[FME] Skills revisited
Bradd W. Szonye
Europe." I plan to use it for articles related to the pseudo-historical
fantasy setting I began with the "basic classes" article, much like
Keith uses "kjc-imc" for his articles. I originally considered the name
"D20 Medieval" or "OGL Medieval," but some of my plans are incompatible
with the D20 license, and using "OGL" as a code-name for "D20" is
cheesy, IMO. (For one thing, OGL is a copyright-sharing license, not a
game system -- OGL games need not be D20-compatible.)
For the FME setting, I'm planning to reorganize skills. More on this
later. For now, I'd simply like some feedback on my plans for skills.
Some changes are cosmetic, and some are radical.
General
Every class has a different set of skill aptitudes, which determine the
cost and maximum rank for each skill. It's similar to the "cross-class"
system, except that aptitude gives the cost of buying a skill in ranks
per skill point. There are four standard aptitude levels.
1 Specialist
3/4 Good
1/2 Normal
1/3 Poor
A character's maximum rank in a skill is his character level times his
best aptitude with that skill. For example, a 1st-level character has a
Specialist Craft skill. His maximum rank in Craft is 1, and he can spend
1 skill point to get 1 rank. At 2nd level, his maximum rank increases to
2, and he can spend another point for a total of 2 ranks. At 3rd level,
he changes to a class with Normal Craft skill. His best Craft aptitude
is Specialist, so his maximum rank increases to 3, but his current
aptitude is only Normal (1/2), so he'll need to spend twice as many
skill points to stay at Specialist-level ranks.
Every skill belongs to one of six skill groups, one for each key ability
score. Each skill group has a rating equal to its key ability modifier.
For each rating point above zero, you may assign a +1 bonus to any skill
in that skill group to reflect natural talent, childhood pursuits,
apprenticeships, etc. You may assign the bonuses before play or save
them until later. The bonuses stack, but you may not assign more than a
+3 bonus to any one skill. For each rating point below zero, you must
spend skill points equal to the penalty before you can improve any
skills in that group, unless otherwise noted. (You only need to "buy
off" the penalty once per group, not once per skill.) Permanent and
semi-permanent changes to the key ability modifier affect the skill
group rating; detailed rules for this are TBD.
All classes receive the same number of skill points per level. The exact
number is TBD, but will probably be 10 or 12 skill points. Yes, this
implies that classes buy BAB, BSB, and spellcasting abilities with skill
points. Note that the aptitude levels include fighter BAB (Specialist),
cleric BAB (Good), wizard BAB (Normal), "good" saves (Normal), "poor"
saves (Poor), class skill cost (Specialist), and cross-class skill cost
(Normal). Exact details on the skill list and rules will follow in a
later article.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Justisaur
news:slrnc2qsm0.g...@szonye.com:
> For the FME setting, I'm planning to reorganize skills. More on this
> later. For now, I'd simply like some feedback on my plans for skills.
> Some changes are cosmetic, and some are radical.
>
Quite a change there. It looks like it's workable. I think you'd need to
playtest it to be sure.
--
Richard L. Pilliard II
http://justisaur.tripod.com/well.htm for my encounter generator, xp
calculator & other files.
Bradd W. Szonye
>> For the FME setting, I'm planning to reorganize skills. More on this
>> later. For now, I'd simply like some feedback on my plans for skills.
>> Some changes are cosmetic, and some are radical.
Justisaur wrote:
> Quite a change there. It looks like it's workable. I think you'd
> need to playtest it to be sure.
Thanks. I think it could work. It's sort of experimental, and it's still
in very early stages. Some of the ideas have "legacy" influence in that
I wouldn't do it that way in an all-new RPG, but I think they might work
for a D&D-like game. Likewise, there are some elements that I would
normally argue against. For example, I usually like "organic" class
creation rather than "there's a class for every combination of two prime
ability scores." And the stuff I've designed so far looks a lot like
point-based systems. Normally, I'd argue vehemently that it's the wrong
way to do things, but (1) this *is* an experiment, and (2) to be honest,
I don't think it's the *best* way to do a class system, but it's not a
*horrible* way to do it.
Matt Pillsbury
[...]
> exact number is TBD, but will probably be 10 or 12 skill
> points. Yes, this implies that classes buy BAB, BSB, and
> spellcasting abilities with skill points.
At the risk of making your system resemble point-based char. gen. even
more, you could split "BAB" into two or three different attack boni,
one for missile weapons, one for melee weapons, and possibly one for
unarmed attacks. This will be helpful when you want to distinguish
between two quite different concepts that share a single class. Your
skirmishers will differ more sharply from your archers, for instance.
--
Matt Pillsbury
pillsy[at]mac[dot]com
Jeff Heikkinen
(snip, snip, munch, munch, burp)
I'm not sure I can comment on this without knowing what you're trying to
accomplish, and why the existing system falls short. What exactly are
the effects you're looking for here?
One concern I already have is that 1st level characters don't get the
usual extra load of skill points and higher skill caps. I would have a
problem with a) making first level characters any weaker than they
already are and b) not having those extra points to reflect the
character's many years of pre-adventuring-career learning. First level
characters in low-SP classes already feel a little too much like they
sprung fully grown from the head of Jupiter for my tastes - I want even
starting characters to have some sort of sense of history.
Jasin Zujovic
Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> Every skill belongs to one of six skill groups, one for each key ability
> score. Each skill group has a rating equal to its key ability modifier.
> For each rating point above zero, you may assign a +1 bonus to any skill
> in that skill group to reflect natural talent, childhood pursuits,
> apprenticeships, etc. You may assign the bonuses before play or save
> them until later. The bonuses stack, but you may not assign more than a
> +3 bonus to any one skill.
So, say that the Str group includes jump, climb and swim. A character
with Str 18 could assign his +4 worth of bonuses among these skills, say,
jump +2, climb +1, swim +1. But not jump +4, because of the +3 max.
Doesn't that mean that ability scores are much less valuable when it
comes to skill use than in D&D? In D&D, Str 18 gives you +4 to all Str
skills.
... or do you mean that under your system, Str 18 give +4 to all Str
skills (like in D&D) *and* you have a further +4 worth of bonuses to
assign among Str skills?
