SimCity 3000 design question
Rick Marazzani
Here on the Sc3k team, and we are wrangling with the issue of using real
businesses and buildings in SimCity 3000. Basically, many of us on the
development team think it would be cool to have real franchises and
businesses represented in the game. i.e. instead of generic places, the
Sims could eat at McD's, or shop at the GAP.
We have permission from several businesses to use their logos and
architecture, and we will not charge them for the privilege. These are not
PAID ads, but a way to make Sim cities more realistic. During focus
groups, a few parents complained that these product placements were
inappropriate for a game. Of course, we would have a toggle to filter out
the "real" stores.
What do you think? Where do gamers stand on the issue of product placement
in games? SimCity3000 is due out this year, and will be a killer 3D game
that takes the
original to unbelievable heights.
Rick Marazzani
Asst. Producer
SC3k - Maxis
sc...@maxis.com
Brent P. Newhall
Sounds neat to me. What's wrong with having businesses there? You're
not trying to be commercial, and as long as you have a good
cross-section of businesses (i.e., there's no concern you're trying to
push one or another particular business), I think it sounds great!
Brent P. Newhall
"Education never ceases."
Kvan
On 22 Jul 1997, Rick Marazzani wrote:
> What do you think? Where do gamers stand on the issue of product placement
> in games?
Considering how much product placement we're bombed with anyway, I don't
see how a game could make much difference. It is of course a question of
principles, but I must admit I can't see much of a problem - especially
since you seem to be talking about franchises which are as widespread as
e.g. McD. My major concern would be for you as design team, who could
easily find yourself pulling out your hair over some of the conditions and
changes certain corporations might want to press for. This, of course,
holds the risk of leading to an inferior game - depending on how much say
you have as designers.
In conclusion, my greatest concern in this respect is that corporations in
the future could reduce the quality of games. Corporations already have a
lot of say in movies, and I personally would hate to see that happen to
games.
Regards,
Kvan.
-------Casper Kvan Clausen------ | 'Ah, Warmark, everything that passes
---------<kv...@diku.dk>--------- | unattempted is impossible.'
'kvan' on pbm...@eiss.erols.com |
http://www.diku.dk/students/kvan | - Lord Mhoram, Son of Variol.
Ricardo J. Méndez
Rick Marazzani <sc...@maxis.com> wrote in article
<01bc96c7$9118a120$c909...@rmarazza.maxis.com>...
> Here on the Sc3k team, and we are wrangling with the issue of using real
> businesses and buildings in SimCity 3000. Basically, many of us on the
> development team think it would be cool to have real franchises and
> businesses represented in the game. i.e. instead of generic places, the
> Sims could eat at McD's, or shop at the GAP.
[...]
Well, if you ask me, I feel that it would be better if, instead of
including GAP, McDonalds, etc., you went ahead and tried to do some
parodies. Remember McDowell's in Coming To America. That would add more
value to the game that simply making unpaid publicity to existing chains,
and it would be fun to wait to see what parody will show up next. For
example, watch them reading Wiped, or going to buy some Microbesoft
programs.
My two cents,
Ricardo J. Méndez
------------------------------
Unsolicited commercial e-mail is NOT welcome.
The e-mail address needs to be modified, but if you're
NOT a spambot most likely you already know how.
Jake M. Billings
>Well, if you ask me, I feel that it would be better if, instead of
>including GAP, McDonalds, etc., you went ahead and tried to do some
>parodies.
i second that notion...though i think it would be nice to
have a way to obliterate mcdonaldss without getting in
trouble....
Ted Tschopp
Rick Marazzani wrote in article
<01bc96c7$9118a120$c909...@rmarazza.maxis.com>...
>Here on the Sc3k team, and we are wrangling with the issue of using real
>businesses and buildings in SimCity 3000. Basically, many of us on the
>development team think it would be cool to have real franchises and
>businesses represented in the game. i.e. instead of generic places, the
>Sims could eat at McD's, or shop at the GAP.
> We have permission from several businesses to use their logos and
>architecture, and we will not charge them for the privilege. These are not
>PAID ads, but a way to make Sim cities more realistic. During focus
>groups, a few parents complained that these product placements were
>inappropriate for a game. Of course, we would have a toggle to filter out
>the "real" stores.
> What do you think? Where do gamers stand on the issue of product placement
>in games? SimCity3000 is due out this year, and will be a killer 3D game
>that takes the
>original to unbelievable heights.
>
>Rick Marazzani
>Asst. Producer
>SC3k - Maxis
>sc...@maxis.com
>
>
I see no problem with "real" stores, I think it would add a lot... I think
the idea of the Sounds like or looks like McD's or the Gap is actually
insulting to the companies who are being imitated and to the consumer who
purchased the game, if you have permission, use it... It would add so much
to the game.
Ted Tschopp
KoolMan
> What do you think? Where do gamers stand on the issue of product
placement
> in games
I think it's a great idea. If you've got the permission, do it. Don't do
the praody thing though. I think thats really overused in computer games.
Maybe a few ACME products to add some flavor and other made up stuff to
balance it out.
. . .KoolMan
Erik Hermansen
Rick Marazzani wrote:
> Here on the Sc3k team, and we are wrangling with the issue of using real
> businesses and buildings in SimCity 3000. Basically, many of us on the
> development team think it would be cool to have real franchises and
> businesses represented in the game. i.e. instead of generic places, the
> Sims could eat at McD's, or shop at the GAP.
> We have permission from several businesses to use their logos and
> architecture, and we will not charge them for the privilege. These are not
> PAID ads, but a way to make Sim cities more realistic. During focus
> groups, a few parents complained that these product placements were
> inappropriate for a game. Of course, we would have a toggle to filter out
> the "real" stores.
> that takes the
> original to unbelievable heights.
>
> Rick Marazzani
> Asst. Producer
> SC3k - Maxis
> sc...@maxis.com
I don't think the real businesses would add or subtract much to the
game. Better to have parodies like the other guy said.
Hmm. I remember one case where I liked something like this. In the
movie Demolition Man, set in the future, the characters ate at a fancy
gourmet restaurant--Taco Bell.
Unless you can have some fun with it, then it really wouldn't mean much
for me. I get to see McDonald's and Gap every day.
--
/* Erik Hermansen (car...@halcyon.com) */
/* My game, DROD, is finally released. Find it at: */
/* http://webfootgames.com/catalog/drod.htm */
Charles Cameron
Rick, all:
> Here on the Sc3k team, and we are wrangling with the issue of
> using real businesses and buildings in SimCity 3000.
> During focus groups, a few parents complained that these
> product placements were inappropriate for a game. Of course,
> we would have a toggle to filter out the "real" stores.
From a rational point of view, the fact that you'd be offering a toggle
with both "corporate presence" and "no corporate presence" choices should
pretty much answer the question: those who would like virtual logos could
get them, those who don't could avoid them.
But I also think there's a more important underlying question you are
facing, which addresses the emotions rather than the intellect -- and it's
notorious that the two can give different answers to questions... Plenty
of players will prefer the game *with* McD or whatever because it's more
realistic: there will be a certain glee in it for them -- most of all when
first playing the game or showing it to friends -- because it will connect
with life, because the meme if you like will have those extra connections
and links and associations to work with. They will enthuse about those
logos and burgers and such. And a fair number of parents and a few players
will probably feel an active antipathy -- because in their case the
associations will be negative: how slick this, is, see how it entrains
young kids in the consumer ideology...
For what it's worth, I asked a psychologist friend who does family and
child counseling about the idea, and she said pretty much the same thing:
kids will connect with it, some parents will have a real cause for concern
because it will add subtly to the pressure already building from massive
advertising -- and peer identity -- to view life as a process of collecting
(owning, dressing in, eating, driving) all the "best" logos, in which all
values beside the bottom line wind up in distant second place... And from
her perspective, counseling children, this is a poor trend to encourage in
human development in any case, but really becomes problematic in a minority
of people who get seriously mixed up when they don't "have" the right
"proofs-of-self-worth" to wear.
