So what's the popular view on Gygax?
Telendil Silverleaf
community, universally loved, or somewhere in between?
Everything I've read about him seems to indicate that he resembles a
large pink organ of phallic dimensions.
mad...@grandecom.net
Telendil Silverleaf wrote:
> I'm kind of confused. Is he universally despised by the gaming
> community, universally loved, or somewhere in between?
Yes.
--
Jay Knioum
The Mad Afro
chaos...@gmail.com
He's very divisive. Basically, he pioneered the "DM is God, and should
demonstrate this by screwing the players whenever possible" style of
gaming. His adventure modules almost invariably have unfair, instakill
traps, many of them undetectable.
Gaming has passed him by. Modern takes on the role of the DM are very
different, and most of us have no wish to return to the bad old days.
But there is a significant minority who _like_ the old ways, for
whatever reason. And that, in a nutshell, is one of the big flamewar
topics around here. :)
Laszlo
No 33 Secretary
news:1125354635....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
>
> Telendil Silverleaf wrote:
>> I'm kind of confused. Is he universally despised by the gaming
>> community, universally loved, or somewhere in between?
>>
>> Everything I've read about him seems to indicate that he resembles a
>> large pink organ of phallic dimensions.
>
> He's very divisive. Basically, he pioneered the "DM is God, and should
> demonstrate this by screwing the players whenever possible" style of
> gaming. His adventure modules almost invariably have unfair, instakill
> traps, many of them undetectable.
>
> Gaming has passed him by. Modern takes on the role of the DM are very
> different, and most of us have no wish to return to the bad old days.
Many of us never had the bad old days. We though Gygax was a pompous prick
then, too.
--
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Campaign Cartographer now available
Ian R Malcomson
chaos...@gmail.com writes
>
>Telendil Silverleaf wrote:
>> I'm kind of confused. Is he universally despised by the gaming
>> community, universally loved, or somewhere in between?
>>
>> Everything I've read about him seems to indicate that he resembles a
>> large pink organ of phallic dimensions.
>
>He's very divisive. Basically, he pioneered the "DM is God, and should
>demonstrate this by screwing the players whenever possible" style of
>gaming. His adventure modules almost invariably have unfair, instakill
>traps, many of them undetectable.
Untrue - blatantly so, if you read the adventures he wrote and the
various accounts of the games he was involved in (Sorcerer's Scroll
etc.) with more than an ounce of applied intelligence. He pioneered a
DM methodology that challenged *players* (rather than characters) in
problem solving within adventure design, and acted as a neutral arbiter
during play (occasionally viciously so). Heck, he pioneered DMing full
stop. The current apparent design philosophy is to challenge
*characters*, and to DM in a way that, if anything, slants a bias
towards PCs.
Even the traps in the notorious Tomb of Horrors can be circumvented by
clever players. The emphasis of 3E takes the game away from the players
towards the characters (viz, players can rely more on the intelligence -
skills, if you will - of their characters, more than their own
problem-solving capabilities).
>Gaming has passed him by. Modern takes on the role of the DM are very
>different, and most of us have no wish to return to the bad old days.
The role of the DM in 3E is different than it was. But to call those
days of yore "bad" is to completely deny that a heck of a lot of us had
a heck of a lot of fun for a heck of a long time before "modern takes"
appeared.
>But there is a significant minority who _like_ the old ways, for
>whatever reason. And that, in a nutshell, is one of the big flamewar
>topics around here. :)
There's a significant group who missed the point then, and continue to
miss the point now - that's the nutshell "bad days/good days" concept.
--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"
Dirk Collins
> I'm kind of confused. Is he universally despised by the gaming
> community, universally loved, or somewhere in between?
>
> Everything I've read about him seems to indicate that he resembles a...
Well... you just proved beyond a reason of a doubt, that you're a
total retard.
quu...@yahoo.com
Ian R Malcomson wrote:
> In message <1125354635....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> chaos...@gmail.com writes
>
Wow. That's the most lucid, logical (and polite!) argument in favor of
that style of gaming I think I've seen.
Nazi.
Dirk Collins
> Telendil Silverleaf wrote:
>>I'm kind of confused. Is he universally despised by the gaming
>>community, universally loved, or somewhere in between?
>
> He's very divisive. Basically, he pioneered the "DM is God, and should
> demonstrate this by screwing the players whenever possible" style of
> gaming. His adventure modules almost invariably have unfair, instakill
> traps, many of them undetectable.
He did not. It's not his fault that many other GM's and players
lacked imagination and had even less initiative to improve the game.
> Gaming has passed him by. Modern takes on the role of the DM are very
> different, and most of us have no wish to return to the bad old days.
Yeah! Roleplaying has been changed into a win-lose proposition,
instead of a win-win proposition for both the players and GM. The
time it takes without good software to prep a fun game is
excrutiating, and storytelling and heroics have been sacrificed in
favor of repetitive mechanics and a mind boggling array of
choices. The Winners; Those you spend the money and take the time
to memorize every arcane rule, optional rule, and variation
thereof. The Losers; The folks that want a simple fun game that
can be played to a reasonable conclusion in just one evening.
>
> But there is a significant minority who _like_ the old ways, for
> whatever reason. And that, in a nutshell, is one of the big flamewar
> topics around here. :)
Naw. There are a few new ways that are really interesting... C&C,
Some of the Green Ronin publications, Spycraft, and Fudge OGL for
example. I'll still play or GM a home grown 0D&D game anytime though.
Re,
Dirk
Dirk Collins
> Many of us never had the bad old days. We though Gygax was a pompous prick
> then, too.
I didn't like chamber of horrors, and shrine of the kua-toa either
(Don't know what hand EGG had in the latter, if any). Most of the
rest was just peachy though.
You don't like any of the d20 Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds volumes
published by the Troll Lords?
Re,
Dirk
Dirk Collins
> Untrue - blatantly so, if you read the adventures he wrote and the
> various accounts of the games he was involved in (Sorcerer's Scroll
> etc.) with more than an ounce of applied intelligence. He pioneered a
> DM methodology that challenged *players* (rather than characters) in
> problem solving within adventure design, and acted as a neutral arbiter
> during play (occasionally viciously so). Heck, he pioneered DMing full
> stop. The current apparent design philosophy is to challenge
> *characters*, and to DM in a way that, if anything, slants a bias
> towards PCs.
Makes the game grow for vets, but not for newbies.
>
> Even the traps in the notorious Tomb of Horrors can be circumvented by
> clever players. The emphasis of 3E takes the game away from the players
> towards the characters (viz, players can rely more on the intelligence -
> skills, if you will - of their characters, more than their own
> problem-solving capabilities).
and...
> The role of the DM in 3E is different than it was. But to call those
> days of yore "bad" is to completely deny that a heck of a lot of us had
> a heck of a lot of fun for a heck of a long time before "modern takes"
> appeared.
and...
> There's a significant group who missed the point then, and continue to
> miss the point now - that's the nutshell "bad days/good days" concept.
>
Well... I happen to agree on all these major points. We had fun
with making new rules to improve the game, and making sessions a
good fit for the players at the table. In making up good epic
stories, and in seeing epic stories created by the players at the
table.
Re,
Dirk
Dirk Collins
Malachias Invictus
"Dirk Collins" <dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> wrote in message
news:biQQe.3935$_84....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Don't listen to Dirk. Someone is home, but the porch light is out.
--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.
from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Malachias Invictus
"Telendil Silverleaf" <michae...@civigenics.com> wrote in message
news:1125346615....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I'm kind of confused. Is he universally despised by the gaming
> community, universally loved, or somewhere in between?
