Re: Homosexual monsters in D&D

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <kg0s6e$700$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, hesacopo...@yahoo.com
(ForeverRent) wrote:

> Hi,
DNFTT

Cheers
JOanna

[Loren Pechtel]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:52:17 +0100, "ForeverRent"
<hesacopo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I want to start a campaign with gay men playing various characters and I
>want to know if gay monsters, who rape men, are realistic in D&D?
>
>For example gay trolls, gay dragons, gay beholders or gay giants?
>
>What do you think about gay monsters in D&D?
>
>-F.R.
>
>Proud to be gay.
>

I guess I need to go with Joanna's idea of Meteor Swarm rather than
just Fireball.

[Nicole Massey]

"ForeverRent" <hesacopo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kg0s6e$700$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> Hi,
>
> I want to start a campaign with gay men playing various characters and I
> want to know if gay monsters, who rape men, are realistic in D&D?
>
> For example gay trolls, gay dragons, gay beholders or gay giants?
>
> What do you think about gay monsters in D&D?

They're worth just as many experience points, and have the same abilities
and weaknesses. What a monster does in the sanctity of its den is none of my
business, just like what I do in my bedroom is none of anyone else's.

[Nicole Massey]

"Loren Pechtel" <lorenp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eu28i8psgbbo9a2nb...@4ax.com...

I wrote a 9th level spell called Nova that creates a thermonuclear
explosion. That would definitely leave a mark.

[Ubiquitous]

In article <kg0s6e$700$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, hesacopo...@yahoo.com

wrote:

>What do you think about gay monsters in D&D?

The "Flumph". Totally gay.

--
"Re-electing Obama is like backing The Titanic up and hitting the
iceberg a second time."

[Alcore]

On Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:27:58 PM UTC-6, Ubiquitous wrote:
> In article <kg0s6e$700$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, hesacopo...@yahoo.com
> wrote:
> >What do you think about gay monsters in D&D?
>
> The "Flumph". Totally gay.

Screw Homosexual monsters... If you want to scare a party, use Rust Monsters.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 2/20/13 10:49 AM, Alcore wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:27:58 PM UTC-6, Ubiquitous wrote:
>> In article <kg0s6e$700$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, hesacopo...@yahoo.com
>> wrote:
>>> What do you think about gay monsters in D&D?
>>
>> The "Flumph". Totally gay.
>
> Screw Homosexual monsters.

Sorry, they're not my type!

.. If you want to scare a party, use Rust Monsters.
>

Only if you use metal!



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Ubiquitous]

I prefer Disenchanters disguised as "My Pretty Ponies".
(Are they the ones with rainbows on them?)

[Ubiquitous]

In article <kg301g$pjn$3...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com
wrote:

>On 2/20/13 10:49 AM, Alcore wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:27:58 PM UTC-6, Ubiquitous wrote:
>>> hesacopo...@yahoo.com wrote:

>>>> What do you think about gay monsters in D&D?
>>>
>>> The "Flumph". Totally gay.
>>
>> Screw Homosexual monsters.
>
> Sorry, they're not my type!
>
> .. If you want to scare a party, use Rust Monsters.
>>
>
> Only if you use metal!

It's still a good way to test a party's mettle.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:01:43 -0600, "Nicole Massey"
<ny...@gypsyheir.com> wrote:

>> I guess I need to go with Joanna's idea of Meteor Swarm rather than
>> just Fireball.
>
>I wrote a 9th level spell called Nova that creates a thermonuclear
>explosion. That would definitely leave a mark.

9th?

Polymorph any object, a hunk of lead into a hunk of plutonium.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Or in 1e, depending on exact interpretation of rules, two cantrips. As
duration for a nuclear explosion is measurable in fractions of a second,
you don't need a spell with a duration beyond a few seconds.

[Nicole Massey]

"Loren Pechtel" <lorenp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:rrbai8hjnft53shbd...@4ax.com...

Well, there's a bit more to the spell than that, like shielding the party.

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <eu28i8psgbbo9a2nb...@4ax.com>,

lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:

> I guess I need to go with Joanna's idea of Meteor Swarm rather than
> just Fireball.
>

:-D

Cheers
JOanna

[azothath]

On Tuesday, February 19, 2013 3:52:17 PM UTC-6, ForeverRent wrote:
> Hi,
> I want to start a campaign with gay men playing various characters and I
> want to know if gay monsters, who rape men, are realistic in D&D?
> For example gay trolls, gay dragons, gay beholders or gay giants?

> What do you think about gay monsters in D&D?
>

> -F.R.
> Proud to be gay.

D&D clearly skirts this issue, or maybe kilts it... lol...

you can add whatever twists you want to a home game - that's what it is all about, making your own world come alive.

Now if you need a date - this is not the appropriate forum unless this post is a troll...

=====
azothath
No wire hangers! What's wire hangers doing in this closet when I told you no wire hangers, ever?! I work and I slave until I'm half dead, and all I hear people say is she's getting old. And what do I get? A daughter who cares as much about the beautiful dresses I give her as she cares about me! What's wire hangers doing in this closet?!

[David Lamb]

On 20/02/2013 11:07 PM, azothath wrote:
> unless this post is a troll

"Unless?" It's pretty clear, not just from the OP text, but from the use
of "coup-counting" newsgroups that bear no relation to D&D.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:09:00 -0600, "Nicole Massey"

<ny...@gypsyheir.com> wrote:

>
>"Loren Pechtel" <lorenp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:rrbai8hjnft53shbd...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:01:43 -0600, "Nicole Massey"
>> <ny...@gypsyheir.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I guess I need to go with Joanna's idea of Meteor Swarm rather than
>>>> just Fireball.
>>>
>>>I wrote a 9th level spell called Nova that creates a thermonuclear
>>>explosion. That would definitely leave a mark.
>>
>> 9th?
>>
>> Polymorph any object, a hunk of lead into a hunk of plutonium.
>
>Well, there's a bit more to the spell than that, like shielding the party.

Contingency--teleport away the instant the polymorph spell is finished
casting.

If you don't like that one there's always delay. I don't recall
seeing a metamagic rod of delay but there's no reason it shouldn't
exist.

[Keith Davies]

Joanna Rowland Stuart <jrowlan...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <kg0s6e$700$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, hesacopo...@yahoo.com
> (ForeverRent) wrote:
>
>> Hi,
> DNFTT

Curiously, on another thread I see ForeverRent replying to my post with
"and you are feeding this troll why?"

I guess he got his puppets confused.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "chain letter and chain mail...
keith....@kjdavies.org not the same thing, right?"
KJD-IMC: http://www.kjd-imc.org -- Naomi
Echelon: http://www.echelond20.org

[Jim Davies]

On the grave of "ForeverRent" <hesacopo...@yahoo.com> is
inscribed:

>Hi,
>
>I want to start a campaign with gay men playing various characters and I
>want to know if gay monsters, who rape men, are realistic in D&D?
>
>For example gay trolls, gay dragons, gay beholders or gay giants?
>
>What do you think about gay monsters in D&D?

As a point of incidental fact, there's an NPC gay couple in
Pathfinder's Rise of the Runelords AP. The relationship forms a minor
plot point.

