Why V:tM is superior to AD&D
Ian Hodges
Joystarr wrote:
> 1. Age level: While age and maturity are not identical, age certainly
> affects maturity. Most new players of AD&D are high school teenagers.
> As time goes on, some of these teens grow up and mature a bit, and get
> interested in the more mature White Wolf games after they enter college.
Not true. I know gamers of all ages that play both games at equal age
difference. Age is a bad stereotype.
> 2. Education level: Linked to #1, above. Since most players of WW games
> start in college, it is clear that most WW gamers are more educated than
> most AD&D players. NOTE that this is only a generalization! While it
> would be foolish to claim that AD&D players do not enter college, it
> would be equally foolish to deny that most gamers do not get interested
> in the more mature White Wolf games until they are "ready".
Both games are just that, games. You are referring back to age here. While
the "older" kids play White Wolf, the "younger" kids play AD&D. That is also
a stereotype.
> 3. Moral Complexity: AD&D has strict definitions of "Good" and "Evil", as
> well as "Law" and "Chaos". White Wolf games (even the combat-oriented
> Werewolf) are presented upon a backdrop of moral relativism much more
> closely in tune with the real world. It is like an adolescent's "black
> and white" moral view compared to the more "grey" moral view of a mature,
> educated adult, with room for nuances of behavior, personality, and
> situation that the AD&D moral straightjacket and blinders simply do not
> allow for.
Alignment in AD&D is just a tool for beginning player. Nowhere in the rules
do they TELL you to play one on those nine alignments.
> 4. Language Level: The standard AD&D rulebooks (2nd Edition) were written
> for high school (or younger) children. While the 1st Edition AD&D books
> were written by Gary Gygax for an "older" crowd, it is clear where the
> AD&D game has evolved (DEvolved?) to. Even considering Gygax's complex
> "purple prose", the typical White Wolf manual or handbook scores higher
> on any modern text editor when scanned for reading level (2nd Edition
> AD&D = 6th Grade level, 1st Edition AD&D = 10th Grade level, and White
> Wolf products = early college level).
You actually pay attention to text editors? I have seen Harvard level essays
score low, and high school papers score very high. This example you give is a
bad one.
> 5. Adult Artwork: AD&D is specifically designed to shield children from
> the harsh vagaries of the modern world. Because of this (and the fact
> that Mommy and Daddy are shelling out the dough for TSR), AD&D artwork
> tends to be second-rate to third-rate because of the restriction of the
> artists who work for TSR. This is true of written work as well as visual
> art, but I am speaking primarily of visual artwork here. Because WW
> employs artists who are more free to forge ahead as the spirit moves
> them, they end up with higher-quality art. Consider that even AD&D
> "modern artistic legends" like DiTerlizzi got their creative starts with
> White Wolf.
This might be true. I agree White Wolf has better artwork. However with
artists like DiTerlizzi making the monster books, (He drew every monster in
Monstrous Annual Compendium Vol 1) the balance will soon shift.
> 6. LARP: The clear reason why WW has been able to successfully inspire
> local artists to perform LARP games on a regular basis in most
> communities is the superior creativity, organization, and overall
> maturity levels of the White Wolf gamers. Remember that AD&D fans have
> tried unsuccessfully to set up their own LARP-type games for years, and
> have never been able to get past the "hack-'em-up" swords and male power
> fantasy stage.
At least AD&D had a decent combat system. Come on! Are you telling me that
rolling 10 dice for 1 hit, then rolling 5 more for block, 6 more for damage,
then about 7 for soak is a good combat system?!?! THAT is why I play AD&D my
friend. Combat is fast, furious, and as detailed or simple as you please.
Sometimes to be vague is bliss.
> 7. Female Interest: It is painfully clear to most honest AD&D players
> that very few females are interested in their hobby. This is the result
> fo a variety of problems. First, the overall lower maturity level of
> (male) AD&D gamers really turns women off to the game. Women
> just do not want to drink beer, burp, fart, and talk about
> "titties" all night long. Secondly, women are generally superior to men
> in maturity, especially earlier in life. This means that they will
> automatically be attracted to the "higher-order" (maturity-wise) White
> Wolf games. And they are! Few White Wolf gaming groups have trouble
> finding female gamers, and a great number of WW groups have a 50% (or
> higher!) female gamer quotient.
Boy are you stuck on this maturity thing. I have seen some White Wolf players
so immature that you literally want to puke. White Wolf gamers are extremely
freeform. Which means no rules. But how can you be free form, when your rules
system is inconsistent. Need I get into the ridiculous Magick rules?
> 8. Ethnicity: In my experience, and the experience of many other White
> Wolf gamers I have spoken with, there is a much higher degree of
> multiculturalism at the gaming table in the average WW game when compared
> to the average AD&D game. This is probably for a variety of reasons,
> including the average overall higher level of education of White Wolf
> gamers. Remember, too, the lack of moral relativism in AD&D, which
> promotes separatist "black and white" moral reasoning, thereby subtly
> promoting feelings of cultural superiority and isolationism. My own
> gaming group consists of a Black male Storyteller, two White females, one
> White (Jewish) male, an Arabic male, and an Hispanic/Native American
> female.
Need I reply to this?
> 9. Psychoanalytic Potential: While not a staple of the genre, most White
> Wolf games allow players to more fully explore who they truly are, to get
> a better feel for their "true" inner "characters". While admittedly
> POSSIBLE in AD&D, this sort of transcendental experience is generally
> blocked by the excessive AD&D dwelling on combat and male power fantasy.
> Lacking a feminine, introspective element, AD&D is a malformed,
> underdeveloped vehicle for the sort of personal journeys possible under
> the inspiration of the superior Storyteller (as opposed to
> "hack-n'-slayer") system.
Superior Storyteller? Feminine introspect? What the hell do you think this
is? If you White Wolf players want to be freeform, to act out every damn
thing, and to be serious about everything, then keep it to yourselves. We
AD&D "underdeveloped hack and slashers" enjoy beating the tar out of orcs,
slaying dragons, and we STILL can act out and be freeform, and act like a
royal pissant if we want to. You are upset that we have a DECENT game system.
As opposed to White Wolf, which is, well...sad.
> 10. Most AD&D players know that the Storyteller system is much more
> mature and sophisticated, whether they admit it to themselves or not.
> This is evidenced by the fact that "straight" AD&D gamers and
> "straight" WW gamers, when mixed together, often have difficulties
> interacting. The AD&D players often complain of the WW gamers' "pompous"
> or "snobbish" attitudes (as the less developed people often do), while
> the WW people actually have no real beef with the AD&D people. They
> simply have nothing to say to them, having already found something more
> to their liking and grown weary of trying to convince the AD&D players
> to try something new, only to get shot down by the non-creative and
> immature.
I think what you mean to say is, we AD&D gamers are not afraid to try
something new, we try it, say it sucks, and go back to playing AD&D. White
Wolf players play AD&D, switch to white wolf, and for some reason stay there.
It is no different for Gurps, Champions, Cyberpunk. There is something in
each game that people can relate to.
> Please note that I mean no offense to the average AD&D player here! Many
> White Wolf players got their start with AD&D, and as such the gaming
> system should be treated with the respect it deserves. AD&D is typically
> an excellent vehicle for the indoctrination of youthful teens into the
> gaming community at large, and most WW gamers feel that their "AD&D
> Years" were an important part of their development. However, like
> anything else, there is a time when the superior must inevitably move on
> to higher-order challenges.
And I mean no harm to White Wolf. Just speaking my mind and laying down the
facts. As far a that superior inevitably crap, save it for people who give a
rats ass.
Bauser.
http://www.modemradio.com
Bausers Roomers
Christian Walker
Joystarr wrote in message <36E0ED...@ll.wsbe.com>...
Didn't we just go through this with an AD&D vs. Shadowrun thread. Here's
a newsflash for you. Now pay close attention, because I don't want you to
get lost: You cannot provide infallible truth that one game is
'superior' to another because taste is /subjective/ not /objective/.
Trying to prove otherwise is a futile exercise.
>1. Age level
Wrong. Your progression of gaming style is an opinion, not fact. How do
you account for the large number of role-players who begin with White
Wolf? There is a 17 year old kid in my game now who first started out on
White Wolf and is now playing AD&D. Your 'unpoint' is rather absurd.
When a person begins playing a game has nothing to do with the superiority
of that game.
>2. Education level: Linked to #1, above.
While you claim to not make generalizations about the educational level of
White Wolf players you do just that. Yet again, there is absolutely no
correlation between academic level and what game a person plays. Again,
how do you account for the large numbers of High School WW players?
>
>3. Moral Complexity:
AD&D games offer amazing degrees of moral complexity. WW certainly has no
claim to this. While e behavior codes are crystallized in the form of
alignments, they do succeed at providing an interesting moral compass to
navigate by.
>4. Language Level: The standard AD&D rulebooks (2nd Edition) were written
>for high school (or younger) children.
The language of AD&D products is also straight forward and direct. I
could care less for the prose of White Wolf games. While you argue that
it is indicative of intellectual sophistication, I argue that it is
pretentious.
>5. Adult Artwork: AD&D is specifically designed to shield children from
>the harsh vagaries of the modern world.
TSR has contracted work from artists that I feel are of the highest
calibre for their genre. From the surreal works of Otus to the detailed
images of Elmore, TSR artists have done an admiral job of capturing the
imagination. If you think graphic content is a sign of a superior game,
then you are rather superficial. if its about pictures of boobies, then
the 1st Edition DMG had everyone beat.
>
>6. LARP:
While many think Gygax's critical remarks about the 'amateur thespians'
were aimed at AD&Ders who get into character, I think they are applicable
to LARPers. You are trying to take the moral high ground, arguing that
your game borders on art and is therefore more sublime. Bullocks. You
are just playing pretend, just like the table top gamers you so arrogantly
chastise.
>7. Female Interest: It is painfully clear to most honest AD&D players
>that very few females are interested in their hobby.
We don't have a problem attracting women to our games. Again, an
irrelevant point.
>
>8. Ethnicity:
In my group there is a an African American, a Filipino, a Mexican and
several Caucasians. We seem to have a decent cross section.
>9. Psychoanalytic Potential: The AD&D players often complain of the WW
>gamers' "pompous" or "snobbish" attitudes (as the less developed people
often >do), while the WW people actually have no real beef with the AD&D
people. >They simply have nothing to say to them, having already found
something more
>to their liking and grown weary of trying to convince the AD&D players
>to try something new, only to get shot down by the non-creative and
>immature.
>
Then what the hell are you trying to do here?!
>Please note that I mean no offense to the average AD&D player here!
Then what was the point of this post, besides being flamebait?
>If YOU have recently become "bored" or disappointed in your typical RPG,
>check out some of the wonderful White Wolf gaming products available at a
>gaming store near you!
>
Its the possibility of having to play with people like you that would keep
me from buying any WW product.
Remove the 'nospam' to reply via e-mail
********************************************
Talking in character? Here's something in
character, "Bite Me!!"
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*******************************************
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Christian Walker
Joystarr wrote in message <36E0FF...@ll.wsbe.com>...
>(Smiles)
>
>I am merely trying to enlighten!
>
How fortunate for us, then, that you have decided to grace this group with
your presence.
>White Wolf games may be played by children, but they are rarely
>understood in their entirety by them. Children are quite capable of
>grasping all that AD&D has to offer, however. You argument here is
>vacuous. You might as well claim that "Candyland" and Chess are
>equivalent in complexity and maturity level because children play both
>games.
>
Your argument is flawed. Children may be capable of grasping all AD&D has
to offer mechanics wise, but what they can learn from an individual
campaign may require just as much intellectual ability as the White Wolf
games you describe. Conversely, WW mechanics may be grasped as well. The
nuances of the World of Darkness do not require a vast amount of maturity
and intellect as you describe. The books that explore the various
factions and subtleties read like a novel. Many persons of junior high
level are capable of understanding novels and therefore could understand
the subtleties of the world.
Its all about what people choose to do with the setting and rules. WW
players could just as easily take their complex milieu and resort to silly
hack and slash style gaming, while a group could take basic AD&D rules and
the Forgotten Realms and weave a wonderfully elaborate tale.
>I knew some AD&D zealots would see things this way when I posted. Oh,
>well. It was not to people like you that I was truly speaking; rather, I
>was trying to enlightened those who were ready and prepared to move on to
>the next level of gaming.
Ah, nice save. he refutes your case by arguing that you cannot
objectively prove WW is superior to AD&D in any way. You counter by not
attacking his argument, but by calling him a zealot. Surely you have
taken a logic class in your college experience?
Christian Walker
Joystarr humiliated SlurpSlurp in message <36E109...@ll.wsbe.com>...
>
>You probably aren't capable of realizing it, but you are proving the
>point I make in #4 for me. Witness your utter lack of capitalization and
>your misspelling of the terms "out of", "experience", and "exceptions".
>Not to mention your complete failure to use anything resembling an
>apostrophe when appropriate.
While I don't agree with Joystarr's point of view, I do have to give him
some credit. The man can write well and he has taken Slurp to task on his
writing style. My posts are always defective in some manner, but I do try
to make the effort of pushing F7 to launch the spellcheck.
Next time, Slurp, don't give your adversary so much ammo by posting
something that is so easy to dismantle.
Conner
>AD&D, and that players of White Wolf games are generally more "mature"
>and "higher order" than players of AD&D (either version):
>
>1. Age level: While age and maturity are not identical, age certainly
>affects maturity. Most new players of AD&D are high school teenagers.
>As time goes on, some of these teens grow up and mature a bit, and get
>interested in the more mature White Wolf games after they enter college.
>
>start in college, it is clear that most WW gamers are more educated than
>most AD&D players. NOTE that this is only a generalization! While it
>would be foolish to claim that AD&D players do not enter college, it
>would be equally foolish to deny that most gamers do not get interested
>in the more mature White Wolf games until they are "ready".
>
>well as "Law" and "Chaos". White Wolf games (even the combat-oriented
>Werewolf) are presented upon a backdrop of moral relativism much more
>closely in tune with the real world. It is like an adolescent's "black
>and white" moral view compared to the more "grey" moral view of a mature,
>educated adult, with room for nuances of behavior, personality, and
>situation that the AD&D moral straightjacket and blinders simply do not
>allow for.
>
>were written by Gary Gygax for an "older" crowd, it is clear where the
>AD&D game has evolved (DEvolved?) to. Even considering Gygax's complex
>"purple prose", the typical White Wolf manual or handbook scores higher
>on any modern text editor when scanned for reading level (2nd Edition
>AD&D = 6th Grade level, 1st Edition AD&D = 10th Grade level, and White
>Wolf products = early college level).
>
>that Mommy and Daddy are shelling out the dough for TSR), AD&D artwork
>tends to be second-rate to third-rate because of the restriction of the
>artists who work for TSR. This is true of written work as well as visual
>art, but I am speaking primarily of visual artwork here. Because WW
>employs artists who are more free to forge ahead as the spirit moves
>them, they end up with higher-quality art. Consider that even AD&D
>"modern artistic legends" like DiTerlizzi got their creative starts with
>White Wolf.
>
>local artists to perform LARP games on a regular basis in most
>communities is the superior creativity, organization, and overall
>maturity levels of the White Wolf gamers. Remember that AD&D fans have
>tried unsuccessfully to set up their own LARP-type games for years, and
>have never been able to get past the "hack-'em-up" swords and male power
>fantasy stage.
>
>fo a variety of problems. First, the overall lower maturity level of
>(male) AD&D gamers really turns women off to the game. Women
>just do not want to drink beer, burp, fart, and talk about
>"titties" all night long. Secondly, women are generally superior to men
>in maturity, especially earlier in life. This means that they will
>automatically be attracted to the "higher-order" (maturity-wise) White
>Wolf games. And they are! Few White Wolf gaming groups have trouble
>finding female gamers, and a great number of WW groups have a 50% (or
>higher!) female gamer quotient.
>
>Wolf gamers I have spoken with, there is a much higher degree of
>multiculturalism at the gaming table in the average WW game when compared
>to the average AD&D game. This is probably for a variety of reasons,
>including the average overall higher level of education of White Wolf
>gamers. Remember, too, the lack of moral relativism in AD&D, which
>promotes separatist "black and white" moral reasoning, thereby subtly
>promoting feelings of cultural superiority and isolationism. My own
>gaming group consists of a Black male Storyteller, two White females, one
>White (Jewish) male, an Arabic male, and an Hispanic/Native American
>female.
>
>Wolf games allow players to more fully explore who they truly are, to get
>a better feel for their "true" inner "characters". While admittedly
>POSSIBLE in AD&D, this sort of transcendental experience is generally
>blocked by the excessive AD&D dwelling on combat and male power fantasy.
> Lacking a feminine, introspective element, AD&D is a malformed,
>underdeveloped vehicle for the sort of personal journeys possible under
>the inspiration of the superior Storyteller (as opposed to
>"hack-n'-slayer") system.
>
>mature and sophisticated, whether they admit it to themselves or not.
>This is evidenced by the fact that "straight" AD&D gamers and
>"straight" WW gamers, when mixed together, often have difficulties
>or "snobbish" attitudes (as the less developed people often do), while
>the WW people actually have no real beef with the AD&D people. They
>simply have nothing to say to them, having already found something more
>to their liking and grown weary of trying to convince the AD&D players
>to try something new, only to get shot down by the non-creative and
>immature.
>
>White Wolf players got their start with AD&D, and as such the gaming
>system should be treated with the respect it deserves. AD&D is typically
>an excellent vehicle for the indoctrination of youthful teens into the
>gaming community at large, and most WW gamers feel that their "AD&D
>Years" were an important part of their development. However, like
>anything else, there is a time when the superior must inevitably move on
>to higher-order challenges.
>
>the "mature" role-player, while the AD&D stage of roleplaying is an
>earlier, more "primitive" one, often necessary to pass through before one
>is truly seasoned for the challenge of the White Wolf games.
>
>If YOU have recently become "bored" or disappointed in your typical RPG,
>check out some of the wonderful White Wolf gaming products available at a
>gaming store near you!
>
>
>Joystarr
>
>"With what luck'st this wee soul gae dancing through the starlit night,
>but the luck that hast been laid 'een 'ere infant's first cry be drawn!"
WW games are hardly played exclusively by mature college students. I have
met more immature, tragi-goth, teenagers who play WW games than I care to
count.
And what exactly do you do for White Wolf, anyway? Surely you don't spout
such propaganda without a paycheck.
The true bottom line is that there is no role-playing system that can be
categorized by maturity level. All games can be and are played by players
of all ages, ethnicity, sex, and maturity level. AD&D is played by
pre-teens and midde-age folk alike, as are White Wolf games, and Shadowrun,
and Deadlands, and Cthulhu, etc. etc.
Not a single one of your "reasons" is any gauge of superiority between the
products you mention. Your post is mostly rubbish, ludicrous, and a
thinly-veiled invitation for flaming.
SIurpSlurp
>AD&D, and that players of White Wolf games are generally more "mature"
>and "higher order" than players of AD&D (either version):
>
here we go again
>1. Age level: While age and maturity are not identical, age certainly
>affects maturity. Most new players of AD&D are high school teenagers.
>As time goes on, some of these teens grow up and mature a bit, and get
>interested in the more mature White Wolf games after they enter college.
ok, outta all the people I know who play d&d and vampire, the ones who play
vampire tend to be the druggies. Now granted thats just my personal exspirence
with the game, there are always acceptions.
>2. Education level: Linked to #1, above. Since most players of WW games
>start in college, it is clear that most WW gamers are more educated than
>most AD&D players. NOTE that this is only a generalization! While it
>would be foolish to claim that AD&D players do not enter college, it
>would be equally foolish to deny that most gamers do not get interested
>in the more mature White Wolf games until they are "ready".
I know some "educated" people who are the most petty and imature people around.
but then again its my personal expirence.
>3. Moral Complexity: AD&D has strict definitions of "Good" and "Evil", as
>well as "Law" and "Chaos". White Wolf games (even the combat-oriented
>Werewolf) are presented upon a backdrop of moral relativism much more
>closely in tune with the real world. It is like an adolescent's "black
>and white" moral view compared to the more "grey" moral view of a mature,
>educated adult, with room for nuances of behavior, personality, and
>situation that the AD&D moral straightjacket and blinders simply do not
>allow for.
same thing, ones more defined than the other. big deal.
>4. Language Level: The standard AD&D rulebooks (2nd Edition) were written
>for high school (or younger) children. While the 1st Edition AD&D books
>were written by Gary Gygax for an "older" crowd, it is clear where the
>AD&D game has evolved (DEvolved?) to. Even considering Gygax's complex
>"purple prose", the typical White Wolf manual or handbook scores higher
>on any modern text editor when scanned for reading level (2nd Edition
>AD&D = 6th Grade level, 1st Edition AD&D = 10th Grade level, and White
>Wolf products = early college level).
hmmmm, so your saying we who play ad&d, or d&d arnt able to grasp the white
wolf games.
>5. Adult Artwork: AD&D is specifically designed to shield children from
>the harsh vagaries of the modern world. Because of this (and the fact
>that Mommy and Daddy are shelling out the dough for TSR), AD&D artwork
>tends to be second-rate to third-rate because of the restriction of the
>artists who work for TSR. This is true of written work as well as visual
>art, but I am speaking primarily of visual artwork here. Because WW
>employs artists who are more free to forge ahead as the spirit moves
>them, they end up with higher-quality art. Consider that even AD&D
>"modern artistic legends" like DiTerlizzi got their creative starts with
>White Wolf.
I dont remember much of the artwork in white wolfs materials since its been so
long since I have opened up one of thier books so I wont even argue with this.