A little of "all of the above."
> Everything I've read about him seems to indicate that he resembles a
> large pink organ of phallic dimensions.
He certainly comes off that way in many of his interviews. I do not like
his style much, but I give him props as one of the founders of the game.
The game *has* clearly grown beyond him, and of course, that is a good
thing. We now have *many* ways of playing that were not readily available
before.
Terry Austin
Probably wouldn't know one if I bit me on the penis. I dislike Gygax, and
the gaming philosophy he stands for. Have for a long, long time. When I
started gaming, Dungeons & Dragons didn't have "Advanced" (or anything
else) in front of it. It was three little digest sized books, plus a couple
of supplements.
--
Terry Austin
http://www.hyperbooks.com/
Campaign Cartographer Now Available
Star...@earthlink.net
LET'S ALL QUIT THIS THREAD! GODWIN'S LAW HAS BEEN BROKEN!
Naw really though.
Still, you are a big retard for resorting to such language.
Star...@earthlink.net
dnd conversion, which is really a new game altogether?
chaos...@gmail.com
Ian R Malcomson wrote:
>
> Even the traps in the notorious Tomb of Horrors can be circumvented by
> clever players.
Sure. They just have to be clever enough to "think outside the box", as
it were, and read the module when the DM goes to the bathroom.
There are traps in there which will 100% kill PCs that act (as they
should) like heroes. There are also traps that cannot be detected, and
must be evaded through sheer luck.
> >Gaming has passed him by. Modern takes on the role of the DM are very
> >different, and most of us have no wish to return to the bad old days.
>
> The role of the DM in 3E is different than it was. But to call those
> days of yore "bad" is to completely deny that a heck of a lot of us had
> a heck of a lot of fun for a heck of a long time before "modern takes"
> appeared.
Like I said, one of the big flamewar topics around here.
Laszlo
Waldo
Ian R Malcomson wrote:
> >He's very divisive.
Yes. This has led to a minority of hardcore Gygaxians defending his
legacy, facing off against a larger group that has learned to despise
him.
> He pioneered a
> DM methodology that challenged *players* (rather than characters) in
> problem solving within adventure design, and acted as a neutral arbiter
> during play (occasionally viciously so). Heck, he pioneered DMing full
> stop.
Hrm. I'd say it's a little more complicated than that.
One, if anyone deserves the title "first DM", it's Dave Arneson, not
Gary.
Two, that said, yes he did pioneer all sorts of stuff. His were the
first /immersive/ role-playing adventures. That is, Gygax expected
players to engage fully with the game in a way that you wouldn't with,
say, a boardgame. This has been the norm for 30 years now, so we've
forgotten what a huge advance it was at the time.
About 2/3 of the key elements of modern D&D are Gygax's. Hit dice.
Levels. The concept of rolling a die to hit against armor class.
(Arneson claims this too, but the evidence supports Gary.) Alignment.
The "Vancian" magic system.
And, as you say, the concept of the role of DM. Arneson saw the DM as
more of a referee in an old-fashioned miniatures campaign. Gygax was
the first to realize that the DM could (1) create a fully realized
fantasy world, and (2) "push back" at the players, challenging them
with unexpected encounters, puzzles, traps, and things that were just
completely 'out of the box' from a board-game POV. Gygax arguably made
the key breakthrough to a simulationist view of RPGing.
The industry owes him a huge debt. He does seem to be a bit of a
pompous ass, but OTOH we could have done worse. Much, much worse.
Final thought: Gygax went through phases. He didn't stay fixed in his
opinions over 35 years. IMS he had a lot of ups and downs in both his
personal and professional lives over that period. In his public
persona, he varied from totally obnoxious and unbearable -- especially
during his THESE ARE THE RULES, OBEY THEM period in the late '70s and
early '80s -- to surprisingly flexible and generous.
His views on a lot of things evolved over time. In the '70s he was a
pretty unabashed sexist pig -- "A woman's place in gaming is bringing
the snacks to the gaming table", type of thing. (No, he never actually
said that, but close enough.) He's mellowed a lot since then... see,
for instance, his friendly and pleasant interview in 2000 with
womengamers.com.
Again, we could have done much worse.
> The role of the DM in 3E is different than it was. But to call those
> days of yore "bad" is to completely deny that a heck of a lot of us had
> a heck of a lot of fun for a heck of a long time before "modern takes"
> appeared.
True. Most people (not all, just most) find 1e unplayable now that
we've played 3.x. But that doesn't mean we didn't have, as you say, a
heck of a lot of fun for a heck of a long time with 1e.
Waldo
chaos...@gmail.com
Star...@Earthlink.net wrote:
> > Nazi.
>
> LET'S ALL QUIT THIS THREAD! GODWIN'S LAW HAS BEEN BROKEN!
What this NG needs is a Designated Hitler rule.
Laszlo
Murf
yes... we owe him a lot for the early development of RPG's (etc)
but
It always got to me a bit (even when I was reading the then brand new
1st ed DMG as a youngster) that his words didn't match his actions. In
dragon mag and running through the rule books was a smug line of "some
people run monty haul campaigns" with characters "decked out like
christmas trees of magic items" (actual qoute I believe from mem)
Also he stressed that dungs should not be random collections of
beasts.. But then - check out some of his designs - HUGE amounts of
magic treasure, loads of critters mixed up and always..
"There are xxx stoneroper bards playing dice, they look up and attack"
and
The creatures with xxx special attack (eg petrifcation) will always
have a xxx curing potion or scroll in its treasure.
Also he had something pervy going on about pole arms and owlbears
quu...@yahoo.com
Main Entry: satire
Pronunciation: 'sa-"tIr
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin satura,
satira, perhaps from (lanx) satura dish of mixed ingredients, from
feminine of satur well-fed; akin to Latin satis.
2 : trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice
or folly
Telendil Silverleaf
operative phrase was "seems to indicate", not "I firmly believe."
Telendil Silverleaf
respected him a lot as the inventor of D&D. I didn't even KNOW there
was a guy named Dave Arneson until a few months ago. And then, when I
read about Gygax in the forums, there USUALLY (but not always) seems to
be a great deal of ire and venom directed at him.
So it would be useful to me to know what people think of him, and why.
I'd rather form my own opinion of him (if I even do so) by gathering
input from lots of people. (Ideally, you'd meet the guy and form it
from first-hand evidence, but that's not likely going to happen any
time soon.) That seems more preferable to me than sitting alone in my
room, and just arbitrarily deciding that I do or don't like the guy,
and that's that.
mad...@grandecom.net
Telendil Silverleaf wrote:
> See, that's what confuses me. I used to think he was a great guy, and
> respected him a lot as the inventor of D&D. I didn't even KNOW there
> was a guy named Dave Arneson until a few months ago. And then, when I
> read about Gygax in the forums, there USUALLY (but not always) seems to
> be a great deal of ire and venom directed at him.
You came pretty close to answering your own question, there. People
who can't stand Gygax come by their opinions in a variety of ways, but
one of the reasons for the venom may stem from the popular conception
that he is *the* inventor of D&D, and thus the "father" of what we
consider modern RPGs. The fact that Dave Arneson (at least as
responsible for the game's creation as Gary) goes all but unnoticed by
many fans and the media tends to get under the skin of folks who
understand and care about that sort of thing.
>
> So it would be useful to me to know what people think of him, and why.