--
Jim

http://www.aaargh.org

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <3opci89b66la6cnrg...@4ax.com>,

lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:

> Contingency--teleport away the instant the polymorph spell is
> finished
> casting.

Just make sure it's a small party LOL

Actually, just creating a critical mass of plutonium will just produce a
squib, rather than a device. The explosion and radiation will only be
lethal to those in the immediate vicinity.

On the other hand if there's a way you can cause it to go supercritical
with some sort of implosion spell, then you're in business. Cast a
Contingency to teleport you and the party when the implosion spell is
cast. Create a sub-critical mass of plutonium using polymorph any object,
then cast the implosion spell on it.

Cheers
JOanna

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <slrnkid6m2.pn...@kjdavies.org>,

keith....@kjdavies.org (Keith Davies) wrote:

> Curiously, on another thread I see ForeverRent replying to my post
> with
> "and you are feeding this troll why?"
>
> I guess he got his puppets confused.

LOL

Cheers
JOanna

[ppint. at pplay]

- hi; in article,
<memo.2013022...@jrowlandstuart.cix.co.uk>,
jrowlan...@cix.co.uk "Joanna Rowland Stuart" appreciated:

> keith....@kjdavies.org (Keith Davies) wrote:
>>Curiously, on another thread I see ForeverRent replying to my post
>>with "and you are feeding this troll why?"
>>
>>I guess he got his puppets confused.
>
>LOL

- you can buy socks clearly marked "left" and "right" for that;
do you think it'd be a measurable kindness to advise him of the
common availability of this felicity?

- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"No creature without tentacles had ever developed true intelligence."
- "Hunting Problem" Robert Sheckley

[Loren Pechtel]

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 01:01 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
jrowlan...@cix.co.uk (Joanna Rowland Stuart) wrote:

>In article <3opci89b66la6cnrg...@4ax.com>,
>lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:
>
>> Contingency--teleport away the instant the polymorph spell is
>> finished
>> casting.
>Just make sure it's a small party LOL

At the level you could be casting this teleport can lift a typical
party of PCs.

>Actually, just creating a critical mass of plutonium will just produce a
>squib, rather than a device. The explosion and radiation will only be
>lethal to those in the immediate vicinity.

The problem here is that you're not creating a big enough chunk. If
it's just a critical mass it goes poof. Lethal radiation, nothing
more. (There was a real-world case, the guy was only some feet from
the poof. He was knocked off a catwalk but lived long enough to run
out of the building.)

>On the other hand if there's a way you can cause it to go supercritical
>with some sort of implosion spell, then you're in business. Cast a
>Contingency to teleport you and the party when the implosion spell is
>cast. Create a sub-critical mass of plutonium using polymorph any object,
>then cast the implosion spell on it.

You only need an implosion because you need a means of converting the
subcritical chunk of plutonium *QUICKLY* into a highly supercritical
chunk. If you don't do it fast enough the heat produced blows it
apart too early. (Actually, in all cases the heat blows it apart
before you're done. The objective is to get as much of the energy out
as possible before that happens.)

Since we are using polymorph we don't need all that fanciness, though.
A critical mass of plutonium (assuming no reflectors, implosion or the
like) is a ball 4" across. Lets make a ball 12" across with the
polymorph. The center part of that ball is way into the supercritical
realm. Hello mushroom cloud.

It's nowhere near as efficient a use of plutonium as a properly
designed bomb but since we are just doing a polymorph efficiency
doesn't matter.


Anyway, I realize I did it wrong. We shouldn't be polymorphing
lead--that's too much like plutonium. Instead, we want something far
from plutonium so the duration is short.

Thus I present the plutonium turkey. The duration will be only 1
round/level. Lets say we are level 20, it lasts two minutes.

Our turkey goes boom and two minutes later virtually all the fallout
vanishes! (On the other hand you might say the fallout vanishes
instantly anyway as it's now separated from the polymorphed item.)

[Keith Davies]

Loren Pechtel <lorenp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anyway, I realize I did it wrong. We shouldn't be polymorphing
> lead--that's too much like plutonium. Instead, we want something far
> from plutonium so the duration is short.
>
> Thus I present the plutonium turkey. The duration will be only 1
> round/level. Lets say we are level 20, it lasts two minutes.
>
> Our turkey goes boom and two minutes later virtually all the fallout
> vanishes! (On the other hand you might say the fallout vanishes
> instantly anyway as it's now separated from the polymorphed item.)

The scattered plutonium may disappear (returned to atomized turkey), but
if I'm not mistaken you're still going to have a lot of radiation in the
area in the other materials bombarded with subatomic particles.

[tussock]

Jim Davies wrote:

> As a point of incidental fact, there's an NPC gay couple in
> Pathfinder's Rise of the Runelords AP. The relationship forms a minor
> plot point.

In B5, the witches in the woods are fairly obviously an older gay
couple. There's likely heaps of them tucked away here and there if you look.

Paizo just pointed it out in the text, that two of the long-term male
friends in town are gay. Officially, they have quite a lot of gay and
bisexual NPCs, including at least one of the major villians and some world-
shakers, and "AT LEAST" one of the iconics is gay (though they won't state
which one in that case). Almost all of the potential love interests are
unspecified to let them be whatever works for each group.

It's all very positive and enlightened and terribly anacronistic. You
know why they burnt witches at the stake IRL? Because that's what they
called lesbians at the time, and murdering every last one of them was a
rather popular trick for travelling entertainers. At least D&D is a
meritocracy, it doesn't matter what they local cranks think of you once
you're 4th level.

--
tussock

[Loren Pechtel]

On 24 Feb 2013 22:35:55 GMT, Keith Davies <keith....@kjdavies.org>
wrote:

>Loren Pechtel <lorenp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Anyway, I realize I did it wrong. We shouldn't be polymorphing
>> lead--that's too much like plutonium. Instead, we want something far
>> from plutonium so the duration is short.
>>
>> Thus I present the plutonium turkey. The duration will be only 1
>> round/level. Lets say we are level 20, it lasts two minutes.
>>
>> Our turkey goes boom and two minutes later virtually all the fallout
>> vanishes! (On the other hand you might say the fallout vanishes
>> instantly anyway as it's now separated from the polymorphed item.)
>
>The scattered plutonium may disappear (returned to atomized turkey), but
>if I'm not mistaken you're still going to have a lot of radiation in the
>area in the other materials bombarded with subatomic particles.

Where did those subatomic particles (almost all neutrons) come from
but the plutonium? They vanish when the polymorph ends, as well as
all the fission products.

The only radioactivity that will be left is when a neutron from the
blast either split an atom in the environment in two (very hard unless
it's fissile in the first place) or the neutron was captured and made
a highly unstable isotope which promptly decayed and the second form
with the neutron removed is also radioactive. (Example: Deuterium +
neutron -> Tritium. There's a miniscule chance it decays to He3
before the polymorph runs out. Remove the neutron and you have
He2--which has a half life so short that they can't even be certain
that it has been observed in atom smashers. I suspect there are other
such combinations but it would take more digging than it's worth to
figure out.)

