TSRJIM: Question Regarding "Published"
Jeff Barnes
have somehow "overlooked" it or "forgotten" to answer it. Maybe you
can enlighten me...
TSR won't accept manuscripts for publication unless one is a published
writer, correct?
However, placing materials on mpgn.com is considered "publishing" by
TSR.
So, my question is this: If I have something placed on mpgn.com, does
this mean I am now able to submit novels, adventure manuscripts, etc.
to TSR since I am a "published" author?
-Drizzt (suspects TSR will try to have it both ways, but wants to see
what legalese they try to employ to worm their way out of it)
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Jeff Barnes bar...@wkuvx1.wku.edu
WKU Finance/CIS Department http://pulsar.cs.wku.edu/~barnejd/home.html
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"The strongest desire is neither love nor hate. It is one person's need to
change another person's copy." - Anonymous
Veggie Boy
> have somehow "overlooked" it or "forgotten" to answer it. Maybe you
> can enlighten me...
> TSR won't accept manuscripts for publication unless one is a published
> writer, correct?
Magazine or Dungeon Magazine first, and if they like your stuff, the
creative staff will contact you about additional work. The periodicals
staff is equipped to handle "cold" submissions, so that is where they should
go. I can post the Dragon/Dungeon submission guidelines here, if you like,
so you know what you have to do to make a submission.
Most staff writers (either for games or novels) start out by writing
for the mags. Publishing on MPGN (or any other site) does not hinder your
chances, but it also does not help - although good reviews from the net
might be enough to encourage you to submit your work.
- Sean Reynolds
TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com
Aaron Brasket
I'd like to see the submission guide lines. Can you post them or mail
them to me?
--
Aaron Brasket
Program in Atmosphere and Ocean Sciences
University of Colorado
pete
>for the mags. Publishing on MPGN (or any other site) does not hinder your
>chances, but it also does not help - although good reviews from the net
>might be enough to encourage you to submit your work.
>
>
>- Sean Reynolds
> TSR Online Coordinator
> TSR...@aol.com
>
>
are there different routes (portfolio submission, etc.)?
-p.
pete
>Of course, most publishers will at least pretend to read cold
>submissions, but TSR isn't really in the novel business. Are they?
>
Unless you're being sarastic (related to sarcasm), you should know
that TSR has its claws deeply imbedded in the novel business. They've
had a number of bestsellers. This is pure guesswork, but I would
reckon that TSR rakes in more cash from novels than any other source.
Does anybody have any real numbers on this?
-p.
Terry Austin
> Most staff writers (either for games or novels) start out by writing
>for the mags. Publishing on MPGN (or any other site) does not hinder your
>chances, but it also does not help - although good reviews from the net
>might be enough to encourage you to submit your work.
This seems to be the easiest way to break into the business of
writing, regardless of the genre. All publishers suggest trying short
fiction, submitted to magazines, first. A lot of people find they
just don't have the discipline to write consistantly. A novel is a
major commitment in time, and publishers don't like wasting the time
to get someone to start one who doesn't have the commitment to finish.
Of course, most publishers will at least pretend to read cold
submissions, but TSR isn't really in the novel business. Are they?
Terry "I finally made it into Larry Smith's killfile" Austin
What does USG stand for anyway, Larry? Unusually Stupid Guy?
What proof do we have that Larry Smith and Slacker01 are not,
in fact, the same person. Has anyone ever seen the two of
them together?
Veggie Boy
games, stories and so on. As a matter of company policy, TSR doesn't
accept any unsolicited works for consideration. However, DRAGON
Magazine does accept these works, provided they're submitted properly.
The attached file is a complete set of submission guidelines for DRAGON.
Also, there's a disclosure form that you'll need to sign and include
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month. Submissions often need to wait.
DRAGON(R) Magazine Guidelines for Contributors
Know the ground rules first
These guidelines do not specifically address one of the most
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7/94
"On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hair...."
Veggie Boy
> them to me?
Done! (in another thread)
- Sean Reynolds
TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com
"You think you're so smart, but I've seen you naked
I'll probably see you naked again."
- 'Blame It On Me,' BareNaked Ladies
Veggie Boy
> are there different routes (portfolio submission, etc.)?
I'll ask one of the art directors and post wehen I find out.
TSR Steve
"Of course, most publishers will at least pretend to read cold
submissions..."
Not on the planet I'm on, Terry. :)
Most book publishers will tell prospective authors to get an agent, and
*then* come see them.
Short stories are a different matter, of course, and many magazines that
publish them do look at stories submitted cold... when it's an exceedingly
slow month.
Steve Miller
TSR, Inc.
Rogers Cadenhead
: TSR won't accept manuscripts for publication unless one is a published
: writer, correct?
TSR won't look at unsolicited module, book or supplement submissions,
according to their writer's guidelines. They will, however, look at
Dungeon submissions from aspiring newcomers. That seems like the best
way to get TSR's attention other than publishing elsewhere first.
: However, placing materials on mpgn.com is considered "publishing" by
: TSR.
: So, my question is this: If I have something placed on mpgn.com, does
: this mean I am now able to submit novels, adventure manuscripts, etc.
: to TSR since I am a "published" author?
: -Drizzt (suspects TSR will try to have it both ways, but wants to see
: what legalese they try to employ to worm their way out of it)
Are you serious about submitting material to TSR? If not, I apologize
for wasting my time composing this reply.
Rogers Cadenhead
: Of course, most publishers will at least pretend to read cold
: submissions, but TSR isn't really in the novel business. Are they?
Are they? Been to a gaming store or bookstore lately? TSR publishes
several original paperbacks every month in the Forgotten Realms,
DragonLance, Mystara, Dark Sun and Birthright settings. They also
publish work that isn't related to their gaming universes.
Guy Robinson
: [...] Publishing on MPGN (or any other site) does not hinder your
: chances, but it also does not help - although good reviews from the net
: might be enough to encourage you to submit your work.
So if I was to publish on Morpheus' FTP site that would be OK with TSR?
Just checking ... [Guy prepares to type up a dungeon written in 1979]
--
Guy Robinson guy....@rx.xerox.com
[implied disclaimer]
The real meaning of Christmas is a Mid-Winter feast.
The Livewire
>Not on the planet I'm on, Terry. :)
See, and you thought the Idea that Wisconsin was another planet was stupid!!!!!
Terry Austin
>Terry Austin said:
>"Of course, most publishers will at least pretend to read cold
>submissions..."
>Not on the planet I'm on, Terry. :)
I didn't say they would take unsolicited submissions any more
seriously than TSR. Just that they would be more polite about it. As
your response proves. Haven't we been here before?
Guy Robinson
: > : [...] Publishing on MPGN (or any other site) does not hinder your
: > : chances, but it also does not help - although good reviews from the net
: > : might be enough to encourage you to submit your work.
:
: > So if I was to publish on Morpheus' FTP site that would be OK with TSR?
: If it is a "generic" story or module, yes it would be OK. If it were
: an AD&D module or story, no, it would not. :P For the purposes copyrights
: and trademarks (and boy am I sick of those two words), AD&D-related material
: can still only be posted to _licensed_ sites.
There are two issues here: what constitutes publishing and what TSR means
by "generic". Note that I am approaching such issues as a philsopher
and law-abiding UK national, not as a lawyer.
As TSR will not recognise the placing of fan material on an FTP site as being
published by it's own internal rules then it can not treat such an act as
publishing.
As long as TSR defines the material over which they are not prepared to
sue their customers over as simply "generic" then I have reasons to be
afraid of such lawsuits. Even in a country where intimidation by means
of unwarranted threats about trademarks is illegal.
Untill TSR clears these issues up I will not use a licensed site because
of the boycott and I remain unable to use any other due to the risk of
legal action over a notoriously ill-defined policy.
: > Just checking ... [Guy prepares to type up a dungeon written in 1979]
:
: You've actually kepy notes that far back?
Of course. I lived through the dawn of the hobby in the UK, my gaming
notes are as much a part of it's history as the original copies of
Bunnies and Burrows, In The Labyrinthe and the Cthulhu edition of
Deities and Demi-Gods that I possess.
The irony of TSR's policy is that I am restrained from communicating my
own original, non-derivative work (written since 1977-78) due to a policy
that was only announced in 1994!
Sean, you was/were a gamer. How can you stomach being the mouth piece
for such a company?
Larry Smith
>> Just checking ... [Guy prepares to type up a dungeon written in 1979]
> You've actually kepy notes that far back?
Doesn't _everybody_???!!!
--
Larry Smith - My opinions only. Killfile slac...@aol.com & tau...@ni.net
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence - it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left
to irresponsible action." -- G Washington lar...@zk3.dec.com Unix Systems Grp
Veggie Boy
Veggie Boy (skr...@netcom.com) wrote:
: > Sean, how about for artists? Same deal- submit to the periodicals? Or
: > are there different routes (portfolio submission, etc.)?
: I'll ask one of the art directors and post wehen I find out.
OK, I spoke to Bruce Zamjahn, Art Director, and he says that for art
submissions, all you need to send is a resume and samples of your work
(whether it is a portfolio, color photocopies, etc.). His address is:
Bruce Zamjahn
TSR, Inc.
201 Sheridan Springs Rd.
Lake Geneva, WI
53147
Veggie Boy
> as being published by it's own internal rules then it can not treat
> such an act as publishing.
As far as TSR is concerned, people fall into three categories:
1) people that have published products through TSR
2) people that have not published products through TSR, but have
published products through any publishing company
3) people that have not published products through TSR, and in fact
have not published products through any publishing company
People in the first category are the easiest to deal with. "Hi, Tony,
this is Ed. I've heard you need a Ravenloft article for Dragon #228?"
People in the second category are slightly more difficult to process:
a) "Hmmm, this Asimov guy is pretty good. Do you think we could get
him to write something for us, Brian?"
b) "Dear TSR: This is Octavia Butler, I wrote the _Xenogenesis_
trilogy, and I've been wanting to write a novel for TSR for quite some time
now."
People in the third category are what TSR deals with most often (or in
the highest volume, if you prefer), and it usually goes something like this:
"Dear TSR. My name is Guy Robinson, and I have written many AD&D
adventures for my gaming group, which have also been well-recieved on the
internet...."
People that have published through a company have shown that they can
work under a deadline and are familiar with the mechanics of getting
published. It is that experience that TSR anticipates being able to count
on in working on a project.
Now can you see why posting to an ftp site doesn't quite qualify? Who
knows how long it took you to write your work, or who helped you with it
(and did or did not get credit for it)?
> As long as TSR defines the material over which they are not prepared to
> sue their customers over as simply "generic" then I have reasons to be
> afraid of such lawsuits. Even in a country where intimidation by means
> of unwarranted threats about trademarks is illegal.
admitting to, Guy. Either that or I somehow ended up in your killfile, as I
generally explain at least once a week about the use of TSR trademarks and
copyrights, as well as the creation of "generic" material. I've also given
many examples, including a very personal example - my generic magic system,
available via my personal ftp, which is 100% AD&D compatible, yet does not
use any TSR terms and in fact can be used in several other games without
conversion being needed.
> Sean, you was/were a gamer. How can you stomach being the mouth piece
> for such a company?
Lots of patience.
- Sean Reynolds
TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com
"We now know what the Precursors built here.
It is a factory ...
A factory for building _starships_...." - Star Control II
Veggie Boy
: > You've actually kepy notes that far back?
: Doesn't _everybody_???!!!
Not on paper, only in my head....
--
Sean K Reynolds a.k.a. Veggie Boy skr...@netcom.com skr...@aol.com
"Now it's not fair to say that it's 'cause I was three inches shorter then
And it's not fair to say that it's 'cause I was only fifteen years old."
'Enid,' BareNaked Ladies
Andrew Hackard
>> Sean, you was/were a gamer. How can you stomach being the mouth piece
>> for such a company?
>
> Lots of hot California salsa. A good sense of humor. A thick skin.
>Lots of patience.
Hot California salsa? Surely you jest.
The best salsa is homemade, here in Texas. I shudder to think what prissy
Californians consider "hot" ("Oh, Buffy, my mouth went up a degree! Whoo,
whoo, hot!").
Oh, and BTW: ;-)
--
You think I'm gonna tell you what to think? What it means? No. The goal is to
provoke discussion. Preferably passionate discussion. Otherwise I might as
well just start renting billboards and putting up signs....A good story should
provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight. --jms
Veggie Boy
> this generic and AD&D-related distinction that you're talking about.
> Joel (Aardy) has informed us that you were trying to get most AD&D
> terminology to be okayed for public use (as generic terminology, since
> most AD&D terminology is used in other game systems). What ever became
> of this?
Joel was kind enough to email me the list of terms and the games they
were used in, and I promptly printed it and gave it to Connie. She's at a
conference on the internet until Monday, so I won't be hearing from her
until then at the earliest.
The simplest rule I can say for AD&D vs. generic as far as game
supplements go:
Does it use TSR trademarks, copryrighted text or art, TSR-created
monsters, characters, or spells? If so, it's an AD&D supplement. If not,
it's probably generic. Most of the game rules are "invisible" in that you
don't need to mentioned in a module (for example, you don't have to describe
how a warrior's to-hit ability, based on a d20 roll vs the target's AC,
improves by 1 point per level until it peaks at level 20), so you don't have
to worry about that.
For instance: if your adventure has a party encounter a band of goblins
(each HP 4) and an ogre leader (hp 20), and the monsters leap to attack as
soon as the PC's are spotted, you don't have to describe the rules for
combat, do you? No - you just say "they'll attack" and assume the GM has a
clue as to how to run combat in their game system. That way, you completely
avoid the whole TSR/not TSR problem, and also avoid alienating anybody that
uses a game system with different combat rules.
For stories, it's pretty much the same. If you use TSR settings,
spells, monsters, or characters, you're writing an AD&D story. If not,
you're probably not. It's actually easier to make a generic story than to
make a generic game supplement - the rules of the AD&D game are even more
invisible in the novels than they are in the supplements. Don't use TSR
names (don't set a story in Waterdeep or Palanthas). Wizard spells are
usually described by their effects, not by spell name (how many spells can
you actualy identify of Raistlin's in the Chronicles trilogy?). Combat is
described, rather than rolled. Monsters are often only partially seen, and
often the characters don't even know what they were.
One thing that I'd like to point out is that if you do write a story or
module that you think is generic, but someone at TSR thinks it may not be,
we're not going to launch the lawyer-bomb at you (unless you use colorful
metaphors at us and refuse to act like civilized human beings). There have
been several people on the net and in email asking me to check their sites
or netbooks for TSR material, and I have been happy to comply (if I have the
time). If I do find something that needs to be removed, I say it - "This is
a problem, this needs to be removed or changed." And they do. End of
problem.
> Also, I sent a query off to your legal department as to this issue.
> I would like to know if Connie has gotten it yet? How soon should
> I expect a reply?
I believe she did get your letter (the first one to address the issue
in a rational manner, I believe). As for her timeline, I don't know, for
the above reasons. :(
Veggie Boy
: Hot California salsa? Surely you jest.