Note that both the "players" and the "parents" in this scenario will be
responding from emotion far more than from logic... It will be a
gut-reaction to love the game for its verisimilitude, and a gut-reaction to
dislike it for its tie-in with the great logo-machine... and there's very
little that logic can say about such things: building in a toggle switch
won't affect the kinds of enthusiasm and distaste I'm talking about. Maybe
a parental override would help -- but that gets into a whole heap of
equally tricky questions.
*
You say the team is "wrangling with the issue", and I take it that means
that somehow your own emotions are involved, that your passion for the most
compulsively playable game and your passion for the most worthwhile game
are both at work. People like to take pride in what they do, and if
someone really feels their work -- eg as a fashion model -- is negatively
impacting the overall quality of life -- eg by emphasizing an unrealistic
ideal of beauty, leading some kids into extreme self-loathing, anorexia,
bulemia -- that's a real "issue to wrangle with".
I'd suggest your question is of a similar order, similarly hard to
disentangle. Just the fact that you're wrangling with it shows the full
set of human values at work -- the drive for excellence, in this case the
most playable game, the commercial drive, in this case for the game which
will enthuse the most players and recommend itself to the most parents, and
the most worthwhile game, in this case the game which will best educate and
least harmfully influence people.
So let's get into your (I mean, the game concept's) values for a moment.
To what extent is the idea -- insofar as it activates the human drive for
understanding -- to see what works and doesn't work in a sim of the
real-world we live in, and to what extent is it to see what might work and
what might not in an imagined close-to-the-real alternative world? Is
there, in other words, a "dystopian" vs "utopian" dimension implicit, even
if almost imperceptibly, in the game?
I ask this because the world seems fairly neatly divided into "pragmatists"
and "idealists", but most of what comes to be valued over time in our human
environment dervies from some individual's ideals which find their way into
practice. Pragmatists, left to their own devices, provide uninspired
additions to the human field of possibility, idealists left to their own
devices often come up with fatally flawed ideas whose very idealism often
leads to negative consequences (eg a religion of love >>> inquisitions,
heresy-hunts, witch-burnings, etc).
Is there room in SimCity3000 -- in our games in general, at some point in
the future development of Sims towards the "mirror worlds" that David
Gelernter talks about in his book of that name -- for humans to map and
model "the human good" in the widest (and still undecided) sense of the
term? For our games to be "wise" rather than merely "cool"?
*
A variant on John Conway's game "Life" is, I see, now being used at the
Santa Fe Institute to model the way the Anasazi culture of Arizona may have
arisen, thrived and died out... Our games are not just games, but also
early iterations of the human need to wrestle with the complex feedback
loops which govern human existence.
Linear thought isn't much good at this, but complex modeling and simulation
may be far better.
Artists, it has been said -- it was originally said of poets in fact, but
applies to workers-in-imagination in general -- are the "unacknowledged
legislators of the world". Computer games, in my view at least, are among
the most privileged and powerful imaginative devices ever made, and we are
just at the beginning of the story...
Again, it seems to me that many of us in the game world would like to see
games developed that address *more* of the human being than most current
games -- and which will bring *more* potential players to the games table.
Have you given up on this post as unbearably idealistic and non-realist?
Wargames in the Pentagon influence decisions which in turn influence who
lives and dies on the battlefield: our "social" sims are used in classrooms
and already impact "social" thinking to some extent for better or worse...
What sort of future do we wish to build with the work of our own minds,
hearts and hands?
Please respond, Rick and others, if you've gotten this far and aren't
totally offput by the issues I'm raising. Where do we want to go from
here?
Best wishes for a great game,
--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hip...@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://idt.net/~davehuge/
mirror site: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
Brent Nelson
On 23 Jul 1997 05:40:28 GMT, "Jake M. Billings" <ryu...@wcinet.net>
wrote:
I also like the parody idea. However, I would love the chance to
bulldoze a McDonnalds every time it reared it's ugly head :)....
I dont see why people would have a problem with real companies being
in the game. I dont even see why it would be wrong for you to charge
advertising fees for being in the game. I dont think these people
complain at the movies when the camera pans past an A&W, or when the
hero pops a stick of juicy fruit into his/her mouth, or when every
computer in "The Net" and "Mission Impossible" etc. is a Mac. Lets
face it, endorsments are everywhere. The inculsion of this in the
game does not in any way reduce the playability of the game IMO.
Of course I could see parents getting upset if you put big Budwieser
breweries and Cigarette plants in the game. (allthough it might
convince me to play it :)).
my unsubstanciated opinions. . . . .
--brent nelson
Michael K. Vance
Rick Marazzani wrote:
> What do you think? Where do gamers stand on the issue of product placement
> in games? SimCity3000 is due out this year, and will be a killer 3D game
> that takes the original to unbelievable heights.
Why would anyone want McDonald's ( http://www.mcspotlight.org )or the
GAP in their SC3k city? I thought the idea was to build your _ideal_
city. Mindless consumerism doesn't fit into my grand schemes, I must
say.
--
| Michael Vance - mkv...@psu.edu
| "Philanthropic people lose all sense of humanity.
| It is their distinguishing characteristic." - Oscar Wilde
SHedr24734
I like the idea. I have no problem with using real companies (with their
permission and sometimes without) to make something more realistic. I DO
have a problem with placing ads in games. It sounds to me like your use is
an illustration and not an ad.
Guy McLimore
>>development team think it would be cool to have real franchises and
>>businesses represented in the game. i.e. instead of generic places, the
>>Sims could eat at McD's, or shop at the GAP.
>> We have permission from several businesses to use their logos and
>>architecture, and we will not charge them for the privilege. These are not
>>groups, a few parents complained that these product placements were
>>inappropriate for a game. Of course, we would have a toggle to filter out
>>the "real" stores.
>>in games? SimCity3000 is due out this year, and will be a killer 3D game
>>that takes the
>>original to unbelievable heights.
>>
I think the real businesses would add some veriSIMilitude to the game
(sorry, couldn't resist) and make the Sim cities seem more like real
cities. I'd certainly welcome this feature.
Nominations for SIMulated businesses, chosen for recognizability:
Fast Food: McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Burger King, KFC, Long John Silvers
Restaurant Chains: Denny's, International House of Pancakes
Stores: Sears, J.C. Penney's, Nordstroms, The GAP, Barnes & Noble,
Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Toys R Us, Kay-Bee
In addition, billboards that appear along roadsides or in urban areas
should depict real products such as Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Maxis Software,
Apple and Compaq computers, Time, Newsweek, People, TV Guide magazines,
etc.
After all, the SIMworld is really OUR world, in miniature. We don't want
to deprive the Sims of the SIMple pleasures that we enjoy, do we?
Guy McLimore
P.S. Having said all this, need I remind you that if there is not a
Macintosh version of this incredible program in the planning stages, all
bets are off and I will be looking for some plutoniSim to make a SimNuke
for your simulated offices? I have a suicide squad of Mac-raised SimCity
2000 sims ready to undertake such a mission, should it be necessary. But
it won't be, I'm sure... Right? :)
Simon Smith
In article <01bc96c7$9118a120$c909...@rmarazza.maxis.com>,
sc...@maxis.com ("Rick Marazzani") wrote:
> Here on the Sc3k team, and we are wrangling with the issue of using real
> businesses and buildings in SimCity 3000. Basically, many of us on the
> development team think it would be cool to have real franchises and
> businesses represented in the game. i.e. instead of generic places, the
> Sims could eat at McD's, or shop at the GAP.
> We have permission from several businesses to use their logos and
> architecture, and we will not charge them for the privilege. These are not
> PAID ads, but a way to make Sim cities more realistic. During focus
> groups, a few parents complained that these product placements were
> inappropriate for a game. Of course, we would have a toggle to filter out
> the "real" stores.
> What do you think? Where do gamers stand on the issue of product placement
> in games? SimCity3000 is due out this year, and will be a killer 3D game
> that takes the original to unbelievable heights.
You could have a lot of fun with subtle parodies of existing companies.
You could end up making your game much more 'American' by doing this. This
may or may not be appreciated by European players. Conversely, if you put
'Sainsburys', 'WHSmiths', 'Waitrose' or 'Woolworths' in, I expect a lot of
US players will go, "Huh?" I think it would be a good compromise to make it
possible for third parties to create their own sprites and names for
buildings, shops, arcologies etc. and add them to the game.