[Keith Davies]

Loren Pechtel <lorenp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 24 Feb 2013 22:35:55 GMT, Keith Davies <keith....@kjdavies.org>
> wrote:
>
>>Loren Pechtel <lorenp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyway, I realize I did it wrong. We shouldn't be polymorphing
>>> lead--that's too much like plutonium. Instead, we want something far
>>> from plutonium so the duration is short.
>>>
>>> Thus I present the plutonium turkey. The duration will be only 1
>>> round/level. Lets say we are level 20, it lasts two minutes.
>>>
>>> Our turkey goes boom and two minutes later virtually all the fallout
>>> vanishes! (On the other hand you might say the fallout vanishes
>>> instantly anyway as it's now separated from the polymorphed item.)
>>
>>The scattered plutonium may disappear (returned to atomized turkey), but
>>if I'm not mistaken you're still going to have a lot of radiation in the
>>area in the other materials bombarded with subatomic particles.
>
> Where did those subatomic particles (almost all neutrons) come from
> but the plutonium? They vanish when the polymorph ends, as well as
> all the fission products.

Do they? They're not plutonium any more.

> The only radioactivity that will be left is when a neutron from the
> blast either split an atom in the environment in two (very hard unless
> it's fissile in the first place) or the neutron was captured and made
> a highly unstable isotope which promptly decayed and the second form
> with the neutron removed is also radioactive. (Example: Deuterium +
> neutron -> Tritium. There's a miniscule chance it decays to He3
> before the polymorph runs out. Remove the neutron and you have
> He2--which has a half life so short that they can't even be certain
> that it has been observed in atom smashers. I suspect there are other
> such combinations but it would take more digging than it's worth to
> figure out.)

Indeed. I ask only out of curiosity, this is not my field of knowledge.

[Keith Davies]

tussock <sc...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
> Jim Davies wrote:
>
>> As a point of incidental fact, there's an NPC gay couple in
>> Pathfinder's Rise of the Runelords AP. The relationship forms a minor
>> plot point.
>
> In B5, the witches in the woods are fairly obviously an older gay
> couple. There's likely heaps of them tucked away here and there if you look.
>
> Paizo just pointed it out in the text, that two of the long-term male
> friends in town are gay. Officially, they have quite a lot of gay and
> bisexual NPCs, including at least one of the major villians and some world-
> shakers, and "AT LEAST" one of the iconics is gay (though they won't state
> which one in that case). Almost all of the potential love interests are
> unspecified to let them be whatever works for each group.

As I recall, Lheo (Elminster's scribe and helper) was reputed to be gay.
I understand it was a false reputation; there's at least one scene
post-hookup between Lheo and Storm What's-Her-Name, IIRC.

Mind you, at that Elminster was one of the most thoroughly transgendered
characters _ever_, literally changing from male to female and back.

> It's all very positive and enlightened and terribly anacronistic. You
> know why they burnt witches at the stake IRL? Because that's what they
> called lesbians at the time, and murdering every last one of them was a
> rather popular trick for travelling entertainers. At least D&D is a
> meritocracy, it doesn't matter what they local cranks think of you once
> you're 4th level.

[Loren Pechtel]

On 25 Feb 2013 21:52:15 GMT, Keith Davies <keith....@kjdavies.org>
wrote:

>> Where did those subatomic particles (almost all neutrons) come from
>> but the plutonium? They vanish when the polymorph ends, as well as
>> all the fission products.
>
>Do they? They're not plutonium any more.

So? Why should that matter?

When the polymorph ends it should revert back to whatever it was,
albeit now scattered across a few miles.

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <20130224.073...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk>,

v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk ("ppint. at pplay") wrote:

> - you can buy socks clearly marked "left" and "right" for that;

We don't need another political argument, though, do we?
Mark the socks Troll and Trull...

Cheers
JOanna

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <rurki85pjbga9dvnr...@4ax.com>,

lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:

> Thus I present the plutonium turkey.

And we thought bird flu was bad...

Cheers
JOanna

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <9mcoi89qmvlhkvvh2...@4ax.com>,

lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:

> >Do they? They're not plutonium any more.
>
> So? Why should that matter?
>
> When the polymorph ends it should revert back to whatever it was,
> albeit now scattered across a few miles.

Actually you aren't going to get plutonium at all:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph-any-object

> This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as
> copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine.
> It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order
> to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.

If it can't polymorph lead into gold, it sure isn't going to produce
radioactive elements, let alone plutonium.

Cheers
JOanna

[tussock]

Keith Davies wrote:
> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> Keith Davies wrote:

>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I realize I did it wrong. We shouldn't be polymorphing
>>>> lead--that's too much like plutonium. Instead, we want something far
>>>> from plutonium so the duration is short.
>>>>
>>>> Thus I present the plutonium turkey. The duration will be only 1
>>>> round/level. Lets say we are level 20, it lasts two minutes.
>>>>
>>>> Our turkey goes boom and two minutes later virtually all the fallout
>>>> vanishes! (On the other hand you might say the fallout vanishes
>>>> instantly anyway as it's now separated from the polymorphed item.)
>>>
>>> The scattered plutonium may disappear (returned to atomized turkey), but
>>> if I'm not mistaken you're still going to have a lot of radiation in the
>>> area in the other materials bombarded with subatomic particles.
>>
>> Where did those subatomic particles (almost all neutrons) come from
>> but the plutonium? They vanish when the polymorph ends, as well as
>> all the fission products.
>
> Do they? They're not plutonium any more.

Silly birds, removing things from the transmuted object causes them to
turn back to turkey. Energy /is/ things *AND THEREFORE* transmuted objects
are not self-explosive.

Not to mention there's only six elements in core D&D, eh. Turkey is of
the elements water and life and earth, Plutonium of the elements earth and
fire (oh, so very much fire).

--
tussock

[Loren Pechtel]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 12:01 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),

jrowlan...@cix.co.uk (Joanna Rowland Stuart) wrote:

What great intrinsic value does plutonium have? It's not valued due
to rarity because it doesn't even have rarity. All meaningful
quantities of plutonium come from atom smashers of some type. (A
breeder reactor uses the ongoing fission reaction as an atom smasher
to breed more plutonium.) It's price is due to labor, not scarcity.

Likewise, we aren't asking for any magical properties.

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <muaqi8p8ma4j77fiu...@4ax.com>,

lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:

> What great intrinsic value does plutonium have?

It does however have one intrinsic value - it's fissionable

True cold iron has "special properties" that overcome some forms of DR,
and cold iron made via Polymorph doesn't.

Plutonium has special properties (spontaneous fission), which presumably
don't exist in any version of it created by Polymorph. My reasoning is
thus:

Pu244 is the most stable isotope with a half life of 80 million years,
and is the only one existing in nature in trace amounts from primordial
deposits.
Pu239, Pu240 and Pu241 are the only fissile isotopes of Plutonium.

RAW I would expect Polymorph to produce lots of Pu244, which although
emitting significant beta radiation, would not be fissile.

Cheers
JOanna
(former nuclear scientist, BNFL)

[Jim Davies]

On the grave of Loren Pechtel <lorenp...@hotmail.com> is inscribed:

>What great intrinsic value does plutonium have?

ITYM gold, which has precious little intrinsic value. Quite good for
electrical contacts and so forth, but that's pretty much it. OTOH, I
don't think much has been done with Pu; it might make a very fine
catalyst or magnet, if the likes of Cerium and Dysprosium are anything
to go by. All those unfilled outer orbitals.

>It's not valued due
>to rarity because it doesn't even have rarity.