You obviously haven't been to my part of California. ;)
: The best salsa is homemade, here in Texas. I shudder to think what prissy
: Californians consider "hot" ("Oh, Buffy, my mouth went up a degree! Whoo,
: whoo, hot!").
Oh, I dunno ... I think you Texans get the prize for chili, but when you
live as close to the border as I do (er, did), you find out what _real_
salsa is (not that I haven't met people like Biff and Buffy...).
: Oh, and BTW: ;-)
Yeah, I caught that. :)
--
Sean K Reynolds a.k.a. Veggie Boy skr...@netcom.com skr...@aol.com
"I've seen knights panic at the first sign of battle,
And I've seen the lowliest squire pull a spear from his own body
To defend a dying horse." - Robin of Locksley
Guy Robinson
: > As TSR will not recognise the placing of fan material on an FTP site
Now I can see how TSR seeks to distinguish between publishing and FTP sites.
The problem is that this distinction does not distinguish between two types
of writer - the would-be professional and the fan writer. Both use FTP
sites in differing ways.
The fan writer seeks to communicate about his hobbies and the writings and
experiences were generated from these hobbies. He uses FTP sites to
communicate the written works that inevitably are create during the legal
playing of a game of Dungeons and Dragons.
The would-be professional writer uses an FTP site to distribute samples
of his work for free to demonstrate that he can do what other writers can
not - produce complete works. He is simply using a new medium.
To be blind to the second type of writer is a uncommendable especially
as TSR defines FTP as publishing apparently in order to gag the fan
writer. TSR risks missing the equivalent of the next Asimov.
If FTP is not publishing then say so and allow fan writers to escape the
confines of the MPGN site that are maintained by threat of legal action.
: > As long as TSR defines the material over which they are not prepared to
: > sue their customers over as simply "generic" then I have reasons to be
: > afraid of such lawsuits. Even in a country where intimidation by means
: > of unwarranted threats about trademarks is illegal.
:
: I believe that "generic" material has been better defined than you are
: admitting to, Guy. Either that or I somehow ended up in your killfile, as I
: generally explain at least once a week about the use of TSR trademarks and
: copyrights, as well as the creation of "generic" material. I've also given
: many examples, including a very personal example - my generic magic system,
: available via my personal ftp, which is 100% AD&D compatible, yet does not
: use any TSR terms and in fact can be used in several other games without
: conversion being needed.
The problem is that you are offering annecdotal definitions. I can not
release anything unless I know that TSR will not sue me. I need solid,
stable rules to wash away that reasonable fear.
If TSR has a legal justification I would be happier to have this explained
to me so I could research the case law myself. This could be done with
confidence as TSR claims to have a rock-solid legal case in which I could
not find any flaws in unless the US laws are rewritten.
: > Sean, you was/were a gamer. How can you stomach being the mouth piece
: > for such a company?
:
: Lots of hot California salsa. A good sense of humor. A thick skin.
: Lots of patience.
I knew that TSR legal is pretty impolite ("Hero-Wizards" and all that)
but I am glad that you have enough salsa to cope :-)
Guy Robinson
: > To be blind to the second type of writer is a uncommendable especially
: > as TSR defines FTP as publishing apparently in order to gag the fan
: > writer. TSR risks missing the equivalent of the next Asimov.
: But TSR isn't rejecting ftp - it's only trying to control works that
: use its properties. True, most people who write fan fiction only do it for
: fun, and not as an attempt at a writing career, but writing fan fiction with
: someone else's property is still illegal in the eyes of the law, yes? How
: tolerant is Paramount of Star Trek fan fiction? Or the people that make
: Babylon 5?
Star Trek and Babylon 5 is very different from D&D, AD&D and AD&D2. I
purchased from TSR books so I could write gaming material: adventures,
characters, new monster and new classes.
I don't want to share fan fiction. I want to share the works that I
legally created over a period of 17 years in a manner explicitly
encouraged by the AD&D1 DMG only to blocked by an announcement as
late as 1994.
TSR has yet to prove that the control it is seeking is justified.
: > The problem is that you are offering anecdotal definitions. I can not
: > release anything unless I know that TSR will not sue me. I need solid,
: > stable rules to wash away that reasonable fear.
:
: The two easiest solid & stable rules are: if you don't want to post to
: a licensed site, don't use TSR trademarks and don't use TSR copyrighted
: items (characters, locales, monsters, spells, magic items).
I do not want to confuse people or misrepresent myself with TSR trademarks.
I do not want to copy TSR copyright text.
I just want to be able to reference the TSR rule books I purchased to use in
my writings that I have created for or during a game of D&D. If I can
legally do this then I can take some of the strain off your "licensed"
site and place it on a site with better anonymous FTP site access.
: Even if you accidentally included somthing in the above restricted
: list, TSR isn't going to bomb your house with draconian lawyers - step 1 is
: to point out the problem parts and ask you to fix them. "See, in this
: chapter, the hero met a golden-skinned sickly maged named Raistlin. Would
: you change him a bit so he's not like our Raistlin character, which we have
: a copyright on?"
I accept and understand customer copyright and I am prepared to comply with
this. This is a red herring.
However I appreciate that you would say what the problem is first. But
would you address this complaint to me directly or to the provider of
the FTP site who might be more inclined to panic?
:
: Why are you so against the licensed sites?
For a start I can only access one site and I not against them I am simply
boycotting them untill TSR works with an intellectual property that I
recognise as being legal.
: You don't lose anything by
: posting there - in fact, you are protected (as the disclaimer keeps anyone
: from copying your work elsewhere except for you), and the "if contains or is
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: derived from..." part only makes sure that both parties involved (TSR and
^^^^^^^^^^^^
: you) are aware of the property rights involved.
For a start the disclaimer appears to have changed again. It appears that
you are actually uing the word derived in it's copyright sense rather than
suggesting that it means "based on".
Could you please tell me the current disclaimer?
If you are using derivation in the copyright sense of the word could does
this mean that I can actually reference your rule books in files stored
outside of MPGN?
: TSR _does_ own the world
: called the "Forgotten Realms." You _do_ own everything in your story that
: you created yourself. Acknowledging that "Forgotten Realms" is owned by TSR
: doesn't hurt you.
Due to character copyright I am prepared to acknowlege that TSR owns the
"Forgotten Realms". If I was to write about a TSR property like the
"Forgotten Realms", mention a sufficiently distinctive character owned by
TSR or derive, in the copyright sense, a work from a TSR rulebook then
I would be happy to use the MPGN source book.
I instead I wish to use the D&D rule books solely in a referential
manner with my own background and characters that deviates by at least
95% from the TSR rule books that I have used. I am prepared to also
acknowledge trademarks and use them correctly so confusion is avoided.
:
: > If TSR has a legal justification I would be happier to have this explained
: > to me so I could research the case law myself. This could be done with
: > confidence as TSR claims to have a rock-solid legal case in which I could
: > not find any flaws in unless the US laws are rewritten.
:
: If you want legal evidence, you should write to Connie. I'm not
: qualified to relay that sort of info.
By what media can Connie be contacted through?
:
: > I knew that TSR legal is pretty impolite ("Hero-Wizards" and all that)
: > but I am glad that you have enough salsa to cope :-)
:
: I miss my California salsa .... ::sniff::
If I move to somewhere in America I would probably miss Marmite, a UK
yeast spread, the most ...
Anyway in summary TSR seems that willing to slowly shift it's policy
towards a more sensible position. Ideally the perfect position should
recognisable as legal with the minimal legal knowledge and not cause
the shock that it current does when people discover that TSR seems to
believe that it hold the copyright over some specific words.
Guy Robinson
[...]
: [...] Unrtil this does get in front of
: a judge, there is NO case law to research that directly applies. This
: is all new.
This is where you and TSR deviate. TSR appears to believe that their
case is concrete untill "the laws are rewritten".
This is also where you and I deviate. There is some case law on this
issue.
Cook Thomas W
Distribution:
Veggie Boy (skr...@netcom.com) wrote:
: But TSR isn't rejecting ftp - it's only trying to control works that
: use its properties. True, most people who write fan fiction only do
: it for fun, and not as an attempt at a writing career, but writing fan
: fiction with someone else's property is still illegal in the eyes of
: the law, yes? How tolerant is Paramount of Star Trek fan fiction? Or
: the people that make Babylon 5?
Last time I checked, there was at least one entire newsgroup devoted to
Star Trek fan fictive <?.startrek.creative>. In fact many programs have
entire newsgroups devoted to fan fiction (search ".creative"). I hope this
answers your rhetorical question.
Thomas.
kuril...@ftsys1.llnl.gov
.
> 3) people that have not published products through TSR, and in fact
> have not published products through any publishing company
.
> People in the third category are what TSR deals with most often (or in
> the highest volume, if you prefer), and it usually goes something like this:
> "Dear TSR. My name is Guy Robinson, and I have written many AD&D
> adventures for my gaming group, which have also been well-recieved on the
> internet...."
>
> People that have published through a company have shown that they can
> work under a deadline and are familiar with the mechanics of getting
> published. It is that experience that TSR anticipates being able to count
> on in working on a project.
> Now can you see why posting to an ftp site doesn't quite qualify? Who
> knows how long it took you to write your work, or who helped you with it
> (and did or did not get credit for it)?
If the work is already completed, who cares how long it took? As long as TSR
is paying for a product, and not by the hour, then why does it matter how
long it took the writer to complete the work?
Why must everything have a `deadline'? Could this be the reason why so many
TSR products appear rushed, and are full of typos and inconsistencies?
Perhaps TSR could start a new policy where a product is released when it is
completed. (i.e., has been run through a spell-checker, has been checked for
misleading typos, and has been checked for consistency (internal and with
other products))
It would be a welcome change...
- Thomas
Kuril...@ftsd.LLNL.gov
Aardy R. DeVarque
>Veggie Boy (skr...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: How
>: tolerant is Paramount of Star Trek fan fiction? Or the people that make
>: Babylon 5?
Actually, very tolerant (probably due mostly to the difficulty and bad
PR in eradicating and preventing it). It's the posting of movie
scripts for Generations that ticks Paramount off. Marvel doesn't mind
too much when fanfic writers use their *trademarked* (let alone
copyrighted) characters over on rec.arts.comics.fan.fiction. And
IIRC, the B5 people are tickled pink that people like their show so
much that they write fanfic about it-- Imitation is the sincerest form
of flattery, and all that.
>: The two easiest solid & stable rules are: if you don't want to post to
>: a licensed site, don't use TSR trademarks and don't use TSR copyrighted
>: items (characters, locales, monsters, spells, magic items).
>Sean, tell me this. Am I allowed to say in an adventure I am writing for
>free distribution over the Internet: "This adventure is compatible with
>AD&D. AD&D is a registered trademark of TSR, and its use here is not
>intended as a challenge to that trademark."?
Sean is correct here. If you want to be *100%*guaranteed* to not get
into any TM or C difficulties, follow Sean's advice. That doesn't
mean that that's the limit on what is perfectly legal to use, as you
pointed out, there are situations where TMs can be used without any
difficulty, but this is an easily followed guideline, especially for
people who aren't as knowledgeable about IP law as some of the posters
here, you have to admit.
>I have one other question also, which I've been asking for over a month
>now. If we steer clear of TSR-published characters, locales, monsters,
>spells, and magic items... can we then create and freely distribute our
>own using AD&D-terminology?
This is what I'm trying to accomplish with the whole "generic terms"
thread. A few of the terms associated with "AD&D terminology" have
been declared "generic" by TSR for use with the "generic items, etc."
section of their Internet Copyright Policy Statement, and a looong
list of other terms is currently being looked over by Connie. When
she responds, we'll know more.
In this way, TSR will be happy, because the Policy Statement will
remain intact, and the net.gaming. community will be happy, because
(most of the) AD&D terminology will be freely useable. It's a win-win
situation...IF enough terms with similar associated values can be
located in non-TSR products--so start a-looking through all those
non-TSR games on your shelves! (Especially MERP & GURPS; haven't heard
much from those two games yet)
>: Even if you accidentally included somthing in the above restricted
>: list, TSR isn't going to bomb your house with draconian lawyers - step 1 is
>: to point out the problem parts and ask you to fix them. "See, in this
>: chapter, the hero met a golden-skinned sickly maged named Raistlin. Would
>: you change him a bit so he's not like our Raistlin character, which we have
>: a copyright on?"
>Sean, please stop generating examples which have nothing to do with
>what we've been talking about. Nobody here wants to copy Raistlin as their
>own. I defy you to name one individual in this entire discussion who
>has argued for the right to use TSR-published characters in this manner.
I can name one: Jeff K.
>Our arguments have been chiefly concerning the use of trademarks (so long
>as they are properly attributed) and the use of AD&D-terminology, which
>I personally don't believe is copyrightable to any meaningful extent.
For the record, I agree re: the use of properly used and attributed
TM's, and any positions on the use of terminology may become moot in
the near future anyway, leaving both sides to differ on *why* they can
be used, which is a "so what?" issue if the end result is that they
can be used.
>: Why are you so against the licensed sites?
>We aren't against the sites, per se.
>We are against the so-called disclaimer that your lawyer has designed.
>We believe we are being asked to sacrifice our rights to distribute
>our own work freely on the Internet. We believe that AD&D-compatible
>works using AD&D-terminology and making use of properly attributed
>AD&D-trademarks (in a circumspect manner) can be legally distributed
>without the need of licensed sites.
I'm still unsure of whether or not works which are explicitly set in
and tied to TSR-published game worlds (rather than saying "a good
place to set this in FR would be in northern Cormyr, in GH would be
the eastern border of Perrenland, in DL would be the south coast of
the island of Taladas," etc.) are merely AD&D-compatible; I still lean
towards these works (modules, fiction, etc.) most likely requiring the
disclaimer and being limited to licensed sites. But otherwise, I
agree that AD&D-compatible material should be freely distributable.
And if enough terms are okayed, then it *will* be freely
distributable, just for a different reason. End result is the same.
(note to TSR--if there were a huge network of mirror sites, as there
is for DOOM for example, then there wouldn't be as much of an argument
about "limiting" distribution, as it wouldn't be very limited at all,
and... but that's a whole 'nother topic)
Aardy R. DeVarque
Feudalism: Serf & Turf
I really don't want to get back into the same ol' arguments again so
soon...
Deanna Hatter
: Why must everything have a `deadline'? Could this be the reason why so many
: TSR products appear rushed, and are full of typos and inconsistencies?
: Perhaps TSR could start a new policy where a product is released when it is
: completed. (i.e., has been run through a spell-checker, has been checked for
: misleading typos, and has been checked for consistency (internal and with
: other products))
: It would be a welcome change...
How would you advertise said product? If you don't know when (or IF)
it's going to be completed, it's bad business practice to take
pre-orders. Especially if the product never appears. Then you'd have
to refund all that money, which would put a crunch on the budget...
