Stealing Change "In Testing"
Damocles
As of the next update, thieves will no longer be able to steal from
anyone at all unless they're in the thieves' guild. That means
characters flagged in some way (red, grey, etc.) will no longer be
free game for thieves who aren't in the guild.
Yuri Gorlinski
This change should also mean that
detectives/NPKs won't be able to use the
stealing skill to identify guilded thieves
and other perma-flagged characters as
targets... It'll be interesting to see if some
other tactic fills the void here.
And it'll certainly be nice to finally be rid
of noto-thieves.
yg
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Erica Strafford
fighting and he can transfer scrolls to another char to sell). But I heard
that you have to have a certain skill level to be a theif. If this is the
case, and the Theif guildmasters can't teach the minimum skill level needed
to get in, then there won't even BE a thieves' guild!
--
"He may have acted like a young boy when his mother died, but he, himself
died a man."
--
Strafford Labradors
http://www2.crosswinds.net/atlanta/~mocha122/labrador/
Damocles <phae...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:38875171....@news.slnt1.on.wave.home.com...
:
: As of the next update, thieves will no longer be able to steal from
:
Jadesfyre
Yuri Gorlinski <yg...@mojo.calyx.net> wrote in message
news:867rlr$l36$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> phae...@yahoo.com (Damocles) wrote:
> >
> > As of the next update, thieves will no longer be able to steal from
> > anyone at all unless they're in the thieves' guild. That means
> > characters flagged in some way (red, grey, etc.) will no longer be
> > free game for thieves who aren't in the guild.
>
> detectives/NPKs won't be able to use the
> stealing skill to identify guilded thieves
> and other perma-flagged characters as
> targets... It'll be interesting to see if some
> other tactic fills the void here.
>
> And it'll certainly be nice to finally be rid
> of noto-thieves.
>
Oh? I have a thief that targets murderers, thieves and jerks(the antisocial
kewldoods) that like to bother people. I enjoyed the benefits of being able
to
steal from them while they are flagged. That enrages them a bit, enough to
kill me sometimes, giving them a murder count(I wear newbie clothes and
carry nothing). Each murder count means they may become a murderer sooner
than normal, or a murderer would have more counts. They waste their
reagents and time on me and players like me, leaving crafters and newbies
and other nonpvpers alone.
Myself and others like me make them red(or redder) and the antis make them
dead. (Then they can do some macro time)
Ayla (YLA)
Quentin
think they will change stealing from a packhorse or maybe they will. But at
any rate you can still do it. It's just going to take you much longer.
Quentin of Atlantic
Erica Strafford <nos...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:2aLh4.9342$Lv.5...@news1.atl...
> Well, I just decided to make my scribe into a theif (don't need him for
> fighting and he can transfer scrolls to another char to sell). But I heard
> that you have to have a certain skill level to be a theif. If this is the
> case, and the Theif guildmasters can't teach the minimum skill level
needed
> to get in, then there won't even BE a thieves' guild!
>
> --
> "He may have acted like a young boy when his mother died, but he, himself
> died a man."
> --
> Strafford Labradors
> http://www2.crosswinds.net/atlanta/~mocha122/labrador/
> Damocles <phae...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:38875171....@news.slnt1.on.wave.home.com...
> :
> : As of the next update, thieves will no longer be able to steal from
> :
>
>
Sam Woodchopper
I think you misunderstand.... the minimum skill to join is
60. No guildmaster will teach you upto 60. Not even when you
are in the guild. Besides... even if you are not in the
guild you can buy stealing skill training from any NPC that
teaches it.. so I'm rather baffled about your statement.
You can buy skill upto 30-35 and from there train on chests
in town. No big deal.. that's how I raised my skill from 0
(yes I started at zilz) upto 89 where it's "stuck" somehow.
Sam Woodchopper,
http://www.valendor.org
Geoffrey Hyde
doesn't mention NPCs and stealing stuff out of the locked boxes in town -
which you often need detect hidden and lockpicking for - so you can still
raise the skill, just not from players.
Mind you, I'm wondering how one gets into both your player guild and the
thieves guild at the same time? I'm not sure that's possible ...
--
You cannot steal from blues, reds, grays, guild members, or guilds you are
at war with unless you are in the thieves guild. In other words, you cannot
steal from players at all unless you are in the thieves guild.
--
--
Cheers ...