On the whole, I think a toggle to filter out real stores is the very least
you should do. I also think that if you are going to this level of detail,
it would be great if it were possible to add the unique places/landmarks
present in various cities - the Eiffel Tower, the Leaning Tower of Pisa,
Selfridges etc. Any chance of that?
Incidentally, seeing as you are now over a thousand years ahead of the rest
of us, would you mind telling everybody how much hassle the year *3000*
millennium bug causes?
--
Simon Smith
All stop! I say, is this a five minute argument, or the full half-hour?
Chaos. Captain's Log, stardate 42761 point 9. <Woof!> I am a Vulcan.
However I could be in error. Microbrain! <Ding> <Twangggg> Shields up.
<Flute> <Twangg> <Twanggg>
Sean Timarco Baggaley
In article <guymc-24079...@guymcmac.evansville.net>, Guy
McLimore <gu...@evansville.net> writes
[In response to the Sim City 3000 team...]
>I think the real businesses would add some veriSIMilitude to the game
>(sorry, couldn't resist) and make the Sim cities seem more like real
>cities. I'd certainly welcome this feature.
But you need to consider that SC3K will be aimed at an *international*
market (I hope)...
>
>Nominations for SIMulated businesses, chosen for recognizability:
>
>Fast Food: McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Burger King, KFC, Long John Silvers
KFC and Burger King are not as widely known outside the US. They exist
in the UK, and some of the *really* famous cities in Europe, but most of
Europe and the CIS are still blissfully unaware of anyone other than
McMeat.
"Long John Silvers" is unknown outside the US. (I've certainly never
seen one in the UK.) The others are popular enough in the UK, (but I
think Pizza Hut is pushing it -- especially in the Italian market!)
>Restaurant Chains: Denny's, International House of Pancakes
Never heard of either of these.
>Stores: Sears, J.C. Penney's, Nordstroms, The GAP, Barnes & Noble,
>Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Toys R Us, Kay-Bee
Toys R Us exists over here, but they're not well known on mainland
Europe. (I can't speak for Japan; my parents' English Language school
hasn't had anyone from the Asian countries...)
>
>In addition, billboards that appear along roadsides or in urban areas
>should depict real products such as Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Maxis Software,
>Apple and Compaq computers, Time, Newsweek, People, TV Guide magazines,
>etc.
Coca-Cola: OK.
Pepsi: OK.
Maxis Software: Who? :)
Apple: OK
Compaq: Debateable -- many countries have their own 'prefered' brand
names. Compaq are only doing so-so in the UK; Dell and Gateway 2000 have
a better presence.
In Italy, for instance, it's Olivetti who get the lion's share.
Time: No. US mags are hard to find in Europe, except for the major
tourist centres.
Newsweek: Ditto.
People: Again, ditto.
TV Guide magazines: Localised, and usually with loads of different
names, but should be recogniseable -- they're all much of a muchness.
>After all, the SIMworld is really OUR world, in miniature. We don't want
>to deprive the Sims of the SIMple pleasures that we enjoy, do we?
Yes. But according to your post, it's a world that consists entirely of
the US. If this concept is to make sense in non-English-speaking
countries, you need to do some more research. For instance, the
equivalent of Barnes & Noble, in the UK, would be Dillons or
Waterstones. Similarly, the equivalent of K-Mart, in Italy, would be
either Upim or Standa.
For the effect to work in these countries, you'd have to localise the
product like no-one has ever localised before!
<Thinks>
(Hmmmm! There's money in this...)
</Thinks>
I take it all back! It's a great idea! Just remember to localise it
properly!
<Rubs hands with anticipatory glee>
>Guy McLimore
>
>P.S. Having said all this, need I remind you that if there is not a
>Macintosh version of this incredible program in the planning stages, all
>bets are off and I will be looking for some plutoniSim to make a SimNuke
>for your simulated offices? I have a suicide squad of Mac-raised SimCity
>2000 sims ready to undertake such a mission, should it be necessary. But
>it won't be, I'm sure... Right? :)
Damned right!
The only reason I use a PC is because Macs are too damned nice...
--
Sean "Multicultural research a speciality..." Baggaley
SOLARflair Creations.
(Writer, Computer Games Designer, (DOS/Win95) Programmer & Thing)
[Posting through my parents' account -- send no emails!]
My ISP's computers won't talk to mine again until Friday(ish). I'm also changing
the host name, so any e-mails sent to me over the last 12 days or so will never
be read. Sorry!
Keith M. Lucas
In article <33D5B4...@halcyon.com>,
Erik Hermansen <car...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>Rick Marazzani wrote:
>> Here on the Sc3k team, and we are wrangling with the issue of using real
>> businesses and buildings in SimCity 3000. Basically, many of us on the
>> development team think it would be cool to have real franchises and
>> businesses represented in the game. i.e. instead of generic places, the
>> Sims could eat at McD's, or shop at the GAP.
>> We have permission from several businesses to use their logos and
>> architecture, and we will not charge them for the privilege. These are not
>> PAID ads, but a way to make Sim cities more realistic. During focus
>> groups, a few parents complained that these product placements were
>> inappropriate for a game. Of course, we would have a toggle to filter out
>> the "real" stores.
>> What do you think? Where do gamers stand on the issue of product placement
>> in games? SimCity3000 is due out this year, and will be a killer 3D game
>> that takes the
>> original to unbelievable heights.
>>
>game. Better to have parodies like the other guy said.
>
>Hmm. I remember one case where I liked something like this. In the
>movie Demolition Man, set in the future, the characters ate at a fancy
>gourmet restaurant--Taco Bell.
I would raise at this point a localisation issue -- Demolition Man had
to be edited -- because for some of us, the response would be "WTF is
Taco Bell ?"
Similarly, "WTF is GAP ?". ( Actually I have some idea, but only from
reading MicroSerfs.. Joe Public probably won't. )
For the UK, you'll be wanting WHSmiths and the Co-op ( oh, and
McDonalds ) in the high street rather than the US stores. If your
roadside adverts feature AT&T they'll be wrong, you'll have to talk to
BT ( or preferably Orange since their adverts are more stylish )
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Keith M. Lucas
In article <hipbone-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net>,
Charles Cameron <hip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Rick, all:
>
>> Here on the Sc3k team, and we are wrangling with the issue of
>> using real businesses and buildings in SimCity 3000.
>
>> During focus groups, a few parents complained that these
>> product placements were inappropriate for a game. Of course,
>> we would have a toggle to filter out the "real" stores.
>
>child counseling about the idea, and she said pretty much the same thing:
>kids will connect with it, some parents will have a real cause for concern
>because it will add subtly to the pressure already building from massive
>advertising -- and peer identity -- to view life as a process of collecting
>(owning, dressing in, eating, driving) all the "best" logos, in which all
>values beside the bottom line wind up in distant second place... And from
>her perspective, counseling children, this is a poor trend to encourage in
>human development in any case, but really becomes problematic in a minority
>of people who get seriously mixed up when they don't "have" the right
>"proofs-of-self-worth" to wear.
Here's a concept -- a third setting on the switch !!
Real Corporate Presence --> Fictional Companies --> "John Carpenter's
They Live"
( For those of you who haven't seen the film, it's about the world
having been taken over by aliens, who've hypnotised humanity to
conform, to be part of their economic empire. All the posters really
read things like "Stay Asleep", "Marry and Reproduce", "Obey". Money
is really just bits of paper with "This is Your God" on it... )
Phoenix
<== Simon Smith wrote:
SS> expect a lot of US players will go, "Huh?" I think it would be a good
SS> compromise to make it possible for third parties to create their own
SS> sprites and names for buildings, shops, arcologies etc. and add them
SS> to the game.
actually, this was already possible with simcity 2000, though hardly anyone
noticed and I have seen only very few tile sets published (mostly via bbss').
==>
Kvan
On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Sean Timarco Baggaley wrote:
> KFC and Burger King are not as widely known outside the US. They exist
> in the UK, and some of the *really* famous cities in Europe, but most of
> Europe and the CIS are still blissfully unaware of anyone other than
> McMeat.
