3rd Edition Sucks!
TonyD
Fewer books and less rules is far from an improvement.
Though this is exactly what 2nd Edition was when it came out...a
streamlined, fewer rulebook edition of ADnD first edition.
> Personally I will be playing 2nd edition until the day I die, or until the
> people at TSR or Hasbro, or whoever the hell they are pull their heads out
of
> their asses--whichever comes first
Many, many 1st edition players never switched to 2nd edition, and I'm sure
many of them won't be making the switch to 3rd edition. What's the big
deal? Most DM's adjust the rules to fit their campaign anyway.
. My only hope is that not everyone will be
> converted, and there will always be people out there who love 2nd edition
as
> much as I do.
History will likely repeat itself, and there will be plenty of people
playing 2nd edition ten years from now.
>
> -Stephen
Barry Smith
> Personally I will be playing 2nd edition until the day I die, or until the
> people at TSR or Hasbro, or whoever the hell they are pull their heads out of
> their asses--whichever comes first. My only hope is that not everyone will be
> converted, and there will always be people out there who love 2nd edition as
> much as I do.
*raises hand*
I plan on checking out 3rd edition only long enough to rip it into
little manageable bites that I like that will get plugged into my 2nd
edition game. :)
The only thing 3rd edition is going to be for me is yet another
supplement.... ;)
Tyler Sherkin
etc so i can grab the monsters and classes and wahtever.
Fingers of Serpents Hold
> > preschoolers can enjoy the greatest roleplaying series of all time.
>
> Wow.... Irony - many of us first edition players said the same thing about
second
> edition 10 years ago...
>
I was personally annoyed by the ridgedness of the AD&D rules over the
original D&D rules. That was 20+ years ago, times change. Back when
there where three types of armor and eight types of shoes.
Tenzhi the Ti Hsien
about
> 3rd edition, the more I dislike it. I figured it was only a matter of time
> before the release of 3rd edition, but I expected to be an improvement to
2nd
> edition. It seems that instead, the entire game has been dumbed down so
that
> preschoolers can enjoy the greatest roleplaying series of all time. Not
that I
> have any prejudice against anklebiters, but I want a game to be as diverse
as
> possible, and have the ability to be complex and detailed should the
players
> choose it to be so. Fewer books and less rules is far from an improvement.
> Personally I will be playing 2nd edition until the day I die, or until the
> people at TSR or Hasbro, or whoever the hell they are pull their heads out
of
> their asses--whichever comes first. My only hope is that not everyone will
be
> converted, and there will always be people out there who love 2nd edition
as
> much as I do.
Fewer books and more wide-ranging rules from the looks of it so far. And
the ability for the DM and players to make what they want of the game more
freely, as well as more fluidity in character advancement with more options
available. Its amazing how you can improve a game by making it more
flexible. Not that I have anything against 2nd edition, but in its current
rigid form it seems more like a kids game - for keeds need rules to know how
to act, presumably adults should already know how to act. ;)
John W. Mangrum
>
> No THAC0, backwards AC, "Advanced" dropped altogether. . .the more I
> hear about 3rd edition, the more I dislike it.
And for such sensible, non-pathetically-petty reasons, too...
John W. Mangrum
Aristotle
>I was personally annoyed by the ridgedness of the AD&D rules over the
>original D&D rules. That was 20+ years ago, times change. Back when
>there where three types of armor and eight types of shoes.
*rofl*
Well, nothing stopped you from making your own. Further, I don't recall there
ever being a mere 3 types of armor. A quick look at first edition players
handbook or the DM's guide shows many more.
-Aristotle@Threshold
--
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Dragon*Con Pictures: http://www.threshold-rpg.com/dcon/
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Roy
Aristotle wrote in message <7sna3q$4...@enews1.newsguy.com>...
>In article <8aBH3.6837$2Z3....@newse3.tampabay.rr.com>, "Fingers of
Serpents Hold" <dwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>I was personally annoyed by the ridgedness of the AD&D rules over the
>>original D&D rules. That was 20+ years ago, times change. Back when
>>there where three types of armor and eight types of shoes.
>
>*rofl*
>
>Well, nothing stopped you from making your own. Further, I don't recall
there
>ever being a mere 3 types of armor. A quick look at first edition players
>handbook or the DM's guide shows many more.
>
It has been many moons since I played it (and I unfortunately don't have any
of it any more) but I believe original D&D only had three types of armor,
also.
I think leather, chainmail, and plate were all you got.
