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Fly tactics?

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Peter

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Nov 30, 2006, 12:11:47 PM11/30/06
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My Travel domain cleric just got the Fly spell, and I'm pondering the
implications. I was under the impression that the rules (3.0 in this
case) eliminated a lot of interesting possibilities, but the DM tells
me that he will make reasonable accommodations to reflect common sense
- he wants to reward good thinking, I guess.

For example, if a bucket of rocks is dumped over an enemy party at
sufficient height to reach terminal velocity, I imagine they'd do quite
a bit of damage. I don't know how one would calculate how many rocks
would hit (if any), nor how much damage would be done, though. Has
anyone dealt with this issue before? I'm sure I'm not the first one to
think of this. :D

While I'm at it, here are some other Fly tactics and questions that I
dreamed up. Any comments would be welcome.

1. A reach weapon would be very useful against enemies without ranged
attacks (or enemies in melee with other party members, since it would
be difficult for them to switch to a ranged weapon).

2. How big would rocks need to be to cause damage? What would the
effect be of a bucket of sand dropped from a height? What other
interesting things might be fun to drop?

3. Would it be possible to empty a Bag of Holding full of rocks over an
enemy party?

4. Could prestidigitation be used to tint armor, weapons, or even skin
and hair the prevailing color of the sky? If so, what would the effect
be in game terms? I'd imagine it would be much harder to see or hit the
flying character. If prestidigitation isn't practical for this, I'd
imagine a sky-blue cloak and/or armor and weapons would have some
camouflaging effect.

5. A harpoon could be highly amusing. I'm envisioning hauling enemies
into the sky, then cutting them loose. There's no listing for a harpoon
in the PHB, though.

->Peter

--
Peter Maranci - pmar...@gmail.com
Pete's RuneQuest & Roleplaying! http://www.runequest.org/rq.htm
The Diary of An Invisible Man: http://bobquasit.livejournal.com/

Mark Blunden

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Nov 30, 2006, 12:56:12 PM11/30/06
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Peter wrote:
> My Travel domain cleric just got the Fly spell, and I'm pondering the
> implications. I was under the impression that the rules (3.0 in this
> case) eliminated a lot of interesting possibilities, but the DM tells
> me that he will make reasonable accommodations to reflect common sense
> - he wants to reward good thinking, I guess.
>
> For example, if a bucket of rocks is dumped over an enemy party at
> sufficient height to reach terminal velocity, I imagine they'd do
> quite a bit of damage. I don't know how one would calculate how many
> rocks would hit (if any), nor how much damage would be done, though.
> Has anyone dealt with this issue before? I'm sure I'm not the first
> one to think of this. :D

A bucket of rocks is an improvised thrown weapon with a range increment of
10 feet. Give yourself an extra, say, +5 to attack for being right above the
target. Generally speaking, by the time you're high enough to deal
significant impact damage via gravity, you're high enough that you'll
probably miss.

> 5. A harpoon could be highly amusing. I'm envisioning hauling enemies
> into the sky, then cutting them loose. There's no listing for a
> harpoon in the PHB, though.

It's in Stormwrack.

--
Mark Blunden.


Bill Wayne

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Nov 30, 2006, 5:03:32 PM11/30/06
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There's a damage chart for falling objects:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects. You're best
off dropping lots of one pound rocks over several large boulders: at
100 feet up, ten one pounders would do 10d6 total, about as much as a
single 200 pound boulder from the same height.

Actually, you are better off casting Summon Creature III. A 2,000 pound
bison + a 100 foot fall = 20d6 damage cap.

Bill

Tony Zbaraschuk

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Nov 30, 2006, 6:06:30 PM11/30/06
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In article <1164906707.1...@l39g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,

Peter <pmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>My Travel domain cleric just got the Fly spell, and I'm pondering the
>implications. I was under the impression that the rules (3.0 in this
>case) eliminated a lot of interesting possibilities, but the DM tells
>me that he will make reasonable accommodations to reflect common sense
>- he wants to reward good thinking, I guess.
>
>For example, if a bucket of rocks is dumped over an enemy party at
>sufficient height to reach terminal velocity, I imagine they'd do quite
>a bit of damage. I don't know how one would calculate how many rocks
>would hit (if any), nor how much damage would be done, though. Has
>anyone dealt with this issue before? I'm sure I'm not the first one to
>think of this. :D

There's a level 1 spell in _Spell Compendium_ that dumps a shower of
rocks in a 5' wide 20' high cylinder, doing 1d4 damage per two levels
and allows a Reflex save for half damage. Probably something like
that would work.