KFC is not widely known in Denmark, although we are blessed with two of
their restaurants, but Burger King sure is known and valued.
> >Stores: Sears, J.C. Penney's, Nordstroms, The GAP, Barnes & Noble,
> >Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Toys R Us, Kay-Bee
>
> Toys R Us exists over here, but they're not well known on mainland
> Europe. (I can't speak for Japan; my parents' English Language school
> hasn't had anyone from the Asian countries...)
Again, Toys'R'Us have been campaigning wildly in Denmark and is probably
the second best known toy chain here. Can't be much different for the rest
of Europe.
However, I believe 7-Eleven is probably one of the best known american
chains after McDonalds.
But enough of this. Let's get back to games design.
AAHench
"Rick Marazzani" <sc...@maxis.com> wrote:
> We have permission from several businesses to use their logos and
> architecture, and we will not charge them for the privilege. These
> are not PAID ads, but a way to make Sim cities more realistic. During
> focus groups, a few parents complained that these product placements
> were inappropriate for a game. Of course, we would have a toggle to
> filter out the "real" stores. What do you think? Where do gamers
> stand on the issue of product placement in games?
Put the logo/architecture images in files outside the main program itself.
You could have a separate file for each company, flagged as to what type
of zoning/property value it could show up in.
Using external files, players could then swap in or out those images they
like or dislike. Customizing the game for foreign markets would just be a
matter of releasing packets of image files representing businesses typical
for those markets.
In addition, if the format for these image files was open to the public,
players could create their /own/ images. These could be used in their own
games, and shared with other players around the world. Then, if someone
decided to take an existing company image and modify it to create a
parody, that would be the work of an individual, and not an official part
of the game as released by Maxis.
In addition to commerical images, how about using the same concept for
other things as well? Like allowing big red double-decker buses for
players in England.
Of course, I'm completely ignoring whether this would actually work with
how the game's programmed. ;)
Keith M. Lucas
In article <WRWXXCAU...@dial.pipex.com>,
Sean Timarco Baggaley <stbag...@sflair.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Time: No. US mags are hard to find in Europe, except for the major
>tourist centres.
And my doctor's waiting room for some reason...
>Newsweek: Ditto.
>People: Again, ditto.
>equivalent of Barnes & Noble, in the UK, would be Dillons or
>Waterstones.
Don't Dillon's own Waterstones ? Or vice versa ? Or both owned by the
same people ?
Sean Timarco Baggaley
[Myth Destruction System activated...]
In article <19970725235...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, AAHench
<aah...@aol.com> writes
>In addition to commerical images, how about using the same concept for
>other things as well? Like allowing big red double-decker buses for
>players in England.
Since our public transport has been privatised since the mid-80s, those
'big red double-decker buses' are becoming harder to find. In addition,
those red buses were always unique to *London* -- where I live, the
predominant colours are green and yellow, and used to be brown and
cream. (Colchester Borough Transport's original livery, before it was
sold off.)
Those old London Transport Routemaster buses, (the ones without the
doors -- just an open platform at the rear,) have had to be refurbished
long past their sell-by dates to keep them on the road, and are only to
be found in Central London and the private bus companies did that purely
to attract the tourists! Even London's own suburbs have very few 'red'
buses left.
London Transport is now reduced to running the London Underground and
little else. (And this government is considering selling off the
Underground as well.)
The same thing has happened to those old, red telephone boxes. Those few
that remain are actually listed buildings! This makes it illegal for
them to be demolished and replaced without permission from English
Heritage.
>Of course, I'm completely ignoring whether this would actually work with
>how the game's programmed. ;)
No reason why it shouldn't. Doom and Quake allow their graphics to be
changed and implementing that sort of thing is fairly trivial. You may
need to write a few utilities, though; especially if your game uses
Doom-style files that contain all the game data for each level or
section.
--
Sean "Save The Bus" Baggaley --- SOLARflair Creations.
(Now a freelance Writer, Computer Games Designer, Programmer & Thing)
eMail: s...@sflair.demon.co.uk
Web: http://www.sflair.demon.co.uk
Anshul Amar
I found this post (Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Charles Cameron) on the sc3k issue
very interesting, illuminating, and heartening. A few points brought up
several issues that have been running through my mind:
<hip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Artists, it has been said -- it was originally said of poets in fact, but
> applies to workers-in-imagination in general -- are the "unacknowledged
> legislators of the world". Computer games, in my view at least, are among
> the most privileged and powerful imaginative devices ever made, and we are
> just at the beginning of the story...
Computer games *are* privileged and powerful; they are incredibly
engaging, in a way that both movies and books are, but perhaps even more
so. Even the books I've read four times or the movies I've seen a dozen
times have occupied only a fraction of the amount of time I've spent on
Quake or CivII or even Angband. I think this is enough to suggest that
computer games can have a powerful and continuing effect on its users, an
effect that can go beyond entertaining.
Actually, I think most people who are working in computer games or even
seriously interested in them is more than just "entertained." We feel
excitement, tension, or that we've accomplished something, or learned
something. These are important things that game designers can take into
mind, by which I mean: we can be conscious of the type of thinking that
the game presumes and demands, and the landscape we're offering the user.
The appeal of the Simcity games has always seemed to be to have something
to do with the beauty and of the tiny cities, and as such, doesn't have a
lot to do with garish red & yellow logos. Why give these chains so much
power that they have franchises even in our parallel dimensions? It's
disturbing to think that these -particular- logos would, in the minds of
children, become a fundamental features of the abstract City. How about a
variety of different architectural styles from around the world? Mixed
together to create a vision of the heterogeneous world of the future?
> You say the team is "wrangling with the issue", and I take it that means
> that somehow your own emotions are involved, that your passion for the most
> compulsively playable game and your passion for the most worthwhile game
> are both at work. People like to take pride in what they do, and if
> someone really feels their work -- eg as a fashion model -- is negatively
> impacting the overall quality of life -- eg by emphasizing an unrealistic
> ideal of beauty, leading some kids into extreme self-loathing, anorexia,
> bulemia -- that's a real "issue to wrangle with".
>
I, for one, still get a little embarrassed explaining to people that I'm
working on a video game. I think that most people in the industry must
have felt that at -one- point or another. Partly, I think it's because
the assumptions or accusations that video games are trivial, mindless, and
escapist hold true too often. If we are serious as well as fun-loving,
critical of our own assumptions and preconceptions, and if we pay
attention to the global changes, and concerns, we could maybe find some
more of those New Genres and Innovations that we're always looking for.
And be even more comfortably proud of what we're doing, both because other
people respect the genre, and because we'd know we were doing what we
could to enlighten and create.
I apologize sincerely for any and all didacticism. I only feel that the
industry is increasingly resembling the mannerisms of Hollywood and that
game makers might distinguish themselves by making something Independent:
something more personal or literary or academic or political or stylized.
Now, if we could only get grants...
Thanks
A. Amar
Charles Cameron
Anshul Amar <am...@shore.net> writes:
> Computer games *are* privileged and powerful; they are
> incredibly engaging, in a way that both movies and books are, but
> perhaps even more so.
Yesterday I ran across a discussion where the folks involved were taking
games very seriously both as an art form and as a form with immense social
impact. The topic for discussion was set by the editors of Feedmag, who
were running the show. They asked (among other things):
:: Is this a sign that the videogame is ready to move beyond
:: mindless thumb candy, towards real cultural achievement, the
:: way early cinema moved from the penny arcades to Battleship
:: Potemkin?
And the people doing the talking were Mark Dery, editor of *Flame Wars* and
author of *Escape Velocity*, games designer Therese Duncan, *Playing the
Future* author Douglas Rushkoff, and J.C. Herz, the author of *Joystick
Nation*.
Therese Duncan, for instance, said:
:: I'm looking forward to meeting the kid who's dissatisfied today
:: with the barren emotional landscape of Quake who will grow up
:: to become the first videogame auteur, or the first game designer
:: to have an exhibit at The Museum of Modern Art.
There was quite a lot, in fact, about the issue of game "auteurs" -- and
whether we'd look back on Doom or Myst the way we look back on an Alfred
Hitchcock movie: a genre piece, yes, but one with such a distinctive style
as to be immediately recognizable, and so on... as in J.C. Herz remarks:
:: Which raises the question of whether game designers with a
:: particular style or voice - the folks at id, say, or the Rand
:: brothers - can claim to be videogame auteurs. I think they can.