--
Jasin Zujovic
jzuj...@inet.hr
Bradd W. Szonye
>> All classes receive the same number of skill points per level. The
>> exact number is TBD, but will probably be 10 or 12 skill
>> points. Yes, this implies that classes buy BAB, BSB, and
>> spellcasting abilities with skill points.
Matt Pillsbury <m...@seesig.com> wrote:
> At the risk of making your system resemble point-based char. gen. even
> more, you could split "BAB" into two or three different attack boni,
> one for missile weapons, one for melee weapons, and possibly one for
> unarmed attacks.
Yes, that's the plan.
> This will be helpful when you want to distinguish between two quite
> different concepts that share a single class. Your skirmishers will
> differ more sharply from your archers, for instance.
Well, they already will be. I've decided that "archers" (of the "travels
with an army and attacks in formation" variety) belong to the Str+Con
class with all of the other soldiers. To put it another way, there's a
difference between skirmishers (Dex fighters) and warriors (Con
fighters), and there are archers in both groups.
Bradd W. Szonye
> I'm not sure I understood this part.
That's understandable. I rushed a bit to finish this article, and I left
out some significant details.
> Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
>> Every skill belongs to one of six skill groups, one for each key
>> ability score. Each skill group has a rating equal to its key ability
>> modifier. For each rating point above zero, you may assign a +1 bonus
>> to any skill in that skill group to reflect natural talent, childhood
>> pursuits, apprenticeships, etc. You may assign the bonuses before
>> play or save them until later. The bonuses stack, but you may not
>> assign more than a +3 bonus to any one skill.
> ... do you mean that under your system, Str 18 give +4 to all Str
> skills (like in D&D) *and* you have a further +4 worth of bonuses to
> assign among Str skills?
Yes. The "skill group bonus" replaces the extra 3x skill points at first
level and the Intelligence bonus to skill points. It's based on an idea
posted on rgfd a few months back. (Sorry, I don't remember who invented
it.) Instead of making Intelligence the only "learning" ability, all of
the ability scores have a small effect on background and learning
ability (at least during character creation). I think it'll have roughly
the same overall result, although I might need to double the number of
bonuses earned for high stats.
Note that this alone makes the project ineligible for the D20 license:
It describes character creation and (slightly) changes the meaning of
the ability scores.
Bradd W. Szonye
> I'm not sure I can comment on this without knowing what you're trying
> to accomplish, and why the existing system falls short. What exactly
> are the effects you're looking for here?
Part of the goal is to reflect the social class divisions in medieval
society better. I felt that the easiest way to do this was to extend the
"job" skills (Craft, Profession, Knowledge, Perform) so that each major
social class has its own job skill. For example, instead of BAB,
warriors take Combat skill (with subskills for melee, ranged, etc).
Because of that, I wanted to reduce the effects of Intelligence on skill
points. Otherwise, Intelligence would have much too large an effect on
combat and magical skills. I figured it would be better to have each
ability score give a small bonus to learning related skills, instead of
having one ability make a large difference to any skill.
> One concern I already have is that 1st level characters don't get the
> usual extra load of skill points and higher skill caps.
That's the point of the skill group bonus. I think the system I
presented should result in about the same number of extra skill points
at first level. The D&D system gives you 3 extra ranks per Int bonus. My
proposed system gives you 1 extra "pseudo-rank" per ability bonus.
They're actually unnamed bonuses, not ranks, so you'd need to lower
prestige class skill requirements by 3 ranks to fit this system.
> I would have a problem with a) making first level characters any
> weaker than they already are and b) not having those extra points to
> reflect the character's many years of pre-adventuring-career learning.
That's what the skill group bonus is for. Although -- oops! I just
realized that I've accounted for the Int bonus but not the class skill
points! In D&D, you get an extra
(3 x skill points by class) + (3 x Int modifier)
skill points at 1st level. The system I proposed includes the latter
bonus (using all abilities instead of just Int), but I completely
dropped the first term! I'll need to think about that and decide the
best way to fix it.
> First level characters in low-SP classes already feel a little too
> much like they sprung fully grown from the head of Jupiter for my
> tastes - I want even starting characters to have some sort of sense of
> history.
Note that all classes get the same skill points in FME. In D&D, all
classes have roughly the same amount of skill, but fighters "spend" it
on feats and BAB, wizards "spend" it on spellcasting, etc. In FME, they
actually have the same number of skill points, and the player chooses
whether to spend them in the D&D pattern.
Bradd W. Szonye
described by Jeff Heikkinen:
Bradd W. Szonye <bradd...@szonye.com> wrote:
> Every class has a different set of skill aptitudes, which determine
> the cost and maximum rank for each skill. It's similar to the
> "cross-class" system, except that aptitude gives the cost of buying a
> skill in ranks per skill point. There are four standard aptitude
> levels.
>
> 1 Specialist
> 3/4 Good
> 1/2 Normal
> 1/3 Poor
>
> A character's maximum rank in a skill is his character level times his
> best aptitude with that skill .... All classes receive the same number
> of skill points per level. The exact number is TBD, but will probably
> be 10 or 12 skill points.
To reflect natural talent, childhood pursuits, apprentices, etc., every
character also receives background points that he can spend to improve
his skills (and possibly other benefits). All characters start with 30
background points[1] minus the total of all ability penalties.[2] For
example, a character built on the elite array of ability scores would
have 29 background points. The character may spend a background point to
obtain a +1 background bonus to any skill.[3] Background bonuses stack,
but a character may not have more than a +3 background bonus to any one
skill.
Characters also receive background points for high ability scores. For
each ability score greater than 11, the character receives background
points equal to the ability bonus. You may only spend these points on
benefits related to the ability that granted the bonus: the benefit must
have that ability as a prerequisite or key ability score. For example,
if the character has 17 Strength, he receives 3 background points. He
may spend the points to receive background bonuses to Swim (because its
key ability score is Strength) but not Profession (which is
Wisdom-related).
You need not spend all of a character's background points during
character creation. Instead, you may save them until you learn more
about the character's background, interests, and needs.
[1] Actually (3 x skill points per level). The 30 figure is based on the
assumuption that characters receive 10 skill points per level. I
have a feeling that this may be too much; (1.5 x skill points) may
be closer to balance with D&D.
[2] Issue: Should a non-ability count (e.g., undead Constitution) count
as no modifier, or should it subtract 5 from background points?