Geoffrey Hyde
--
www.fastinternet.net.au/~ghyde
--
Erica Strafford <nos...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:2aLh4.9342$Lv.5...@news1.atl...
> Well, I just decided to make my scribe into a theif (don't need him for
> fighting and he can transfer scrolls to another char to sell). But I heard
> that you have to have a certain skill level to be a theif. If this is the
> case, and the Theif guildmasters can't teach the minimum skill level
needed
> to get in, then there won't even BE a thieves' guild!
>
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>> And it'll certainly be nice to finally be rid
>> of noto-thieves.
>
>Oh? I have a thief that targets murderers, thieves and jerks(the antisocial
>kewldoods) that like to bother people. I enjoyed the benefits of being able
>to
>steal from them while they are flagged. That enrages them a bit, enough to
>kill me sometimes, giving them a murder count(I wear newbie clothes and
>carry nothing). Each murder count means they may become a murderer sooner
>than normal, or a murderer would have more counts. They waste their
>reagents and time on me and players like me, leaving crafters and newbies
>and other nonpvpers alone.
>Myself and others like me make them red(or redder) and the antis make them
>dead. (Then they can do some macro time)
Don't have too much of a problem with it if you're selective enough
about who you're targetting, but I still don't like the idea of twink
noto-thieves acting as de facto murder count dispensers.
I dealt with some real asshole noto-thieves back when I was running
a red with TWH on Sonoma and they were pure nuisance players, the
sort who'd camp out Buc's bank and do their best to annoy every
single flagged character that passed through. Seemed a bit stupid
and pointless. Bank thieves always pissed me off as a blue, so it
isn't even really a color thing.
I'm sure you're a good deal less twinkish about it on LS. Just one
of those things, I've seen more folks go the hardcore bank-camping
twink route with it, bugging murderers and non-aggressive reds alike,
and the ones that abuse it the most can be pretty damn annoying.
yg
cda...@nospam.vermontel.com
>>
>That is part of it too...
>
>> of noto-thieves.
>>
>
even if they hit the thief first. If a thief is trying to steal from
you, you should be free to hit them and stay blue to him and everyone
else, and if he hits back he should go grey to everyone. and when he
kills you as the notos often do. he should go red for having killed
you while stealing.
This would force thiefs to act like thiefs. and with the way the
guards routines have been very very flaky lately. would help with
the notos who are the real problem. Bascially the NoTO thiefs are
harrassing other players. its pure harrassment and shoudl get 1
warning and then the account should be banned, its bad for the game
and bad for OSI and bad for everyones except thier own enjoyment of
the game.
A friend was getting harrassed the other night. she finally blew and
swung at the idiot, of course its what he and his cronies wanted,
so when i moved to heal her, and then my other friends moved to do it
as well. It really pissed the asshole off. We couldnt do what
should be allowed, ie help her kill a criminal who was attacking
her, because he was blue to us, and if we swung at this thief
attacking an honest citizen we would become grey and his cronie notos
would have joined in attacking us. and the damn guard routines were
not working for crap that night.
No just take out the incentive to force PvP on people, make the
thieving more like well thieving. if a thief steals somethign he
should be headed out to fence the item, run away. if he stays around
he should be a stupid thief , and a dead thief. without any
reprecussion to those that make him so.
Chuck
Katherine
>yes, no one should ever turn grey to a thief who stole from them,
>even if they hit the thief first. If a thief is trying to steal from
>you, you should be free to hit them and stay blue to him and everyone
>else, and if he hits back he should go grey to everyone. and when he
>kills you as the notos often do. he should go red for having killed
>you while stealing.
[snippage]
I partially disagree--I think everyone should be allowed to defend
themselves if someone attacks them, without getting flagged for it.
What might be nice would be if the thief flagged gray to anyone who
witnessed the theft, as well as to the victim--so even if the guards
didn't show up, those around could react.
Katherine, Adept Healer
Ciaran, Lia Fail Empire (Atlantic)
Lambda
<5jqf8sgaapegf3fdi...@4ax.com> in
rec.games.computer.ultima.online :
> It's how Guilds stock their Vendors
> cheaply: They have a couple of mages join Magician/Alchemist Guilds
> respectively and make shop runs 1-2 nights a week.
Was the discount for being in NPC guilds fixed? I never noticed that.