:: After all, Hitchcock didn't invent the thriller, and many have
:: been made since. But there's no mistaking a Hitchcock flick (or a
:: slavish Hitchcock rip-off). Ditto, Doom.
Better get ready, folks -- the hunt is on. These questions can and will be
raised, because we *are* in fact producing immensely influential
imagination-devices, and imagination-devices set the tone for life
itself... So this goes way beyond "who's an artist?" to "what world(s) do
we want for our children?"...
Therese Duncan also said:
:: It is tantalizing to think of "avant garde" or "underground"
:: games; games that are beautiful and distinct, whether that means
:: my definition of a good game--a combination of Lewis Carroll,
:: Ms. Pac Man and Roland Barthes--or a seventeen year old who
:: creates a concatenation of Quake, beat poetry, and conceptual
:: art. If a game is made by someone who cares even a little it
:: shows.
Again, the idea of "avant garde" or "underground" games -- in the context
of games as a very new artform perhaps comparable to early cinema -- is a
tantalising one. Who and where are our Jean Cocteaus and our Maya Derens?
And then there was Mark Deren -- not as far as I know a relation of Maya's,
by the way, though I suppose he might be -- being just a wee bit naughty
about Myst and Tolkien:
:: Myst is obviously the Tres Riches Heures of videogames, but
:: even Myst isn't Tolkien (the inevitable comparisons
:: notwithstanding) and Tolkien is just Beowulf for people who
:: haven't sold their Uriah Heep records, anyway.
I don't think the Tolkien remarks are fair to either Myst or Tolkien, but
comparing Myst to one of the greatest of medieval illuminated manuscripts
-- and I think it's the visuals of Myst, not the game, that he's comparing
with the visuals of the Tres Riches Heures, not the calendar aspect or
whatever --that's a pretty high compliment.
And I wonder what Mark Deren would make of Zork Nemesis or Obsidian..
*
If you're interested, you can find the entire discussion to date up on the
web at:
http://www.feedmag.com/index.html
under the heading "Game Theory" -- parts 1 and 2 are already up, and I
guess there's a part 3 still to come...
*
All in all, it seems the Feedmag panel members are thinking along pretty
much the same lines as you are, Anshul, when you write:
> I only feel that the industry is increasingly resembling the
> mannerisms of Hollywood and that game makers might
> distinguish themselves by making something Independent:
> something more personal or literary or academic or political or
> stylized. Now, if we could only get grants...
But remember, Hollywood includes the indies, and profits from them. And at
the last Academy Awards, it was the indies which took all the honors...
Best wishes,
Charles Cameron
Anshul Amar <am...@shore.net> writes:
> I found this post (Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Charles Cameron) on the
> sc3k issue very interesting, illuminating, and heartening.
Thanks, Anshul.
As far as the question of SC3K and the "franchises" goes, I think your
formulation of the issue:
> Why give these chains so much power that they have franchises
> even in our parallel dimensions?
expresses things very nicely: "our parallel dimensions" are pretty special
places...
> It's disturbing to think that these -particular- logos would, in the
> minds of children, become fundamental features of the abstract
> City.
and here's the heart of the matter. SimCities may look like no more and no
less than commercial product from one viewpoint, but from another viewpoint
they're a lot more: they're ways we model reality -- as it is, as it might
be -- to the imagination. As I said in another post today, we are in fact
producing immensely influential imagination-devices, and
imagination-devices set the tone for life itself...
That's what was meant, I believe, by that quote about poets being "the
unacknowledged legislators of mankind": it's our imagination-devices, from
MTV videos and 30-second commercials to "Bladerunner" to "Gettysburg", that
to a large extent "give" us our past and our future...
*
> How about a variety of different architectural styles from around
> the world? Mixed together to create a vision of the
> heterogeneous world of the future?
I don't imagine the SC3K team can implement any major architectural changes
at this point, but this idea seems worth pursuing in future games -- and if
it rings a bell with anyone else in the industry, I'd like to recommend
Christopher Alexander's book, *A Pattern Language* -- the reviewer in
Architectural Design called it "pewhaps the most important book on
architectural design published this century", so I'm not out on too much of
a limb on this one.
My personal bible when it comes to thinking about the flow through
different kinds of spaces...
Best,
Joe Lee
On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Sean Timarco Baggaley wrote:
> >Of course, I'm completely ignoring whether this would actually work with
> >how the game's programmed. ;)
>
> No reason why it shouldn't. Doom and Quake allow their graphics to be
> changed and implementing that sort of thing is fairly trivial. You may
> need to write a few utilities, though; especially if your game uses
> Doom-style files that contain all the game data for each level or
> section.
Assuming, of course, that you're running the game on a PC. But, knowing
SimCity (and judging from the *3D* description), it's probably also going
to be on consoles, where it may be slightly more difficult to generate
localized versions for every different commercial market. :)
--=o0o=--
Joe Lee -- le...@cda.mrs.umn.edu
David Andrew Helder
Personally, I would lose a great deal of respect for Maxis if they
put real businesses (or even businesses remarkably similar to real
businesses) in the game. It would be more imaginative and impressive if
they came up with your own businesses. I understand that Maxis is
striving to make a very realistic game, but there's a point where it can
stop. Why must a game be totally realistic? How much does it really add
to the gameplay?
I would hate to see Maxis start a new trend in product placement
in video games (or has this already happened?). There are too many ads in
the world already. I don't think people, especially kids, need to see
more.
David
--
David Helder - University of Michigan dhe...@umich.edu
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~dhelder
Mark Henderson
>(sorry, couldn't resist) and make the Sim cities seem more like real
>cities. I'd certainly welcome this feature.
>
>
>Fast Food: McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Burger King, KFC, Long John Silvers
>
>
>Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Toys R Us, Kay-Bee
>
>should depict real products such as Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Maxis Software,
>Apple and Compaq computers, Time, Newsweek, People, TV Guide magazines,
>etc.
This post illustrates my prime concern over the use of real-world
businesses in the game - most of these firms are uniquely American.
Sales of the game outside of the States would be severely impacted if it
was full of references that non-Americans couldn't follow.
>After all, the SIMworld is really OUR world, in miniature. We don't want
>to deprive the Sims of the SIMple pleasures that we enjoy, do we?
A city full of icons that Americans would recognise immediately would
probably be meaningless to the rest of the world. The appeal of SC2000
was that the city could be anywhere, even though it had a slight
American feel to it.
If the game becomes too American in tone then I, for one, would not buy
it if only because, paradoxicly, it would be less realistic from my
point of view.
--
Mark Henderson
Wheathampstead, England.
Input error. Replace user and press any key to continue.
Brent P. Newhall
On 29 Jul 1997 14:43:35 GMT, dhe...@joust.rs.itd.umich.edu (David
Andrew Helder) wrote:
> Personally, I would lose a great deal of respect for Maxis if they
>put real businesses (or even businesses remarkably similar to real
>businesses) in the game. It would be more imaginative and impressive if
>they came up with your own businesses. I understand that Maxis is
>striving to make a very realistic game, but there's a point where it can
>stop. Why must a game be totally realistic? How much does it really add
>to the gameplay?
I live in the Washington, D.C. area. When I watch The X-Files, I get
a kick out of seeing Mulder and Scully at locales around D.C. That's
what they're trying to add to SC3000: an "I recognize that!" feeling
for the player. It makes the game more personal.
> I would hate to see Maxis start a new trend in product placement
>in video games (or has this already happened?). There are too many ads in
>the world already.
Does "RTFOP" (Read The Flaming Original Post) exist as a standard
acronym on usenet yet? Well, even if it doesn't, I think I'll
inaugurate it:
RTFOP! They aren't ads! The companies aren't paying for them.
Brent P. Newhall
"Education never ceases."
Paul Kinsler
Brent P. Newhall (Mas...@juno.com) wrote:
: [real companies in SC2300]
: RTFOP! They aren't ads! The companies aren't paying for them.
Then the makers are the game are being stupid. If
they are going to have product placement, why the
hell not charge for it?
