Half-Fiend Ogre Mage - Too Much?
decalod85
PCs.
I have created an opponent for them to face: a half-fiend Ogre Mage.
For fun,
I also gave him 4 levels of fighter.
The ECL comes out to 20, the CR is 14. He has spell resistance 19, AC
26,
DR 5/Magic, regeneration 5, and resistance to fire, acid, electricity
and cold
of 10. He can fly or turn invisible at will, and does 3d6+16 with
his
greatsword + 2d6 unholy damage vs good. I don't want to talk about
what
will happen if he manages a critical hit. He also has a 9d6 cone of
cold
SLA, and a few other miscellaneous spells. He has 10 foot reach,
combat
reflexes, and a decent base attack bonus. I set him up with the
spring
attack tree, so he can jump in, hit hard, move back.
Now, I realize the DR will be bypassed as all PCs have a magic
weapon,
and he is not immune to fire (flame strike and fireball). Do you
think he will
be too much for the party, or not enough?
This is a big moment in the campaign. This guy has returned after a
long
absence and is looking for payback. I want it to be scary and tough,
but I
do not want a TPK.
Keith Davies
> I have a party with a mix of 1 12th lvl, 2 13th lvl and 3 14th lvl
> PCs.
>
> I have created an opponent for them to face: a half-fiend Ogre Mage.
> For fun, I also gave him 4 levels of fighter.
>
> The ECL comes out to 20, the CR is 14. He has spell resistance 19, AC
> 26, DR 5/Magic, regeneration 5, and resistance to fire, acid,
> electricity and cold of 10. He can fly or turn invisible at will, and
> does 3d6+16 with his greatsword + 2d6 unholy damage vs good. I don't
> want to talk about what will happen if he manages a critical hit. He
> also has a 9d6 cone of cold SLA, and a few other miscellaneous spells.
> He has 10 foot reach, combat reflexes, and a decent base attack bonus.
> I set him up with the spring attack tree, so he can jump in, hit hard,
> move back.
>
> Now, I realize the DR will be bypassed as all PCs have a magic weapon,
> and he is not immune to fire (flame strike and fireball). Do you
> think he will be too much for the party, or not enough?
In short, I don't think that ogre mage is too much. In fact, if the PCs
have the chance to pin him down he'll hardly be a speedbump.
In order:
SR 19 - pretty easy, 5+ on d20
AC 26 - pretty easy, fighter will hit on 12+ *without*
considering Strength, weapon focus, magic weapons,
assorted other buffs
DR 5/magic - embarassingly easy at this level, hardly worth mentioning
regen 5 - okay, now you're getting somewhere... but he's got, what,
*9 hit dice*? Even giving him +6 for Con, he's still
going to have only about 130-140 hit points. When you
can expect to suck down 30 points of damage per hit --
and at 14th level that's probably true -- regen 5 isn't
going to help much. It might keep him around another
round or two.
energy resistance - this'll help, but by this point getting >10
points of energy damage is *trivial*. Even if they don't
just nuke him, hammering him until he drops and then
pouring some fire on will take care of it.
(Sp) - /invisibility/ + /fly/ at will are about the only thing
that'll keep him alive... but he's going to have a tough
time taking advantage of it. He'll be an annoyance
because his best option is sniping -- once the party
actually *sees* him they're going to start spanking. The
cone of cold averages about 30 points of damage *before*
the save (which much of the party should make); it's
hardly worth worrying about.
greatsword - nice damage, but the PCs should be able to do at least as
well. The critical is only 6d6+32 (about 50 points; they
should be able to handle this pretty easily). Oh, and
+2d6 more if the target is good.
> This is a big moment in the campaign. This guy has returned after a
> long absence and is looking for payback. I want it to be scary and
> tough, but I do not want a TPK.
Honestly? I don't think this'll be a serious threat to a APL 14 party.
Of course, CR = APL isn't supposed to be a big threat.
The party you described, I would consider about the equivalent of a 15th
or 16th level 'canonical' (four-member) party. This monster is probably
easier than you want for a 'scary and tough' fight.
