Duels Between Mages
S. Wilson
> Am I right in my suspicions? Can anyone suggest modifications?
> Does anyone have a sytem they prefer using instead?
Yes. Freestyle.
Mage battles are really a battle of wits and prepardeness. The magic
system isn't suited to the dynamic style of
spell-counterspell-countercounterspell sort of thing. More of a
spell-[blocked by Globe of Invulnerability]-spell-[reflected by precast
Gaze Reflection]-*zap!* Even this presumes a straight, stand-up fight
where they give you two rounds of casting time and then yell, "Go for it!"
In other words, it leaves a lot up to chance, especially initiative.
Really, I like the open style duels conceptually. "Somewhere in this
valley is your opponent. You start in your own chosen location. Contest
goes from sunup to sunup. Whoever returns here with his opponent's body at
sunup wins. If both survive, it's a draw."
Worry about reconnaissance, initiative, non-detection spells, summoning
cannon fodder, illusions, ambushes, duration of any protective spells you
cast, etc. etc. Truly a battle of wits and strategy.
Hemlock
Jason Kuznicki
to announce that in just three short weeks I will be DMing
again! So, of course, I have a few questions:
Has anyone used the rules for magical dueling found in chapter
5 of the _DM Option: High-Level Campaigns_? I want to incor-
porate magical duels into my adventures, but the rules presented
here seem like they could really bog the game down a lot in
practice. Trial runs where I ran duels myself between some
NPC wizards seemed very complicated, and that was with just ME
making things difficult, not me and the players. My impression:
This thing could be a real game-killer if it doesn't get some
help.
Am I right in my suspicions? Can anyone suggest modifications?
Does anyone have a sytem they prefer using instead?
Jason Kuznicki Dept of History, The Ohio State University
Pride goeth before the fall. Goeth goeth before before.
mark edward hardwidge
> Has anyone used the rules for magical dueling found in chapter
> 5 of the _DM Option: High-Level Campaigns_?
The ones that are totally silly? With the spells marching
down a line towards the other mage? I have no idea what they were
thinking... I guess the problem is that if you have 'spell
memorization' like in AD&D, it's not quite 'right' to have mages
wielding 'raw magical energy against each other'. I think that's a
flaw in AD&D though.
No, I think mage and/or psi battles should be roleplayed
better than that. As a very first order idea (which could be improved
GREATLY), how's this:
Mage gets "magic strength points (aka HPs) = sum of spell levels"
(so level 1 = 1 2 = 2, 3 = 4 etc)
Basic mage does 1d(highest spell level damage)
Modify for odd mages, like "My mage is a fire mage, and only has access to
powers of extreme destruction" would probably get to do more damage. "Mage
of protective magic" would probably take less damage"
That's the basic mechanics, and I think you'll get a reasonably
'fair' battle out of the matter.
Now, to make a second order answer, put in things like:
a) more options. You also have (maybe the same number) of "spell
points" which you can use for spells. Damaging, protective, healing,
confusing, etc. (You could also force the spells to be decided upon
ahead of time, or let them decide as they want)
b) exciting descriptions.
Hmm...I bet I could write up something pretty interesting for
this at a later time. (if anyone thinks I've got a start of something
halfway decent, please let me know, and I'll see about spending more
time on it)
--
Mark E. Hardwidge
hard...@uiuc.edu
A'koss
Jason Kuznicki <kuzni...@osu.edu> wrote in message
news:7m9271$q3$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu...
> After nearly a year and a half without AD&D, I am very happy
> to announce that in just three short weeks I will be DMing
> again! So, of course, I have a few questions:
>
> porate magical duels into my adventures, but the rules presented
> here seem like they could really bog the game down a lot in
> practice. Trial runs where I ran duels myself between some
> NPC wizards seemed very complicated, and that was with just ME
> making things difficult, not me and the players. My impression:
> This thing could be a real game-killer if it doesn't get some
> help.
>
> Am I right in my suspicions?
