Realism and SR
BALU
>...those Autofire-Rules and the damage-codes of Grenades are totally unrealis-
>tic...
(Rest deleted for Space)
Hmmm... You want realism? Then buy yourself an Uzi and...
Nope... That was NOT funny...
Those rules were made to provide a SIMPLE mechanism for the simulation of
pitched firefights and action-packed adventures in the far/near future.
They are supposed to be FUN. Ok... let's look at those two examples...
1. Autofire (you probably mean the +1 on the Damage-Level for every 3 rounds)
Hmmm. In SRI the rules were, that you had to roll for every round seperately
Well... I agree, this is more realistic, but think about the time you spend
first rolling for hit, then the GM rolling for Resistance, you rolling
again, the GM again,... (One turn (3 secs) approximates about 20-30 minutes
in realtime... whew...) so IMHO (and in the oppinions of the creators of
SRII) the FUN is taken out of the game (at least for the players who sit
around waiting for their turn). I think the rules are sound and playable.
2. Damage-Code of Grenades
Hmmm... They are a bit low (if you look in real life, a grenade-explosion at
your feet is likely to blow your legs off and probably kill you outright),
but again it's the FUN-Factor coming into the equasion. What fun is it to
have a character with two blown off legs (and with the explosive-wielding
crazes that seem to populate the earth in 2050+ it is bloody likely to get
some things blown off...)? So the rules are again sound (for the Fun of it).
If you want REALISM, either change the rules until you think they fit you
(you'll probably end up without players or only with some hardheaders (like
me)), or buy a different game (this is NO, I repeat NO, downgrading of SR. It
is still my favourite in the Near-Future-Genre) like 'Millenium's End'(2nd Ed.)
THIS is realistic, but I estimate a death-rate (without hard'n heavy play) of
about 35%-45% (including survivors with lost arms/legs, broken necks, etc.).
IMHO I'd say SR is like those epic animations, where the heroes (and Master-
Villains) dish out damage like mad and go on after receiving blows, that would
kill an ox (e.g. Manga-Style : 'Fist of the North Star'), while games like
'Millenium's End' can be rated as those Cop/Agent/Action Series/Movies like
'Bad Boys' (Ninja-Cops in Germany) or even Miami Vice (Blech!).
So... Realism or not... SR is a good game, a fun game and I'm gonna keep
playing it...
Just my thoughts for today...
Frank Dehrendorf
('Mr Worf... fire at will...'
Bzzzzzzttt...
'Ah... Where is Riker??')
P.S.: For those who don't understand this article...
Don't worry... I don't understand it, too...
"Ignore me, I'm on drugs..."
Thomas Biskup (PG233)
dehre...@mzdmza.zdv.uni-mainz.de (BALU) writes:
|>
|> IMHO I'd say SR is like those epic animations, where the heroes (and
|> Master-
|> Villains) dish out damage like mad and go on after receiving blows, that
|> would
|> kill an ox (e.g. Manga-Style : 'Fist of the North Star'), while games
|> like
|> 'Millenium's End' can be rated as those Cop/Agent/Action Series/Movies
|> like
|> 'Bad Boys' (Ninja-Cops in Germany) or even Miami Vice (Blech!).
Did you ever try SRII? The second edition has a rather deadly feeling,
if you know what I mean ;), as least as long as one uses the default
values for the firearms. One nice hit with a pistol (say *Predator*) and
you are rather dead -- as long as the players are not walking tanks in heavy
armor (although a heavy machine gun with smartgun link should be able to
take care of that :). If your statement refers to SRI forget what I
wrote -- absolutely true ...
Have a nice day,
Thomas "Archangel" Biskup.
--
###############################################################################
Thomas Biskup email to: bis...@ls6.informatik.uni-dortmund.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
-- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6
###############################################################################
bryce jones
I do not know whether SR is realistic, but it sure is
deadly. Many times when I run it the following
happens.
About half the players go before the group of 5 or 6
fairly-cybered gangers/corporate security. One of the
players shoots with a Sniper Rifle/LMG/Assault Rifle
(I play SRII pretty high powered--the players always
pick A for resources) and takes down 1 or 2.
Another player takes down another one. Luckily (for
the GM) the mage has not decided to cast manakill
(Manaball with an S). There are two or three left.
They are smart and concentrate fire on the ork with
the LMG. Normally he would be dead in a flash
but he has a 11 body (augmented) and has lots of
bioware and combat pool. 1st burst from SMG:
The ork goes "Ouch. That hurt me." because he
used most of his combat pool and dodged out of teh way
After about the 3rd burst the ork has used up all
of his combat pool and most of his luck, he has
taken many light wounds and there are still 3 bursts
to go. Now he has no combat pool. A ganger uses
a 6-round burst. Ork takes D. Ork goes unconscious.
It is much more lethal than this when you are
shooting a decker/mage/human/elf.
<Trolls are a different story though :-)>
The problem in CP2020 is that none of the shots
do anything to the person getting shot unless
they are A. a head shot which kills the person
instantly or B. a critical success which pretty
much kills a person instantly.
It is good I started some conversation on changes
to CP2020. It needs it, IMHO.
Opinions?
-Jammer
Nigel Tzeng
> Did you ever try SRII? The second edition has a rather deadly feeling,
> if you know what I mean ;), as least as long as one uses the default
> values for the firearms. One nice hit with a pistol (say *Predator*) and
> you are rather dead -- as long as the players are not walking tanks in heavy
> armor (although a heavy machine gun with smartgun link should be able to
Hmmm...I may have missed a rule somewhere but in SRII I do not believe
that you can kill a healthy person in one shot with any weapon. The
best result in SRII (I believe...which as I said I could have missed a
rule) is a Deadly Wound which puts you at 10 boxes of damage and
fading fast but alive and savable. Clearly this is a rules artifact
but one I leave for my players anyway...gives them a reason to try to
evac buddies which IMHO is a Good Thing.
> Have a nice day,
> Thomas "Archangel" Biskup.
Nigel
--
----
Nigel Tzeng
TempQuote: "Just because there's a goaltender doesn't mean you can't score."
ObDis: Of course these opinions are mine...
NALDERN
>In article <2hdisi$9...@bambi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE>,
>dehre...@mzdmza.zdv.uni-mainz.de (BALU) writes:
>|>
>|> IMHO I'd say SR is like those epic animations, where the heroes (and
>|> Master-
>|> Villains) dish out damage like mad and go on after receiving blows, that
>|> would
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> kill an ox (e.g. Manga-Style : 'Fist of the North Star'), while games
>|> like
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> 'Millenium's End' can be rated as those Cop/Agent/Action Series/Movies
>|> like
>|> 'Bad Boys' (Ninja-Cops in Germany) or even Miami Vice (Blech!).
>
>Did you ever try SRII? The second edition has a rather deadly feeling,
>if you know what I mean ;), as least as long as one uses the default
>values for the firearms. One nice hit with a pistol (say *Predator*) and
>you are rather dead -- as long as the players are not walking tanks in heavy
>armor (although a heavy machine gun with smartgun link should be able to
One does not nead heavy armour to be a walking tank, one needs to be a troll.
My players troll with a lined coat can survive HE missile hits takh no damage.