Personally, I'm rather ambivalent about the man. He's notable for his
role in the origins of the hobby, and for some rather entertaining
turns of phrase in the D&D/AD&D1 books, but that's about it for me.
tussock
I hereby designate Terry Austin to be the group's Hitler.
--
tussock
Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
R. Scott Dalton
"tussock" <sc...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:4314...@clear.net.nz...
> chaos...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Star...@Earthlink.net wrote:
>>
>>>>Nazi.
>>>
>>>LET'S ALL QUIT THIS THREAD! GODWIN'S LAW HAS BEEN BROKEN!
>>
>> What this NG needs is a Designated Hitler rule.
>
> I hereby designate Terry Austin to be the group's >Hitler.
And with those few words, balance was once again restored to the
multiverse.
dchi...@cablespeed.com
chaos...@gmail.com wrote:
> Ian R Malcomson wrote:
> >
> > Even the traps in the notorious Tomb of Horrors can be circumvented by
> > clever players.
>
> Sure. They just have to be clever enough to "think outside the box", as
> it were, and read the module when the DM goes to the bathroom.
>
I ran it once at a convention. It ended in a TPK--but that was
mostly because the players just would not quit monkeying with
the traps. Most of the kills were of the "Ooh! I wonder what
*this* button does!" type. A complete refusal to take any
divination spells didn't help.
Granted, in many modules of the time you were *supposed* to
pull any big red shiny levers you found.
Waldo
Telendil Silverleaf wrote:
> See, that's what confuses me. I used to think he was a great guy, and
> respected him a lot as the inventor of D&D.
He deserves a certain amount of respect.
> I didn't even KNOW there
> was a guy named Dave Arneson until a few months ago.
Well, yeah, and that's a big part of the problem. Gygax had -- still
has -- a pretty big ego, and quite deliberately shoved Arneson aside
and grabbed as much glory as possible. Sort of like a Newton and
Hooke, Edison and Tesla kind of thing.
Mind you, this was a pretty damn effective strategy in terms of
maximizing Gygaxian income and personal status. Most people think he
is the sole inventor of D&D (not on this forum, but the much larger
group with just casual knowledge of the history of the hobby).
But, let's face it -- a lot of great innovators are obnoxious,
egotistical jerks. That doesn't mean they aren't also great
innovators.
> So it would be useful to me to know what people think of him, and why.
Well, you have my opinion: kind of a jerk, and not everything he's
tried to claim he is, but a hugely important figure nonetheless.
Waldo
Waldo
chaos...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Even the traps in the notorious Tomb of Horrors can be circumvented by
> > clever players.
>
> Sure. They just have to be clever enough to "think outside the box", as
> it were, and read the module when the DM goes to the bathroom.
Heh.
> There are traps in there which will 100% kill PCs that act (as they
> should) like heroes. There are also traps that cannot be detected, and
> must be evaded through sheer luck.
Ohhh... there is some truth in what you say.
But you have to take it in context. This was first edition, when
rolling up a character took about a third as long as it does now. You
could generate a first level character in less than five minutes, and a
midlevel one -- 10th, say -- in not much more.
The system was so kludgy that it didn't support the sort of minimaxing
and nitpicking that 3e almost requires. If you played a fighter, you
put your top three stats in Str, Con and Dex, and everything else was
COMPLETELY irrelevant. No skills, no feats. I don't say it was good,
but you could replace a lost PC on the fly... you rolled your stats and
hit points, scribbled for a minute or two, and your new character
walked over a hill and joined the party.
Also, the standard of the industry was pretty low then. Hell, they
didn't have standards. We can all wax nostalgic about, say, Palace of
the Silver Princess or the Keep on the Borderlands, but by modern
standards they were pretty crap. There are dozens of free modules on
the internet that are better than most TSR modules from before 1980.
Insta-kill traps... well, hell, why not. It was no more dopey than all
those monsters sitting around in little rooms waiting for you.
You'll notice that when Gygax went back to writing modules in the '90s,
he didn't have too many of these. His Necropolis, for instance, has
only a couple of them, and that's not grossly unreasonable given what
it is. So I'm inclined to blame this more on the period than on Gygax.
(As opposed to, say, the weirdness with polearms. That was all Gary.)
Waldo
Bradd W. Szonye
> Also, the standard of the industry was pretty low then. Hell, they
> didn't have standards. We can all wax nostalgic about, say, Palace of
> the Silver Princess or the Keep on the Borderlands, but by modern
> standards they were pretty crap.
Hey! B3 is pretty weak, but B2 is a solid adventure. The best in the
line has to be B4, though.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Ian R Malcomson
<snip>
>Also, the standard of the industry was pretty low then. Hell, they
>didn't have standards. We can all wax nostalgic about, say, Palace of
>the Silver Princess or the Keep on the Borderlands, but by modern
>standards they were pretty crap.
Oh, I don't know... Yes, the modules of the 70s and 80s (certain
exceptions - such as the DLs - aside) were pretty sketchy, badly laid
out (the text layout of ToH still makes my eyes bleed), and largely
incomplete when compared to the more expansive styles that came up
through 2nd Ed. But I think this is why some of us *are* nostalgic
about those things. They were so detail-lite a DM was virtually forced
to expand on them, a process that could be interesting if you either
went for an explanatory ("*why* do those orcs and those gnolls live
right next door to each other without a major war?") or a revisionist
("that's dumb...so I'm going to change it") method.
A good DM (IMO) will, when expanding/revising/otherwise messing with a
published module will always take that module within the context of the
players (and PCs) of the group he DMs. So, when it came to those
detail-lite old modules, you ended up with a detail-not-so-lite variant
for play that was tailored to your group. They were good because the DM
made them good - something I firmly sit by, because many people I've met
that have a "the G-series sucks" attitude (e.g.) can also detail why
they think that - and 8 times from 10 it's because of a lack of DM
effort.
The 3E format (even in Dungeon) is a lot more expansive. A 16-page 3E
module doesn't cover as much ground in room-by-room encounters as an
equivalent-sized 1st Ed. one, but the ground it does cover is done so in
a way that makes it much easier for a DM to pick up and fly with,
without a couple or so hours of prep beforehand. Stat blocks are
clearer (and exist for traps, too - DMing the trapfest that is ToH with
such stat blocks in place would've been soooooooooo much easier), tools
like CR mean that encounters are less hit-or-miss affairs with respect
to party power levels, and you generally don't have to read an encounter
6 times before you figure out just what the heck is meant to be going
on.
But then, you're not forced into making the adventure your own, tailored
to your group. Not that you *can't* do so, but that the level of detail
provided means there's less impetus to put the work in.
In other words, those old modules, shoddily written and presented as
they were, are items of nostalgia because virtually no-one ran them as
they were written, and instead ran them to suit their group's dynamic.
>You'll notice that when Gygax went back to writing modules in the '90s,
>he didn't have too many of these. His Necropolis, for instance, has
>only a couple of them, and that's not grossly unreasonable given what
>it is. So I'm inclined to blame this more on the period than on Gygax.
>
>(As opposed to, say, the weirdness with polearms. That was all Gary.)
When it was a Dragon article, the "Nomeclature of Polearms" was a
relatively interesting read. When it made it into the UA, you just
*knew* there was a weird fetish going on there...
--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"
Ian R Malcomson
I've met him a couple of times, both because we were locked behind
stalls at conventions in buildings with no-smoking policies, so those of
us with nicotine habits (myself and Gygax included) tended to sneak off
every now and then to a quiet corner of a car park.