Jason
kuril...@ftsys1.llnl.gov
Simple. In the stated case where a product is delivered by an outside person,
it's already completed when TSR gets it. Why does TSR have to know a production
schedule a year in advance? Insisting on knowing every detail about production
a year in advance is (part of) what keeps them from being responsive to their
customers' needs. What we get instead is driven by their marketing department.
A department that feels that everything produced must appeal to 12-16 year olds,
and must not offend their parents' religious beliefs.
- Thomas
Kuril...@ftsd.LLNL.gov
Veggie Boy
> freely usable. If you want to keep this issue from getting to court, then
> it would be to your advantage to get this sort of compromise hammered out
> as soon as possible.
Like I said before, just because you feel this way doesn't make it correct.
> First of all, what you are talking about here has more to do with character
> copyrights than trademarks. Regardless, your "disclaimer" on MPGN does not
> make the distinction which you are advocating here, and until it does,
> your words can only be viewed as double-talk.
You won't believe me, but no double-talk is intended.
> : Your personal beliefs as a non-lawyer have no bearing on this issue,
> : any more than my beliefs as a chemist have any bearing on the Pope's
> : stance on birth control.
> I disagree. I don't think you have to be a lawyer to know some law.
> I'm sure it helps, and if you're lawyer wasn't saying the opposite
> of what every other lawyer we've consulted with has said, then I might
> be more inclined to take her opinion.
OK, it isn't necessary to _be_ a lwayer to _understand_ this issue,
but your _opinion_ as a non-lawyer has no influence on any potential legal
judgement.
> [my magic system]
> You know, I've tried getting this via ftp. Could you do me a favor and
> email me or post a copy?
Will do, as soon as I finish the news, here....
> : Do you believe me now?
> I'll believe you when I get an okay on the Giant Chicken example and
> perhaps a few other similar ones.
Once I get an answer back from Connie about "generic" terms, I'll
post it.
> You guys may actually want to adopt FASA's disclaimer, or perhaps SJG's.
> At least those haven't attracted the sort of criticism TSR's has.
They also don't get the bad press that TSR does for their games.
Ever notice that there is a group called "Bothered About Dungeons and
Dragons" (BADD) but not a "Bothered About Earthdawn" or "Bothered About
GURPS"? It's not because of the awkward acronyms, either.
> Just insist that if people write works which are borderline, then they
> can only distribute them for free. That would probably protect you to
> a fair degree. Just call it a special pact between TSR and its "friends
> on the net". That would be the ideal win-win scenario. You'd be protected,
> you'd benefit from an active grassroots community... why the heck aren't
> you people doing this?
A "fair" degree is still to easily exploted. TSR is a big company as
these things go, and being able to exploit a TSR trademark just a little
bit means a lot of money in the pockets of whoever is doing it.
- Sean Reynolds
TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com
T$R just might be in my killfile. Don't write to my
personal email - it will be ignored; do I go to your
house and ask for a Big Mac?
B
"This name is the hairshirt I wear, and this hairshirt is woven from
Your brown hair. This song is the cross that I bear, bear it with me,
bear with me, bear with me, be with me tonight? I know that it isn't
right ... but be with me tonight."
'What a Good Boy,' BareNaked Ladies
Veggie Boy
> purchased from TSR books so I could write gaming material: adventures,
> characters, new monster and new classes.
etc.?
> I don't want to share fan fiction. I want to share the works that I
> legally created over a period of 17 years in a manner explicitly
> encouraged by the AD&D1 DMG only to blocked by an announcement as
> late as 1994.
the people you game with. It _never_ encouraged anyone to _publish_ AD&D
works on their own.
> I do not want to confuse people or misrepresent myself with TSR
trademarks.
> I do not want to copy TSR copyright text.
> I just want to be able to reference the TSR rule books I purchased to
use in
> my writings that I have created for or during a game of D&D. If I can
> legally do this then I can take some of the strain off your "licensed"
> site and place it on a site with better anonymous FTP site access.
> However I appreciate that you would say what the problem is first. But
> would you address this complaint to me directly or to the provider of
> the FTP site who might be more inclined to panic?
worsened by sending the legal mail directly to the sites - the net, while
still being an anarchy, is a self-regulating anarchy - I would not have
handled it that way. If we could not work out the situation between us,
Guy, then I would have to turn to the ftp host. :(
> : You don't lose anything by
> : posting there - in fact, you are protected (as the disclaimer keepsanyone
> : from copying your work elsewhere except for you), and the "if contains or is
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> : derived from..." part only makes sure that both parties involved (TSR and
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> : you) are aware of the property rights involved.
> For a start the disclaimer appears to have changed again. It appears that
> you are actually uing the word derived in it's copyright sense rather than
> suggesting that it means "based on".
> Could you please tell me the current disclaimer?
around for 2-3 months or so. Some of the older MPGN stuff may still have
the old one, though.
This item is published by MPG-Net under license from TSR, Inc.
("TSR") but is not authorized or endorsed by TSR. The item is
for personal use only. If the item is based on or derived from
copyrighted material of TSR or contains trademarks of TSR, it
cannot
be re-published or distributed except by the author and only as
authorized by TSR, Inc.
Hmmm, looks like I misquoted a bit before. Hmmm. Well, it has to be
changed anyway, as "contains trademarks of" needs to be changed to "uses
trademarks of," as well as being made non-MPGN-specific (so we'd have the
same disclaimer on all sites) and revised to allow moving between sites
and mirroring (yes, while it is tradition on the net that you upload
something somewhere, a copy can be placed on the site's mirror, Connie
wants to cover all bases on this). So I'll flag that line for revision as
well. Sorry for any confusion. :(
> If you are using derivation in the copyright sense of the word could does
> this mean that I can actually reference your rule books in files stored
> outside of MPGN?
I'll ask Connie about that specifically.
> I instead I wish to use the D&D rule books solely in a referential
> manner with my own background and characters that deviates by at least
> 95% from the TSR rule books that I have used. I am prepared to also
> acknowledge trademarks and use them correctly so confusion is avoided.
That way, nothing gets lost between my reading it here and my telling it
to her.
> By what media can Connie be contacted through?
For clarifications on the policy, you can just email me and I'll forward
it to her. Here's the snail mail address:
TSR, Inc.
201 Sheridan Springs Rd.
Lake Geneva, WI
53147
> yeast spread, the most ...
talk, but that sounds _really_ strange. What does it taste like?
> Anyway in summary TSR seems that willing to slowly shift it's policy
> towards a more sensible position.
My own initial ignorance of the situation made me realize that part of
the problem was misinformation about what the policy _was_ (admittedly,
Rob wasn't very talkative, being the strong, silent type).
> Ideally the perfect position should
> recognisable as legal with the minimal legal knowledge and not cause
> the shock that it current does when people discover that TSR seems to
> believe that it hold the copyright over some specific words.
least have a non-legalese version of the policy. Also, Jim and are are
working on a FAQ about this whole topic. :P
Guy Robinson
: ji...@cs.ucr.edu (james vassilakos) wrote:
[...]
: >Sean, please stop generating examples which have nothing to do with
: >what we've been talking about. Nobody here wants to copy Raistlin as their
: >own. I defy you to name one individual in this entire discussion who
: >has argued for the right to use TSR-published characters in this manner.
: I can name one: Jeff K.
I can think of a couple of others.
There was a passionate customer of TSR who complained about the Convention
of Tolerance because he was not able to play any games of AD&D and so
writing actual fiction that contained TSR material covered by their
distinctive character copyrights was the only way he could participate.
He felt bitterly about not being to write about the Forbidden Realms.
In someways we should not be dividing lines. There a number of people
who share both a deep respect for actual, existing intellectual
property laws and a dislike of TSR's activities that appear to misuse,
and therefore weaken, these valuable laws.
The opinions of these people vary.
I, for example, whole-heartedly support the use of character copyrights
for sufficently distinctive characters and locations that are sold as
backgrounds for use with the a set of xD&D rules.
However I do not accept that all creatures, spells and classes with
all sets of xD&D rules (Cyclopedia or PHB, DMG & MM) are sufficiently
distinctive to be warranted such protection.
In fact as these creatures, spells and classes where sold to be
integrated with a GM's own original creations I find it difficult to
believe that TSR is now, as late as 1994, seeking to use them as an
excuse to control and censor such original works.
For all TSR might say, if the individual people who make up the net
can not understand TSR's stance, find it diagreeable or consider
it to be illegal then TSR can not expect their policy to be
successfull.
Are TSR expecting each and every customer to resort to confronting
them in court before they are told by TSR precisely what their legal
justification is?
james vassilakos
: > Like I said before, I don't think a term has to be generic in order to be
: > freely usable. If you want to keep this issue from getting to court, then
: > it would be to your advantage to get this sort of compromise hammered out
: > as soon as possible.
: Like I said before, just because you feel this way doesn't make it correct.
Obviously, that's why I'm interested in persuing the issue before a judge
in the event that we can't hammer-out a reasonable compromise.
: > First of all, what you are talking about here has more to do with character
: > copyrights than trademarks. Regardless, your "disclaimer" on MPGN does not
: > make the distinction which you are advocating here, and until it does,
: > your words can only be viewed as double-talk.
: You won't believe me, but no double-talk is intended.
Then fix the disclaimer.
: > : Your personal beliefs as a non-lawyer have no bearing on this issue,
: > : any more than my beliefs as a chemist have any bearing on the Pope's
: > : stance on birth control.
: > I disagree. I don't think you have to be a lawyer to know some law.
: > I'm sure it helps, and if you're lawyer wasn't saying the opposite
: > of what every other lawyer we've consulted with has said, then I might
: > be more inclined to take her opinion.
: OK, it isn't necessary to _be_ a lwayer to _understand_ this issue,
: but your _opinion_ as a non-lawyer has no influence on any potential legal
: judgement.
If we ever end up in court, I'll bring along a lawyer along to make
my arguments with as much legalese as neccessary. Fair enough?
: > [my magic system]
: > You know, I've tried getting this via ftp. Could you do me a favor and
: > email me or post a copy?
: Will do, as soon as I finish the news, here....
Got it, thanks. My comment, after a very cursory skimming, is that while
your magic system might be able to be used with AD&D with considerable
effort, it is not a supplement which I would say is intended for use
with AD&D. What we are looking for are the rights to publish our own
monsters, spells, magic items, character classes, and so forth,
specifically for use with the AD&D game system, and that entails
either using AD&D-terminology or using terminology for which there
is an obvious 1:1 translation. Your magic system doesn't do this,
so while it may be an example of a generic gaming supplement, it does
not address the issue which we want resolved.
: > : Do you believe me now?
: > I'll believe you when I get an okay on the Giant Chicken example and
: > perhaps a few other similar ones.
:
: Once I get an answer back from Connie about "generic" terms, I'll
: post it.
Great. Please try to get her to be as detailed as possible. We'd like
a actual list of AD&D terms which TSR agrees its fans can use freely.
: > You guys may actually want to adopt FASA's disclaimer, or perhaps SJG's.
: > At least those haven't attracted the sort of criticism TSR's has.
: They also don't get the bad press that TSR does for their games.
: Ever notice that there is a group called "Bothered About Dungeons and
: Dragons" (BADD) but not a "Bothered About Earthdawn" or "Bothered About
: GURPS"? It's not because of the awkward acronyms, either.
Are you so sure?
"Hi, we're from BAGURPS."
"You say you want URP BAGS?" (collapse to floor in a fit of giggles)
"No, we're from... oh, nevermind."
: > Just insist that if people write works which are borderline, then they
: > can only distribute them for free. That would probably protect you to
: > a fair degree. Just call it a special pact between TSR and its "friends
: > on the net". That would be the ideal win-win scenario. You'd be protected,
: > you'd benefit from an active grassroots community... why the heck aren't
: > you people doing this?
: A "fair" degree is still to easily exploted. TSR is a big company as
: these things go, and being able to exploit a TSR trademark just a little
: bit means a lot of money in the pockets of whoever is doing it.
Not if you make sure your "open-license" only applies to non-profit
publications such as those that are produced over the Internet.
This is what Chaosium is doing. SJG's is doing it also, but is
more restrictive about software.
If you clamp down 100%, you end up killing the grassroots community that
got AD&D so popular in the first place, and the end result is that we
will probably eventually end up in court, and in all likelihood (assuming
my understanding of the law isn't totally off-base), TSR will end up
losing more than what we are asking for.
Don't grasp for rights you can't realistically hold on to. If you really
think you're right, then let me know that you are willing to settle this
in court via an enjoinment for injunction, and we'll start moving in that
direction in terms of getting a specific fan-authored module ready as the
actual test-case.
The Amorphous Mass
> > I do not want to confuse people or misrepresent myself with TSR
> trademarks.
> > I do not want to copy TSR copyright text.
> > I just want to be able to reference the TSR rule books I purchased to
> use in
> > my writings that I have created for or during a game of D&D. If I can
> > legally do this then I can take some of the strain off your "licensed"
> > site and place it on a site with better anonymous FTP site access.
>
> OK, in what sort of way would you want to reference these things?
In the standard way books, articles and papers are referenced? A note
containing Title, Author, Publisher, Publication Date, Printing, Chapter,
Section and/or Page Number, etc. If the net.work _refers_ the reader to
TSR-published material to get TSR-published rules/spells/what-have-you,
and if the reference correctly attributes the published material to Joe
Game Designer of TSR Inc, *AND* the net.work contains a notice that the
material contained therein is *not* to be profited from, then where is
your problem? Perhaps an adaptation of the GNU Public License is in
order, as was suggested some months ago.
> This item is published by MPG-Net under license from TSR, Inc.
> ("TSR") but is not authorized or endorsed by TSR. The item is
> for personal use only. If the item is based on or derived from
> copyrighted material of TSR or contains trademarks of TSR, it
> cannot be re-published or distributed except by the author and
> only as authorized by TSR, Inc.
>
> Hmmm, looks like I misquoted a bit before. Hmmm. Well, it has to be
> changed anyway, as "contains trademarks of" needs to be changed to "uses
> trademarks of,"
and "uses trademarks of TSR" needs to be further clarified to distinguish
between "uses trademarks of TSR as references to TSR products, services
or product lines" -- which is a sensible and correct use of trademarked
terms, and "uses trademarks of TSR in a way that confuses or challenges
ownership of the trademarked products, services or product lines" which
is not.
Furthermore, that "if" doesn't sit well with me. Although it
effectively voids the disclaimer where the disclaimer is inappropriate,
there is no way to tell when the disclaimer is inappropriate --
especially since it is prepended to everything (or nearly everything)
uploaded to MPGN.com. Hence, the cautious uploader will go by the
assumption that their work is somehow inappropriate, and the effect of
the disclaimer will be global and absolute, even if the literal wording
is not. I would prefer a more selective application of an absolute
disclaimer to a global application of a self-selective disclaimer.
___________
Bushido, n.: the ancient art of keeping your | James Robinson
cool when a US President ralphs in your lap. | james-f-...@uiowa.edu
Terry Austin
>1) How does TSR know it's already done? You might *say* so, but since
>they don't take blind submissions, only query letters, they won't know
>until they accept the manuscript to look over.