The reason - karma pool, no longer do players have to worry about spending
that last point of karma that they were going to buy firearms 8 with in case
they needed it in the run, players now have an unlimted (virtually) supply of
rerolls, And since missiles now only have staging 2 it is a lot easier for
soemone with 13 body to walk right through them, even with only 3 karma in the
pool.. Does aynone else think this is a Tad powerful
BTW How do others deal with Karma poolsa refreshing btween adventures? Some of
my players want ot burn dcie when doing stuff like B/R skills btween major
runs - how many times can they do this...
BTWTW Even though this troll is built like a tank he is thankfully not a munch
kin, we only uses heavy pistols...
Speaking of Munchkins how do you deal with one when the muchkin is the GM?
My GM in another SR campaign inisisst on runnign a character. Whereas most GM
s will run an NPC whose proffession (sorry Archetype) is one that the party
lacks, my DM insists on running Muscle even when we have a Troll SS and a
heavy weapons expert... My wodnerful GM basis his campaigns around his
character.
Fore example: "Hmm, my character needs a power focus (he iss a PA) so this
adventure the chars can find a rating 4 power focus in a non-hidden place,
lets see this PF happnes to be in the shape of a tomohawk - which just happens
to be my characetrs fav weapon - so hell take it without letting the PC have
a chance to discuss selling it....." - I wouldnt odbject to this if he used
his character as a plot device but he has written no background and no
description and the char has no personality at all - merely chop up any enemies
that come near, and of course being the GM he rols a couple of dice behind
his screen and says "I kill a couple of them" - I persoanlly don't like GM's
that
GM as though they are characters......
Please don't give me flames saying "Well dont play with him then" becasue I
rather enjoy SR appart from that little bit...
^^^^^^^^^^^^John Buckingham (Buckin...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz)^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"It's 106 miles to Chicago. We've got a full tank of gas. Half
a pack of cigarettes. It's dark. And we're wearing sunglasses"
- Elwood Blues: The Blues Brothers
^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-
Simon Chen
BALU <dehre...@mzdmza.zdv.uni-mainz.de> wrote:
>
>1. Autofire (you probably mean the +1 on the Damage-Level for every 3 rounds)
> Hmmm. In SRI the rules were, that you had to roll for every round seperately
> Well... I agree, this is more realistic, but think about the time you spend
> first rolling for hit, then the GM rolling for Resistance, you rolling
> again, the GM again,... (One turn (3 secs) approximates about 20-30 minutes
> in realtime... whew...) so IMHO (and in the oppinions of the creators of
> SRII) the FUN is taken out of the game (at least for the players who sit
> around waiting for their turn). I think the rules are sound and playable.
Agreed, and it also makes the game more deadly. In the SRI, my combat mage
pretty much ignores all firearms except rifles and larger weapons. Now a SMG
can shread him if enough shots are fired...
>2. Damage-Code of Grenades
> Hmmm... They are a bit low (if you look in real life, a grenade-explosion at
> your feet is likely to blow your legs off and probably kill you outright),
> but again it's the FUN-Factor coming into the equasion. What fun is it to
> have a character with two blown off legs (and with the explosive-wielding
> crazes that seem to populate the earth in 2050+ it is bloody likely to get
> some things blown off...)? So the rules are again sound (for the Fun of it).
I have always wondered why SR does not employ hit-locations. With cyberlimbs
involved, hit-location could be relevent like in CP2020. Seems like in SR,
the only reason to get a cyberlimb, is just to cyber-up, while in CP2020, it
also could be to replace lost limbs (Good idea if your limbs + organic
replacements are constantly being blown off).
BALU
>Did you ever try SRII? The second edition has a rather deadly feeling,
>if you know what I mean ;), as least as long as one uses the default
>values for the firearms. One nice hit with a pistol (say *Predator*) and
>you are rather dead -- If your statement refers to SRI forget what I
>wrote -- absolutely true ...
I was talking about SRI AND SRII.
Yes. In SRII the damages are deadlier, but it is still so, that there is (in
effect) no way to simulate bleeding (the condition monitors don't go up in
time...) hits to arms, legs (and their workings on movement) or Stun due to
Physical damage (Pain)...
THAT is what I meant about 'epic cartoons'...
SRII IS a lot better than SRI and not only in this, but it still inherits some
'Cartoon-Style' traits.
>Have a nice day,
Yeah, you too...
> Thomas "Archangel" Biskup.
Ooouuuuiiiieee... Holy, holy...
Frank "Steel Angel" Dehrendorf.
P.S.: ... or "Chat Noir", "Sable", "Denizen (of the Deep)", "Maestro", ...
Thomas Biskup (PG233)
stx...@rs733.GSFC.NASA.Gov (Nigel Tzeng) writes:
|> In article <2hdl75$n...@fbi-news.informatik.uni-dortmund.de>
|> bis...@snorre.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Thomas Biskup (PG233))
|> writes:
|>
|> > Did you ever try SRII? The second edition has a rather deadly
|> feeling,
|> > if you know what I mean ;), as least as long as one uses the default
|> > values for the firearms. One nice hit with a pistol (say *Predator*)
|> and
|> > you are rather dead -- as long as the players are not walking tanks in
|> heavy
|> > armor (although a heavy machine gun with smartgun link should be able
|> to
|>
|> Hmmm...I may have missed a rule somewhere but in SRII I do not believe
|> that you can kill a healthy person in one shot with any weapon. The
|> best result in SRII (I believe...which as I said I could have missed a
|> rule) is a Deadly Wound which puts you at 10 boxes of damage and
|> fading fast but alive and savable. Clearly this is a rules artifact
|> but one I leave for my players anyway...gives them a reason to try to
|> evac buddies which IMHO is a Good Thing.
|>
Sorry, just forgot this rule (I started with SRI, know these rules good
enough for my purposes and now have some problems of adapting to some
of the second edition rules). I have to revise my comment to:
One nice hit with a pistol (say *Predator*) and
you are as good as dead (at least as long as you are in the middle
of a *real* fight!).
|> ----
|> Nigel Tzeng
|>
|> TempQuote: "Just because there's a goaltender doesn't mean you can't
|> score."
|> ObDis: Of course these opinions are mine...
--
###############################################################################
Thomas Biskup email to: bis...@snorre.informatik.uni-dortmund.de
Thomas Biskup (PG233)
|> troll.
|> My players troll with a lined coat can survive HE missile hits takh no
|> damage.
|> The reason - karma pool, no longer do players have to worry about
|> spending
|> that last point of karma that they were going to buy firearms 8 with in
|> case
|> they needed it in the run, players now have an unlimted (virtually)
|> supply of
|> rerolls, And since missiles now only have staging 2 it is a lot easier
|> for
|> soemone with 13 body to walk right through them, even with only 3 karma
|> in the
|> pool.. Does aynone else think this is a Tad powerful
|>
Now I wonder: how large is your karma pool (you start with one or two
points depending on the options you use and get one additional
point for every ten points of good karam you gain -- seems not be
all too much for me). Let's say, the troll is hit by a salve from
an automatic rifle (sorry, I don't know wether this is the correct
english word -- I own the german shadowrun version!) for 14T (6 bullets
or so -- currently I do not remember the damage codes), what does his 13 body
help? Seems still to be pretty tough for me (or do I miss something?).
Ciao,
Thomas "Archangel" Biskup.