Except by being so staggeringly rare in nature that it would redefine
the word to mean 'absent'.

>All meaningful
>quantities of plutonium come from atom smashers of some type. (A
>breeder reactor uses the ongoing fission reaction as an atom smasher
>to breed more plutonium.) It's price is due to labor, not scarcity.

Without that scarcity, the labour would be unnecessary and the price
would drop.

Of course we in the UK have 200 tons of the stuff we can't give away.
At least not to the sort of people who should be allowed to have it.

--
Jim

http://www.aaargh.org

[Loren Pechtel]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 00:08 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),

jrowlan...@cix.co.uk (Joanna Rowland Stuart) wrote:

>In article <muaqi8p8ma4j77fiu...@4ax.com>,
>lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:
>
>> What great intrinsic value does plutonium have?
>It does however have one intrinsic value - it's fissionable

But the stuff ruled out for polymorph is magical or used as a store of
value.

>True cold iron has "special properties" that overcome some forms of DR,
>and cold iron made via Polymorph doesn't.

But cold iron isn't really any different, this must be a magical
property.

>Pu244 is the most stable isotope with a half life of 80 million years,
>and is the only one existing in nature in trace amounts from primordial
>deposits.
>Pu239, Pu240 and Pu241 are the only fissile isotopes of Plutonium.

While a few atoms of natural Pu244 might exist on the Earth that's not
the only source.

There is a very low-probably decay path U-238 -> Np-238 -> Pu-238. It
still should produce vastly more plutonium than primordial Pu-244.

There's also the possibiity of a U-238 atom decaying by spontaneous
fission and another nearby U-238 atom absorbing a neutron and going
U-239 -> Np-239 -> Pu-239. While this is a low-probability decay path
it's still much more common than the path to Pu-238. I can't find any
numbers on how likely a neutron is to end up in another U-238 atom,
though--it would be highly situational anyway.

>
>RAW I would expect Polymorph to produce lots of Pu244, which although
>emitting significant beta radiation, would not be fissile.

You might have a point here but I think the problem would be Pu-238,
not Pu-244.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 00:43:05 +0000, Jim Davies
<j...@aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org> wrote:

>On the grave of Loren Pechtel <lorenp...@hotmail.com> is inscribed:
>
>>What great intrinsic value does plutonium have?
>
>ITYM gold, which has precious little intrinsic value. Quite good for
>electrical contacts and so forth, but that's pretty much it. OTOH, I
>don't think much has been done with Pu; it might make a very fine
>catalyst or magnet, if the likes of Cerium and Dysprosium are anything
>to go by. All those unfilled outer orbitals.

Somehow I think the idea of relying on the chemical properties of
something that's going to decay and needs to be pure doesn't seem to
bright to me.

>>It's not valued due
>>to rarity because it doesn't even have rarity.
>
>Except by being so staggeringly rare in nature that it would redefine
>the word to mean 'absent'.

It exists. There are natural atoms of various isotopes of Pu
wandering around. It's an atom here, an atom there but it does exist.

>>All meaningful
>>quantities of plutonium come from atom smashers of some type. (A
>>breeder reactor uses the ongoing fission reaction as an atom smasher
>>to breed more plutonium.) It's price is due to labor, not scarcity.
>
>Without that scarcity, the labour would be unnecessary and the price
>would drop.
>
>Of course we in the UK have 200 tons of the stuff we can't give away.
>At least not to the sort of people who should be allowed to have it.

I don't see how this rules it out as something that can be made by
polymorph.

Joanna has a better argument against it--the plutonium turkey might
turn out to contain too little fissile material.

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <edmqi8lpksdr91pka...@4ax.com>,

lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:

> But cold iron isn't really any different, this must be a magical
> property.

You assume that. Nowhere in RAW is it so stated. It could be something as
simple as special magnetic properties.

Cheers
JOanna

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <utnqi8dddg5e50qq5...@4ax.com>,

lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:

> Joanna has a better argument against it--the plutonium turkey might
> turn out to contain too little fissile material.

Or what fissile material is present is contaminated with non-fissile
isotopes of Pu

I suppose if one VERY CAREFULLY used Wish, and the granting power was CE,
one might just get given the equivalent of a backpack nuke.

Of course, said CE deity would probably fiddle with the timer, so that
when you placed and armed the bomb, and before you could teleport:
"I'm a 30-second bomb, I'm a 30-second bomb, 29, 28, 27, I LIED!"
*FOOM*

Cheers
JOanna

[Loren Pechtel]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 14:01 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),

jrowlan...@cix.co.uk (Joanna Rowland Stuart) wrote:

Or with enough knowledge.

If you specifically polymorph it to Pu-239 you'll get a proper boom.

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <v2hsi8t9i3ba0hnaa...@4ax.com>,

lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:

> Or with enough knowledge.
>
> If you specifically polymorph it to Pu-239 you'll get a proper
> boom.

Oh agreed - but getting that knowledge would need a major quest, and
quite probably the help of a deity or two (and most deities would *not*
want nuclear devices of any sort on their world)

Cheers
JOanna

[Ubiquitous]

keith....@kjdavies.org wrote:
>tussock <sc...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>> Jim Davies wrote:

>>> As a point of incidental fact, there's an NPC gay couple in
>>> Pathfinder's Rise of the Runelords AP. The relationship forms a minor
>>> plot point.
>>
>> In B5, the witches in the woods are fairly obviously an older gay
>> couple. There's likely heaps of them tucked away here and there if you look.
>>
>> Paizo just pointed it out in the text, that two of the long-term male
>> friends in town are gay. Officially, they have quite a lot of gay and
>> bisexual NPCs, including at least one of the major villians and some

>> world-shakers, and "AT LEAST" one of the iconics is gay (though they won't

>> state which one in that case). Almost all of the potential love interests
>> are unspecified to let them be whatever works for each group.
>
>As I recall, Lheo (Elminster's scribe and helper) was reputed to be gay.
>I understand it was a false reputation; there's at least one scene
>post-hookup between Lheo and Storm What's-Her-Name, IIRC.
>
>Mind you, at that Elminster was one of the most thoroughly transgendered
>characters _ever_, literally changing from male to female and back.

ElMonster was also the biggest munchkin in the Munchkin Realms.

>> It's all very positive and enlightened and terribly anacronistic.

Fantasy Wargaming, as far as I know, is the only gamne to accurately portray the
time period.

>> You know why they burnt witches at the stake IRL? Because that's what they
>> called lesbians at the time, and murdering every last one of them was a
>> rather popular trick for travelling entertainers.

I guess we should consider ourselves lucky you didn't repeat the "faggot"
etymology nonsense too.

--
"Re-electing Obama is like backing The Titanic up and hitting the
iceberg a second time."

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 2/27/13 3:01 PM, Joanna Rowland Stuart wrote:
> In article <v2hsi8t9i3ba0hnaa...@4ax.com>,
> lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:
>
>> Or with enough knowledge.
>>
>> If you specifically polymorph it to Pu-239 you'll get a proper
>> boom.
> Oh agreed - but getting that knowledge would need a major quest,

Or just knowing it already. The Wanderer did.

