> > However, I don't buy from first impressions anyway: I wait for reviews.
> > It's the first-impression buyers that the art is slanted to, and
> > apparently many of them disagree with me.
> To branch out from the original topic, where do you find reviews that are
> even halfway worth reading? Most of the magazines I see have reviews
> which are either fluff, or terribly slanted based on the
> editorial/publishing interests of the magazine.
That's interesting, because I would never buy a game based on a
review. I find that too many people have very different tastes
than I do. Look at all the people who play AD&D, after all. I
generally pick a game based on experience having played it, usually
at a gaming con, where I make a special effort to sample new
games. I did buy Shadowrun some years ago because the art attracted
me, and the Changeling book cover art always draws my eye in every
display, I may yet end up buying it.
Art is important to me in a game because it can help set the tone
of the game. Awkward, poorly drawn art is worse than no art at
all, because it can really damage the tone of the game for me.
Of course, I am a very visually oriented person. I draw almost
all my characters, sometimes in different clothing and stages
of development, and keep the drawings in front of me when I play
because I find it strengthens the bond between the character
and myself. It's like looking into a mirror, but the face on
the other side is the character's.
>That's interesting, because I would never buy a game based on a
>review. I find that too many people have very different tastes
>than I do. Look at all the people who play AD&D, after all.
The ideal review should give the reader an idea whether she will
like the game, whether the reviewer liked it or not: I agree that
this is not an ideal seen often in practice. Still, I can often
get something of use out of a review. I particularly like it if
the reviewer actually talks about his experiences in reading the
rules, generating a character, and playing the game. Then I can
judge if the things that pleased him would please me, and if the
things that annoyed him would annoy me.
_IF_ did a double review of _Aria_, one from someone who loved it,
one from someone who hated it: that was really quite helpful. By
the time you read both reviews you probably had a pretty good idea
which camp you'd fall in.
Conventions would be a good way to learn about new games, but I go
to only one a year and usually spend it wargaming, so that doesn't
work for me.
I will admit, with some embarrasment, that the Shadowrun art (particularly
the Great Feathered Serpent) did have some influence on my decision
to buy the game. I would never have bought any supplements, though,
if I hadn't liked the initial rules. I'm not all that visual.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu
Back to the discussion at hand, I think art does indeed matter. People tend
to underestimate the impact that layout and design can have on a product. If
it didn't matter, I doubt that gaming companies would bother with graphics and
layout staff. Most roleplaying games would be a chore to read (and reference!)
if not packaged in an attractive layout.
As for the quality of pictures, a great picture makes a great game superb. A
great picture will often sell a mediocre game, though word of mouth will kill a
game with great design quality but a half-assed system. Poor art, on the
other hand, fails to compliment the text and makes the book easily
put-downable. After all, a roleplaying game is little more than a
gazeteer/encyclopedia/mechanics textbook, which for the most part make for a
poor read. Poor art fails to convey mood. Can you imagine Vampire without its
trademark rose and ankh, or the shadowy depictions of clan members by
Bradstreet? AD&D's Dark Sun was sold on the art of Brom. And never forget
these three words: Magic: The Gathering.
People shouldn't ignore the art when reviewing a game. It reflects conscious
choices made by a gaming company when they put out a product. So it stands to
reason that if the art is crap, the text ain't gonna smell like roses either.
S.A.
Yes, but remember that layout and artwork is often -- VERY often -- in
the mind of the beholder. Look at "Wired" magazine. They've even put out
a Web Design guide now. I shudder in horror. That THING is the ugliest
piece of print media I have ever had the misfortune to see; the
newsletter I printed on a ditto machine when I was 13 looked better and
was a hell of a lot easier to read. Yet there are a lot of people who
think it's a great example...
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
wrote
>Does artwork matter in a game?
>but I've noticed -
>in the game lines that I've followed over the years - that as the art got
>fancier, my actual enjoyment of the supplements dropped.
Artwork was never really a major for me, but i have to say that the Artwork in
one particular product Immortals is amazing, it gives you such a fantastic feel
for the world tjhat is being brought across.
Without it it would be i think very difficult to bring the sureal idea over,
and therfore is a wonderul aid to both GM and player.
Therfore to me it depends on how it is used, and so far in that game it is used
well.