Roy
Stephen Jaros
Fingers of Serpents Hold wrote:
> > > It seems that instead, the entire game has been dumbed down so that
> > > preschoolers can enjoy the greatest roleplaying series of all time.
> >
> > Wow.... Irony - many of us first edition players said the same thing about
> second
> > edition 10 years ago...
> >
>
> I was personally annoyed by the ridgedness of the AD&D rules over the
> original D&D rules.
Indeed, many original DD players didn't like the formalism of ADD. Although i
thought it was justified in terms of helping create a gaming community, there
was a price paid in losing the free-form style (and gaming culture) of original
DD. The more things change...
*****************
Was the Order to Slay given because of the Sign of the Goat found on the
ancient Roman crypt beneath the cathedral, or because the Dark Man of
the Haute Vienne Coven spoke the Three Words?
Larry Mead
: No THAC0, backwards AC, "Advanced" dropped altogether. . .the more I hear about
: before the release of 3rd edition, but I expected to be an improvement to 2nd
: preschoolers can enjoy the greatest roleplaying series of all time. Not that I
: have any prejudice against anklebiters, but I want a game to be as diverse as
: possible, and have the ability to be complex and detailed should the players
: choose it to be so. Fewer books and less rules is far from an improvement.
Fewer books and rules are a *vast* improvement - but they have probably
killed interest for me with the combat system that is too complex and
too different.
: Personally I will be playing 2nd edition until the day I die, or until the
: people at TSR or Hasbro, or whoever the hell they are pull their heads out of
: their asses--whichever comes first. My only hope is that not everyone will be
: converted, and there will always be people out there who love 2nd edition as
: much as I do.
: -Stephen
Not to mention folks who like 1st edition!
DMgorgon
--
Lawrence R. Mead Ph.D. (Lawren...@usm.edu)
Eschew Obfuscation! Espouse Elucidation!
www-dept.usm.edu/~physics/mead.html
Bryan J. Maloney
ayy80...@aol.com (Stephen Webb) wrote:
> No THAC0, backwards AC, "Advanced" dropped altogether. . .the more I
hear about
> 3rd edition, the more I dislike it. I figured it was only a matter of time
> before the release of 3rd edition, but I expected to be an improvement to 2nd
> edition. It seems that instead, the entire game has been dumbed down so that
> preschoolers can enjoy the greatest roleplaying series of all time. Not that I
> have any prejudice against anklebiters, but I want a game to be as diverse as
> possible, and have the ability to be complex and detailed should the players
> choose it to be so. Fewer books and less rules is far from an improvement.
> Personally I will be playing 2nd edition until the day I die, or until the
> people at TSR or Hasbro, or whoever the hell they are pull their heads out of
> their asses--whichever comes first. My only hope is that not everyone will be
> converted, and there will always be people out there who love 2nd edition as
> much as I do.
>
> -Stephen
You could at least have made it an acrostic...
Chad Lubrecht
>No THAC0, backwards AC, "Advanced" dropped altogether. . .the more I hear about
>3rd edition, the more I dislike it.
You dislike 3rd edition for 3 changes that HAVE EXACTLY ZERO EFFECT on
game play. The change in THACO and AC are merely a rearranging of
numbers to result in exactly the same probalities as before, in what
many people think is a clearer and faster system. If you don't like
it, it is trivially easy to convert material and keep using the old
system.
> I figured it was only a matter of time
>before the release of 3rd edition, but I expected to be an improvement to 2nd
>edition. It seems that instead, the entire game has been dumbed down so that
>preschoolers can enjoy the greatest roleplaying series of all time.
I have yet to hear any changes that sound like the game is being
dumbed down. I'd appreciate if you could tell me a few.
Desert Rat
Stephen Webb <ayy80...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990926184601...@ng-fz1.aol.com...
> No THAC0, backwards AC, "Advanced" dropped altogether. . .the more I hear
about
> before the release of 3rd edition, but I expected to be an improvement to
2nd
> edition. It seems that instead, the entire game has been dumbed down so
that
that I
> have any prejudice against anklebiters, but I want a game to be as diverse
as
> possible, and have the ability to be complex and detailed should the
players
> choose it to be so. Fewer books and less rules is far from an improvement.
> Personally I will be playing 2nd edition until the day I die, or until the
> people at TSR or Hasbro, or whoever the hell they are pull their heads out
of
> their asses--whichever comes first. My only hope is that not everyone will
be
> converted, and there will always be people out there who love 2nd edition
as
> much as I do.