He'd probably be 'scary and tough' for a four-member, 12th-level party.
This? If they can pin him down (and his use of the spring attack tree
would be close enough) I expect it'll last maybe three rounds, including
the barbecue to make sure he stays dead.
Not what I'd want in a major confrontation.
What would I do? Let's take it in order.
1. PC party is probably about as powerful as a four-member 16th-level
party. A 'scary and tough' encounter is EL=APL+4 (at this level you
should expect casualties but -- since you've got six PCs -- probably
not TPK). Let's aim for EL 19 or so.
2. single monster vs. six PCs? Wormfood, even if three of them weren't
about as tough as it is suppose to be.
3. ogre mage is kind of underpowered for its CR (there was an analysis
done at WotC where they reviewed it... the various abilities all bump
the CR, but they aren't very coherent and don't interact really well
for it).
I realize you're more or less stuck with ogre mage, and probably the
template (inherited... it *can* be added later under some circumstances
but he probably started that way). Go ahead and leave the template and
the four levels of fighter (spellcaster levels would be a waste unless
you consider them unassociated -- 6 levels of sorcerer might help, but
he'll still be outcast by the party casters).
Hmm. Four levels of *monk* rather than fighter might be better, though.
The bumps to all saves will help, evasion, nice damage (2d8 for large
Monk4 IIRC, +Str mod), bonus feats (may want to examine the monk
variants, though there's *nothing* wrong with grapple, fly, drop as a
tactic).
Yeah, I think I'd do monk instead of fighter. It'll cost him one feat
(and constrain the other two), one point of BAB and about four hit
points (yawn) but get him some useful bennies. Monk3 gives all the bits
we're interested in (he's already got the equivalent of Ki Strike from
his DR, but you might consider giving him the next level -- treat as
lawful -- at this point), but let's stick with four levels. This puts
him on par with the highest-level party member.
So. Half-fiend Ogre Mage Monk 4. CR14, more or less. If we want to
get the encounter up to about EL19, we're going to need 5 more from
somewhere. Let's give him one more class level (fighter, for the feat?
Monk5 gets him nothing interesting). Or 'Elite array', instead of
standard ability scores... but the latter may already have been decided.
Half-fiend Ogre Mage Monk 4/Ftr1. CR 15. (SR 20 -- '10 + HD')
Minions and allies are probably the best choice. There are six PCs to
occupy. If we go with four CR13-types, that gives us EL17 or so from
that, which gets bumped to EL18 with the addition of the ogre mage. It
also gives five figures against six, which is *way* more fair.
You could find four CR13 guys, but that's too close to par with the
party members. Let's back them off a bit, but keep them credible
threats. CR12+CR10 teams (four pairs whose members complement each
others' abilities) seem like a good match -- not *big* threats, but
shouldn't be ignored, either. Don't forget the flanking rules.
Or you could go with two such teams, plus four CR11 guys. This would
give you six sets to occupy the PCs and leave the ogre mage free to
snipe at them, where he should be (spring in, *smack*, spring out... if
you plan it right then chasing him will provoke AoOs left and right, and
if the spacing's right then area effect attacks might catch the PCs
too).
So, what do we have to work with in the CR10-12 range? Where has the
ogre mage been for the last while? What sorts of minions would make
sense?
Devils! Of course. Some might want class levels. If you add levels of
Monk, no more than four unless you want to suggest a mentor/student
relationship (which could be good if it leads to the next story arc; I
probably wouldn't do it).
CR Devil
11 Barbed
5 Bearded
9 Bone
6 Chain <-- in the right environment this would kick so much ass
8 Erinyes <-- doesn't fit how I see this encounter working
7 Hellcat <-- good 'partner', I think, after beefing up
16 Horned <-- too powerful
13 Ice <-- consider as the singles I mentioned
2 Imp <-- pfft. Not likely
1 Lemure <-- tchyeah, right
20 Pit fiend <-- tempting, but no
Now, it depends what associations the ogre mage has in Hell. A mixed
team could prove most interesting, but probably a pain in the ass to
run.