Mark
"The information regarding that subject is unavailable at this time"
>As for the quality of pictures, a great picture makes a great game superb.
A
>great picture will often sell a mediocre game, though word of mouth will
kill a
>game with great design quality but a half-assed system. Poor art, on the
>other hand, fails to compliment the text and makes the book easily
>put-downable. After all, a roleplaying game is little more than a
>gazeteer/encyclopedia/mechanics textbook, which for the most part make for
a
>poor read. Poor art fails to convey mood. Can you imagine Vampire without
its
>trademark rose and ankh, or the shadowy depictions of clan members by
>Bradstreet? AD&D's Dark Sun was sold on the art of Brom. And never
forget
>these three words: Magic: The Gathering.
>
>People shouldn't ignore the art when reviewing a game. It reflects
conscious
>choices made by a gaming company when they put out a product. So it stands
to
>reason that if the art is crap, the text ain't gonna smell like roses
either.
Actually it simply reflects a conscious choice on the part of the company to
spend large amounts of money on the packaging. The money paid for the art
often exceeds that paid for the writing, and this is why many games may have
a wonderful look, and mechanics holes (and background contradictions) that
you can drive a freight train thru.
Writers that are paid poorly tend to rush, so they can put out a wide range
of items. Writers paid by the word tend to pad their writing with
unnecessary verbage that many game editors leave in.
There are good games on the market with good art, there are bad games on the
market with good art, and there are good games on the market with bad or no
art.
If you use the packaging and not the content to make your decisions, you
generally deserve what you get for your purchase.
Remember that art, in a game, unless it is a map, handout or intrical part
of the mechanic (like a card) is just eye candy.
As for reviews, just remember that many reviewers have an ulterior motive.
There are very few publications or reviewers on the market that are NOT part
of a gaming company and are not writing for a house organ that has its own
drum to beat. If you're going to go by reviews, take a look at as many as
you can, never go by the review of a single individual to make a decision.
Joe
(Game Writer and Sometimes Game Reviewer)
>>People shouldn't ignore the art when reviewing a game. It reflects
>conscious
>>choices made by a gaming company when they put out a product. So it stands
>to
>>reason that if the art is crap, the text ain't gonna smell like roses
>either.
>
>Actually it simply reflects a conscious choice on the part of the company to
>spend large amounts of money on the packaging. The money paid for the art
>often exceeds that paid for the writing, and this is why many games may have
>a wonderful look, and mechanics holes (and background contradictions) that
>you can drive a freight train thru.
In my experience, companies who pay top rates to artists also
offer the best rates to us writer-types. Who are you talking
about, specifically?
Take care >>> Robin
Can you imagine Vampire without its trademark rose
and ankh, or the shadowy depictions of clan members
by Bradstreet?
Yes. It would be a rules set I would have bought and been anxious to play
years ago, rather than one I've only recently read through and haven't yet
purchased.
Warren Dew
Rolegaming rules are documentation: they're instructions to players and GMs
on what can be done with the tproduct, and how to do it. Good software
manuals (or, more probably these days, good third-party reference works)
show you sample output and discuss how to get those results. Gaming art is
something similar - it points you at what the designers had in mind for the
setting and style of play. Good art is therefore fully as relevant and
important as examples of play.
--
Bruce Baugh <*>
ari...@eyrie.org <*>
>Does artwork matter in a game? I see so many reviews comment on artwork
[snip]
For me, art is probably on of the most important factors determining
whether I purchase a book. I have, on the other hand, recently
admitted that I am a 'collector' of role-playing game material, and so
my point of view may be slanted.
That's not to say that the system isn't important. Most of the books
on my shelf are for GURPS...a system that started out with mediocre
art, and continues to explore the world of 'ok' artist. I've never
been a fan of the art in the GURPS books (or most SJG products for
that matter), but GURPS is my system of choice, and Car Wars is my
favorite table-top game.
So where does that put me? Owner of Warhammer Fantasy, Shadowrun,
Earthdawn, all the Storyteller games, and more. But I play GURPS. And
Fudge (no artwork whatsoever). To sum up, I enjoy the artwork, and it
helps set a mood for me, and fire my imagination. But I play with the
rules that I like.
.nathan
----
Nathan Heazlett
Computer Animator and All-Around Nice Guy!