--
Lambda | Ultra Discreet Underground Secret Society
http://insipid.cjb.net | member #000001 - 000...@uduss.cjb.net
lam...@insipid.cjb.net | http://www.uduss.cjb.net
_________________________________________________________________________
-<insert quotation here>
cda...@nospam.vermontel.com
>
>I partially disagree--I think everyone should be allowed to defend
>themselves if someone attacks them, without getting flagged for it.
>
He could still defend himself, nothing wrong with that. but the
intent would be to changed from initiating a noto pk session. to
getting away. ie what a theif should be doing if hes noticed in a
public place, RUN AWAY AND ESCAPE. And you should get flagged if
you kill him because, well you did murder him, even if he struck
first because you were committng a crime and he was defending himself.
>What might be nice would be if the thief flagged gray to anyone who
>witnessed the theft, as well as to the victim--so even if the guards
>didn't show up, those around could react.
Yes, and the other player should stay blue. by hitting the theif
you basiclly yelling thief help. and those around you shouldnt be
left unwilling to join in because they may open themselves to the
other notos hanging around.
Chuckl
Katherine
>>I partially disagree--I think everyone should be allowed to defend
>>themselves if someone attacks them, without getting flagged for it.
>
>He could still defend himself, nothing wrong with that. but the
>intent would be to changed from initiating a noto pk session. to
>getting away. ie what a theif should be doing if hes noticed in a
>public place, RUN AWAY AND ESCAPE. And you should get flagged if
>you kill him because, well you did murder him, even if he struck
>first because you were committng a crime and he was defending himself.
To make sure I'm following--you're saying that if someone steals from
you, then he's allowed to defend himself if you attack him while he's
gray--but he gets a murder count if he kills you? Would it work the
same for someone who went gray for polymorphing, or looting a friend's
corpse for him?
>>What might be nice would be if the thief flagged gray to anyone who
>>witnessed the theft, as well as to the victim--so even if the guards
>>didn't show up, those around could react.
>
>Yes, and the other player should stay blue. by hitting the theif
>you basiclly yelling thief help. and those around you shouldnt be
>left unwilling to join in because they may open themselves to the
>other notos hanging around.
I think anyone who attacks someone should flag gray to the person
they're attacking; I feel anyone should be allowed to defend
themselves. But if the thief flags gray to witnesses, they won't go
grey for attacking him (that's why noto-PKing is such a big hit,
because notos can attack a gray without getting flagged themselves).
Geoffrey Hyde
flagging/grey flagged' are they talking about the criminal grey flag, or the
aggressor grey flag?
There are two kinds of 'grey' - they should have made them different colors
right from the time that they were introduced!
--
Cheers ...
Geoffrey Hyde
--
www.fastinternet.net.au/~ghyde
--
Katherine <ka...@mhn.org> wrote in message
news:38928573...@news-server.nc.rr.com...
cda...@nospam.vermontel.com
>To make sure I'm following--you're saying that if someone steals from
>you, then he's allowed to defend himself if you attack him while he's
>gray--but he gets a murder count if he kills you? Would it work the
>same for someone who went gray for polymorphing, or looting a friend's
>corpse for him?
>
your awlays allowed to defend your self its just that, there should
be no way for a theif to kill someone he tried to steal from and get
away without a murder count.
and no it shouldnt work that way for looting a buds corpse. of
course you should be able to name friends who can loot you.
polymorphing well, i mostly see it used in noto pking. no sympathy
for anything that would make that harder.
>I think anyone who attacks someone should flag gray to the person
>they're attacking; I feel anyone should be allowed to defend
>themselves. But if the thief flags gray to witnesses, they won't go
>grey for attacking him (that's why noto-PKing is such a big hit,
>because notos can attack a gray without getting flagged themselves).
>
yes and they try to get people flagged grey. so inorder to basically
make noto harder, because its basically harrasment of other players.
as to defending themselves, no one is stopping the theif from
defending himself. they would just be making it so that the theif
would nolonger get a free ride to a kill. The current system has
basically rresulted in players being very hesitant to do anything
about thieving. But i dont see how a player is kept from defending
himself if his victim doesnt turn grey to him. i guess if a thief
turned grey when swinging back that might do it.
whats funny is that the current rules mean that a member of the
thieves guide can not commit murder, but the game rules basically
allow them to do just that. This shows that osi has some knowledge
of the noto thieves as a problem, just hasnt taken the bull by the
horns to really fix it.