>7. Female Interest: It is painfully clear to most honest AD&D players
>that very few females are interested in their hobby. This is the result
>fo a variety of problems. First, the overall lower maturity level of
>(male) AD&D gamers really turns women off to the game. Women
>just do not want to drink beer, burp, fart, and talk about
>"titties" all night long. Secondly, women are generally superior to men
>in maturity, especially earlier in life. This means that they will
>automatically be attracted to the "higher-order" (maturity-wise) White
>Wolf games. And they are! Few White Wolf gaming groups have trouble
>finding female gamers, and a great number of WW groups have a 50% (or
>higher!) female gamer quotient.
Ok, your saying the male asshole sterotype guys are all who play d&d. damn pull
your head outta your ass. As for supirior to men in maturity development I have
to agree there. But then saying that white wolf games are "higher
order(maturity wise)" maybe the game is but you definatly are not. And with
the gamer ratio of men to women, that is going to vary from area to area. here
in my town it ranges from 25-50% depending on the area. and they arnt white
wolf games either thier d&d.
>8. Ethnicity: In my experience, and the experience of many other White
>Wolf gamers I have spoken with, there is a much higher degree of
>multiculturalism at the gaming table in the average WW game when compared
>to the average AD&D game. This is probably for a variety of reasons,
>including the average overall higher level of education of White Wolf
>gamers. Remember, too, the lack of moral relativism in AD&D, which
>promotes separatist "black and white" moral reasoning, thereby subtly
>promoting feelings of cultural superiority and isolationism. My own
>gaming group consists of a Black male Storyteller, two White females, one
>White (Jewish) male, an Arabic male, and an Hispanic/Native American
>female.
Ok, thats your group.I can go back in my family history and point out white,
black, and american indian. Wow I covered half your group in my own heritage.
Most of the people I game with come from cross culteral backrounds.
>9. Psychoanalytic Potential: While not a staple of the genre, most White
>Wolf games allow players to more fully explore who they truly are, to get
>a better feel for their "true" inner "characters". While admittedly
>POSSIBLE in AD&D, this sort of transcendental experience is generally
>blocked by the excessive AD&D dwelling on combat and male power fantasy.
> Lacking a feminine, introspective element, AD&D is a malformed,
>underdeveloped vehicle for the sort of personal journeys possible under
>the inspiration of the superior Storyteller (as opposed to
>"hack-n'-slayer") system.
ok what you say is that its not possible to RolePlay with ad&d that its just
hack and slash, Have you even played ad&d? cause you keep sounding more and
more like an ignorant twit.
>10. Most AD&D players know that the Storyteller system is much more
>mature and sophisticated, whether they admit it to themselves or not.
>This is evidenced by the fact that "straight" AD&D gamers and
>"straight" WW gamers, when mixed together, often have difficulties
>interacting. The AD&D players often complain of the WW gamers' "pompous"
>or "snobbish" attitudes (as the less developed people often do), while
>the WW people actually have no real beef with the AD&D people. They
>simply have nothing to say to them, having already found something more
>to their liking and grown weary of trying to convince the AD&D players
>to try something new, only to get shot down by the non-creative and
>immature.
>
Ok you say that we think that ad&d players think white wolf players are pompous
and snobbish people when your acting like a snobbish pompous asshole. Why I
wonder why they might think that? people dont like you much do they cause your
"more developed", the only thing I can see you have developed into is some
worthless annoying shit. But then again its only my opion.
>Please note that I mean no offense to the average AD&D player here! Many
>White Wolf players got their start with AD&D, and as such the gaming
>system should be treated with the respect it deserves. AD&D is typically
>an excellent vehicle for the indoctrination of youthful teens into the
>gaming community at large, and most WW gamers feel that their "AD&D
>Years" were an important part of their development. However, like
>anything else, there is a time when the superior must inevitably move on
>to higher-order challenges.
No offense? You come here post why white wolf is better than d&d, then procede
to say that ad&d gamers are un-intellegent childish gamers and you think we
wont take offence?
>As you can see, the WW "Storyteller" system is plainly suited more for
>the "mature" role-player, while the AD&D stage of roleplaying is an
>earlier, more "primitive" one, often necessary to pass through before one
>is truly seasoned for the challenge of the White Wolf games.
>
I've played the white wolf system, if you want my opion since you stated yours
I think white wolf is the 2nd biggest crock of shit, you however have taken the
title as first biggest crock of shit. Congradulations on that. :)
>If YOU have recently become "bored" or disappointed in your typical RPG,
>check out some of the wonderful White Wolf gaming products available at a
>gaming store near you!
>
Damn, I got bored of white wolf when I played, guess that means I need to go
play d&d
>Good Night and Goddess Bless,
>
may the devil hoof you in the nads
Joystarr
> WW games are hardly played exclusively by mature college students. I have
> met more immature, tragi-goth, teenagers who play WW games than I care to
> count.
You are a player of AD&D, yes? This makes sense, then. You are just
beginning your gaming experience, and the WW players that you are meeting
are just beginning to come into the fold. They are not quite as mature
as the rest of us because they have less experience -- I wouldn't be
surprised if these people you have met are former (or even current)
AD&D players. We mustn't discourage them -- they can only improve with
an excellent system like Storyteller!
> And what exactly do you do for White Wolf, anyway? Surely you don't spout
> such propaganda without a paycheck.
(Smiles)
I am merely trying to enlighten!
Try not to take it the wrong way. Remember that I have already noted
that AD&D has a (valuable!) place in the gaming community. Attracting
new, younger gamers is important.
> The true bottom line is that there is no role-playing system that can be
> categorized by maturity level. All games can be and are played by players
> of all ages, ethnicity, sex, and maturity level.
True -- but there are TENDENCIES and TRENDS that cannot be ignored by any
but the foolish or willfully ignorant. Surely even you can see this.
> AD&D is played by
> pre-teens and midde-age folk alike, as are White Wolf games, and
> Shadowrun,
> and Deadlands, and Cthulhu, etc. etc.
White Wolf games may be played by children, but they are rarely
understood in their entirety by them. Children are quite capable of
grasping all that AD&D has to offer, however. You argument here is
vacuous. You might as well claim that "Candyland" and Chess are
equivalent in complexity and maturity level because children play both
games.
I think you are missing some objectivity here.
> Not a single one of your "reasons" is any gauge of superiority between
> the
> products you mention.
I knew some AD&D zealots would see things this way when I posted. Oh,
well. It was not to people like you that I was truly speaking; rather, I
was trying to enlightened those who were ready and prepared to move on to
the next level of gaming.
> Your post is mostly rubbish, ludicrous, and a
> thinly-veiled invitation for flaming.
LOL! In your last breath, you claimed that I was someone on WW's
payroll, and now I am a mere troll! You flaunt your ignorance.
Conner
>beginning your gaming experience, and the WW players that you are meeting
>are just beginning to come into the fold. They are not quite as mature
>as the rest of us because they have less experience -- I wouldn't be
>surprised if these people you have met are former (or even current)
>AD&D players. We mustn't discourage them -- they can only improve with
>an excellent system like Storyteller!
Just beginning my gaming experience? I've been playing RPGs for over 12
years, and AD&D is only one of the systems I've played. FYI, I've played
both 1st and 2nd edition Vampire in its table-top incarnation, and enjoyed
it immensely.
Your pretentious and condescending tone will win you no friends.
Your generic arguments that you use to propel your game of choice have no
bearing on the game itself. A true measure of a game lies in its underlying
mechanics. Without these mechanics, there is no reason to publish a
rulebook, is there.
Storyteller games present excellent role-playing atmosphere, and it was
designed in this capacity. But just as an inept Storyteller can quickly
turn the game into something dice and detail oriented, a good GM can turn
any game or setting into an involving role-playing experience, regardless of
the game's mechanics.
You accuse me of ignorance for stating the obvious. You are the ignorant
one if you don't expect a certain amount of backlash regarding your original
post.
Your categorization of RPGs by level of maturity is, in itself, ignorant.
I may as well say that the Amber role-playing system is the paragon of
gaming maturity because it doesn't rely on mere dice to tell the story, but
such a statement rings as hollow as your own.
There is nothing inherently mature or immature about game systems. Settings
and themes can be categorized this way, but these are not necessarily
dependent on the game itself.
Yehoota
<19990306013541...@ng-cf1.aol.com>...
>here we go again
C'mon, folks. We have signs posted all around the Freakshow. NO feeding
the trolls!!!
Even the little goth ones with the white faces and capes :-)
Anthony Toohey
Theryn of Nowhere
Still crazy, after all these years...
Joystarr
> >1. Age level: While age and maturity are not identical, age certainly
> >affects maturity. Most new players of AD&D are high school teenagers.
> >As time goes on, some of these teens grow up and mature a bit, and get
> >interested in the more mature White Wolf games after they enter college.
>
> ok, outta all the people I know who play d&d and vampire, the ones who play
> vampire tend to be the druggies. Now granted thats just my personal exspirence
> with the game, there are always acceptions.
Sigh...
You probably aren't capable of realizing it, but you are proving the
point I make in #4 for me. Witness your utter lack of capitalization and
your misspelling of the terms "out of", "experience", and "exceptions".
Not to mention your complete failure to use anything resembling an
apostrophe when appropriate.
"Druggies"? How quaint. I was talking about age level up there.
Evidently, you read my post sideways.
> I know some "educated" people who are the most petty and imature people
> around.
> but then again its my personal expirence.
"Educated", indeed. What, pray tell, is the threshold which one must
surpass in order for you to deem them "educated"? I expect an amusing
response.
In any event, I never stated that AD&D players were "imature". I don't
even know what THAT means. It isn't in MY dictionary.
> >4. Language Level: The standard AD&D rulebooks (2nd Edition) were written
> >for high school (or younger) children. While the 1st Edition AD&D books
> >were written by Gary Gygax for an "older" crowd, it is clear where the
> >AD&D game has evolved (DEvolved?) to. Even considering Gygax's complex
> >"purple prose", the typical White Wolf manual or handbook scores higher
> >on any modern text editor when scanned for reading level (2nd Edition
> >AD&D = 6th Grade level, 1st Edition AD&D = 10th Grade level, and White
> >Wolf products = early college level).
>
> hmmmm, so your saying we who play ad&d, or d&d arnt able to grasp the white
> wolf games.
"Hmm. So you're saying that those of us who play AD&D or D&D aren't able
to grasp the White Wolf games?"
I rest my case. Thanks for the help, and the continuing arguments in
favor of my point #4.
> Ok, your saying the male asshole sterotype guys are all who play d&d.
> damn pull
> your head outta your ass.
Ah, vulgarity. Why am I not surprised? I expected as much from an AD&D
gamer. Thank you for arguing my point for me.
> As for supirior to men in maturity development I have
> to agree there.
It's "superior". Damn, I spelled the word FOR you up there. Can't you
read?
> But then saying that white wolf games are "higher
> order(maturity wise)" maybe the game is but you definatly are not.
LOL! I'm so devastated that your perception of me as "definatly" not at
a higher level of maturity than the typical AD&D gamer!
> And with
> the gamer ratio of men to women, that is going to vary from area to
> area.
Of course it will. I'm looking at the big picture here, though. Perhaps
you haven't had the good fortune to travel as extensively as I have, but
then, few people are gifted with my priviliges. You would do well to
heed the observations of those more experiences than yourself.
> here
> in my town it ranges from 25-50% depending on the area. and they arnt white
> wolf games either thier d&d.
Yes, I'm sure in your little corner of the world, things may be different
from the world at large. Just try to remember that there is a great big
world out there that is much more varied than you can possibly begin to
imagine.
> >8. Ethnicity: In my experience, and the experience of many other White
> >Wolf gamers I have spoken with, there is a much higher degree of
> >multiculturalism at the gaming table in the average WW game when compared
> >to the average AD&D game. This is probably for a variety of reasons,
> >including the average overall higher level of education of White Wolf
> >gamers. Remember, too, the lack of moral relativism in AD&D, which
> >promotes separatist "black and white" moral reasoning, thereby subtly
> >promoting feelings of cultural superiority and isolationism. My own
> >gaming group consists of a Black male Storyteller, two White females, one
> >White (Jewish) male, an Arabic male, and an Hispanic/Native American
> >female.
>
> Ok, thats your group.I can go back in my family history and point out white,
> black, and american indian. Wow I covered half your group in my own heritage.
> Most of the people I game with come from cross culteral backrounds.
I grow weary of pointing out your spelling and grammar errors, so I shall
cease doing so. Just bear in mind that you argue my point for me more
and more as you persist in flaunting your poor typing skills to the
global community.
Once again, whatever little town you live in is not the world. It
may be YOUR little world, but it doesn't necessarily represent
reality for everyone else you share the planet with. That should be
patently obvious to even the most dull-witted of suburbanites (you know,
the ones who wring their hands and fret, "there goes the neighborhood"?).
> >9. Psychoanalytic Potential: While not a staple of the genre, most White
> >Wolf games allow players to more fully explore who they truly are, to get
> >a better feel for their "true" inner "characters". While admittedly
> >POSSIBLE in AD&D, this sort of transcendental experience is generally
> >blocked by the excessive AD&D dwelling on combat and male power fantasy.
> > Lacking a feminine, introspective element, AD&D is a malformed,
> >underdeveloped vehicle for the sort of personal journeys possible under
> >the inspiration of the superior Storyteller (as opposed to
> >"hack-n'-slayer") system.
>
> ok what you say is that its not possible to RolePlay with ad&d that its just
> hack and slash, Have you even played ad&d?
Of COURSE I've played AD&D. That, too, should be patently obvious.
And I am NOT speaking of mere "roleplaying" in the above paragraph. I am
speaking of transcendentalism, using roleplaying as a "vehicle" of sorts.
I could explain more, but you obviously haven't the vocabulary for it.
Read some Lacan, then come back and we'll talk (as if).
> cause you keep sounding more and
> more like an ignorant twit.
I can practically TASTE the irony in THAT statement.
> >10. Most AD&D players know that the Storyteller system is much more
> >mature and sophisticated, whether they admit it to themselves or not.
> >This is evidenced by the fact that "straight" AD&D gamers and
> >"straight" WW gamers, when mixed together, often have difficulties
> >interacting. The AD&D players often complain of the WW gamers' "pompous"
> >or "snobbish" attitudes (as the less developed people often do), while
> >the WW people actually have no real beef with the AD&D people. They
> >simply have nothing to say to them, having already found something more
> >to their liking and grown weary of trying to convince the AD&D players
> >to try something new, only to get shot down by the non-creative and
> >immature.
> >
>
> Ok you say that we think that ad&d players think white wolf players are
> pompous
> and snobbish people when your acting like a snobbish pompous asshole.
This is my point exactly. Why do AD&D players so quickly moved
to act in a DEFENSIVE manner regarding their hobby? Could it be that
they somehow know and recognize its frailties (possibly on a subconscious
level)? I think so.
White Wolf gamers, by contrast, are generally mature and self-confident
enough to realize that they needn't worry about whether or not the masses
can see them for what they are. They are already confident about what
they are, and in the inherent worth of that. They do not NEED the
acceptance of the majority in order to "feel good about themselves".
AD&D players, by contrast, are like small children who require constant
positive feedback from the world around them. Given even one iota of
criticism, they tend to squall and cry until given their reassuring
"security blankets".
> Why I
> wonder why they might think that?
Because the ignorant and the ignoble always resent their superiors.
There is nothing new about this -- it has been that way since the dawn of
time.
> people dont like you much do they cause your
> "more developed", the only thing I can see you have developed into is
> some
> worthless annoying shit.
When you get close to a complete sentence, bring it to my attention. I
won't even attempt to read that jumbled pile of grammatical nightmares.
> But then again its only my opion.
Oh, well, so long as it's only you "opion", I suppose I have nothing to
worry about. Except for this: what the Hell is an "opion"?
> >Please note that I mean no offense to the average AD&D player here! Many
> >White Wolf players got their start with AD&D, and as such the gaming
> >system should be treated with the respect it deserves. AD&D is typically
> >an excellent vehicle for the indoctrination of youthful teens into the
> >gaming community at large, and most WW gamers feel that their "AD&D
> >Years" were an important part of their development. However, like
> >anything else, there is a time when the superior must inevitably move on
> >to higher-order challenges.
>
> No offense? You come here post why white wolf is better than d&d, then procede
> to say that ad&d gamers are un-intellegent childish gamers and you think we
> wont take offence?
Are you a troll? You misspell every other word in this response and then
have the gall (abject stupidity?) to take umbrage at my calling you
"un-intellegent"? LOL!
Some people never develop beyond the AD&D stage of gaming. I bear them
no ill will, although I may sincerely pity them from time to time. There
is so much more to gaming that they are missing out on. Meanwhile, I try
to give the salvageable AD&D gamers information that may help them now,
or will help them when they finally decide to give up childish things.
> I've played the white wolf system, if you want my opion since you
> stated yours
> I think white wolf is the 2nd biggest crock of shit, you however have
> taken the
> title as first biggest crock of shit.
What an amusing sentence! Amusing for its ridiculous length, dirt-poor
grammar, and lowbrow attempts at "humor".
Not that I ever asked for your "opion", mind you.
By the way, another sign of a mature and educated mind is its having
grown beyond potty jokes.
> >If YOU have recently become "bored" or disappointed in your typical RPG,
> >check out some of the wonderful White Wolf gaming products available at a
> >gaming store near you!
> >
>
> Damn, I got bored of white wolf when I played, guess that means I need
> to go
> play d&d
Yes, you obviously wouldn't fit in with WW gamers any more than a common
laborer would fit in at a Yale luncheon for esteemed literary critics.
> may the devil hoof you in the nads
How... poetic.
Good Night and Goddess Bless,
Joystarr
Conner
>Of course it will. I'm looking at the big picture here, though. Perhaps
>you haven't had the good fortune to travel as extensively as I have, but
>then, few people are gifted with my priviliges. You would do well to
>heed the observations of those more experiences than yourself.
All role-playing preference aside, you are clearly a bore, Joystarr, and not
the sort of person I would have at my cocktail parties. What's more, you
are a snob. I hardly think extensive travelling is an appropriate
substitute for maturity, which, incidentally, seems to be something you lack
entirely. A truly mature person would not attempt to counter an argument by
pointing out grammatical errors -- indeed, the world is a large place, and
not all of its residents are native speakers of English.
You are not making arguments to support your preference of the Storyteller
system over the AD&D system. You are merely making gross generalizations
and assumptions. It is clear that you truly consider yourself a superior
intellect, but your logic is flawed, and in the end you are merely a tragic
human being who is starving for attention.
Your comments warrant no further wastes of my time.
Christian Walker
Christian Walker wrote in message <7bqn8s$g...@chronicle.concentric.net>...
>While I don't agree with Joystarr's point of view, I do have to give him
>some credit. The man can write well and he has taken Slurp to task on
his
>writing style. My posts are always defective in some manner, but I do
try
>to make the effort of pushing F7 to launch the spellcheck.
>
>
>Next time, Slurp, don't give your adversary so much ammo by posting
>something that is so easy to dismantle.
>
This is one of those posts that I really regret sending. Slurp, sorry for
coming across as an arrogant ass by critiquing your post.
The Archveult
go through anothers post making grammatical and spelling corrections and
then disregarding arguments on that basis? Certainly what I or anyone else
writes in a newsgroup post is not going to be as well checked as a school
essay or business report. And of course there is a matter of style. People
may not like that fact that I never use apostrophes but I really couldnt
care, it just feels better to me as I type. An unexplainable, personal
requirement of electronic expression. :)
As for the vulgarities, although I cannot say that I think they were
warranted, you raised their use in your posting this message to this
newsgroup. I have not read the FAQ in awhile, but arent messages like your
original post to be directed to an advocacy newsgroup? Feel free to correct
me.
>Yes, you obviously wouldn't fit in with WW gamers any more than a common
>laborer would fit in at a Yale luncheon for esteemed literary critics.
How base. Attack the argument, not the arguer. I laugh reading you
insulting another for making similar attacks on yourself and then turning
around and doing it back.
THE ARCHVEULT
Autolycus
>You probably aren't capable of realizing it, but you are proving the
>point I make in #4 for me. Witness your utter lack of capitalization and
>your misspelling of the terms "out of", "experience", and "exceptions".
>Not to mention your complete failure to use anything resembling an
>apostrophe when appropriate.
>
>"Druggies"? How quaint. I was talking about age level up there.
>Evidently, you read my post sideways.
I read your earlier posts and replies, as I do most, with amusement. I
found within me the slight excitement that someone would be attempting to
show some of the fine points of the various WW games. And then you got
arch and condescending, and I realised that while you might file AD&D
players under 'male, white, adolescent and foul-mouthed', you would surely
be digging a grave for yourself in a separate cemetery. Just as grave an
error...
A pity, that.
Actually, I really was hoping that you would be arguing, forcefully but
reasonably, the virtues of WW games in comparison with AD&D. I was hoping
that you would elaborate on your points with concrete examples instead of
limiting the bulk of your argument to comparisons based on your limited
acquaintance with humans. I hoped that such would be forthcoming.
Or at least, I hoped... until I realised you were probably an avatar of
Ron Poirier and I had just been trolled successfully.
*sigh*
Autolycus
Ian Hodges
Joystarr wrote:
> Sigh...
>
> You probably aren't capable of realizing it, but you are proving the
> point I make in #4 for me. Witness your utter lack of capitalization and
> your misspelling of the terms "out of", "experience", and "exceptions".
> Not to mention your complete failure to use anything resembling an
> apostrophe when appropriate.
You lack of attention is amusing. Instead of taking his points to heart, you instead
criticize his spelling. Sad...
> "Educated", indeed. What, pray tell, is the threshold which one must
> surpass in order for you to deem them "educated"? I expect an amusing
> response.
What is the threshold which they become un-educated. I expect an even more amusing
response.