I don't like everything he's written, and I don't agree with everything
he's said over the years in interviews and magazine columns, but
speaking to him gave to me the general impression that his overall
attitude to games is one I can hold a torch for. That is, they're meant
to be fun, and if whatever you're doing with a game is creating fun for
those gathered around your table, you're not doing anything wrong.
Note that he didn't specifically *say* that - it's the impression I got
from talking to him. Before meeting him, he was just another name on
the covers of my gaming books, that also turned up in magazines
authoring articles I either enjoyed, skipped over, or cringed at.
Oh, and he signs "May all your adventures be magical ones". Indeed :)
Rupert Boleyn
upon a tablet of ether:
> You'll notice that when Gygax went back to writing modules in the '90s,
> he didn't have too many of these. His Necropolis, for instance, has
> only a couple of them, and that's not grossly unreasonable given what
> it is. So I'm inclined to blame this more on the period than on Gygax.
I remember more than a few in Necropolis, and Gary went to great
lengths explaining that they were absolutely undetectable. When I ran
it I experienced a player revolt over one of them.
--
Rupert Boleyn <rbo...@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Rupert Boleyn
<bradd...@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
> Waldo <peggo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Also, the standard of the industry was pretty low then. Hell, they
> > didn't have standards. We can all wax nostalgic about, say, Palace of
> > the Silver Princess or the Keep on the Borderlands, but by modern
> > standards they were pretty crap.
>
> Hey! B3 is pretty weak, but B2 is a solid adventure. The best in the
> line has to be B4, though.
I always liked B5 & B6.
Werebat
chaos...@gmail.com wrote:
> Telendil Silverleaf wrote:
>
>>I'm kind of confused. Is he universally despised by the gaming
>>community, universally loved, or somewhere in between?
>>
>>Everything I've read about him seems to indicate that he resembles a
>>large pink organ of phallic dimensions.
>
>
> He's very divisive. Basically, he pioneered the "DM is God, and should
> demonstrate this by screwing the players whenever possible" style of
> gaming. His adventure modules almost invariably have unfair, instakill
> traps, many of them undetectable.
>
> Gaming has passed him by. Modern takes on the role of the DM are very
> different, and most of us have no wish to return to the bad old days.
>
> But there is a significant minority who _like_ the old ways, for
> whatever reason. And that, in a nutshell, is one of the big flamewar
> topics around here. :)
In other words, some people (pussies) didn't like Gygax because they
might LOSE a CHARACTER!!!
Some other people are not pussies and can take it like a MAN.
- Ron ^*^
Bradd W. Szonye
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:02:37 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
><bradd...@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> Waldo <peggo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Also, the standard of the industry was pretty low then. Hell, they
>> > didn't have standards. We can all wax nostalgic about, say, Palace of
>> > the Silver Princess or the Keep on the Borderlands, but by modern
>> > standards they were pretty crap.
>>
>> Hey! B3 is pretty weak, but B2 is a solid adventure. The best in the
>> line has to be B4, though.
>
> I always liked B5 & B6.
I never read anything past B4, so I wouldn't know.
Justin Bacon
Telendil Silverleaf wrote:
> I'm kind of confused. Is he universally despised by the gaming
> community, universally loved, or somewhere in between?
Yes.
Gygax tends to create powerful responses: There are those who revere
him for his role in shaping their formative years and creating their
favorite pasttime. There are those who revile him for (a) poor design
skills; (b) his god-like ego; (c) stealing credit from Dave Arneson;
and (d) Cyborg Commando.
Personally, I respect him for his design skills (a praise which must be
tempered with a strong critique for his ability to selectively edit hs
own work). I think his active effort to diminish Dave Arneson's
contribution to D&D (when he wasn't ignoring him outright) is
contemptible. I find his insistence that his style of play is endorsed
by Divine Writ to be tedious.
--
Justin Alexander Bacon
http://www.thealexandrian.net
Some Guy
> I'm kind of confused. Is he universally despised by the gaming
> community, universally loved, or somewhere in between?
Yes.
> Everything I've read about him seems to indicate that he resembles a
> large pink organ of phallic dimensions.
>
The same could be said of the current President. As always, opinions
vary by person and are ultimately valueless in that regard.
Dirk Collins
> Dirk Collins <dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> wrote:
>>You don't like any of the d20 Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds volumes
>>published by the Troll Lords?
>
> the gaming philosophy he stands for. Have for a long, long time. When I
> started gaming, Dungeons & Dragons didn't have "Advanced" (or anything
> else) in front of it. It was three little digest sized books, plus a couple
> of supplements.
The three books, along with the four supplements, and Chainmail
are sitting right here on my desk shelf. At gaming conventions I
still GM a 0D&D round every time I attend.
What RPG's do you GM or play these days?
Re,
Dirk
Telendil Silverleaf
news:fP6Re.1915$mH.1598@fed1read07...
>> Everything I've read about him seems to indicate that he resembles a
>> large pink organ of phallic dimensions.
>>
>
> The same could be said of the current President. As always, opinions vary
> by person and are ultimately valueless in that regard.
Noted. (And supported.)
Jeff Heikkinen
> Gygax tends to create powerful responses: There are those who revere
> him for his role in shaping their formative years and creating their
> favorite pasttime. There are those who revile him for (a) poor design
> skills; (b) his god-like ego; (c) stealing credit from Dave Arneson;
> and (d) Cyborg Commando.
Don't forget (e) his writing style.
Jeff Heikkinen
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:02:37 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
> <bradd...@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > Waldo <peggo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Also, the standard of the industry was pretty low then. Hell, they
> > > didn't have standards. We can all wax nostalgic about, say, Palace of
> > > the Silver Princess or the Keep on the Borderlands, but by modern
> > > standards they were pretty crap.
> >
> > Hey! B3 is pretty weak, but B2 is a solid adventure. The best in the
> > line has to be B4, though.
>
> I always liked B5 & B6.
B6 is damn good and B10, loose and unstructured though it may be, is
probably my favorite published adventure, ever. But by then Gygax had
little if anything to do with it.
Dirk Collins
> See, that's what confuses me. I used to think he was a great guy, and
> respected him a lot as the inventor of D&D. I didn't even KNOW there
> was a guy named Dave Arneson until a few months ago. And then, when I
> read about Gygax in the forums, there USUALLY (but not always) seems to
> be a great deal of ire and venom directed at him.
This appears to be a common behavioral trait of RPG gamers in
general, and not just with EGG, and uh, also with wargamers as
well. Part of it, is that if there any grounds at all for a
disagreement to occur over rules, each player will take a
polarized view in order to "break" the system. Presumably this
leads to better gaming systems, however, I haven't seen a system
yet that has the flexibility to do away with the GM or a referee
of some sort.
> So it would be useful to me to know what people think of him, and why.
> I'd rather form my own opinion of him (if I even do so) by gathering
> input from lots of people. (Ideally, you'd meet the guy and form it
> from first-hand evidence, but that's not likely going to happen any
> time soon.) That seems more preferable to me than sitting alone in my
> room, and just arbitrarily deciding that I do or don't like the guy,
> and that's that.
He was overextending himself to meet all his gaming agreements and
obligations. Last year, he had a heart attack and was
hospitalized, around May, I think. He recovered well enough, but
with the brush with the grim reaper, he has re-aligned his
priorities somewhat, and focusing more on his family. I don't
think he travels as much as he used to. I heard or read somewhere
that he gave up smoking too. He attended and GM'ed at the
Milwaukee Gamefest this year, and another smaller con, The Lake
Geneva Gaming convention.