[3] Note that these are bonuses, not ranks. Do not apply the class
aptitude multiplier to background bonuses. Also, this means that
some rank-based rules, like synergy bonuses and prestige class
requirements, will need some adjustment.
Bradd W. Szonye
draft of the overall relationship between abilities, classes, and skills.
FME has 12 basic classes designed to represent the social classes and
subclasses of medieval Europe. Scholars traditionally divided society
into three classes or "estates": those who pray (clergy), those who
fight (warriors), and those who toil (workers). That categorization is
elegant but oversimplified. The FME class system adds "underworld" and
"citizen" classes to represent the two major groups left out of the
Three Estates. It also includes a "leadership" class, to represent the
non-warrior ruling classes that sprang up during the medieval period:
country gentlemen, peasant officers, town councilors, etc.
The table below lists the two game classes associated with each ability
score and the social class most closely associated with them. Note that
I've swapped Dexterity and Constitution (relative to the "traditional"
order) to better reflect the relationships between ability scores in the
FME setting. Also note that the "cleric" class includes both members of
the secular clergy (priests) and religious orders (monks, friars, and
knights-brethren).
Ability Basic classes Social role
----------------------------------------------------
Strength Warrior, Athlete warrior
Constitution Laborer, Ranger rural worker
Dexterity Rogue, Entertainer underworld
Intelligence Expert, Scholar citizen
Wisdom Cleric, Professional clergy
Charisma Sorceror, Leader varies
Ability modifiers influence related skill checks and background points.
Each ability also modifies one game statistic unrelated to skills:
Ability Special modifier
----------------------------------------------------
Strength most physical damage rolls
Constitution hit points per Hit Die
Dexterity dodge modifier to Defense Class
Intelligence occult effects (natural magic)
Wisdom divine effects (prayer)
Charisma magical effects (sorcery)
Three special skills provide characters with a general defense against
non-targeted attacks like environmental effects and some kinds of magic.
Each general defense skill has two key ability scores. Add the lesser of
the two key ability modifiers to the defense check. Some feats permit
characters to use the greater modifier instead. (Note: General defense
skills serve the same purpose as saving throws, but the scale of the
modifiers is different.)
Skill Key Ability Scores
---------------------------------------
Fortitude Strength, Constitution
Reflex Dexterity, Intelligence
Will Wisdom, Charisma
Each basic class specializes in a primary skill group, a collection of
closely related skills. Members of the class can purchase skills at the
Specialist rate (1 rank per point). The table below lists all of the
classes and primary skill groups; detailed descriptions follow the
table.
Class Skill Brief description
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Warrior (War) Combat attack and defense skills
Athlete (Ath) Athletics climbing, running, jumping, etc.
Laborer (Lbr) Labor unskilled physical labor
Ranger (Rgr) Survival hunting, orienteering, perception
Rogue (Rog) Stealth sneaking and thieving
Entertainer (Ent) Perform most performing arts
Expert (Exp) Expertise skilled labor and visual arts
Scholar (Sch) Knowledge academic skills, language, literacy
Cleric (Clr) Faith religion, prayer, and ministry
Professional (Pro) Profession advanced, non-physical job skills
Sorcerer (Src) Sorcery unnatural magic
Leader (Ldr) Influence communication and verbal arts
Combat (Str; Warrior)
Skills: Guard, Melee Weapons, Mounted Attack, Ranged Weapons, Simple
Weapons, Unarmed Combat, Untrained Attack.
This skill group comprises the primary skills of the warrior class. Most
of the skills determine or limit a character's attack rolls. Use the
Unarmed Combat skill for unarmed strikes, grapple checks, and natural
weapon attacks. Use the Melee Weapons or Ranged Weapons skill for
attacks with manufactured weapons. If the weapon is simple, the
character may use the Simple Weapons skill instead.
The Mounted Attack and Untrained Attack skills limit a character's skill
with certain attack forms. When attacking from horseback, use the normal
Combat skill or the Mounted Attack skill, whichever is lower. When
wielding an exotic, improvised, or unusual weapon (i.e., whenever the
character lacks proficiency with his weapon), use the normal Combat
skill or the Untrained Attack skill, whichever is lower.
A character may make a Guard check as a standard action. Until his next
turn, the character and any ally within his reach may use the check
result instead of their normal Defense Classes.
Note: Strength is the key ability score for all Combat skills, even for
ranged combat. Many ranged weapons reduce the Strength bonus to attack
(and damage) rolls. Some feats permit characters to use Dexterity as the
key ability for Combat skills instead of Strength.
Athletics (Str; Athlete)
Skills: Climb, Jump, Run, Swim, Ride.
The Athletics skill group governs physical movement skills that rely
more on muscle than grace or agility. [Details TBD. Run skill is used
for footraces so that characters with equal Speed can actually catch up
or get away. Ride skill is a questionable fit, but it doesn't fit either
Dex skill.]
Labor (Con; Laborer)
Skills: Carrying, Construction, Farming, Fishing, Husbandry, etc.
The Labor skill group governs "unskilled" physical labor. [Details TBD.
Carrying affects carrying capacity.]
Survival (Con; Ranger)
Skills: Hunting, Orienteering, Perception, Tracking, etc.
These skills measure a character's ability to survive in the wilderness.
Hunting includes spearhunting, bowhunting, and spearfishing. If a
character lies in wait with an appropriate weapon and surprises his foe,
he may substitute a Hunting check for an attack roll. Orienteering
includes direction sense, gathering supplies, and finding shelter. Use
Perception checks to detect creatures or objects by sight, hearing,
smell, or other senses. [More details TBD. Need to decide whether Search
is part of Perception, a separate Survival skill, or an Expertise
skill.]
Stealth (Dex; Rogue)
Skills: Conceal, Hide, Pick Pockets, Sneak, etc.
Use Conceal to stash an object on your person or in a safe place. Use
Sneak to escape detection while you're moving, Hide when you're still;
the Perception for the opposed roll. Make one Sneak check per move
action. You may use a Sneak check instead of an attack roll when your
opponent is denied his dodge bonus to Defense. A Pick Pockets check
[Difficulty Class TBD] to steal a small object from a creature; you can
also use a Pick Pockets check to plant an object. [More details TBD.]