--
###############################################################################
Thomas Biskup email to: bis...@snorre.informatik.uni-dortmund.de
Thomas Biskup (PG233)
dehre...@mzdmza.zdv.uni-mainz.de (BALU) writes:
|> I was talking about SRI AND SRII.
|> Yes. In SRII the damages are deadlier, but it is still so, that there is
|> (in
|> effect) no way to simulate bleeding (the condition monitors don't go up
|> in
|> time...) hits to arms, legs (and their workings on movement) or Stun due
|> to
|> Physical damage (Pain)...
|> THAT is what I meant about 'epic cartoons'...
|> SRII IS a lot better than SRI and not only in this, but it still
|> inherits some
|> 'Cartoon-Style' traits.
|>
From this point of view you are absolutely correct (IMHO). I just would like to
add that I think it's o.k. this way. Even more deadliness would hamper the fun
I have with this game -- eugh is enough (for my group!).
|> >Have a nice day,
|>
|> Yeah, you too...
|>
|> > Thomas "Archangel" Biskup.
|>
|> Ooouuuuiiiieee... Holy, holy...
|>
And seeking justice ...
|> Frank "Steel Angel" Dehrendorf.
|>
|> P.S.: ... or "Chat Noir", "Sable", "Denizen (of the Deep)", "Maestro", ...
|>
Have another nice day,
Thomas "Archangel" Biskup.
--
###############################################################################
Thomas Biskup email to: bis...@snorre.informatik.uni-dortmund.de
Schnood
>One does not nead heavy armour to be a walking tank, one needs to be a
>takh no damage. The reason - karma pool, no longer to players have to
>worry about using that last last point of karma that they were going to
>buy Firearms 8 with in case they need it on a run, players now have an
>unlimited (virtually) supply of rerolls, And since missles now only have
>a staging 2 it is a lot easier for a character with a body of 13 to just
Okay, assume that he gets hit with a regular anti-personell missle. The
person firing it gets just enough successes to hit him, not enough to
stage up the damage. The base damage for one of these things is 16D.
With a lined coat the character needs to roll 12s to get successes. Even
with 13 dice it'll be fairly difficult to get enough to stage it down a
lot. Also, the first reroll takes 1 point of karma, and each successive
reroll for the same damage uses one more (2 for the second, 3 for the
third, etc). He has a maximum amount of 39 dice to achieve 8 12s. The
average chance of getting a 12 is 1 in 36, so in an ideal world he should
only get one success for all three of his karma. And since he's used all
of his karma, the next missle in the launcher is going to have his name
written on it.
Steve Benz
[ karma pools are a ridiculous advantage...]
We first tried refreshing once per night, rather than once per scene (which
would'a been out of hand since we had two characters with 10 karma pools and
a party karma of 7 or somesuch nonsense.
Once the other characters got up into the 4's and 5's, it was clear that
things had to change.
First we just cut things back to the way they were in SRI, where you pay
out of good karma for rerolls. We tried that a while and quickly decided
a compromise was in order, so we decided to allow a SR2-style Karma
reroll at 50, 100, 200, 400, etc. total karma. For example, my 170ish
total-karma character gets two free rerolls a session, and ~30 karma points
from now he'll get 3. Additionally, if the fit hits the shan, I can burn
good karma and get more rerolls.
This works for us -- it's balanced and it's easy to keep track of.
- Steve
bryce jones
Somebody said that each staging past deadly added one
box. Is this a house rule, or official (I learned my
lesson, lemming--this is definitely not a flame).
What edition are you using? Perhaps it is an errata or
something.
-Jammer
Mark A Shieh
by Thomas Biskup @karo.info
> you are as good as dead (at least as long as you are in the middle
> of a *real* fight!).
One REALLY nice hit and you ARE dead. No one's mentioned the thing
where each success past deadly bumps up the damage one more for an
additional point of overflow. Fortunately, staging past D doesn't
happen often, even if you've got a nice samurai or just a rigger with
heavy ordnance <shudder>...
Thomas Biskup (PG233)
(NALDERN) writes:
|> T damage? Thats a new one.. Must be german for deadly.. anyway...
Oops, sorry -- sometine my mind seems to take strange ways, but
you are correct: T stands for 'toedlich' ('deadly' in german)
|> 13body+9 comabat pool = 21 dice
|> 14 damage - 6 for armour (jacket and helet) = 8 target, needing 8 successes
|>
|> Seems preety easy for me especially with 3 rerolls if you fail....
|>
Well, that's for one shot. Now assume that you are not in an one-on-one
firefight but in a rather large firefight (maybe some con guards or
something like that). It seems rather probable to me that more than
one bad guy will shoot at the troll and now you used up to 3 dice from
your karma pool, your combat pool is gone with the wind and yet not
refreshed. Would the troll still stand a chance against let's say
one or two more hits (I must admit, that our group is not that
experienced, so that karma pools are still rather small)?
One the other hand, I should say that a troll with 13 body (compared
to the average troll a real tough guy) and 9 combat pool (assuming
something of 6 intelligence, speed and willpower -- also rather
*great* scores, especially for a troll) and quite some experience
should be really difficult to kill -- imagining such an opponent
lets wimps such as Rambo really pale in comparison ;)
By the way, many trolls I have seen, have rather low willpower --
a mage character of mine really likes to throw spells such as mana bolt
against these huge, ugly and frightening oppenents -- this often
defeats these mountains quite easy ...
|>
|> > Thomas "Archangel" Biskup.
|>
|> Archangel? Could you save us from the coming apocalypse :-)
|>
The character named Archangel I preferrably play in our shadowrun
sessions is rather a messenger of the coming apocalypse -- at least
his behaviour sometimes hints at that (well, the price for a lot
of cyberware and really *low* essence -- he has no problems with
killing anyone if they stand between him and his goals, although
he mostly respects his co-runners and never has hurt one of them :)
Ciao,
Thomas.
Sea Wasp
> One REALLY nice hit and you ARE dead. No one's mentioned the thing
>where each success past deadly bumps up the damage one more for an
>additional point of overflow. Fortunately, staging past D doesn't
>happen often, even if you've got a nice samurai or just a rigger with
>heavy ordnance <shudder>...
Yeah, you need either really hideous skills or good luck to get
staged up over deadly, but it happens. I don't know what rules other groups
use, but we also have rules about the erosion of armor for Over Deadly;
you lose 1 point of armor for each stage over deadly. The armor's
available for THAT hit, but it's assumed to have been shredded/shattered/
whatever in that impact, and thus temporarily defunct until repaired or
replaced.
The bad guys don't know what UGLY is until they've seen one of
the PCs attack and get 15 4-over-Deadly.... (NPC: WHAT? I need *10* fifteens
before I even stage down to SERIOUS????) (What the PCs say when a baddie
gets a similar attack in on one of THEM isn't really printable...)
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Mark Tassin
Pkunk
st> From: stx...@rs733.GSFC.NASA.Gov (Nigel Tzeng)
st> Date: 17 Jan 1994 17:38:37 GMT
st> In article <2hdl75$n...@fbi-news.informatik.uni-dortmund.de>
st> bis...@snorre.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Thomas Biskup (PG233))
st> writes:
> Did you ever try SRII? The second edition has a rather deadly feeling,
> if you know what I mean ;), as least as long as one uses the default
> values for the firearms. One nice hit with a pistol (say *Predator*) and
> you are rather dead -- as long as the players are not walking tanks in heavy
> armor (although a heavy machine gun with smartgun link should be able to
st> Hmmm...I may have missed a rule somewhere but in SRII I do not believe
st> that you can kill a healthy person in one shot with any weapon. The
st> best result in SRII (I believe...which as I said I could have missed a
st> rule) is a Deadly Wound which puts you at 10 boxes of damage and
st> fading fast but alive and savable. Clearly this is a rules artifact
st> but one I leave for my players anyway...gives them a reason to try to
st> evac buddies which IMHO is a Good Thing.