Yes, weird and complicated.
> Can anyone suggest modifications?
How about ignoring it completely.
> Does anyone have a sytem they prefer using instead?
<shrug> I think the current rules for spell combat work fine.
A'koss!
Denakhan the Arch-Mage
Have the premiss that the mages 'engage' eachother in a special magical
mind dual kinda thing.
Then, play out a normal combat between them...but none of the spells
cast are actually cast, any hp lost arn't really lost, etc...think of it
like an illusion shared by both of the mages. The first one to die/be
rendered helpless looses.
Then, the one that wins 'wakes up' first. This is always the winner so
that it is always known.
^_^
Denakhan the Arch-Mage
Jason Kuznicki
>
>[Freestyle duels]
>
>In other words, it leaves a lot up to chance, especially initiative.
>Really, I like the open style duels conceptually. "Somewhere in this
>valley is your opponent. You start in your own chosen location. Contest
>goes from sunup to sunup. Whoever returns here with his opponent's body at
>sunup wins. If both survive, it's a draw."
>
>Worry about reconnaissance, initiative, non-detection spells, summoning
>cannon fodder, illusions, ambushes, duration of any protective spells you
>cast, etc. etc. Truly a battle of wits and strategy.
This is all great, except that I don't always want one of the com-
batants to die. The great advantages of the dueling system in
the DMO:HL book are that the penalties can vary so much and that
there is a definite sense of fairness to it, as opposed to the
constant threat of meddling henchmen, etc., in a "just duke it
out" fight to the death. (I think one poster entirely missed
the point when saying that this was the best way to handle a
duel... but I digress)
After reading some of the other posts on the thread, here is my
first try at a solution:
Dueling Disc
The dueling disc is made of solid porphyry and a bit larger
than a manhole cover. It is covered by glyphs representing
the schools of magic and the spheres of priestly influence.
The disc is very heavy to lift, but transportation is easy
with pack animals and the like. When activated by two
spellcasters who both freely desire to engage in a duel upon
certain prestated terms, the disc creates an extradimensional
space that precisely duplicates the surrounding area for a
radius of up to 1/2 mile. It then creates magical simulacra
of the two participants and places them at opposite sides of
the space. No other sentient beings are duplicated by the
spell.
For the duration of the duel, leaving is impossible save by
the conscious intention to surrender, which ends the duel in
your opponent's favor. In the real world, the two combatants
stand perfectly motionless at either side of the disc and
cannot be distracted. Forcibly transporting one of them away
results in that combatant's loss, so a referee is often
employed to prevent such trickery.
The simulacra have all the skills and abilities of their
counterparts, but magical items are only duplicated if both
parties agree. They may duel with one another for up to the
next 24 hours or until some pre-set condition is achieved,
typically running out of spells or hit points, although
virtually anything can serve.
The reward of a duel can take several forms.
*Death. The duelist who loses the duel must save versus
death; success indicates that he takes 8d6 hp of damage.
*Geas. The winner may place a geas on the loser at 18th
level of ability. This functions exactly as the spell
of that name.
*Ante. Before dueling, the combatants agree to each
place an item on the dueling disc. The winner keeps
both items, as the loser finds himself teleported to a
prohibitively (but not punitively) distant location.
It is thought that at least five of these discs were
created by the ancient Guildhouses before their
disastrous wars. The making of them has been lost to
our unenlightened age, however.
Jason Kuznicki Dept of History, the Ohio State University
Whenever a tree speaks clearly, especially if it is in the voice of
a young woman, the questioner should suspect that it is not the tree
talking but some spirit inhabiting the trunk. In such cases, any
guidance received should be accepted with reservations. -- "Talking
Trees," in _The Encyclopedia of Things that Never Were_
Larry Mead
: > Am I right in my suspicions? Can anyone suggest modifications?
: > Does anyone have a sytem they prefer using instead?
: Yes. Freestyle.