>
> -Stephen
Well Stephen, I have been gaming for over 14 years now, I own 1st Edition,
2nd Edition,
and Skills and powers.... and use parts of every single one. From the very
limited stuff that
is out, it appears that WOTC has been lurking on this NG and has picked up
most of the
common house rules (the opposite AC/thaco deal), and tried to handle some
common
gripes (the XP progression and the unbalance between races. I have talked to
a number
of people about thesystem and I hear more of them saying the same thing you
did, then I
discover throughout a conversation that they havent even researched
anything, just listened
to rumors... I suggest, to you and all others on this NG, patience.. 3rd
edition is coming out
regardless of your wishes and dont try to complain or argue about it until
you *know* that
it exists. When it comes down to it, in about a year I will be running a
game that includes
the 1st edition Bard class, my own version of the Palidon, some stuff from
2nd Edition, the
miniature combat rules from S&P (unless 3rds stuff is better) and a lot of
the majik system from
3rd edition.
Feel free to go hide in your basement and play your 'pure' 2nd edition game,
I and others like
me are going to enjoy playing dungeons and dragons..... not caring what
edition it is.
The Desert Rat
Tequila Wyrm
myself are working on a new set of combat and from the sounds of it,
these changes are going to be very similar. I also hope that this is
not a "dumbing down" but more of a streamlining. ( I guess that would
be more of a personal perspective issue ) What I find iresome is that
if we have combat in a game session it can (not always) take most of our
game time away for just minutes of fantasy time. It may be possible
that we have not optimized our perception of 2nd Ed. rules, but I find
it interesting that our changes sound very similar to what is proposed
for 3rd ed. combat. I like combat as much as the next random PC, it
would just be nicer, IMO, to be able to 'game' and have combat in the
same session. So, for now, I will be taking a wait and see approach,
especially since it will be 10 months before 3rd ed is released.
Tequila Wyrm.
mrn...@my-deja.com
ig...@capital.net wrote:
> Stephen Webb wrote:
> >
> > No THAC0, backwards AC, "Advanced" dropped altogether. . .the more I
> > hear about 3rd edition, the more I dislike it.
>
>
> John W. Mangrum
>
strictly by the rules?
Besides, we aren't talking a major system change (for example, Gamma
World 1st Ed, and Gamma World 3rd Ed), Just a few rules that, if you
don't like them, you can change them back.
No THAC0? Big deal, just put it back. Backwords AC? Big deal. They
dropped Advanced? Big deal; we've called it D&D since we started,
several years ago.
Mr Neko
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Christopher Adams
about
> 3rd edition, the more I dislike it.
Mrs Webb! Stephen needs his nappy changed again!
--
Christopher Adams
A man of no fortune, and with a name to come.
The stage but echoes back the public voice,
The drama's laws the drama's patrons give
For we that live to please, must please to live.
- Samuel Clemens
Alan D Kohler
(Aristotle) wrote:
>In article <8aBH3.6837$2Z3....@newse3.tampabay.rr.com>, "Fingers of Serpents Hold" <dwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>I was personally annoyed by the ridgedness of the AD&D rules over the
>>original D&D rules. That was 20+ years ago, times change. Back when
>>there where three types of armor and eight types of shoes.
>
>*rofl*
>
>Well, nothing stopped you from making your own.
Yeah really, I wasn't waiting for TSR to make any shoes for me! I made
my own netbook of Shoes!
Fharlangan, eat your heart out!
Just do it!
;-)
Alan D. Kohler(hawk...@NOSPAM.olg.com)
"I once shot a man in Nepal just to watch him reincarnate." -Wierd Al
Hawkwind's RPG Pages are back at last!
http://members.tripod.com/~hawk_wind/homepage.html
Grey Daegmorgan
On 26 Sep 1999 22:46:01 GMT, ayy80...@aol.com (Stephen Webb) wrote:
>No THAC0, backwards AC, "Advanced" dropped altogether. . .the more I hear about
CMuel59749
>No THAC0, backwards AC, "Advanced" dropped altogether. . .the more I hear
>about 3rd edition, the more I dislike it.
<snip>
How about waiting until we actually _have_ a product to critique before
declaring it unfit for duty?
Guardian (cmuel...@aol.comNoSpam or lone...@iname.comNoSpam)
Gothic Candles: http://www.gothic-candles.com
AD&D: http://members.aol.com/cmuel59749/index.html
Articles, tools, NPCs, Deities, Critters, Spells, Campaign Notes, and more!