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psych...@aol.com (Psychohist) writes:
Hmm. I guess its too bad. Either game comapnies overestimate the aesthetic
sense of their customers, or the intellectually elite and savvy gamers of the
world don't give a rat's behind about mood or production value. No offense to
Mr. Drew in particular, mind you. There are people in my circle of friends who
have the same opinions. I guess I'm just living a fantasy trying to convert
them to my way of thinking. Oh well, que sera, sera.
S.A.
P.S. But don't you think it would slighting the customer to put out a game in
single-spaced, two-column, black-and-white text cover to cover? Sure, it might
give him some extra cash to spend on Mountain Dew and Chili Flavor Fritos, but
come on! No one can honestly believe that [your favorite game here] would sell
any better, or just as well, without the help of layout artists, graphic
designers, illustrators, computer artists, etc. Que sera, sera, my mother's
butt. I have a valid point, and there have to more of you out there with
opinions on the subject!
>P.S. But don't you think it would slighting the customer to put out a game in
>single-spaced, two-column, black-and-white text cover to cover? Sure, it might
>give him some extra cash to spend on Mountain Dew and Chili Flavor Fritos, but
>come on! No one can honestly believe that [your favorite game here] would sell
>any better, or just as well, without the help of layout artists, graphic
>designers, illustrators, computer artists, etc. Que sera, sera, my mother's
>butt. I have a valid point, and there have to more of you out there with
>opinions on the subject!
Are you looking for our opinions, or just someone who agrees with you?
I don't spend a lot of time reading the core rules. I spend some
time flipping through them looking for things, so I am willing to pay for
readable typography, indexing, clean layout, good table design, etc.
I am also willing to pay for good paper and sturdy binding. But they
aren't where I go to look for creative inspiration, so inspiring art is
not particularly useful to me, and bad art is just annoying.
I would certainly buy a good rules set in flat black and white -- I bought
Delta Green, which is monochrome except for the cover, and consider it a
prize. Honestly, some of the frippery that *did* go into Delta Green
(in particular the layout detail on the rundown of government agencies, which
wasted a lot of space) annoyed me, but the book was good enough to make up
for it.
Some people are more visual and others are more verbal; they naturally
disagree on the importance of illustrations. I'm very verbal. I don't have
sketches of my characters either, and often know little about what they
look like, though a great deal about how they move and talk.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu
>Rolegaming rules are documentation: they're instructions to players and GMs
>on what can be done with the tproduct, and how to do it. Good software
>manuals (or, more probably these days, good third-party reference works)
>show you sample output and discuss how to get those results. Gaming art is
>something similar - it points you at what the designers had in mind for the
>setting and style of play. Good art is therefore fully as relevant and
>important as examples of play.
Provided it really *does* match what the designers had in mind. Case in
point Traveller 4th Edn. Some really good Chris Foss art - all of which is
recycled and has virtually nothing to do with the book !
--
"Hullo clouds, hullo sky, hullo pile of severed human heads," said Major
Basil Fotherington-Thomas.
(Eugene Byrne & Kim Newman "Teddy-Bear's Picnic")
Replace "nospam" with "morat" to reply
Paul K.
Robin D. Laws wrote in message <65aqtr$3tb$1...@news1.tor.acc.ca>...
>In my experience, companies who pay top rates to artists also
>offer the best rates to us writer-types. Who are you talking
>about, specifically?
Most companies pay artists better then they pay authors, and artists are
paid up front (at deliver of the art) while most writers must wait thru the
entire production process and until the book has been selling for several
months, and hope that it sells well to see anywhere near what an artist
makes.
I am not going to go into any details here in regards to who pays what and
how, nor who values art over the book content in their purchasing decisions.
I'm not writing here to start any feuds or battles.
Part of the situation occurs because there are a lot less artists then
writers in the field. And artists can sell outside the field while game
writers are usually fairly limited in regards to market available (even more
so with the current crunch in the publishing industry in general going on).
Joe
>Celestial7 posts, in part:
>
> Can you imagine Vampire without its trademark rose
> and ankh, or the shadowy depictions of clan members
> by Bradstreet?
>
>Yes. It would be a rules set I would have bought and been anxious to play
>years ago, rather than one I've only recently read through and haven't yet
>purchased.
Don't.
The background material is a flakey as a croissant, and the resolution
system is a disaster.