That was exactly my point. If TSR took blind submissions, they could
see whether or not it was done by reading it.
>2) How many products are there that editors decide don't need a
>rewrite or three before they are publishable? If the person took four
>years to get the first final draft done, then submitted it, what's to
>say it won't take them another four years if they are asked to do a
>rewrite? Of course, the rewrite work could just be given to a staff
>writer to do, but then the original author has bad feelings about
>people "messing around" with his work.
This is a much tougher question. Rewrites can take longer than the
original work, and can completely change the overall flavor of the
work. They could send it back with a few notes on why it was
rejected, and perhaps suggestions on how to change it so it would be
accepted. But then, they're doing the same kind of labor intensive
editing the magazine editors do.
I guess they feel the chances of a high quality blind submission are
too low to be worth the time it would take to find it.
Ken Arromdee
>> However, these particular rules aren't in accordance with the law.
>> It is not illegal to use TSR trademarks. Heck, "TSR" is a TSR
>> trademark; I'm using it in this article. My article's not illegal,
>> though.
> Go back and read the many posts I've made about "using" vs.
>"referring to" a TSR trademark.
I know what you're saying. You are saying that referring to TSR trademarks
is not what you mean by "use".
I also know that the disclaimer, itself, doesn't say "referring to TSR
trademarks is not what we mean by 'use'". In fact, the disclaimer doesn't
give any definition for "use" at all.
If the disclaimer said that, your distinction would be relevant. But the
disclaimer doesn't say that. You can say "referring to a trademark isn't
use" as much as you want and TSR can still decide later on that it's use
anyway, and start restricting the distribution of material that refers to
TSR trademarks and has the disclaimer on it.
--
Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
"How can you be so evil, Kayura?"
"The pay is good and there's lots of room for advancement." -Ronin Warriors #34
Brian Trosko
: > Until it is willing to do so, so that we can analyze it in detail,
: > please don't start a debate which you aren't allowed to contribute to.
:
: Aren't allowed, or aren't qualified?
Aren't allowed. You don't know us, and you don't know our
qualifications. I'd suggest that some people, such as Larry Smith,
who have done intensive research into the legal issues involved, as
qualified to comment on it. For all TSR knows, several of the people
commenting in this group might very well be lawyers, or even lawyers
specializing in copyright dispute.
But all that's irrelevant, because no matter what the merits of the
arguments given here are, TSR blows them off, because this "isn't a
legal forum."
I'd that that qualifies as "not allowed."
: I'm involved in this debate no
: matter what I do, Jim. If I answer, I get nitpicked. If I don't, then
: I'm TSR's mouthpiece which ignores the company's customers. Hmmm, maybe
: there's an adventure idea in this somewhere.
Well, you could also take the moral high ground and resign your
postition, due to its being ethically unacceptable to you. Naahh...
: That has also been dealt with in another thread. Don't use
: trademarks ("This adventure takes place in the city of Waterdeep in the
: Forgotten Realms"), just _refer_ to them ("This adventure takes place in a
: large port city; a good location would be Waterdeep of the Forgotten
: Realms"). The latter, if properly attributed, is a legal reference.
First off, this may have been dealt with in another thread, but
perhaps many of us didn't see it. If TSR is changing a given policy,
then why isn't TSR making very sure this information gets out there?
Why doesn't TSR put together a document citing examples of what is
does and does not consider to be acceptable use? For instance, your
example above could be one of many, all straight from the mouthpiece
of TSR, and collated in one large, specific, easily obtainable
document. At the least, it would prevent us from having to thrash out
the same garbage over and over and over again.
Secondly, I'd still disagree with your example. If I write a story
about a guy who writes short stories, and happen to mention the fact
that he uses Wordperfect(tm) 6.0 on his Intel(r) Pentium(tm) computer,
and I legally acknowledge those trademarks, that doesn't mean that
Intel and Wordperfect suddenly gain distribution rights over my story.
: Your personal beliefs as a non-lawyer have no bearing on this issue,
: any more than my beliefs as a chemist have any bearing on the Pope's
: stance on birth control.
Of course, my personal beliefs in the US Code on the subject might
have a bit more bearing than this. Oh, wait, the USC is irrelevant,
since this isn't a legal forum.
: It's _not_ your work. If it _uses_ TSR properties, TSR owns
: part of it,
Pardon my bluntness, but that's bullshit. By that logic, if I write a
screenplay where the lead character happens to drive a Ford Mustang,
then Ford gets to decide who I distribute my story.
Heck, I guess that means Jack Vance should get a say as to which hobby
stores get to sell the DMG, since he created ioun stones.
Do you really not see how absurd that statement is, or are you being
paid to piss on us and tell us that it's rain?
: Again, the net-community is not a legal forum, and so their beliefs
: don't make law. As upsetting as this might be, you have to realize that.
And the legal opinions of TSR's paid lawyers don't make the law,
either. Congress does. As upsetting as this might be, you've got to
realize that.
: > and what's more, we are interested
: > in taking the issue to court to prove that we are right, if necessary.
:
: If you are so convinced that you are right, why don't you?
Well, it seems there's this little issue of required funds. Would you
be willing to pass the hat around at Lake Geneva and see what you can
donate to the Cause?
: > Sean, please, just wake up to the fact that we don't believe you.
: > It is possible to create an AD&D-compatible work which makes use
: > of properly attributed TSR-trademarks.
:
: I'm not denying that at all. In fact, take my wonderful magic
: system, for example. Currently, it is 100% AD&D compatible, but uses no
: TSR trademarks. If I added a section on what magical skill levels for
: different kinds of priests, and made notes such as "a priest of a magic
: god would have skills X, Y, and Z; a good example is the Forgotten Realms
: goddess Mystra," then my work would be 100% compatible and would refer to
: TSR trademarks (I'd have to add that "Forgotten Realms" is a trademark of
: TSR, Inc., and probably also that Mystra is a character whose likeness is
: owned by TSR, Inc.).
: Do you believe me now?
You seem to be intentionally missing the point. He's saying that it's
possible to write an adventure where an NPC mage has the spell
"Otiluke's Freezing Sphere" memorized, and that you should check page
xxx of the PHB to find out the details, as long as you properly
reference the trademarks on those entities.
: The disclaimer needs to be updated. As is, it would limit some of
: your rights, but the disclaimer in its current form was written before the
: terminology about using/referring to trademarks was clarified.
As an aside, it seems that most of the complaining that led to that
'clarification' was done on rec.games.frp.dnd, a non-legal forum.
Tell me true, Sean, if we hadn't bitched and moaned so much, would
TSR have taken it upon themselves to change the disclaimer?
: Instead of
: If the item is based on or derived from copyrighted material of TSR or
: contains trademarks of TSR," it should say "If the item is based on or
: derived from copyrighted material of TSR
: or uses trademarks of TSR...."
Personally, I see no difference between those two statements other
then the change of 'contains' to the word 'uses.' I was under the
impression that the disclaimer would be changed to reflect the fact
that the proper, referenced, non-disputational use of a trademark
doesn't mean that the work uses TSR's intellectual property. Under
the second version of the disclaimer, above, a review of a TSR
product, using all properly referenced trademarks, would still fall
under TSRs distribution control.
: Until I talked to TSR, I believed that TSR was squashing internet
: sites for fear of competition and as a marketing ploy. Now I am aware of
: TSR's actual position - trying to keep others (i.e., other game companies)
: from taking what is theirs (rights to AD&D and its associated info.
I knew it...it was the Orbital Mind Control Laser Satellites, wasn't
it? How much does the Church of Scientology charge to rent those
things out?
: Unfortunately, the pathway to prevention inconveniences some gamers.
Correction: the pathway to prevention pisses off some loyal
customers. You already lost me, Steve, and I've been buying TSR
products back since the red basic D&D set. I even bought those
Endless Quest books, and my first issue of Dragon was issue #70.
That's quite a few years of enriching TSR's coffers.
I'm no longer buying TSR products, Sean. I've decided to spend my
money on Chaosium and FASA products. I daresay the number of other
people who have made similar decisions is not insignifigant.
ObRhetoric: How many people will have to reach similar decisions
before TSR realizes that the money it saves by protecting its property
is outweighed by the money it loses by alienating its customers?
If I constantly patrol my front yard with a loaded 12-gauge shotgun,
my house probably won't get burgaled anytime soon. But my friends
probably will stop coming by on Sundays to watch the football game, too.
: > Sean, I have, and I'm still waiting for a response. If you are going
: > to push people off to the lawyer, at least make sure she's actually
: > going to responsive. Otherwise there's a communication-problem... or
: > is that the whole idea?
:
: She got the letter, but apparently she's a busy person. I don't
: control her, and she doesn't work for me. I don't dictate her time.
: Write a letter to the lawyer of another company and see how long it is
: before you get a personal response....
No, Sean, that's not what he said. He said that if you're going to
push people off to the lawyer, at least make sure she's going to be
responsive. If you have no control over her, and she's a very busy
person, and she's not going to respond to requests for information
within a reasonable period of time, then stop recommending that people
write to her for information. That's just obfuscation and general
buck-passing.
: "We hug and we kiss, We sit and make lists
: "We drink and I bandage your wrists."
: 'Everything Old Is New Again'
: - BareNaked Ladies
"They fight, they bite
"They bite and bite and fight
"Bite bite bite
"Fight fight fight
"The Itchy & Scratchy Show."
Brian "Strangely appropriate" Trosko
--
Alright, I'm coming out. The first man I see gets shot. The first man
who shoots at me, I'll kill him, his wife, and his friends, then I'll
burn down his Goddamn house.
- Clint Eastwood, _Unforgiven_
Veggie Boy
> It is not illegal to use TSR trademarks. Heck, "TSR" is a TSR
> trademark; I'm using it in this article. My article's not illegal,
> though.
Go back and read the many posts I've made about "using" vs.
"referring to" a TSR trademark.
This has been covered, Ken-man. TSR may not own the word "drow," but
they do own the group of evil elven creatures that have dark skin, white
hair, live underground, use darkness magic, are matriarchal, use
sleep-poisoned crossbows, and worship an evil spider-goddess. Got it?
> If only TSR would stick to this. In the past, TSR has given a list of
every
> single file on a site down to README files and directories, and claiming
it to
> be a list of violations, without bothering to list the items claimed to
> be violations or the reasons why.
This has been covered too. Check your news archives.
OK, that little plant that the Grateful Dead uses on a lot of its
album covers and such? Well, add that to the list of "flowers to not eat."
- Sean Reynolds
TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com
T$R just might be in my killfile. Don't write to my
personal email - it will be ignored; do I go to your
house and ask for a Big Mac?
'NIGHT TURN TO NOON, AND RIVERS BURN WITH FROZEN FIRE
ERE DYRNWYN BE REGAINED.'
james vassilakos
: You're an intelligent guy, Jim.
So are you, Sean... in a round-about sort of way.
: You're in college (my alma mater, in fact).
Actually, I've been out for a few years. I've just managed to maintain
access through UCR as an alumni.
: We've probably have even seen each other at one point and not even
: known it. Why can't you see this?
Why should I care?
: This is TSR's intellectual property,
: and this is the stance they are taking now (companies can change their
: policies, believe it or not), and it's not that unreasonable.
So what you are admitting, if I read you correctly, is that TSR
had a policy throughout the 70s and 80s of encouraging its
consumers to freely distribute fan-authored works which were
compatible with the AD&D roleplaying game system and which
used AD&D-terminology, and then, in 1994, TSR reversed this
policy. Is that a fair analysis of events, Sean? Or do you
deny the accuracy of this statement?
Ken Arromdee
>> purchased from TSR books so I could write gaming material: adventures,
>> characters, new monster and new classes.
> But did you purchase TSR books so you could publish AD&D modules &
>etc.?
It is TSR who claims that putting these materials on FTP sites is publication.
Not me.
Furthermore, even if it is publication, the materials don't necessarily
violate copyrights or trademarks. Using TSR game mechanics is not a
violation; even TSR's own publications publish articles which use game
mechanics of systems owned by others.
> The DMG gave permission and encouragement to create and share with
>the people you game with. It _never_ encouraged anyone to _publish_ AD&D
>works on their own.
See above.
Cook Thomas W
[snip]
: But did you purchase TSR books so you could publish AD&D modules &
: etc.?
I for one purchased "TSR books" for the common language to share my
imagination. And forgive my lack of diplomacy tonight, but I don't have
much sympathy for "your" troubles with BADD, etc. *I* lobbied my high
school to keep them from banning D&D, *I* defended the game to newspaper
reporters looking for a juicy story and I even had the pleasure of
DEFENDING "YOUR" GAME BEFORE A CORONER'S INQUEST!!! Nowhere were you and
your lawyers then, nowhere were you all while friends of mine compiled
databases about BADD and fought against bad press and public fear. Only
now, when people start sharing what has taken decades of sweat and tears to
create do you show up to dictate what we can or cannot do. Forgive me,
but the contempt and ignorance that you have shown for the people who helped
make you what you are sickens me.
Thomas.
(killfile at your own risk, I only speak the truth)
Brett D Altschul
> T$R just might be in my killfile. Don't write to my
> personal email - it will be ignored; do I go to your
> house and ask for a Big Mac?
No, but, then again, I don't work at MacDonald's.
Demon Sultan of Khaipur
Brett Altschul
Cook Thomas W
: Cook Thomas W (3t...@qlink.queensu.ca) wrote:
[my grumpy flame snipped]
: Out of curiousity, did you ever CONTACT TSR about the above?
A good question and the honest answer is no - it never even
occurred to me at the time (and if it had I likely wouldn't have done
anything about it). TSR was still a distant mythical entity
to me and we were convinced that we could vindicate our hobby - which
we did (it had its lighter moments - such as explaining that pink
panther Kinder Toys were not satanic props for D&D and that the cryptic
squiggle on the Joker most likely meant he had lost the 2 of clubs :)
It didn't and doesn't bother me that we didn't have outside help.
What bothers me is the irony that people are hunted down for
copyright violations in various shades of grey while a reasonably
well-publicized Coroner's Inquest which disected the gaming (AD&D) life
of a close friend without their knowledge. I guess I really don't like
being faced with the realities of where the priorities of buisnesses are.
Thomas.
PS. The hardest part was figuring out what to do with his character - I
would have quit DMing entirely rather than face this decision expect
several friends asked me to resume the game to help hold the club together.
Brian Trosko
don't know what's getting out and what's not...]
Veggie Boy (skr...@netcom.com) wrote:
then Ford gets to decide how I distribute my story.
Brett D Altschul
>'NIGHT TURN TO NOON, AND RIVERS BURN WITH FROZEN FIRE
> ERE DYRNWYN BE REGAINED.'
-Lloyd Alexander,
_The_High_King_
I might point out that Veggie Boy didn't properly attribute this piece of copy-
righted material. ;)
Andrew Hackard
:: > First of all, what you are talking about here has more to do with character
:: > copyrights than trademarks. Regardless, your "disclaimer" on MPGN does not
:: > make the distinction which you are advocating here, and until it does,
:: > your words can only be viewed as double-talk.