Perform (Dex; Entertainer)
Skills: Balance, Dance, Juggle, Mime, Musical Instrument, Tumble, etc.
The Perform group includes most performing arts. However, it does not
include purely vocal, communication-oriented arts like oratory, poetry,
and song (see Influence). [Details TBD. Might significantly change the
rules for Tumble, e.g. make it a standard action or make it replace your
Defense Class instead of granting immunity to AOOs. Dance and musical
skills might permit natural magic or sorcery use.]
Expertise (Int; Expert)
Skills: Alchemy, Craft, Disable, Disguise, Forgery, Scribe, etc.
The Expertise group governs "skilled" physical labor and technical
skills with a significant physical element. It does not include purely
academic skills (see Knowledge), religious skills (see Faith), or skills
which rely more on experience and judgment than on technique (see
Profession).
Note that Craft is a single skill, not a skill group. To work for pay or
create a normal-quality item, a character must take the Journeyman feat
(prerequisite: Craft +5) for the appropriate kind of item. You may
upgrade a Journeyman feat to a Master Craftsman feat for free as soon as
you meet the prerequisites (Craft +10, must create a normal-quality item
and have permission from your master or your guild). Master Craftsmen
can use natural magic or sorcerery to give an item magical properties by
using an appropriate Craft Secret feat (prerequisites vary).
Knowledge (Int; Scholar)
Skills: Arcana, Geography, Heraldry, History, Languages, Literacy, etc.
The Knowledge and Religion groups comprise the "lore" skills used to
determine what a character knows about scholarly and religious topics.
The knowledge group covers secular lore.
Arcana subsumes Spellcraft. Some feats use the Arcana skill to determine
level of spellcasting ability for formulaic spells (natural magic or
sorcery). Languages and Literacy work roughly like Speak Language; at
high skill levels, the character can understand unfamiliar spoken or
written languages, much like Decipher Script. Knowledge does not include
religious lore (see Faith). [More details TBD.]
Faith (Wis; Cleric)
Skills: Abjuration, Ministry, Prayer, Theology, etc.
The Faith group covers religious teachings, the other half of the "lore"
skills. Most Faith skills also permit the invocation of divine power
[i.e., divine spellcasting] with the right feats. Abjuration deals with
techniques for driving out demons, elves, poisons, and sickness.
Ministry deals with counseling, morale, and administration of holy
sacraments. Prayer deals with requests for divine intervention to aid
allies or smite enemies. [More details TBD. Does the Concentration skill
belong here?]
Profession (Wis; Professional)
Skills: Apothecary, Architect, Engineer, Innkeeper, Physician, etc.
The Profession group comprises occupations which require significant
judgment, experience, or business sense but little physical labor.
[Details TBD.]
Sorcery (Cha; Sorcerer)
Skills: Conjure, Curse, etc.
Sorcery is one of the three major ways to create "magical" effects.
Natural magic is the practice of manipulating occult (secret) properties
of the natural world; it is a precursor of science. Prayers ask God,
angels, or saints to intercede on one's behalf; most people think of
prayer as miraculous, not magical. Sorcery is the only true "magic." It
is the art of commanding demons, elves, nature, and gods to bend nature
to one's will.
Conjuring includes both illusion and summoning. Curses include a variety
of effects. [More skills and details TBD.]
Influence (Cha; Leader)
Skills: Bluff, Persuade, Impress, Negotiate, Sing, etc.
The Influence group deals with verbal and written communication,
including verbal arts like poetry and singing.
Use Bluff to conceal your true intentions. [Perception is tentatively
the opposed skill.] Persuasion includes begging, fast-talking, and
intimidation. Impress is for making general first impressions. [More
details TBD. Maybe need a better name for Impress.]
Douglas
> The detailed skill list is not ready yet, but I have worked out a rough
> draft of the overall relationship between abilities, classes, and skills.
>
> FME has 12 basic classes designed to represent the social classes and
> subclasses of medieval Europe.
I get the idea from your recent posts that you're concentrating on the
Late Middle Ages - you mentioned 1350 in another post - so I'm
assuming that in all the comments to follow. I'm no game designer,
unlike others here, so I'll ignore game balance etc.;I'm just thinking
about these classes as a "game Middle Ages" that would be simple
enough to be playable.
Scholars traditionally divided society
> into three classes or "estates": those who pray (clergy), those who
> fight (warriors), and those who toil (workers). That categorization is
> elegant but oversimplified. The FME class system adds "underworld" and
> "citizen" classes to represent the two major groups left out of the
> Three Estates. It also includes a "leadership" class, to represent the
> non-warrior ruling classes that sprang up during the medieval period:
> country gentlemen, peasant officers, town councilors, etc.
"Citizen" I like; maybe you could broaden "underworld" to an idea like
"wanderer" or "outsider". How about "lordless", as a catch-all for all
those fringe characters in medieval society?
>
> The table below lists the two game classes associated with each ability
> score and the social class most closely associated with them. Note that
> I've swapped Dexterity and Constitution (relative to the "traditional"
> order) to better reflect the relationships between ability scores in the
> FME setting. Also note that the "cleric" class includes both members of
> the secular clergy (priests) and religious orders (monks, friars, and
> knights-brethren).
>
> Ability Basic classes Social role
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Strength Warrior, Athlete warrior
> Constitution Laborer, Ranger rural worker
> Dexterity Rogue, Entertainer underworld
> Intelligence Expert, Scholar citizen
> Wisdom Cleric, Professional clergy
> Charisma Sorceror, Leader varies
>
OK, one or two of these don't look attractive options for players, but
as a model, most of the classes look sensible. A few comments follow:
<snip>
>
> Class Skill Brief description
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Warrior (War) Combat attack and defense skills
> Athlete (Ath) Athletics climbing, running, jumping, etc.
> Laborer (Lbr) Labor unskilled physical labor
> Ranger (Rgr) Survival hunting, orienteering, perception
> Rogue (Rog) Stealth sneaking and thieving
> Entertainer (Ent) Perform most performing arts
> Expert (Exp) Expertise skilled labor and visual arts
> Scholar (Sch) Knowledge academic skills, language, literacy
> Cleric (Clr) Faith religion, prayer, and ministry
> Professional (Pro) Profession advanced, non-physical job skills
> Sorcerer (Src) Sorcery unnatural magic
> Leader (Ldr) Influence communication and verbal arts
>
>
> Athletics (Str; Athlete)
> Skills: Climb, Jump, Run, Swim, Ride.