Sean K Reynolds
>
> No THAC0, backwards AC,
I reccommend you try a game or two with the backwards AC and attack
bonuses instead of THACO, and then see if you think it's still a bad
idea.
>"Advanced" dropped altogether. . .the more I hear about
> 3rd edition, the more I dislike it.
How does the _name_ change affect your game?
> It seems that instead, the entire game has been dumbed down so that
> preschoolers can enjoy the greatest roleplaying series of all time.
I don't see how you can say this is being dumbed down to a preschool
level. In fact, you don't have the full rules doc - all you have is the
FAQ, which is written in simple coddling terms so that everyone can
understand it.
But then again, you are fully within your rights to form an opinion
based on practically no information. It's not very scientific of you,
though.
--
Sean K Reynolds - game designer, computer artist, web guy, bigmouth
Want a self-contained tropical campaign setting with savages,
ancient empires, slavers, xenophobes, and yuan-ti?
Try THE SCARLET BROTHERHOOD, an accessory written by yours truly;
follow the "My Published Game Products" link on my web page:
http://home.earthlink.net/~skreyn/
Peter Csizmadia
> My only hope is that not everyone will be converted, and there
> will always be people out there who love 2nd edition as
> much as I do.
Y'know what, boy-o? I don't even like the 2nd Edition. The 1st is the most
comprehensive... with tweaks here and there by individual DMs.
3rd Edition? Who needs it?
PC
Håvard Haagenrud
Stephen Webb <ayy80...@aol.com> skrev i
meldingsnyheter:19990926184601...@ng-fz1.aol.com...
> No THAC0, backwards AC, "Advanced" dropped altogether. . .the more I hear
about
> 3rd edition, the more I dislike it. I figured it was only a matter of time
> before the release of 3rd edition, but I expected to be an improvement to
2nd
that
> preschoolers can enjoy the greatest roleplaying series of all time. Not
that I
> have any prejudice against anklebiters, but I want a game to be as diverse
as
> possible, and have the ability to be complex and detailed should the
players
> choose it to be so. Fewer books and less rules is far from an improvement.
> Personally I will be playing 2nd edition until the day I die, or until the
> people at TSR or Hasbro, or whoever the hell they are pull their heads out
of
be
> converted, and there will always be people out there who love 2nd edition
as
> much as I do.
>
Bah!
Who cares?
D&D sucks anyway! Only geeks play it!
Why don't you rather join the Crazy-Cool-Gang and start playing Vampire?
Håvard Haagenrud
Eric Tolle
(troll snipped)
> Personally I will be playing 2nd edition until the day I die, or until the
Now _this_ is worth a reply. I have this image of an old retiree
sitting at the table in the park, putting out his AD&D set, waiting
to see if anyone will be interested in a pickup dungeon crawl...
--
Eric Tolle sch...@silcom.com
Information does not want to be free. Information wants to be
folded, spindled, mutilated, and used to make funky children's
party hats.
Wizard of VOBs
>
> Stephen Webb <ayy80...@aol.com> skrev i
> meldingsnyheter:19990926184601...@ng-fz1.aol.com...
> > No THAC0, backwards AC, "Advanced" dropped altogether. . .the more I hear
> about
> > 3rd edition, the more I dislike it. I figured it was only a matter of time
> > before the release of 3rd edition, but I expected to be an improvement to
> 2nd
> > edition. It seems that instead, the entire game has been dumbed down so
> that
> > preschoolers can enjoy the greatest roleplaying series of all time. Not
> that I
> > have any prejudice against anklebiters, but I want a game to be as diverse
> as
> > possible, and have the ability to be complex and detailed should the
> players
> > choose it to be so. Fewer books and less rules is far from an improvement.
> of
> > their asses--whichever comes first. My only hope is that not everyone will
> be
> > converted, and there will always be people out there who love 2nd edition
> as
> > much as I do.
> >
> > -Stephen
>
> Bah!
>
> Who cares?
>
> D&D sucks anyway! Only geeks play it!
>
> Why don't you rather join the Crazy-Cool-Gang and start playing Vampire?
>
> Håvard Haagenrud
At least there are still Trolls in 3e ;-)
--
"Never put of 'til tomorrow what you can delegate today"
To contact me remove "N-O~S'P&A`M " from my address
(darn... forgot to set an anti spam on my new browser and id.. sigh)
Buttery
rules, so he can min/max them. Less books and less rules means more is left
up to your imagination. It is a design for the mature audience. All those
tons of books and rules from 2nd Edition were for the juvenile's who lack
the worldly knowledge to figure things out on their own. 3rd edition will
give you a framework to create upon, not a horrifically long and winded list
of rules to play within.