> In any event, I never stated that AD&D players were "imature". I don't
> even know what THAT means. It isn't in MY dictionary.
Back to spelling? hmm...
> I rest my case. Thanks for the help, and the continuing arguments in
> favor of my point #4.
You still haven't proved ANY of my arguments wrong yet. So go to a White Wolf
message board, and try your over exaggerated thespian ways elsewhere.
Nothing else you wrote was worth commenting on.
Denakhan
;-)
Joystarr wrote in message <36E0ED...@ll.wsbe.com>...
>Here is my list of proof that Vampire: the Masquerade is superior to
>AD&D, and that players of White Wolf games are generally more "mature"
>and "higher order" than players of AD&D (either version):
>
>1. Age level: While age and maturity are not identical, age certainly
>affects maturity. Most new players of AD&D are high school teenagers.
>As time goes on, some of these teens grow up and mature a bit, and get
>interested in the more mature White Wolf games after they enter college.
Odd that you feel that way. Personally, Ive met about 15 or so V:tM
players, and *3* of them were actually mature. The rest were total teenager
'wackos'. The mature ones actually liked to (gasp!) *think* about the game
logic of V:tM (I mean, come on, are you trying to tell me, than in the
entier history of the world, *NO* big agency/government/group has ever
proved the existance of vampires? hehehe, yeah, and I'm a chinese jet
pilot!) Listening to the three exceptions (player wise), they had a good
time...the other dozen or so V:tM players just creeped me out and kept going
on and on about the inner turmoil there characters were suffering through
because they were going around killing anything that moved (all with a smile
on there fanged faces)...but "really felt bad about it". Hell, if a vampire
really didn't want to kill others, he should just walk out into the desert
and stake himself in the heart. Lots of humans commit suicide, I can't
believe a vampire would actually have a *harder* time "killing" himself.
>2. Education level: Linked to #1, above. Since most players of WW games
>start in college, it is clear that most WW gamers are more educated than
>most AD&D players. NOTE that this is only a generalization! While it
>would be foolish to claim that AD&D players do not enter college, it
>would be equally foolish to deny that most gamers do not get interested
>in the more mature White Wolf games until they are "ready".
Your statement partly rings true...for nowadays. When AD&D first came
out, it was virtually exclusive to mature college students and adults. Now,
with 2nd ed, I agree: the typical age a person learns AD&D 2nd is
pre-college. However, I would also say that most of the V:tM peopel I have
met are not in college (or even ever _been_ to college). I would say it is
closer to the opposite: with AD&D players being more educated than the V:tM
players.
>3. Moral Complexity: AD&D has strict definitions of "Good" and "Evil", as
>well as "Law" and "Chaos". White Wolf games (even the combat-oriented
>Werewolf) are presented upon a backdrop of moral relativism much more
>closely in tune with the real world. It is like an adolescent's "black
>and white" moral view compared to the more "grey" moral view of a mature,
>educated adult, with room for nuances of behavior, personality, and
>situation that the AD&D moral straightjacket and blinders simply do not
>allow for.
This is simply wrong. I could *VERY* easily say "Ok, folks, we are
going to use the AD&D alignment system for our next V:tM game." I could,
and it wouldn't "wreck" V:tM in any way, shape or form. Thus, the alignment
thing (your entier #3 point above, actually) is moot.
>4. Language Level: The standard AD&D rulebooks (2nd Edition) were written
>for high school (or younger) children. While the 1st Edition AD&D books
>were written by Gary Gygax for an "older" crowd, it is clear where the
>AD&D game has evolved (DEvolved?) to. Even considering Gygax's complex
>"purple prose", the typical White Wolf manual or handbook scores higher
>on any modern text editor when scanned for reading level (2nd Edition
>AD&D = 6th Grade level, 1st Edition AD&D = 10th Grade level, and White
>Wolf products = early college level).
I, again, partly agree with you...about the 2nd ed stuff. TSR has
stated that 2nd ed was geared/written for the taget audience of 12 to 16. H
owever, 1st ed was written for intelligent and mature players (mostly
putting this in the post secondary school level). As for V:tM, I have read
them (a good number). They are written in very basic words and sentances.
There is nothing in them that any grade 6'er couldn't read, or anything that
any grade 8'er couldn't understand. The rules (if you can call them that),
read more like a watered down version of the instructions for "Snakes and
Ladders". It attempts to be dramatic, cynical and mysterious, but, to me,
only succeeds in annoying the hell out of me. I would like to point out
that one of the reasons I don't really care for V:tM is because: A) I think
the system sucks, and B) vampires are evil. If you play one, you should be
evil. If you play one, you should realise that one day you *WILL* get
staked and there is _nothing_ you can do about it because you will be
asleep. V:tM doesn't ascribe to that version, however.
>5. Adult Artwork: AD&D is specifically designed to shield children from
>the harsh vagaries of the modern world. Because of this (and the fact
>that Mommy and Daddy are shelling out the dough for TSR), AD&D artwork
>tends to be second-rate to third-rate because of the restriction of the
>artists who work for TSR. This is true of written work as well as visual
>art, but I am speaking primarily of visual artwork here. Because WW
>employs artists who are more free to forge ahead as the spirit moves
>them, they end up with higher-quality art. Consider that even AD&D
>"modern artistic legends" like DiTerlizzi got their creative starts with
>White Wolf.
Heheheh. Sorry, I had to laugh at this one. "I don't like AD&D art, so
thus, WW games are better." Some great logic there, huh? ;-)
>6. LARP: The clear reason why WW has been able to successfully inspire
>local artists to perform LARP games on a regular basis in most
>communities is the superior creativity, organization, and overall
>maturity levels of the White Wolf gamers. Remember that AD&D fans have
>tried unsuccessfully to set up their own LARP-type games for years, and
>have never been able to get past the "hack-'em-up" swords and male power
>fantasy stage.
...I don't think I am even going to touch this one. V:tM
LARPERs....*shiver*....
>7. Female Interest: It is painfully clear to most honest AD&D players
>that very few females are interested in their hobby. This is the result
>fo a variety of problems. First, the overall lower maturity level of
>(male) AD&D gamers really turns women off to the game. Women
>just do not want to drink beer, burp, fart, and talk about
>"titties" all night long. Secondly, women are generally superior to men
>in maturity, especially earlier in life. This means that they will
>automatically be attracted to the "higher-order" (maturity-wise) White
>Wolf games. And they are! Few White Wolf gaming groups have trouble
>finding female gamers, and a great number of WW groups have a 50% (or
>higher!) female gamer quotient.
I have a 50%+ female quotient...and we play 1st ed AD&D or Basic D&D
mostly. I would say that a lot of females are drawn to V:tM because of its
"sexy-LaStadt-vampire" syndrom. Personally, I think that french kissing a
corps that has been dead for 150 years would be rather digusting... Not to
mention the smell. I mean, you are dead, right? Ahh well, fantasy is
fantasy I suppose.
>8. Ethnicity: In my experience, and the experience of many other White
>Wolf gamers I have spoken with, there is a much higher degree of
>multiculturalism at the gaming table in the average WW game when compared
>to the average AD&D game. This is probably for a variety of reasons,
>including the average overall higher level of education of White Wolf
>gamers. Remember, too, the lack of moral relativism in AD&D, which
>promotes separatist "black and white" moral reasoning, thereby subtly
>promoting feelings of cultural superiority and isolationism. My own
>gaming group consists of a Black male Storyteller, two White females, one
>White (Jewish) male, an Arabic male, and an Hispanic/Native American
>female.
All I have to say to this is: So what? White, black, indian....we are
all human and we all live on this planet. Who cares where you were born?
And, to relate it to RP'ing, I haven't seen this in any way shape or form.
Mind you, I live in a small city, so there isn't alot of "multiculturalism"
to begin with (not that anyone really cares).
>9. Psychoanalytic Potential: While not a staple of the genre, most White
>Wolf games allow players to more fully explore who they truly are, to get
>a better feel for their "true" inner "characters". While admittedly
>POSSIBLE in AD&D, this sort of transcendental experience is generally
>blocked by the excessive AD&D dwelling on combat and male power fantasy.
> Lacking a feminine, introspective element, AD&D is a malformed,
>underdeveloped vehicle for the sort of personal journeys possible under
>the inspiration of the superior Storyteller (as opposed to
>"hack-n'-slayer") system.
Now THIS scares me. Where is it written in *ANY* WW game that says
"When you play your character and the session is over, have the other
players psycho-analyse you. Explore your innermost feelings and thoughts.
This is the true reward for playing V:tM; learning about who you truly are
and getting in touch with who your true, inner character realy is." You
will fogive me if I think that if you believe this, you really are a true
V:tM player. (and no, I don't think this is a 'good' thing).
>10. Most AD&D players know that the Storyteller system is much more
>mature and sophisticated, whether they admit it to themselves or not.
>This is evidenced by the fact that "straight" AD&D gamers and
>"straight" WW gamers, when mixed together, often have difficulties
>interacting.
I would go so far as to say that *ANY* WW gamer has difficulties
interacting with anyone other than another WW player.
>The AD&D players often complain of the WW gamers' "pompous"
>or "snobbish" attitudes (as the less developed people often do), while
>the WW people actually have no real beef with the AD&D people. They
>simply have nothing to say to them, having already found something more
>to their liking and grown weary of trying to convince the AD&D players
>to try something new, only to get shot down by the non-creative and
>immature.
Uh, right. I guess my 20 years of RP'ing just isn't up to the so-called
"sophistication" of the beginning WW gamer. Please forgive me, oh
illustrious and far-superior-to-me V:tM player. A thousand pardons.
>Please note that I mean no offense to the average AD&D player here!
I guess this is why you posted this to rec.games.frp.dnd. Oh, wait, I
bet this is one of those times where my inferiority is making me ingorant to
the "true" meaning and reason for you posting here. Sorry.
>If YOU have recently become "bored" or disappointed in your typical RPG,
>check out some of the wonderful White Wolf gaming products available at a
>gaming store near you!
20 years and not bored yet...I must be doing something right...oh,
scratch that. I'm an imature moron because I think the WW system and games
suck. Sorry again.
>>Good Night and Goddess Bless,
>Joystarr
>"With what luck'st this wee soul gae dancing through the starlit night,
>but the luck that hast been laid 'een 'ere infant's first cry be drawn!"
...or, as Jack Burton would say "Its all in the reflexes."
PS: ANyone else reading this far down. Please go check out #vampires_loft
or #vampire_cafe on DALNet. After spending a half-hour in there...well, all
I can say is this: I rest my case.
^_^
Denakhan the Arch-Mage
The Archveult
>Here is my list of proof that Vampire: the Masquerade is superior to
>AD&D, and that players of White Wolf games are generally more "mature"
>and "higher order" than players of AD&D (either version):
You know, I could attack you on grammar here and rip your argument apart, as
you did in another post, but in accordance with my reply to that previous
post I will not be so low. (How can a game be more mature than a player? A
difficult comparison. Permit me that one observation. You have made more
errors further along but I leave their discovery as an exercise to you the
reader.) I may as well warn you now that I have no spell checker, and care
not for strict grammar. If you attack my arguments on those grounds Id like
you to review my earlier reply to another post before you do so. I should
also admit that I have not played V:TM but having played numerous RPGs over
many years (including some I hear are similar to V:TM I feel that I am in a
position to make some valid statements.
I will review your points and respond based on your two separate claims,
that (1) V:TM is superior to AD&D and that (2) WW gamers are generally more
mature and higher order than players of AD&D.
>1. Age level: While age and maturity are not identical, age certainly
>affects maturity. Most new players of AD&D are high school teenagers.
>As time goes on, some of these teens grow up and mature a bit, and get
>interested in the more mature White Wolf games after they enter college.
(1) This point has nothing to do with the games themselves, only the
players.
(2) I would guess that this is a valid point, that the average age of AD&D
gamers is younger than that of WW gamers.
>2. Education level: Linked to #1, above. Since most players of WW games
>start in college, it is clear that most WW gamers are more educated than
>most AD&D players. NOTE that this is only a generalization! While it
>would be foolish to claim that AD&D players do not enter college, it
>would be equally foolish to deny that most gamers do not get interested
>in the more mature White Wolf games until they are "ready".
(1) Again, this point has nothing to do with the games.
(2) This is definately linked to point 1 above, in fact it hinges on it. If
you were to actually consider the _relative_ educational level of the
players of the two games, you would probably find they are equivalent. AD&D
attracts the brightest minds (a published fact in studies I believe) partly
because of the statistical elements of the game. So if we restrict this
point to its stated purpose (educational level), then the players in either
game are equal.
>3. Moral Complexity: AD&D has strict definitions of "Good" and "Evil", as
>well as "Law" and "Chaos". White Wolf games (even the combat-oriented
>Werewolf) are presented upon a backdrop of moral relativism much more
>closely in tune with the real world. It is like an adolescent's "black
>and white" moral view compared to the more "grey" moral view of a mature,
>educated adult, with room for nuances of behavior, personality, and
>situation that the AD&D moral straightjacket and blinders simply do not
>allow for.
(1) In all the groups I have played with, the alignment system so strictly
defined in the DMG is laughed at. In my opinion a game is more than what is
written down. A game is what is written down and what is accepted by the
players. Therefore the alignment system in all the groups I have played
with did not function that way. I think the strict alignment system in the
rulebooks is a result of the attacks D&D has suffered over the years
regarding covert satanism and devil worship, and so on. Given that TSR had
to dispel the rumors and institute a strict, CLEARLY DEFINED moral system
and promote only the neutral and good alignments (which they do so in their
rulebooks). But as I said, who follows this system as it is written? So I
would say this is an invalid point.
(2) Does not apply.
>4. Language Level: The standard AD&D rulebooks (2nd Edition) were written
>for high school (or younger) children. While the 1st Edition AD&D books
>were written by Gary Gygax for an "older" crowd, it is clear where the
>AD&D game has evolved (DEvolved?) to. Even considering Gygax's complex
>"purple prose", the typical White Wolf manual or handbook scores higher
>on any modern text editor when scanned for reading level (2nd Edition
>AD&D = 6th Grade level, 1st Edition AD&D = 10th Grade level, and White
>Wolf products = early college level).
(1) And the lower the grade level of the text, the wider the audience that
can benefit from the material. In a rulebook where definition is required,
understandable text is a must. So on the game itself, this point has little
weight.
(2) As above, the language level is only that encountered in the rulebooks.
The language level of the game itself is another issue, and unfortunately an
unmeasurable one. We can draw generalizations from ages of the players, and
say that the language used by WW gamers will be more advanced, but then I
would fall back onto my previous argument that relative educational standing
be considered.
>5. Adult Artwork: AD&D is specifically designed to shield children from
>the harsh vagaries of the modern world. Because of this (and the fact
>that Mommy and Daddy are shelling out the dough for TSR), AD&D artwork
>tends to be second-rate to third-rate because of the restriction of the
>artists who work for TSR. This is true of written work as well as visual
>art, but I am speaking primarily of visual artwork here. Because WW
>employs artists who are more free to forge ahead as the spirit moves
>them, they end up with higher-quality art. Consider that even AD&D
>"modern artistic legends" like DiTerlizzi got their creative starts with
>White Wolf.
(1) Artwork? Never used it in my group. Rating an RPG based on its artwork
is not quite on target of the debate though, I would say.
(2) Does not apply.
>6. LARP: The clear reason why WW has been able to successfully inspire
>local artists to perform LARP games on a regular basis in most
>communities is the superior creativity, organization, and overall
>maturity levels of the White Wolf gamers. Remember that AD&D fans have
>tried unsuccessfully to set up their own LARP-type games for years, and
>have never been able to get past the "hack-'em-up" swords and male power
>fantasy stage.
(1) AD&D is a dice driven RPG meant to be played around a table, not a
LARPG. To bring AD&D to LARP would be to change the game. I dont think we
can really compare the two on this point.
(2) I cannot really draw anything out of that paragraph.
>7. Female Interest: It is painfully clear to most honest AD&D players
>that very few females are interested in their hobby. This is the result
>fo a variety of problems. First, the overall lower maturity level of
>(male) AD&D gamers really turns women off to the game. Women
>just do not want to drink beer, burp, fart, and talk about
>"titties" all night long. Secondly, women are generally superior to men
>in maturity, especially earlier in life. This means that they will
>automatically be attracted to the "higher-order" (maturity-wise) White
>Wolf games. And they are! Few White Wolf gaming groups have trouble
>finding female gamers, and a great number of WW groups have a 50% (or
>higher!) female gamer quotient.
(1) Does not apply.
(2) Again this is age relative.
>8. Ethnicity: In my experience, and the experience of many other White
>Wolf gamers I have spoken with, there is a much higher degree of
>multiculturalism at the gaming table in the average WW game when compared
>to the average AD&D game. This is probably for a variety of reasons,
>including the average overall higher level of education of White Wolf
>gamers. Remember, too, the lack of moral relativism in AD&D, which
>promotes separatist "black and white" moral reasoning, thereby subtly
>promoting feelings of cultural superiority and isolationism. My own
>gaming group consists of a Black male Storyteller, two White females, one
>White (Jewish) male, an Arabic male, and an Hispanic/Native American
>female.
(1) Does not apply.
(2) Does not apply. If it did, we would be claiming that certain
ethnicities were naturally more mature and higher order than others, and I
doubt anyone would believe that.
>9. Psychoanalytic Potential: While not a staple of the genre, most White
>Wolf games allow players to more fully explore who they truly are, to get
>a better feel for their "true" inner "characters". While admittedly
>POSSIBLE in AD&D, this sort of transcendental experience is generally
>blocked by the excessive AD&D dwelling on combat and male power fantasy.
> Lacking a feminine, introspective element, AD&D is a malformed,
>underdeveloped vehicle for the sort of personal journeys possible under
>the inspiration of the superior Storyteller (as opposed to
>"hack-n'-slayer") system.
(1) Depends on the players and what they bring to the game.
>10. Most AD&D players know that the Storyteller system is much more
>mature and sophisticated, whether they admit it to themselves or not.
>This is evidenced by the fact that "straight" AD&D gamers and
>"straight" WW gamers, when mixed together, often have difficulties
>interacting. The AD&D players often complain of the WW gamers' "pompous"
>or "snobbish" attitudes (as the less developed people often do), while
>the WW people actually have no real beef with the AD&D people. They
>simply have nothing to say to them, having already found something more
>to their liking and grown weary of trying to convince the AD&D players
>to try something new, only to get shot down by the non-creative and
>immature.
(1) Does not apply.
(2) I think I have already asked this, but I will ask it again: Shouldnt
your original post have gone into the advocacy group? If this is correct,
then either you have taken up a beef with AD&D players by posting such a
message to this group or you have been a little ignorant of newsgroup
policies. Oh and since I dont know the Storyteller system I guess I cant
know that it is more sophisticated and mature.
>Please note that I mean no offense to the average AD&D player here! Many
>White Wolf players got their start with AD&D, and as such the gaming
>system should be treated with the respect it deserves. AD&D is typically
>an excellent vehicle for the indoctrination of youthful teens into the
>gaming community at large, and most WW gamers feel that their "AD&D
>Years" were an important part of their development. However, like
>anything else, there is a time when the superior must inevitably move on
>to higher-order challenges.
As I said before, if this post should have gone to advocacy as I think, then
you HAVE meant offense.
>As you can see, the WW "Storyteller" system is plainly suited more for
>the "mature" role-player, while the AD&D stage of roleplaying is an
>earlier, more "primitive" one, often necessary to pass through before one
>is truly seasoned for the challenge of the White Wolf games.
To summarize:
You presented very very little to convince anyone that AD&D is a weaker
system than V:TM. Your arguments are lacking in making this claim. The
only point worth reading over was the one on alignment, but I made a
counterpoint to that which I think invalidates it. Therefore V:TM is not
superior to AD&D (by these presented arguments so far).
You did present some good arguments to show that WW gamers are more mature
and higher order than AD&D gamers. But pretty much all of them go back to
your first point regarding age. If the V:TM system near exclusively
attracts college and university level gamers and the AD&D system attracts
high schoolers, then this claim is certainly true. However I think
everything is age relative, and your generalization was too quickly made.
If all the university and college AD&D players were compared to the
university and college V:TM players, I believe you would find them of
comparable levels of maturity and intelligence.
What I write I do with an extreme headcold. I am sure I have made mistakes.
Go ahead and point them out but try to control the personal attacks I see
you making on others. Attack the arguments themselves.
>If YOU have recently become "bored" or disappointed in your typical RPG,
>check out some of the wonderful White Wolf gaming products available at a
>gaming store near you!
I really do wonder how you earn your living.
>Good Night and Goddess Bless,
And you. :)
BTW (for the record):
My group has been playing D&D and AD&D for a few years now. Although at
present there are no women in the group, there have been a few in the past.
All but one or two of us are working towards honors degrees in our various
fields of study. One of us upon leaving high school is almost finished his
university degree. We are of mixed races.
THE ARCHVEULT
Shalavar
Joystarr wrote in message:
>
>priviliges
>it is clear where the AD&D game has evolved to.
>heed the observations of those more experiences than
You claim SlurpSlurp can't spell and has bad grammar? Before criticizing
another's grammar and spelling, make sure your own is perfect. Rember the
tale of stones and glass houses.
-Shalavar
SIurpSlurp
sis's school) who have PHDs and spell worse than me.
Rich Thompson
Good grief.
On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Joystarr wrote:
> 1. Age level: While age and maturity are not identical, age certainly
> affects maturity. Most new players of AD&D are high school teenagers.
> As time goes on, some of these teens grow up and mature a bit, and get
> interested in the more mature White Wolf games after they enter college.
Ack. How many 35 to 50 year olds do you know who play white wolf games?
I'd argue that if what you're saying is true, WW is a stage that some go
through in college, like angst and wearing black.