>
> The Athletics skill group governs physical movement skills that rely
> more on muscle than grace or agility. [Details TBD. Run skill is used
> for footraces so that characters with equal Speed can actually catch up
> or get away. Ride skill is a questionable fit, but it doesn't fit either
> Dex skill.]
I see the need for this group of skills, but I'm convinced by an
Athlete class as a medieval archetype. (Of course, I'm assuming that
you're thinking of classes as archetypes, not just skill-packages.
Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here.)
> Labor (Con; Laborer)
> Skills: Carrying, Construction, Farming, Fishing, Husbandry, etc.
>
> The Labor skill group governs "unskilled" physical labor. [Details TBD.
> Carrying affects carrying capacity.]
>
I don't know how far down the economic scale you want your Middle Ages
to go, but if you boost the importance of these primary production
skills to a similar level as the Expert/Profession, it could model
worthy, if low-class NPCs, who are of real importance to their manor
or town. But does this kind of "folk-knowledge" skill blurr the lines
with Expert/Profession? (e.g. An Expert Cabinetmaker always gets his
materials from Hal the Woodsman.)
<snip>
>
> Perform (Dex; Entertainer)
> Skills: Balance, Dance, Juggle, Mime, Musical Instrument, Tumble, etc.
>
> The Perform group includes most performing arts. However, it does not
> include purely vocal, communication-oriented arts like oratory, poetry,
> and song (see Influence). [Details TBD. Might significantly change the
> rules for Tumble, e.g. make it a standard action or make it replace your
> Defense Class instead of granting immunity to AOOs. Dance and musical
> skills might permit natural magic or sorcery use.]
>
At first, I thought the overlap between these skills and Influence
were the trickiest area, but I think it's just that the Influence
skills need a bit of definition.
>
<snip>
>
> Influence (Cha; Leader)
> Skills: Bluff, Persuade, Impress, Negotiate, Sing, etc.
>
> The Influence group deals with verbal and written communication,
> including verbal arts like poetry and singing.
>
> Use Bluff to conceal your true intentions. [Perception is tentatively
> the opposed skill.] Persuasion includes begging, fast-talking, and
> intimidation. Impress is for making general first impressions. [More
> details TBD. Maybe need a better name for Impress.
Maybe the name "Leader" for the class is misleading. While I can see
these skills being useful in politics, it is also the skillset of the
conman (pardoner, scrivener, etc) or the beggar. I like the Impress
idea, and wouldn't restrict it to first impressions, as I think
'image' or 'presence' is one of the keys to a medieval feel; the skill
could give you an air of confidence at any critical moment. (Though
you could argue that impressing a crowd is a sort of mass Intimidate
or Bluff.) One thing I would do is move sing up to the perform group,
or allow variant skills in both. A satirical troubadour is one thing,
but a highly-skilled castrato plying his trade in a cathedral has no
reason to be good at any other charisma skill.
A couple of other thoughts. How are you thinking of doing the clerical
magic? Are you thinking in terms of an alternate-history Europe, or a
separate fantasy world with a strong medieval flavour?
Hope that helps.
Douglas
Bradd W. Szonye
>> FME has 12 basic classes designed to represent the social classes and
>> subclasses of medieval Europe.
Douglas <dph...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I get the idea from your recent posts that you're concentrating on the
> Late Middle Ages - you mentioned 1350 in another post - so I'm
> assuming that in all the comments to follow.
Yes. There are a few good periods for adventuring in the medieval
period, but I particularly like the 14th Century because it has most of
the technology and social developments that people expect from D&D.
> I'm no game designer, unlike others here, so I'll ignore game balance
> etc.;I'm just thinking about these classes as a "game Middle Ages"
> that would be simple enough to be playable.
Hey, that's helpful. Thanks for your comments.
>> Scholars traditionally divided society into three classes or
>> "estates": those who pray (clergy), those who fight (warriors), and
>> those who toil (workers). That categorization is elegant but
>> oversimplified. The FME class system adds "underworld" and "citizen"
>> classes ....
> "Citizen" I like; maybe you could broaden "underworld" to an idea like
> "wanderer" or "outsider". How about "lordless", as a catch-all for all
> those fringe characters in medieval society?
Hm, "underworld" was supposed to be pretty broad already. Not all of
them are outsiders or wanderers, although many are. It also includes
undesirables like prostitutes and secular actors.
>> Ability Basic classes Social role
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Strength Warrior, Athlete warrior
>> Constitution Laborer, Ranger rural worker
>> Dexterity Rogue, Entertainer underworld
>> Intelligence Expert, Scholar citizen
>> Wisdom Cleric, Professional clergy
>> Charisma Sorceror, Leader varies
> OK, one or two of these don't look attractive options for players, but
> as a model, most of the classes look sensible. A few comments follow:
On their own, some of them wouldn't be too fun to play. However, all
characters get to choose a couple of skill areas outside their class, so
you can create the village reeve (Laborer with Influence) or a scholar
who studies fencing for self-defense (Scholar with Combat). Also, I plan
for each class to have a set of interesting bonus feats. A simple farmer
would buy "boring" feats, but a peasant hero would take something better
suited for adventuring.
>> Athletics (Str; Athlete)
>> Skills: Climb, Jump, Run, Swim, Ride.
>>
>> The Athletics skill group governs physical movement skills that rely
>> more on muscle than grace or agility. [Details TBD. Run skill is used
>> for footraces so that characters with equal Speed can actually catch up
>> or get away. Ride skill is a questionable fit, but it doesn't fit either
>> Dex skill.]
> I see the need for this group of skills, but I'm [not?] convinced by
> an Athlete class as a medieval archetype. (Of course, I'm assuming
> that you're thinking of classes as archetypes, not just
> skill-packages. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here.)
The classes are supposed to represent a combination of social class and
skills. I'm not too sure of the Athelete as an archetype either; it
seems better-suited to the Classical period or the Renaissance. However,
while it might not be a good fit for a realistic archetype, it works
much better for a *mythical* archetype. There are many middle-age myths
(especially in the earlier pagan days) of people who are famous for some
athletic skill. So this one is questionable as a class, but it fits well
enough that I don't mind too much.