The recent d20 books he has edited and co-authored are detail
oriented works for GM's that include lists, tables, generators,
definitions, and illustrations that a GM can use to describe the
people, places, and things in any fantasy world to provide the
suspension of disbelief that all players need to immerse
themselves in the game.
In addition, with the wealth of detail provided, these d20 books
aid players and GM's in arbitrating disputes (Very common in
gaming) to a satisfactory conclusion. It's an excellent series, I
have two of the six books published to date, "World Builder" and
"Extraordinary Book of Names", and am looking to acquire all the
rest, with the possible exception of "Thieves Cant".
Living Fantasy, Insidae, and Nation Builder being the other
published works of this series. A seventh book is on the drawing
board, "Essential Places", and that'll probably go on my buy list
as well. Being d20 system books, they'll work with D&D, but they
are written well enough to be used with just about any RPG.
In addition, He's published an entirely new fantasy RPG, Lejendary
Adventures. I don't have much experience with this, so am unable
to comment on that at this time.
Do I like him? Yeah! He brought one of the best games of our age
into my home, to my friends, and he continues to contribute to
gaming in a positive manner when many other GM's and authors have
turned their back on the fans and the industry as a whole. He did
this, in spite of all the ire and venom directed at him which is
commendable.
Re,
Dirk
Rupert Boleyn
carved upon a tablet of ether:
> > I always liked B5 & B6.
>
> B6 is damn good and B10, loose and unstructured though it may be, is
> probably my favorite published adventure, ever. But by then Gygax had
> little if anything to do with it.
I don't think I've ever seen B10. I liked the way B6 combined street
warfare with a bit of detective work and skulking. B5 was nice because
it was a dungeon that vaguely made sense, though I'm not sure an
advanture supposedly suitable to 1-3rd level BD&D characters really
should've had all those ogres. OTOH, it was an effective way of
teaching the ancient art of running away.
Dirk Collins
> Waldo <peggo...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> (As opposed to, say, the weirdness with polearms. That was all Gary.)
> When it was a Dragon article, the "Nomeclature of Polearms" was a
> relatively interesting read. When it made it into the UA, you just
> *knew* there was a weird fetish going on there...
It continues... It made the "World Builder" guide too. In the
Appendices, Appendix A, the Random weapons chart has more
different types of polearms listed, than sword, and sword-like
weapons.
Historically (real-life type), I'm not quite inclined to believe
that more variations of polearms were created than swords, and
sword-type weapons over the ages.
Re,
Dirk
Terry Austin
news:M28Re.4847$FW1....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
Hero, mostly.
--
Terry Austin
http://www.hyperbooks.com/
Campaign Cartographer Now Available
Kaos
speak in front of ME:
>Some other people are not pussies and can take it like a MAN.
Up the rear from a dominatrix with a strap-on?
--
The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out
the conservative adopts them.
Samuel Clemens, "Notebook," 1935
Kaos
<dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> dared speak in front of ME:
>chaos...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Telendil Silverleaf wrote:
>>>I'm kind of confused. Is he universally despised by the gaming
>>>community, universally loved, or somewhere in between?
>>
>> He's very divisive. Basically, he pioneered the "DM is God, and should
>> demonstrate this by screwing the players whenever possible" style of
>> gaming. His adventure modules almost invariably have unfair, instakill
>> traps, many of them undetectable.
>
>He did not. It's not his fault that many other GM's and players
>lacked imagination and had even less initiative to improve the game.
>
>> Gaming has passed him by. Modern takes on the role of the DM are very
>> different, and most of us have no wish to return to the bad old days.
>
>Yeah! Roleplaying has been changed into a win-lose proposition,
>instead of a win-win proposition for both the players and GM. The
>time it takes without good software to prep a fun game is
>excrutiating,
You're doing it wrong.
Kaos
<rbo...@paradise.net.nz> dared speak in front of ME:
>On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:02:37 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
><bradd...@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> Waldo <peggo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Also, the standard of the industry was pretty low then. Hell, they
>> > didn't have standards. We can all wax nostalgic about, say, Palace of
>> > the Silver Princess or the Keep on the Borderlands, but by modern
>> > standards they were pretty crap.
>>
>> Hey! B3 is pretty weak, but B2 is a solid adventure. The best in the
>> line has to be B4, though.
>
>I always liked B5 & B6.
I still prefer Androm....
Oh, this hasn't degenerated into a Babylon 5 discussion yet.
Nevermind.
Some Guy
> See, that's what confuses me. I used to think he was a great guy, and
> respected him a lot as the inventor of D&D. I didn't even KNOW there
> was a guy named Dave Arneson until a few months ago. And then, when I
> read about Gygax in the forums, there USUALLY (but not always) seems to
> be a great deal of ire and venom directed at him.
You could say the same about MSB.
> So it would be useful to me to know what people think of him, and why.
> I'd rather form my own opinion of him (if I even do so) by gathering
> input from lots of people. (Ideally, you'd meet the guy and form it
> from first-hand evidence, but that's not likely going to happen any
> time soon.) That seems more preferable to me than sitting alone in my
> room, and just arbitrarily deciding that I do or don't like the guy,
> and that's that.
>
The problem with that is you're basing your opinion on what other people
think and not what you think. This can lead to all sorts of problem,
particularly if, for example, a lot of people mistakenly think you're a
terrorist when you're not:
cop...@yahoo.com
FWIW, the book _Weapons: An International Encyclopedia From 5000 BC To
2000 AD_ (The Diagram Group, St. Martin's Press, 1990) devotes 22 pages
to swords and only 8 to polearms (although about 8 pages of swords were
post-Medieval).
Brandon
Some Guy
Some Guy
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:05:41 -0400, Werebat <ranpo...@cox.net> dared
> speak in front of ME:
>
>
>>Some other people are not pussies and can take it like a MAN.
>
>
> Up the rear from a dominatrix with a strap-on?
>
Ah, porn. Enjoy it while you can, because the buttholes in Ohio who put
President Stupid back in office have also wreaked this on us:
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1125318960389&rss=newswire
But then, with 1 in 5 American adults thinking the Sun revolves around
the Earth, what do you expect?
Spinner
>> > line has to be B4, though.
>>
>> I always liked B5 & B6.
>
> B6 is damn good and B10, loose and unstructured though it may be, is
> probably my favorite published adventure, ever. But by then Gygax had
> little if anything to do with it.
B10 is my favourite too (this is Night's Dark Terror, right?). If you
haven't seen it, it's a must check out.
It's greatest strength (among others) is the presentation of a loosely
linear multi-faceted long quest that takes you inside, outside, to the city,
to ruins, to the woods, to the mountains, includes some mass combat,
negotiation, minor but interesting encounters, fully fleshed out optional
side treks ... all while dropping hints and references to the main quest
within a consistent and interesting little world.
And it's for levels 2-4.
Other titles by the authors (Jim Bambra + one other) are good too.
Spinner
Telendil Silverleaf
You've got to be kidding. No--wait, I retract that. Ever since the talking
monkey has taken office, civil liberties have been eroded to the
pre-Stonewall era and McCarthyism has been reinstated. In yet another
senseless act of immeasurable stupidity, he has gradually eroded the line
between church and state. And we're not even going to talk about him LYING
to the country and the world about why he was going to war with Iraq, and
sending all those troops to actively wrest control from a soverign nation
that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. That's a completely separate
thread.
So, yeah. I'm not surprised.
But now I know where all my savings are going. <smirk> I'm gonna need a
bigger porn closet.