Plenty of campaigns have crossover characters.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Loren Pechtel]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 20:01 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),

jrowlan...@cix.co.uk (Joanna Rowland Stuart) wrote:

Or some alchemist who figures out isotopes (not that he would actually
know what they were, just that they exist) by noting the difference
between hydrogen and deuterium.

Once you know there are isotopes you could develop a spell to separate
them.

Said alchemist then develops a spell to conjure up more of something
he has a sample of due to the tiny quantities he finds, too small to
study. (Look at the periodic table--note the missing melting and
boiling points of some of the atom-smasher-only type stuff.)

When things go very badly someone else comes along and raises him to
find out what happened.

[Jim Davies]

On the grave of Loren Pechtel <lorenp...@hotmail.com> is inscribed:

>On Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:01:43 -0600, "Nicole Massey"
><ny...@gypsyheir.com> wrote:
>
>>> I guess I need to go with Joanna's idea of Meteor Swarm rather than
>>> just Fireball.
>>
>>I wrote a 9th level spell called Nova that creates a thermonuclear
>>explosion. That would definitely leave a mark.
>
>9th?
>
>Polymorph any object, a hunk of lead into a hunk of plutonium.

The nuke discussion assumes that atomic physics works like it does
IRL. Many fantasy worlds have gunpowder available only as an
alchemical/magical substance, so it's pretty reasonable that other
chemical and nuclear explosives would be too. Or we'd all go around
with dynamite and C-4.

--
Jim

http://www.aaargh.org

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Too world dependent to even guess.

In other worlds, an open gateway to the heart of the sun would be the
way I'd do it (actually, it was the way I *did* do it in one game).

[Kyle Wilson]

jrowlan...@cix.co.uk (Joanna Rowland Stuart) wrote:

this all also assumes that with all of the tweakery needed to have
working magic in the world, nuclear physics still works in anything
remotely like the way it does in ours.

to me I'd prefer that things don't work anything like the way they do
here once you get down below the granularity exposed by the rules.
everything is magic to some degree and while at a gross level Newton's
laws seem to work, don't push it too far...
--

Kyle Wilson
email: myfirstname at ninecrows.com

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, conjuring up a bit of the sun's core would make quite a bang.

[Kyle Wilson]

jrowlan...@cix.co.uk (Joanna Rowland Stuart) wrote:

the rain of colorless fire :)

[Kyle Wilson]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

now that I like...and it doesn't require that nuclear physics work,
just that the sun is very very hot and very very big :)

[Kyle Wilson]

I believe that there was some cold war nuclear weapon that was
commonly referred to as a 'bucket of instant sunshine'...

hmm...ok, according to google-fu this comes from the RAF.

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <f36ti810hnfti04tg...@4ax.com>,

Usenet...@wilson.mv.com (Kyle Wilson) wrote:

> to me I'd prefer that things don't work anything like the way they
> do
> here once you get down below the granularity exposed by the rules.
> everything is magic to some degree and while at a gross level
> Newton's
> laws seem to work, don't push it too far...

Yep!

Cheers
JOanna

[Loren Pechtel]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 19:26:37 -0500, Kyle Wilson
<Usenet...@wilson.mv.com> wrote:

>>> In other worlds, an open gateway to the heart of the sun would be the
>>>way I'd do it (actually, it was the way I *did* do it in one game).
>>
>>Yeah, conjuring up a bit of the sun's core would make quite a bang.
>
>I believe that there was some cold war nuclear weapon that was
>commonly referred to as a 'bucket of instant sunshine'...
>
>hmm...ok, according to google-fu this comes from the RAF.

A chunk of degenerate helium would be much cleaner, though.

[tussock]

Loren Pechtel wrote:

> Or some alchemist who figures out isotopes (not that he would actually
> know what they were, just that they exist) by noting the difference
> between hydrogen and deuterium.

WHAT?!?! Am I being trolled?

Hydrogen was discovered in 1776. A gas of unique properties given off
when reacting certain strong acids with metal. That's massively beyond the
capacity of medieval alchemy.
Nothing fits for a start, there's no seals or ....

"It makes water when burned" => Hydro+gen; water maker. Mmm, names.

But /deuterium/ is 1931. That's not D&D, that's people summoning Cthulhu
by uncovering things man was not ment to know in the great depression. You
don't even get a periodic table until 1869 because there's not enough
elements known to notice the periodicity of effects.

<snip>
NOT.

--
tussock

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

So... the existence of magic and people finding they can do Really Neat
Things with different materials would have NO EFFECT on the historical
progress of research in materials?

[Loren Pechtel]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 22:44:27 +1300, tussock <sc...@clear.net.nz>
wrote:

You're talking a world where you can't use magic to purify things.

I believe elements would be discovered a lot earlier in a world with
magic, although things like the periodic table wouldn't come along
with them.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:12:42 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

> So... the existence of magic and people finding they can do Really Neat
>Things with different materials would have NO EFFECT on the historical
>progress of research in materials?

I think it would make for very uneven progress.

I believe all the natural elements would be discovered *MUCH* earlier
in a world with magic. We have a 0-level that can sort items, how
much higher would we need to go in order to sort compounds?

Then add some alchemist who figured out a spell that can rip apart
compounds and we have all the elements discovered in short order.

However, it would still be alchemy rather than chemistry at work. They
would be looking at things from a magical point of view which would
hinder the scientific discoveries to put order to such things.



(I also think the powers of the lower planes would be doing everything
they could to scuttle meaningful scientific inquiry. The D&D world is
something of a paradox in this regard--we have a middle-ages tech
level that seems to have existed for a very long time. Huh?? This
only makes sense if there is some opposing force.

My approach to this is that as the scientific revolution begins it's
such a threat to the powers of the lower planes that the blood war
gets put on the back burner while they cooperate in ensuring the
destruction of any such culture. Civilization gets knocked back, the
threat abates and they go back to fighting each other.)

[JimP.]

Like Amber, gunpowder doesn't explode on my game world Crestar.
.
JimP.
--
Brushing aside the thorns so I can see the stars.
http://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ Drive-In movie theaters
http://story.drivein-jim.net/ A story Feb, 2011

[Kyle Wilson]

JimP. <pongb...@cableone.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:31:40 +0000, Jim Davies
><j...@aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org> wrote:
>>On the grave of Loren Pechtel <lorenp...@hotmail.com> is inscribed:
>>
>>>On Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:01:43 -0600, "Nicole Massey"
>>><ny...@gypsyheir.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I guess I need to go with Joanna's idea of Meteor Swarm rather than
>>>>> just Fireball.
>>>>
>>>>I wrote a 9th level spell called Nova that creates a thermonuclear
>>>>explosion. That would definitely leave a mark.
>>>
>>>9th?
>>>
>>>Polymorph any object, a hunk of lead into a hunk of plutonium.
>>
>>The nuke discussion assumes that atomic physics works like it does
>>IRL. Many fantasy worlds have gunpowder available only as an
>>alchemical/magical substance, so it's pretty reasonable that other
>>chemical and nuclear explosives would be too. Or we'd all go around
>>with dynamite and C-4.
>
>Like Amber, gunpowder doesn't explode on my game world Crestar.

Yep. Even if there is some fine scale complexity similar in nature to
our atoms and molecules, there is no reason to expect that knowledge
from our universe would translate. Clearly magic works and over the
millennia smart people have figured out enough to get some pretty
complex effects from it. If they haven't found any of the other
disciplines that we've come to understand, perhaps in the game
universe those sorts of things aren't possible...