>> Labor (Con; Laborer) Skills: Carrying, Construction, Farming,
>> Fishing, Husbandry, etc.
>>
>> The Labor skill group governs "unskilled" physical labor. [Details
>> TBD. Carrying affects carrying capacity.]
> I don't know how far down the economic scale you want your Middle Ages
> to go, but if you boost the importance of these primary production
> skills to a similar level as the Expert/Profession, it could model
> worthy, if low-class NPCs, who are of real importance to their manor
> or town.
That's the idea. The character would use his secondary attributes to
represent his specific role in the rural economy: Combat for levies,
Survival for wardens, Expertise for the village smith, Profession for
the miller, Influence for the reeve, and so on.
> But does this kind of "folk-knowledge" skill blurr the lines with
> Expert/Profession?
Not sure what you're referring to. Roughly speaking, the Laborer is the
rural peasant, the Expert is the urban craftsman, and the Professional
is the merchant class. The skills are all a bit broader than that, but
that's the guiding principle.
>> Perform (Dex; Entertainer)
>> Skills: Balance, Dance, Juggle, Mime, Musical Instrument, Tumble, etc.
>>
>> The Perform group includes most performing arts. However, it does not
>> include purely vocal, communication-oriented arts like oratory, poetry,
>> and song (see Influence). [Details TBD. Might significantly change the
>> rules for Tumble, e.g. make it a standard action or make it replace your
>> Defense Class instead of granting immunity to AOOs. Dance and musical
>> skills might permit natural magic or sorcery use.]
> At first, I thought the overlap between these skills and Influence
> were the trickiest area, but I think it's just that the Influence
> skills need a bit of definition.
Could be. Later you mention the verbal performance skills as a problem.
I'm a little uncomfortable with them too. They have communication *and*
entertainment value, so they fit thematically with both skills. (You
could also argue that song belongs to the Faith group.) However,
Dexterity seemed inappropriate to me as a key ability score for verbal
skills, so I put them with Influence. A decent argument could persuade
me to move them into Perform or to put the skill in multiple groups.
Indeed, it was originally my plan to have Perform *and* Influence
version of the verbal arts, one for technical skill and one for style.
Likewise, I considered making Craft a dual skill, with both Labor and
Expertise elements. I dropped the idea later, because I didn't want to
force players to spend double the skill points just to get the "whole"
skill.
Hm, I could move acting and song into perform, and use the Impress skill
(part of Influence) to represent showmanship. And of course, some
singers might have high Impress (style) but low Sing (technical skill).
You'd pay double to be a great, impressive singer, but you'd actually
get double the value out of it.
>> Influence (Cha; Leader) Skills: Bluff, Persuade, Impress, Negotiate,
>> Sing, etc.
>>
>> The Influence group deals with verbal and written communication,
>> including verbal arts like poetry and singing.
>>
>> Use Bluff to conceal your true intentions. [Perception is tentatively
>> the opposed skill.] Persuasion includes begging, fast-talking, and
>> intimidation. Impress is for making general first impressions. [More
>> details TBD. Maybe need a better name for Impress.
> Maybe the name "Leader" for the class is misleading. While I can see
> these skills being useful in politics, it is also the skillset of the
> conman (pardoner, scrivener, etc) or the beggar.
The class is for aristocrats: kings, country gentlemen, stewards,
revolutionary leaders, and powerful peasants. However, other classes can
specialize in the skill, so that you can create a con man (Rogue with
Influence) or beggar (Rogue or Ranger with Influence).
> I like the Impress idea, and wouldn't restrict it to first
> impressions, as I think 'image' or 'presence' is one of the keys to a
> medieval feel; the skill could give you an air of confidence at any
> critical moment.
Good point!
> A couple of other thoughts. How are you thinking of doing the clerical
> magic? Are you thinking in terms of an alternate-history Europe, or a
> separate fantasy world with a strong medieval flavour?
It's a fantasy world based on medieval beliefs and legends. So divine
"magic"[*] focuses mostly on blessing, healing, and exorcism, with the
occasional divine retribution. It's not too different from D&D cleric
spells, just organized differently and toned down a bit.
[*] Medieval folk believed that "faith" and "magic" were two different
things. Referring to a clerical miracle as "magic" would be a good
way to get yourself in trouble.
Matthew Campbell
> Douglas <dph...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>> I get the idea from your recent posts that you're concentrating on
>> the Late Middle Ages - you mentioned 1350 in another post - so I'm
>> assuming that in all the comments to follow.
>
>
> Yes. There are a few good periods for adventuring in the medieval
> period, but I particularly like the 14th Century because it has most
> of the technology and social developments that people expect from
> D&D.
I'm curious. Is this just idle tinkering with mechanics for you own
amusement, or are you actually planning on presenting this system to a
group of players and see if they'll go for it?
Myself, if the DM brought this to the table, I'd probably register a
strong vote against playing it. But then, tastes differ, and mine run
more to high magic/high fantasy.
It seems like these rules dicsussions often end up only theoretical, so
if you do bring this to a group of players, I'd love to hear an account
of what they had to say. In particular, if there were any skeptics whom
you were able to persuade to give it a go.
--
Matthew Campbell
Bradd W. Szonye
>> Yes. There are a few good periods for adventuring in the medieval
>> period, but I particularly like the 14th Century because it has most
>> of the technology and social developments that people expect from
>> D&D.
Matthew Campbell wrote:
> I'm curious. Is this just idle tinkering with mechanics for you own
> amusement, or are you actually planning on presenting this system to a
> group of players and see if they'll go for it?
Mostly the former. However, I might suggest playing it if I actually get
it to a playable point before I run out of steam.
> Myself, if the DM brought this to the table, I'd probably register a
> strong vote against playing it. But then, tastes differ, and mine run
> more to high magic/high fantasy.
How is this not high fantasy? One goal is to represent medieval beliefs
and legends more closely than D&D does. That includes some pretty
fantastic stuff. "Historical" does not necessarily mean "gritty" or "low
magic." Indeed, you'd probably see a lot more magic than in D&D, because
even commoners know a little bit.
Douglas
<snip>
>
> > I'm no game designer, unlike others here, so I'll ignore game balance
> > etc.;I'm just thinking about these classes as a "game Middle Ages"
> > that would be simple enough to be playable.