Every additional 2 successed increases the wound level by 1, so if say I fire
My Ingram Smartgun and hit you with a burst (9S auto) and I get 4 additional
success (those wonderful smartguns, electronic Vision Enhancement lvl 3, and
Recoil compensation means I need a 2 to hit you at any range), you are now
at 9(D+1) or resist a 9 with 4 successes to remain concious if you weren't
wounded. (2 successes bring it down to 9D else you're at 9D with 1 pt of
overflow).
... Projectee - A person who is in front of the screen as the movie starts
NALDERN
>Now I wonder: how large is your karma pool (you start with one or two
>points depending on the options you use and get one additional
>point for every ten points of good karam you gain -- seems not be
>all too much for me). Let's say, the troll is hit by a salve from
>an automatic rifle (sorry, I don't know wether this is the correct
>english word -- I own the german shadowrun version!) for 14T (6 bullets
>or so -- currently I do not remember the damage codes), what does his 13 body
>help? Seems still to be pretty tough for me (or do I miss something?).
T damage? Thats a new one.. Must be german for deadly.. anyway...
13body+9 comabat pool = 21 dice
14 damage - 6 for armour (jacket and helet) = 8 target, needing 8 successes
Seems preety easy for me especially with 3 rerolls if you fail....
> Thomas "Archangel" Biskup.
Archangel? Could you save us from the coming apocalypse :-)
>
>--
>###############################################################################
>Thomas Biskup email to: bis...@snorre.informatik.uni-dortmund.de
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
> I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
> -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6
>###############################################################################
Schnood
In Shadowrun II it says that if damage exceeds Deadly in the physical
part, you start marking Overflow. If the Overflow exceeds the character's
Body attribute, then that character is dead. The way my group plays it is
that getting succeses above those necessary to get Deadly remove points from
the armor. So, with one shot it is not possible to irrevocably kill someone.
However, if someone starts taking multiple Moderate and Serious wounds, then
it's quite possible to exceed the Condition Monitor by enough to result in
death. This is on pg. 111 of the Shadowrun II Source Book.
GE/GCS d?(-d+) p+ c++(++++) e m* s+/-(---) !n h++ f+@ g+ w+(++) t+@
r+(++) !y
Simon Chen
Mark A Shieh <ms...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> One REALLY nice hit and you ARE dead. No one's mentioned the thing
>where each success past deadly bumps up the damage one more for an
>additional point of overflow. Fortunately, staging past D doesn't
>happen often, even if you've got a nice samurai or just a rigger with
>heavy ordnance <shudder>...
On the contrary, staging past D can occur often. All you need is
firearm 6, combat pool 6 (almost everyone have this), and smartgun
with link/goggles (not uncommon). This makes even streetline special
(say if you allow it to be smarted) dangerous. Any street punk can
be dangerous...
Matt
>
>I do not know whether SR is realistic, but it sure is
>deadly. Many times when I run it the following
>happens.
>
It's because of the cyberware factor, really. Think of the cost of cyberware for the average character. Then multiply that by a couple hundred. That's how much it would cost your average corp to outfit its security forces with enough cyberware to handle runners. Naturally, most don't. Life sucks in 2054.
Matt
>if you know what I mean ;), as least as long as one uses the default
>values for the firearms. One nice hit with a pistol (say *Predator*) and
>you are rather dead -- as long as the players are not walking tanks in heavy
>armor (although a heavy machine gun with smartgun link should be able to
>take care of that :). If your statement refers to SRI forget what I
>wrote -- absolutely true ...
>
>Have a nice day,
>
> Thomas "Archangel" Biskup.
>
Only a rather deadly feeling? Since the change from the combat test being a resisted roll to an opposed one, things, IMHO, got out of hand. It gets to the point where you can't roll more successes on your body roll than your opponent does on his firearms roll, 'cuz the firearms skill is so high.
Simon Chen
In SRI, stagings/successes pass D gets to reduce the target's armor by 1.
In SRII, it does nothing because D Damge fills in all the boxes already,
so additional boxes doesn't mean anything.
You sure someone posted that rule? (I might have missed it).
Steve Benz
>One the other hand, I should say that a troll with 13 body [and other
>nice stats and length experience] should be really difficult to kill...
Yeah, but if said troll is a PC, he's not.
And that's exactly our problem with the karma system. Suppose this
troll was an NPC, give him, whatheheck, a threat rating of 5. Now suppose
your average whiteboy runner becomes cross with friend troll, whips out
his predator and unloads. Assume said whiteboy has a pistol skill of 7,
an 8 combat pool and a smartgun link. He pulls out the pistol and unloads
a bullet into your troll's face -- headshots, I think, add +2 to the target
number, but let's assume we've got a target number of 5, just for general
amusement. Our man throws 14 dice at a target of 5 -- with 5 rerolls,
I think we can safely say that he's got 13 successes. The troll, then,
has 18 dice to roll at a target of 7 (I think predators are 7M)... Maybe,
if the GM is feeling generous he could give the troll the benefit of his
helmet, but that still leaves a target of 5, maybe 4 if dermal armor
applies, but assuming half of the troll's 18 dice are successes, the
whitebread PC has scored a net 4 successes, geeking the troll in one
shot with a pistol. (Whereas, we've already seen that a fairly hoss
NPC with an anti-tank weapon would be lucky do do a serious wound to
a PC variant of the same troll.)
The point is, that you just can't make opponents tough enough with the
karma pool system. The situation only gets worse in astral space, where
the table is tilted even more. A really outstanding strategy for PC
mages in astral space is to close to hand-to-hand range & melee the
NPC -- you can have an NPC that's an umpteenth-level initiate NPC with a
magic weapon get dead in a hurry at the hands of joe-average PC mage
due to the fact that the PC can, with karma rerolls, get about as many
successes as he's got dice.
Under the rules we play with (only one or two free karma rerolls a night,
everything else like SR1), things actually swing back the other way,
since we generally bump heads with threat ratings of 5, and the group
still has 9 or less in the pools, the NPC's are at a rather decided
advantage...
Lessen', o'course, we shoot first :-)
- Steve
BALU
>In article <1994Jan17.1...@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> bjj...@nyx10.cs.du.edu (bryce jones) writes:
>>
>>I do not know whether SR is realistic, but it sure is
>>deadly. Many times when I run it the following
>>happens.
>>
> It's because of the cyberware factor, really. Think of the cost of cyberware for the average character. Then multiply that by a couple hundred. That's how much it would cost your average corp to outfit its security forces with enough cyberware to handle runners. Naturally, most don't. Life sucks in 2054.
Check out 'Shadowtech' for alternate means of 'upgrading'...
(Like Kamikaze...)
Good for One-Shot-Goons, but deadly in the long run...
BTW... anybody of youse guys out there using Cranial Cyberdecks?
I think they are a bit too much trouble (getting it burned, off to the doc...).
AND... Is there anybody out there who has plausible rules for JUMPING
(either horizontal and vertical...)??
And then ... how about jumping while Shapechanged (like into a CAT...) ?
Just some questions...
Frank Dehrendorf
.sig still down...