[snip]
: Worry about reconnaissance, initiative, non-detection spells, summoning
: cannon fodder, illusions, ambushes, duration of any protective spells you
: cast, etc. etc. Truly a battle of wits and strategy.
: Hemlock
Yes, I agree with Hemlock. I have had several PC vs PC and PC vs NPC duels
in just this way, some of which were both exciting and momentous.
DMgorgon
--
Lawrence R. Mead Ph.D. (Lawren...@usm.edu)
Eschew Obfuscation! Espouse Elucidation!
www-dept.usm.edu/~physics/mead.html
Dragonscroll
kuzni...@osu.edu (Jason Kuznicki) wrote:
> After reading some of the other posts on the thread, here is my
> first try at a solution:
> Dueling Disc
I like the concept behind the Dueling Disc, but it seems a little
awkward. How about having an "Astral Duel" spell, say 3rd level or so,
that brings the mages' consciousnesses to the Astral plane to have their
Astral Avatars duke it out in a similar style? In our game, the Astral
plane is more like the plane of magic described in Shadowrun and thus
would duplicate magical items, landscape, and so on, while still being
outside the physical realm; a setting like this would be ideal for a
mage duel.
In this case it would probably be the casting mage who sets the terms
(Death, First Blood, Geas, Ante, etc), though not necessarily.
Otherwise, all the details could be the same as described under the
Dueling Disc.
James
Dragonscroll
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MARK JOHNSON
Dragonscroll wrote in message <7mad9o$vjl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <7ma737$l1s$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
> kuzni...@osu.edu (Jason Kuznicki) wrote:
>> After reading some of the other posts on the thread, here is my
>> first try at a solution:
>> Dueling Disc
>> <snip>
>
>I like the concept behind the Dueling Disc, but it seems a little
>awkward. How about having an "Astral Duel" spell, say 3rd level or so,
>that brings the mages' consciousnesses to the Astral plane to have their
>Astral Avatars duke it out in a similar style? In our game, the Astral
>plane is more like the plane of magic described in Shadowrun and thus
>would duplicate magical items, landscape, and so on, while still being
>outside the physical realm; a setting like this would be ideal for a
>mage duel.
Why does it have to be in another realm, and why with simulacra? I happen
to like the idea of a duel being more than just a spell-slinging contest,
but I also think that the participants are intentionally putting themselves
at risk, and do so in a real situation. How many books have you read where
there was some sort of mage's duel or mage wars that drained the landscape,
or destroyed an area? I would think that the friendlier versions would have
much less dramatic effects, but I also think that the effects should be
"real".
>James
>Dragonscroll
-MJ
LARE
The biggest problem of AD&D mage duels is that there is no reactions
allowed, only actions. That is to say, there is not a single spell that
you can cast between your opponent casting a combat spell at you and the
resolution of that spell.
In various fantasy novels when mage A tosses a magic
missle/firebolt/lightning at mage B, mage B can quickly try to cast some
counterspell to deflect the missle or throw a waterspout out to intercept
the flames or quickly casts a counterspell to ground himself. Or whatever.
The point being is that the AD&D system really isn't set up to handle that
type of wizard duel and official attempts (such as the one found in
DMO:HLC) have fallen very short of the mark.
Some of the psi vs psi stuff has gotten closer, but still isn't there yet
either.
It would be great to have some sort of 'counterspell' system that was
workable within the context of normal combat. Perhaps treating the
'counterspell' much like PO:C&T treats attacks of opportunity, as a free
action received under a set list of circumstances. The secondary problem
is that you would have to start from scratch in writing these
'counterspells', because there are none at present. A third problem to
deal with is how spells are memorized in AD&D - you would definitely have
to use some sort of spell points system, such as those found in PO:S&M.
Finally, you would need an (probably lenghty) explanation on how all of
the 'can't miss' (magic missle) and 'instantaneous' (fireball) spells
interact with these new 'counterspells'.
My 2 cp,
LARE
--
Campaign Journals, House Rules, Characters, Figs, Places, Myths...
In short, lots of stuff.