Chuck
Quaestor
> make the thieving more like well thieving.
Agreed. First offense, cut off a hand. Second offense, game over.
Marc Bissonnette
phae...@yahoo.com says...
>
>
>As of the next update, thieves will no longer be able to steal from
>anyone at all unless they're in the thieves' guild. That means
>characters flagged in some way (red, grey, etc.) will no longer be
>free game for thieves who aren't in the guild.
Well, as much as I hate thieves (And to my kknowledge, I've been stolen from
once, which I promptly guard-whacked him for), that's just plain silly. I
mean, suppose you were a thief IRL (or even in a fantasy setting), is there
som magical barrier surrounding all people that is mysteriously lifted because
you pay 500gp to a guild?
If anything, a non-guild thief caught stealing should be flagged grey to all
thieves guild members as free to steal from or to kill, just like it used to
be in medievil times...
--
----------------------------
Marc Bissonnette
InternAlysis
Intelligence in Internet Communications
http://www.internalysis.com
Richard Cortese
news:jbYi4.7535$RY1.2...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> In article <38875171....@news.slnt1.on.wave.home.com>,
> phae...@yahoo.com says...
> >
> >
> >As of the next update, thieves will no longer be able to steal from
> >anyone at all unless they're in the thieves' guild. That means
> >characters flagged in some way (red, grey, etc.) will no longer be
> >free game for thieves who aren't in the guild.
>
> Well, as much as I hate thieves (And to my kknowledge, I've been stolen
from
> once, which I promptly guard-whacked him for), that's just plain silly. I
> mean, suppose you were a thief IRL (or even in a fantasy setting), is
there
> som magical barrier surrounding all people that is mysteriously lifted
because
> you pay 500gp to a guild?
>
> If anything, a non-guild thief caught stealing should be flagged grey to
all
> thieves guild members as free to steal from or to kill, just like it used
to
> be in medievil times...
Thieving within UO falls under the same general class as things like the
noto system. If the game was played by mature people without any serious
character flaws, there would not be a problem.
Only had contact with about 3 thieves over the last week. Two of them, Slim
Shady on Baja and something like "Gruff the Goat" on SP just started
insulting tirades and name calling w/o provocation. They stayed within the
bounds of the TOS, but they are not in the game to be thieves so much as
jerks, they enjoy it. Since the tirades were completely OOC, they can't use
the excuse they were RPing a thief, they are real life jerks.
Tried my best to get a murder count on Slim, but he wasn't perma flagged and
never left the guard area.
Adam Russell
Quaestor <Range...@Skara.Brae> wrote in message
news:388C079C...@Skara.Brae...
> cda...@nospam.vermontel.com wrote:
>
> > make the thieving more like well thieving.
>
> Agreed. First offense, cut off a hand. Second offense, game over.
"Cut off a hand"??? Geez, where do you live -- the middle ages?
rattran
townthieves/noto's on SP. I'm always amused when one of them comes up
to my tradesman and starts insulting him, fake attacking 'Elmer [evil]
is atacking you!' and other bothersome things. Usually I ignore them,
sometimes I laugh in character and offer to teach them a useful skill,
like mining :)
Quaestor
/me notes the "fantasy" genre and looks wise
Adam Russell
Quaestor <Range...@Skara.Brae> wrote in message
I never heard of a fantasy world that was that cruel. What book did you see
*that* in?
rattran
fantasy genre.
Suppose we do a more civilized thing to thieves, brand their
foreheads, then throw them in macro prison until they die? Too harsh?
How about implementing a 'steal counter' with the same count/delays as
murder. After going 'deepgrey' 5 times, the pingpong sets you perma
grey. And not just until you die. A careful thief could stay blue by
rationing their thefts. A stupid/greedy one would soon find himself
shunned by the towns and polite society.
Nothing quite like the thief you see in town every day, who's stolen
from you personally several times, and completely safe from you.
-Detlef Sierck on LS and SP [PAG]
Adam Russell
attack by pc or npc? Not insta-kill, but enough of a beating to force them
to run or die?
rattran <rat...@ren.faire.net> wrote in message
news:v8uNODfON54jET...@4ax.com...
rattran
appeared blue except when forensic'd, then went grey to everyone once
revealed it might work. Unable to transact with merchants while grey
or revealed deepgrey. Give the revealing a timer based on forensic
skill.