And be honest, the very first time you ever saw AC start at 10 and go down,
you thought it was stupid. I remember thinking (back in '79) that no armor
should be 0 and armor class should go up from there. This system isn't
quite right, but close. Now you just subtract 10 and my system is finally a
reality. It only took them 20 years. I still play, but have never embraced
2nd Edition on account of it sucking really bad, with the exception of the
Non-weapon proficiency idea.
The worst thing in 2nd edition has to be the "kits". Were these things
created for people that were simply too stupid to select there own set of
non-weapon proficiencies and role-play a certain character type? I mean do
you really need the Thief kit subclass of smuggler? What a complete waste
of paper and ink those things are. 3rd Edition aims to rectify that junk,
by simply tossing it in the crapper and giving you a list of skills to
create your own unique character with.
Most people who are resisting this, are simply doing it because they are
stubborn, and resistant to change in any form. I don't like all the new 3rd
Edition rules that I've heard about, but I can say, that I disliked, very
much, the 2nd Edition, but am very pleased with the philosophical ideas used
in creating the 3rd Edition.
Stephen Webb wrote in message
<19990926184601...@ng-fz1.aol.com>...
Suzanne Doiron
Buttery <pe...@eastern.net> wrote in message
news:rv3990...@corp.supernews.com...
mark templeton
Aristotle (thre...@threshold-rpg.com) writes:
> In article <8aBH3.6837$2Z3....@newse3.tampabay.rr.com>, "Fingers of Serpents Hold" <dwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>I was personally annoyed by the ridgedness of the AD&D rules over the
>>original D&D rules. That was 20+ years ago, times change. Back when
>>there where three types of armor and eight types of shoes.
>
> *rofl*
>
> ever being a mere 3 types of armor. A quick look at first edition players
> handbook or the DM's guide shows many more.
>
he's referring to DND and first edition ADND. DND had leather, chain and
plate armour. expert and beyond rules had scale, padded, etc armor.
--
mark templeton
e-mail=mailto:temp...@ncf.ca
url=http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~aj217
playtester for dungeons and dragons third edition (release date aug 00)
Buttery
same mechanics: figure out what you're going to do, unleash your spell or
swing your weapon, roll to hit, record damage, repeat. The real slow down
is usually caused by the DM trying to keep track of which creature took
what, and which creature swings when and has how many attacks, etc... I
don't see how a change is going to speed this up. And being able to declare
what you are doing when it gets to your turn will slow things down even
more. Before the mage would say "I'm going to cast magic missile" then when
it was his turn he cast the spell. Now, the mage may plan to cast Magic
missile, but when his turn comes, maybe the situation will be different, and
he has to rethink what he wants to do. Now more time is spent trying to
figure out what to do.
Tequila Wyrm wrote in message <37EF8893...@NOSPAM.com>...
>Actually, I am hoping that this will help speed up combat. My GM and
>myself are working on a new set of combat and from the sounds of it,
>these changes are going to be very similar. I also hope that this is
>not a "dumbing down" but more of a streamlining. ( I guess that would
>be more of a personal perspective issue ) What I find iresome is that
>if we have combat in a game session it can (not always) take most of our
>game time away for just minutes of fantasy time. It may be possible
>that we have not optimized our perception of 2nd Ed. rules, but I find
>it interesting that our changes sound very similar to what is proposed
>for 3rd ed. combat. I like combat as much as the next random PC, it
>would just be nicer, IMO, to be able to 'game' and have combat in the
>same session. So, for now, I will be taking a wait and see approach,
>especially since it will be 10 months before 3rd ed is released.
>
>Tequila Wyrm.
>
>
>Stephen Webb wrote:
>>
Stephen Jaros
Buttery wrote:
> All those
> tons of books and rules from 2nd Edition were for the juvenile's who lack
> the worldly knowledge to figure things out on their own.
It was also for the purpose of "flooding the market" with products to sell more,
but it backfired.
Sean Curtin
Buttery wrote:
>
> I honestly don't see how combat is going to be speeded up.
If you already know the rules, it won't be. If you're new, the new
rules will definitely help, since they're more intuitive (high AC is
good, high saving throws ar egood, etc).
Sean Curtin