Thomas Biskup (PG233)
|> high.
|>
Really true. When I noticed this after the first 'second edition test games'
I played to become accustomed to the rules changes it made me change
my style of designing opponents. I now rather prefer to give even some
of the tougher enemies a firearms skill of let's say just 4 (rather than 6
or even more as I did with the first edition to give the bad guys some chance
of harming the pc's). Up to now it works. They are capable of causing enough
damage to harass the pc's but they do not cause so much damage that one hit
from some street punk kills you right away (at least most of the time -- from
time to time a really tough opponent with smartgun links and high firearms
skill
let's me keep my group on their toes so that they fight only, if there is
no other way).
I also now use smartgun links rather sparingly (with npc's) to keep combat
in control (I do not like adventurers in which the first fight kills half of
the pc's).
Something I just wondered about: how do you guys out there handle the
damage in melee combat? While ranged combat has become rather deadly
the damage codes in melee combat are per default not that high. I still
think that someone with spurs and strength 5 should do more than 5M damage
as 5M against an armored opponent is next to nothing. Now I tried recently
1.5 times the normal power level for melee damage but up to now my group
evaded all melee fight's so that I can't say how good or bad this works?
Any comments?
Another nice day to all runners out there,
Thomas.
--
###############################################################################
Thomas Biskup email to: bis...@snorre.informatik.uni-dortmund.de
Carl D. Perkins
}The point is, that you just can't make opponents tough enough with the
}karma pool system. The situation only gets worse in astral space, where
}the table is tilted even more. A really outstanding strategy for PC
}mages in astral space is to close to hand-to-hand range & melee the
}NPC -- you can have an NPC that's an umpteenth-level initiate NPC with a
}magic weapon get dead in a hurry at the hands of joe-average PC mage
}due to the fact that the PC can, with karma rerolls, get about as many
}successes as he's got dice.
}
}Under the rules we play with (only one or two free karma rerolls a night,
}everything else like SR1), things actually swing back the other way,
}since we generally bump heads with threat ratings of 5, and the group
}still has 9 or less in the pools, the NPC's are at a rather decided
}advantage...
}Lessen', o'course, we shoot first :-)
} - Steve
There is a much easier correction: Don't use threat ratings.
It is only an optional rule anyway (which makes it even more optional
than a normal rule). Just have the GM give all the NPCs their own
karma pools - it is trivial to do.
--- Carl
Thomas Biskup (PG233)
Well that's a point for you. I like to give a karma pool to important npc's
instead of using the thread rating (partially because I overlooked the threat
rating mechanic when I first read the second edition rules). This makes
important npc's tough enough (for my games -- remember: my players are still
not *that* terribly experienced).
|>
|> The point is, that you just can't make opponents tough enough with the
|> karma pool system.
I think that I can live with the fact that most of the time (or at least
often) one opponent is not enough to kill a pc (at least if it is an
average opponent). Always remember that the bad guys often by far
outnumber the pc's and that a pc troll who is really tough is not
so much of a problem (as long as you keep weapons and armor somewhat
under control -- a *really* tough troll with cyberware, heavy body armor
and *big* weapons would be my personal nightmare:().
|> The situation only gets worse in astral space, where
|> the table is tilted even more. A really outstanding strategy for PC
|> mages in astral space is to close to hand-to-hand range & melee the
|> NPC -- you can have an NPC that's an umpteenth-level initiate NPC with a
|> magic weapon get dead in a hurry at the hands of joe-average PC mage
|> due to the fact that the PC can, with karma rerolls, get about as many
|> successes as he's got dice.
|>
Also here my method: There not too many npc mages in my games (not at every
corner at least) and thus I would give to the more important mages a karma
pool so that the things are in control again. But I must admit that we did
not have too many astral combat up to now (my group is more physically
oriented with one physical adept and one mage) so that I lack some experience
with these problems ...
|> Lessen', o'course, we shoot first :-)
Still seems to be the best guarantee for survival ... ;)
|>
|> - Steve
Ioannis Fikouras
Yo its standard SRII rules
--
Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.
GCS -d+@ -p+(---) c+++ l+ u+++ e@ m++(-) s/+ !n(-) h(*) f+ g! w+ t+ r++ y?
Mark Tassin
ms> From: Mark A Shieh <ms...@andrew.cmu.edu>
ms> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 1994 12:37:04 -0500
ms> Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.frp.cyber: 18-Jan-94 Re: Realism and
ms> SR by Thomas Biskup @karo.info
> One nice hit with a pistol (say *Predator*) and
> you are as good as dead (at least as long as you are in the middle
> of a *real* fight!).
ms> One REALLY nice hit and you ARE dead. No one's mentioned the
ms> thing where each success past deadly bumps up the damage one more for
ms> an additional point of overflow. Fortunately, staging past D doesn't
ms> happen often, even if you've got a nice samurai or just a rigger with
ms> heavy ordnance <shudder>...
You're wrong, for instance, with a starting Street Sam, I can easily bump
damage past D, For cyberwear I have a Smartgun link and Electronic Vision
Enhancement -3 (acts like a built in level 3 scope). Now for a weapon I have
an Ingram Smartgun with a Level 2 Recoil comp (1st 3 shots have no effect on
target modifiers from recoil), and a skill of 7 in SMG's... Now to hit I need
a base 4 (even extremem range becomes short with Elec Vis-3), and with the
Smartlink I take 2 off of that (meaning I need a base 2). That means that
5/6 dice rolled will give me a hit, and since I'm firing a burst (9S),
it should on the average hit (1 die to hit) go up to deadly (2 successes),
and then go to 1 above deadly (remaining 2 successes), for an average of
9D with 1 level of overflow. Now if I fire a second burst, I only need to
roll a 5, and I can fire 2 bursts in one action, so with you most likely
crippled if not dead from my first burst, I hit you for just another 9S from
the second burst, most likely leaving you with at least 6 boxes of overflow.
So what's the best Samurai? One with Wired-3 and Eyes, a Smartlink, and
Elec-Vis-3. He goes first and kills the best of the oposing team before they
go.
... a Zombie, but hey, 'When in Rome' " - Barny
Peter Kaminski
Mark Tassin <mark....@alpha.chigate.com> wrote:
>You're wrong, for instance, with a starting Street Sam, I can easily bump
>damage past D, For cyberwear I have a Smartgun link and Electronic Vision
>Enhancement -3 (acts like a built in level 3 scope). Now for a weapon I have
Check out SR2, p.240, Imaging Scopes. It is stated there that they are
incompatible with Smartgun Systems. Although this is only an extrapolation,
I would also say that the cyber version of the scope would also be
incompatible. Of course, most firefights in SR seem to occur at short range,
but it's still a rule to keep in mind.
>an Ingram Smartgun with a Level 2 Recoil comp (1st 3 shots have no effect on
>target modifiers from recoil), and a skill of 7 in SMG's... Now to hit I need
>a base 4 (even extremem range becomes short with Elec Vis-3), and with the
>Smartlink I take 2 off of that (meaning I need a base 2). That means that
>5/6 dice rolled will give me a hit, and since I'm firing a burst (9S),
>it should on the average hit (1 die to hit) go up to deadly (2 successes),
>and then go to 1 above deadly (remaining 2 successes), for an average of
>9D with 1 level of overflow. Now if I fire a second burst, I only need to
I still can't find the "overflow" rule in SR2. On the contrary, on p.111,
first column, paragraph 4 it states that "On the other end of the spectrum,
deadly damage is the highest level of damage possible." I understand that
you may get overflow damage from 2 or more separate sources, but I don't
think that extra successes on one shot will generate any. Please don't flame
me if it's a house rule. :-)
-- P.