The ogre mage + two ice devils would push things to an EL17 encounter,
probably still a little weaker than you want. Adding two pairs of
CR12+CR10 would bring this to about EL18, four pairs would make it EL19.
A nice, stiff fight, more or less parity between groups (which means
you're approaching the top of end of where you want to be, I think --
TPK is not unlikely now).
CR Monster
15 1 Ogre Mage
15 2 Ice Devils
15 2 teams (two of either the first one or the second one)
Kyton (Chain Devil) advanced to CR12 -- +12HD (and four feats,
yummy... Improved Trip has *got* to be in there somewhere)
Hellcat advanced to CR10 -- +4HD and Huge size (you could also
do +6HD, but I think the size bump might be more useful).
- this team has 'threatened areas' written all over it,
especially if the Kytons scatter spiked chains around, plus
flanking joy.
2 Erinyes advanced to CR11 -- +6HD, probably (+2 feats)
- this team has 'ranged attacks and mobility' all over
I'd probably go with the Kyton/Hellcat teams. Flanking, really
impressive area of control, nicely spread out so area attacks aren't
*that* useful to the PCs. Supports mobility by the others (chasing them
provokes AoO *all over* -- Kytons really, *really* want Combat Reflexes
and Improved Trip).
Using the Erinyes team would require a highly mobile fight which has
it's own appeal, but doesn't lend itself really well to confrontation.
The above is apparently about an EL18 encounter. Pretty stiff for the
party (effective APL+2, but +4 compared to PC levels). None of the
'expected matchups' are *too* threatening (you have, basically, 'five on
six', with each team being about EL13 -- the 12th-level guy might be in
trouble if he has to get directly involved, unless he tanks up well).
Hrm. Actually, the above analysis depends a fair amount on the tactical
ability of your players. If they blithely charge in they're going to
get mulched. You might want to consider (if appropriate) softening
things a bit by staggering participants entering the fight. I wouldn't,
if the PCs have any chance of escaping before TPK (which at their level
they *should*... if they don't have plans to run away then they've never
needed them, and that's a damn shame).
If the above looks too stiff, you might drop the ice devils altogether
(but that takes away most of the ranged options for the bad guys),
reduce the kytons and hellcats by one CR (-2HD) but double them. That
would mean you'd have
CR Monster
15 1 Ogre Mage
15 4 Kytons advanced to CR11 (+10HD)
14 4 Hellcats advanced to CR9 (+4HD, no size bump)
This is somewhere between EL17 and EL18, gives nine figures to the PCs'
six figures. The ogre mage is clearly more powerful than the rest, the
kytons set things up nicely for a high-mobility fight -- they allow the
hellcats and the ogre mage can move fairly freely around the battlefield
but the PCs can't (unless and until they drop the kytons).
Maybe split the difference. Ogre mage, 1 ice devil, 3 kytons and 3
hellcats (or maybe 2 hellcats). That makes for 7 figures vs. 6 and
provides a nice mix of ranged and melee ability. The PCs *have* to
close to deal with it (the devils have good resistances, SR, and good
saves -- magic's not going to be so useful).
Keith
--
Keith Davies "Sometimes my brain is a very strange
keith....@kjdavies.org to live in."
keith....@gmail.com -- Dana Smith
http://www.kjdavies.org/
Mark verison 1969
<keith....@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
>Keith
Keith, your post was one of sheer beauty.
sw
> 8 Erinyes <-- doesn't fit how I see this encounter working
>
One thing which would fit the "monk" style thing would be to alter the
pair of Erinyes. Erinyes get Dodge and Mobility for free. So drop her
archery feats and replace her four standard ones with Spring Attack,
Elusive Target, Combat Reflexes and... there's a feat in Fiendish Codex
II where you get to take an attack of opportunity against Supernatural
abilities, which don't normally provoke.
THEN give her some class levels or more hit dice.