At most, rip off the basic idea, and write your own background, using the
GPRPG of your choice.
--
Brett Evill
To reply, remove 'spamblocker.' from <b.e...@spamblocker.tyndale.apana.org.au>
This exemplifies the heart of my original post: people often seem to
equate "good for the game company sales" with "good for the game players".
I'm swayed by artwork and layout. However, if I could actually sit down
and read through the games first, I'd make different decisions.
I have an imagination. I have lots of artwork sitting around from various
sources. I don't need art to set the mood for me. Layout I have a little
more sympathy for, but I don't like games that are too streamlined - I
like a little clutter and disorganization because it forces me to
"explore".
I'm poor enough that the price of a game does make a difference - it's
more than just snacks for me, it's whether I can afford 1 supplement or 2
this year. But I'm more concerned about variety and content. With all
due respect for the good people who have made wonderful art and efficient
layout, it's the words I want. I know all the math of dividing the budget
between art and writing to maximize sales. But at times I've forgotten
that, as a consumer, my best interests are not the same as the interests
of the people marketing the games.
Thomas.
>Provided it really *does* match what the designers had in mind. Case in
>point Traveller 4th Edn. Some really good Chris Foss art - all of which is
>recycled and has virtually nothing to do with the book !
Some of us thought the Foss art captured how we'd always thought of the
Trave universe - I started seeing his work about the time I discovered
Trave, and for me they go hand-in-hand. But I admit that this is a minority
taste and acknowledge the point.
I agree. I looked at all that wasted space those inch wide borders take
up and said, "Hmm, $25 dollars and about a quarter of it wasted space.
No wonder it's so expensive. If it had been $18, I might have bought
it. I have bought it since (used for $10) and it still seems like a lot
of wasted space.
Speaking personally, Hogshead's payment policies are nothing like the
scenario you describe. And since to the best of my knowledge you have
never made any enquiries about how much Hogshead pays its artists or its
writers, I have to wonder how wide a sample of the industry your
generalisation of "most companies" actually is.
--
James Wallis, Director of Hogshead Publishing Ltd (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Publishers of WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLEPLAY (wf...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Warhammer is a registered trademark of Games Workshop PLC, used with permission
Company motto: "Brevior vita est quam pro futumentibus negotium agendo"
James Wallis wrote in message ...
>Speaking personally, Hogshead's payment policies are nothing like the
>scenario you describe. And since to the best of my knowledge you have
>never made any enquiries about how much Hogshead pays its artists or its
>writers, I have to wonder how wide a sample of the industry your
>generalisation of "most companies" actually is.
Sorry James:
I've never said anything regarding Hogshead, as you are correct in that I do
not know your policies regarding such. I also have not dealt with any game
company or publisher in the past decade that was not inside of the
USA/Canada area and cannot in any way make any statements regarding the
situation outside of such.
I can only speak as to my own experience, and those folks that I have spoken
with inside of the USA. I know what I had to do to get art for my own
publications, and the sorts of rates that were quoted me when I considered
having someone else publish my material two years ago. Perhaps things in
some areas have changed, but as far as I know writers can expect pennies a
word at best, while artists are paid hundreds of dollars a page. (Art quotes
ranged, depending on whether the art was color or B&w, size and who the
artist was, from $100 a drawing to $500 a drawing).
Joe
> > To branch out from the original topic, where do you find reviews that are
> > even halfway worth reading? Most of the magazines I see have reviews
> > which are either fluff, or terribly slanted based on the
> > editorial/publishing interests of the magazine.
>
> That's interesting, because I would never buy a game based on a
> review. I find that too many people have very different tastes
> than I do.
The idea with a conscientious reviewing organ is that if you read the magazine
for a while you start to get a feel for the tastes of the reviewers. If the
reviewers are competent you can then adjust for their tastes and get a
reasonable idea of whether you like the game or not. It's an ideal, sure, but it
works in other fields: for example I can usually tell from an NME review whether
I'm likely to go for a particular piece of music, and the same is often true
with film reviews.
It's an ideal which is rarely achieved in role-playing, because the advertising
situation is so desperate, and it is so common for advertisers to take badly to
even mildly critical reviews.
A few years ago it seemed Interactive Fantasy might have helped a little (and
their 'double' review of Aria was of great interest to me in this respect), but
since Andrew can't be bothered either to release another issue or come clean and
admit he's folded, I guess that option is also lost to us.