>While I'm at it, here are some other Fly tactics and questions that I
>dreamed up. Any comments would be welcome.
>
>1. A reach weapon would be very useful against enemies without ranged
>attacks (or enemies in melee with other party members, since it would
>be difficult for them to switch to a ranged weapon).

Yes. The fly spell allows perfect maneuverability, but a lot of
flying creatures with wings have to keep moving each turn -- check
out the maneuverability rules. Reach weapons also improve the
chance of attacks of opportunity.

>2. How big would rocks need to be to cause damage? What would the
>effect be of a bucket of sand dropped from a height? What other
>interesting things might be fun to drop?

Something that gets on fire. Slingstones can cause damage, so your
pebble doesn't have to be too big, but the DM will probably impose
range increments (you have to lead the target, the wind might blow
things, aside, that sort of thing).

>3. Would it be possible to empty a Bag of Holding full of rocks over an
>enemy party?

Sure, but I'd probably give them reflex saves to avoid the damage. The
bag of holding doesn't have a very big mouth. (Now, a portable hole
could contain a single very large stone block that you dumped on them...)

>4. Could prestidigitation be used to tint armor, weapons, or even skin
>and hair the prevailing color of the sky? If so, what would the effect
>be in game terms? I'd imagine it would be much harder to see or hit the
>flying character. If prestidigitation isn't practical for this, I'd
>imagine a sky-blue cloak and/or armor and weapons would have some
>camouflaging effect.

Prestidigitation is only a cantrip. I'd probably allow it to give you
a +2 bonus on Hide or Move Silently checks or something. Same with
properly-colored garb (though at any range where you can hit them
with rocks or weapons accurately, it probably won't be a perfect
camoflauge.) Some of the higher-level illusion spells might be better
for the job (disguise yourself as a bird, or as a wisp of mist, or
use a glamer to make yourself the color of the sky), but realistically
having a friend cast invisibility on you would be the best bet for
preventing visual detection.

>5. A harpoon could be highly amusing. I'm envisioning hauling enemies
>into the sky, then cutting them loose. There's no listing for a harpoon
>in the PHB, though.

_Stormwrack_. Also look at the rules for nets and whips, and at the
Use Rope skill. Keep in mind that a smart enemy with a slashing weapon
could probably cut your rope pretty quickly, before they got too far
into the sky. Might want to look at a wire-core rope, or a 30' chain,
or something like that (but watch your weight limits!)


Tony Z

--
If I can't see as far as others, it's because giants have
stood on my shoulders. --Jenni Subriar

Justisaur

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Nov 30, 2006, 6:54:19 PM11/30/06
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Bill Wayne wrote:
> Peter wrote:

> Actually, you are better off casting Summon Creature III. A 2,000 pound
> bison + a 100 foot fall = 20d6 damage cap.

Unfortunately you need a solid surface to summon upon. Rather sucks if
you are in an aireal or underwater battle.

- Justisaur

Loren Pechtel

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Nov 30, 2006, 9:44:02 PM11/30/06
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On 30 Nov 2006 09:11:47 -0800, "Peter" <pmar...@gmail.com> wrote:

>My Travel domain cleric just got the Fly spell, and I'm pondering the
>implications. I was under the impression that the rules (3.0 in this
>case) eliminated a lot of interesting possibilities, but the DM tells
>me that he will make reasonable accommodations to reflect common sense
>- he wants to reward good thinking, I guess.
>
>For example, if a bucket of rocks is dumped over an enemy party at
>sufficient height to reach terminal velocity, I imagine they'd do quite
>a bit of damage. I don't know how one would calculate how many rocks
>would hit (if any), nor how much damage would be done, though. Has
>anyone dealt with this issue before? I'm sure I'm not the first one to
>think of this. :D

They're thrown objects. Think of the range penalties. Also, each
rock isn't going to do all that much unless they are big (and you
won't get many in your bucket if they are large.) I would also impose
a considerable penalty for dumping them from the bucket--that's not
very accurate.

>1. A reach weapon would be very useful against enemies without ranged
>attacks (or enemies in melee with other party members, since it would
>be difficult for them to switch to a ranged weapon).