Thieves? Any comments? How about if this only applied to theft from
non-criminal PC's? Npc's too? It would make thieving more dangerous,
but possibly more accepted by the playerbase.
Anti thieves? (Q I would like your comments as well if I'm not
currently PLONK'd)
(oh, and I hate stealing from players and would rather see the skill
disappear. I realize that's not likely)
-Detlef Sierck on LS and SP [PAG]
BANE
After 5 kills whether we initiate the attack or not, we're suspended from
the thieves guild. I think the system is fine how it is.
I just think its great how people keep coming up with penalties without ever
knowing what it's like to walk in the shoes of the people it effects.
The game has gotten a lot tougher for those of us on the wrong side of the
law.news:3yKPOOSrvwwZJP...@4ax.com...
Austin
>As it is right now we can't call the guards if attacked or stolen from.
That's incorrect
>After 5 kills whether we initiate the attack or not, we're suspended from
>the thieves guild.
That's incorrect too.
> I think the system is fine how it is.
>I just think its great how people keep coming up with penalties without ever
>knowing what it's like to walk in the shoes of the people it effects.
You don't seem to know either.
>The game has gotten a lot tougher for those of us on the wrong side of the
>law.
Not tough enough.
Quaestor
> the thieves guild. I think the system is fine how it is.
Being able to simply take what someone else worked for has its attractions for
those who lack the willingness to do any work, lack the guts to face any little
bit of risk, and lack the nerve or worth to be a part of society. Of COURSE you
believe things are just fine.
> I just think its great how people keep coming up with penalties without ever
> knowing what it's like to walk in the shoes of the people it effects.
I don't have to walk in shoes to understand that you are one of the parts of the
game that Shouldn't be. You are a mistake that should never have been put in,
and should be taken out. No one but you and certain %$#@ at OS wants you here,
and the game would be vastly better if you were not.
In your sick way I suppose you enjoy having that said about you.
> The game has gotten a lot tougher for those of us on the wrong side of the
> law.
Not tough enough. You're still here.
Brandy
Quaestor <Range...@Skara.Brae> wrote in message
>
> Being able to simply take what someone else worked for has its attractions
for
> those who lack the willingness to do any work, lack the guts to face any
little
> bit of risk, and lack the nerve or worth to be a part of society. Of
COURSE you
> believe things are just fine.
>
Being able to simply BUY (dragons) what someone else worked for has its
attractions for those who lack the willingness to do any work, lack the guts
to face any little bit of risk, and lack the nerve or worth to be a part of
society. OF COURSE you believe things are just fine.
> I don't have to walk in shoes to understand that you are one of the parts
of the
> game that Shouldn't be. You are a mistake that should never have been put
in,
> and should be taken out. No one but you and certain %$#@ at OS wants you
here,
> and the game would be vastly better if you were not.
>
I don't have to walk in shoes to understand that you are one of the parts
of the
game that Shouldn't be. You are a mistake that should never have been put
in,
and should be taken out. No one but you and certain %$#@ at OS wants you
here, and the game would be vastly better if you were not.
Brandy (WE, LS)
corvato
> of the
> game that Shouldn't be. You are a mistake that should never have been put
> in,
> and should be taken out. No one but you and certain %$#@ at OS wants you
> here, and the game would be vastly better if you were not.
>
> Brandy (WE, LS)
>
Brandy, you know what a RPG is? Most fantasy/midevil RPG ever put out has
some sort of theif Brandy, on the other hand, thinks its fun to go to buc's
den and kill NPCs all day. Oh, and get killed by GC/TSO :p
Thiefs make the game more exciting, entertaining, and yes, it pisses you
off, but hey, if i didn't get pissed off once in awhile, i wouldn't play the
game, isn't it fun to get pissed off once in awhile?
Yuri Gorlinski
>
> Brandy, you know what a RPG is? Most fantasy/midevil RPG ever put out has
> some sort of theif Brandy, on the other hand, thinks its fun to go to buc's
> den and kill NPCs all day. Oh, and get killed by GC/TSO :p
>
> Thiefs make the game more exciting, entertaining, and yes, it pisses you
> off, but hey, if i didn't get pissed off once in awhile, i wouldn't play the
> game, isn't it fun to get pissed off once in awhile?
