AD&D versus D&D
etp...@happy.colorado.edu
I post to a variety of networks. One interesting area is the TSR area
on GEnie. There, An interesting discussion came up comparing D&D to AD&D.
There are a number of old timers (like myself -- 15 yearsyM of play
right now) who are going back to D&D, because they prefer it. My own
reason is that I like the World better than the others, except possibly
Ravenloft. p
Are there any others out there who prefer the Cyclopeadia (with PC1-3) e
over AD&D?
-ED!!
Bryan J. Maloney
> Are there any others out there who prefer the Cyclopeadia (with PC1-3) e
>over AD&D?
Yes. I'm one of them. I HATE the world which goes along with it (typical
TSR stupid-design school. "We don' need no steenkeeng social science
knowledge. We don' need no steenkeeng ecology or economics knowledge to
design a world." just doesn't cut it these days. The "Known World" is
about two decades behind the times in design concepts for rpg campaigns.
However, the D&D rules are miles ahead of AD&D. Less clutter, less
irrational special rules. If only they would have separated the
character classes from races...
just james
>In article <1992Jul9...@happy.colorado.edu> etp...@happy.colorado.edu writes:
>> Are there any others out there who prefer the Cyclopeadia (with PC1-3) e
>>over AD&D?
>
>Yes. I'm one of them. I HATE the world which goes along with it (typical
>TSR stupid-design school. "We don' need no steenkeeng social science
>knowledge. We don' need no steenkeeng ecology or economics knowledge to
>design a world." just doesn't cut it these days. The "Known World" is
>about two decades behind the times in design concepts for rpg campaigns.
As opposed to what... the Forgotten Realms? Gee, nothing more
creative than Kara-Tur or The Horde, which are the most blatant
ripoffs I have ever seen... of our OWN history. I mean, why bother
renaming things? I would rather have some "fantasy" worlds which
don't 100% make sense than just play in a slightly veiled version of
history. (at least with Charlemagne's Paladin's they stopped hiding
the historical correspondence)
This is one of the thing that led me to begin designing my own world.
Now the DarkSun world is pretty creative. If ridiculously
overpowered.
For that matter, has anyone noticed that the Forgotten Realms are
silly with power? Every major city has a MU of at LEAST 15th level.
Good grief. The DEMIGODS of my world are only 18th-20th level.
--
James Kittock -- Duke class of 1992 -- Computer Science/Mathematics
j...@cs.duke.edu | mcnc!duke!jek | PO Box 5750, Duke Station, Durham, NC 27706
"Yes, I will kiss the girl from Venus for science." - They Might be Giants
Lei Wang
> In article <53...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> jac...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) writes:
> >In article <1992Jul9...@happy.colorado.edu> etp...@happy.colorado.edu writes:
> >> Are there any others out there who prefer the Cyclopeadia (with PC1-3) e
> >>over AD&D?
> >
> >Yes. I'm one of them. I HATE the world which goes along with it (typical
> >TSR stupid-design school. "We don' need no steenkeeng social science
> >knowledge. We don' need no steenkeeng ecology or economics knowledge to
> >design a world." just doesn't cut it these days. The "Known World" is
> >about two decades behind the times in design concepts for rpg campaigns.
>
> overpowered.
>
> For that matter, has anyone noticed that the Forgotten Realms are
> silly with power? Every major city has a MU of at LEAST 15th level.
>
> Good grief. The DEMIGODS of my world are only 18th-20th level.
Yea. Forgotten Realms have some hefty power behind its characters.
When they unveiled Elminster, the 26th level mage/sage who is the most
knowledgable in the Realms, I nodded my head and agreed. 26th level
is Pretty high, but not for Elminster.
When they gave Khelben, the 26th level who was an apprentice of Elminster's,
I widened my eyes and said, "ah".
When they revealed the Simbul, 27th level female mage, who was also
an apprentice at one time of Elminster's, I gulped and said, "well, someone
had to be more powerful than Elminster, although he's the wisest..."
When I saw the other 27th and 29th level mages in Forgotten Realms
hardback and the Ruins of Undermountain, I said, "Geez. Pretty Hefty.
Pretty Hefty indeed." Raistlin, the 20th level mage in Krynn who challenged
one of the three major Gods and would have succeeded, was Only 20th level.
When I saw the printing in one of the cities in FR hardback with a priest
of level 190, I gave a double take and almost believed it.
Half a second later I chuckled to myself. That typo almost got me.
--
l2w...@napier.waterloo.edu
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howitt general access
>From: l2w...@napier.waterloo.edu ( Lei Wang )
>Subject: The Power of Forgotten Realms (was Re: AD&D versus D&D)
>Date: 11 Jul 92 05:53:31 GMT
MMM. I really like the forgotten realms a lot. I like the world. Though i
have to agree about the power of the place. The realms hand book for example
has some rediculously powerful spells such as elminsters evasion and
elminsters effulgent epuration.
howitt general access
>From: l2w...@napier.waterloo.edu ( Lei Wang )
>Subject: The Power of Forgotten Realms (was Re: AD&D versus D&D)
>Date: 11 Jul 92 05:53:31 GMT
>In article <7107...@tyranno.cs.duke.edu>, j...@duke.cs.duke.edu (just james) writes:
Don't remember about any 190 th level priest where and who was the priest.