Well organized & easy to navigate.
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Winston L. Sorfleet
Jason Kuznicki <kuzni...@osu.edu> wrote:
>Am I right in my suspicions? Can anyone suggest modifications?
>Does anyone have a sytem they prefer using instead?
If there's some sort of magical brotherhood that governs mage duels,
then:
Draw two circles on the ground, 50 feet apart. Place mage in each.
Put Sphere of Annhilation in centre. Let the mages try to push
the sphere into each other.
If the duel isn't to the death, the loser is the mage who steps
out of the circle.
If the duel is to the death, both participants are Hold Personed
in advance (they can still concentrate to move the Sphere).
I like it because it takes only level and INT into account (true magely
"power"), rather than spell repetoire. I.e. an 10th level illusionist
will probably defeat an 8th level evoker, which wouldn't be the case in
a straight up battle.
--
Winston L. Sorfleet romanus.ocunix.on.ca!wls
I speak for myself and stand by what I say.
Dragonscroll
"MARK JOHNSON" <mjh...@megsinet.net> wrote:
> Why does it have to be in another realm ... ? ... I also think
> that the effects should be "real".
The best way I have seen this simulated is using the Hero system. A
friend of mine created a magic system for Hero that actually made a lot
of sense. One mage would throw a fireball at a party, and the party's
mage would be the one left standing. :)
Blcknite99
>Does anyone have a sytem they prefer using instead?
While I have not used the system, the Complete Sha'ir's HB has rules for mage
duels. A quick glance at the rules indicates that memorized spells are divided
into types (attack, defense, drain, fortify) and result in spell points. The
duel then uses these modes until (spending spell points) until someone runs out
of spell points. If this sounds interesting/useful, I'll do a more careful
reading and summarize the rules more thoroughly.
Josh
Varsil
1. The Free Magic System.
-All spell slots are "free" magics (you can use them to cast anything in
your book). Play proceeds in turns, and initiative is diced for BEFORE
actions are dictated. Then the first person declares, and then the
second person declares (usually a response to an attack). Example:
Snerr and Frogoss (I'm tired, forgive the names) are dueling. In the
first round, Snerr wins the initial d10 roll, with a 4 (Frogoss rolled a
6). So Snerr goes first, and decides to launch a Fireball at Frogoss).
Frogoss sees the fireball, and decides to respond with a Globe of
Invulnerability (which not only halts the fireball, but lasts into later
rounds). Next round, initiative is diced for again, and so forth...
This has the advantage of being relatively epic, but it becomes a little
odd when, for example, a Legend Lore is used in a single round to
determine the wardings an enemy is using... :).
2. Ritual Dueling. This variant uses NO special game modifications, it
just tends to have very strict rules as to what is allowed. For
instance, a duel might be a battle between summoned creatures, a
miniature cantrip war, a contest to see who can lay the most
(non-offensive) enchantments on the other, or even a shape-changing
contests ala Sword in the Stone. This works well, imho, and is the one
I usually pick, especially because you can tone the 'nastiness' level
up/down depending on the intentions of both parties. Of course, the
real advantage to this method is the fact that it's all in-character
(duels usually only take place in highly formalized settings, if you
meet an enemy in the wilderness, you blow him up instead). Usually you
get a few onlookers to help out if anyone cheats (preferably
mages/clerics with detect magic and/or true seeing and other
divinations). Assuming the duel won't end up fatal for one side,
something should be wagered by each side (losing face can be enough, in
some cases).
S. Wilson wrote:
>
> > Am I right in my suspicions? Can anyone suggest modifications?
> > Does anyone have a sytem they prefer using instead?
>
> Yes. Freestyle.
>
> Mage battles are really a battle of wits and prepardeness. The magic
> system isn't suited to the dynamic style of
> spell-counterspell-countercounterspell sort of thing. More of a
> spell-[blocked by Globe of Invulnerability]-spell-[reflected by precast
> Gaze Reflection]-*zap!* Even this presumes a straight, stand-up fight
> where they give you two rounds of casting time and then yell, "Go for it!"