:: You won't believe me, but no double-talk is intended.
:
:Then fix the disclaimer.
According to TSR,the disclaimer isn't broken.
:: Once I get an answer back from Connie about "generic" terms, I'll
:: post it.
:
:Great. Please try to get her to be as detailed as possible. We'd like
:a actual list of AD&D terms which TSR agrees its fans can use freely.
Sean's already said that isn't going to happen. Jim, you are asking for
something which TSR is unwilling (or unable) to provide.
--
Does the government have any idea how long it will take to get the
Virgins back on their feet? -- John Roberts, about Hurricane Marilyn
Lone_Wolf
"Published" thread use the magic keys now.
[Ducking behind a reinforced, titanium plated firewall]
Veggie Boy wrote:
>> A QUOTE FROM THE AD&D MONSTER MANUAL written by Mike Carr 27 September
>> 1977
[Snipping for space]
>> This seems to imply that, not only did TSR know of spin-offs for QUITE
>> some time, but ALLOWED there usage for quite some time.
> It says "may concede," Jim. Not "definitely concede."
Hmm... If this discussion is going to decend to this level of
nitpicking, then the MPGN disclaimer is in more trouble than I thought.
>> I believe this, in itself, is a precedence set. Don't quote me,
though, I'm not a lawyer.
> So I've heard. And again, not being a lawyer (or even a law
> student), your opinion on legal precedence doesn't hold much water.
True enough. Just thought I'd point out that it could also be argued that
since we have yet to see any supporting evidence at all from TSR's
lawyer(s) that his/her (their) opinion doesn't have any support either.
>> A QUOTE FROM THE AD&D DM'S GUIDE 1979 by E. Gary Gygax
[Snipping again]
>> with others. In fact, both the DM's Guide and Player's Handbooks
>> ENCOURAGE you to create worlds and adventures and share them!
> Yep, it does. However, it also doesn't say "Please rip off our
> trademarks and copyrights, and publish your stuff for thousands of
> people to see."
So far, the same people who've been posting regularly on this issue are
the same people who nail the occasional jerk posting copyrighted
material. No one here wants to rip off TSR's trademarks and copyrights.
It's kind of self-defeating.
In fact, I rather strongly resent the implication that theft is one of my
reasons for being on the net. And if that is TSR's real opinion of the
internet, then you guys have a SERIOUS attitude problem. Hopefully this
isn't the case.
What I am in this newsgroup for is to share *ideas*, to *trade*
adventures, npcs, pc stories, house rules, new monsters, new spells, and
so forth. It's nice to already have the info put into game format so I
don't have to spend time deciding what magic items and spells this npc
should have. Or how to convert this format into one I can use while
keeping the effects and power level. This seems to be what most netters
want. Is it so unreasonable?
Do I have a problem with putting in trademark acknowledgements? No. Does
putting in references to TSR-published material like the player's
handbook (whatever edition) cut into TSR's profits? Not that I can see.
In fact, in order to use the uploaded material, you kinda have to have
the PH, TOM, FR boxed set, or whatever so you can look up the info on
those pages - which means putting bucks in TSR's coffers. Are people
going to upload copyrighted material, or reference trademarks without
properly giving credit to the copyright/trademark holder? Unfortunately
yes. In the former case (copyright violation), the offending *FILE* must
be removed. Not the whole directory. Not the whole site. Just the file.
In the latter case (trademark), a simple warning with specific examples
cited would be enough. If the uploader doesn't correct the matter in a
reasonable amount of time (say 30 days), then talk to the sysadmin. If
nothing is done, then threaten legal action, again citing specific
examples, if the *FILE* (not the directory, not the site) isn't fixed or
removed.
>> A QUOTE FROM THE PLAYERS HANDBOOK 1978 by E. Gary Gygax
[Snip]
>> Now, how in hell are DM's to "alter and bend" the material to suit the
>> needs of our net campaigns if we can't share that material????????????
> Share it with the people you play with. Or, if you want to
> distribute to a larger audience, put it online. If it is AD&D material,
> respect the IP rights of TSR and follow their requested restrictions.
From what I've seen, 99% of the people on this newsgroup have no
objections to respecting *everyone's* IP rights, TSR's and other gamers'.
As for following the requested restrictions, I have seen few "requests"
from TSR so far (help with the spell index and the trademark list being
notable exceptions). Sure, there've been some communications about what
terms are generic and what aren't. But what we all (gamers and TSR) need
is a clearly defined, TSR-stamped list of what we can and can't post with
*EXAMPLES*.
It's been a long time since anything definite (such as a policy
statement, or an "official" list of do's and dont's) has been seen in
these parts.
How can TSR protect its IP with such a list? Well, I'm not a lawyer
either (no snide comments please), but I believe someone suggested adding
a conditional statement like SJG's or FASA's. How much grief are their
online presences getting? How many copyright and trademark violations are
other companies having to face? Perhaps FASA will let TSR copy their
internet policy. [Honest suggestion]
>> If that isn't enough for you, here's a quote from Gygax dated 1989:
> Ah, a quote taken four years after he left the company? Of _course_
> he had the right to speak for TSR at that point. :)
Heh! Good point.
> You're an intelligent guy, Jim. You're in college (my alma mater, in
>fact). We've probably have even seen each other at one point and not even
>known it. Why can't you see this?
[Gasoline warning!!!! THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A FLAME!!!! All of
it is my *opinion*. "Shields are holding, Captain!"]
I think, Sean, the question is, why can't TSR see this? Other gaming
companies (SJG, FASA) have made their internet policies rather open and
clear. They have not suffered for it, by everything I've heard. Other
companies have already probed these waters without raising a hurricane of
email, flames, and posts. If you've heard different, let us know. Be
specific. Where does TSR's intellectual property rights differ from
SJG's? Or FASA's?
Part of the problem seems to be that TSR doesn't see things from the
gamers' standpoint. You guys and gals aren't out here seeing years of
resources and work disappear in one week. That's right, YEARS of work
gone at the press of a few buttons (especially the big red one labeled
Legal Threat ;). You also aren't in a position where ideas that you've
labored over for months can't be distributed in a useful format to other
gamers who might be interested. Sure, I can upload my much beloved
campaign notes to MPGN, but the disclaimer that will get attached to it
gives TSR some rather blanket claims to my intellectual property just
because I have the line, "This information is intended to be used with
the AD&D (r) game. (Where (r) denotes a trademark owned by TSR Inc. This
is not intended as a challenge to said trademark.)" I know you have
already said that the disclaimer needs to be changed, but as long as it
allows TSR to block, possibly take my ideas and *own* them, or even
prevent me from sharing them with other people, I am NOT going to upload
anything to MPGN.
I, for one, would not exactly be pleased about giving TSR ownership of my
work for free on MPGN because of an admittedly problematic disclaimer.
Once the disclaimer is attached and I say "Yes" to it, I'm stuck with it.
It's permanent. I can't get rid of the disclaimer without TSR's express
permission. My work is no longer mine, and I didn't even get paid for
it. (An exaggeration, yes. But I hope you get my point.)
[Gasoline warning off. Avoid ingestion, prolonged skin contact , or
contact with the eyes. Rinse thoroughly in the event of contact. Burn
victims should seek immediate medical attention. Have a nice day :]
> This is TSR's intellectual property, and this is the stance they are
>taking now (companies can change their policies, believe it or not), and
>it's not that unreasonable.
I am very, very grateful that TSR's policies can change, and have changed
since the beginning of this year. I am also grateful that you and Jim
Butler have put in a lot of work to effect that change. No one could
possibly pay me enough to put up with the flack you guys get, even when
it's not your fault! :>
As to whether TSR's policy is unreasonable or not, that is what these
threads are about. A fair number of people, myself included, find these
policies very unreasonable. And since we have not been informed in any
great detail as to why TSR insists on these policies (legal information,
the amount of copyrighted material being distributed illegally, heck -
you guys don't know what you have trademarks on?! ), they're always going
to *be* unreasonable.
I hope that we can turn this mutually losing situation into a win-win
situation for both gamers and TSR. Here's my small contribution.
>- Sean Reynolds
> TSR Online Coordinator
> TSR...@aol.com
Guardian
Professional Technical Writer
(It says "Technical Document Designer" on my business cards, but I didn't
print them)
Guar...@mariner.cris.com
/ Don't bother to flame me. You'll just be wasting your time. All of /
/ the above is my own opinion. No insult is intended. It's been a /
/ *long* day. Have a good weekend, folks. :) /
Veggie Boy
> is publication. Not me.
between writing an AD&D module and:
Copying it a thousand times at Kinko's, having it bound and looking
nice, then leaving stacks of them at hobby shops.
Copying it a thousand times at Kinko's, having it stapled together,
then leaving stacks of them at hobby shops.
Making a thousand disks with your HTML version of the module, then
leaving stacks of them at hobby shops.
Making a thousand disks with your ASCII version of the module, then
leaving stacks of them at hobby shops.
Uploading your ASCII version of the module to your private,
limited-access ftp site.
Uploading your ASCII version of the module to an anonymous-access ftp
site.
Uploading your ASCII version of the module to several
anonymous-access ftp sites.
> Using TSR game
> mechanics is not a violation; even TSR's own publications
> publish articles which use game mechanics of systems owned by
> others.
- Sean Reynolds
TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com
T$R just might be in my killfile. Don't write to my
personal email - it will be ignored; do I go to your
house and ask for a Big Mac?
"You, you are so strange, why can't you be what you ought to be?"
- the Russian and Florence, CHESS
Veggie Boy
> your magic system might be able to be used with AD&D with considerable
> effort, it is not a supplement which I would say is intended for use
> with AD&D.
that several other people have started using it in theirs, too. The
system was originally written for my own totally new RPG, and then
converted to fit AD&D when I dropped the RPG. The text you read was an
exact copy of the one I use in my AD&D game.
> Don't grasp for rights you can't realistically hold on to. If you really
> think you're right, then let me know that you are willing to settle this
> in court via an enjoinment for injunction, and we'll start moving in that
> direction in terms of getting a specific fan-authored module ready as the
> actual test-case.
- Sean Reynolds
TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com
T$R just might be in my killfile. Don't write to my
personal email - it will be ignored; do I go to your
house and ask for a Big Mac?
"Am I the only one, that loves to make you laugh, laugh until you cry?
Am I the only one, who asks you to go, go on without me?"
'Am I The Only One," - BareNaked Ladies
Veggie Boy
> and "uses trademarks of TSR" needs to be further clarified to
distinguish
> between "uses trademarks of TSR as references to TSR products, services
> or product lines" -- which is a sensible and correct use of trademarked
> terms, and "uses trademarks of TSR in a way that confuses or challenges
> ownership of the trademarked products, services or product lines" which
> is not.
change will clear up the use vs. reference issue (and hopefully settle
this part of the argument), she'll do it. I showed her your post (this
one that I'm replying to), and she's going to try to come up with a
wording that explains the difference without confusing the issue any more.
She said she'd call me about it on Monday.
> Furthermore, that "if" doesn't sit well with me. ...
> I would prefer a more selective application of an absolute
> disclaimer to a global application of a self-selective disclaimer.
to whether or not they'd need the disclaimer (whee! more work for me!).
They gang at MPGN just doesn't have the time to do it.
- Sean Reynolds
TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com
T$R just might be in my killfile. Don't write to my
personal email - it will be ignored; do I go to your
house and ask for a Big Mac?
"640K is more Ram than anyone will ever need." -Bill Gates, 1981
Veggie Boy
: I also know that the disclaimer, itself, doesn't say "referring to TSR
: trademarks is not what we mean by 'use'". In fact, the disclaimer doesn't
: If the disclaimer said that, your distinction would be relevant. But the
: disclaimer doesn't say that. You can say "referring to a trademark isn't
: use" as much as you want and TSR can still decide later on that it's use
: anyway, and start restricting the distribution of material that refers to
: TSR trademarks and has the disclaimer on it.
Hopefully, this point (and it is a totally valid one) will be taken care of
by Monday.
A daisy is a simple, yet pretty flower....
Veggie Boy
: But all that's irrelevant, because no matter what the merits of the
: legal forum."
Would you like a group of faceless people that you'll never see and
whose credentials have no proof of decide the fate of your company,
Brian?
: I'd that that qualifies as "not allowed."
: Well, you could also take the moral high ground and resign your
: postition, due to its being ethically unacceptable to you. Naahh...
I have no ethical problems with this job, Brian. :)
: First off, this may have been dealt with in another thread, but
: perhaps many of us didn't see it. If TSR is changing a given policy,
: then why isn't TSR making very sure this information gets out there?
If I can sift through all of these threads, Brian, other people can
do it, too. And if I'm posting, isn't it "out there?"
Why doesn't TSR put together a document citing examples of what is
: does and does not consider to be acceptable use? For instance, your
: example above could be one of many, all straight from the mouthpiece
: of TSR, and collated in one large, specific, easily obtainable
: document. At the least, it would prevent us from having to thrash out
: the same garbage over and over and over again.
Jim and I are working on a TSR Policy FAQ.
: Secondly, I'd still disagree with your example. If I write a story
: about a guy who writes short stories, and happen to mention the fact
: that he uses Wordperfect(tm) 6.0 on his Intel(r) Pentium(tm) computer,
: and I legally acknowledge those trademarks, that doesn't mean that
: Intel and Wordperfect suddenly gain distribution rights over my story.
Right, and that's why I mentioned this to Connie today to get it fixed.
: : If you are so convinced that you are right, why don't you?
: Well, it seems there's this little issue of required funds. Would you
: be willing to pass the hat around at Lake Geneva and see what you can
: donate to the Cause?
So, you're asking me to raise money to sue my own employer?
: I knew it...it was the Orbital Mind Control Laser Satellites, wasn't
: it? How much does the Church of Scientology charge to rent those
: things out?
Actually, I got my Mind Control Crystal from the 20th anniversary
party for TSR. It sits in my cabinet in my living room, so it can
Aardy R. DeVarque
[someone else wrote:]
>> Using TSR game
>> mechanics is not a violation; even TSR's own publications
>> publish articles which use game mechanics of systems owned by
>> others.
>
> For the purpose of review, hmmm?
Find almost any DRAGON Project article from DragMag; especially the
D.R.A.G.O.N project one. Not an ounce of review. Loads of game
mechanics.
Or the very recent article on bar fights which included Castle
Falkenstein game stats. No review there, either.
Oops.
Aardy R. DeVarque
Feudalism: Serf & Turf
Andrew Hackard
>Veggie Boy (skr...@netcom.com) wrote:
>But all that's irrelevant, because no matter what the merits of the
>arguments given here are, TSR blows them off, because this "isn't a
>legal forum."
Right. This isn't the place where the merits of the arguments should be
judged.
>: I'm involved in this debate no
>: matter what I do, Jim. If I answer, I get nitpicked. If I don't, then
>: I'm TSR's mouthpiece which ignores the company's customers. Hmmm, maybe
>: there's an adventure idea in this somewhere.
>
>Well, you could also take the moral high ground and resign your
>postition, due to its being ethically unacceptable to you. Naahh...