Give the other one the same tricks and Marshall levels. =D 20 Charisma
means that a Marshall minor aura will give +5 to whatever she's choosing
to buff. Motivate Dexterity is a good one - +5 to init to make sure the
bad guys don't get caught flat-footed. The devils probably won't matter
too much flat-footed but you certainly don't want the Ogre Mage getting
awful initiative and getting popped by the PCs somehow before he gets a
chance to act. The minor aura where you add your Charisma bonus to
flanking is another good one. Since you're giving her 2 class levels,
give her a major aura as well. +1 to all saves for example.
This makes the pair of them really hard to kill, which is what you want.
It's not that they do a lot of damage, it's that they're a pain to get
past to the real villain. The main threat is if the party doesn't know
what Elusive Target does and ends up hitting each other...
With Elusive Target they can anchor the flanking for the whole rest of
the devil group, and being totally immune to Power Attack from their
dodge target means none of this "well I'll just blow through their
pathetic damage reduction" stuff.
And the passive nature of their abilities means that they don't
overshadow the showy butt-kicking the boss villain is handing out.
--
--- An' thou dost not get caught, do as thou wilt shall be the law ---
"Religion disperses like a fog, kingdoms perish, but the works of
scholars remain for an eternity." - Ulughbek
Keith Davies
Thank you.
It's almost entirely by the book, too. I did make a couple of minor
mistakes with the kyton. Kytons don't qualify for Improved Trip
because of stupid (I'm tempted to make that a bonus feat for kytons
anyway) and kyton advancement only goes up to 16HD 'officially', so it'd
be the CR10 monster rather than the CR12 monster... the Hellcats could
be a CR12 monsters instead.
I'm sure that would make the players feel better.
Keith Davies
> On 2007-03-21, Keith Davies <keith....@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>> 8 Erinyes <-- doesn't fit how I see this encounter working
>>
>> 2 Erinyes advanced to CR11 -- +6HD, probably (+2 feats)
>
> One thing which would fit the "monk" style thing would be to alter the
> pair of Erinyes. Erinyes get Dodge and Mobility for free. So drop her
> archery feats and replace her four standard ones with Spring Attack,
> Elusive Target, Combat Reflexes and... there's a feat in Fiendish Codex
> II where you get to take an attack of opportunity against Supernatural
> abilities, which don't normally provoke.
>
> THEN give her some class levels or more hit dice.
Hmm. Well. That's nicely vicious. Drop the hellcats, use advanced
kytons and these erinyes.
I'm trying to stay more or less within RSRD (if only because I'm too
lazy to go upstairs and fetch the other books; I have RSRD handy at the
computer), so I won't use all the suggestions -- I like 'em, though.
So, Erinyes, drop archery feats and replace with Spring Attack, Combat
Reflexes, EWP(spiked chain)[1], ... there is a certain dark attraction
to Whirlwind attack, too (threatening everything in 10').
[1] ties in with the kytons/chain theme, and with six AoO/round + good
mobility I want them to be able to attack with and without reach
Erinyes, replace four feats. +8 HD (advancement by HD) makes it 'CR12'.
This also adds two feats (12 and 15 HD) and should give 2 ability bumps.
Str 22 and Dex 22, perhaps? For the feats I'd look at either Power
Attack (spiked chains are two-handed weapons) and $something, or Combat
Expertise and Improved Trip.
Need to also replace gear (+2 weapon, more or less), and look at the
treasure -- CR12 treasure should have something useful.
Combine this with the CR10 kytons and you've got a whole lot of chaining
going on. Lots of mobility-type activity, lots of movement suppression
against the PCs. Nice, tough monsters that'll be hard to bring down,
but the devils don't do all that much damage themselves (compared to
other creatures of similar level).
Something I wondered about: ogre mage using invisibility on the kytons,
then the kytons using dancing chains rather than attacking directly.
Would this end the invisibility? Or could you have invisible kytons
walking around and using dancing chains against people?