Agreed.

>2. How big would rocks need to be to cause damage? What would the
>effect be of a bucket of sand dropped from a height? What other
>interesting things might be fun to drop?

I think the rules don't do damage unless they are 10 pounds or
heavier.

>4. Could prestidigitation be used to tint armor, weapons, or even skin
>and hair the prevailing color of the sky? If so, what would the effect
>be in game terms? I'd imagine it would be much harder to see or hit the
>flying character. If prestidigitation isn't practical for this, I'd
>imagine a sky-blue cloak and/or armor and weapons would have some
>camouflaging effect.

I don't think you could do enough to make it very useful.

>5. A harpoon could be highly amusing. I'm envisioning hauling enemies
>into the sky, then cutting them loose. There's no listing for a harpoon
>in the PHB, though.

This is assuming it stays stuck in the target, also.

Loren Pechtel

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Nov 30, 2006, 9:44:02 PM11/30/06
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On 30 Nov 2006 14:03:32 -0800, "Bill Wayne" <HWa...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Actually, you are better off casting Summon Creature III. A 2,000 pound
>bison + a 100 foot fall = 20d6 damage cap.

Except the bison won't appear in the air.

Bill Wayne

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Nov 30, 2006, 9:54:25 PM11/30/06
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"This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider,
elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). *It appears where
you designate* and acts immediately, on your turn."

The air can support a bison. For AT LEAST two seconds.

Bill

Hadsil

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Nov 30, 2006, 10:01:11 PM11/30/06
to

Peter wrote:

> 2. How big would rocks need to be to cause damage? What would the
> effect be of a bucket of sand dropped from a height? What other
> interesting things might be fun to drop?
>

1d6 bludgeoning per 10ft fallen, max 10d6 would be a good amount. The
target would probably be allowed a reflex save. Negation or half
damage is a varying mileage issue, I'd think.

> 3. Would it be possible to empty a Bag of Holding full of rocks over an
> enemy party?
>

Only if by "normal" use of a bag of holding could one dump the stuff in
it. Usually someone reaches in to grab stuff. However, presuming one
could do it, I would say it's a full round action. The larger sized
bags could possibly allow for 2d6 bludgeoning per 10ft fallen, max 20d6
due to the number of rocks.

> 4. Could prestidigitation be used to tint armor, weapons, or even skin
> and hair the prevailing color of the sky? If so, what would the effect
> be in game terms? I'd imagine it would be much harder to see or hit the
> flying character. If prestidigitation isn't practical for this, I'd
> imagine a sky-blue cloak and/or armor and weapons would have some
> camouflaging effect.
>

Would you allow prestidigitation to allow a rogue or ranger to Hide to
use color for camouflage? It certainly cannot be as useful as
Invisibility or even Silent Image. Perhaps it could give a -2
circumstance penalty against someone to Spot you. Maybe a +1
circumstance bonus to hit a target on the ground, but the target does
not lose his DX bonus to AC based on this.
.
>
> ->Peter

My Warlock will one day have Fell Flight and Walk Unseen. I'd envision
him attacking from above, go invisible and move, attack, go invisible
and move, etc. Perhaps I'll learn other interesting steategies.

Gerald Katz

Hadsil

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Nov 30, 2006, 10:01:27 PM11/30/06
to

Peter wrote:

> 2. How big would rocks need to be to cause damage? What would the
> effect be of a bucket of sand dropped from a height? What other
> interesting things might be fun to drop?
>

1d6 bludgeoning per 10ft fallen, max 10d6 would be a good amount. The


target would probably be allowed a reflex save. Negation or half
damage is a varying mileage issue, I'd think.

> 3. Would it be possible to empty a Bag of Holding full of rocks over an
> enemy party?
>

Only if by "normal" use of a bag of holding could one dump the stuff in


it. Usually someone reaches in to grab stuff. However, presuming one
could do it, I would say it's a full round action. The larger sized
bags could possibly allow for 2d6 bludgeoning per 10ft fallen, max 20d6
due to the number of rocks.