Sean is saying that he's caught between two unattractive alternatives.
It's not ethically unacceptable, it's just a pain in the butt.
>: That has also been dealt with in another thread. Don't use
>: trademarks ("This adventure takes place in the city of Waterdeep in the
>: Forgotten Realms"), just _refer_ to them ("This adventure takes place in a
>: large port city; a good location would be Waterdeep of the Forgotten
>: Realms"). The latter, if properly attributed, is a legal reference.
>
>First off, this may have been dealt with in another thread, but
>perhaps many of us didn't see it.
I've seen it several times in different threads.
>Secondly, I'd still disagree with your example. If I write a story
>about a guy who writes short stories, and happen to mention the fact
>that he uses Wordperfect(tm) 6.0 on his Intel(r) Pentium(tm) computer,
>and I legally acknowledge those trademarks, that doesn't mean that
>Intel and Wordperfect suddenly gain distribution rights over my story.
But if you write a story in which Bobby Smith flies powered suits through
the skies, belongs to the Mobile Infantry, answers to the Sky Marshal, and
is fighting the Bug War, Ginny Heinlein and her lawyers will be talking
to you. By saying outright that an adventure takes place in Waterdeep,
you are placing the adventure within a previously established context; by
saying it may be set in Waterdeep, you provide a possible setting.
>: It's _not_ your work. If it _uses_ TSR properties, TSR owns
>: part of it,
>
>Pardon my bluntness, but that's bullshit. By that logic, if I write a
>screenplay where the lead character happens to drive a Ford Mustang,
>then Ford gets to decide who I distribute my story.
Pardon *my* bluntness, but you are being deliberately obfuscatory. Sean
is drawing a distinction between *using* a trademark, where that trademark
is an integral and vital part of the story, and *referring* to it, where
the adventure is portable but *may*, for convenience, be dropped into an
existing town.
>Heck, I guess that means Jack Vance should get a say as to which hobby
>stores get to sell the DMG, since he created ioun stones.
This is an excellent point. Did Vance have anything to say about that?
>: Again, the net-community is not a legal forum, and so their beliefs
>: don't make law. As upsetting as this might be, you have to realize that.
>
>And the legal opinions of TSR's paid lawyers don't make the law,
>either. Congress does. As upsetting as this might be, you've got to
>realize that.
OTOH, the job of the lawyers is to *interpret* the law that is already out
there. That's done in a legal forum, which the net *is not*.
>: Unfortunately, the pathway to prevention inconveniences some gamers.
>
>Correction: the pathway to prevention pisses off some loyal
>customers.
How does one exclude the other?
TSR has certain rights to their properties. That you are annoyed because
they have chosen to start exercising those rights with more vigor is,
honestly, *your* problem.
>I'm no longer buying TSR products, Sean. I've decided to spend my
>money on Chaosium and FASA products. I daresay the number of other
>people who have made similar decisions is not insignifigant.
>ObRhetoric: How many people will have to reach similar decisions
>before TSR realizes that the money it saves by protecting its property
>is outweighed by the money it loses by alienating its customers?
ObDuh: Enough people so that the money it saves by protecting its
property actually *is* outweighted by the money it loses by alienating
its customers.
>No, Sean, that's not what he said. He said that if you're going to
>push people off to the lawyer, at least make sure she's going to be
>responsive. If you have no control over her, and she's a very busy
>person, and she's not going to respond to requests for information
>within a reasonable period of time, then stop recommending that people
>write to her for information. That's just obfuscation and general
>buck-passing.
You're putting him in a bind again. His bosses are telling him to refer
all legal questions to the lawyer. The lawyer takes her time with them.
You folks tell him to either answer the question herself, which he cannot
do, or require the lawyer to answer faster, which he cannot do.
If you're going to expect ANY results, you'd better give Sean something that
is at least within the realm of possiblity.
Brian Trosko
: Would you like a group of faceless people that you'll never see and
: whose credentials have no proof of decide the fate of your company,
: Brian?
Nope, just like I don't like a group of faceless people that I'll never
see and whose credentials I have no proof of deciding the fate of my
creative property.
: : First off, this may have been dealt with in another thread, but
: : perhaps many of us didn't see it. If TSR is changing a given policy,
: : then why isn't TSR making very sure this information gets out there?
: If I can sift through all of these threads, Brian, other people can
: do it, too. And if I'm posting, isn't it "out there?"
Not if it's buried deep in a thread that many people have already
killfiled. The reason you sift through all of these threads is that it's
your *job*, Sean. If TSR changes a policy, or a disclaimer, or what have
you, it's TSR's *duty* to make that information known. Newspapers don't
run corrections to front page stories buried deep in the "Used Car"
section of the classifieds. If you're seriously suggesting that TSR
feels that the Usenet equivalent of that is justified, then I'm afraid I
can't take your efforts to clear up the points of confusion seriously.
Yeah, that FAQ you and Jim are working on is a nice thing, but if you
post it in a followup to a "T$R Sucks" thread, most people won't see.
And what's the purpose of that?
: Jim and I are working on a TSR Policy FAQ.
Any idea when it will be completed?
: Right, and that's why I mentioned this to Connie today to get it fixed.
Any idea when it will be fixed?
: So, you're asking me to raise money to sue my own employer?
No, I'm asking you to get off the "If you've got a case, why not bring
suit?" high horse. You know damn well that most of us don't have the
money for that sort of thing; most of us don't have the money to run for
public office, either, but that doesn't stop us from voting. In fact,
the whole fact that we *don't* have the money is what TSR is counting
on. TSR has never allowed this kind of thing to go to court, because it
fears the potential legal decision. So, if it can intimidate potential
litigators, it wins without ever having to fight. You know this, and to
claim we don't have a case because we're not taking it to court is
nothing more then supercilious hypocrisy.
Personally, I can't wait for the test case.
: Actually, I got my Mind Control Crystal from the 20th anniversary
: party for TSR. It sits in my cabinet in my living room, so it can
Cool. I was wondering. How much do those things cost? I've got a few
points I'd like to make to my boss...
Lone_Wolf
[snipping a bit]
>> and "uses trademarks of TSR" needs to be further clarified to
>distinguish
>> between "uses trademarks of TSR as references to TSR products, services
>> or product lines" -- which is a sensible and correct use of trademarked
>> terms, and "uses trademarks of TSR in a way that confuses or challenges
>> ownership of the trademarked products, services or product lines" which
>> is not.
>
> I spoke with Connie about this, and she says that if making this
>change will clear up the use vs. reference issue (and hopefully settle
>this part of the argument), she'll do it. I showed her your post (this
>one that I'm replying to), and she's going to try to come up with a
>wording that explains the difference without confusing the issue any more.
> She said she'd call me about it on Monday.
See? TSR's policies can change! Maybe not as fast as we'd like :), but
there is hope.
Thank you, Sean, for passing this along to Connie.
Hmmm. Perhaps I may start uploading some of my work. And with any luck,
people won't think I'm wasting *their* time ;) [See? My policies can
change too. Maybe not as fast as my family would like, but they say there
is hope for me ;]
>- Sean Reynolds
> TSR Online Coordinator
> TSR...@aol.com
>
/ Don't bother to flame me. You'll just be wasting your time. All of /
/ the above is my own opinion. No insult is intended. Babylon 5 is a /
/ great show. The Final Four episodes of Season 2 start in October! /
Terry Austin
>Veggie Boy <skr...@netcom.com> wrote:
>: Would you like a group of faceless people that you'll never see and
>: whose credentials have no proof of decide the fate of your company,
>: Brian?
>Nope, just like I don't like a group of faceless people that I'll never
>see and whose credentials I have no proof of deciding the fate of my
>creative property.
Guess you both know how the other feels. Now try bending a little
instead of constant complaining about how things are. Do something.
>No, I'm asking you to get off the "If you've got a case, why not bring
>suit?" high horse. You know damn well that most of us don't have the
>money for that sort of thing; most of us don't have the money to run for
>public office, either, but that doesn't stop us from voting. In fact,
>the whole fact that we *don't* have the money is what TSR is counting
>on. TSR has never allowed this kind of thing to go to court, because it
>fears the potential legal decision. So, if it can intimidate potential
>litigators, it wins without ever having to fight. You know this, and to
>claim we don't have a case because we're not taking it to court is
>nothing more then supercilious hypocrisy.
>Personally, I can't wait for the test case.
Can't argue with anything here. But what's your point? This is how
things work in modern America. Those with money have power, those
without money don't. Things can be done in other ways, but only be
people willing to devote their lives to their goals. And this IS only
game, so no one is likely to become a crusader.
Until the test case does happen, nothing will change. TSR has no
reason to change a situation that is clearly to their advantage, and
without money, not one else can change things. Most of the whining is
for TSR to do something that (right or wrong) they believe will cost
them money, out of the goodness of their hearts. You won't buy their
cheesy products out of the goodness of your heart, so they can buy
their kids Christmas presents, why should they be more generous than
you.
I am astounded that anti-TSR people constantly complain that TSR does
the very things to them that they are trying to do to TSR. Hypocrisy?
Or just blind stupidity? In either event, it's pretty amusing.
As for supercilious hypocricy, well, see above. Get real. What has
ANYONE out here offered TSR that would induce them to change anything
about their policies? Only the idea that electronic publishing is
going to be the wave of the future, and personal ego problems, has
gotten them to even take the internet question seriously at all.
Almost everyone who says "I'm not gonna buy TSR products anymore"
already doesn't. Including me. They're not losing customers, they
just aren't getting any back. And there are only about a half dozen
names that appear in any copyright/trademark thread on a regular
basis. Of the occasionals, most are either "TSR has a point" or "Who
cares, where's the gaming stuff?" The rest are outright copyright
theives. These are not people who represent a big threat to TSR's
income, and they know it.
Take a good, hard took at just what you really are to TSR. How much
have you spent on TSR products in you entire lifetime? $100? $1000.
$10,000? So what. They have an income of probably $100 MILLION+ a
year! Until that changes, they won't. Nor should they. That's the
real world. The world of business. Gaming is a hobby for you. It's
a profession for them.
Terry Austin
tau...@ni.net
Christopher Beattie
>> And IIRC, the B5 people are tickled pink that people like their show so
>> much that they write fanfic about it-- Imitation is the sincerest form
>> of flattery, and all that.
> Hmmm, I read either here or rec.arts.startrek.tech that the producers
>of B5 were clamping down on B5 fan-fiction because they didn't want fanfic
>to compete with or be similar to B5 upcoming materials. Ah, well, it was
>a long time ago....
B5 is probably an exception to most publishing and even TV situations as
the general plot line of the series has already been written. Thus IIRC
the producers did not want fan-fiction going down paths that were simply
not possible.
This is not the case in other shows, fan involvement caused many characters
in Star Trek TNG to move from minor positions to major roles and eventually
into the other series.
I hope to some extent it is not the case with TSR, but if they have indeed
fixed long term scenarios for all their campaign worlds which does not take
customer response into consideration, well so be it.
| _____ |Christopher Beattie |Tantalus Incorporated|
| ___ |[]|_n_n_I_c |Tantalus @ Key West | P.O. Box 2310|
| |___||__|###|____)|Development Division| Key West, FL 33045|
| O-O--O-O+++--O-O |chr...@mpgn.com |Phone: (305) 293-8100|
| Opinions expressed here belong to me! | Fax: (305) 292-7835|
Brian Trosko
: basis. Of the occasionals, most are either "TSR has a point" or "Who
: cares, where's the gaming stuff?" The rest are outright copyright
: theives.
Name some names for us, Terry. I'd like to see who gets libeled here.
Cook Thomas W
: Not too many people disagree with TSR's right to protect their
: intellectual property.
Check.
: Only on exactly what that intellectual property is.
(and to what extent it is in their best interests to "protect" it - a
know a growing number of people who have been alienated by TSR's policies
and are starting over in other systems)
: And that debate is not going to be decided here. It will be decided
: in a court, or in Congress. Or both.
(forgiving for the moment that this is really an international debate and
the US only has jurisdiction within their own borders... - or would you
be satisfied if our House of Commons decided this issue for you?)
Why should people outside the issue make all the decisions - we're on the
front lines so to speak - wouldn't it be better is TSR and the gaming
community could hammer out some agreeable comprimise to *make* the
precidents ourselves. If both sides could talk this out and get a good
feeling for how to meet each others needs [without fearing that every word
sets legally binding policy or trying to get away with whatever we/they
can or killfiling everyone who disagrees with one's position], then
perhaps we might actually solve this problem.
Thomas.
Terry Austin
>Terry Austin <tau...@ni.net> wrote:
I'm not naming any names. I don't keep track of such things, because
I don't really care. But we've all seen posts stating that the poster
doesn't believe in copyright law. They are rare, and usually flamed
into oblivion by BOTH sides of the real issue. Not too many people
disagree with TSR's right to protect their intellectual property.
Only on exactly what that intellectual property is. And that debate
is not going to be decided here. It will be decided in a court, or in
Congress. Or both.
Terry Austin
tau...@ni.net
Aardy R. DeVarque
>> The DMG gave permission and encouragement to create and share with
>>the people you game with. It _never_ encouraged anyone to _publish_ AD&D
>>works on their own.
>Hate to say it but your entering a semantics debate again. Whats the
>difference between "share with the people you game with" and "publish"? If I
>write up some material in AD&D format and print out a copy to use in my games
>is that sharing or publishing?
The difference is that using the material inside of your campaign is the way
in which the game was intended to be used, see the arguments re: "Work of
Utility" awhile back (they're on Mark Toigo's web page). Thus, it doesn't
qualify as "distribution." and for the purposes of copyright law,
distribute=publish.
These other questions, however, are toughies. I'll give my *opinions* on
them, but I'm not sure as to how the law actually lays. IANAL and all that.
>Now if I decide that the material works really
>well and leave it in my college`s gaming club`s closet so that the other gamers
>at my school (some of whom I game with) can use it is it published or shared?
possibly published, but quite likely actually shared, since it *is* all
being used internally by the same gaming group.
>If I leave a copy in our supplies after I graduate so that future gamers that I
>personally never gameed with, but people I gamed with gamed with, can use it is
>it published or shared?
probably published; very likely not shared, as it's gone outside the group
for which it was written.
>Now what if one of those gamers photocopies it (I say
>its PD so its legal to copy) to use with his gaming group back home, is it now
>published?
Almost definitely published. Whether or not *you* say it's PD, it quite
possibly would be unauthorized distribution of derivative material.
>What if I post it to my campuses Notes forum so that anyone on
>campus can read it, is it published yet?
Published.
>If it is doesn't my professor violate
>the textbook companies rights when he posts course material on the campus
>network?
Definitely published, but doesn't matter. Free use by a teacher for
educational purposes. Your posting would be for entertainment purposes,
unless you were teaching the the class "Roleplaying in the Psychology
Environment: an examination of roleplaying's effects on the typical human
psyche, as exmplified by the players of RPG's".
However, these questions are moot if the material in question is considered
"generic" by TSR, meaning they won't put clamps on any distribution.