[Harold Groot]

I tend to agree with this approach. SOMETHING sure seems to be holding
back the scientific world. In Forgotten Realms I've seen enough
datapoints to say that non-magic tech hasn't seemed to progress
noticeably in over 30,000 years. Middle Ages back then, still Middle
Ages now. The amount of magic in use cycles up and down (Netheril,
etc.), but the non-magic tech is essentially unchanged. And while I'm
not as familiar with the timelines in other campaign worlds, I can't
recall anything to suggest it's significantly different in those. But
if there's something inherently "non-inventive" about the people/races
in the game, how long must it have taken for them to reach even Middle
Ages Tech - a million years? I suspect that that isn't what is
supposed to have happened. So this suggests that there's either some
active opposition to going beyond a certain point (such as you
suggest), or there was a worldchanging event 30,000+ years ago that
removed non-magical inventiveness from all the races once they reached
that level of tech, or SOMETHING.

[Loren Pechtel]

I hadn't considered that possibility but I don't think it works
anyway. We see societies rise and fall, that pretty much requires
non-magical inventiveness.

Something is bringing societies down and I can't see anything that
would do this again and again other than the guys from the lower
planes.

It also provides a good reason for all sorts of plot twists as the bad
guys manipulate good guys into fighting good guys.

[Rick Pikul]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 13:25:05 -0800, Loren Pechtel wrote:

> My approach to this is that as the scientific revolution begins it's
> such a threat to the powers of the lower planes that the blood war
> gets put on the back burner while they cooperate in ensuring the
> destruction of any such culture. Civilization gets knocked back, the
> threat abates and they go back to fighting each other.)

You could also have a mix of opposing forces. What happens to a society
that has the following three things:

Small groups of malcontents being able to cause massive magical effects.

An understanding that hitting something with a very fast moving rock does
a lot of damage.

An awareness that there are some really big, really fast moving, rocks
floating around that just might be guided into hitting something you
dislike, (like, say, a nation).


(OK, you get the plot of the Second Darkness Adventure Path.)


You wouldn't just have "we don't want them to go too far" but also "there
is a point where you find all kinds of big red reset buttons for people to
press."

--
Chakat Firepaw - Inventor & Scientist (Mad)

[Loren Pechtel]

On 1 Mar 2013 08:09:15 GMT, "Rick Pikul" <chakat...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The thing is the discovery of such major effects wouldn't become lost
knowledge.

You don't just make a spell of asteroid-calling out of the blue and
the knowledge that lead to it would survive. Using a reset button
could easily wipe the details but it's not going to eliminate whole
concepts.

After things have fallen apart people will still know about things
like plate mail even if there isn't anyone around with the
metalworking knowledge to make it.

Likewise, the sages will still know about the asteroids. Even if
every wizard who knows Call Asteroid perishes in the war there still
will be plenty of books around that discuss asteroids. The spell
would be quickly reinvented.

[Justisaur]

On Feb 28, 7:51 pm, Loren Pechtel <lorenpech...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 02:17:04 GMT, ques...@infionline.net (Harold

Very simply there are gods, they say "Here's all there is to know." no
one checks any further. Dark Ages - although it stopped at a little
higher tech level, it may have even begun at that tech level
considering the world really was created.

Sure there's a few wizards who know there's more to things than the
gods are letting on, but they mostly pursue the magic side of things,
and don't share with each other.

Then you get wizards who accumulate all the previous knowledge, have
that spark that allows them to create new stuff and you get a magical
apocalypse (whole bunch of them in FR) wiping out all that condensed
knowledge,or they ascend with it all, and things go back to normal for
the rest of everyone.

- Justisaur

[tussock]

Loren Pechtel wrote:

> tussock wrote:

>><snip>
>> NOT.
>
> You're talking a world where you can't use magic to purify things.

D&D is a world where you can't use magic to purify /things in general/.
Only very specific things can be treated so, generally by divine magic for
life-giving purposes, from Gods who do not want you building the tower of
Babylon and becoming as one of them.

And also, *only six elements*.

> I believe elements would be discovered a lot earlier in a world with
> magic, although things like the periodic table wouldn't come along
> with them.

I belive endless dystopia under the grinding hell of invulnerable and
immortal sorcerer-kings would happen in about two weeks under 3e rules. You
hit 9th level and the local godling Wizard pops in and harvests you for XP,
long before you could be any sort of threat, depositing your treasures back
in the underworld for the next lot of cattle to find.

Like Lolth did for AD&D drow, only for everyone.

--
tussock

[Loren Pechtel]

On Fri, 1 Mar 2013 15:39:44 -0800 (PST), Justisaur
<just...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I hadn't considered that possibility but I don't think it works
>> anyway.  We see societies rise and fall, that pretty much requires
>> non-magical inventiveness.
>>
>> Something is bringing societies down and I can't see anything that
>> would do this again and again other than the guys from the lower
>> planes.
>
>Very simply there are gods, they say "Here's all there is to know." no
>one checks any further. Dark Ages - although it stopped at a little
>higher tech level, it may have even begun at that tech level
>considering the world really was created.
>
>Sure there's a few wizards who know there's more to things than the
>gods are letting on, but they mostly pursue the magic side of things,
>and don't share with each other.
>
>Then you get wizards who accumulate all the previous knowledge, have
>that spark that allows them to create new stuff and you get a magical
>apocalypse (whole bunch of them in FR) wiping out all that condensed
>knowledge,or they ascend with it all, and things go back to normal for
>the rest of everyone.

The world has existed for a *LONG* time--how else do you explain all
the ancient loot we dig out of dungeons?

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <51ivi8hi2l9gl8jmp...@4ax.com>,

lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:

> The D&D world is
> something of a paradox in this regard--we have a middle-ages tech
> level that seems to have existed for a very long time. Huh?? This
> only makes sense if there is some opposing force.

Such as technology (beyond a certain level) and magic being incompatible -
one suppresses the other.

Cheers
JOanna

[Loren Pechtel]

On Sat, 2 Mar 2013 02:29 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),

jrowlan...@cix.co.uk (Joanna Rowland Stuart) wrote:

Except we see various adventures with things like steam engines. Early
renissance tech is showing up in isolated locations--if there's some
tech limit society would be up against it.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 02:28:06 +1300, tussock <sc...@clear.net.nz>
wrote:

>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> tussock wrote:
>
>>><snip>
>>> NOT.
>>
>> You're talking a world where you can't use magic to purify things.
>
> D&D is a world where you can't use magic to purify /things in general/.
>Only very specific things can be treated so, generally by divine magic for
>life-giving purposes, from Gods who do not want you building the tower of
>Babylon and becoming as one of them.

I was thinking of a cantrip that picks items out of a pile. It
certainly should be possible to develop a spell that does it at a
lower level.

> And also, *only six elements*.

So, a universe with six elements that replace protons, electrons and
neutrons. That might keep a bomb from working, it wouldn't keep
things from being discovered.