>
> In other words, it leaves a lot up to chance, especially initiative.
> Really, I like the open style duels conceptually. "Somewhere in this
> valley is your opponent. You start in your own chosen location. Contest
> goes from sunup to sunup. Whoever returns here with his opponent's body at
> sunup wins. If both survive, it's a draw."
>
Scott Metzger
> 1. The Free Magic System.
> -All spell slots are "free" magics (you can use them to cast anything
in
> your book). Play proceeds in turns, and initiative is diced for
BEFORE
> actions are dictated. Then the first person declares, and then the
> second person declares (usually a response to an attack). Example:
> Snerr and Frogoss (I'm tired, forgive the names) are dueling. In the
> first round, Snerr wins the initial d10 roll, with a 4 (Frogoss rolled
a
> 6). So Snerr goes first, and decides to launch a Fireball at
Frogoss).
> Frogoss sees the fireball, and decides to respond with a Globe of
> Invulnerability (which not only halts the fireball, but lasts into
later
> rounds). Next round, initiative is diced for again, and so forth...
> This has the advantage of being relatively epic, but it becomes a
little
> odd when, for example, a Legend Lore is used in a single round to
> determine the wardings an enemy is using... :).
This is pretty good. However, this penalizes the mage who wins
initiative. How about the loser of initiative declares what spell he is
going to cast. The winner then must make a spellcraft roll to see if he
can determine what spell is oponent is casting. The winner can then
choose his spell apropriatly. A mage who defers his attack until next
round could be given an initiative of 1.
Also, maybe Int should be used to adjust the initiative instead od Dex.
Of course, the spellcraft roll should have adjustments for spell level,
known spells, ability to clearly see opponent, etc. Also, if the
spellcraft roll fails, maybe the mage thinks its a different spell.
This still leaves the problem of a lack of counter spells. Perhaps,
each spell could have its own counter spell. The counter spell would be
known if the original spell is known. The effectiveness of a counter
spell could be determined by each mage making an Int check modified by
his level. I think the defender should be considered +1 to +3 level
higher than his actual level, defenders usually get benefits over
attackers. Partially stoping a spell could also happen, perhaps reduced
damage or area of effect.
> 2. Ritual Dueling. This variant uses NO special game modifications,
it
> just tends to have very strict rules as to what is allowed. For
> instance, a duel might be a battle between summoned creatures, a
> miniature cantrip war, a contest to see who can lay the most
> (non-offensive) enchantments on the other, or even a shape-changing
> contests ala Sword in the Stone. This works well, imho, and is the
one
> I usually pick, especially because you can tone the 'nastiness' level
> up/down depending on the intentions of both parties. Of course, the
> real advantage to this method is the fact that it's all in-character
> (duels usually only take place in highly formalized settings, if you
> meet an enemy in the wilderness, you blow him up instead). Usually
you
> get a few onlookers to help out if anyone cheats (preferably
> mages/clerics with detect magic and/or true seeing and other
> divinations). Assuming the duel won't end up fatal for one side,
> something should be wagered by each side (losing face can be enough,
in
> some cases).
This is good. Just add my above suggestions.
--
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Yo Yo Dyne Technologies, your source for RPG software
http://yoyodyne.virtualave.net/
MARK JOHNSON
LARE wrote in message ...
>
*snip*
>
>It would be great to have some sort of 'counterspell' system that was
>workable within the context of normal combat. Perhaps treating the
>'counterspell' much like PO:C&T treats attacks of opportunity, as a free
>action received under a set list of circumstances. The secondary problem
>is that you would have to start from scratch in writing these
>'counterspells', because there are none at present. A third problem to
>deal with is how spells are memorized in AD&D - you would definitely have
>to use some sort of spell points system, such as those found in PO:S&M.
>Finally, you would need an (probably lenghty) explanation on how all of
>the 'can't miss' (magic missle) and 'instantaneous' (fireball) spells
>interact with these new 'counterspells'.