#Paul.
Charles Cameron
When Brent Newhall wrote:
> They aren't ads! The companies aren't paying for them.
Paul Kinsler responded:
> Then the makers are the game are being stupid. If they are going
> to have product placement, why the hell not charge for it?
The SC3K team is raising the whole issue here partly because their focus
groups have shown that some parents don't like the idea of McD in games
*even if McD doesn't pay for the placement*. I think the argument would
be that if McD *did* pay for the placement, even *more* parents would be
turned off the game.
Also I got the impression from the original post that they felt -- rightly,
in my view -- that paid product placement was invidious in film, and would
be invidious in games too, because it gives advertisers an opening to
influence design...
So I'm glad to see the industry *thinking* and *talking* about these things...
Bruce Godden
Brent P. Newhall wrote:
>
> On 29 Jul 1997 14:43:35 GMT, dhe...@joust.rs.itd.umich.edu (David
> Andrew Helder) wrote:
>
> > Personally, I would lose a great deal of respect for Maxis if they
> >put real businesses (or even businesses remarkably similar to real
> >businesses) in the game. It would be more imaginative and impressive if
> >they came up with your own businesses. I understand that Maxis is
> >striving to make a very realistic game, but there's a point where it can
> >stop. Why must a game be totally realistic? How much does it really add
> >to the gameplay?
>
> I live in the Washington, D.C. area. When I watch The X-Files, I get
> a kick out of seeing Mulder and Scully at locales around D.C. That's
> what they're trying to add to SC3000: an "I recognize that!" feeling
> for the player. It makes the game more personal.
You recognize it is because it is a real place. The mere inclusion of
common business names would not give the same effect. Further, I would
say that it would be depressing, giving the impression of any old city
in any old country , instead of the feeling of an original and exciting
location.
(BTW. Have you noticed how distracting it is to watch a program
supposedly
located in a place you know. I find I spend my time thinking "He's going
the wrong way ... the town hall is south of the shopping centre." and
such like things. Often I lose the plot as a result!)
> > I would hate to see Maxis start a new trend in product placement
> >in video games (or has this already happened?). There are too many ads in
> >the world already.
>
> Does "RTFOP" (Read The Flaming Original Post) exist as a standard
> acronym on usenet yet? Well, even if it doesn't, I think I'll
> inaugurate it:
>
> RTFOP! They aren't ads! The companies aren't paying for them.
Just because they aren't paid for doesn't stop them being ads. They are
the same as product placements in films. These are paid for and are
presumably deemed worth paying for by the product manufacturers. This
just goes to show how naive the games industry is.
Bruce Godden
David Andrew Helder
In article <33E095...@nospam.isltd.insignia.com>,
Bruce Godden <bruce....@nospam.isltd.insignia.com> wrote:
>Just because they aren't paid for doesn't stop them being ads. They are
>the same as product placements in films. These are paid for and are
>presumably deemed worth paying for by the product manufacturers. This
>just goes to show how naive the games industry is.
Exactly. I assume Maxis would go out and ask these companies for
permission to use their trademarks. What I fear happening then is that
these companies will think, "Damn, I wish we thought of this sooner", and
start seeking out other software companies who they will then pay to place
ads in their products.
I'm surprised I haven't seen ads in games yet. Think about it,
just three years ago when we used the web (probably with Mosaic or Lynx),
the web was banner and cookie free. Now, I can't visit a web site without
seeing a banner and giving the server a couple cookies ("tossing it
cookies" would be a better phrase). Either no one's thought seriously of
it yet or there's still a lot indie spirit in the game community.
We pay for web site content by looking at their ads, so lets
extend this scenario: what if game companies started recieving most of
their revenues from product placement? Players wouldn't want to pay
$50-60 (US) for a game with ads, so game companies, since their making
money from ads, would sell the games for next to nothing or even give them
away.
Sean Timarco Baggaley
In article <5rqffo$2r4$1...@newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu>, David Andrew
Helder <dhe...@pacman.rs.itd.umich.edu> writes
>In article <33E095...@nospam.isltd.insignia.com>,
>Bruce Godden <bruce....@nospam.isltd.insignia.com> wrote:
>>Just because they aren't paid for doesn't stop them being ads. They are
>>the same as product placements in films. These are paid for and are
>>presumably deemed worth paying for by the product manufacturers. This
>>just goes to show how naive the games industry is.
>
> Exactly. I assume Maxis would go out and ask these companies for
>permission to use their trademarks. What I fear happening then is that
>these companies will think, "Damn, I wish we thought of this sooner", and
>start seeking out other software companies who they will then pay to place
>ads in their products.
> I'm surprised I haven't seen ads in games yet. Think about it,
They've been doing it for years. One of the most publicised was an Amiga
game called "Robocod" (the sequel to "James Pond") which featured rather
heavy plugging of 'Penguin' biscuits. This was wa-a-a-a-y back in 1993.
I've noticed that some football [soccer] games are featuring 'real' ads,
too.
In addition, you may have escaped their latest release, but there's a
game called "Animal" on the shelves which was based entirely around the
(UK, not sure about the US) 'Pepperami' mascot. It was released by a
company called 'Microtime Media' (or similar) who specialise in product
placements for the games industry.
Judging by your response, I surmise that they're obviously not very good
at it... :)
> David
Yours,
--
Sean Timarco Baggaley --- SOLARflair Creations.
(Writer, Game Designer, WebMaestro, Programmer and Thing.)
eMail: s...@solarflair.demon.co.uk
Web: http://www.solarflair.demon.co.uk
Unknown
"Keith M. Lucas" <sillywiz@excession_dot.demon_dot.co_dot.uk_no_dot>
wrote:
>In article <WRWXXCAU...@dial.pipex.com>,
>Sean Timarco Baggaley <stbag...@sflair.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Time: No. US mags are hard to find in Europe, except for the major
>>tourist centres.
>And my doctor's waiting room for some reason...
>>Newsweek: Ditto.
>>People: Again, ditto.
>>equivalent of Barnes & Noble, in the UK, would be Dillons or
>>Waterstones.
>Don't Dillon's own Waterstones ? Or vice versa ? Or both owned by the
>same people ?
Yes. As far as I know, the company owns Dillions, Waterstones (the
takeover was completed in the early 90s, or at least, late 80s) and
Books, etc. However, they don't publicised this fact. God knows why.
Catty - who would like to own Foyles, or at least, to be related to
Christina Foyle.
A-Couple-A-Nerds Computer Consulting
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:57:44 GMT, Mas...@juno.com (Brent P. Newhall)
wrote:
>I live in the Washington, D.C. area. When I watch The X-Files, I get
>a kick out of seeing Mulder and Scully at locales around D.C. That's
>what they're trying to add to SC3000: an "I recognize that!" feeling
>for the player. It makes the game more personal.
I live in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, and I probably get even
more of a kick out of the X-Files, when they show an american
location, that I swear I walked by the other day.... (grin)
ttyl
Jason
Timothy P O'Neill
Rick Marazzani (sc...@maxis.com) wrote:
: Here on the Sc3k team, and we are wrangling with the issue of using real
: businesses and buildings in SimCity 3000. Basically, many of us on the
: development team think it would be cool to have real franchises and
: businesses represented in the game. i.e. instead of generic places, the
: Sims could eat at McD's, or shop at the GAP.
I know I woldn't like this effect. Aside from concerns about advertising,
and its corrupting influence on game design, I know I as a player would
find it irritating. It would make me feel less in control, when my city
started to have the same strip-mall generic stores as every other city I
see in the real world.
Something which *would* make it entertaining for me is if you made it a
real part of the game - in addition to marking some businesses as GAP,
McDonald's, Best Buy, Border's Books, etc., have some businesses clearly
identified as locally owned, small businesses. And have the policies set
effect which of the two sorts of businesses is more likely to locate and
thrive in the city.
+-------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
| Timothy P. O'Neill/Cretog8 | one...@fido.econlab.arizona.edu |
+--------------+----------------+--------------------------------------+
| 505-266-5281 | One monkey don't stop no show |
+--------------+-------------------------------------------------------+
John J. Slade
My quick reply -
Don't put them in. There are enough commercial messages in our worlds
already - I don't have a TV cus I hate commercials (their values are
ALLLL messed up) and, frankly, inclusion of the logos would probably
keep me from buying the product.