>> I believe elements would be discovered a lot earlier in a world with
>> magic, although things like the periodic table wouldn't come along
>> with them.
>
> I belive endless dystopia under the grinding hell of invulnerable and
>immortal sorcerer-kings would happen in about two weeks under 3e rules. You
>hit 9th level and the local godling Wizard pops in and harvests you for XP,
>long before you could be any sort of threat, depositing your treasures back
>in the underworld for the next lot of cattle to find.
>
> Like Lolth did for AD&D drow, only for everyone.

Perhaps to avoid a threat, but not for xp.

[Kyle Wilson]

Loren Pechtel <lorenp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 02:28:06 +1300, tussock <sc...@clear.net.nz>
>wrote:
>
>>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>> tussock wrote:
>>
>>>><snip>
>>>> NOT.
>>>
>>> You're talking a world where you can't use magic to purify things.
>>
>> D&D is a world where you can't use magic to purify /things in general/.
>>Only very specific things can be treated so, generally by divine magic for
>>life-giving purposes, from Gods who do not want you building the tower of
>>Babylon and becoming as one of them.
>
>I was thinking of a cantrip that picks items out of a pile. It
>certainly should be possible to develop a spell that does it at a
>lower level.
>
>> And also, *only six elements*.
>
>So, a universe with six elements that replace protons, electrons and
>neutrons. That might keep a bomb from working, it wouldn't keep
>things from being discovered.

ah, but a universe where the fine structure is magic and there aren't
any clever fine grained tricks to play like we do in our universe (and
thus magic is the only 'trick' available) might do the job. No
equivalent of protons, neutrons and electrons...just magical fields
gluing all of reality together and mages are the closest thing you get
to scientists, but perhaps there aren't any deep magics to be found
like those we play with here in our realm...

>>> I believe elements would be discovered a lot earlier in a world with
>>> magic, although things like the periodic table wouldn't come along
>>> with them.
>>
>> I belive endless dystopia under the grinding hell of invulnerable and
>>immortal sorcerer-kings would happen in about two weeks under 3e rules. You
>>hit 9th level and the local godling Wizard pops in and harvests you for XP,
>>long before you could be any sort of threat, depositing your treasures back
>>in the underworld for the next lot of cattle to find.
>>
>> Like Lolth did for AD&D drow, only for everyone.
>
>Perhaps to avoid a threat, but not for xp.

[Kyle Wilson]

magic uses the will of individuals to impose new order on the nearby
universe. in a realm like those described by D&D games, perhaps these
things too are essentially magical (and would/will stop working when
the artificer who created them leaves). If they're no different from
other enchanted items then they're just interesting realizations of
transport spells and such... they look like steam-punk-ish tech, but
under the covers they're no different from golems or other constructs.
the semblance of technology is all they have in common with our
universe...

[Kyle Wilson]

jrowlan...@cix.co.uk (Joanna Rowland Stuart) wrote:

I rather like the idea that at a fine grained level magic replaces the
atoms and forces that make our world work. A big enough magnifier in
the game world wouldn't show you molecules and fundamental particles,
it would show you some sort of magical fields and arcane elements.
Ultimately that means that none of the stuff we're used to beyond
simple machines will work and some of the more complex purely
mechanical bits (difference engines and such) may not work either. The
rules are genuinely different. Doesn't make much difference at the
level of game play, but it both explains why there aren't
technological items being created.

[Rick Pikul]

On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 09:23:41 -0800, Loren Pechtel wrote:

> Likewise, the sages will still know about the asteroids. Even if
> every wizard who knows Call Asteroid perishes in the war there still
> will be plenty of books around that discuss asteroids. The spell
> would be quickly reinvented.

How long would those books survive in a readable state?

Using my source of inspiration for that example, the Pathfinder setting,
the last time the asteroid calling ritual was used it took out almost every
advanced society on the planet, destroyed a continent and left the surface
in darkness for a thousand years.

With nasty things like that possible, you might find some of the gods who
cover things like invention sending bad omens at those who start down the
roads to the extremely nasty stuff.

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <23v2j8lr4v6gifl69...@4ax.com>,

lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:

> Except we see various adventures with things like steam engines.
> Early
> renissance tech is showing up in isolated locations

That's still relatively low tech. Gunpowder and explosives already work
differently in D&D, and steam power is way low tech.

I can fully understand why radioactivity would work differently in D&D
(no critical or supercritical reactions, just varying degrees of
radioactivity a.k.a. "poison metal")

Cheers
JOanna

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <kgsbc...@news4.newsguy.com>, chakat...@gmail.com (Rick

Pikul) wrote:

> With nasty things like that possible, you might find some of the
> gods who
> cover things like invention sending bad omens at those who start
> down the
> roads to the extremely nasty stuff.

The gods would more likely divert the first such asteroid, publicly
incinerate the offending mage, have their priests hunt down all similar
inventors and make bonfires out of them, and make it known that any
similar adventures will end badly

Cheers
JOanna

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 3/2/13 9:36 AM, Joanna Rowland Stuart wrote:
> In article <23v2j8lr4v6gifl69...@4ax.com>,
> lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:
>
>> Except we see various adventures with things like steam engines.
>> Early
>> renissance tech is showing up in isolated locations
> That's still relatively low tech. Gunpowder and explosives already work
> differently in D&D, and steam power is way low tech.
>

Depends on which version of D&D you're talking about. There are modules
going all the way back to the original Blackmoor supplement which
featured high-tech gadgetry -- power armor, lasers, regular explosives,
the whole nine yards.

It's really entirely the GM's interpretation and judgment there. In my
game, everything works. In the Middle-Earth game described in "An
American Gamer in Gondor", gunpowder worked to a point (basically, it
wouldn't work in guns, but would work as a standard bomb, and even as a
bomb it had a limit to explosive power) but I could HELP it work with
magic added and the basic laws of physics I could still exploit a lot.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Again, so campaign dependent. The gods might be cowering in their
bunkers in other campaigns. That's a LOT of power you're throwing around
-- enough so that even Primal Order deities would be really reluctant to
try that throwdown.

Assuming also the mage in question wasn't already on his way to
ascending, etc.

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <kgt2uo$hf1$1...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com (Sea

Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)) wrote:

> Depends on which version of D&D you're talking about.

Oh agreed. For me, if a D&D setting has power armour, lasers, HE, then it
also will have the capability for atomics. But then I wouldn't use D&D -
I'd use another game system entirely. For me D&D is all about low-tech,
high-magic, medieval/renaissance fantasy gaming.

Cheers
JOanna

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <kgt33i$hf1$2...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com (Sea

Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)) wrote:

> The gods might be cowering in their
> bunkers in other campaigns. That's a LOT of power you're throwing
> around

The gods can alter reality in really, really serious ways. Unless of
course they are puny gods. And, an ounce of prevention is better than a
teraton of cure. All they have to do is keep both magic and tech from
getting too strong in the first place.

And if things get too hairy, just drop an asteroid on Istar...

Cheers
JOanna

[Kyle Wilson]

jrowlan...@cix.co.uk (Joanna Rowland Stuart) wrote:

>In article <23v2j8lr4v6gifl69...@4ax.com>,
>lorenp...@hotmail.com (Loren Pechtel) wrote:
>
>> Except we see various adventures with things like steam engines.
>> Early
>> renissance tech is showing up in isolated locations
>That's still relatively low tech. Gunpowder and explosives already work
>differently in D&D, and steam power is way low tech.