> 3. Moral Complexity: AD&D has strict definitions of "Good" and "Evil", as
> well as "Law" and "Chaos". White Wolf games (even the combat-oriented
> Werewolf) are presented upon a backdrop of moral relativism much more
> closely in tune with the real world. It is like an adolescent's "black
> and white" moral view compared to the more "grey" moral view of a mature,
> educated adult, with room for nuances of behavior, personality, and
> situation that the AD&D moral straightjacket and blinders simply do not
> allow for.
People can play any alignment character they like. Whether moral
relativism is more closely in tune with the real world or not is still
very much debated. If anything, in my brief experience with White Wolf
games, there was a stronger push toward evilness than there is toward
goodness in D&D. Most of the people I know who are into White Wolf stuff
seem to enjoy the "oh, i'm so eeeeeeeeevil" schtick.
I'll also point out that the genre of high fantasy is *supposed to*
invovle a certain amount of heroism.
> 5. Adult Artwork: AD&D is specifically designed to shield children from
> the harsh vagaries of the modern world. Because of this (and the fact
> that Mommy and Daddy are shelling out the dough for TSR), AD&D artwork
> tends to be second-rate to third-rate because of the restriction of the
> artists who work for TSR. This is true of written work as well as visual
> art, but I am speaking primarily of visual artwork here. Because WW
> employs artists who are more free to forge ahead as the spirit moves
> them, they end up with higher-quality art. Consider that even AD&D
> "modern artistic legends" like DiTerlizzi got their creative starts with
> White Wolf.
This is debatable.
> 8. Ethnicity: In my experience, and the experience of many other White
> Wolf gamers I have spoken with, there is a much higher degree of
> multiculturalism at the gaming table in the average WW game when compared
> to the average AD&D game.
This is exactly the opposite of my experience.
> 9. Psychoanalytic Potential: While not a staple of the genre, most White
> Wolf games allow players to more fully explore who they truly are, to get
> a better feel for their "true" inner "characters". While admittedly
> POSSIBLE in AD&D, this sort of transcendental experience is generally
> blocked by the excessive AD&D dwelling on combat and male power fantasy.
> Lacking a feminine, introspective element, AD&D is a malformed,
> underdeveloped vehicle for the sort of personal journeys possible under
> the inspiration of the superior Storyteller (as opposed to
> "hack-n'-slayer") system.
Therapy.
Gaming.
Apples.
Pitchforks.
That and the fact that psychoanalysis is at best a quasi-scientific
pursuit, offering as much chance for self-knowledge as an occasional
perusal of one's horoscope.
> "straight" WW gamers, when mixed together, often have difficulties
> interacting. The AD&D players often complain of the WW gamers' "pompous"
> or "snobbish" attitudes (as the less developed people often do), while
> the WW people actually have no real beef with the AD&D people. They
> simply have nothing to say to them, having already found something more
> to their liking and grown weary of trying to convince the AD&D players
> to try something new, only to get shot down by the non-creative and
> immature.
It's exactly this type of elitist drivel that turns people off of some
WWers. Some people are labeled pompous or snobbish because *they are*. I
don't see how finding the condescencions of someone who is going through a
moral crisis most of us sort out early in adolescence tiresome is an
indication of inferiority.
> Years" were an important part of their development. However, like
> anything else, there is a time when the superior must inevitably move on
> to higher-order challenges.
So what the hell are you doing here? Is this some sort of regression
therapy for you?
Richard Thompson
Department of Psychology
McGill University
1205 Dr. Penfield Ave.
Montreal, Quebec
H3A 1B1
(514) 842-1231 x4286
"Be not afraid of life. Believe that life is worth living and your belief
will help create the fact."
-William James
gilmae
Joystarr <lbu...@ll.wsbe.com> wrote in message
news:36E0ED...@ll.wsbe.com...
>Here is my list of proof that Vampire: the Masquerade is superior to
>AD&D, and that players of White Wolf games are generally more "mature"
>and "higher order" than players of AD&D (either version):
>
<snip>
remember that when we kill this one, we have to apply fire or acid to him
g.
Rich Thompson
> SIurpSlurp wrote:
>
> > >1. Age level: While age and maturity are not identical, age certainly
> > >affects maturity. Most new players of AD&D are high school teenagers.
> > >As time goes on, some of these teens grow up and mature a bit, and get
> > >interested in the more mature White Wolf games after they enter college.
> >
> > ok, outta all the people I know who play d&d and vampire, the ones who play
> > vampire tend to be the druggies. Now granted thats just my personal exspirence
> > with the game, there are always acceptions.
>
> Sigh...
>
> You probably aren't capable of realizing it, but you are proving the
> point I make in #4 for me. Witness your utter lack of capitalization and
> your misspelling of the terms "out of", "experience", and "exceptions".
> Not to mention your complete failure to use anything resembling an
> apostrophe when appropriate.
Spelling and grammar flames?
That's certainly proof of superiority.
> > Ok, thats your group.I can go back in my family history and point out white,
> > black, and american indian. Wow I covered half your group in my own heritage.
> > Most of the people I game with come from cross culteral backrounds.
>
> I grow weary of pointing out your spelling and grammar errors, so I shall
> cease doing so. Just bear in mind that you argue my point for me more
> and more as you persist in flaunting your poor typing skills to the
> global community.
Yes, and typing skills are the absolute meter of human worth and
development.
> Once again, whatever little town you live in is not the world. It
> may be YOUR little world, but it doesn't necessarily represent
> reality for everyone else you share the planet with. That should be
> patently obvious to even the most dull-witted of suburbanites (you know,
> the ones who wring their hands and fret, "there goes the neighborhood"?).
Just how many towns have *you* lived in? Are you an immortal, travelling
all over the world?
> This is my point exactly. Why do AD&D players so quickly moved
> to act in a DEFENSIVE manner regarding their hobby? Could it be that
> they somehow know and recognize its frailties (possibly on a subconscious
> level)? I think so.
Just what the world needs. An amateur psychoanalyst.
> no ill will, although I may sincerely pity them from time to time. There
> is so much more to gaming that they are missing out on. Meanwhile, I try
> to give the salvageable AD&D gamers information that may help them now,
> or will help them when they finally decide to give up childish things.
You sound like some second-rate recruiter for the Solar Temple.
Sheesh.
You're no different than Pat Buchanan, just biased and ignorant and
falsely superior in a different way.
B Wood
(Joystarr) "You are a player of AD&D, yes? This makes sense, then.
You are just beginning your gaming experience, and the WW players that
you are meeting are just beginning to come into the fold. They are not
The Vampire makes an appeal to pathos. Do you look into its eyes?
<Save vs spells at -4>
...and beware of White WereTrolls harvesting gamers.
Cheers
Barry
Heregul
>the harsh vagaries of the modern world. Because of this (and the fact
>that Mommy and Daddy are shelling out the dough for TSR), AD&D artwork
>tends to be second-rate to third-rate because of the restriction of the
>artists who work for TSR. This is true of written work as well as visual
>art, but I am speaking primarily of visual artwork here. Because WW
>employs artists who are more free to forge ahead as the spirit moves
>them, they end up with higher-quality art. Consider that even AD&D
>"modern artistic legends" like DiTerlizzi got their creative starts with
>White Wolf.
I'd just like to say that DiTerlizzi illustrated at least the first two
years of the Planescape setting (for AD&D, no less), being almost the only
artist featured within it. The pictures in that involve what you would term
"demons" and "devils" and the landscapes of Hell and Heaven. I think you've
just had a bad experience with AD&D; you seem rather bitter, claiming that
it's a "kid's game." That's a bad generalization.
Heregul
--
"I stand alone without beliefs. The only truth I know is you."
"Sig files aren't supposed to make sense." - Me
Heregul's Planescape Page: http://home.worldnet.att.net/~heregul
For e-mail replies, remove the space from my name.
Zeleng
<lbu...@ll.wsbe.com> wrote the following:
>Here is my list of proof that Vampire: the Masquerade is superior to
>AD&D
Stop right there; this doesn't belong here. Go to
rec.games.frp.advocacy.
I smell a flame war coming...
--
Zeleng, Keeper of the Official RSPW Typo List
--
Now with 33% more sarcasm!
Glenn "Bif" Buettner
Christian Walker wrote:
> Joystarr humiliated SlurpSlurp in message <36E109...@ll.wsbe.com>...
>
> >
> >You probably aren't capable of realizing it, but you are proving the
> >point I make in #4 for me. Witness your utter lack of capitalization and
> >your misspelling of the terms "out of", "experience", and "exceptions".
> >Not to mention your complete failure to use anything resembling an
> >apostrophe when appropriate.
>
> While I don't agree with Joystarr's point of view, I do have to give him
> some credit. The man can write well and he has taken Slurp to task on his
> writing style. My posts are always defective in some manner, but I do try
> to make the effort of pushing F7 to launch the spellcheck.
>
> Next time, Slurp, don't give your adversary so much ammo by posting
> something that is so easy to dismantle.
Of course, one should never criticize another's grammar when they are going to
make mistakes as well. And, don't come back and try to find fault with my
little post here. I am not criticizing his grammar, only his hypocrisy.
Protowzrd
pole...<g>
-Shiv
"My race, was protoculturally devoid of everything, except the desire to fight.
We were developed as toys for our creators, the Robotech Masters. We are toys
of destruction." -Exedore
Walt Harris
> Here is my list of proof that Vampire: the Masquerade is superior to
> AD&D, and that players of White Wolf games are generally more "mature"
> and "higher order" than players of AD&D (either version):
Okay, let's see some statistics...
> 1. Age level: While age and maturity are not identical, age certainly
> affects maturity. Most new players of AD&D are high school teenagers.
> As time goes on, some of these teens grow up and mature a bit, and get
> interested in the more mature White Wolf games after they enter college.
No statistics... no surveys... no tangible proof...
I want to see your proof... when I was in High School, White Wolf wasn't in
print at all yet... so you can't really state this totally can you?
> 2. Education level: Linked to #1, above. Since most players of WW games
> start in college, it is clear that most WW gamers are more educated than
> most AD&D players. NOTE that this is only a generalization! While it
> would be foolish to claim that AD&D players do not enter college, it
> would be equally foolish to deny that most gamers do not get interested
> in the more mature White Wolf games until they are "ready".
So what you're saying is this:
If you can prove #1 then you can prove #2... hmmm... you can't really
base these together... for example, just because Joe A doesn't have a
college degree does NOT mean that Joe B (who does) is smarter or
more mature...
This is a BROAD generalization... too broad... by the way, are you a
broad? : >
> 3. Moral Complexity: AD&D has strict definitions of "Good" and "Evil", as
> well as "Law" and "Chaos". White Wolf games (even the combat-oriented
> Werewolf) are presented upon a backdrop of moral relativism much more
> closely in tune with the real world. It is like an adolescent's "black
> and white" moral view compared to the more "grey" moral view of a mature,
> educated adult, with room for nuances of behavior, personality, and
> situation that the AD&D moral straightjacket and blinders simply do not
> allow for.
Ah, wrong... this area still depends on the players and DM... IMC we don't
rely on the Alignments that much anyway... after all, if a person is 'LE' by
nature, he can't help but play the character that way anyway... this is the
same
in V:tM too...
But again, statistics... I want statistics and tangible proof...
> 4. Language Level: The standard AD&D rulebooks (2nd Edition) were written
> for high school (or younger) children. While the 1st Edition AD&D books
> were written by Gary Gygax for an "older" crowd, it is clear where the
> AD&D game has evolved (DEvolved?) to. Even considering Gygax's complex
> "purple prose", the typical White Wolf manual or handbook scores higher
> on any modern text editor when scanned for reading level (2nd Edition
> AD&D = 6th Grade level, 1st Edition AD&D = 10th Grade level, and White
> Wolf products = early college level).
As much as I hate to say this, you may be right to an extent... but realize,
this is partly
because the average reading level is lower. And TSR actually wants children
to play.
After all, this is their target audience now... the more kids play now, the
more will
play in the future...
> 5. Adult Artwork: AD&D is specifically designed to shield children from
> the harsh vagaries of the modern world. Because of this (and the fact
> that Mommy and Daddy are shelling out the dough for TSR), AD&D artwork
> tends to be second-rate to third-rate because of the restriction of the
> artists who work for TSR. This is true of written work as well as visual
> art, but I am speaking primarily of visual artwork here. Because WW
> employs artists who are more free to forge ahead as the spirit moves
> them, they end up with higher-quality art. Consider that even AD&D
> "modern artistic legends" like DiTerlizzi got their creative starts with
> White Wolf.
I don't understand what you mean by "higher-quality art"... To me, I'd
rather see
the artwork in most of the AD&D books and modules than that in V:tM or even
V:DA... Art is subjective to taste...
Excuse my taste here for a second... bite me ; >
> 6. LARP: The clear reason why WW has been able to successfully inspire
> local artists to perform LARP games on a regular basis in most
> communities is the superior creativity, organization, and overall
> maturity levels of the White Wolf gamers. Remember that AD&D fans have
> tried unsuccessfully to set up their own LARP-type games for years, and
> have never been able to get past the "hack-'em-up" swords and male power
> fantasy stage.
Huh? You have no clue what you're talking about... I've seen a few LARP
myself
based on D&D... but think about this... how are you going to simulate
swordplay?
How about styrofoam (sic) swords? Gee... that was hard... Let's see some
hard statistics!
> 7. Female Interest: It is painfully clear to most honest AD&D players
> that very few females are interested in their hobby. This is the result
> fo a variety of problems. First, the overall lower maturity level of
> (male) AD&D gamers really turns women off to the game. Women
> just do not want to drink beer, burp, fart, and talk about
> "titties" all night long. Secondly, women are generally superior to men
> in maturity, especially earlier in life. This means that they will
> automatically be attracted to the "higher-order" (maturity-wise) White
> Wolf games. And they are! Few White Wolf gaming groups have trouble
> finding female gamers, and a great number of WW groups have a 50% (or
> higher!) female gamer quotient.
First off, I can tell you one main reason why women prefer V:tM than AD&D...
Romance... Vampires are more "romantical" than AD&D... If you don't believe
me,
ask my wife... oh, gee... this isn't statistical either... let me see yours,
I'll show you
mine.
> 8. Ethnicity: In my experience, and the experience of many other White
> Wolf gamers I have spoken with, there is a much higher degree of
> multiculturalism at the gaming table in the average WW game when compared
> to the average AD&D game. This is probably for a variety of reasons,
> including the average overall higher level of education of White Wolf
> gamers. Remember, too, the lack of moral relativism in AD&D, which
> promotes separatist "black and white" moral reasoning, thereby subtly
> promoting feelings of cultural superiority and isolationism. My own
> gaming group consists of a Black male Storyteller, two White females, one
> White (Jewish) male, an Arabic male, and an Hispanic/Native American
> female.
You know, 'it's really BAD when you have to tell people what type of players
each of your partners are... I mean... if you really cared for the game, it
wouldn't
matter what race/sex/religion the players are... You prejudiced bigot...
But again... STATISTICS please... give me a study that PROVES it beyond a
SHADOW OF A DOUBT... You can't?
> 9. Psychoanalytic Potential: While not a staple of the genre, most White
> Wolf games allow players to more fully explore who they truly are, to get
> a better feel for their "true" inner "characters". While admittedly
> POSSIBLE in AD&D, this sort of transcendental experience is generally
> blocked by the excessive AD&D dwelling on combat and male power fantasy.
> Lacking a feminine, introspective element, AD&D is a malformed,
> underdeveloped vehicle for the sort of personal journeys possible under
> the inspiration of the superior Storyteller (as opposed to
> "hack-n'-slayer") system.
Well... doesn't this depend on the players and DM? Hmm? I thought so...
The games were designed for two different purposes... but one common goal.
FUN... I'm sorry, you're not looking for that...
> 10. Most AD&D players know that the Storyteller system is much more
> mature and sophisticated, whether they admit it to themselves or not.
> This is evidenced by the fact that "straight" AD&D gamers and
> "straight" WW gamers, when mixed together, often have difficulties
> interacting. The AD&D players often complain of the WW gamers' "pompous"
> or "snobbish" attitudes (as the less developed people often do), while
> the WW people actually have no real beef with the AD&D people. They
> simply have nothing to say to them, having already found something more
> to their liking and grown weary of trying to convince the AD&D players
> to try something new, only to get shot down by the non-creative and
> immature.
Ah huh... statistics?
> Please note that I mean no offense to the average AD&D player here! Many
> White Wolf players got their start with AD&D, and as such the gaming
> system should be treated with the respect it deserves. AD&D is typically
> an excellent vehicle for the indoctrination of youthful teens into the
> gaming community at large, and most WW gamers feel that their "AD&D
> Years" were an important part of their development. However, like
> anything else, there is a time when the superior must inevitably move on
> to higher-order challenges.
Oh yeah, no offense taken bonehead... I got your superior right here...
why does everyone have to say one is superior to the other? It's not a
contest...
get over it will you and grow up...
Look, I play AD&D... I have played V:tM, Werewolf, Ars Magica, and even
Mage...
They are good in some ways... yes... better than AD&D... but face it, AD&D
has it's
good points too... you shouldn't make broad generalities unless you have
facts, statistics,
and surveys to back you... otherwise, you're asking for flaming wars...
> As you can see, the WW "Storyteller" system is plainly suited more for
> the "mature" role-player, while the AD&D stage of roleplaying is an
> earlier, more "primitive" one, often necessary to pass through before one
> is truly seasoned for the challenge of the White Wolf games.
OK... explain this... I started in AD&D... went to Mage and Ars Magica...
came back to AD&D... went to V:tM, Werewolf... and now back to
AD&D... so I'm primative huh... okay... so what...
> If YOU have recently become "bored" or disappointed in your typical RPG,
> check out some of the wonderful White Wolf gaming products available at a
> gaming store near you!
All this for a crummy commercial????????? Hey guys, it looks like Joystarr
works for WhiteWolf!!!!!!!
> Good Night and Goddess Bless,
May she have mercy on your soul....
Chris Moran
Zeleng wrote:
>
> On that fateful day (Sat, 06 Mar 1999 00:56:02 -0800), Joystarr
> <lbu...@ll.wsbe.com> wrote the following:
>
> >Here is my list of proof that Vampire: the Masquerade is superior to
> >AD&D
>
> Stop right there; this doesn't belong here. Go to
> rec.games.frp.advocacy.
>
> I smell a flame war coming...
>
> --
> Zeleng, Keeper of the Official RSPW Typo List
> --
> Now with 33% more sarcasm!
The funny thing is that the crowd r.g.f.advocacy tends to frown on
statements to the effect of "my type of play is better than yours".
Specific systems are rarely the focus... styles of play are.
krysta...@my-dejanews.com
> > Sigh...
> >
> > You probably aren't capable of realizing it, but you are proving the
> > point I make in #4 for me. Witness your utter lack of capitalization and
> > your misspelling of the terms "out of", "experience", and "exceptions".
> > Not to mention your complete failure to use anything resembling an
> > apostrophe when appropriate.
Huked on fonix werked fer mi.
> >
> > I grow weary of pointing out your spelling and grammar errors, so I shall
> > cease doing so. Just bear in mind that you argue my point for me more
> > and more as you persist in flaunting your poor typing skills to the
> > global community.
You don't grow weary of it... if you did, you'd probably have stopped
already. I actually think you get off on it. I can see it now... little
billy with phone cord, and laptop sitting on the toilette waxing the dolphin
while reading these posts...with sexually abused sister banging on the door
claiming she has to go pee.
> > Once again, whatever little town you live in is not the world. It
> > may be YOUR little world, but it doesn't necessarily represent
> > reality for everyone else you share the planet with. That should be
> > patently obvious to even the most dull-witted of suburbanites (you know,
> > the ones who wring their hands and fret, "there goes the neighborhood"?).
>
I'd imagine, being a child/pet molester such as yourself, you'd have to move
often from town to town, place to place, playground to playground. You'd get
a lot of different game groups that way. I'm just wondering if you introduce
V:tM in your group therapy sessions. That "there goes the neighborhood" hand
wringing is usually what YOU experience when unpacking that old trunk full of
nude Jim Carey photos, and animal mutilation/fetish devices.
> > This is my point exactly. Why do AD&D players so quickly moved
> > to act in a DEFENSIVE manner regarding their hobby? Could it be that
> > they somehow know and recognize its frailties (possibly on a subconscious
> > level)? I think so.
>
Well, of course, because we don't have fangs like you do.
> > no ill will, although I may sincerely pity them from time to time. There
> > is so much more to gaming that they are missing out on. Meanwhile, I try
> > to give the salvageable AD&D gamers information that may help them now,
> > or will help them when they finally decide to give up childish things.
>
Well, I've had Jehova's Witnesses stop by my house from time to time as well,
but when I come to the door with a motley crue shirt and a hangover, they
usually leave. Which means you rank even lower on the slime chart than they
do. In case you haven't noticed, most people on this NG don't want to be
"saved."
Perhapse, you're too busy scoping out your local sheepfarm for new prospects
to realize this though.
"And angels shall weep crimson tea..... oh fuck it, that sounds too gothic
for this thread."
On a lighter note, I hope this post is all the inspiration you need for you
to drag yourself out of that dark, depression induced hole, wipe the face
paint off, and successfully remove yourself from any presence of a gene pool.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Walt Harris
> SIurpSlurp wrote:
>
> > >1. Age level: While age and maturity are not identical, age certainly
> > >affects maturity. Most new players of AD&D are high school teenagers.
> > >As time goes on, some of these teens grow up and mature a bit, and get
> > >interested in the more mature White Wolf games after they enter college.
> >
> > ok, outta all the people I know who play d&d and vampire, the ones who play
> > vampire tend to be the druggies. Now granted thats just my personal exspirence
> > with the game, there are always acceptions.