John
Gerry Quinn
In article <EDtE0o.G5@excession_dot.demon_dot.co_dot.uk_no_dot>, "Keith M. Lucas" <sillywiz@excession_dot.demon_dot.co_dot.uk_no_dot> wrote:
>In article <hipbone-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net>,
>Charles Cameron <hip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>Rick, all:
>>
>>> using real businesses and buildings in SimCity 3000.
>>
>>> product placements were inappropriate for a game. Of course,
>>> we would have a toggle to filter out the "real" stores.
>>
>>child counseling about the idea, and she said pretty much the same thing:
>>kids will connect with it, some parents will have a real cause for concern
>>because it will add subtly to the pressure already building from massive
>>advertising -- and peer identity -- to view life as a process of collecting
>>(owning, dressing in, eating, driving) all the "best" logos, in which all
>>values beside the bottom line wind up in distant second place... And from
>>her perspective, counseling children, this is a poor trend to encourage in
>>human development in any case, but really becomes problematic in a minority
>>of people who get seriously mixed up when they don't "have" the right
>>"proofs-of-self-worth" to wear.
Kids who play Sim City are unlikely to have a problem with this, unless
anoraks become a fashion statement.
- Gerry
==================================================================
Mailto: ger...@indigo.ie (Gerry Quinn)
Original puzzlers (Windows or Amiga)-> http://indigo.ie/~gerryq
==================================================================
NFalstein
LucasArts approached Coca Cola in the late 80's to see if they could get
any money for featuring a Coke machine in their Monkey Island game, and
Coke promptly offered an outrageous charge to use it. I guess the idea
was that everyone would want to play the game because it had a coke
machine in it. Anyway, the result was that the machine became a generic
soft-drink machine. So this has been tried, it's just recently that the
big product companies have realized that games may reach a wide market.
Noah Falstein
Freelance Interactive Designer/Producer
Chairman, Computer Game Developers Association
nfal...@aol.com (OK, AOL, please don't judge me for it!)
R. Dan Henry
>RTFOP! They aren't ads! The companies aren't paying for them.
That makes them free ads. Even worse. If I've got to suffer ads, I
want them at least contributing to a lower purchase price.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
http://home.inreach.com/danhenry/
Philosopher, poet, idealist, netaddict
Chris Muir
It has been said before but I want to throw my two bits in.
Firstly, as an Australian (not that I represent all Australians), I
feel a certain amount of dislike for American corporations such as
McDonalds. To me McDonalds symbolises how American culture is overly
influencing other world cultures (and no, I don't want to get into a
debate about this). I might not buy your game because of this fact.
Mind you I might not buy your game if it had Australian adverts in it.
Why not take the whole thing a few steps forward? Apply dry wit and
sarcasm, or present an advantages/disadvantages view to generic
corporations who loosely resemble large world comporations. Make fun
of them so that your game players can draw a parallel between the game
and the real world. Provide a learning experience where the player
can learn what such corporations do to a city and its people. It
doesn't have to be negative but you get the idea. I used to enjoy
reading the newspaper reports headlines in the original game and maybe
you can use the same mechanism for portraying the above. (just
suggestions)
Secondly, I'm worried that such advertising is a foot in the door to
further advertising in games. I don't want games to turn into just
another forum for marketing as it appears to be doing on the Web. I
know it will, but lets try and delay it. Remember kids buy games and
just like violence influencing them on TV, adverts can influence them
in a game.
Like I said, just my two bits worth. Only wanted to express my
opinion.
Have a good week. Chris Muir :)
Victor Martins Sant'Anna
dhe...@pacman.rs.itd.umich.edu (David Andrew Helder) wrote:
> I'm surprised I haven't seen ads in games yet. Think about it,
I coldn't receive any attention from my employers...
Brent P. Newhall
On 1 Aug 1997 18:04:04 GMT, tim...@nmia.com (Timothy P O'Neill)
wrote:
>Rick Marazzani (sc...@maxis.com) wrote:
>: Here on the Sc3k team, and we are wrangling with the issue of using real
>: businesses and buildings in SimCity 3000. Basically, many of us on the
>: development team think it would be cool to have real franchises and
>: businesses represented in the game. i.e. instead of generic places, the
>: Sims could eat at McD's, or shop at the GAP.
>
>I know I woldn't like this effect. Aside from concerns about advertising,
>and its corrupting influence on game design, I know I as a player would
>find it irritating. It would make me feel less in control, when my city
>started to have the same strip-mall generic stores as every other city I
>see in the real world.
>
>Something which *would* make it entertaining for me is if you made it a
>real part of the game - in addition to marking some businesses as GAP,
>McDonald's, Best Buy, Border's Books, etc., have some businesses clearly
>identified as locally owned, small businesses. And have the policies set
>effect which of the two sorts of businesses is more likely to locate and
>thrive in the city.
RTOP (Read The Original Post)
They'll have a toggle that lets you turn the "real businesses" on and
off.
Peter
Mark Henderson wrote:
>
> In article <guymc-24079...@guymcmac.evansville.net>, Guy
> McLimore <gu...@evansville.net> writes
> >I think the real businesses would add some veriSIMilitude to the game
> >(sorry, couldn't resist) and make the Sim cities seem more like real
> >cities. I'd certainly welcome this feature.
> >
> >Nominations for SIMulated businesses, chosen for recognizability:
> >
> >Fast Food: McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Burger King, KFC, Long John Silvers
> >
> >Restaurant Chains: Denny's, International House of Pancakes
> >
> >Stores: Sears, J.C. Penney's, Nordstroms, The GAP, Barnes & Noble,
> >Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Toys R Us, Kay-Bee
> >
> >In addition, billboards that appear along roadsides or in urban areas
> >should depict real products such as Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Maxis Software,
> >Apple and Compaq computers, Time, Newsweek, People, TV Guide magazines,
> >etc.
>
> This post illustrates my prime concern over the use of real-world
> businesses in the game - most of these firms are uniquely American.
> Sales of the game outside of the States would be severely impacted if it
> was full of references that non-Americans couldn't follow.
I recognize three of the franchise shops above (MacDonalds, Burger King
and Toyr R Us), and all the stuff in the "billboard" paragraph. The rest
is just meaningless names to me (I might remember a few from reading
"microserfs" by Douglas Coupland, but that's pretty faint), I have no
relationship whatsoever with the other companies mentioned, and it would
not make sense for me to see signs adverising their products, or
shops selling their product.
(I live in Denmark, and we regard ourselves as possibly the most
americanized country in Europe. I don't think there's anything
wrong with that, in fact)
> >After all, the SIMworld is really OUR world, in miniature. We don't want
> >to deprive the Sims of the SIMple pleasures that we enjoy, do we?
>
> A city full of icons that Americans would recognise immediately would
> probably be meaningless to the rest of the world. The appeal of SC2000
> was that the city could be anywhere, even though it had a slight
> American feel to it.
I would not let the inclusion of real-world companies be a deciding
factor.
If I bought it, it would be because I felt like playing mayor again. If
I
didn't, it would be because Maxis games have a tendence to leave me
feeling
like a specator. I click a button, and expect a lot to happen, but in
fact
only small things change. I think Sim City 2000 felt a bit "silly" at
some
points, greater complexity is nice, but some things you could do seemed
to
have no effect at all...
> If the game becomes too American in tone then I, for one, would not buy
> it if only because, paradoxicly, it would be less realistic from my
> point of view.
What Maxis games seem to suffer from (and 99% of US citizens along with
them) is called etnocentrism. No easy cure has been found yet.
(And I don't think American Culture is a 100% bad thing. They just take
it for granted, as if every other place was like the USA)
Peter
Chris Weiss
Sean Timarco Baggaley <stbag...@sflair.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
<bQHEHGAn...@solarflair.demon.co.uk>:
>In article <5rqffo$2r4$1...@newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu>, David Andrew
>Helder <dhe...@pacman.rs.itd.umich.edu> writes
>>In article <33E095...@nospam.isltd.insignia.com>,
>>Bruce Godden <bruce....@nospam.isltd.insignia.com> wrote:
>>>Just because they aren't paid for doesn't stop them being ads. They
are
>>>the same as product placements in films. These are paid for and are
>>>presumably deemed worth paying for by the product manufacturers. This
>>>just goes to show how naive the games industry is.