Note that the 'right before my eyes' option of reviews on Usenet only provides a
partial solution. Part of the art of good reviewing is the judgment of the
editor.
--
Best wishes
Paul Mason (http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~panurge)
> psych...@aol.com (Psychohist) writes:
>
> >Celestial7 posts, in part:
> >
> > Can you imagine Vampire without its trademark rose
> > and ankh, or the shadowy depictions of clan members
> > by Bradstreet?
> >
> >Yes. It would be a rules set I would have bought and been anxious to play
> >years ago, rather than one I've only recently read through and haven't yet
> >purchased.
> >
> >
> Hmm. I guess its too bad. Either game comapnies overestimate the aesthetic
> sense of their customers, or the intellectually elite and savvy gamers of the
> world don't give a rat's behind about mood or production value. No offense to
> Mr. Drew in particular, mind you. There are people in my circle of
friends who
> have the same opinions. I guess I'm just living a fantasy trying to convert
> them to my way of thinking. Oh well, que sera, sera.
one of us misread Psychohist. i thought he meant that the particular art
and/or style of art in Vampire gave a false impression of the game, and
thus turned him off before he ever saw the content. now that he has found
out what the game is really about, he is interested in it.
that (whether it's what Psychohist had in mind or not) is actually a valid
concern: when does art detract, as opposed to being merely superfluous? i
understand the complaint about it being a "waste of space" that just ups
the price of the book, but i'm wondering more about cases like Kult 1st
ed, where the artwork was Clive Barker, but the game wasn't. or the one
piece in Ars Magica 4th that always catches my eye because it seems an
anachronism (i'd swear it's an illustration of a couple of SCAdians).
perhaps many people's opinions on the Kult magic supplements fall into
this category, too.
woodelf <*>
nbar...@students.wisc.edu
woo...@cs.wisc.edu
http://www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~woodelf
Wouldn't it be awful if life *were* fair, and we really deserved all the
terrible things that happened to us? --Marcus Cole
> Michele Ellington wrote:
>
> > > To branch out from the original topic, where do you find reviews that are
> > > even halfway worth reading? Most of the magazines I see have reviews
> > > which are either fluff, or terribly slanted based on the
> > > editorial/publishing interests of the magazine.
> >
> > That's interesting, because I would never buy a game based on a
> > review. I find that too many people have very different tastes
> > than I do.
>
> The idea with a conscientious reviewing organ is that if you read the magazine
> for a while you start to get a feel for the tastes of the reviewers. If the
> reviewers are competent you can then adjust for their tastes and get a
> reasonable idea of whether you like the game or not. It's an ideal,
sure, but it
> works in other fields: for example I can usually tell from an NME review
whether
> I'm likely to go for a particular piece of music, and the same is often true
> with film reviews.
IMHO, a good review tells you *why* the reviewer likes or dislikes
something. with that info, i don't really need any other background or
knowledge of the reviewer to determine if i'll like something. if the
reviewer says "the system is lousy," i have no idea if i'll like the
mechanics or not. if the reviewer says "the system has poor
correspondence to reality, especially in combat, but is otherwise fast and
simple," i can be fairly certain i'll at least tolerate the system, and i
might like it, since i couldn't give a rat's ass about combat rules,
generally speaking, but clean play is important to me. similarly, i
expect reviews to admit any particular biases (like the recent reviews in
Dragon where Rick Swan starts out by saying he really just doesn't
understand the appeal of Anime or Kung Fu as genres). comparisons to
other games are particularly useful in this regard (if she says she likes
the game as well as X, or becuase it is a lot like X, and i can't stand
X...).
I did not realize that similarity was required for the exercise of
compassion. --Delenn
>one of us misread Psychohist. i thought he meant that the particular art
>and/or style of art in Vampire gave a false impression of the game, and
>thus turned him off before he ever saw the content. now that he has found
>out what the game is really about, he is interested in it.
>
>that (whether it's what Psychohist had in mind or not) is actually a valid
>concern: when does art detract, as opposed to being merely superfluous? i
>understand the complaint about it being a "waste of space" that just ups
>the price of the book, but i'm wondering more about cases like Kult 1st
>ed, where the artwork was Clive Barker, but the game wasn't. or the one
>piece in Ars Magica 4th that always catches my eye because it seems an
>anachronism (i'd swear it's an illustration of a couple of SCAdians).