Lei Wang
> In article <Br7n1...@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> l2w...@napier.waterloo.edu ( Lei Wang ) writes:
>
> > When I saw the printing in one of the cities in FR hardback with a priest
> >of level 190, I gave a double take and almost believed it.
> > Half a second later I chuckled to myself. That typo almost got me.
>
>
I don't have the book with me. But look under temple/shrines under each
city, and the head priests therein. It's somewhere near the middle of the
list of twenty-thirty cities, I think.
Bryan J. Maloney
>As opposed to what... the Forgotten Realms? Gee, nothing more
>creative than Kara-Tur or The Horde, which are the most blatant
>ripoffs I have ever seen... of our OWN history. I mean, why bother
>renaming things? I would rather have some "fantasy" worlds which
>don't 100% make sense than just play in a slightly veiled version of
>history. (at least with Charlemagne's Paladin's they stopped hiding
>the historical correspondence)
>
Uh, since when did I say that the Forgotten Realms were any good?
Yup, they are historical rip-offs. Furthermore, Kara-Tur was never
supposed to be part of the Realms at all. (This I got straight from
the writer's mouth at a seminar in GenCon '91.) They just got stuck
on as a sort of afterthought.
Furthermore, they didn't even bother to rename things completly:
Koryu used to be called Chosen in Kara-Tur.
Korea was called Chosen in our own world.
But who ever expects originality from TSR these days?
John Francis
>In article <7107...@tyranno.cs.duke.edu>, j...@duke.cs.duke.edu (just james) writes:
>>
>> silly with power? Every major city has a MU of at LEAST 15th level.
>>
>> Good grief. The DEMIGODS of my world are only 18th-20th level.
>
>level 21+ have been dropped by 10, those from 16-20 have been dropped by 5, and
>those from 11-15th level have been dropped three levels. This applies to ALL
>classes.
This seems to be a reasonable approach if you really feel that you have been
running into too many ultra-high level characters.
> Oh yeah, because of a winter siege and assassinations, Waterdeep has
>now has only one mage over 10th level left (the next guys are two PCs at 7th).
>And the mage ain't Kelben Blackstaff (he bit it).
> Next on the hit list: the Elmermeister
At this point I would claim that you aren't really running in Forgotten Realms
anymore - just somewhere that is geographically similar. But if that's what
your group is happiest with, then that's the right thing for you to be doing!
My group don't seem to have a problem with high-level characters. They've met
Elminster & Khelben (I ran the Silverdale/Tantras/Waterdeep trilogy), but only
once. The rest of the time they deal with regular folks, occasionally seeking
out higher-level (10th-14th) characters for training. In fact there is a bit
of a problem; we have a PC cleric at I think 9th level, and she is having lots
of problems finding NPC clerics of her church who are higher level than she is.
In general my players don't want to be the highest-level characters in the city,
let alone in the kingdom; that just means that everyone expects you to solve
their problems. It's far better to be medium-level, and do what you want to do.
I've just finished running them through a modified version of the (Greyhawk)
modules "Five Swords for a Kingdom"/"Howl from the North", which I substituted
into the Forgotten Realms timeline to replace the "Bloodstone Pass" modules.
[Both end in fairly major battles, but at least this way I don't have to mess
around with a major demon. I don't want named demons in my world - I find it
hard to believe that a party of 8th-level characters could handle a being with
the powers attributed to most high-level demons. But I digress . .]
My party succesfully got four of the swords together, and then decided that
they probably weren't the optimum choice for leaders of a barbarian horde to
sweep the evil Zhentarim from the land. So they gave the swords to someone
they felt was better equipped to handle the problem, and took a southwards
path for a couple of years to wait until things quietened down. If they had
been the most renowned band of adventurers in the kingdom they probably would
not have been able to do this with a clear conscience.
--
John Francis jo...@apollo.hp.com
The world can be divided into two classes :-
those who divide people into two classes, and those who don't.
a_co...@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
> silly with power? Every major city has a MU of at LEAST 15th level.
>
> Good grief. The DEMIGODS of my world are only 18th-20th level.
I've greatly reduced the levels of NPCs throughout the realms. Those of
level 21+ have been dropped by 10, those from 16-20 have been dropped by 5, and
those from 11-15th level have been dropped three levels. This applies to ALL
classes.
Oh yeah, because of a winter siege and assassinations, Waterdeep has
now has only one mage over 10th level left (the next guys are two PCs at 7th).
And the mage ain't Kelben Blackstaff (he bit it).
Next on the hit list: the Elmermeister
Brandon Cope
a_co...@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
> In article <1992Jul17...@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> a_co...@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>> Oh yeah, because of a winter siege and assassinations, Waterdeep has
>>now has only one mage over 10th level left (the next guys are two PCs at 7th).
>>And the mage ain't Kelben Blackstaff (he bit it).
>> Next on the hit list: the Elmermeister
>
> At this point I would claim that you aren't really running in Forgotten Realms
> anymore - just somewhere that is geographically similar. But if that's what
> your group is happiest with, then that's the right thing for you to be doing!
Things change, people die, nations crumble. I also haven't happened to
use the stuff in the Avatar Trilogy, and I never will. But this doesn't make ny
campaign invalid. I still use the nations of the Realms, and its general
history. Just because I don't like some of the characters and got rid of them
doesn't mean I'm not running Forgotten Realms anymore.
It seems that you are of the opinion that if I don't let TSR dictate
who and what exists in my campaign world, that I am somehow 'wrong'.
Brandon Cope