I allow spell points to do just that IMC. *If* a mage has an opportunity to
take an action during an opponent's spellcasting attempt, he can use his SP
to try to interupt and stop the opponent's spell. The SP used are equal to
those spent by the casting mage. This takes an action, just as an attack
does, with a speed of 1. Since I use a spellcasting proficiency and every
spell cast requires a skill check, it is just a matter of rolling opposed
skill checks, the greater success wins. Perhaps an INT check modified by
the difference in level would work for more "standard" rules.
>My 2 cp,
>
>LARE
>
-MJ
MARK JOHNSON
Varsil
see your point...
> Also, maybe Int should be used to adjust the initiative instead od Dex.
> Of course, the spellcraft roll should have adjustments for spell level,
> known spells, ability to clearly see opponent, etc. Also, if the
> spellcraft roll fails, maybe the mage thinks its a different spell.
>
Nah... I just use the direct announcing method (but occasionally that
messes up PC's anyway... "DM: So Throgg casts Howl of Pandemonium, what
are you casting? PC: What the hell is that? DM: You have no idea.
What're you casting?" :).
> This still leaves the problem of a lack of counter spells. Perhaps,
> each spell could have its own counter spell. The counter spell would be
> known if the original spell is known. The effectiveness of a counter
> spell could be determined by each mage making an Int check modified by
> his level. I think the defender should be considered +1 to +3 level
> higher than his actual level, defenders usually get benefits over
> attackers. Partially stoping a spell could also happen, perhaps reduced
> damage or area of effect.
>
Dispel magic is the counterspell usually used... though some other
spells can be used. Gaze reflection is very effective against eyebite,
spell turning is generally nasty, and globes work pretty well too :).
Bucky Goldstien
>Personally, I had two systems I used:
>
>1. The Free Magic System.
>-All spell slots are "free" magics (you can use them to cast anything in
>your book). Play proceeds in turns, and initiative is diced for BEFORE
>actions are dictated. Then the first person declares, and then the
>second person declares (usually a response to an attack). Example:
>Snerr and Frogoss (I'm tired, forgive the names) are dueling. In the
>first round, Snerr wins the initial d10 roll, with a 4 (Frogoss rolled a
>6). So Snerr goes first, and decides to launch a Fireball at Frogoss).
>Frogoss sees the fireball, and decides to respond with a Globe of
>Invulnerability (which not only halts the fireball, but lasts into later
>rounds). Next round, initiative is diced for again, and so forth...
>This has the advantage of being relatively epic, but it becomes a little
>odd when, for example, a Legend Lore is used in a single round to
>determine the wardings an enemy is using... :).
/snip
This is similiar to the way Ive handled such things. I am in
agreement that the D&D spellsystem is not set up to handle the
spell-counterspell aspect of two opposing finger wagglers. Picture
this: our heroes encounter another party of evil adventurers in the
dungeon, battle ensues. The mages of course single each other out,
both recognizing that they pose the greatest threat to each other's
groups. The enemy mage gets initiative, and starts finger waggling.
Our esteemed Magus makes a Spellcraft check, recognizing the spell
that is being prepared, and reacts by preparing a suitable counter
spell. The result is determined largely by casting times. Our hero
casts the counter spell before the dread enemy, either an offensive
spell (breaking the enemy's concentration and ruining the spell) or a
defensive spell neutralizing the enemy spell, or he doesnt cast in
time and is likely fried. :)
This is the best way Ive found, within the bounds of the system, to
resolve this. Its fairly straightforward, simple, and only requires
skewering the combat system (rolling initiative before declarations).
The system is also short on aspects such as battles of willpower. D&D
can not for example recreate a battle of will such as that of Gandalf
at the stairway door duelling with the Balrog trying to force the door
open with magic. The only way I know of to resolve this is simple
comparison of caster levels to resolve conflicting spells, such as
Hold and Knock.