> 4. Could prestidigitation be used to tint armor, weapons, or even skin


> and hair the prevailing color of the sky? If so, what would the effect
> be in game terms? I'd imagine it would be much harder to see or hit the
> flying character. If prestidigitation isn't practical for this, I'd
> imagine a sky-blue cloak and/or armor and weapons would have some
> camouflaging effect.
>

Would you allow prestidigitation to allow a rogue or ranger to Hide to


use color for camouflage? It certainly cannot be as useful as
Invisibility or even Silent Image. Perhaps it could give a -2
circumstance penalty against someone to Spot you. Maybe a +1
circumstance bonus to hit a target on the ground, but the target does
not lose his DX bonus to AC based on this.
.
>
> ->Peter

My Warlock will one day have Fell Flight and Walk Unseen. I'd envision
him attacking from above, go invisible and move, attack, go invisible

and move, etc. Perhaps I'll learn other interesting strategies.

Gerald Katz

Mark Blunden

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Dec 1, 2006, 4:54:06 AM12/1/06
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"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by
a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, *nor
can it appear floating in an empty space*. It must arrive in an open
location on a surface capable of supporting it."

--
Mark Blunden.


Werebat

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Dec 1, 2006, 6:26:24 AM12/1/06
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Mark Blunden wrote:

Well that's interesting... I can see the desire to nix the sort of
silliness being discussed, but I remember playing a Thaumaturge recently
and summoning flying creatures in mid-air several times. The druid in
the current game I play does this too.

- Ron ^*^

Bill Wayne

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Dec 1, 2006, 6:45:26 AM12/1/06
to

Well, crud. Could you use a bag of tricks to pull out heavy creatures,
or is that covered under the same rule?

> --
> Mark Blunden.

Bill

Mark Blunden

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Dec 1, 2006, 10:26:43 AM12/1/06
to

I certainly allow it when I DM - my rule of thumb is that a creature must
have a movement mode appropriate to its location. So you can summon a shark
in water, a dire bat in mid-air, or an ape against a climbable cliff face.

The RAW are a little more restrictive, though.

--
Mark Blunden.


Ken Andrews

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Dec 1, 2006, 10:18:43 AM12/1/06
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"Bill Wayne" <HWa...@gmail.com> wrote in message

Nope. The Bags use the Summon Nature's Ally spell in their creation, so
they'd fall under the same rules. The only exceptions I've seen are where
the DM allows flying creatures to, effectively, appear flying directly above
where the ball stopped, rather than standing on the ground and having to
take off.

However, if you do use the Bag, then as long as the ball hits the ground no
more than 20' away and you're not not more than 20' up I'd allow it to
activate, even though it might be more than 20' in a dead-straight line from
you to it.


Mark Blunden

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Dec 1, 2006, 10:29:25 AM12/1/06
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Well, it's based on conjuration magic, so it's likely the same rules apply.
In any case, I've always thought of the little fuzzy ball as having to be
thrown onto a surface in order to transform into an animal.

--
Mark Blunden.


Justisaur

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Dec 1, 2006, 1:03:56 PM12/1/06
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I like your ruling. The RAW already only allows aquatic creatures to
be summoned in water. You could always argue that air and water are
effectively a supporting surface for aquatic & flying creatures
respecively. It makes sense you should be able to summon them off of a
surface.

- Justisaur

Loren Pechtel

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Dec 1, 2006, 5:40:13 PM12/1/06
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On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 15:26:43 -0000, "Mark Blunden"
<markATmark...@address.invalid> wrote:

>I certainly allow it when I DM - my rule of thumb is that a creature must
>have a movement mode appropriate to its location. So you can summon a shark
>in water, a dire bat in mid-air, or an ape against a climbable cliff face.

Yeah, that only makes sense. For such a creature, it *IS* a surface
capable of supporting it.

Loren Pechtel

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Dec 1, 2006, 5:40:13 PM12/1/06
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On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 06:26:24 -0500, Werebat <ranpo...@cox.net>
wrote:

>> "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by
>> a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, *nor
>> can it appear floating in an empty space*. It must arrive in an open
>> location on a surface capable of supporting it."
>
>Well that's interesting... I can see the desire to nix the sort of
>silliness being discussed, but I remember playing a Thaumaturge recently
>and summoning flying creatures in mid-air several times. The druid in
>the current game I play does this too.

So?

Many people just missed that rule meant to stop such tactics.

Loren Pechtel

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Dec 1, 2006, 5:40:13 PM12/1/06
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On 1 Dec 2006 03:45:26 -0800, "Bill Wayne" <HWa...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Well, crud. Could you use a bag of tricks to pull out heavy creatures,
>or is that covered under the same rule?

The same rule applies.

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