The Amorphous Mass
> Actually, I got my Mind Control Crystal from the 20th anniversary
> party for TSR. It sits in my cabinet in my living room, so it can
>
You see that?! They've got censors that edit the posts! So it can
what, Sean? Or can you tell us without getting bumped off?
:)
--James, who just watched Terry Gilliam's _Brazil_ again last night.
----------------
The Amorphous Mass (james-f-...@uiowa.edu)
aka Hyacinth, elven ambassador to the Human Islands
"Black as the night, swift as the wind, subtle as a summer sunset,
lovely as moonlight on the sea, and generally pretty wierd"
Brian Trosko
: Pardon *my* bluntness, but you are being deliberately obfuscatory. Sean
: is drawing a distinction between *using* a trademark, where that trademark
: is an integral and vital part of the story, and *referring* to it, where
: the adventure is portable but *may*, for convenience, be dropped into an
: existing town.
Perhaps you could look through the TSR disclaimer and point out where
exactly it makes a disticntion between 'using' a trademark and
'referencing' one. I seem to have missed it.
As the disclaimer stands now, there is no such distinction, which means
that even if I reference TSR trademarks in an entirely legitimate manner,
such as for review purposes, the disclaimer still results in TSR
acquiring distribution control over my piece.
Sorry, but I think I'll wait until the disclaimer is actually changed
before I accept it. As you and Sean have so carefully pointed out, this
is not a legal forum, and therefore Sean's statements about the meaning
and intent behind the disclaimer don't hold much water.
: How does one exclude the other?
Ask Steve Jackson Games. Or FASA. Or Chaosium.
: TSR has certain rights to their properties. That you are annoyed because
: they have chosen to start exercising those rights with more vigor is,
: honestly, *your* problem.
Of course, the whole problem stems from the belief that TSR's opinions of
what constitutes its 'property' goes a bit further than the law allows
for. Ponder this: If TSR is taking the only possible measures to protect
their properties, and if they took lesser steps they would leave
themselves open to widespread theft, then what exactly are SJG, FASA, et
al, thinking? One would assume that those companies have every desire to
protect their intellectual property as well, since that's a responsible
business attitude. Why, then, are their policies not as draconian(tm) as
those of TSR? Did TSR's lawyers just go to a better law school? Or
could it be that TSR is taking steps that are further than necessary? Hmm?
: >ObRhetoric: How many people will have to reach similar decisions
: >before TSR realizes that the money it saves by protecting its property
: >is outweighed by the money it loses by alienating its customers?
: ObDuh: Enough people so that the money it saves by protecting its
: property actually *is* outweighted by the money it loses by alienating
: its customers.
The key word was 'realizes.' Corporations don't always make the correct
decision in any given circumstance.
Brian "As a good example..." Trosko
Sean K Reynolds
: I might point out that Veggie Boy didn't properly attribute this piece of copy-
: righted material. ;)
Thanks, I missed that one.
--
Sean K Reynolds a.k.a. Veggie Boy skr...@netcom.com skr...@aol.com
"The rule which forbids ending a sentence with a preposition is the kind
of nonsense up with which I will not put." - Winston Churchill
Sean K Reynolds
> the same people who nail the occasional jerk posting copyrighted
> material. No one here wants to rip off TSR's trademarks and copyrights.
> It's kind of self-defeating.
that very well might be the _result_.
> In fact, I rather strongly resent the implication that theft is one of my
> reasons for being on the net.
any individual or group - again, I was describing the long-term effects of
using TSR IP in this manner.
> Do I have a problem with putting in trademark acknowledgements? No. Does
> putting in references to TSR-published material like the player's
> handbook (whatever edition) cut into TSR's profits? Not that I can see.
about to start - give me your comments on it. I'm trying to get the
disclaimer to convey a definite separation between "use of" and
"references to" TSR property within the disclaimer (so nobody can claim
I'm using doublespeak to say one thing while the disclaimer days another).
> In the former case (copyright violation), the offending *FILE* must
> be removed. Not the whole directory. Not the whole site. Just the file.
> In the latter case (trademark), a simple warning with specific examples
> cited would be enough.
with net-sites is no longer in use.
> As for following the requested restrictions, I have seen few "requests"
> from TSR so far (help with the spell index and the trademark list being
> notable exceptions).
since my time here (wow, it sounds like I'm claiming credit for the whole
thing) ... look for more to come in the future (I know what a valuable
resource the net is, and I know the netters want to participate).
> But what we all (gamers and TSR) need
> is a clearly defined, TSR-stamped list of what we can and can't post with
> *EXAMPLES*.
list is:
1) don't _use_ any TSR trademarks
2) don't violate TSR copyrights (yes, I know this is much more vague
than #1)
> I think, Sean, the question is, why can't TSR see this? Other gaming
> companies (SJG, FASA) have made their internet policies rather open and
> SJG's? Or FASA's?
attack RPG's, they attack TSR. When an unscrupulous company (Company X)
seeks to make some money by using an RPG company's IP, it is TSR that they
attack (because Company X can make the most money from TSR IP for the same
amount of work).
> Part of the problem seems to be that TSR doesn't see things from the
> gamers' standpoint. You guys and gals aren't out here seeing years of
> resources and work disappear in one week.
was your typical just-out-of-college gamer-on-the-net, and was quite
surprised when greyhawk.stanford.edu was shut down so suddenly. I didn't
like it.
> Sure, I can upload my much beloved
> campaign notes to MPGN, but the disclaimer that will get attached to it
> gives TSR some rather blanket claims to my intellectual property
disclaimer explicitly requires that to be redistributed or published
without the consent of TSR (which owns the TSR parts) and the author (who
owns the parts they made).
> Once the disclaimer is attached and I say "Yes" to it, I'm stuck with it.
> It's permanent. I can't get rid of the disclaimer without TSR's express
> permission. My work is no longer mine, and I didn't even get paid for
> it. (An exaggeration, yes. But I hope you get my point.)
or simply by "genericising it." (Yes, I get your point)
- Sean Reynolds
TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com
Sean K Reynolds
> had a policy throughout the 70s and 80s of encouraging its
> consumers to freely distribute fan-authored works which were
> compatible with the AD&D roleplaying game system and which
> used AD&D-terminology,and then, in 1994, TSR reversed this
> policy. Is that a fair analysis of events, Sean? Or do you
> deny the accuracy of this statement?
One more time: TSR gave permission for people to create new AD&D
materials and share them with the people that they play AD&D with. They
_never_ gave permission for people to independantly publish these
materials and release them to the public domain.
Sean K Reynolds
> killfiled.
not interested in the entire copyright discussion?
But, I admit, you have a point, so I'll be starting a new thread
about the revised disclaimer.
- Sean Reynolds
TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com
"We have known pain you could only imagine. The pain of domination, the pain
of losing our friends at our own hands, the pain of fighting to win our
freedom.... Know this, that the Ur-Quan once knew of friendship and alliance.
I hope that we will come to know it again." - Master 3781.
Brian Trosko
: (chuckle) Gee, Brian, maybe if they've killed this thread, they're
: not interested in the entire copyright discussion?
Let's face it; the majority of these "T$R sucks, D00DZ," eventually
degenerate into namecalling. Fun as this may be, it does tend to
spell the end of useful discussion in that thread. But sometimes, as
in this case, something useful comes out of the thread, but most
people have already decided to ignore all the dross, so even if they
are interested, they miss all the good stuff. This was my point.
:
: But, I admit, you have a point, so I'll be starting a new thread
: about the revised disclaimer.
Thanks muchly.
Terry Austin
>Of course, the whole problem stems from the belief that TSR's opinions of
>what constitutes its 'property' goes a bit further than the law allows
>for. Ponder this: If TSR is taking the only possible measures to protect
>their properties, and if they took lesser steps they would leave
>themselves open to widespread theft, then what exactly are SJG, FASA, et
>al, thinking? One would assume that those companies have every desire to
>protect their intellectual property as well, since that's a responsible
>business attitude. Why, then, are their policies not as draconian(tm) as
>those of TSR? Did TSR's lawyers just go to a better law school? Or
>could it be that TSR is taking steps that are further than necessary? Hmm?
I can't read minds here, but consider this thought:
Fan written material isn't going to attract many people to gaming.
The most likely effect is to draw people from one game to another.
"Gee--look at Game X! People write some REALLY NEAT adventures for
that. Not like Game Y that we play."
How does this affect gaming companies? Well, TSR controls something
like 70% of the role playing market. So any changes from one game to
another have about a 70% chance of losing TSR a customer and gaining
someone else a customer. The smaller compaines have little chance of
losing customers to this effect, while TSR has a big chance to. It is
in the best interests of the smaller companies to encourage fan
written, derivative material. It is not in TSR interest to do so.
Simple business decisions.
The real question is, just how much legal right does TSR have to
control distribution of this material? But that's what the whole
debate is about, isn't it?
Terry Austin
tau...@ni.net
Terry Austin
>>If it is doesn't my professor violate
>>the textbook companies rights when he posts course material on the campus
>>network?
>Definitely published, but doesn't matter. Free use by a teacher for
>educational purposes. Your posting would be for entertainment purposes,
>unless you were teaching the the class "Roleplaying in the Psychology
>Environment: an examination of roleplaying's effects on the typical human
>psyche, as exmplified by the players of RPG's".
Actually, even professors using copyrighted material for educational
purposes need permission. Technically. Many textbooks may come with
explicit permission for this type of copying. But not all. Many copy
shops near college campuses won't copy textbooks at all anymore,
because there have been a few lawsuits.
Terry Austin
tau...@ni.net
Terry Austin
>: Only on exactly what that intellectual property is.
>(and to what extent it is in their best interests to "protect" it - a
>know a growing number of people who have been alienated by TSR's policies
>and are starting over in other systems)
No argument that TSR has lost some customers. But that is completely
beside the point of this debate. They have the legal right to lose
(drive away) those customers. They have the right to make wrong
decisions. As long as their decisions are within the law, calling
them stupid is pointless.
>Why should people outside the issue make all the decisions - we're on the
>front lines so to speak - wouldn't it be better is TSR and the gaming
>community could hammer out some agreeable comprimise to *make* the
>precidents ourselves. If both sides could talk this out and get a good
>feeling for how to meet each others needs [without fearing that every word
>sets legally binding policy or trying to get away with whatever we/they
>can or killfiling everyone who disagrees with one's position], then
>perhaps we might actually solve this problem.
There's a lot more at stake here than the right to publish AD&D
compatible material. There are actually two issues.
First, just how much of a game can be copyrighted? Gaming may end up
with its own seciton of IP law. Therer are some gray areas here. The
proof is that lawyers on both sides insist the whole thing is cut and
dried. This issue will be resolved by people who are involved in
gaming making reasoned arguments to a judge, or their Congressmen.
Whoever loses will be looking for a second chance.
Second, there is almost no law concerning electronic publishing right
now. It is an evolving issue, with law being written now. This issue
will be resolved by people with a lot more money at stake than TSR.
It will be resovled without any input from the gaming world, unless we
agressively get involved.
Trying to get both sides to "talk this out" is just not too realistic.
Remember, gaming is only a hobby for you. For TSR, it is the living.
Why should they compromise, if they don't have to. Are you going to
explain to their families why Santa isn't coming this Christmas,
because Daddy's Christmas bonus is based on falling sales? That is
how TSR sees this; widespread distribution of derivative material will
reduce their income. It will cost jobs. That is why IP law exists.
Whether you agree with their view or not, you have to accept that it
is their view, and they will act on their beliefs, not yours. "Aw
please, let us do it anyway" is a useless argument. They aren't going
to. They need a way to protect their income (from THEIR point of
view, not yours) that will allow people to distribute their material.
They will not bend on this.
I hope some common ground can be found. But I am beginning to have
doubts.
Terry Austin
tau...@ni.net
Guy Robinson
: Bruce Pierpont <pier...@mitre.org> wrote:
: >> The DMG gave permission and encouragement to create and share with
: >>the people you game with. It _never_ encouraged anyone to _publish_ AD&D
: >Hate to say it but your entering a semantics debate again. Whats the
: >difference between "share with the people you game with" and "publish"? If I
: >write up some material in AD&D format and print out a copy to use in my games
: >is that sharing or publishing?
: The difference is that using the material inside of your campaign is the way
: in which the game was intended to be used, see the arguments re: "Work of
: Utility" awhile back (they're on Mark Toigo's web page). Thus, it doesn't
: qualify as "distribution." and for the purposes of copyright law,
: distribute=publish.
In fact TSR specifically encouraged purchasers of their games, within
the games themselves with varying levels of encouragement, to distribute
this work on a non-profit or fan basis. As the books themselves
encourage this then the Utility of the TSR rule books has been extended.
However despite this granted right of fan distribution we still have to
observe character copyright, copyright and trademark laws but our
ability to distribute legally written works from pre-1994 TSR books
should be respected.
I have sent a set of the guidelines to TSR that I would use in a
hypothetical case where I might seek to share an adventure I wrote and
used in a game at an FTP site with better anonymous access than MPGN.
--
Guy Robinson guy....@rx.xerox.com
[implied disclaimer]
The real meaning of Christmas is a Mid-Winter feast.
Dru A Smith
Sean K Reynolds <TSR...@aol.com> wrote:
>> So what you are admitting, if I read you correctly, is that TSR
>> had a policy throughout the 70s and 80s of encouraging its
>> consumers to freely distribute fan-authored works which were
>> compatible with the AD&D roleplaying game system and which
>> used AD&D-terminology,and then, in 1994, TSR reversed this
>> policy. Is that a fair analysis of events, Sean? Or do you
>> deny the accuracy of this statement?
>
> One more time: TSR gave permission for people to create new AD&D
>materials and share them with the people that they play AD&D with. They
>_never_ gave permission for people to independantly publish these
>materials and release them to the public domain.
I've tried to stay out of this, but here's a loophole I see with this
line of reasoning:
There are plenty of PBEM games on here. Say I put out a call for "PBEM,
unlimited players". Then, after 100's of people send me their character
sketch, I make a bold move as DM and wipe out everyone with a global
disaster.
Now, we've all played together. Unless you want to argue semantics,
I'd have to say that each person who sent a sketch in can honestly say
"I've played AD&D with <insert name of anyone else who put in a character>"
Considering that AD&D requires no board, and is played in the imagination,
I'd say PBEM is a valid way to play AD&D, and who is to judge whether or
not one game session constitutes having played AD&D with someone.
So, now we can all post our ideas on here, since we're only sharing with
those folks we "play AD&D with".
There is, of course, the snag of non-players stealing the ideas from
on here. But is the victim to blame for theft, no matter how unguarded
they leave information? If you argue "yes", then we can get around it
this way:
Create "rec.games.frp.dnd.moderated", where the requirement of submitting
a character sketch is necessary to post on the board.
Anyway, let me just step back and see how well this argument holds up....
Dru Smith
>
>
>- Sean Reynolds
> TSR Online Coordinator
> TSR...@aol.com
> T$R just might be in my killfile. Don't write to my
> personal email - it will be ignored; do I go to your
> house and ask for a Big Mac?