>
> Hey, that's helpful. Thanks for your comments.
I read your other post in response to Matthew. I must say I AM
interested in "medieval fantasy". My feeling is that to get a medieval
"feel", it should be quite high-magic, certainly higher than the
gritty-historic style. (But this has been debated before: just
clearing up my slant on it.)
About the underworld / lordless idea, I see what your getting at, but
I was thinking that not all outsiders are underworld. As a game class
it would work fine.
What I was really thinking about was a legal/social status for
characters. If we go for a medieval setting, "privilege" - private law
- is fundamental. Law depends on who you are - noble, clerk, common,
or Jew, Morisco, Lombard Merchant - not where you are, and people are
normally handed over to their "lord" or community for justice. This
may be an authority that the individual knows and recognises - the
lord of the manor, or it could be someone the character had never
heard of - the clerk at a school who is legally responsible for *all*
wandering scholars, or the head of the Genoese merchants, even if the
character insists he's not Genoese. (That second situation would be
common for wandering PCs, and PCs could find themselves classed
differently in different situations.)
The lordless are people who don't have a clear responsible lord or
legal status: mostly underworld, but also strange foreigners. Other
wanderers would clearly fit a class - scholars, drovers, merchants,
etc.
<snip class list>
>
> On their own, some of them wouldn't be too fun to play. However, all
> characters get to choose a couple of skill areas outside their class, so
> you can create the village reeve (Laborer with Influence) or a scholar
> who studies fencing for self-defense (Scholar with Combat). Also, I plan
> for each class to have a set of interesting bonus feats. A simple farmer
> would buy "boring" feats, but a peasant hero would take something better
> suited for adventuring.
Now a peasant hero, either folklore or historical - would be a nice
idea. I wonder if you would want feats or some mechanism to allow some
Labourers to get druidic-type powers - the wise old shepherd
archetype.
>
> >> Athletics (Str; Athlete)
> >> Skills: Climb, Jump, Run, Swim, Ride.
> >>
<snip Athlete>
So this one is questionable as a class, but it fits well
> enough that I don't mind too much.
Fair enough, I just didn't fancy the idea of everyone being more or
less forced to take one or two Athlete levels just to get the skills
they need; I don't like that use of a class.
>
<snip Labourer>
The character would use his secondary attributes to
> represent his specific role in the rural economy: Combat for levies,
> Survival for wardens, Expertise for the village smith, Profession for
> the miller, Influence for the reeve, and so on.
>
If you're interested in modelling economics, you could have skilled
peasants who produce the finest materials, a quality required for the
expert to produce his masterwork items, or train a good warhorse, etc.
<snip>
Later you mention the verbal performance skills as a problem.
> I'm a little uncomfortable with them too. They have communication *and*
> entertainment value, so they fit thematically with both skills. (You
> could also argue that song belongs to the Faith group.)
Ahh, but then you miss out on the stereotyped monk that can't sing for
toffee. Mandatory comic relief in every cloistered mystery. :-)
However,
> Dexterity seemed inappropriate to me as a key ability score for verbal
> skills, so I put them with Influence. A decent argument could persuade
> me to move them into Perform or to put the skill in multiple groups.
OK, real world argument: singing is all about controlling certain
muscles - just as much as dancing or playing the guitar. In singing,
the only difference is that the muscles are mostly hidden from view.
>
> Indeed, it was originally my plan to have Perform *and* Influence
> version of the verbal arts, one for technical skill and one for style.
I'd go for that.
> Likewise, I considered making Craft a dual skill, with both Labor and
> Expertise elements. I dropped the idea later, because I didn't want to
> force players to spend double the skill points just to get the "whole"
> skill.
>
Starting to get into the whol problem of "skill-granularity" and cost.
Maybe the folks used to GURPS, et. al. have good ideas here.
> Hm, I could move acting and song into perform, and use the Impress skill
> (part of Influence) to represent showmanship. And of course, some
> singers might have high Impress (style) but low Sing (technical skill).
> You'd pay double to be a great, impressive singer, but you'd actually
> get double the value out of it.
On my first read, I thought of Influence (Song) as being more the
troubadour skill: satire, hidden messages, charming or seductive
love-songs, almost bardic inspiration. You could have song creation as
something almost like magic item creation: once the song has been
composed & taught, it could be reproduced using the basic
Perform(Song) skill. What I would do is degrade the power or message
of the song every time it was re-performed, as people forget, revise,
muddle-up etc.
>
<snip>
>
> [Leader) The class is for aristocrats: kings, country gentlemen, stewards,
> revolutionary leaders, and powerful peasants. However, other classes can
> specialize in the skill, so that you can create a con man (Rogue with
> Influence) or beggar (Rogue or Ranger with Influence).
>
Clerk with influence - a "must-have".
> > I like the Impress idea, and wouldn't restrict it to first
> > impressions, as I think 'image' or 'presence' is one of the keys to a
> > medieval feel; the skill could give you an air of confidence at any
> > critical moment.
>
> Good point!
>
I see that working two ways: first, the grand, critial gesture - have
a read over accounts of Richard II and Tyler at Smithfield. Or the
ongoing creation of trust or mistrust - compare Saladin with King
John. This second one might be harder to fit into an RPG, but you
could use a mechanism like the profession skill to judge the loyalty
and confidence you have built or destroyed this week.
>
> It's a fantasy world based on medieval beliefs and legends.
I'll watch out for further posts.
Hope this helps.
Douglas
Bradd W. Szonye
>> Hey, that's helpful. Thanks for your comments.
Douglas wrote:
> I read your other post in response to Matthew. I must say I AM
> interested in "medieval fantasy". My feeling is that to get a medieval
> "feel", it should be quite high-magic, certainly higher than the
> gritty-historic style.
Agreed. As I just mentioned to Wayne Shaw, magic should be ubiquitous in
semi-historical, medieval fantasy settings.
> About the underworld / lordless idea, I see what your getting at, but
> I was thinking that not all outsiders are underworld.
They're not supposed to be. Indeed, the "ranger" class is designed for
non-underworld outsiders like hermits -- it's not just for wanderers.
