ease, and past 10th or so you can
mow down armies of high level characters, dragons, golems, you name it.
All this without specialisation, either.
Although I haven't played them, possibly the more modern DnD games also
capture the way high level combats play out.
> >Again, no surprise. It took a first edition Oriental Adventures party
> >of around 7th level less than three rounds in a game I ran once.
> >Gargantua are built up as being scary, but their sucky AC and lack of
> >magic defence makes them very squishy targets.
>
> That's a shame, but I can see that under the rules. Anyone think of a way to
> make a Gargantua a threat to high level parties, or is it pretty much meant
> for lower level parties? I remember reading an article in Dragon long ago on
> Dinosaurs, where it suggested that don't save the dinosaurs for high level
> parties, as it would become a boring slugfest, but use them for mid and low
> level parties, who would have to use their wits and skills to defeat or
> evade one.
For genuinely Godzilla-esque action the monster needs to be effectively
invulnerable to anything less than another giant monster or nuclear
weapons. I'd say DR+5/50 and comparable elemental resistances or
something similarly crazy might be appropriate.
The Dark Sun dragon was statted more or less appropriately to be a
Godzilla-style monster, and the 3E Tarrasque is in the same boat.
Kevin Lowe,
Brisbane, Australia.
Anivair
> characters are simply too powerful. With the group being at level 9 ( a
> level 9 fighter, a level 7/8 dual'd fighter/thief, a level 9/10/9
> fighter/priest/mage, and a level 7/9 dual'd priest/necromancer, and not
> included in the below cited event, a level 10 fighter),
I'll assume 2ed. if now . . . wow unbalanced.
> We destroyed a pair of 18 HD Iron Golems, followed by a mature black dragon,
> followed by a Balor, within a span of 10 minutes. No-one had to crack out a
> potion of healing.
The phrase "Crack out a Potion of Healing" is more telling than the
actual list of kills, BTW.
> At this point ( well, the day after ) I began to bitch to my DM. I really
> don't like calling it bitching - I don't consider myself a whiney player -
> but I'm pretty sure that's what I was doing. I was arguing the case that the
> campaign is just TOO powerful. We're level 9, this shouldn't be in our realm
> of abilities. We're at the point where the level 10 fighter and the
> priest/necromancer, together, took out a 50 HD Reptilian Gargantua at max HP
> within 3 rounds.
>
> Yes, I know I'm playing one of the high-HP MI-toting PC's... but I really
> enjoy the challenge and RP more than I do the big combat and being...well,
> god-like.
You are not along. There are many people (Monte Cook aside) who
really like roleplaying more than playing a character that deals out
huge damage and kills many beasties. I'm not saying a big damage
dealing character is a bad thing, but that the goal for many os a
realistic and well rounded character, not killing stuff.
> So, now we're rolling HP, instead of gaining max ( meaning the fighters are
> now rolling 1d10 per level, instead of just getting a flat 10 HP/level ),
> and I'm plotting with the DM on how to destroy our Magic Items ( our next
> SL will be taking place primarily on another continent, which is entirely a
> dead magic zone, and the natives there have developed firearms, so our armor
> becomes much less useful ).
Why did you ever stop rolling hit points in the first place? If this
is indicative of the rest of your house rules, then I can see why the
power levels got out of whack in the first place. Generally it starts
with somehting simple like max hit points. And then to balance you
need to give the omnsters max as well, which makes them more deadly
than the PC's so you give them more lagic and uber up casting classes
to make up for the fact that they don't rely on the hit points you
maxed out . . . you can see where i'm going with this. Point is, why
not just use the rules the way they're written. No roleplaying game
should, IMO, be about rules. It should be about telling a story with
the rules as a framework. Only bend them if you have to. not just
because you want to.
> I don't yet know how this will turn out, but I'm praying it will turn out
> well.
>
> Any suggestions on how to successfully turn this into a good SL, which will
> bring the characters back into the range of normalcy, without leaving the
> muns feeling deprived of everything their characters earned?
Well, I'll assume, though it's not stated, that your character all
have great stats as well. One huge problem is assuming that you need
to have great stats to play a member of any class sucessfully. Not
all fighters need an 18 or higher strength. In fact only the truly
exceptional and strong will have that. So for starters, I'd say that
character generation should always be monitered. Have someone else
see you roll stats. And just roll one set. People are obsessed with
rolling a billion sets of stats and having all sorts of stupid
character generation rules. Just make the character.
Also, DM's don't make bad guys break magic items enough. A character
IMC just tonight broke the bad guy's magic weapon in the first round
of combat. Great idea. I'll be using it in the future.
Apart from that, I'd say clearing the board may not help. I'd start a
new game.
later,
~Anivair
Anivair
> I don't think he's talking 2e necessarily. Nowhere does he specify which
> edition he's using, in fact when I first read his post, I thought he was
> talking 3e. The 9/10/9 sounds like a separate character to me from the
> 10th level fighter, however.
No, it's fairly obvious, or the tenth level character would be just a
bit outclassed by the 28th level character who can't exist. I realize
we tend to stick to 3E anymore, but jeez. Pay some attention.
later,
~Anivair
Anivair
> think it's time that he fix his own mistake. I myself can say that my
> character is just too damn strong - he can take over the world, if he wished
> to (His army currently consists of 300,000 foot soldier zombies, 10,000 foot
> soldier skeletons, 75 Juggarnaut golems, he has 200 smokepowder cannons,
> 6,000 human foot soldiers[mounted, european chargers], 2,000 archers
> [mounted, asiatic ponies], 100 warriors-polymorphed-Dragons, and his
> familiar is a Great Wyrm Brass Dragon) - and his patron, under whose
> protection he created this army ... is just so powerful that the DM won't
> tell us what he is, save to say that he can destroy the entire army on a
> whim. I'm at this point volunteering to retire the character into NPC-hood,
> simply because he's too powerful to be in my hands.
Yah. As I said, this is indicative of the problem most games face
when they seem a bit powerful. I'm sure the DM had good intentions
when he let you take on a dragon familiar, but no matter how neat it
seems, the great wyrm isn't half a hit die. Ever. problem one.
Problem two. Godlike beings. Too many DM's throw Godlike beings
around at a whim just because they like it. Stop it.
Problem 3. Your ninth level (or so) character has an army. Not on my
watch.
As I said. Start over.
later,
~Anivair
Varl
> No, it's fairly obvious, or the tenth level character would be just a
> bit outclassed by the 28th level character who can't exist. I realize
> we tend to stick to 3E anymore, but jeez. Pay some attention.
Back off. Chad and Kaos already informed me of my mistake.
--
The best interpretation of a rule is the one you make yourself.