I think this is valid, so long as you STOP using your personal account
to send official (i.e. in the capacity as TSR net-rep) posts to Usenet.
If you continue to use it for company business, you can
bet that folks will treat it as a place to get in touch with TSR. I notice
that this post was made from TSR...@aol.com... I think that all future
posts should follow this pattern.
----------------------------------------------------------------
*** starting 10/1/95, new e-mail: d...@charybdis.ngs.noaa.gov ***
"...all life is only a set of pictures in the brain, among which
there is no difference betwixt those born of real things and
those born of inward dreamings, and no cause to value the one
above the other"
-- H.P. Lovecraft, The Silver Key
kuril...@ftsys1.llnl.gov
Hogwash. If TSR has 70% of the market, then 70% of the fan material would
be *about* TSR products, and therefore attract more people than any other
(using your logic).
If, however, TSR stomps out all fan material, then you're correct. Now that
no TSR fan material is present, they'll actually have more than a 70% chance,
it'll be close to 100% chance!
Using your line of reasoning (that fan material attracts customers) TSR can
only lose customers (and revenue) by stomping out fan material. Hey, I guess
that's what's happening...I suppose you were just looking at it the wrong
way.
- Thomas
Kuril...@ftsd.LLNL.gov
Deanna Hatter
: Ah, but are things posted on the internet and put on ftp sites truly
: _published_?
: -Thomas
In the opinions of the lawyers and agents of several authors, ie Mercedes
Lackey and Marion Zimmer Bradley, yes, it is. The only fan fiction that
Ms Lackey allows on ANY network is Genie, where she and her husband have
accounts and can monitor the fiction that goes on there.
Jason
Sean K Reynolds
> changed before I accept it. As you and Sean have so carefully
> pointed out, this is not a legal forum, and therefore Sean's
> statements about the meaning and intent behind the disclaimer
> don't hold much water.
have posted in another thread, just so you can see it and others will have
something else to put in their kill file.
Let me know your opinions on the disclaimer, please.
- Sean "You can lead a horse to water..." Reynolds
Joel Hahn
> In article <skreynDF...@netcom.com> skr...@netcom.com (Sean K Reynolds) writes:
> > One more time: TSR gave permission for people to create new AD&D
> >materials and share them with the people that they play AD&D with. They
> >_never_ gave permission for people to independantly publish these
> >materials and release them to the public domain.
>
> _published_?
For the purposes of copyright, yes; any distribution="publishing".
For the purposes of getting a toe in the door to become a freelance
writer of stuff for TSR, no.
The two are in no way directly linked, and this has been already
hashed out and explained.
Aardy R. DeVarque
Feudalism: Serf & Turf
Posting from the emergency back-up account
Jeff D. Barnes
: > It is TSR who claims that putting these materials on FTP sites
: > is publication. Not me.
: Ah, so you're a lawyer now? OK, explain to me the legal difference
: between writing an AD&D module and:
: Copying it a thousand times at Kinko's, having it bound and looking
: nice, then leaving stacks of them at hobby shops.
<snip>
: Uploading your ASCII version of the module to several
: anonymous-access ftp sites.
Point of fact: the number of copies has very little to do with what
constitutes copyright or trademark infringement, apart from the concept of
"personal copy" or "backup copy" with regard to copyright. If I make one
copy of an offending document and share it with a friend, it would be
identical with regard to violation, though not with regard to possible
damages owed. Even creating said document with trademarked property is a
violation.
So, Sean/Jim/whoever, where's the distinction? How much distribution
constitutes publishing? If I play a module I designed with 5 friends, is
that a violation? If I share it with 10 friends? 20? 100? 1000?
Where's the dividing line? Is there any distinction between email, FTP,
WWW, and Usenet in TSR's policy? And, most importantly, what case law
and/or precedence does TSR cite to back this up?
And, no, before you ask, I'm not a lawyer (did play one on TV, but that's
another story). However, I have managed to pick up a bit of copyright
and trademark law through being a computer programmer and part-time
writer (as well as those business law classes). Does that make my
opinion worthless to TSR? =)
-Drizzt (never thought my little question would spawn this much talk)
Aardy R. DeVarque
>In article <skreynDF...@netcom.com> TSR...@aol.com writes:
>> One more time: TSR gave permission for people to create new AD&D
>>materials and share them with the people that they play AD&D with. They
>>_never_ gave permission for people to independantly publish these
>>materials and release them to the public domain.
>I'm afraid the distiction is lost on me. It appears that the only thing
>you object to is scale. Its ok for me to give a copy of a(n original) module
>to 10 people, but if I give it to 100, then I've crossed some imaginary line,
>and have published my work. Is there a cut off?
The distinction is that TSR allows you to distribute the stuff you create to
your gaming circle, in the course of running a game. You have to, in order
to be able to play the game, and no one's ever said otherwise on that front.
Simply making copies for friends (or complete strangers) is a different
matter, though, and it is there that the distinction is made. If it's
outside of a game you're running or running in, then you've distributed the
work in a way other than allowed by TSR without permission (such as that
granted to distribute it w/ a disclaimer through licensed ftp sites)
>If its ok for me to create original works, why is it not ok to share that
>work with the world at large if I want to? If you *really* objected to
>this stuff as much as you claim, the MPGN site would not exist.
They don't object to it existing at *all*, they object to it being made
available to the world at large without their permission; something that
isn't really unreasonable (however, the list of what they seem to think
requires permission is a different story).
Aardy R. DeVarque
Feudalism: Serf & Turf
Aaaaaahhhhh... back to a real newserver. :)
Aardy R. DeVarque
>Veggie Boy (skr...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: > It is TSR who claims that putting these materials on FTP sites
>: > is publication. Not me.
>
>: Ah, so you're a lawyer now? OK, explain to me the legal difference
>: between writing an AD&D module and:
>: Copying it a thousand times at Kinko's, having it bound and looking
>: nice, then leaving stacks of them at hobby shops.
><snip>
>: Uploading your ASCII version of the module to several
>: anonymous-access ftp sites.
>Point of fact: the number of copies has very little to do with what
>constitutes copyright or trademark infringement, apart from the concept of
>"personal copy" or "backup copy" with regard to copyright. If I make one
>copy of an offending document and share it with a friend, it would be
>identical with regard to violation, though not with regard to possible
>damages owed. Even creating said document with trademarked property is a
>violation.
>So, Sean/Jim/whoever, where's the distinction? How much distribution
>constitutes publishing?
Umm... He never said that a certain amount of distribution is required to
constitute publishing. He was apparently equating putting a file on an
anonymous FTP site to making a number (any number will do, he picked 1000)
of photocopies and handing them out free at every gaming store within 6
counties of your home.
The problem of infringement occurs with just one copy
distributed/published/whatever-sysnonym-you-feel-like-using without
permission (when permission is required), and Sean knows that just as well
as anyone else here. (Right Sean? ... Sean? ;) )
*HOWEVER*, for purposes of submitting material to TSR as freelance work,
"publish" pretty much equals "on paper". Yes, this is different from the
definition of "publish" used when discussing copyright. So what? They're
allowed to limit their writers' guidelines to whatever they want and define
them however they want.
> Is there any distinction between email, FTP,
>WWW, and Usenet in TSR's policy?
TSR has decided that it will allow any distribution of material that would
otherwise require the disclaimer on derivative copyright grounds through
Usenet. They also admit (IIRC, please correct if I'm wrong) that e-mail is
unpoliceable, but that doesn't make a difference, technically. FTP and WWW
are limited to TSR-licensed sites, of which there is currently one FTP site
and no WWW sites (but that is soon to change...).
>And, most importantly, what case law
>and/or precedence does TSR cite to back this up?
The case law is Title 17 of the US Code (look it up, if you haven't already)
which says that derivative works may not be distributed except as allowed by
the owner of the copyright of the original work. Whether electronic or on
paper doesn't matter. TSR has allowed distribution via Usenet, but limits
FTP & WWW (also e-mail and paper, but they really can't do much about those,
now can they); admittedly, their original reasoning for allowing Usenet was
most likely faulty, but the end result is that they allow it, period.
>-Drizzt (never thought my little question would spawn this much talk)
Enh; this topic has been raging for over a year straight now. Unless you
asked the question in August of 1994, you merely started another thread on a
variation of the same ol' topic.
"Since I gave up hope I feel a lot better"
--Steve Taylor
Aardy R. DeVarque
> There are plenty of PBEM games on here. Say I put out a call for "PBEM,
>unlimited players". Then, after 100's of people send me their character
>sketch, I make a bold move as DM and wipe out everyone with a global
>disaster.
> Now, we've all played together.
>those folks we "play AD&D with".
Except that you can *already* freely distribute these things on Usenet,
which is one reason D&D material/fiction/etc. still appears on
rec.games.frp.archives on a very regular basis.
But if you were to set up a private ftp site, to which only people who gamed
with you could have the password, then I can see some interesting points
here.
"Since I gave up hope, I feel a lot better"
Matt Hurd
it's something i'm thinking of doing in the very near future.
have fun,
matt h.
--
matt hurd (m...@awds17.wx.gtegsc.com)
"I am not a man ... I am a magician |"Come dance with the West Wind and touch
without magic, and that's no one | all the mountain tops. Sail over the
at all." - Schmendrick the Magician| canyons and up to the stars." - j. denver
Sean K Reynolds
(and I always think of Motley Crue when I see your name...)
> If it is a limited access FTP site, then what's the difference between
> this and a couple of my friends?
If the only people that can access it are the ones you game with, then
that's fine. For example, I run a PBEM. I have never met any of my
players. They are scattered all over the U.S.A. We have been playing for
almost 2 years now. I can share new monsters, NPC's, spells (although my
magic system doesn't use packaged AD&D spells), and magic items with them
because they are people that I play my game with. I can email these things
to them, or I can set up a directory on my ftp with access restricted only
to them. Either way is OK.
- Sean Reynolds
TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com
Sean K Reynolds
: You see that?! They've got censors that edit the posts! So it can
Not quite sure what happened to the end of that ... it was suppsed to end with
"bathe me in its gentle invisible radiations while I work on my computer."
--
Sean K Reynolds | "I took a beating when you wrote me those letters, and
a.k.a. Veggie Boy | "And every time I remembered the taste of your lip gloss"
skr...@netcom.com | 'Enid'
skr...@aol.com | - BareNaked Ladies
Sean K Reynolds
: So, Sean/Jim/whoever, where's the distinction? How much distribution
: constitutes publishing? If I play a module I designed with 5 friends, is
: that a violation? If I share it with 10 friends? 20? 100? 1000?
: Where's the dividing line?
share this with people that you have been or will be playing AD&D with? Or
is your intent to distribute it outside that group?
: Is there any distinction between email, FTP,
: WWW, and Usenet in TSR's policy?
However, TSR is currently considering unsenet news as "discussion," and will
probably continue to do so until people start trying to use it as a form of
distribution.
: And, most importantly, what case law
: and/or precedence does TSR cite to back this up?
You can reach her at:
Connie Lindman
TSR, Inc.
201 Sheridan Springs Rd.
Lake Geneva, WI
53147
: However, I have managed to pick up a bit of copyright
: and trademark law through being a computer programmer and part-time
: writer (as well as those business law classes). Does that make my
: opinion worthless to TSR? =)
will slap their collective foreheads in amazement when you speak. :) As
this is not a legal forum, legal issues cannot be decided here; your
credentials or lack thereof are not going to change TSR policy by comments
here. Such revelations should be sent to TSR's lawyer (address above).
Note that the opinions of the netters _are_ important to TSR. It is
the opinions and questions of the netters that have gotten clarifications to
several key issues, such as some generic terms and the ability to legally
reference a TSR trademark. Don't think that just because I say "This is not
a legal forum" means that you aren't being heard.
Michael Sandy
the magic system isn't easy for AD&D is neither easy nor productive.
I mean, you could construct a variant of psionics for both Warlockry and
Witchcraft, with different disciplines. The limitation on Warlockry in
the series, being called to Aldagmor would pose a problem in both low
and high level campaigns. In low level ones it is either irrelevant
because of its distance, and at high ones your character is doomed just
when it is getting interesting.
As a campaign history, with a huge war between empires with different
philosophies towards magic I think there is a lot of potential.
More later.
Michael Sandy
Sean K Reynolds
in my world's mages, and used my magic system to customize wizards
of different types. It's kinda neat. I'd post more about it right now,
but I have to catch a plane in 45 minutes....
--
Sean K Reynolds a.k.a. Veggie Boy skr...@netcom.com skr...@aol.com
Tech Support: "Are you running this under Windows?"
Customer: "No, I'm running it under File Manager."
Sean K Reynolds
> There are plenty of PBEM games on here. Say I put out a call for "PBEM,
> unlimited players". Then, after 100's of people send me their character
> sketch, I make a bold move as DM and wipe out everyone with a global
> disaster.
And then the game is over, and the people that _were_ gaming with you
are no longer gaming with you.
> I notice
> that this post was made from TSR...@aol.com... I think that all future
> posts should follow this pattern.
Through the wonders of modern technology, I have fooled you. That post
(like this one) was made from my personal Netcom account (I haven't posted
from AOL since July 13), with the reply-to: header directed to my TSR account.
- Sean Reynolds
TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com
T$R just might be in my killfile. Don't write to my
personal email - it will be ignored; do I go to your
house and ask for an IRA consultation?
Dru A Smith
>
>> There are plenty of PBEM games on here. Say I put out a call for "PBEM,
>> unlimited players". Then, after 100's of people send me their character
>> sketch, I make a bold move as DM and wipe out everyone with a global
>> disaster.
>
> And then the game is over, and the people that _were_ gaming with you
>are no longer gaming with you.
Semantics, semantics. If you can't take one example and extrapolate
to cover others, then we aren't going to get anywhere. Let's try again:
If I play at home with folks and we stop playing, how long must pass
before I can no longer give them my homemade modules?
Once you define a number, please explain how you arrived at it.
If you cannot define a number, then I beg you to tell me why I can no longer
give my homemade modules to my "PBEM" group that is all dead (but, perhaps
waiting for our "next game").
What's the difference between "were playing" and "are playing, but are
between game sessions right now"?
>> I notice
>> that this post was made from TSR...@aol.com... I think that all future
>> posts should follow this pattern.
>
> Through the wonders of modern technology, I have fooled you. That post
>(like this one) was made from my personal Netcom account (I haven't posted
>from AOL since July 13), with the reply-to: header directed to my TSR account.
Fine. As long as you keep up a front that LOOKS like you're posting
from your work account. Along the same lines as your old sig:
If you're not wearing a McDonald's uniform, how do I know I'm getting
a Big Mac?
Dru Smith
p.s. my new e-mail works, but the mail reader isn't so that's why I'm
posting from the old account.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Fury
On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Veggie Boy wrote:
>
> OK, that little plant that the Grateful Dead uses on a lot of its
> album covers and such? Well, add that to the list of "flowers to not eat."
>
Is this a complex way of calling someone a sheep?