Telendil Silverleaf
news:f91ah1d6lot20thdf...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:05:41 -0400, Werebat <ranpo...@cox.net> dared
> speak in front of ME:
>
>>Some other people are not pussies and can take it like a MAN.
>
> Up the rear from a dominatrix with a strap-on?
Who sez it has to be a dominatrix? :0P
Telendil Silverleaf
> Telendil Silverleaf wrote:
>> See, that's what confuses me. I used to think he was a great guy, and
>> respected him a lot as the inventor of D&D. I didn't even KNOW there
>> was a guy named Dave Arneson until a few months ago. And then, when I
>> read about Gygax in the forums, there USUALLY (but not always) seems to
>> be a great deal of ire and venom directed at him.
>
> You could say the same about MSB.
Heh. No comment.
>> So it would be useful to me to know what people think of him, and why.
>> I'd rather form my own opinion of him (if I even do so) by gathering
>> input from lots of people. (Ideally, you'd meet the guy and form it
>> from first-hand evidence, but that's not likely going to happen any
>> time soon.) That seems more preferable to me than sitting alone in my
>> room, and just arbitrarily deciding that I do or don't like the guy,
>> and that's that.
>>
>
> The problem with that is you're basing your opinion on what other people
> think and not what you think. This can lead to all sorts of problem,
> particularly if, for example, a lot of people mistakenly think you're a
> terrorist when you're not:
>
> http://mediachannel.org/blog/node/760
I don't disagree with you in the slightest. Still, I think that if I formed
an opinion as an intellectual island, I wouldn't be giving dissenting voices
a fair chance. I like to consider myself open-minded. When someone has a
valid point of dissent, I want to hear it. Note that the operative word
there is "valid". I like rational debate. So, I am entertaining the notion
that the opinion that I seem to be forming about him may be flawed; so I'd
like to hear what others think and know of him and WHY. Particularly, I'm
interested in folks' first-hand experiences with him, as opposed to
anecdotal evidence they heard through the grapevine or read in a magazine
somewhere.
Like I said, I always respected him as the creator of D&D; I was thrilled
when I heard that he'd been invited by WotC to take part in developing 3rd
Edition. But now I hear about this Dave Arneson fellow, and wonder how he
could have been overlooked, when the two of them combined their ideas and
produced D&D (over a substantial period of time). (I'm reminded of Stan Lee
hoarding all the attention, so that most folks don't have any idea who the
hell Avi Arad is.) Anyway, I'm always open to changing my mind if I find
that I've held an invalid position.
God knows, I don't want to be anything like a certain closed-minded talking
monkey.
Kaos
dared speak in front of ME:
>Kaos wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:05:41 -0400, Werebat <ranpo...@cox.net> dared
>> speak in front of ME:
>>
>>
>>>Some other people are not pussies and can take it like a MAN.
>>
>> Up the rear from a dominatrix with a strap-on?
>
>Ah, porn.
Who's talking about porn here? I've got the handcuffs, the gag and
the strap-on. Bend over, let's have some fun.
>Enjoy it while you can, because the buttholes in Ohio who put
>President Stupid back in office have also wreaked this on us:
>
>http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1125318960389&rss=newswire
And did you look at the dweeb in question? Talk about
self-destructive behaviour, he's chopping off his only plausible
outlet...
No 33 Secretary
news:c0tah1hj4ukvmacll...@4ax.com:
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:50:53 -0700, Some Guy <som...@thedoor.gov>
> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>Kaos wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:05:41 -0400, Werebat <ranpo...@cox.net> dared
>>> speak in front of ME:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Some other people are not pussies and can take it like a MAN.
>>>
>>> Up the rear from a dominatrix with a strap-on?
>>
>>Ah, porn.
>
> Who's talking about porn here? I've got the handcuffs, the gag and
> the strap-on. Bend over, let's have some fun.
>
>>Enjoy it while you can, because the buttholes in Ohio who put
>>President Stupid back in office have also wreaked this on us:
>>
>>http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1125318960389&rss=newswire
>
> And did you look at the dweeb in question? Talk about
> self-destructive behaviour, he's chopping off his only plausible
> outlet...
It's not like he'll actually *do* anything anyway. Or that he could, if he
tried. There are no gray areas left in the legalities of porn.
--
"So there is no third law of Terrydynamics."
-- William Hyde
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Kevin Venzke
"Jeff Heikkinen" <no....@jose.org> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d7ed2592...@news.easynews.com...
There's something wrong with his writing style?
And what was wrong with Cyborg Commando?
Kevin
David Johnston
wrote:
Well, the memories are vague but I do think recall that the heros were
all identical and the bad guys were all these big blobs who couldn't
talk and had no personalities. I was never interested enough to try
out the combat system.
cop...@yahoo.com
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:18:37 GMT, "Kevin Venzke" <step...@yahooo.frr>
> >
>
> Well, the memories are vague but I do think recall that the heros were
> all identical and the bad guys were all these big blobs who couldn't
> talk and had no personalities. I was never interested enough to try
> out the combat system.
I GMed about six adventures of CC. Only the last had more than one
player, so there was never an "all identical" problem (to be honest, it
probably was no worse than a team of SEALs being "identical").
The dice mechanic, though odd (1d10 * 1d10) was servicable enough. I
don't remember any major problems with the combat system, other than
the general lack of damage values for weapons not carried by a CC or
the aliens.
Anyway, I think the idea of the game was not to discuss late
impressionist painters with the aliens, but to Kill The Bastards!
Brandon
Dirk Collins
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 03:36:31 GMT, Dirk Collins wrote:
>>Yeah! Roleplaying has been changed into a win-lose proposition,
>>instead of a win-win proposition for both the players and GM. The
>>time it takes without good software to prep a fun game is
>>excrutiating,
>
>
> You're doing it wrong.
Am Not. You just happen to think so, cause you don't know any better.
Dirk Collins
> Noted. He seems to have completely missed the point of the post. The
> operative phrase was "seems to indicate", not "I firmly believe."
>
That wasn't the part of the post I had a contention with.
Now you are a 'Tard with two strikes.
Telendil Silverleaf
"Dirk Collins" <dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> wrote in message
news:biQQe.3935$_84....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Telendil Silverleaf wrote:
>
>> I'm kind of confused. Is he universally despised by the gaming
>> community, universally loved, or somewhere in between?
>>
>
> Well... you just proved beyond a reason of a doubt, that you're a total
> retard.
Well then, it's fortunate for me that I don't give a damn about your
opinion. Have fun.
Jeff Heikkinen
"They occasionally go devoid of raiment" instead of "they sometimes
don't wear clothes"?
As others have said, somewhat flavourful, but needlessly wordy and not
very good at *conveying* *information*.
> And what was wrong with Cyborg Commando?
That I can't speak on, having never even seen a copy. I know it's got a
terrible reputation, but I don't know why. Although the name isn't very
promising.
> Kevin
>
>
>
David Johnston
wrote:
>David Johnston wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:18:37 GMT, "Kevin Venzke" <step...@yahooo.frr>
>> >
>> >And what was wrong with Cyborg Commando?
>>
>> Well, the memories are vague but I do think recall that the heros were
>> all identical and the bad guys were all these big blobs who couldn't
>> talk and had no personalities. I was never interested enough to try
>> out the combat system.
>
>I GMed about six adventures of CC. Only the last had more than one
>player, so there was never an "all identical" problem (to be honest, it
>probably was no worse than a team of SEALs being "identical").
Ever notice how few games about SEALs there are?