> What I was really thinking about was a legal/social status for
> characters. If we go for a medieval setting, "privilege" - private law
> - is fundamental. Law depends on who you are - noble, clerk, common,
> or Jew, Morisco, Lombard Merchant - not where you are, and people are
> normally handed over to their "lord" or community for justice. This
> may be an authority that the individual knows and recognises - the
> lord of the manor, or it could be someone the character had never
> heard of - the clerk at a school who is legally responsible for *all*
> wandering scholars, or the head of the Genoese merchants, even if the
> character insists he's not Genoese.
Hm, you're right, but I'm not sure how I'll work it in yet. I don't want
to go that far with the (mechanical) classes -- after all, each class
represents several related professions.
> The lordless are people who don't have a clear responsible lord or
> legal status: mostly underworld, but also strange foreigners.
Some of those would be rangers, rogues, or entertainers, and some would
just be strange foreigners with classes that represent their social role
back home, as you suggest below:
> Other wanderers would clearly fit a class - scholars, drovers,
> merchants, etc.
> Now a peasant hero, either folklore or historical - would be a nice
> idea. I wonder if you would want feats or some mechanism to allow some
> Labourers to get druidic-type powers - the wise old shepherd
> archetype.
Hadn't thought of that specifically, but I definitely plan to give them
some cool "adventurer" options.
>> Later you mention the verbal performance skills as a problem. I'm a
>> little uncomfortable with them too. They have communication *and*
>> entertainment value, so they fit thematically with both skills. (You
>> could also argue that song belongs to the Faith group.)
> Ahh, but then you miss out on the stereotyped monk that can't sing for
> toffee. Mandatory comic relief in every cloistered mystery. :-)
> OK, real world argument: singing is all about controlling certain
> muscles - just as much as dancing or playing the guitar. In singing,
> the only difference is that the muscles are mostly hidden from view.
Heh, OK. You've convinced me. Singing belongs in the Perform group
(Dex), and singing to impress is just the Impress skill.
> I'll watch out for further posts.
> Hope this helps.
It does. Thanks again for your comments!
Roger Carbol
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Strength Warrior, Athlete warrior
> Constitution Laborer, Ranger rural worker
> Dexterity Rogue, Entertainer underworld
> Intelligence Expert, Scholar citizen
> Wisdom Cleric, Professional clergy
> Charisma Sorceror, Leader varies
From the MSRD:
Ability Basic classes Advanced Class
----------------------------------------------------
Strength Strong Hero Soldier; Martial Artist
Constitution Tough Hero Daredevil; Bodyguard
Dexterity Fast Hero Gunslinger; Infiltrator
Intelligence Smart Hero Field Scientist; Techie
Wisdom Dedicated Hero Field Medic; Investigator
Charisma Charismatic Hero Personality; Negotiator
I presume this inspiration is intentional? Or is it merely convergent
evolution?
.. Roger Carbol ..
Bradd W. Szonye
>> Ability Basic classes Social role
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Strength Warrior, Athlete warrior
>> Constitution Laborer, Ranger rural worker
>> Dexterity Rogue, Entertainer underworld
>> Intelligence Expert, Scholar citizen
>> Wisdom Cleric, Professional clergy
>> Charisma Sorceror, Leader varies
Roger Carbol wrote:
> From the MSRD:
>
> Ability Basic classes Advanced Class
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Strength Strong Hero Soldier; Martial Artist
> Constitution Tough Hero Daredevil; Bodyguard
> Dexterity Fast Hero Gunslinger; Infiltrator
> Intelligence Smart Hero Field Scientist; Techie
> Wisdom Dedicated Hero Field Medic; Investigator
> Charisma Charismatic Hero Personality; Negotiator
>
> I presume this inspiration is intentional? Or is it merely convergent
> evolution?
The latter, I suspect. I've been toying with this kind of idea for a
long time now; my original inspiration came from an article by Larry D.
Hols: http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/fiddlydec98.html
D&D uses archetypes as one fashion with which to define characters.
The system also uses a set of six characteristics with which to
define characters. [The] characteristics used don't work to support
all of the archetypes equally. It is important for all parts of a
system to work to support the same vision ....
Fighters ... tend to have high strength, thieves are usually
dextrous, priests wise, and mages intelligent. The characteristics
of Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and Intelligence reflect the
strengths of the archetypes well. The system would be stronger if
those were the only four characteristics used.
Here's Larry's opinion restated as an RPG design principle.
Class-Ability Equivalence: In a game system with classes and ability
scores, each class should mostly depend on one ability score, and
each ability score should primarily support one class.
I don't know whether the D20 Modern designers followed this principle,
but I've long considered it an important element of class system design.
Over the years, I've experimented with a bunch of RPG designs.[*] In
some of them, I've deliberately inverted Larry's principle, and I think
the opposite principle is also a viable approach to system design.
Class-Ability Orthogonality: In a game system with classes and
ability scores, all ability scores should support every class
equally.
For a couple of years now, I've been toying with a system that follows
this principle. The classes represent skill-oriented themes like
"fighter" and "diplomat," and the ability scores represent style-
oriented themes like "finesse" and "stamina." By combining the two, you
get a wide variety of skill & style combinations like "finesse fighter"
and "shock trooper."
You can even combine the two principles.
Subclass-Ability Equivalence: In a game system with character
classes, subclasses, and ability scores, the classes and abilities
should support each other as they do under the class-ability
equivalence principle. Also, each class should have several
subclasses, each one associated with one of the remaining abilities.
I was originally going to use this last principle for the FME game. It
had six broad classes (based on medieval social class), each with five
specific classes (based on actual skillsets). For example, the broad
"warrior" class relied on Strength for its primary ability, and the
specific "soldier" class relied on Constitution for its secondary
ability.
I eventually abandoned that idea, because I couldn't fill out the whole
class and subclass matrix, and I didn't want to support some abilities
better than others. Matching classes to abilities like this is much more
difficult when you're working from a fixed list of ability scores that
weren't specifically designed to support the principle.
Instead, I decided to use the basic class-ability equivalence rule,
slightly modified. I split each FSRD ability score into two major skill
areas, and based a class on each one. Now, every class depends primarily
on one ability score, and every ability score primarily supports two
classes. As you noted, this resembles the Modern class system, but it
wasn't actually inspired by the Modern system.
[*] Just FYI, none of them have ever reached playtesting. I think my
derived principles are sound, but they're untested, so take them
with a grain of salt.