>perhaps many people's opinions on the Kult magic supplements fall into
>this category, too.
I missed out on getting DragonQuest 2nd edition, the best fantasy RPG of
the eighties (and still a contender) because I saw the cover in the shop.
The musclebound moron with the severed dragon's head summed up everything
I hate about second-rate fantasy, and so I didn't even flip the pages. By
the time I discovered that the game was very good, and highly suitable to
the less hack-and-slaughter fantasy that I prefer it was too late: the
game was sold out and out of print.
> that (whether it's what Psychohist had in mind or not) is actually a valid
> concern: when does art detract, as opposed to being merely superfluous?
When the art is bad. I know that seems simplistic (and "bad" is such a
subjective term) but is is the truth. I for one never would have picked
up basic D&D on my own simply because of the atrocious Errol Otus cover
art on the BD&D Red Box.
On the other hand, the Tony DiTerlizzi artwork in the AD&D Planescape
setting is enough to encourage me to purchase it.
On yet another hand (how many do I have?!?), the artwork in the
Cyberpunk 2020 system is "inconsistent" at best (talk about the good,
the bad and the ugly!), but the system itself is fantastic and that is
enough for me (though i would PREFER good artwork, I CAN live without it).
The long and the short of it is that artwork does make a difference, but
it should not be the only deciding factor.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbro...@chat.carleton.ca
Carleton University
"Dogs are not like cats, who amusingly tolerate humans only until
someone comes up with a tin-opener that can be operated with a paw."
- Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>woodelf (nbar...@students.wisc.edu) wrote:
>> that (whether it's what Psychohist had in mind or not) is actually a valid
>> concern: when does art detract, as opposed to being merely superfluous?
> When the art is bad. I know that seems simplistic (and "bad" is such a
> subjective term) but is is the truth. I for one never would have picked
> up basic D&D on my own simply because of the atrocious Errol Otus cover
> art on the BD&D Red Box.
> On the other hand, the Tony DiTerlizzi artwork in the AD&D Planescape
> setting is enough to encourage me to purchase it.
I originally bought Planescape for the art. -- the fact that it's an
interesting setting was a plus. The use of a single, good artist on
all Planescape products lends those products a continuity and greatly
enhances the mood when you're reading it.
Conversely, uneven art -- like the over-recycled pieces in most other
TSR products -- leads to inconsistency of style. At times it reaches
truly offensive proportions, such as in the Spellfire Dragonlance set
(with its beardless Tanis and dark elf Maquesta) and the Fifth Age
Fate Deck (which runs the full gamut from the excellent Raistlin card
to the Saturday-morning-cartoon Gilthas).
It's the unevenness that's really annoying; the art in Ravenloft
didn't impress me, but it wasn't bad either, and at least it was
consistent enough to develop a mood. And, fortunately, the SAGA
system itself was intriguing enough to make up for the deficiency in
the presentation, although I've yet to have an opportunity to try it.
--
R. Serena Wakefield
rai...@pretensions.gate.net (drop pretensions to e-mail)
Serena's Sanctuary: http://www.gate.net/~raistw
YESSss (pumps arm.) Thank you Brett, for having the courage to stand up
to those pretentious goths and art wanks. They more than Cp2020 have
pushed style over substance. And as much respect as I have for Tim
Bradstreet as an artist, is does not transfer to the rest of that
"product". Though I tend not to agree with some of what you say, You are
dead on on this ione.
Thank you.
Scott
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Yeah. Lord knows THAT kind of "courage"[3] is rare enough on the 'net
these days.
--
Tom Scudder aka tom...@umich.edu <*> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~tomscud
UMGASS[1] presents: PRINCESS IDA *THIS* *WEEK* *ONLY*
Dec. 4-6, 8:00 PM, Dec. 6-7 2:00 PM. Lydia[2] Mendelssohn Theatre
Call (313) 761-7855 for ticket info, or see http://www.umich.edu/~umgass
[1] The University of Michigan Gilbert and Sullivan Society
[2] Lydia, Lydia, have you met Lydia, Lydia the tatooed lady?
[3] Note "ironic" use of "quotation marks"[3]