--
|\ pkam...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca PGP key by mail, finger, or server.
|/ "You can lead a man to knowledge but you cannot make him think."
Mark A Shieh
by Mark Tas...@alpha.chigat
> ms> thing where each success past deadly bumps up the damage one more for
> ms> an additional point of overflow. Fortunately, staging past D doesn't
> ms> happen often, even if you've got a nice samurai or just a rigger with
> ms> heavy ordnance <shudder>...
>
>
> So what's the best Samurai? One with Wired-3 and Eyes, a Smartlink, and
> Elec-Vis-3. He goes first and kills the best of the oposing team before they
> go.
Like I said, you need a REALLY nice samurai to do it... Also, 2
points of recoil gives +1 to the first burst and +4 to the second...
Besides, it doesn't happen all that often that the people you're killing
are unarmored and don't resist the damage. Also, the only fight that
any of my characters had in the open in broad daylight was against 10
street punks in the barrens. They were wimps, our party pretty much had
them finished before initiative hit 10. So yes, your strategy does work
against unequipped people with little skill. But, if the target is
wearing some reasonable armor, say, an armor jacket, he only needs to
roll a few 4s to stay alive. You'd have to surprise him to keep his
combat pool/threat rating/whatever away from him...
Then again, our party is kinda strange. If that had happened, we'd
probably have called on our rigger, who would have then flown by on his
ultra-light and droppped a dozen bombs or so on you. Resist 120D.
<sigh> Or is that 'resist 10 D a dozen times.'? I can never
remember... Fortunately, the GM doesn't give us TOO many so we've only
been able to use them twice in the past 6 months. Funny as hell though.
Anyways, back to the point. I believe I was talking about killing
on ONE burst, not two. I thought there was a way to exceed Deadly
damage if you had enough successes, but I'm not sure where it is. Both
campaigns I've played in have used the rule, so I'm pretty sure it's
there. But it's been a few days so I can't be sure.
Simon Chen
Peter Kaminski <pkam...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>In article <19b_940...@chigate.fidonet.org>,
>Mark Tassin <mark....@alpha.chigate.com> wrote:
>>You're wrong, for instance, with a starting Street Sam, I can easily bump
>>damage past D, For cyberwear I have a Smartgun link and Electronic Vision
>>Enhancement -3 (acts like a built in level 3 scope). Now for a weapon I have
>
> Check out SR2, p.240, Imaging Scopes. It is stated there that they are
>incompatible with Smartgun Systems. Although this is only an extrapolation,
>I would also say that the cyber version of the scope would also be
>incompatible. Of course, most firefights in SR seem to occur at short range,
>but it's still a rule to keep in mind.
You have to realize that SmartSystem do not use the inputs from the scope
of your gun. But it does use inputs from your cybereyes.
> I still can't find the "overflow" rule in SR2. On the contrary, on p.111,
>first column, paragraph 4 it states that "On the other end of the spectrum,
>deadly damage is the highest level of damage possible." I understand that
>you may get overflow damage from 2 or more separate sources, but I don't
>think that extra successes on one shot will generate any. Please don't flame
>me if it's a house rule. :-)
I think he means extra successes over D when he says "overflow".
bryce jones
I am TIRED of some of you people. You CANNOT get the fax
straight. Someone said that additional staging past D
added extra boxes. I was polite and made sure they were
using official, 2nd edition rules, and they said they
were. You deserve MUCH FLAME for this as I am very PISSED
at you. Quote:
"On the other end of the spectrum, deadly damage is the
CAN'T you get ONE thing right for a change?
This is mostly directed at one person, and this message
is indeed a flame, but I WAS POLITE THE FIRST TIME!!!!!
ARRRRRRVGGGGGGGHHHH!!!!
One very pissed Jammer because someone posted before they thought.
NALDERN
added onto the power level of the attack?
Lester Ward
>In Shadowrun II it says that if damage exceeds Deadly in the physical
>part, you start marking Overflow.
This deals only with cumulative wounds. There is no written procedure for
staging above deadly. A deadly wound is the most any .single. hit from a
weapon can inflict. The rule you mention is a house rule. A good one, IMO,
but a house rule.
Wordman
Thomas Biskup (PG233)
|> What is all this "1 stage above deadly so you need 4 successes to get it to seriuos" stuff? I lways thought the rules said extra successes over deadly got
|> added onto the power level of the attack?
Never heard of that rule. But as I see this, the damage check in SRII is
a resisted check. I roll on my firearms + combat pool dice against some target
number, count my successes and then the target rolls on constitution
(and probably combat pool dice) against the power level of the weapon minus
armor adjustments. The successes of the target are subtracted from the
successes of the attacker and what remains will be used to calculate
damage. Example: A attacks B and rolls 5 successes on his firearms roll.
B now defends and rolls 7 successes *just* with constitution. Let's say
that a used an ares predator (damage code: 9M). Since B had two more successes
than A, B suffers light damage.
One special case: if you roll more successes when resisting damage with
the dice from the combat pool than the attacker had, he totally missed
in any case.
Don't know wether my english can be understood, but as far as I remember
this is it ... please no flames if I am wrong ...
BALU
>One special case: if you roll more successes when resisting damage with
>the dice from the combat pool than the attacker had, he totally missed
>in any case.
Just one question about that :
What do you use as Target# in this case ?
Do you use the Power Rating of the Gun??? (That's stupid, because then it's
easier to evade a light gun than a heavy pistol...)
We use the skill of the firer for Target# and it works just fine...
Frank Dehrendorf
Joshua James Harrison
I could see why it would work, but if you think about it, it SHOULD be easier
to evade and resist the lighter weapons, because they are lighter. The thing
is, the part for the opponents skill is already built in (when he makes his
attack rolls). If you opponent gets a lot of successes (and the more dice he
uses the more suc. he is likely to get), then it will be hard to avoid the shot.
If, OTOH, he doesn't get many successes (which he is likely to do if he doesn't
use many dice), then it will be easier to dodge/avoid the attack. If you think
about it, it makes sense. The more weapons skill the guy has, the more successes
he will generate, and the harder it will be to avoid the attack, because you'll
need to use more combat pool in order to counter it. You only have so much, and
I doubt that you use all seven (for example) of yor combat pool in a single def.
move.
Looking at it statistically, suppose a punk with a 2 firearms skill is shooting
at our friend the street sam, who allocates four dice from his combat pool to
defend against the attack (we'll ignore the sam's body because ONLY combat pool
dice count against the clean miss. It'll keep the stats to a minimum.
Now, suppose the punk doesn't allocate any combat pool to his shot, just using
his firearms. If he has a Target# of 4 (for example) then, on average, he will
get 1 success for his shot. Now, if he is using a Predator (9M), and the sam is
wearing an armor jacket (reducing the power to 4M), then his combat pool
allocation, in this case, will score an average of two successes. The chance
is very good that the punk will miss entirely (but if the punk uses his own
combat pool to augment the shot, he will generate more successes, and the sam
will need more successes to evade).
Now, if another punk, for example, has a firearms of 6, he will generate on
average of 3 suc. with a target# of 4. The sam will need at least 4 suc. with
his combat pool to evade (with his allocation of 4, that means all of them need
to be successes). Once again, this is if the punk doesn't use his own combat
pool.