>
> Sigh...
>
> You probably aren't capable of realizing it, but you are proving the
> point I make in #4 for me. Witness your utter lack of capitalization and
> your misspelling of the terms "out of", "experience", and "exceptions".
> Not to mention your complete failure to use anything resembling an
> apostrophe when appropriate.
>
> "Druggies"? How quaint. I was talking about age level up there.
> Evidently, you read my post sideways.
You know, for some "enlightened", you put a lot of people off with your
attitude... By the way, I'd have to agree with him. Most of the people I've
played ANY RPG with have been clean average Joe's... But, when I look
around at the "class" of people playing V:tM in my experience, I'd have to
say they are the ones that dress in black, pierce tongues, etc... and they
almost always seem to be high... Now if your Goddess says this is fine,
then do what ye will, but harm/preach to no one. You have caused harm here,
whether you know it or not... and it will come back to ye threefold...
> > I know some "educated" people who are the most petty and imature people
> > around.
> > but then again its my personal expirence.
>
> "Educated", indeed. What, pray tell, is the threshold which one must
> surpass in order for you to deem them "educated"? I expect an amusing
> response.
>
> In any event, I never stated that AD&D players were "imature". I don't
> even know what THAT means. It isn't in MY dictionary.
Refer to your first post...
> > >4. Language Level: The standard AD&D rulebooks (2nd Edition) were written
> > >for high school (or younger) children. While the 1st Edition AD&D books
> > >were written by Gary Gygax for an "older" crowd, it is clear where the
> > >AD&D game has evolved (DEvolved?) to. Even considering Gygax's complex
> > >"purple prose", the typical White Wolf manual or handbook scores higher
> > >on any modern text editor when scanned for reading level (2nd Edition
> > >AD&D = 6th Grade level, 1st Edition AD&D = 10th Grade level, and White
> > >Wolf products = early college level).
> >
> > hmmmm, so your saying we who play ad&d, or d&d arnt able to grasp the white
> > wolf games.
>
> "Hmm. So you're saying that those of us who play AD&D or D&D aren't able
> to grasp the White Wolf games?"
>
> I rest my case. Thanks for the help, and the continuing arguments in
> favor of my point #4.
No offense meant... but are you an idiot? I mean, think about this... I have a lot
of
friends/coworkers that can't spell or speak/write proper English... but that is NO
reason to chastise them. And your statement did state that as a possible comment on
your part... But you're too "enlightened" for that.
> > >Please note that I mean no offense to the average AD&D player here! Many
> > >White Wolf players got their start with AD&D, and as such the gaming
> > >system should be treated with the respect it deserves. AD&D is typically
> > >an excellent vehicle for the indoctrination of youthful teens into the
> > >gaming community at large, and most WW gamers feel that their "AD&D
> > >Years" were an important part of their development. However, like
> > >anything else, there is a time when the superior must inevitably move on
> > >to higher-order challenges.
> >
> > No offense? You come here post why white wolf is better than d&d, then procede
> > to say that ad&d gamers are un-intellegent childish gamers and you think we
> > wont take offence?
>
> Are you a troll? You misspell every other word in this response and then
> have the gall (abject stupidity?) to take umbrage at my calling you
> "un-intellegent"? LOL!
Intelligence and spelling are two distinct things... and they are not directly
correlated...
By the way... welcome to my KillFile... You are only my second addition to it
ever...
And before you start ranting... I've been on the Internet for about 15 years now...
I have a BS degree in Computer Science, and AAS in Electrical Engineering,
and a BS in Laser Technology... and I've been playing AD&D for over 12 years...
Don't argue intelligence, you'll lose.
> Some people never develop beyond the AD&D stage of gaming. I bear them
> no ill will, although I may sincerely pity them from time to time. There
> is so much more to gaming that they are missing out on. Meanwhile, I try
> to give the salvageable AD&D gamers information that may help them now,
> or will help them when they finally decide to give up childish things.
>
> > I've played the white wolf system, if you want my opion since you
> > stated yours
> > I think white wolf is the 2nd biggest crock of shit, you however have
> > taken the
> > title as first biggest crock of shit.
Bravo... well put... I don't necessarilly agree about the part with the White Wolf
System... but the otehr part is dead on...
oops... I spelled other wrong... I must be stupid!
> Good Night and Goddess Bless,
Again, may the Goddess have mercy on your soul!!!!!
I command the four spirits to take your rotting carcass away from this NG!
Walt Harris
> By the way... welcome to my KillFile... You are only my second addition to it
> ever...
> And before you start ranting... I've been on the Internet for about 15 years now...
> I have a BS degree in Computer Science, and AAS in Electrical Engineering,
> and a BS in Laser Technology... and I've been playing AD&D for over 12 years...
>
> Don't argue intelligence, you'll lose.
If you don't know what a KillFile is, let me explain...
It's a message filter that allows me to never read another message by you again...
The only way I'll EVER see anything by you again, is quoted text in another's
message
Chris Campbell
some extent Vampire and Mage as well) I found this post somewhat, well,
embarassing. People like Joystarr are to White Wolf games what foul-smelling,
overweight, chauvinistic assholes are to AD&D -- an embarassment to the game,
and totally unrepresentative of the bulk of the community (IME, at least).
Individuals like these tend to be an unfortunate subculture of the V:tM
popultation; thankfully, the developers and majority of players don't fall
into the same pathetic mindset.
To Joystarr: ask yourself why many of the people involved in the development
of these games themselves play with many other systems, particularly AD&D.
These are people who are mature enough to avoid limiting themselves to a
particular setting and mindset, a level you have apparently as of yet been
unable to reach. The maturity you speak of comes when you no longer feel the
need to assert the superiority of your system or methods over those of others,
and are instead interested more in mood and roleplaying than such trivial
things as mechanics and art.
--
Oh my God! They've killed Kosh! You bastards!
Chris Campbell Sank...@ix.netcom.com
Balor
@ Conner wrote:
@ > And what exactly do you do for White Wolf, anyway? Surely you don't spout
@ > such propaganda without a paycheck.
@
@ (Smiles)
@
@ I am merely trying to enlighten!
@
@ Try not to take it the wrong way. Remember that I have already noted
@ that AD&D has a (valuable!) place in the gaming community. Attracting
@ new, younger gamers is important.
I get it. You're just trying to generate heat against White Wolfers.
Go find another role to play, seriously.
The actual White Wolf players (like me), don't appreciate this.
Balor
bash of one system or the other.
In article <36E0ED...@ll.wsbe.com>, Joystarr <lbu...@ll.wsbe.com> wrote:
@ Here is my list of proof that Vampire: the Masquerade is superior to
@ AD&D, and that players of White Wolf games are generally more "mature"
@ and "higher order" than players of AD&D (either version):
Proof? Hardly. You have provided absolutely no data to back your claim up.
Morever, "maturity" and "higher order"-ness are a matter of opinion, not a
matter of fact, and while opinions can be backed up statistically and
evidentially, that doesn't make them concrete.
@ 1. Age level: While age and maturity are not identical, age certainly
@ affects maturity. Most new players of AD&D are high school teenagers.
@ As time goes on, some of these teens grow up and mature a bit, and get
@ interested in the more mature White Wolf games after they enter college.
Um... maybe. There aren't any demographics to back this up. (If you have
them, then provide them... as someone who does statistics for a living, my
feathers ruffle at the mention of relationships that are generalizations
rather than inferences, especially when they are given as "proof")
I will say that IME, online and offline, the players I see playing WW games
seem to be a little older in years than the players I see playing AD&D. I
would not say they are more mature.
@ 2. Education level: Linked to #1, above. Since most players of WW games
@ start in college, it is clear that most WW gamers are more educated than
@ most AD&D players. NOTE that this is only a generalization! While it
@ would be foolish to claim that AD&D players do not enter college, it
@ would be equally foolish to deny that most gamers do not get interested
@ in the more mature White Wolf games until they are "ready".
Well, yes... if they're above 18 they're more likely to be in college.
However, what is this generalization of yours based on?
Your offline experience with LARPs and tabletops? College people LARP because
their parents aren't there to say "no, you can't go to campus wearing that."
Your online experience? Well, come on... the majority of people on the net is
either in college or a college graduate... we can afford to pay for access, or
our university provides us access. All you can say about that is that you
encounter more WW-based sites and MU*s than AD&D (which I'm not sure is
entirely true... there are a hell of a lot of AD&D MUDs, along with folks on
various online tabletop sites [like WebRPG]).
And again, you have no data to back this up. It's only an "in my experience"
lecture.
@ 3. Moral Complexity: AD&D has strict definitions of "Good" and "Evil", as
@ well as "Law" and "Chaos". White Wolf games (even the combat-oriented
@ Werewolf) are presented upon a backdrop of moral relativism much more
@ closely in tune with the real world. It is like an adolescent's "black
@ and white" moral view compared to the more "grey" moral view of a mature,
@ educated adult, with room for nuances of behavior, personality, and
@ situation that the AD&D moral straightjacket and blinders simply do not
@ allow for.
Um... moral complexity is up to the gamemaster and game players. Whether your
Lawful Good is a pidgeon hole or is really played out is not a matter of the
system. I've seen an awful lot of pidgeon-holed Brujah, Get of Fenris, Black
Furies, and Sabbat, for example.
Game books do not morality make. It's the people playing them. White Wolf
simply has more variables in its alignment/behavior system (a Humanity/Rage,
Willpower, Nature, Demeanor, and Virtue/Auspice matrix instead of a
Order/Morality matrix), but it still has one... whether it promotes more
"greyness" or not is a matter of interpretation, pure and simple, and is based
solely on the people who play it, not the little "this is a world... a world
of darnkess" passages.
@ 4. Language Level: The standard AD&D rulebooks (2nd Edition) were written
@ for high school (or younger) children. While the 1st Edition AD&D books
@ were written by Gary Gygax for an "older" crowd, it is clear where the
@ AD&D game has evolved (DEvolved?) to. Even considering Gygax's complex
@ "purple prose", the typical White Wolf manual or handbook scores higher
@ on any modern text editor when scanned for reading level (2nd Edition
@ AD&D = 6th Grade level, 1st Edition AD&D = 10th Grade level, and White
@ Wolf products = early college level).
Yes, the words "fuck," "shit," and "asshole," along with descriptions of
incest, necrophilia, and murder (and that's just CB: Giovanni) are a higher
order of communication.
Frankly, while Gygax was a pretty writer, he sometimes made things more
incomprehensable than pretty. Several rules (there was a very good example a
few months ago, but I can't remember the title of the post or the author) he
wrote that took up long, winding paragraphs could be summed up with far more
clarity and usefulness in just a few words. Instead, you sometimes had to
risk an aneurism trying to figure out what the man really said.
White Wolf and modern AD&D texts are far clearer in their writing style. I
will admit that the writing style of White Wolf is more refined (despite some
authors' enjoyment of the word "fuck"), but that's partially because it's
written with a different purpose (setting) than AD&D's (rules).
Judging by the rulebooks as a whole, due to the setting-specific information
in White Wolf, yes, White Wolf has more aesthetically pleasing writing.
However, go to the rules section when you're comparing them... as that's what
AD&Ds PG and DMG really are... just rules sections... no stories or setting
information. AD&D setting information is in a campaign book, not in the core
rule books. The setting books for AD&D are a bit more aesthetically pleasing
than the core rule books... again, different purpose.
@ 5. Adult Artwork: AD&D is specifically designed to shield children from
@ the harsh vagaries of the modern world. Because of this (and the fact
@ that Mommy and Daddy are shelling out the dough for TSR), AD&D artwork
@ tends to be second-rate to third-rate because of the restriction of the
@ artists who work for TSR. This is true of written work as well as visual
@ art, but I am speaking primarily of visual artwork here. Because WW
@ employs artists who are more free to forge ahead as the spirit moves
@ them, they end up with higher-quality art. Consider that even AD&D
@ "modern artistic legends" like DiTerlizzi got their creative starts with
@ White Wolf.
Ohh, look... titties, corpses, blood, and Vampires... must be trying to tell
us the harsh vagaries of the modern world... you know how everywhere you
look all over the modern world it's titties, corpses, blood, and Vampires...
rather than platemail and dragons.
Yes, far less shielding to reality.
Brom and Elmore, while not as "realistic" as Tim Bradstreet, are fine
artists... as opposed to Vince Locke who is STILL USING THAT SAME WOMAN IN
EVERY DAMN PIECE OF ART HE DOES.
@ 6. LARP: The clear reason why WW has been able to successfully inspire
@ local artists to perform LARP games on a regular basis in most
@ communities is the superior creativity, organization, and overall
@ maturity levels of the White Wolf gamers. Remember that AD&D fans have
@ tried unsuccessfully to set up their own LARP-type games for years, and
@ have never been able to get past the "hack-'em-up" swords and male power
@ fantasy stage.
Bullshit. Sorry... but I've seen LARPs that are far more infantile and "male
power fantasy" than any tabletop game I've ever participated in. Granted,
there ARE mature WW LARPs, but there are also the LARPs with those morons who
put on makeup, sunglasses, and trenchcoats and proceed to accost strangers
saying "bleh, bleh, bleh I'm a Vampire! I'm a Vampire!" And then there are
the LARPs that are frankly no more than "hey, you like Vampire too? Cool...
let's go have sex..." (I know, because I met my wife at one of those ;) )
@ 7. Female Interest: It is painfully clear to most honest AD&D players
@ that very few females are interested in their hobby. This is the result
@ fo a variety of problems. First, the overall lower maturity level of
@ (male) AD&D gamers really turns women off to the game. Women
@ just do not want to drink beer, burp, fart, and talk about
@ "titties" all night long. Secondly, women are generally superior to men
@ in maturity, especially earlier in life. This means that they will
@ automatically be attracted to the "higher-order" (maturity-wise) White
@ Wolf games. And they are! Few White Wolf gaming groups have trouble
@ finding female gamers, and a great number of WW groups have a 50% (or
@ higher!) female gamer quotient.
The reason, IME... and only IME, women tend to like it (or so they said) is
because Vampire tends to be played as a more story driven and sensual of a
roleplaying game than AD&D. That other women are sometimes there is also
appealing. (Again, this is how I met my wife... through WW gaming.) Many
WW games are not run with the same statistical bent that AD&D is (that's not
to say they can't be... or that AD&D can't be story driven)... that appeals to
women. It's not that they can't wrap their heads around the statistics. They
just seem to think that numbers on a sheet are boring as hell and want to get
to the story and sensuality of it. "Shut up and roll the friggin dice"
doesn't go over well with them. (That's why Gygax doesn't like women ;) ;) )
@ 8. Ethnicity: In my experience, and the experience of many other White
@ Wolf gamers I have spoken with, there is a much higher degree of
@ multiculturalism at the gaming table in the average WW game when compared
@ to the average AD&D game. This is probably for a variety of reasons,
@ including the average overall higher level of education of White Wolf
@ gamers. Remember, too, the lack of moral relativism in AD&D, which
@ promotes separatist "black and white" moral reasoning, thereby subtly
@ promoting feelings of cultural superiority and isolationism. My own
@ gaming group consists of a Black male Storyteller, two White females, one
@ White (Jewish) male, an Arabic male, and an Hispanic/Native American
@ female.
I have a far more multicultural gaming experience as well, but that may be a
more of my background (I'm half Scot-Dutch, half Vietnamese... and a lot of
fun at parties)... that goes for most games.
However, I would advise that you not equate the morality system in AD&D with
separatist prejudice in reality. That draws the wrong kind of conclusion for
those who jump to them... (i.e. that you're saying AD&D gamers are white
suprematists)
@ 9. Psychoanalytic Potential: While not a staple of the genre, most White
@ Wolf games allow players to more fully explore who they truly are, to get
@ a better feel for their "true" inner "characters". While admittedly
@ POSSIBLE in AD&D, this sort of transcendental experience is generally
@ blocked by the excessive AD&D dwelling on combat and male power fantasy.
@ Lacking a feminine, introspective element, AD&D is a malformed,
@ underdeveloped vehicle for the sort of personal journeys possible under
@ the inspiration of the superior Storyteller (as opposed to
@ "hack-n'-slayer") system.
Again, this entirely depends on your group. I've encountered many Vampire and
Werewolf games that were as character-exploring as DOOM, and I've encountered
AD&D plots that make the Manchurian Candidate look like it was thought up by
nimrods.
@ 10. Most AD&D players know that the Storyteller system is much more
@ mature and sophisticated, whether they admit it to themselves or not.
@ This is evidenced by the fact that "straight" AD&D gamers and
@ "straight" WW gamers, when mixed together, often have difficulties
@ interacting. The AD&D players often complain of the WW gamers' "pompous"
@ or "snobbish" attitudes (as the less developed people often do), while
@ the WW people actually have no real beef with the AD&D people. They
@ simply have nothing to say to them, having already found something more
@ to their liking and grown weary of trying to convince the AD&D players
@ to try something new, only to get shot down by the non-creative and
@ immature.
You write this, saying "as the less developed people often do," and wonder WHY
people call some WW players "pompus" and "snobbish?" You just spent over 100
lines telling the group about how base their game was compared to the great,
enlightened Storyteller system. Who is the immature one here?
@ Please note that I mean no offense to the average AD&D player here! Many
@ White Wolf players got their start with AD&D, and as such the gaming
@ system should be treated with the respect it deserves. AD&D is typically
@ an excellent vehicle for the indoctrination of youthful teens into the
@ gaming community at large, and most WW gamers feel that their "AD&D
@ Years" were an important part of their development. However, like
@ anything else, there is a time when the superior must inevitably move on
@ to higher-order challenges.
The hell you don't. You just came in and called AD&Ders immature and
unsophisticated, making inferences based solely on your experience (limited
or vast, I don't know). Moreover, you present your "proof" in a seriously
biased and prejudiced manner. A well-written troll is still a troll.
Zimri
<9J9E2.26577$Hn5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
"mature"
>>
>
>
>remember that when we kill this one, we have to apply fire or acid to
him
Do we have to wait 'til it's dead?
-- Z
ROHAN118
I really need to jump in here. I can't resist. I own both games, but for all
of D&D's flaws, I just can't enjoy the White Wolf system. You left off one
trait: Game Mechanics! V:tM has stats going from only 1 to 5!!! Now, I
understand that this is supposed to emphasize role-playing over numbers, but
it's not much fun when everyone in the gaming group has almost the same stats.
I much prefer D&D's flexibility compared to WW's straightjacket.
Rohan
Balor
@ SIurpSlurp wrote:
@ "Educated", indeed. What, pray tell, is the threshold which one must
@ surpass in order for you to deem them "educated"? I expect an amusing
@ response.
Here is my amusing response, Dr. Crane.
Find a new role to play. You aren't fooling anyone.
The feint and riposte is still the same old cross, even if you try to fence
with a rapier wit, and point out how those who respond are mainly gauche.
This game of point, counter-point grows tiresome, as you have simply struck my
bell, and now, with a "touche'," I bid a fair adieu: there are people who are
far better at this than you.
But, as I am an AD&D gamer as well, I shall deliver unto you the argot:
Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.
Joystarr
> remember that when we kill this one, we have to apply fire or acid to
> him
I'm sorry, but this could only be taken as a personal threat. Your ISP
has been notified, and legal action against them will ensue if they do
not revoke your account immediately.
Good Night and Goddess Bless,
Joystarr
Joystarr
>
> Joystarr humiliated SlurpSlurp in message <36E109...@ll.wsbe.com>...
>
> >
> >point I make in #4 for me. Witness your utter lack of capitalization and
> >your misspelling of the terms "out of", "experience", and "exceptions".
> >Not to mention your complete failure to use anything resembling an
> >apostrophe when appropriate.
>
> some credit. The man can write well and he has taken Slurp to task on his
> writing style. My posts are always defective in some manner, but I do try
> to make the effort of pushing F7 to launch the spellcheck.
>
> Next time, Slurp, don't give your adversary so much ammo by posting
> something that is so easy to dismantle.
Thank you for the civility, Chris. You may be ready for White Wolf now.
I would certainly vouch for you in my gaming circle. Consider it.
Joystarr
> All role-playing preference aside, you are clearly a bore, Joystarr, and not
> the sort of person I would have at my cocktail parties.
(Amused)
As if I'd attend. You probably don't even know who Versace IS.
> What's more, you
> are a snob. I hardly think extensive travelling is an appropriate
> substitute for maturity, which, incidentally, seems to be something you lack
> entirely. A truly mature person would not attempt to counter an argument by
> pointing out grammatical errors -- indeed, the world is a large place, and
> not all of its residents are native speakers of English.
"Siurpslurp" (or whatever its name is) was not posting in any language
I'VE ever heard of. Perhaps a few more years of ESL would do him good.
SarahSidhe
Methinks I smell a Mock-Troll:
Gawd, you guys are such suckers! Now I want the guy behind this one to come
forward and confess. Ron? Terry?
~SarahAnne~
"Never run from anything Immortal, it only attracts their attention" - The Last
Unicorn
Joystarr
>
> Joystarr wrote in message <36E0ED...@ll.wsbe.com>...
> You know, I could attack you on grammar here and rip your argument
> apart, as
> you did in another post, but in accordance with my reply to that
> previous
> post I will not be so low. (How can a game be more mature than a
> player? A
> difficult comparison. Permit me that one observation. You have made
> more
> errors further along but I leave their discovery as an exercise to you
> the
> reader.) I may as well warn you now that I have no spell checker, and
> care
> not for strict grammar. If you attack my arguments on those grounds Id
> like
> you to review my earlier reply to another post before you do so. I
> should
> also admit that I have not played V:TM but having played numerous RPGs
> over
> many years (including some I hear are similar to V:TM I feel that I am
> in a
> position to make some valid statements.