So,
CR Monster
15 ogre mage monk4/ftr1
14 two erinyes (advanced to CR12 - 17 HD)
12 two kytons (advance to CR10 - 16 HD)
All together, 'EL17' (12+14=15,15+15=17). Two hellcats advanced to CR13
(+10HD, size bump) would bring this to EL18. Seven on six, credible but
manageable threats, some good synergy between the monsters. Not a lot
by way of ranged attacks, but the hellcats would make *good* marauders
(invisible in light, and pounce, so they'd be pretty good at handling
those away from the main fight *cough*spellcasters*cough*). The various
devils could engage the PCs, leaving the ogre mage free to take part
wherever he sees fit.
Encounter setup: party meets ogre mage and his 'girlfriends'. Area has
been seeded with chains, kytons and hellcats are invisible. Initial
confrontation happens, hellcats and kytons position themselves. When
the fight starts, *bad stuff* goes on.
What, you expect them to fight fair?
I get the impression adding the hellcats and the tactics described might
be a bit much for the players... it'd fly just fine in some groups that
are used to this sort of thing (mine are learning, heh), but if they've
mostly had straightforward fights against single creatures this is going
to come as something of a shock.
> And the passive nature of their abilities means that they don't
> overshadow the showy butt-kicking the boss villain is handing out.
That's a problem I'm having in preparing this -- keeping the devils from
upstaging the ogre mage. I think I'm skirting the edge of it now, but
the theme of the encounter seems to work well, I don't want to mess with
it too much.
decalod85
[wow]
That's pretty cool. I will probably use demons instead of
devils, as I am integrating my campaign with "Savage Tide"
from Dungeon. Who would have thought that they would
run their own Isle of Dread campaign at almost the same
time I had started one? I like the plot, and have found a
good place to integrate the story lines, with a few simple
substitutions.
The ogre mage is a pirate that the PCs put out of business
in the first session, (they started at 8th level a few years
back) and he has popped up a couple of times. They haven't
seen him in a while, and he has been picking up the fighter
levels slowly but surely while joining up with a new group of
bad guys. His new buddies made him captain, and turned
him into a half-fiend through a horrible ritual. Ogre mages
are known for their "deep, abiding grudges".
I doubt that I would go as high as CR 19 with this encounter,
as it takes place at the end of a fairly large battle, and I think
they will be somewhat worn down. 17 sounds pretty reasonable,
so I'll add an extra fighter level and a gaggle of high-level
piratical cohorts. Granted, this will not be as cool as what you
suggested, but it fits the campaign pretty well.
Keith Davies
>
> That's pretty cool. I will probably use demons instead of
> devils,
I chose devils because ogre mages are usually LE. If he still is,
devils would be a better fit than demons.
If you want to use demons instead:
CR Monster
6 Babau
20 Balor
10 Bebilith
2 Dretch
13 Glabrezu
11 Hezrou
17 Marilith
14 Nalfeshnee
2 Quasit
11 Retriever
7 Succubus
9 Vrock
A couple of advanced babau might be interesting (the acidic goo on them
could make for fun. The SR is useless.) +8HD and size bump would make
it CR12, they could be good bruisers here (15HD, +8 Str, d8+9 claw
attacks... not that exciting, but dispel magic and greater teleport --
both at will -- could make for some fun).
The ogre mage and a glabrezu (who is tempting him with power) alone
would make for EL16 (nominally). A glabrezu is more physically imposing
(read: bigger) than the ogre mage, though, and has a fun mix of
spell-like abilities (reverse gravity at will, whee!).
Hezrou, perhaps, without advancement.
Marilith are more powerful than the ogre mage, don't want that
Nalfeshnee is a possible. Bigger than the ogre mage, the call lightning
could be nice. I'd be tempted to extend immunity to the smite to the
ogre mage (half-fiendish/demon, close enough).
Succubus... I could see a succubus consort, but it doesn't seem like a
good fit for a fight here.
Vrock... nah, doesn't seem right.
I think devils would be a better fit for the scene -- as *I* envision
it. If you prefer to use demons I think I can't advise you well on how
to apply them.