>
>The dice mechanic, though odd (1d10 * 1d10) was servicable enough. I
>don't remember any major problems with the combat system, other than
>the general lack of damage values for weapons not carried by a CC or
>the aliens.
>
>Anyway, I think the idea of the game was not to discuss late
>impressionist painters with the aliens, but to Kill The Bastards!
So why make it a roleplaying game instead of a wargame?
Malachias Invictus
"Dirk Collins" <dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> wrote in message
Shut the fuck up, Dirk. No one cares.
--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.
from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Dirk Collins
> Shut the .... up, Dirk. No one cares.
Try harder next time, you just might succeed at whatever it is you
are really trying to do. I don't think you'll be successful though.
Some Guy
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:50:53 -0700, Some Guy <som...@thedoor.gov>
> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>
>>Kaos wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:05:41 -0400, Werebat <ranpo...@cox.net> dared
>>>speak in front of ME:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Some other people are not pussies and can take it like a MAN.
>>>
>>>Up the rear from a dominatrix with a strap-on?
>>
>>Ah, porn.
>
>
> Who's talking about porn here? I've got the handcuffs, the gag and
> the strap-on. Bend over, let's have some fun.
Shades of Bianca Butthole!
http://www.xmfan.com/viewtopic.php?t=22380
There's also the song called "Strap On" that she did on the Meatmen EP:
>>Enjoy it while you can, because the buttholes in Ohio who put
>>President Stupid back in office have also wreaked this on us:
>>
>>http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1125318960389&rss=newswire
>
>
> And did you look at the dweeb in question? Talk about
> self-destructive behaviour, he's chopping off his only plausible
> outlet...
Never underestimate the power of uptight white people to screw things up
for everyone else.
Some Guy
Troll. <g>
Some Guy
Sounds like the Republican National Convention.
Some Guy
But you did ask for Dirk's opinion, which proves my point.
Kaos
<dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> dared speak in front of ME:
>Kaos wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 03:36:31 GMT, Dirk Collins wrote:
>>>Yeah! Roleplaying has been changed into a win-lose proposition,
>>>instead of a win-win proposition for both the players and GM. The
>>>time it takes without good software to prep a fun game is
>>>excrutiating,
>>
>>
>> You're doing it wrong.
>
>Am Not.
You clearly are. Stop lying to yourself, it's holding you back.
Kaos
<michae...@cox.net> dared speak in front of ME:
Real Men(tm)
(no, I'm not one of them. I'm the one with the strap-on.)
Don
Sounds like the Democratic National Convention.
No 33 Secretary
Or the Republican National Convention. I mean, it's not like you can tell
them apart without checking the TV Guide.
Jim Davies
multitude thus:
...
>Yeah! Roleplaying has been changed into a win-lose proposition,
>instead of a win-win proposition for both the players and GM. The
>time it takes without good software to prep a fun game is
>excrutiating, and storytelling and heroics have been sacrificed in
>favor of repetitive mechanics and a mind boggling array of
>choices.
Poor troll.
Looks a little more convincing because you have more form for
stupidity than trolling, but poor all the same.
.
--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim
D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org
Jim Davies
multitude thus:
>There's something wrong with his writing style?
These are extracts taken at random from a later work of his, LEJENDARY
ASTERoGUES (sic). Admittedly it's a Beta, so some of the grammar might
have been mistakes.
-- begin --
Pretense: Add two points to Health only when initially selecting this.
All having to do with acting, theatrics, and thespianism also assumed
identities, blandishments, bribery, cajoling, coaxing, deception,
espionage, forged material and forgery, imposture, inducement,
instigation, provocation, seduction, wheedling disappearing (as an
identifiable person), anonymity, nondescriptness, and disguise.
-- end --
Spot the thesaurus. It's almost in alphabetical order.
-- begin --
Where harm is concerned, and the effects of the harm are sought to be
mitigated, then either luck Ability or Speed Base Rating, less
penalties, or a combination of both, are used. In life or death
situations where some massive harm is concerned, the Legend Master can
employ the following Avoidance Check Optional: If a check against
modified Speed Base Rating succeeds, all harm is avoided; if the
result is above that number but no greater than equal to twice
modified Speed Base Rating, then only one-half the indicated harm is
suffered; 10% of luck Ability can be added to the modified Speed BR.
Luck alone can be used to modify one result only, either a total
failure so as to become a partial success if the check against luck
Ability succeeds, or a partial failure to become a successful
avoidance in the case of a check against luck Ability succeeding.
-- end --
It makes your head bend out of shape.
-- begin --
Alter Vibrations: The Extraordinary Power that gives the capacity to
change the molecular vibrations of the body of the able individual or
a subject touched for the space of an instant so as to in effect be
immaterial in one ABC of time. This will automatically divest the
individual of all worn, affixed to the body, or carried. In the case
of a simultaneously harm-causing event, including a fall, the capacity
will prevent any harm that is not continuing past the moment from
occurring to the individual. Touching another or the latter use
requires a successful Ability employment roll to operate, as timing
must be precise.
-- end --
uh?
And I just discovered a new word in there: "agathocathological". This
is a genuine, real, word. It's in the Shorter OED.
IMO - my honest thanks for inventing the hobby (with help), but since
then he should STFU and admit that other people do it better.
Dirk Collins
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:30:15 GMT, Dirk Collins
> <dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>Kaos wrote:
>>>You're doing it wrong.
>>
>>Am Not.
>
> You clearly are. Stop lying to yourself, it's holding you back.
Am not.
Samuel Clemens? You quoting the guy who wrote stories for the
equivalent of the National Enquirer of his time... Sheesh.
Dirk Collins
> Real Men(tm)
>
> (no, I'm not one of them. I'm the one with the strap-on.)
You have it on backwards, tard.
Dirk Collins
> IMO - my honest thanks for inventing the hobby (with help), but since
> then he should STFU and admit that other people do it better.
Feh. He goes one step better, and sponsors others that are later
published or co-published. Adding some great RPG resources for GMs
in the process.
Re,
Dirk
Dirk Collins
> Poor troll.
>
> Looks a little more convincing because you have more form for
> stupidity than trolling, but poor all the same.
Yeah, but that troll is workin' this crowd pretty good...
Telendil Silverleaf
Okay, as much as I dislike that word, that was frickin' funny. :-P
Malachias Invictus
"Dirk Collins" <dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> wrote in message
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
>> Shut the .... up, Dirk. No one cares.
>
> Try harder next time, you just might succeed at whatever it is you are
> really trying to do.
Already did, bub.
> I don't think you'll be successful though.
You would lose that bet.
Dirk Collins
>>I don't think you'll be successful though.
>
>
> You would lose that bet.
Keep reading.
Malachias Invictus
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 03:36:31 GMT, Dirk Collins
> <dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>
>>> Telendil Silverleaf wrote:
>>>>I'm kind of confused. Is he universally despised by the gaming
>>>>community, universally loved, or somewhere in between?
>>>
>>> demonstrate this by screwing the players whenever possible" style of
>>> gaming. His adventure modules almost invariably have unfair, instakill
>>> traps, many of them undetectable.
>>
>>He did not. It's not his fault that many other GM's and players
>>lacked imagination and had even less initiative to improve the game.
>>
>>> Gaming has passed him by. Modern takes on the role of the DM are very
>>> different, and most of us have no wish to return to the bad old days.
>>
>>Yeah! Roleplaying has been changed into a win-lose proposition,
>>instead of a win-win proposition for both the players and GM. The
>>time it takes without good software to prep a fun game is
>>excrutiating,
>
No, he is just a simpleton.