Oh, Archie. You are trying to bait me with this botch-riddled paragraph
of yours, aren't you? You naughty little monkey. Very well -- I can
overlook your sloppily-placed "teasers" here. I don't feel like biting
today. In any event, your writing is at least clear here, unlike that
"Slurp" fellow.
(You see, your "clever" plan to entrap me had no chance from the
beginning. You are not dealing with one of your amateur AD&D peers
here.)
> I will review your points and respond based on your two separate claims,
> that (1) V:TM is superior to AD&D and that (2) WW gamers are generally more
> mature and higher order than players of AD&D.
(Snip)
I am not going to reply to your individual arguments, because they are
all inherently flawed. First, you assume that your dichotomic "attack"
on my argument will impress me somehow, when all you do is write:
1. Does not apply
2. Does not apply
As if that in any way detracts from my points! You aren't fooling anyone
with your non-argument, you know. Not anyone who matters, anyway.
> To summarize:
> You did present some good arguments to show that WW gamers are more
> mature
> and higher order than AD&D gamers.
This was part of my plan.
> But pretty much all of them go back to
> your first point regarding age. If the V:TM system near exclusively
> attracts college and university level gamers and the AD&D system
> attracts
> high schoolers, then this claim is certainly true.
So you are in agreement with me, then? Why did you bother typing your
vacuous disagreements, then?
> However I think
> everything is age relative, and your generalization was too quickly
> made.
Your meaning here is obtuse and nebulous.
> If all the university and college AD&D players were compared to the
> university and college V:TM players, I believe you would find them of
> comparable levels of maturity and intelligence.
My point, which you conveniently sweep under the carpet, was that a
greater percentage of WW gamers were educated. To attempt to refute it
by claiming that educated members of both gaming groups are equally
educated is... Well, ridiculous. This should be patently obvious.
> What I write I do with an extreme headcold. I am sure I have made mistakes.
> Go ahead and point them out but try to control the personal attacks I see
> you making on others. Attack the arguments themselves.
???
WHAT arguments?
> BTW (for the record):
> My group has been playing D&D and AD&D for a few years now. Although at
> present there are no women in the group, there have been a few in the past.
TENDENCIES is what I was arguing. Thank you for supporting my opinion.
Joystarr
>
> Joystarr wrote in message:
> >
> >priviliges
A typo. Clearly, we are all capable of making these minor errors.
> >it is clear where the AD&D game has evolved to.
Problem?
> >heed the observations of those more experienced than
Problem?
> >Because the ignorant and the ignoble always resent their superiors.
Problem?
> >Oh, well, so long as it's only you "opion"
Again -- a typo. I obviously know how to spell "your". "Siurpslurp"
demonstrated his complete ignorance by spelling "opion" several times
within the same post. He actually believes that that is the proper
spelling.
> >AD&D, and as such the gaming system should
Problem?
> You claim SlurpSlurp can't spell and has bad grammar? Before criticizing
> another's grammar and spelling, make sure your own is perfect. Rember the
> tale of stones and glass houses.
You can't even pick up REAL errors in my post, so you invent them? How
base.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Common people do common things,
after all.
Joystarr
> I can see it now... little
> billy with phone cord, and laptop sitting on the toilette waxing the dolphin
> while reading these posts...with sexually abused sister banging on the door
> claiming she has to go pee.
> I'd imagine, being a child/pet molester such as yourself, you'd have to move
> often from town to town, place to place, playground to playground.
> That "there goes the neighborhood" hand
> wringing is usually what YOU experience when unpacking that old trunk full of
> nude Jim Carey photos, and animal mutilation/fetish devices.
> Perhapse, you're too busy scoping out your local sheepfarm for new prospects
> to realize this though.
MORE proof that common people do common things. I suppose one can expect
no better from the Unrisen.
Note that I will *not* killfile this churlish cur. I shall instead
continue to read his infantile posts, hoping for signs of developing
maturity.
I expect to be disappointed, though.
Joystarr
> I'd just like to say that DiTerlizzi illustrated at least the first two
> years of the Planescape setting (for AD&D, no less), being almost the only
> artist featured within it. The pictures in that involve what you would term
> "demons" and "devils" and the landscapes of Hell and Heaven.
Planescape is the pinnacle to which AD&D can rise. IME, players of
Planescape are often well on their way towards readiness for White Wolf.
If you are experienced with Planescape, perhaps you are ready to take
the next step.
DiTerlizzi did the artwork for the Werewolf comic book introduction long
before Planescape arrived on the scene. His work in that product is
superior to anything seen in Planescape, partly for the reasons I
outlined in my original post.
In any event, the presence of DiTerlizzi's work in the Planescape books
is a clear indication of the superiority of that setting to other AD&D
settings (with Ravenloft a close second, IMO).
Norma
> "Siurpslurp" (or whatever its name is) was not posting in any language
> I'VE ever heard of. Perhaps a few more years of ESL would do him good.
Mr. Joystarr,
It seems you ended a sentence with a preposition.
-----Norma
SirAyastar
to post trolls. Yep, that's maturity for ya.
BTW I'll conceed that the rule books are much better pieces of
literature. Of course I buy game books to play a game not read a book.
"Nobody ever said anything worth Quoting" --Anonymous
Return my address to it's undiluted capitalist state from it's present
misguided state, go ahead the computer says you should and the
computer is your friend.............Right?
OGUR BOY
> Actually, I really was hoping that you would be arguing, forcefully but
> reasonably, the virtues of WW games in comparison with AD&D. I was hoping
> that you would elaborate on your points with concrete examples instead of
> limiting the bulk of your argument to comparisons based on your limited
> acquaintance with humans. I hoped that such would be forthcoming.
>
> Or at least, I hoped... until I realised you were probably an avatar of
> Ron Poirier and I had just been trolled successfully.
*OGUR BOY* *SMASSHSH* DUM VAMPIYER GYE!!! TROW ROKKS ON HEDD ANDND
*BASSHSH* STOOPID KOFFEN IN TOO *BITTY* *BITTS*!!!
*OGUR* MORR *STROGG* THEN DUM VAMPIYER EVEN THO VAMPIYER THINKK HIM
*STROGG* HE ONLEE MORR *STROGG* THEN DUM WEEK UMAN!!! HARG HARG HARG!!!
*OGURS* AWLEES *DETSTROY* DUM VAMPIYERS WHEN FITE IN SUNN!!! DUM
VAMPIYUERS WHAT SUK *BLUDD* ANDND MELTT IN TOO *ASHIZ* WEN HIT BYE
SUNN!!! VAMPIYTUER MORE WEEKER THEN LITE!!! IS TOO *STOOPID*!!!
HARG HARG HARG!!!
*OGUR BOY*
OGUR BOY
>
> gilmae wrote:
>
> > remember that when we kill this one, we have to apply fire or acid to
> > him
>
> I'm sorry, but this could only be taken as a personal threat. Your ISP
> has been notified, and legal action against them will ensue if they do
> not revoke your account immediately.
I THE *OGUR BOY* GIV YU PERSNUL THRET!!! I *BASHSHSES* YU IN HEDD WIT
*OGUR KLULB*!!!
THEN WUTT YU DO DUM VAMPIYR??? *WHUTT* *YU* *GONNA* *DOO*??!?!?
HARG HARG HARG!!!
> Good Night and Goddess Bless,
GOOD NITE IS RITE FORR YU DUM VAMMPUR!!! CUZ THEN YU GOTS *BUTSTID UP*
KOFFEN OF *SHASSMED* BYE *OGUR KLUBB*!!!
> Joystarr
>
> "With what luck'st this wee soul gae dancing through the starlit night,
> but the luck that hast been laid 'een 'ere infant's first cry be
> drawn!"
WHUTT THE HECK LANGWIGE IS THISS? DUM ELFF POMES?!?
*OGUR BOY*
OGUR BOY
> Your meaning here is obtuse and nebulous.
WHUTT?!? YU KALL ME FATT?!?? NOW YOU IN *BIGG* *TRUBBLE* DUM VAMPYUR
GYE!!!
> My point, which you conveniently sweep under the carpet,
OWNLEE SWEEP UNDUR CARPET IS BE *YOU* WEN ALL LEFT IS *ASHURS* FROMM DUM
VAMIPER WHEN HITS BY SUNN LITE AFTER *OGUR KLULBB* *SHASSHASHSISS* DUM
VAMPUYER KOFFUN!!!
> "With what luck'st this wee soul gae dancing through the starlit night,
> but the luck that hast been laid 'een 'ere infant's first cry be
> drawn!"
YORR DUM ELFIE POMES NOT SAYVE YU FROMM *OGUR* *KOMBATT*!!!
*OGUR BOY*
Joystarr
> Okay, let's see some statistics...
> I want to see your proof...
> But again, statistics... I want statistics and tangible proof...
> How about styrofoam (sic) swords? Gee... that was hard... Let's see
> some
> hard statistics!
> ask my wife... oh, gee... this isn't statistical either... let me see
> yours,
> I'll show you
> mine.
> But again... STATISTICS please... give me a study that PROVES it beyond
> a
> SHADOW OF A DOUBT... You can't?
> Ah huh... statistics?
> you shouldn't make broad generalities unless you have
> facts, statistics,
> and surveys to back you... otherwise, you're asking for flaming wars...
You flaunt your outdated adherence to the logocentric ideals of the past.
Postmodernism killed this stuff, and you had better keep up with the
times or your worldview will suck you into the oblivion it is
currently swirling into.
> All this for a crummy commercial????????? Hey guys, it looks like > Joystarr
> works for WhiteWolf!!!!!!!
No, no... I am operating out of a desire to serve and enlighten, as I
said before. The fact that the Unreachable will throw their own excretia
at me like the baboons they are only serves to strengthed my argument
that I do what I do out of sheer benevolence to those who are Ready.
B Wood
> Of course it will. I'm looking at the big picture here, though. Perhaps
> you haven't had the good fortune to travel as extensively as I have, but
> then, few people are gifted with my priviliges. You would do well to
> heed the observations of those more experiences than yourself.
Profile: Joystarr.
Intelligent but without the subtlety and grace marked by experience.
Probably a young adult, age 17-21. "Good fortune to travel extensively" ?
Likely a military brat. No outside life. Obsessed with the game, White
Wolf/Gothic fad defines his entire self-image. Overwhelming need to
compare himself to others coupled with a false sense of sophistication;
indicative of low self-esteem. Prose and writing style possess traits
typical to females; a bisexual male? Perhaps a closet homosexual. Its
daddy didn't send it an airline ticket home for Spring Break, so it
chooses instead to vent its insecurities over the dead week by posting
an obnoxious troll to a frp newsgroup. It desperately needs attention
from *someone*. Needs justification of its own self-worth.
How sad. How pathetic. Please seek professional help. Slicing up your
wrists in a public forum is so...uncivilized.
Cheers
Barry
Barry Smith
> Its the possibility of having to play with people like you that would keep
> me from buying any WW product.
Very well said Christian! Isn't there a WW newsgroup somewhere for this
guy to post his propaganda to in stead of wasting all our time? If not,
well, that would explain the popularity and "superiority" of WW... ;)
Oh man, that guy makes me want to puke. The self-love and vanity he
emotes is revolting. *shakes head in abject disbelief*
Barry Smith
>
> My turn! My turn! I wanna feed the troll too!
>
> ;-)
LOL!
> Uh, right. I guess my 20 years of RP'ing just isn't up to the so-called
> "sophistication" of the beginning WW gamer. Please forgive me, oh
> illustrious and far-superior-to-me V:tM player. A thousand pardons.
>
> >Please note that I mean no offense to the average AD&D player here!
>
> I guess this is why you posted this to rec.games.frp.dnd. Oh, wait, I
> bet this is one of those times where my inferiority is making me ingorant to
> the "true" meaning and reason for you posting here. Sorry.
ROFL! Great reverb Denakhan! LOL!
> >If YOU have recently become "bored" or disappointed in your typical RPG,
> >check out some of the wonderful White Wolf gaming products available at a
> >gaming store near you!
>
> 20 years and not bored yet...I must be doing something right...oh,
> scratch that. I'm an imature moron because I think the WW system and games
> suck. Sorry again.
Yeah, experience doesn't count for anything. <sarcasm> I have 18 years
of AD&D under my belt and so far...*switch*....nothing's wrong with
me.... ;)
Barry Smith
>
> gilmae wrote in message
> <9J9E2.26577$Hn5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
> >
> >Joystarr <lbu...@ll.wsbe.com> wrote in message
> >news:36E0ED...@ll.wsbe.com...
> >>Here is my list of proof that Vampire: the Masquerade is superior to
> "mature"
> >>and "higher order" than players of AD&D (either version):
> >>
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >remember that when we kill this one, we have to apply fire or acid to
> him
>
Nah, just cast Acid Storm followed by Fireball and break out the
marshmellows... ;)
Christian Walker
Balor wrote in message <7brnik$24...@enews2.newsguy.com>...
>I get it. You're just trying to generate heat against White Wolfers.
>
>Go find another role to play, seriously.
>
>The actual White Wolf players (like me), don't appreciate this.
Good point, Balor. How is coming to this group and flaming our game going
to generate interest in WW? I was recently asked by a Vampire
Storyteller to play in her game. I'm new to that system and despite the
stigma generated by people like Joystarr, I think I'll check it out.
However, I could just have easily gone the other direction, fearing that
the game would be populated by arrogant fops like Joy.
Remove the 'nospam' to reply via e-mail
********************************************
Talking in character? Here's something in
character, "Bite Me!!"
- Bitter Stevil from Knights of the Dinner Table #28
*******************************************
gaming fun at http://users.deltanet.com/~antissa
Christian Walker
Glenn \ Bif" Buettner > wrote in message
<7brg6t$3...@newsops.execpc.com>...
>Of course, one should never criticize another's grammar when they are
going to
>make mistakes as well. And, don't come back and try to find fault with
my
>little post here. I am not criticizing his grammar, only his hypocrisy.
>
I sent a note apologizing to ol' Slurp about my lame ass post. I try to
be as civil as possible on this group, but I think I suffered a
rectal-cranial inversion for a few seconds last night. My post was one of
those that I regretted as soon as I hit the send key.
Christian Walker
OGUR BOY wrote in message <36E1AA...@THE.CAVE>...
>*OGURS* AWLEES *DETSTROY* DUM VAMPIYERS WHEN FITE IN SUNN!!! DUM
>VAMPIYUERS WHAT SUK *BLUDD* ANDND MELTT IN TOO *ASHIZ* WEN HIT BYE
>SUNN!!! VAMPIYTUER MORE WEEKER THEN LITE!!! IS TOO *STOOPID*!!!
>HARG HARG HARG!!!
>
Christian pats Ogur on the head and gives him a Scooby snack for his
brave and daring attempt to rid the group of a nasty Vampire Troll.
Chris Moran
Joystarr wrote:
>
> Christian Walker wrote:
> >
> > Joystarr humiliated SlurpSlurp in message <36E109...@ll.wsbe.com>...
> >
> > >
> > >You probably aren't capable of realizing it, but you are proving the
> > >point I make in #4 for me. Witness your utter lack of capitalization and
> > >your misspelling of the terms "out of", "experience", and "exceptions".
> > >Not to mention your complete failure to use anything resembling an
> > >apostrophe when appropriate.
> >
> > While I don't agree with Joystarr's point of view, I do have to give him
> > some credit. The man can write well and he has taken Slurp to task on his
> > writing style. My posts are always defective in some manner, but I do try
> > to make the effort of pushing F7 to launch the spellcheck.
> >
> > Next time, Slurp, don't give your adversary so much ammo by posting
> > something that is so easy to dismantle.
>
> Thank you for the civility, Chris. You may be ready for White Wolf now.
> I would certainly vouch for you in my gaming circle. Consider it.
>
> Good Night and Goddess Bless,
>
> Joystarr
>
> "With what luck'st this wee soul gae dancing through the starlit night,
> but the luck that hast been laid 'een 'ere infant's first cry be drawn!"
It's time for a refresher course in Usenet tactics. Please do NOT feed
the trolls! They thrive on animosity. Joystarr is clearly here to get
a rise out of us. His/her snobbery is so flagrant it has to be faked...
a deliberate attempt to get us angry.
Gary Astleford
> @ I am merely trying to enlighten!
> @
> @ Try not to take it the wrong way. Remember that I have already noted
> @ that AD&D has a (valuable!) place in the gaming community. Attracting
> @ new, younger gamers is important.
>
> I get it. You're just trying to generate heat against White Wolfers.
>
> Go find another role to play, seriously.
>
> The actual White Wolf players (like me), don't appreciate this.
I, for one, agree with Balor. I play WW, and I play AD&D. I have a
good time with both of them. Yonder rogue is merely playing on the
newsgroup's emotions with empty arguments and childish tit-for-tatting.
Those of us who play White Wolf's games don't feel like this. It's a
stereotype he's trying to enforce, and a lot of people are being
entrapped by it.
The question of the century, then, is :
Why in the hell has this thread lasted this long?
Werebat
> The question of the century, then, is :
> Why in the hell has this thread lasted this long?
I believe the sage, Terry Austin, may be able to shed some light on that
one!
- Ron ^*^
Werebat
> It's time for a refresher course in Usenet tactics. Please do NOT feed
> the trolls! They thrive on animosity. Joystarr is clearly here to get
> a rise out of us. His/her snobbery is so flagrant it has to be
> faked...
> a deliberate attempt to get us angry.
I agree with Chris. This is a textbook case of trolling if I ever saw
one. Notice that "Joystarr" has not posted anything to any other
newsgroup before his pungent spewage last evening.
Clearly a forged account.
- Ron ^*^
VLeung
wrote:
[snip]
>
>Of course it will. I'm looking at the big picture here, though. Perhaps
>you haven't had the good fortune to travel as extensively as I have, but
>then, few people are gifted with my priviliges. You would do well to
>heed the observations of those more experiences than yourself.
>
yourself", right?
[snip]
>This is my point exactly. Why do AD&D players so quickly moved
>to act in a DEFENSIVE manner regarding their hobby?
Your intended question was likely : "Why _ARE_ AD&D players so quickly
moved to act in a DEFENSIVE manner...", n'est-ce pas?
[snip]
>Yes, you obviously wouldn't fit in with WW gamers any more than a common
>laborer would fit in at a Yale luncheon for esteemed literary critics.
"Laborer". Interesting...you used the American version of the word.
I do feel obligated to harp upon a caveat that is inherent in this
international medium: there are people out there for which the acronym
ESL applies (English as a Second Language). Criticism about "grammar
errors" (grammatical errors?), while not invalid, is often off-topic
and viewed as an attempt to "weasel out" of an argument through
irrelevant technicalities (I refer you to the Socratic dialogues as
penned by Plato, especially the argument about power involving
Thrasymachus).
I have personally tried both systems (perhaps in their entirety but
how many people out there use the Armour Type vs. Weapon Type
modifiers in their games?). I believe that the fun found in gaming
relies far more on the players than it does the system. It's quite
possible to hack-and-slack in both (ex. I could create a 1st-level
fighter with a THAC0 of 11 (elven fighter with 18/00 Strength, +1 to
hit w/ long & short swords, Weapon of Choice: long sword, Bladesong
from CBoE, specialization, and the Elven Knight kit from the Evermeet
supplement); I could also create a Brujah character who puts a chunk
of his beginning points in Celerity and Potence, putting as many
points as I can in Melee, putting the majority of my Attribute points
in the physical ones, and pumping up Alertness and Dodge, and reduce
my Generation as much as possible).
>> may the devil hoof you in the nads
>
>How... poetic.
>
>
>Good Night and Goddess Bless,
>
>Joystarr
>
>"With what luck'st this wee soul gae dancing through the starlit night,
>but the luck that hast been laid 'een 'ere infant's first cry be drawn!"
-Victor: first-year university student, professional amateur, and the
semi-official YRPG cheesy-bastard (at least in Spellfire) :)
"Delenda est Carthago."
(Yes, I know it's completely irrelevant, so how about "Go Leafs Go!"?)
Yehoota
>
>> > Sigh...
>> >
>> > You probably aren't capable of realizing it, but you are proving the
>> > point I make in #4 for me. Witness your utter lack of capitalization
and
>> > your misspelling of the terms "out of", "experience", and "exceptions".
>> > Not to mention your complete failure to use anything resembling an
>> > apostrophe when appropriate.
>
LOL!!!!
I still have to kick you out of the Freakshow though. The signs are clear
:-)
Anthony Toohey
Theryn of Nowhere
Yehoota
>It's time for a refresher course in Usenet tactics. Please do NOT feed
>the trolls! They thrive on animosity. Joystarr is clearly here to get
>a rise out of us. His/her snobbery is so flagrant it has to be faked...
>a deliberate attempt to get us angry.
Very Good, Chris...
You may continue to attend the Freakshow. Keep arms and hands and other
various appendages inside the car at all times :-)
Anthony Toohey
Theryn of Nowhere
I find it amazing how many people like the flavor of VtM brand bait...
Michael Scott Brown
SarahSidhe <sarah...@aol.comREMOVEME> wrote:
><<creative trolling snipped>>
>Methinks I smell a Mock-Troll:
>
>Gawd, you guys are such suckers! Now I want the guy behind this one to come
>forward and confess. Ron? Terry?
Terry always trolls "in person"; which leaves Ron.
Have we seen Ron and Joystick in the same post...?
-Michael
Michael Scott Brown
>You flaunt your outdated adherence to the logocentric ideals of the past.
> Postmodernism killed this stuff, and you had better keep up with the
>times or your worldview will suck you into the oblivion it is
>currently swirling into.
I thought this was really cute.
>No, no... I am operating out of a desire to serve and enlighten, as I
>said before. The fact that the Unreachable will throw their own excretia
>at me like the baboons they are only serves to strengthed my argument
>that I do what I do out of sheer benevolence to those who are Ready.