> The ogre mage is a pirate that the PCs put out of business
> in the first session, (they started at 8th level a few years
> back) and he has popped up a couple of times. They haven't
> seen him in a while, and he has been picking up the fighter
> levels slowly but surely while joining up with a new group of
> bad guys. His new buddies made him captain, and turned
> him into a half-fiend through a horrible ritual. Ogre mages
> are known for their "deep, abiding grudges".
>
> I doubt that I would go as high as CR 19 with this encounter,
> as it takes place at the end of a fairly large battle, and I think
> they will be somewhat worn down. 17 sounds pretty reasonable,
> so I'll add an extra fighter level and a gaggle of high-level
> piratical cohorts. Granted, this will not be as cool as what you
> suggested, but it fits the campaign pretty well.
Five levels of fighter?
Hmm. What about barbarian (fast movement, rage, uncanny dodge (improved
if he gets Bbn5)), or two levels of barbarian and three levels of rogue (fast
movement, rage, uncanny dodge, +2d6 sneak attack (spring in to flank,
sneak, spring out), evasion)? Or Bbn1/Rog4 (fast movement, rage,
uncanny dodge, +2d6 sneak attack, improved uncanny dodge).
I like that one, and it seems it could fit the character fairly well.
He's devious, but has been bent by the ritual that made him
half-fiendish (rage), and tougher too.
RAW, he would get (on top of the normal ogre mage stuff):
+4 BAB
+3 Fort
+4 Ref
+1 Will <-- with bennies while raging, or consider Iron Will
+d10+4d6 + 5Con hp
Hmm. He probably (with the right skill choices) qualifies for Assassin.
Doesn't seem quite right though.
Three levels of fighter could get him into Blackguard (needs +3 more BAB
than a plain ogre mage). Blackguard2 would get him aura of evil,
/detect good/, poison use, Dark Blessing (what's his Cha like?), smite
good.
... nah. While I think an ogre mage assassin could be *interesting*, I
don't think it right for this character. Bbn1/Rog4 could make a good
choice, though. Better than fighter, I think, and if he's no longer
lawful he wouldn't make a good monk.
After this, fiendish (not half-fiend) minions of some sort would be
appropriate. Try to keep the CRs of the individual monsters in the
10-13 range -- they need to be credible threats, without upstaging the
ogre mage).
Where are you planning to have the encounter (generally)? If it's
onboard a ship you'd probably be looking for a different mix of
creatures than if it's ashore, or in a cavern.
Werebat
Warshaper?
- Ron ^*^
Werebat
Mark verison 1969 wrote:
Indeed it was, I was just throwing an idea out there.
- Ron ^*^
Dragonkat
Please note what a 16 HD Half-Fiend can do...
Would this be dangerous but not TPK???
Dragonkat
Jasin Zujovic
Crusader?
Swordsage?
Warblade?
--
Jasin Zujovic
Dragonkat
>
> Crusader?
>
> Swordsage?
>
> Warblade?
>
> --
> Jasin Zujovic--
These three classes are from Tome of Battle/The Nine Swords
All three have access to Maneuvers & Stances, a kind of battle
magic that regenerates between encounters, based on three
principles of spirit, mind, & body.
It is plausable that the Half-Fiend Ogre Magi has rounded up
other Ogre Magi w/class lvls (Sor 5+5; Ftr4/Sor 5+1;Rog5)
besides Infernal help (3 Krytons & an Imp, for example), &
Poison, etc.
Dragonkat
Werebat
Wouldn't Kryton be a Warforged? I'm guessing the Cat would be a shifter...
Anyway, your idea reminds me of one of my favorite 2nd Edition Dungeon
adventures, from the issue with the minotaur on the cover, where a group
of Ogre Magi are the villains making ambushes in a mountain pass with
the help of a young dragon.
- Ron ^*^
Keith Davies
It'd certainly be a lot more powerful than what the OP suggested. The
half-fiend ogre mage is (nominally) CR10 alone. Give him 11 class
levels and he's going to be a lot more dangerous.
Dragonkat
> Dragonkat <dragonkat2fl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > How about a Half-Fiend Ogre Magi Monk8/Sor+3?
> > Please note what a 16 HD Half-Fiend can do...