>>
>> Exactly. I assume Maxis would go out and ask these companies
for
>>permission to use their trademarks. What I fear happening then is
that
>>these companies will think, "Damn, I wish we thought of this sooner",
and
>>start seeking out other software companies who they will then pay to
place
>>ads in their products.
>> I'm surprised I haven't seen ads in games yet. Think about it,
>
>They've been doing it for years. One of the most publicised was an
Amiga
>game called "Robocod" (the sequel to "James Pond") which featured
rather
>heavy plugging of 'Penguin' biscuits. This was wa-a-a-a-y back in 1993.
>
>I've noticed that some football [soccer] games are featuring 'real'
ads,
>too.
>
>In addition, you may have escaped their latest release, but there's a
>game called "Animal" on the shelves which was based entirely around the
>(UK, not sure about the US) 'Pepperami' mascot. It was released by a
>company called 'Microtime Media' (or similar) who specialise in product
>placements for the games industry.
>
>Judging by your response, I surmise that they're obviously not very
good
>at it... :)
>
>> David
>
Lets not forget Cool Spot for the consoles, based entirely around the
adventures of the 7-Up mascot (which sold quite well).
The one really big "advertising" push in videogames that has become so
ubiquitous that it doesn't even enter people's minds anymore as
advertising is sports franchise licenses.
Titles like "NHL Hockey", "Madden Football", "NBA Jams", "NFL '97",
"Bulls VS whoever". Think about it - these are all paid advertisments
for sports franchises. Do the licenses add anything to gameplay other
than "realism"? Do people get offended that they're purchasing a product
that's such a well integrated advertisment that even the product name
itself reflects the franchise being pushed. Does it reduce the price of
the product? (for those who haven't priced one of these products lately,
they definetely are NOT any cheaper than the "nameless" competition).
How many people who spoke out against having product placement in
SimCity 3000 (or any other game) enjoy any of the above titles? If you
answered "me", what is different about the two situations that makes one
acceptable and the other not (note - I'm not saying you're wrong, I
myself balk at the idea of product placement, but make a point to get
the next version of several titles as soon as they're released. I just
wonder what the difference is).
Chris Weiss - Producer: SimCity 3000
David Andrew Helder
In article <5sd205$2bn$1...@ccnet2.ccnet.com>,
Chris Weiss <cwe...@maxis.com> wrote:
>Lets not forget Cool Spot for the consoles, based entirely around the
>adventures of the 7-Up mascot (which sold quite well).
>
>The one really big "advertising" push in videogames that has become so
>ubiquitous that it doesn't even enter people's minds anymore as
>advertising is sports franchise licenses.
>Titles like "NHL Hockey", "Madden Football", "NBA Jams", "NFL '97",
>"Bulls VS whoever". Think about it - these are all paid advertisments
>for sports franchises. Do the licenses add anything to gameplay other
>than "realism"? Do people get offended that they're purchasing a product
>that's such a well integrated advertisment that even the product name
>itself reflects the franchise being pushed. Does it reduce the price of
>the product? (for those who haven't priced one of these products lately,
>they definetely are NOT any cheaper than the "nameless" competition).
I think that's a different sort of product placement than the kind
I object too and the difference is the amount of integration and the use
of the advertisement. I would argue that this really isn't product
placement at all, but just software based on or inspired by a product.
Also, in all of the sports examples, people rarely think of the NBA, NFL,
etc as businesses. Playing NHL Hockey is probably not going to cause
someone to watch more NHL. Moreover, a NHL Hockey player probably plays
NHL already. Moreover, sports businesses are very different than other
sorts of businesses.
In the case of Cool Spot, I would guess that the game was
commissioned by 7-Up (a sort of vanity game). Chris said that this game
sold quite well, so perhaps they were smart enough to choose good
developers for the game (and make it worth their time to make a good
game).
>How many people who spoke out against having product placement in
>SimCity 3000 (or any other game) enjoy any of the above titles? If you
>answered "me", what is different about the two situations that makes one
>acceptable and the other not (note - I'm not saying you're wrong, I
>myself balk at the idea of product placement, but make a point to get
>the next version of several titles as soon as they're released. I just
>wonder what the difference is).
Another difference is the amount of choice the consumer is allowed
in seeing the ad. I buy NHL Hockey knowing very well that it is
associated with the NHL and that I will see plenty of NHL related images.
However, when I buy another game that isn't obviously sponsered by a
corporation, I don't expect to see ads. For example, I didn't see ads in
the first two Sim City's so I don't expect to see them in the third. If I
start playing SC3k and there are ads, I would feel mislead because I
didn't know that SC3k would have ads.
Bruce Godden
Chris Weiss wrote:
>
> The one really big "advertising" push in videogames that has become so
> ubiquitous that it doesn't even enter people's minds anymore as
> advertising is sports franchise licenses.
> Titles like "NHL Hockey", "Madden Football", "NBA Jams", "NFL '97",
> "Bulls VS whoever". Think about it - these are all paid advertisments
> for sports franchises. Do the licenses add anything to gameplay other
> than "realism"? Do people get offended that they're purchasing a product
> that's such a well integrated advertisment that even the product name
> itself reflects the franchise being pushed. Does it reduce the price of
> the product? (for those who haven't priced one of these products lately,
> they definetely are NOT any cheaper than the "nameless" competition).
I don't see these as adverts. I am probably wrong but I don't. If the
game included sideline advertising hordings for real life products I
would regard that as advertising. I think the difference is that the
game name defines the arena that the game is set in and therefore the
choice of teams, players etc. I suppose a game called "MacDonalds Burger
Bar" simulating the running of a fast food restaurant would not be
advertising by my definition, however unlikely this seems. Even to me!
Bruce Godden
Keith M. Lucas
In article <33E7A7...@post1.tele.dk>, Peter <pet...@post1.tele.dk> wrote:
>Mark Henderson wrote:
>
>What Maxis games seem to suffer from (and 99% of US citizens along with
>them) is called etnocentrism. No easy cure has been found yet.
>(And I don't think American Culture is a 100% bad thing. They just take
>it for granted, as if every other place was like the USA)
>
It's because it's so big. There are huge cities where you can have a
thousand miles of the USA in all directions. In Europe, a thousand
miles from anywhere includes a dozen countries (who are trying to
become at least two dozen) speaking a dozen languages in a gross of
dialects.
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Phoenix
<== Chris Weiss wrote:
CW> The one really big "advertising" push in videogames that has become so
CW> ubiquitous that it doesn't even enter people's minds anymore as
CW> advertising is sports franchise licenses.
CW> Titles like "NHL Hockey", "Madden Football", "NBA Jams", "NFL '97",
CW> "Bulls VS whoever". Think about it - these are all paid advertisments
CW> for sports franchises.
I'm not american, so I could be off, but for Me the difference is that the nhl
or nba is not a company, not in the sense that mcdonalds is. it doesn't matter
if it legally is - it doesn't *appear* to be.
==>
Howard L. Goode
> >RTFOP! They aren't ads! The companies aren't paying for them.
>
> That makes them free ads. Even worse. If I've got to suffer ads, I
> want them at least contributing to a lower purchase price.
Exactly. Maxis is not being too smart if it offers free product placement.
Likewise, advertisers are not brilliant to ignore such placement; anyone
remember what happened with Reeses Peices and E.T.?
I don't know about other people, but I would refuse to by SC3000 if it
contained ads, free or otherwise. Commercialization of movies is bad
enough.
Chris Hilton
> I would hate to see Maxis start a new trend in product
> placement
> in video games (or has this already happened?). There are too many
> ads in
>
> more.
>
Even if revenue from product placements allowed them to sell the game
for $20? $10? Give it away a la TV?
--
Chris Hilton
`UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things,
because that would also stop you from doing clever things.'
-Doug Gwyn
Brent P. Newhall
RTOP. You'd be able to turn the ads on and off with a master switch.