And this even moreso.
<giggles>
Quite artful in its absurdity, this is.
-Michael, who suggests everyone stop feeding the troll now
Chris Campbell
>You flaunt your outdated adherence to the logocentric ideals of the past.
> Postmodernism killed this stuff, and you had better keep up with the
>times or your worldview will suck you into the oblivion it is
>currently swirling into.
Joystarr? Just a hint, here: you're behind the times. Postmodernism is dead.
>> All this for a crummy commercial????????? Hey guys, it looks like > Joystarr
>> works for WhiteWolf!!!!!!!
>
>No, no... I am operating out of a desire to serve and enlighten, as I
>said before. The fact that the Unreachable will throw their own excretia
>at me like the baboons they are only serves to strengthed my argument
>that I do what I do out of sheer benevolence to those who are Ready.
Now, if only you numbered among them . . .
--
Oh my God! They've killed Kosh! You bastards!
Chris Campbell Sank...@ix.netcom.com
Chris Campbell
I always thought Ogurs were more clever than Trolls. <Scratches Ogur behind
the ears> Keep it up, fella.
Chris Campbell
>-Michael, who suggests everyone stop feeding the troll now
I dunno; kinda fun to watch the Ogur go to work, y'know?
Jamie Nossal
>
> You are a player of AD&D, yes? This makes sense, then. You are just
> beginning your gaming experience, and the WW players that you are meeting
> are just beginning to come into the fold.
Snort. Yeah, I just began my "experience" twenty years ago when the whol
vamp parade was nothing but a Anne Rice daydream.
>
> I am merely trying to enlighten!
I found the Knights of the Dinner Table sendup rather enlightening. KoDT
not only nails the foibles of the AD&D game, it did a hilarious job of
defanging the pretensions of the VtM crowd.
Vermilion
>Conner wrote:
>> All role-playing preference aside, you are clearly a bore, Joystarr, and not
>> the sort of person I would have at my cocktail parties.
>(Amused)
>As if I'd attend. You probably don't even know who Versace IS.
(Pedantic)
Was. Who Gianni Versace was.
- Vermilion, abreast of these not quite current current-events. "He's
dead, Jim."
Vermilion
>gilmae wrote:
>> remember that when we kill this one, we have to apply fire or acid to
>> him
>I'm sorry, but this could only be taken as a personal threat. Your ISP
>has been notified, and legal action against them will ensue if they do
>not revoke your account immediately.
>Good Night and Goddess Bless,
>Joystarr
Rofl... So you've abandoned the pose of enlightened zen master Usenet poster
in favor of wounded and thin-skinned Usenet reader? An unpredictable
about-face, you have my compliments. Of course, if gilmae had actually been
making a threat, maybe you'd have something...
- Vermilion, who has always found the philosopher troll amongst the most
entertaining on Usenet. More palatable than the Terry troll, if
nothing else.
Balor
@ Joystarr wrote:
@ > "With what luck'st this wee soul gae dancing through the starlit night,
@ > but the luck that hast been laid 'een 'ere infant's first cry be drawn!"
@
@ It's time for a refresher course in Usenet tactics. Please do NOT feed
@ the trolls! They thrive on animosity. Joystarr is clearly here to get
@ a rise out of us. His/her snobbery is so flagrant it has to be faked...
@ a deliberate attempt to get us angry.
Of course it is.
It's almost a syndrome: there are a group of people out there who thrive on
creating hostility. The problem is, they tend to be puny little people
(mentally and physically), and resort to using the Internet to do it in order
to hide behind the veil of anonymity. It makes it easier for them because
they believe there are no reprecussions for doing so (like getting the crap
beat out of you).
Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
> Here is my list of proof that Vampire: the Masquerade is superior to
> AD&D, and that players of White Wolf games are generally more "mature"
> and "higher order" than players of AD&D (either version):
List of *opinions.* There is a difference between fact and opinion.
Look them up, if you wish.
> 1. Age level: While age and maturity are not identical, age certainly
> affects maturity. Most new players of AD&D are high school teenagers.
> As time goes on, some of these teens grow up and mature a bit, and get
> interested in the more mature White Wolf games after they enter college.
Generalization. I played AD&D first, then got into WW games, and then--
out of boredom and problems I had with the WoD--I came back to AD&D. I am
currently 27 years old.
> 2. Education level: Linked to #1, above.
This is a weak and arbitrary generalization. I know as many college
students into AD&D as I do who play V:tM or Masq. I, for one.
> 3. Moral Complexity: AD&D has strict definitions of "Good" and "Evil", as
> well as "Law" and "Chaos".
<snip>
The fact that alignments aren't realistic is a valid point. What you fail
to understand, however, is that high fantasy isn't supposed to present a
model of real life. And if you can't include moral ambiguity and
relativism in AD&D game--including the alignment system--this is a
failure on your part and not the game's. I have no problems doing such,
myself.
Also, are you not aware how arbitrary the Path of Humanity and the other
paths are? Paths are simply a variation on the alignment theme. Prove
otherwise.
> 4. Language Level:
<snip>
So more verbiose = better game?
> 5. Adult Artwork:
More tits doesn't equal more mature artwork. It could be argued that the
proliferation of seminude and nude supermodel vampires--few of which have
smaller than a C cup--objectifies women and draws the sexually repressed
male elements of the gaming community.
> 6. LARP: The clear reason why WW has been able to successfully inspire
> local artists to perform LARP games on a regular basis in most
> communities is the superior creativity, organization, and overall
> maturity levels of the White Wolf gamers.
I've been to numerous LARPS, and I've seen little more than posing Goths
chain-smoking clove cigarettes, Malkavians running around and pretending
to be Luke Skywalker/Bugs Bunny/Charles Manson, and several hack-and-slash
types running around and engaging whoever they can in physical contests.
It disappointed me greatly, because at the time I liked the table-top
version.
> Remember that AD&D fans have
> tried unsuccessfully to set up their own LARP-type games for years, and
> have never been able to get past the "hack-'em-up" swords and male
> power fantasy stage.
I'll admmit they are as annoying as Masqers.
> 7. Female Interest: It is painfully clear to most honest AD&D players
> that very few females are interested in their hobby.
Not from my experience. The last game I ran had two male players and
seven female players.
> This is the result fo a variety of problems. First, the overall lower
> maturity level of (male) AD&D gamers really turns women off to the
> game. Women just do not want to drink beer, burp, fart, and talk about
> "titties" all night long.
Those same titties that repeatedly show up in the prepubescent-wet-dream
artwork of V:tM?
> Secondly, women are generally superior to men in maturity, especially
> earlier in life. This means that they will
> automatically be attracted to the "higher-order" (maturity-wise) White
> Wolf games. And they are! Few White Wolf gaming groups have trouble
> finding female gamers, and a great number of WW groups have a 50% (or
> higher!) female gamer quotient.
And whites are generally superior to blacks, Christians are more moral
than pagans, all gays are depraved sex-crazed pedophiles, and everyone
else in the country is intellectually superior to Southerners, all of whom
eat watermelon and burn crosses. Anyone else have any more pointless and
groundless elitist bullshit to add to the list?
> 8. Ethnicity: In my experience, and the experience of many other White
> Wolf gamers I have spoken with, there is a much higher degree of
> multiculturalism at the gaming table in the average WW game when
> compared to the average AD&D game. This is probably for a variety of
> reasons, including the average overall higher level of education of
> White Wolf gamers.
I like multiculturalism a lot, but you are saying that because your
average AD&D player is white (as are most WW gamers I've met), that it is
an inferior game? That is an inherently racist comment. More women than
men like soap operas (which I like, BTW); does tthis mean soap operas are
good or bad? No. It means more women than like soap operas, simple as
that. More whites play AD&D than do those of other races, which simply
means that more whites play AD&D than do those of other races.
> Remember, too, the lack of moral relativism in AD&D, which
> promotes separatist "black and white" moral reasoning, thereby subtly
> promoting feelings of cultural superiority and isolationism.
Ever hear of a drow elf by the name of Drizzt Dourden(sp)?
> My own gaming group consists of a Black male Storyteller, two White
> females, one White (Jewish) male, an Arabic male, and an Hispanic/Native
> American female.
My, aren't we special? But you forgot to include an Asian woman, a senior
citizen, and a lesbian in a wheelchair, so I regret to inform you that you
don't recieve the Gaming Sensitivity award this time.
> 9. Psychoanalytic Potential: While not a staple of the genre, most White
> Wolf games allow players to more fully explore who they truly are, to
> get a better feel for their "true" inner "characters".
Arbitrary opinion. I've engaged in as much character development and
soul-searching with AD&D and Runequest characters as I have with WW
characters.
> While admittedly
> POSSIBLE in AD&D, this sort of transcendental experience is generally
> blocked by the excessive AD&D dwelling on combat and male power fantasy.
Sorry that's been your experience. Do try to get out more.
> Lacking a feminine, introspective element, AD&D is a malformed,
> underdeveloped vehicle for the sort of personal journeys possible under
> the inspiration of the superior Storyteller (as opposed to
> "hack-n'-slayer") system.
Labelling introspection, sensitivity, empathy, maturity and compassion as
specifically female character traits (while males are saddled with such
"negative" ones as agressiveness, immaturity, lack of emotion and the
like) is sexist, arbitrary and inaccurate. I've seen all these traits in
equal proportion in both sexes, and despite what many feminists would have
you believe women are no better than men (or worse, for that matter).
For instance, it's been shown in numerous studies that women hit as often
as or more than men in domestic disputes. So are men more prone to
inflict spousal abuse than women? No. Men tend to hit harder than women
because of superior upper body strength, and therefore men leave a much
greter imression than they do hit. There are more blacks in prizon for
violent crime than ther are in college, so does this mean that blacks are
inherently more violent? No. The social situations that encourage
violent crime in blacks has been observed in the poor and oppressed
communities of numerous races.
Shows how futile and fallacious it is to try and button-hole character
traits into groups of people.
Also, I play AD&D and don't do hack and slash games.
> 10. Most AD&D players know that the Storyteller system is much more
> mature and sophisticated, whether they admit it to themselves or not.
> This is evidenced by the fact that "straight" AD&D gamers and
> "straight" WW gamers, when mixed together, often have difficulties
> interacting. The AD&D players often complain of the WW gamers'
> "pompous" or "snobbish" attitudes (as the less developed people often
> do),
I've never seen this negative interaction. In fact, most people who play
WW games that I know play AD&D too, and like both.
> while the WW people actually have no real beef with the AD&D people.
At least in your case, this isn't true. If it were, you wouldn't be
taking the time to bash us cavemen.
> They simply have nothing to say to them, having already found something
> more to their liking and grown weary of trying to convince the AD&D
> players to try something new, only to get shot down by the non-creative
> and immature.
*Yawn.*
> Please note that I mean no offense to the average AD&D player here!
Liar.
> Many White Wolf players got their start with AD&D,
..and eventually return to it.
> and as such the gaming system should be treated with the respect it
> deserves.
And its players deserve respect, too. More than you've given either they
or the game. Since you don't like AD&D, why are you here other than to
wave your penis around?
> AD&D is typically an excellent vehicle for the indoctrination of
> youthful teens into the gaming community at large, and most WW gamers
> feel that their "AD&D Years" were an important part of their
> development.
And thus many don't leave it. If they do, it's a matter of personal
preference, and not because WW (or Shadowrun, or Rolemaster, or CORPS) is
any better than AD&D.
> However, like anything else, there is a time when the superior must
> inevitably move on to higher-order challenges.
True. Soon you'll quit posting your inane, elitist crap here and, being
content with your WoD games, devote that wasted effort into playing them.
> As you can see, the WW "Storyteller" system is plainly suited more for
> the "mature" role-player, while the AD&D stage of roleplaying is an
> earlier, more "primitive" one, often necessary to pass through before
> one is truly seasoned for the challenge of the White Wolf games.
If you were at the maturity level you clain to be, you wouldn use
superfluous punctuation in your sentences (such as the unwarranted
quotation marks).
> If YOU have recently become "bored" or disappointed in your typical RPG,
> check out some of the wonderful White Wolf gaming products available at
> a gaming store near you!
I used to have all five of the WoD games, I sold except for two particu-
larly well-written books.
> Good Night and Goddess Bless,
Let me guess--yet another poser Wiccan?
How sad. Unable to comprehend that two game systems can be equal to each
other even though you prefer one of them, and not understanding the simple
concept that opinion does not equal fact, you are yet another individual
engaging in a futile attempt to compare apples and oranges and prove that
one is innately superior. You are guilty of the same lack of relativism
you are so quick to condemn others for.
I don't play WW games any more. Does this mean that it is an inferior
game? No, it means that--for a number of reasons--it doesn't suit my
personal preferences. I prefer AD&D to most other game systems, yet this
doesn't mean that AD&D is a better game. It also doesn't mean--despite
your attempts to describe me as such--that I am a powergamer, a hack-and-
slasher, an immmature gamer, or a simpleton.
Sorry, you are not a winner. Please try again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
| Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman |
---------------------------------
"Making the world a better place through the application of Uncle Chuck's
teachings."
Do __........__ Add
the .-' .-.|"\| |+.'-. / a
gene ." |"\|_||_/| |||\ |".,^ bucket
pool `. |_/| || \| | ||| \|.'^, of
a "-._' '| ||/ \|+_.-" \ chlorine
service... "|"|-----\"\ today!
(__/ (__/ sw/sk
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
LrdTuerny
arguments but rather to those who are making ignorable mistakes in grammar or
spelling?
Jesse
Lord Tuerny the Merciless
Lord of the Iron Flask
Servant of the Abyss
Planewalker Extrordianre
Paul MacDonald
By pointing out that you and Joyboy are posting from the same server?
>
> - Ron ^*^
Paul MacDonald
Walt Harris
> In article <7bs21s$f...@chronicle.concentric.net>, "Christian Walker" <ant...@NOSPAMdeltanet.com> wrote:
> >OGUR BOY wrote in message <36E1AA...@THE.CAVE>...
> >>*OGURS* AWLEES *DETSTROY* DUM VAMPIYERS WHEN FITE IN SUNN!!! DUM
> >>VAMPIYUERS WHAT SUK *BLUDD* ANDND MELTT IN TOO *ASHIZ* WEN HIT BYE
> >>SUNN!!! VAMPIYTUER MORE WEEKER THEN LITE!!! IS TOO *STOOPID*!!!
> >>HARG HARG HARG!!!
> >
> >Christian pats Ogur on the head and gives him a Scooby snack for his
> >brave and daring attempt to rid the group of a nasty Vampire Troll.
>
> I always thought Ogurs were more clever than Trolls. <Scratches Ogur behind
> the ears> Keep it up, fella.
The only problem with trolls is that they regenerate
Klaatu B. Nikto
>
> Conner wrote:
>
> > WW games are hardly played exclusively by mature college students. I have
> > met more immature, tragi-goth, teenagers who play WW games than I care to
> > count.
>
> You are a player of AD&D, yes? This makes sense, then. You are just
> beginning your gaming experience, and the WW players that you are meeting
> as the rest of us because they have less experience -- I wouldn't be
> surprised if these people you have met are former (or even current)
> AD&D players. We mustn't discourage them -- they can only improve with
> an excellent system like Storyteller!
*laf* What a crock. Not a lot of room for individuality when all the
stats go up to 5, excepting certain rules. The games aren't very
compatible either since Vamp, Werewolf, Mage, Wraith, Changling, the
Professor and Mary Ann ;) aren't very compatible.
Sorry but White Wolf also has a bad reputation for errata. Also, some
of
the regulars might remember when a "company man" got onto one of the
newsgroups (rgf.misc?) and called everyone something like "net freaks"
or
something similiarly insulting in a futile attempt to be "cool". I
think
that was when White Wolf magazine was launched.
And spare me any flames about Gilligan's Island. ;)
> I am merely trying to enlighten!
Gee thanks. I've played WW games before. Other than a few ideas I
swiped
for my AD&D games, I wasn't impressed. I've been more enlightened
watching
a test pattern.
> Try not to take it the wrong way. Remember that I have already noted
> that AD&D has a (valuable!) place in the gaming community. Attracting
> new, younger gamers is important.
*laf*
You're right that Vamp is superior than AD&D. There's a wrestler in
the WWF named Gangrel and he's a "vampire" who occasionally drinks
"blood" from goblet or dumps it on his "Adversary of the Week"(tm).
Offhand, I'd guess that his finishing move has some name resembling
a Vampiric Discipline.
> > The true bottom line is that there is no role-playing system that can be
> > categorized by maturity level. All games can be and are played by players
> > of all ages, ethnicity, sex, and maturity level.
>
> True -- but there are TENDENCIES and TRENDS that cannot be ignored by any
> but the foolish or willfully ignorant. Surely even you can see this.
Like virtually all WW gamers tend to be "combat wombats"? As in the
gifts, disciplines, etc all tend to be how to add more friggin' dice
to an astronomical amount already? If WW games were superior, they'd
use less dice for results. Offhand, I'd say that TSR's old Top Secret
% dice mechanic was among the most superior. 1 roll determined hit
location and damage IIRC.
And don't call me Shirley.
> I knew some AD&D zealots would see things this way when I posted. Oh,
> well. It was not to people like you that I was truly speaking; rather, I
> was trying to enlightened those who were ready and prepared to move on to
> the next level of gaming.
*laf*
Never knew that White wolf games equate to transcendental experiences.
"Grasshopper, when you can snatch pebble from hand, I can teach you no
more."
Uh sure. Whatever.
I figured it was an attempt to cash in on the "X-Files / big conspiracy
/
really cool to be evil" fever that was prevalent. Just pick up any of
the
Werewolf stuff. Pentex has its grubby fingers in everything and all of
the
world's evils are because of it and by some huge entity called the Wyrm.
> > Your post is mostly rubbish, ludicrous, and a
> > thinly-veiled invitation for flaming.
>
> LOL! In your last breath, you claimed that I was someone on WW's
> payroll, and now I am a mere troll! You flaunt your ignorance.
As to another post about using fire or acid on you, evidently in your
"superiority" you don't know how a troll in AD&D works. In your terms,
fire and acid do aggravated damage to it so it won't come back from the
dead. Tsk tsk. Superior indeed. Pride comes before a fall.
> Good Night and Goddess Bless,
Well -my- goddess can beat up -your- goddess!
Klaatu
--
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that there's intelligent life on
other planets is that none of it has tried to contact us."
- Calvin, "Calvin and Hobbes"
Klaatu B. Nikto
> *OGUR BOY* *SMASSHSH* DUM VAMPIYER GYE!!! TROW ROKKS ON HEDD ANDND
> *BASSHSH* STOOPID KOFFEN IN TOO *BITTY* *BITTS*!!!
>
> *OGUR* MORR *STROGG* THEN DUM VAMPIYER EVEN THO VAMPIYER THINKK HIM
> *STROGG* HE ONLEE MORR *STROGG* THEN DUM WEEK UMAN!!! HARG HARG HARG!!!
>
> *OGURS* AWLEES *DETSTROY* DUM VAMPIYERS WHEN FITE IN SUNN!!! DUM
> VAMPIYUERS WHAT SUK *BLUDD* ANDND MELTT IN TOO *ASHIZ* WEN HIT BYE
> SUNN!!! VAMPIYTUER MORE WEEKER THEN LITE!!! IS TOO *STOOPID*!!!
> HARG HARG HARG!!!
>
Ok, I got an idea. Why don't you and Joystarr settle this in an
electrified steel cage match?
Heehee.
I need to stop watching wrasslin'. *grin*
Klaatu B. Nikto
> Christian Walker wrote:
> Thank you for the civility, Chris. You may be ready for White Wolf now.
> I would certainly vouch for you in my gaming circle. Consider it.
Chris, you lucky dawg! You get to transcend your mere AD&D shell for
the glories of White Wolf.
*grin*
You ought to tone the "holier than thou" attitude Joystarr.
Rodney Thompson
newsgroup is used for discussion and questions pertaining to AD&D. White
Wolf games mostly have their own newsgroups. Why, then, is this posted to
this newsgroup? I understand you are trying to make a point about your
opinion of the games, but, well, this is a lure if I ever saw one. I think
this post was, contrary to your post's point, terribly immature. It seems to
me that this was meant to provoke AD&D players, not convert them.
>
>1. Age level
What research have you done on this matter? Are there official surveys out
there that tell you who plays what? Was there a Roleplayer's Census or
something? I'm not sure where you get your proof; just because you see
things one way does not mean that is a uniform standard.
>2. Education level: Linked to #1, above.
My response is linked to my response to #1 above as well. Are there studies
about this sort of thing? I can definitely argue against this one from my
personal experience, but, well, then I'd have no more proof than you.
>3. Moral Complexity: AD&D has strict definitions of "Good" and "Evil", as
>well as "Law" and "Chaos". White Wolf games (even the combat-oriented
>Werewolf) are presented upon a backdrop of moral relativism much more
>closely in tune with the real world.
I'll give you that one, but does that mean it's a better system? Besides,
there is such a thing as grey areas in AD&D too, it's just DM discretion.
You seem to have also left out the Neutral alignments, which I think are
fairly grey areas. If you want black and what, check out the Star Wars RPG.
>
>4. Language Level
I can't see this as being too solid an argument. I'm a well read student,
but despite my expansive vocabulary, with a roleplaying rules system, I want
a simple explanation which is elaborated upon, not a wordy rules
description.
>
>5. Adult Artwork
Artwork makes the system better? Some people, get this, don't like dark,
gothic artwork and such as that, and prefer more fantasy-style art. I do not
think that someone's artistic tastes make a game more sophisticated. I think
the work of Salvador Dali is very unappealing, but does that mean that I am
immature? Do people who prefer Picasso to Van Gogh seem less mature? Two
different art styles, but still art.