Malachias Invictus
"Dirk Collins" <dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> wrote in message
> chaos...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Telendil Silverleaf wrote:
>>>I'm kind of confused. Is he universally despised by the gaming
>>>community, universally loved, or somewhere in between?
>>
>> He's very divisive. Basically, he pioneered the "DM is God, and should
>> demonstrate this by screwing the players whenever possible" style of
>> gaming. His adventure modules almost invariably have unfair, instakill
>> traps, many of them undetectable.
>
> He did not.
Plenty were close enough.
> It's not his fault that many other GM's and players lacked imagination and
> had even less initiative to improve the game.
Dave Hargrave seemed to do just fine.
>> Gaming has passed him by. Modern takes on the role of the DM are very
>> different, and most of us have no wish to return to the bad old days.
>
> Yeah! Roleplaying has been changed into a win-lose proposition,
Nonsense.
> instead of a win-win proposition for both the players and GM.
Nonsense.
> The time it takes without good software to prep a fun game is
> excrutiating,
Only if you are a moron, you fucking crybaby. I spend hours working on *my*
games because I actually *enjoy* doing so. Character development and plot
development takes the vast majority of this time; game mechanics are easy to
throw in once they are familiar.
> and storytelling and heroics have been sacrificed
In your game, maybe.
> in favor of repetitive mechanics
Is there something wrong with mechanics being repetitive? Repetitive
mechanics are a tremendous boon; they allow more mental energy to be devoted
to the good stuff, rather than memorizing esoteric exceptions to every rule.
> and a mind boggling array of choices.
Yes, because choices are *bad*, right?
> The Winners; Those you spend the money and take the time to memorize every
> arcane rule, optional rule, and variation thereof.
Silly boy. To do so is trivial. To eliminate unwanted rules and simplify
the game is a trifle.
> The Losers; The folks that want a simple fun game that can be played to a
> reasonable conclusion in just one evening.
Play Sorry or Clue, fuckwit.
Malachias Invictus
> One of the voices in my head - or was it Kevin Venzke? - just said...
>> There's something wrong with his writing style?
>
> "They occasionally go devoid of raiment" instead of "they sometimes
> don't wear clothes"?
>
> As others have said, somewhat flavourful, but needlessly wordy and not
> very good at *conveying* *information*.
Personally, that was one of the things I *did* like. It facilitated me
having an obnoxious "$3.00 word" vocabulary when I was 10.
Dirk Collins
> "Dirk Collins" wrote:
>>It's not his fault that many other GM's and players lacked imagination and
>>had even less initiative to improve the game.
>
> Dave Hargrave seemed to do just fine.
The volumes of the Arduin Grimoire was a fine addition to the
game, as was the Judges Guild supplements and books. I had the
original books of AG once, and have the final softcover
comprehensive addition now.
>>The Losers; The folks that want a simple fun game that can be played to a
>>reasonable conclusion in just one evening.
>
>
> Play Sorry or Clue...
I would, but you're hogging the Sorry pieces, and the Professor
Plum card.
Kaos
<dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> dared speak in front of ME:
>Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
>> Shut the .... up, Dirk. No one cares.
>
>you succeed at whatever you do.
Some careful editing to reveal your true thoughts.
We know you want Mal, desperately. Your mouth aches for his meat.
But he's not interested.
Kaos
<dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> dared speak in front of ME:
>Kaos wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:30:15 GMT, Dirk Collins
>> <dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> dared speak in front of ME:
>>
>>>Kaos wrote:
>>>>You're doing it wrong.
>>>
>>>Am Not.
>>
>> You clearly are. Stop lying to yourself, it's holding you back.
>
>Am not.
Are too.
>Samuel Clemens?
I suppose you'd prefer I quote Gene Ray?
Kaos
<dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> dared speak in front of ME:
>Jim Davies wrote:
Most of us are watching you scramble to find the net, unaware that
it's tangled itself round your own neck.
Kaos
<dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> dared speak in front of ME:
Yet you still managed to wrap your lips firmly around the shaft.
Now keep bobbing your head like a good little slave.
No 33 Secretary
news:abqfh1t2q650uan7m...@4ax.com:
> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 01:13:18 GMT, Dirk Collins
> <dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>Kaos wrote:
>>
>>> Real Men(tm)
>>>
>>> (no, I'm not one of them. I'm the one with the strap-on.)
>>
>>You have it on backwards, tard.
>
> Yet you still managed to wrap your lips firmly around the shaft.
> Now keep bobbing your head like a good little slave.
>
What do you expect from a guy named "Dork" who can't even spell his own
name right?
Dirk Collins
> What do you expect from a guy named "Dork" who can't even spell his own
> name right?
Awwwwww. How cute. Envy.
Kaos
<taustin...@hyperbooks.com> dared speak in front of ME:
>Kaos <ka...@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in
>news:abqfh1t2q650uan7m...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 01:13:18 GMT, Dirk Collins
>> <dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> dared speak in front of ME:
>>
>>>Kaos wrote:
>>>
>>>> Real Men(tm)
>>>>
>>>> (no, I'm not one of them. I'm the one with the strap-on.)
>>>
>>>You have it on backwards, tard.
>>
>> Yet you still managed to wrap your lips firmly around the shaft.
>> Now keep bobbing your head like a good little slave.
>>
>What do you expect from a guy named "Dork" who can't even spell his own
>name right?
Lots of enthusiasm but not much technique. Which is pretty much what
I'm getting.
Malachias Invictus
> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 21:36:24 -0000, No 33 Secretary
> <taustin...@hyperbooks.com> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>Kaos <ka...@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in
>>news:abqfh1t2q650uan7m...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 01:13:18 GMT, Dirk Collins
>>> <dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> dared speak in front of ME:
>>>
>>>>Kaos wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Real Men(tm)
>>>>>
>>>>> (no, I'm not one of them. I'm the one with the strap-on.)
>>>>
>>>>You have it on backwards, tard.
>>>
>>> Yet you still managed to wrap your lips firmly around the shaft.
>>> Now keep bobbing your head like a good little slave.
>>>
>>What do you expect from a guy named "Dork" who can't even spell his own
>>name right?
>
> Lots of enthusiasm but not much technique. Which is pretty much what
> I'm getting.
Heh.
Dirk Collins
> Lots of enthusiasm but not much technique. Which is pretty much what
> I'm getting.
Go chum the waters elsewhere, tard...
Terry Austin
news:ssoih1dbrhc3mus8n...@4ax.com:
> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 21:36:24 -0000, No 33 Secretary
> <taustin...@hyperbooks.com> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>Kaos <ka...@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in
>>news:abqfh1t2q650uan7m...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 01:13:18 GMT, Dirk Collins
>>> <dirk.c...@Earthlink.Net> dared speak in front of ME:
>>>
>>>>Kaos wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Real Men(tm)
>>>>>
>>>>> (no, I'm not one of them. I'm the one with the strap-on.)
>>>>
>>>>You have it on backwards, tard.
>>>
>>> Yet you still managed to wrap your lips firmly around the shaft.
>>> Now keep bobbing your head like a good little slave.
>>>
>>What do you expect from a guy named "Dork" who can't even spell his own
>>name right?
>
> Lots of enthusiasm but not much technique. Which is pretty much what
> I'm getting.
>
Maybe you should buy him a manual.
--
Terry Austin
http://www.hyperbooks.com/
Campaign Cartographer Now Available