This is a simple example, but it shows how it all comes together. Higher skill=
more successes. More power=harder to dodge (rounds are traveling a little faster,
more punch behind them, etc etc). If you think about it, it really does make
sense the way it is set up.
--
Josh Harrison | A Elbereth Gilthoniel | "The Hedgehog"
aka A.M. Hawke | o menel palan-diriel, | \ \ | / /
Internet: | le nallon si di'nguruthos! | \ \ | / /
har...@rpi.edu | A tiro nin, Fanuilos! | --- O O ---
------------------------------------------------------------| / C \
'Now come, you filth!' he cried. 'You've hurt my master, | / m\_/m \
you brute, and you'll pay for it. We're going on; but we'll |---------------
settle with you first. Come on, and taste it again!' - Sam, "The Two Towers"
Simon Chen
NALDERN <buckin...@ix.wcc.govt.nz> wrote:
>What is all this "1 stage above deadly so you need 4 successes to get it to seriuos" stuff? I lways thought the rules said extra successes over deadly got
>added onto the power level of the attack?
That sounds like someone carried over SRI rule to SRII, where overflow
subtracts armour values. In SRII that would translate equilivalently to
increasing power. This is not an official rule.
Simon Chen
BALU <dehre...@mzdmza.zdv.uni-mainz.de> wrote:
>In article <2ho8lc$4...@fbi-news.informatik.uni-dortmund.de>, bis...@urobe.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Thomas Biskup (PG233)) writes:
>>One special case: if you roll more successes when resisting damage with
>>the dice from the combat pool than the attacker had, he totally missed
>>in any case.
>
Power - armour.
>Do you use the Power Rating of the Gun??? (That's stupid, because then it's
>easier to evade a light gun than a heavy pistol...)
Big guns have bigger bullets.. heh.. I don't know.. 8)
>We use the skill of the firer for Target# and it works just fine...
No, then you'll have to use something like Physical Adepts missile deflection.
i.e. range penalties are reversed... 9 for short, 8 for med, 4 for extreme..
something like that... 8/
Matt
>What is all this "1 stage above deadly so you need 4 successes to get it to seriuos" stuff? I lways thought the rules said extra successes over deadly got
>added onto the power level of the attack?
Hmmm... I always played it that extra successes above deadly took away armor points, and then added to the power level of the attack, if there were any left over.
Dave Sherohman
>added onto the power level of the attack?
Sounds like you're stuck in SR1 - in SR2 this isn't possible because _no_
staging takes place until the resistance is rolled. For example:
You shoot me with a Predator and get 7 successes; my Body resistance scores 4
successes (no, I'm not a troll, I'm just wearing an Armor Jacket).
SR1: You stage up damage up 3 levels from 6M2 to 6D2 and my armor jacket
loses a point of Ballistic protection. The remaining 4 points of Ballistic
count as autosuccesses, for a total of 8 successes, and I take no damage.
Your system: You stage up from 9M to 9(D+1) which becomes 10D; I then stage
it down with my 4 successes, and take a Moderate.
SR2: My 4 successes are subtracted from your 7 successes, leaving 3 net
successes in your favor. Damage is then staged up from M to S and I take a
Serious.
Note that while stage up/stage down may initially seem identical to working
from net successes, there are cases (such as my example) where they will
produce different results.
Ioannis Fikouras
: troll was an NPC, give him, whatheheck, a threat rating of 5. Now suppose
: your average whiteboy runner becomes cross with friend troll, whips out
: his predator and unloads. Assume said whiteboy has a pistol skill of 7,
: an 8 combat pool and a smartgun link. He pulls out the pistol and unloads
: a bullet into your troll's face -- headshots, I think, add +2 to the target
: number, but let's assume we've got a target number of 5, just for general
: amusement. Our man throws 14 dice at a target of 5 -- with 5 rerolls,
No its +4 and u can only add as many dice as your skill, in this case
7 - which is quite A HECK of a skill if I might add, with 6 being
the skill of a reall expert.
: I think we can safely say that he's got 13 successes. The troll, then,
No I dont think so, with a target number of 6 on 14 dice
No way!!!!!!!
: has 18 dice to roll at a target of 7 (I think predators are 7M)... Maybe,
There is no rule that says that called shots can let u bypass armor
they just step up damage, in this case from 7M to 7S
The troll gets the full benefitt of his armor say one armor jacket
(5Bal,3Imp) so our troll has a target number of 7-5=2.
Now do u honestly believe that a troll with a body of about 10
plus his theat ratings (I think u mentioned 5) cant resist ANY
shot with a TN of 2 ???????????????????????????
: if the GM is feeling generous he could give the troll the benefit of his
: helmet, but that still leaves a target of 5, maybe 4 if dermal armor
: applies, but assuming half of the troll's 18 dice are successes, the
Wrong
: whitebread PC has scored a net 4 successes, geeking the troll in one
: shot with a pistol. (Whereas, we've already seen that a fairly hoss
: NPC with an anti-tank weapon would be lucky do do a serious wound to
: a PC variant of the same troll.)
: The point is, that you just can't make opponents tough enough with the
: karma pool system. The situation only gets worse in astral space, where
Wrong, the karma pool only insures that the runners just dont bite
the dust everytime they have an encounter.
Ioannis Fikouras
: : And that's exactly our problem with the karma system. Suppose this
: : troll was an NPC, give him, whatheheck, a threat rating of 5. Now suppose
: : your average whiteboy runner becomes cross with friend troll, whips out
: : his predator and unloads. Assume said whiteboy has a pistol skill of 7,
: : an 8 combat pool and a smartgun link. He pulls out the pistol and unloads
: : a bullet into your troll's face -- headshots, I think, add +2 to the target
: : number, but let's assume we've got a target number of 5, just for general
: : amusement. Our man throws 14 dice at a target of 5 -- with 5 rerolls,
: No its +4 and u can only add as many dice as your skill, in this case
: 7 - which is quite A HECK of a skill if I might add, with 6 being
: the skill of a reall expert.
: : I think we can safely say that he's got 13 successes. The troll, then,
: No I dont think so, with a target number of 6 on 14 dice
: No way!!!!!!!
BTW I assumed that this char has a smartlink ,if not the
TN jumps to an incredible 8 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mark Tassin
PK> From: pkam...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Peter Kaminski)
PK> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 17:41:59 GMT
PK> In article <19b_940...@chigate.fidonet.org>,
PK> Mark Tassin <mark....@alpha.chigate.com> wrote:
>You're wrong, for instance, with a starting Street Sam, I can easily bump
>damage past D, For cyberwear I have a Smartgun link and Electronic Vision
>Enhancement -3 (acts like a built in level 3 scope). Now for a weapon I have
PK> Check out SR2, p.240, Imaging Scopes. It is stated there that they
PK> are incompatible with Smartgun Systems. Although this is only an
PK> extrapolation, I would also say that the cyber version of the scope
PK> would also be incompatible. Of course, most firefights in SR seem to
PK> occur at short range, but it's still a rule to keep in mind.
It wouldn't seem possible when they're integrated into the same system (eyes)
If you tack in a Display link, the Smartgun system is displaying directly
onto the eye as is the magnification... it seems that realistically, that the
two would complement each other.