>
>6. LARP
Okay, I don't like LARP in any system. Not because it freaks me out or
anything, but it seems that the lines between fantasy and reality blur, and
when I play a roleplaying game, I do it to escape the real world and relax.
Bringing that escape into the real world ruins it for me. I know I am not
alone in my opinion, and though many enjoy LARP, it is by no means a
standard by which other games should be judged.
>
>7. Female Interest
Again, I refer to the studies of #1 and #2 which I doubt exist. My
girlfriend, 6 of her female friends, and dozens of other females I know or
have met roleplay, and roleplay AD&D. The game store at which I run my RPG
sessions has a Vampire game ongoing, in which there are no female
participants. It also has several AD&D campaigns in which there are females.
You cannot judge a game by limited experience.
>8. Ethnicity
Again, the Vampire game ongoing at the local game store is full or white
males between the ages of 16 and 30. I believe you are engaging in a
stereotype based upon your experience and not that of the entire roleplaying
community.
>9. Psychoanalytic Potential
I disagree with this point, because it is the player's duty, not the
system's, to develop your character's inner workings.
>10. Most AD&D players know that the Storyteller system is much more
>mature and sophisticated, whether they admit it to themselves or not.
Um, no. Simply untrue. I do not dislike Storyteller system. I prefer AD&D.
So do many others. Unless you've got some sort of odd omnipotence, you can't
say things like this and expect it to have any validity.
The AD&D players often complain of the WW gamers' "pompous"
>or "snobbish" attitudes (as the less developed people often do), while
>the WW people actually have no real beef with the AD&D people.
You know, you've basically called everyone in this newsgroup who prefers
AD&D immature. You've told us what we think. In point after point you have
torn us down as immature and primitive, "less developed,
and then say you have no real beef with us. If we say it's snobbish, I think
we have evey right. A superiority complex seems to be the problem with this
post, as you refer to us as inferiors for having a different opinion. I find
this not only insulting, but arrogant as well.
>Please note that I mean no offense to the average AD&D player here! Many
>White Wolf players got their start with AD&D, and as such the gaming
>system should be treated with the respect it deserves.
The respect it deserves is not present anywhere in this post. Repeatedly
insulting the players of a game in no way confers respect for a game, and
since the players make the game what it is, I find it very hypocritical that
you tear down a game's players, but then try to say that it should be
respected.
>As you can see, the WW "Storyteller" system is plainly suited more for
>the "mature" role-player, while the AD&D stage of roleplaying is an
>earlier, more "primitive" one, often necessary to pass through before one
>is truly seasoned for the challenge of the White Wolf games.
Well, all that I see is that you've taken points which are full of holes and
tried to sound like you were an authority on the matter, when truth be told
there can be no authority on this subject. It all comes down to personal
preference and opinion. We could start a Jyhad (yes, Vampire pun intended)
over which system is better, but it would be pointless because we'd just end
up mad at each other and there'd be a lot of junk posts. So I think that we
should not carry this debate further. It's like the old Star Wars/Star Trek
debate. It never ends, people end up with hurt feelings and angry with one
another, and absolutely zero good comes of it. So please, no more bait
posts. No more opinion smashing. Let's keep it clean, if possible.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Rodney H. Thompson II
rtho...@utk.edu
Webmaster of the Star Wars RPG Database
http://web.utk.edu/~rthomp11
"Sure I wave the American flag. Do you know a better flag
to wave? Sure I love my country with all her faults. I'm not
ashamed of that, never have been, never will be. We've
made mistakes along the way, but that's no reason to start
tearing up the best flag God ever gave to any country. "
-John Wayne, The Duke
The Archveult
it was nothing near the size that it is now. I will not continue to support
this largely useless discussion. (No offense to anyone intended.)
If Joystarr cannot reply to my arguments directly, then clearly he is not
looking for a real debate. Whatever the educational background and academic
standing, if all one does is reply with a careless glance and casual
disregard then that person is not looking for discussion, rather they seek
only to present their opinion and arrogance. Admittedly my arguments were
not perfectly clear nor well researched as this is a newsgroup thread and
not an academic debate or paper, but I believed my statements had some
merit. Without respect for the players on both sides of a discussion, there
can be no meaningful exchange of ideas. And because I have lost respect for
Joystarr, sadly this discussion must be closed.
THE ARCHVEULT
Chris Campbell
>> >Christian pats Ogur on the head and gives him a Scooby snack for his
>> >brave and daring attempt to rid the group of a nasty Vampire Troll.
>>
>> I always thought Ogurs were more clever than Trolls. <Scratches Ogur behind
>> the ears> Keep it up, fella.
>
>The only problem with trolls is that they regenerate
That's true, but it just lets the Ogur have that much fun over and over again.
:-)
Rich Thompson
> Christian Walker wrote:
> >
> > Next time, Slurp, don't give your adversary so much ammo by posting
> > something that is so easy to dismantle.
>
> Thank you for the civility, Chris. You may be ready for White Wolf now.
> I would certainly vouch for you in my gaming circle. Consider it.
Christian, you've been chosen. The first thing you'll have to do, of
course, is change your name. Then, it's dying all your clothing black, and
shaving your head.
After that, it's just a matter of waiting for the comet to pass by, then
hop abord.
Richard Thompson
Department of Psychology
McGill University
1205 Dr. Penfield Ave.
Montreal, Quebec
H3A 1B1
(514) 842-1231 x4286
"Be not afraid of life. Believe that life is worth living and your belief
will help create the fact."
-William James
Rich Thompson
> Shalavar wrote:
> >
> > Joystarr wrote in message:
> > >
> > >priviliges
>
> A typo. Clearly, we are all capable of making these minor errors.
A little defensive, aren't we?
Not as far along the developmental plane as we thought we were, eh?
> Again -- a typo. I obviously know how to spell "your".
The evidence shows otherwise. And the evidence also shows that manual
dexterity is at least as strongly correlated with IQ as is spelling
ability.
> "Siurpslurp"
> demonstrated his complete ignorance by spelling "opion" several times
> within the same post. He actually believes that that is the proper
> spelling.
And, of course, the mindreading ability noted before.
> I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Common people do common things,
> after all.
Exactly.
Autolycus
>MORE proof that common people do common things. I suppose one can expect
>no better from the Unrisen.
How... self-referential.
Autolycus
(who is genuinely hurt to see wolves of any sort get such bad press
because of you)
Autolycus
>Clearly a forged account.
Ron! It's you, I know! It must be YOU! It MUST be you! IT must be you!
You... slanderer of wolves by reverse psychology, you!
*growl*
Autolycus
Autolycus
>Gary Astleford wrote:
>
>> The question of the century, then, is :
>> Why in the hell has this thread lasted this long?
>
>I believe the sage, Terry Austin, may be able to shed some light on that
>one!
I know why. It is a disguised alignment/assassin/lycanthrope/undead thread.
It will have a lifespan of at least 500 posts and you cannot stop it!
Hahahahahahahaha!
Autolycus
(a steadily more deranged wolf)
Autolycus
>You flaunt your outdated adherence to the logocentric ideals of the past.
> Postmodernism killed this stuff, and you had better keep up with the
>times or your worldview will suck you into the oblivion it is
>currently swirling into.
Interesting. My sentence-structure analyser tells me that these lines were
not penned by the earlier Joystarr. Either you are more than one person or
one person pretending to be another, and slipping out of character. The
last alternative is that you have a split personality. No, wait; perhaps
you are merely shifting between your basilect and your acrolect.
Very purple. Reading your posts is a little like wading... in the purple rain.
Autolycus
(now a purple wolf)
Rich Thompson
> I found the Knights of the Dinner Table sendup rather enlightening. KoDT
> not only nails the foibles of the AD&D game, it did a hilarious job of
> defanging the pretensions of the VtM crowd.
Did anyone else see the SNL skit about goths, about 4 months ago?
Protowzrd
>> check out some of the wonderful White Wolf gaming products available at a
>> gaming store near you!
>
>works for WhiteWolf!!!!!!!
I think not. The people I've met from White Wolf, are much more mature and
"down to earth" than Joystarr...
Oh Joystarr, here's a little quote, from my dear pal, Legate Legion:
"It's not the system that matters. It's ROLE PLAYING that matters."
BTW, my gaming history goes like this:
Palladium (their old fantasy game)-->Robotech-->Rifts-->AD&D-->White
Wolf-->Star Wars-->NightSPAWN (death to the Todd beast)-->Heavy Gear
As you can see, I have played several systems. I can testify, one is not better
than the other.
-Shiv
"My race, was protoculturally devoid of everything, except the desire to fight.
We were developed as toys for our creators, the Robotech Masters. We are toys
of destruction." -Exedore
Protowzrd
<snippage of the rest of Joystarr's message>
Joystarr, a wise man once told me, "Use big words because they're useful, not
because they're big."
And as for worldviews, you have no idea what any of our worldviews are. I,
myself, am a Libertarian Socialist (I can use large words as well).
(If you can't figure out what a Libertarian Socialist is, you shouldn't talk
about out-of-date worldviews)
-Shiv
"My race, was protoculturally devoid of everything, except the desire to fight.
We were developed as toys for our creators, the Robotech Masters. We are toys
of destruction." -Exedore
PS: Is it my imagination, or did I originally intend not to get sucked into the
argument? Oh well, no one's perfect.
Protowzrd
>
>in favor of wounded and thin-skinned Usenet reader? An unpredictable
>about-face, you have my compliments. Of course, if gilmae had actually been
>making a threat, maybe you'd have something...
No no no no no, I've talked to actual Zen masters. If he was a Zen master, he'd
simply say, "Hello, my name is Toshiro (or some other Japanese-sounding name).
I hope to enjoy discussing (A)D&D with you."
Now, as for "notifying your ISP," let me tell you a story about Y'kaa'no
(Yak...@aol.com). Believe me, he and ab...@aol.com know eachother on a first
name basis. He still keeps coming back though. In a word (five actually):
Joystarr, it aint worth it.
Jason Eric Nelson
Klaatu B. Nikto <std...@shsu.edu> wrote:
>Joystarr wrote:
>>
>> Conner wrote:
>
>> > The true bottom line is that there is no role-playing system that can be
>> > categorized by maturity level. All games can be and are played by players
>> > of all ages, ethnicity, sex, and maturity level.
>>
>> True -- but there are TENDENCIES and TRENDS that cannot be ignored by any
>> but the foolish or willfully ignorant. Surely even you can see this.
>
>Like virtually all WW gamers tend to be "combat wombats"? As in the
>gifts, disciplines, etc all tend to be how to add more friggin' dice
>to an astronomical amount already? If WW games were superior, they'd
>use less dice for results. Offhand, I'd say that TSR's old Top Secret
>% dice mechanic was among the most superior. 1 roll determined hit
>location and damage IIRC.
One die roll? You rolled against Offense to see if you hit (modified for
your weapon, movement, ammunition, silencer, etc.). If you hit, you
rolled 2d10:
roll odd=light even=severe
1-2 abrasion 1 life level 2 LL
3-4 incision 3 4
5-6 laceration 5 6
7-8 puncture 7 8
9 fracture 9 10
10 internal damage 11 12
And then, of course, there were the very interesting hand-to-hand combat
resolution tables for Boxing, Martial Arts, Judo, Knife-Fighting, etc.
Always go for a high Military Science AOK if you can get it!
Ah for the good old days of Sprechenhaltestelle and Operation:Rapidstrike!
(By the way, I never got Top Secret/SI, but I heard from others that
guns were nearly useless and that the best way to attack was to get
a sword and go barbarian on anybody you met...)
Jason Nelson
tja...@u.washington.edu
"Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" - Job 38:2
DURANLEAU Francois
> 3. Moral Complexity: AD&D has strict definitions of "Good" and "Evil", as
> well as "Law" and "Chaos". White Wolf games (even the combat-oriented
> Werewolf) are presented upon a backdrop of moral relativism much more
> closely in tune with the real world. It is like an adolescent's "black
> and white" moral view compared to the more "grey" moral view of a mature,
> educated adult, with room for nuances of behavior, personality, and
> situation that the AD&D moral straightjacket and blinders simply do not
> allow for.
Either this person never played AD&D or he(she?) never learned to play it
well, or never understood the alignment system, because all this is just
not true.
[snip other bla bla bla]
> Please note that I mean no offense to the average AD&D player here!
Ah ah ah! I wasn't (well, ok, maybe just a bit... well, everyone has his
or her own ego (:>) ), but I just saw that you did not have to opportunity
to push your AD&D experience at a higher level. Too bad for you... In
fact, I am sad for you. Anywa, hope you'll enjoy your WW games.
[snip again other bla bla bla]
___________________________________________________________________
"There once was a boy who dreamed of being a hero,
who believed sincerely in the battle
to banish Darkness from a world of Light.
But Light and Darkness are equal,
and where one exists, so too must the other.
And when the boy finally realized this,
he had taken the first step toward being a true hero."
- from Record of Lodoss War
Francois Duranleau
Etudiant au baccalaureat bidisciplinaire Mathematique-Informatique
Universite de Montreal
<dura...@jsp.umontreal.ca>
DURANLEAU Francois
> I knew some AD&D zealots would see things this way when I posted. Oh,
> well. It was not to people like you that I was truly speaking; rather, I
> was trying to enlightened those who were ready and prepared to move on to
> the next level of gaming.
After investing so much money in AD&D stuff, I'm not sure I'd like to
leave it there. You may say that I can play both at the same time, but I
don't have the time (working, university, DMing, plus at least a bit of
social life...). You just sound like one of my friends. He plays Vampire,
and he feels it is superior to AD&D. However, I knew with who he had
played AD&D, and how long, and I must say that he did not have the
opportunity to really get into a more evolved level. He really tends to
generalize strange things on the subject of AD&D, much I you seem to do
too.
Werebat
> Now, as for "notifying your ISP," let me tell you a story about Y'kaa'no
> (Yak...@aol.com). Believe me, he and ab...@aol.com know eachother on a first
> name basis.
HEY!!! I've met that idiot!!!
Yakanoh... Yeah, yeah... He had some really lame arguments about White
superiority.
- Ron ^*^
sean
wrote:
>Here is my list of proof that Vampire: the Masquerade is superior to
>AD&D, and that players of White Wolf games are generally more "mature"
>and "higher order" than players of AD&D (either version):
>
>1. Age level: While age and maturity are not identical, age certainly
>affects maturity. Most new players of AD&D are high school teenagers.
>As time goes on, some of these teens grow up and mature a bit, and get
>interested in the more mature White Wolf games after they enter college.
I would disagree...in the areas where I play, most of the people
playing VTM are very young..because its like K3wL D3Wd and has
vampires and stuff whereas DnD is the game the old fogies play.
>
>2. Education level: Linked to #1, above. Since most players of WW games
>start in college, it is clear that most WW gamers are more educated than
>most AD&D players. NOTE that this is only a generalization! While it
>would be foolish to claim that AD&D players do not enter college, it
>would be equally foolish to deny that most gamers do not get interested
>in the more mature White Wolf games until they are "ready".
Nonsense. Elitist claptrap. I see no proof of this.
>3. Moral Complexity: AD&D has strict definitions of "Good" and "Evil", as
>well as "Law" and "Chaos". White Wolf games (even the combat-oriented
>Werewolf) are presented upon a backdrop of moral relativism much more
>closely in tune with the real world. It is like an adolescent's "black
>and white" moral view compared to the more "grey" moral view of a mature,
>educated adult, with room for nuances of behavior, personality, and
>situation that the AD&D moral straightjacket and blinders simply do not
>allow for.
Once again, I disagree. VTM DOES lend itself to interesting
roleplaying, but it is designed around a milieu of moral ambiguity.
DnD is SUPPOSED to be about bad guys and good guys..heroic deeds and
tales of derring do. The idea that Moral relativism is somehow more
'mature' is quite frankly, insulting to me.
>4. Language Level: The standard AD&D rulebooks (2nd Edition) were written
>for high school (or younger) children. While the 1st Edition AD&D books
>were written by Gary Gygax for an "older" crowd, it is clear where the
>AD&D game has evolved (DEvolved?) to. Even considering Gygax's complex
>"purple prose", the typical White Wolf manual or handbook scores higher
>on any modern text editor when scanned for reading level (2nd Edition
>AD&D = 6th Grade level, 1st Edition AD&D = 10th Grade level, and White
>Wolf products = early college level).
Perhaps..but I don't judge the mechanics of a game and the
intelligence of its players based on the manual.
>5. Adult Artwork: AD&D is specifically designed to shield children from
>the harsh vagaries of the modern world. Because of this (and the fact
>that Mommy and Daddy are shelling out the dough for TSR), AD&D artwork
>tends to be second-rate to third-rate because of the restriction of the
>artists who work for TSR. This is true of written work as well as visual
>art, but I am speaking primarily of visual artwork here. Because WW
>employs artists who are more free to forge ahead as the spirit moves
>them, they end up with higher-quality art. Consider that even AD&D
>"modern artistic legends" like DiTerlizzi got their creative starts with
>White Wolf.
Once again..I fail to see how this makes me, as a person who has
enjoyed DnD a slack jawed yokel.
>6. LARP: The clear reason why WW has been able to successfully inspire
>local artists to perform LARP games on a regular basis in most
>communities is the superior creativity, organization, and overall
>maturity levels of the White Wolf gamers. Remember that AD&D fans have
>tried unsuccessfully to set up their own LARP-type games for years, and
>have never been able to get past the "hack-'em-up" swords and male power
>fantasy stage.
VTM LARP works only amongst the goth scene from what I have seen
>7. Female Interest: It is painfully clear to most honest AD&D players
>that very few females are interested in their hobby. This is the result
>fo a variety of problems. First, the overall lower maturity level of
>(male) AD&D gamers really turns women off to the game. Women
>just do not want to drink beer, burp, fart, and talk about
>"titties" all night long. Secondly, women are generally superior to men
>in maturity, especially earlier in life. This means that they will
>automatically be attracted to the "higher-order" (maturity-wise) White
>Wolf games. And they are! Few White Wolf gaming groups have trouble
>finding female gamers, and a great number of WW groups have a 50% (or
>higher!) female gamer quotient.
Wow, now THERES a generalisation if I ever heard it. Women are not
attracted to VTM because it is 'more mature'. Its been my personal
experience that the majority of women in VTM are from the goth and
pagan communities, which VTM caters to very well. DnD is more action
oriented, and thus less attractive to women. The idea that I, As a
male am playing DnD because I am incapable of the supposed 'cultural
graces' attainable by women is a load of BS.
>
>8. Ethnicity: In my experience, and the experience of many other White
>Wolf gamers I have spoken with, there is a much higher degree of
>multiculturalism at the gaming table in the average WW game when compared
>to the average AD&D game. This is probably for a variety of reasons,
>including the average overall higher level of education of White Wolf
>gamers. Remember, too, the lack of moral relativism in AD&D, which
>promotes separatist "black and white" moral reasoning, thereby subtly
>promoting feelings of cultural superiority and isolationism. My own
>gaming group consists of a Black male Storyteller, two White females, one
>White (Jewish) male, an Arabic male, and an Hispanic/Native American
>female.
Politically correct psycho-babble. I see no evidence for this.
>
>9. Psychoanalytic Potential: While not a staple of the genre, most White
>Wolf games allow players to more fully explore who they truly are, to get
>a better feel for their "true" inner "characters". While admittedly
>POSSIBLE in AD&D, this sort of transcendental experience is generally
>blocked by the excessive AD&D dwelling on combat and male power fantasy.
> Lacking a feminine, introspective element, AD&D is a malformed,
>underdeveloped vehicle for the sort of personal journeys possible under
>the inspiration of the superior Storyteller (as opposed to
>"hack-n'-slayer") system.
Even more elitist femigoguery...
I play DnD to have fun, not experience some quasi religious
'transcendental experience'..Im sure most people here would agree.
>10. Most AD&D players know that the Storyteller system is much more
>mature and sophisticated, whether they admit it to themselves or not.
>This is evidenced by the fact that "straight" AD&D gamers and
>"straight" WW gamers, when mixed together, often have difficulties
>interacting. The AD&D players often complain of the WW gamers' "pompous"
>or "snobbish" attitudes (as the less developed people often do), while
>the WW people actually have no real beef with the AD&D people. They
>simply have nothing to say to them, having already found something more
>to their liking and grown weary of trying to convince the AD&D players
>to try something new, only to get shot down by the non-creative and
>immature.
No..we resent the incredibly pompous attitude presented to us
individuals such as yourself. ITS A GAME! Thats all it is...The idea
that you, or anyone is somehow *better* or more *sophisticated*
because they have fun with a different set of rules is without a doubt
the most assinine thing I have ever read. Are Monopoly players
inferior to chess players? Its a matter of taste and preference. You
are little more than a bigot, judging people ON THE GAME THEY PLAY
fer cryin' out loud.
>Please note that I mean no offense to the average AD&D player here! Many
>White Wolf players got their start with AD&D, and as such the gaming
>system should be treated with the respect it deserves. AD&D is typically
>an excellent vehicle for the indoctrination of youthful teens into the
>gaming community at large, and most WW gamers feel that their "AD&D
>Years" were an important part of their development. However, like
>anything else, there is a time when the superior must inevitably move on
>to higher-order challenges.
>
>As you can see, the WW "Storyteller" system is plainly suited more for
>the "mature" role-player, while the AD&D stage of roleplaying is an
>earlier, more "primitive" one, often necessary to pass through before one
>is truly seasoned for the challenge of the White Wolf games.
>
>If YOU have recently become "bored" or disappointed in your typical RPG,
>check out some of the wonderful White Wolf gaming products available at a
>gaming store near you!
>Good Night and Goddess Bless,
>
>Joystarr
>
>"With what luck'st this wee soul gae dancing through the starlit night,