One interesting option on the steam power (and higher tech) ends would
be that past a point in energy density you start spawning magical
effects (energy goes into spontaneously creating elementals or other
such) rather than increasing steam pressure and useful work produced.
The unpredictability of things magical in such cases might also
mitigate against folks finding uses for the leakage that were
troublesome...

>I can fully understand why radioactivity would work differently in D&D
>(no critical or supercritical reactions, just varying degrees of
>radioactivity a.k.a. "poison metal")
>
>Cheers
>JOanna

[Loren Pechtel]

On 2 Mar 2013 07:57:04 GMT, "Rick Pikul" <chakat...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Leaving the surface in darkness for a thousand years would take out
everything other than bacteria, deep sea vent life, the undead (and
other non-eaters) and those who could escape to other worlds.

It wouldn't do much to books, though. A high quality book will be
perfectly readable after 1000 years. With Make Whole it will be in
fine shape far longer than that. (You find a book, if handling causes
trouble promptly cast a Make Whole on it.)

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 3/2/13 1:02 PM, Joanna Rowland Stuart wrote:
> In article <kgt33i$hf1$2...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com (Sea
> Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)) wrote:
>
>> The gods might be cowering in their
>> bunkers in other campaigns. That's a LOT of power you're throwing
>> around
> The gods can alter reality in really, really serious ways. Unless of
> course they are puny gods.

"Puny God."

Gods run the gamut in levels of power. So do PCs. And sometimes the two
are the same thing.

[David Lamb]

On 02/03/2013 2:19 PM, Loren Pechtel wrote:
> It wouldn't do much to books, though. A high quality book will be
> perfectly readable after 1000 years. With Make Whole it will be in
> fine shape far longer than that. (You find a book, if handling causes
> trouble promptly cast a Make Whole on it.)

Not if the post-apocalypse population blames all those bookish mages for
the problem, and burns everything readable.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 14:42:28 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>On 3/2/13 1:02 PM, Joanna Rowland Stuart wrote:
>> In article <kgt33i$hf1$2...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com (Sea
>> Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)) wrote:
>>
>>> The gods might be cowering in their
>>> bunkers in other campaigns. That's a LOT of power you're throwing
>>> around
>> The gods can alter reality in really, really serious ways. Unless of
>> course they are puny gods.
>
> "Puny God."
>
> Gods run the gamut in levels of power. So do PCs. And sometimes the two
>are the same thing.

As far as I'm concerned mortals simply can't kill gods on their own
plane. On another plane they're just dispelled back home.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 15:30:36 -0500, David Lamb <dal...@cs.queensu.ca>
wrote:

That's assuming they find them all. We keep digging loot out of very
well guarded places in dungeons, the post-apocolypse population won't
be able to burn them all.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Certainly in your campaign you can have it that way, but in many
others, that's not the case.

[David Lamb]

On 02/03/2013 11:31 PM, Loren Pechtel wrote:
> That's assuming they find them all. We keep digging loot out of very
> well guarded places in dungeons, the post-apocolypse population won't
> be able to burn them all.

When they kill the last mage who can cast "read magic" all those books
do no good.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

When they keep new mages from being born and all of them from ever
discovering the spell "read magic", maybe.

That's the classic blunder of "suppress the idea!". It never works. The
only way to stop it is kill EVERYONE.

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <kh02l8$jug$4...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com (Sea

Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)) wrote:

> That's the classic blunder of "suppress the idea!". It never works.
> The only way to stop it is kill EVERYONE.

And then pond life evolves to a new intelligent life form, because there
HAS to be something to worship the gods, otherwise their power is
diminished. And the same sorry tale runs its course again.

Cheers
JOanna

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

So, Davros had the RIGHT idea. DETONATE THE REALITY BOMB!

[Loren Pechtel]

On Sun, 03 Mar 2013 11:40:42 -0500, David Lamb <dal...@cs.queensu.ca>
wrote:

Society has returned, new mages have read magic.

[David Lamb]

How did they learn the spell? Poof, I decide I'm a mage, I automatically
learn Read Magic? I don't think so.

[Jim Davies]

On the grave of David Lamb <dal...@cs.queensu.ca> is inscribed:

Find a Sorcerer to teach you. Or a cleric with the Magic domain.

--
Jim

http://www.aaargh.org

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

No, but as time goes on, someone will invent it -- the idea of making
magical writing will be obvious, and if they find a cache of old books,
they'll have even more incentive once they realize there's some good
stuff in there.

Read Magic was a first level spell. It's not going to be hard to
rediscover/reinvent.

Unless they're going to yank magic ITSELF from the world, that "kill
'em all" trick won't work.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Sun, 03 Mar 2013 17:40:47 -0500, David Lamb <dal...@cs.queensu.ca>

wrote:

>On 03/03/2013 5:12 PM, Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> On Sun, 03 Mar 2013 11:40:42 -0500, David Lamb <dal...@cs.queensu.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/03/2013 11:31 PM, Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>> That's assuming they find them all. We keep digging loot out of very
>>>> well guarded places in dungeons, the post-apocolypse population won't
>>>> be able to burn them all.
>>>
>>> When they kill the last mage who can cast "read magic" all those books
>>> do no good.
>>
>> Society has returned, new mages have read magic.
>>
>
>How did they learn the spell? Poof, I decide I'm a mage, I automatically
>learn Read Magic? I don't think so.

Magic is rediscovered. The same things that lead to the spell before
lead to it again.

[Rick Pikul]

On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 14:39:00 +0000, Joanna Rowland Stuart wrote:

> The gods would more likely divert the first such asteroid, publicly
> incinerate the offending mage, have their priests hunt down all similar
> inventors and make bonfires out of them, and make it known that any
> similar adventures will end badly

That's not always an option. To begin with it assumes that the gods can
engage in large-scale interventions.

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <kh1ih...@news1.newsguy.com>, chakat...@gmail.com (Rick

Pikul) wrote:

> To begin with it assumes that the gods can
> engage in large-scale interventions.

In my campaigns, they always can. Usually by mutual agreement with
whichever other gods have just as much to lose should humanity start
buggering up the planet beyond repair.

And in my campaigns, very high level characters may get to demi-godhood
(c.f. Jason, Perseus, Herakles), usually with the occasional help and
tacit connivance of a patron deity, but they will still be pipsqueaks
compared to the lesser gods, let alone the greater gods...

Cheers
JOanna

[Tetsubo]

If you are a Sorcerer that is in fact *exactly* how it works.

--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57

[David Lamb]

On 03/03/2013 12:54 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/3/13 11:40 AM, David Lamb wrote:
>> On 02/03/2013 11:31 PM, Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>> That's assuming they find them all. We keep digging loot out of very
>>> well guarded places in dungeons, the post-apocolypse population won't
>>> be able to burn them all.
>>
>> When they kill the last mage who can cast "read magic" all those books
>> do no good.
>
> When they keep new mages from being born and all of them from ever
> discovering the spell "read magic", maybe.
>
> That's the classic blunder of "suppress the idea!". It never works.
> The only way to stop it is kill EVERYONE.

I suppose, since Read Magic can read every form of magical writing of
every mage who ever lived anywhere, once someone rediscovers it the jig
is up. Then someone researches Comprehend Languages and they can read
every book in every language ever written. So civilization restarts.

I concede. Magic trumps all.