>an Ingram Smartgun with a Level 2 Recoil comp (1st 3 shots have no effect on
>target modifiers from recoil), and a skill of 7 in SMG's... Now to hit I need
>a base 4 (even extremem range becomes short with Elec Vis-3), and with the
>Smartlink I take 2 off of that (meaning I need a base 2). That means that
>5/6 dice rolled will give me a hit, and since I'm firing a burst (9S),
>it should on the average hit (1 die to hit) go up to deadly (2 successes),
>and then go to 1 above deadly (remaining 2 successes), for an average of
>9D with 1 level of overflow. Now if I fire a second burst, I only need to
PK> I still can't find the "overflow" rule in SR2. On the contrary, on
PK> p.111, first column, paragraph 4 it states that "On the other end of
PK> the spectrum, deadly damage is the highest level of damage possible."
PK> I understand that you may get overflow damage from 2 or more separate
PK> sources, but I don't think that extra successes on one shot will
PK> generate any. Please don't flame me if it's a house rule. :-)
Not quite a house rule, if you take additional damage above deadly from one
shot, you only get deadly, but we force you to have to try to stage it down
from the additional overflow... so say you got hit for Deadly +2, that means
to stay concious if you weren't wounded before, you need 6 successes, if you
only get 3, you only take a deadly wound... if you get 5 you still take
one, if you get 6 you finally bring it down to serious.
... Reality-ometer: [\.........] Hmmph! Thought so!
Mark Tassin
ms> From: Mark A Shieh <ms...@andrew.cmu.edu>
ms> Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.frp.cyber: 19-Jan-94 Re: Realism and
ms> SR by Mark Tas...@alpha.chigat
> ms> One REALLY nice hit and you ARE dead. No one's mentioned the
> ms> thing where each success past deadly bumps up the damage one more for
> ms> an additional point of overflow. Fortunately, staging past D doesn't
> ms> happen often, even if you've got a nice samurai or just a rigger with
> ms> heavy ordnance <shudder>...
>
ms> [character deleted]
>
> So what's the best Samurai? One with Wired-3 and Eyes, a Smartlink, and
> Elec-Vis-3. He goes first and kills the best of the oposing team before
they
> go.
ms> Like I said, you need a REALLY nice samurai to do it... Also, 2
ms> points of recoil gives +1 to the first burst and +4 to the second...
Umm... then you're saying that without any recoil comp if I fire a single
round I have a penalty? See, if that's the case then every gun must come
with recoil level 1, because I remember from somewhere that you get to fire
your first round without recoil penalties... So, what's the point of recoil
level 1?
ms> Besides, it doesn't happen all that often that the people you're
ms> killing are unarmored and don't resist the damage. Also, the only
ms> fight that any of my characters had in the open in broad daylight was
ms> against 10 street punks in the barrens. They were wimps, our party
ms> pretty much had them finished before initiative hit 10. So yes, your
ms> strategy does work against unequipped people with little skill. But,
ms> if the target is wearing some reasonable armor, say, an armor jacket,
ms> he only needs to roll a few 4s to stay alive. You'd have to surprise
ms> him to keep his combat pool/threat rating/whatever away from him...
<grin> I completely forgot about armor bringing down weapon power... No wonder
I've been slaughtering the PC's so badly... Ooops... :-) Hmm... now do I tell
them and wait to be strangled?
ms> Then again, our party is kinda strange. If that had happened,
ms> we'd probably have called on our rigger, who would have then flown by
ms> on his ultra-light and droppped a dozen bombs or so on you. Resist
ms> 120D. <sigh> Or is that 'resist 10 D a dozen times.'? I can never
ms> remember... Fortunately, the GM doesn't give us TOO many so we've only
ms> been able to use them twice in the past 6 months. Funny as hell
ms> though.
Ick... Remind me to come after you with an NPC rigger that trails around with
the party... They had one rigger, but he keeps getting killed, either by the
party or just bad luck... (He tried to drive an armored van through a security
wall, he would have made it but the Mini-guns struck the vehicle, and since he
had street life style, we determined all his stuff was in his van... 1000 rnds
APDS, some Autocannon rounds, etc... he did make a big hole in the wall though,
and then the party got into the complex (they didn't go with him), and ran into
yet another fun thing... Seven-7 Nerve Gas... They were lucky to crawl out of
there...), however this other rigger flies a heavilly modded Hughes-Stallion,
with rocket pods and a Heavy Minigun (Vanquisher) on a remote pop-up turret.
This PC has a spell locked onto the chopper (some illusion one) that makes it
always look Civilian to the aided/un-aided eye.
ms> Anyways, back to the point. I believe I was talking about killing
ms> on ONE burst, not two. I thought there was a way to exceed Deadly
ms> damage if you had enough successes, but I'm not sure where it is.
ms> Both campaigns I've played in have used the rule, so I'm pretty sure
ms> it's there. But it's been a few days so I can't be sure.
Well, what difference does it make? It never really matters, with 2 bursts
they're most likely dead, especially if the corps use APDS.
... Two most common elements in the universe: Hydrogen & Stupidity.
Carsten Husek
: Frank Dehrendorf
This is a house rule, but I think it works fine:
Roll Combat Pool & Body seperatly. (I'm only using this because if you get
enough succsesses in Combat Pool rolling body dice is not nessesary)
Always dodge Bullets with a target number of 6+ wound modifiers.
(Guns are damn hard to dodge)
If you dodge in Hand-to-Hand use the standard 4+wounds. (This is instead of
a counterattack; I always did melee dodging like this even in SRI)
I think dodging vs Powerlevel is a broken rule. "Oh, look this guy is really
strong, I can't dodge him!"
This makes dodging guns rather hard, unless you are in cover and the other
guy gets few successes.
--
Carsten Husek, thought collector and intellectual randomizer, fuzzy
satanic RPG-worshipper FNORD
**************************************************************************
"It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile,
be yourself, no matter what they say" Sting
**************************************************************************
"Der Nicht-Geist denkt Nicht-Gedanken ueber Nicht-Dinge" Buddha
"Leute, denkt dran: Wohin ihr auch geht, da seid ihr dann" Buckaroo Banzai
Thomas Biskup (PG233)
2hu...@rzdspc53.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Carsten Husek) writes:
|> BALU (dehre...@mzdmza.zdv.uni-mainz.de) wrote:
|> I think dodging vs Powerlevel is a broken rule. "Oh, look this guy is
|> really
|> strong, I can't dodge him!"
Maybe partially a broken rule (but I do not think that it's really a
problem as the shadowrun combat system rather does not belong to the
realistic combat systems -- only to the deadly). I would like to
add that I believe that dodging against power level is not
that wrong as some of your dice are from you BODY and thus it
really makes sense to say that tough guys are able to withstand
more punishment before passing out. Seems to be some type of built-in
hitpoint mechanism ... :)
Mike Weber
In a previous article, bjj...@nyx10.cs.du.edu (bryce jones) says:
>Somebody said that each staging past deadly added one
>box. Is this a house rule, or official (I learned my
>lesson, lemming--this is definitely not a flame).
>What edition are you using? Perhaps it is an errata or
>something.
No, that applies for damage you take that totals more than Deadly.
For example, if someone takes two Serious wounds (12 boxes), the
extra two boxes are counted in the Overflow box. At this point, the
character loses an additional box per round until first aid is
administered. If overflow damage equals or exceedes the character's
Body, then he is dead. (Permanantly).
--
"This is a test of the Emergency Broadcast System. This is only a test.
Had this been an actual emergency, you'd be writhing on the ground in
unspeakable agony, bleeding from every orifice, with your blackened skin
falling away in ragged strips."