> > Would this be dangerous but not TPK???
>
> It'd certainly be a lot more powerful than what the OP suggested. The
> half-fiend ogre mage is (nominally) CR10 alone. Give him 11 class
> levels and he's going to be a lot more dangerous.
>
> Keith
> --
> Keith Davies "Sometimes my brain is a very strange
> keith.dav...@gmail.com -- Dana Smithhttp://www.kjdavies.org/
Thanks for the rebuke, it would be ALOT more dangerous.
Keith Davies
> On Mar 23, 2:21 pm, Keith Davies <keith.dav...@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>> Dragonkat <dragonkat2fl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > How about a Half-Fiend Ogre Magi Monk8/Sor+3?
>> > Please note what a 16 HD Half-Fiend can do...
>> > Would this be dangerous but not TPK???
>>
>> It'd certainly be a lot more powerful than what the OP suggested. The
>> half-fiend ogre mage is (nominally) CR10 alone. Give him 11 class
>> levels and he's going to be a lot more dangerous.
>
I'm curious about your notation, though. Monk8/Sor+3?
What's the '+3'?
Actually, I suspect this wouldn't *truly* be a CR21 creature (or CR20 if
you discount the sorcerer levels as unrelated). Ogre mage and monk work
pretty nicely together, especially with the half-fiend in there, but the
ogre mage is fairly fragile (base HD are only half the CR; it'll have
only about 50 hit points on average... and at 10th level a party can do
that pretty easily). The monk levels go well with ogre mage, I think,
but would mean that tactically it needs to get in close -- monks get
bugger all for ranged abilities -- which will mean lots of opportunities
to get squished.
With regard to the OP, this one creature *might* actually be a
manageable fight. A single creature against a mob that size, especially
a fragile one like this, would probably get a few rounds of fighting in
before it died, tops. If it went for a straight-up fight.
Hence my reasoning of giving it some minions to occupy the PCs. Keep
the PCs off the ogre mage so it can dish out some damage (and to give it
a chance to run if needed), keep things going for a while. Major
confrontations shouldn't be over in a few messy rounds.
... I *so* want to run this one some time. I'm going to have to write
it up. Ogre mage monk + kytons + (hellcats or melee erinyes), probably.
Keith
--
Keith Davies "Sometimes my brain is a very strange
none
> Actually, I suspect this wouldn't *truly* be a CR21 creature (or CR20 if
> you discount the sorcerer levels as unrelated). Ogre mage and monk work
> pretty nicely together, especially with the half-fiend in there, but the
> ogre mage is fairly fragile (base HD are only half the CR; it'll have
> only about 50 hit points on average... and at 10th level a party can do
> that pretty easily). The monk levels go well with ogre mage, I think,
> but would mean that tactically it needs to get in close -- monks get
> bugger all for ranged abilities -- which will mean lots of opportunities
> to get squished.
Anytime you build a wizard or sorcerer NPC, he's not going to live up to
his CR unless he's played intelligently by the DM. He's going to have
divinations in place to warn him when attacks are coming. He'll have his
buffs in place and his minions summoned by the time the PCs are within
bow range. He'll use spell completion items from cover and direct his
minions to concentrate on other spell casters. He won't close until
absolutely necessary, then only on his home turf. Known offensive spells
for a Monk/Sorcerer will be split between those that compensate for his
weakness at ranged combat and those that capitalize on his ability at
unarmed combat. Remember, summoned creatures are already figured into
the CR for spell casters.
Another idea would be to take two Monk levels off the build and make two
of the creatures. Same nominal CR, but PCs get a real nasty surprise
when they cluster around one HFOM only find out that he's got a Greater
Ring of Energy Resistance (Fire) and his brother has a Wand of
Fireballs. OK, that's probably a TPK, but you get the idea. The Fireball
Wand is probably attainable for a CR21 build. Used from cover, it's just
a dirty trick with or without the wrinkle of adding the second creature
with the ring. Just leave 5-10 charges so that this bad boy doesn't end
up as a one trick pony.
Good luck,
Chris