This is what I hate about usenet. No
matter what you say, no matter how clearly
you attempt to say it, it's pretty much a
given that some illiterate moron is going to
come along and completely misinterpret
the entire thing.
Corvato, if you knew how to read, you'd
understand that in the passage you were
responding to, Brandy was in fact
defending the right to play thief characters
in UO. She was using Quaestor's own
language to attack Q's character of choice
(the twink tamer) using the same logic that
he had utilized in saying that nobody
should be allowed to play thieves...
Do you understand the message now? Do
you get it? Do you realize how ironic your
misunderstanding was? Do you promise to
learn to read before attempting to criticize
another post in this forum?
yg
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dundee
> Brandy, you know what a RPG is? Most fantasy/midevil RPG ever put out has
> some sort of theif
And in real RPGs, those thieves don't steal from the other players, or they
don't get invited back.
Well, except in sophomoric and fairly idiotic 8th grade D&D games. Which are
still a step up from the startrek hatemonster episode that is a typical UO
session.
> Thiefs make the game more exciting, entertaining, and yes, it pisses you
> off, but hey, if i didn't get pissed off once in awhile, i wouldn't play the
> game, isn't it fun to get pissed off once in awhile?
Nope, that's why its called "pissed off" instead of "having fun".
Oh, and you might want to actually read Brandy's post. You might discover
she wasn't writing anything about thieves one way or the other, but instead
was flaming Q.
Brandy
corvato <c...@vat.com> wrote in message
news:EBFl4.291$Z4.2...@news.corpcomm.net...
>
> Brandy, you know what a RPG is? Most fantasy/midevil RPG ever put out has
buc's
> den and kill NPCs all day. Oh, and get killed by GC/TSO :p
>
> off, but hey, if i didn't get pissed off once in awhile, i wouldn't play
the
> game, isn't it fun to get pissed off once in awhile?
>
>
Hey I was talking about Q's cheesy dragons, which he can't tame himself.
Ever since they put in the thieves guild patch that got rid of the
irritating ATLisDOWN type of thief, I think it is balanced enough.
Go flame Quaestor, he is the one ranting about thieves.
GC/TSO is long gone from LS. Used to have some good fights with them, most
of the chaos thats left won't leave town :(
Brandy (WE, LS)
Richard Cortese
news:clDl4.1489$Ux3....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> Quaestor <Range...@Skara.Brae> wrote in message
> news:3896F4A7...@Skara.Brae...
>
> >
> > Being able to simply take what someone else worked for has its
attractions
> for
> > those who lack the willingness to do any work, lack the guts to face any
> little
> > bit of risk, and lack the nerve or worth to be a part of society. Of
> COURSE you
> > believe things are just fine.
> >
>
>
> Being able to simply BUY (dragons) what someone else worked for has its
> attractions for those who lack the willingness to do any work, lack the
guts
> to face any little bit of risk, and lack the nerve or worth to be a part
of
> society. OF COURSE you believe things are just fine.
A thief needs nothing to pursue his trade. Death robe is fine, membership in
the thieves guild is a one time expense. You can't lose, ever. Worst you
ever do thieving is a tie, you end up with what you started with and so does
your target. Ocassionally you are caught/killed outside of a guard zone or
gray with something that you have previously stolen, but that is just a cost
of doing business.
On the other hand, the cost of a dragon is non refundable should you screw
up. I get the feeling that you are Corwin would like to demonstrate that
fact to Q. But kill a thief 1000 times and all you have done is blow gold on
reagents and equipment at the cost of improving a thiefs magic resistance.
Brandy
Richard Cortese <rico...@netmagic.net> wrote in message
news:s9ekckd...@corp.supernews.com...
Now that everything in a house is locked down or secure, which takes the
most profitable thing away from a pvp thief (stealing house key and rune and
looting houses), a pvp thief really can't make that much gold.
Dragons OTOH are a money machine in pvm and highly unbalancing to pvp. It
shouldn't take any more than a couple hours in a dungeon with a dragon to
pay for the cost of it. Besides which, anyone that has played the game for
any length of time has more gold than they know what to do with.
I have no problem with tamers that have spent the 200 skill points necessary
to tame and control dragons, nightmares etc. (well actually I think it
should be more like 400 points needed since most tamers are also mages but
thats another topic). But cheesing it by macroing up Lore and not having
the taming required is just, well, cheesy.
I think twink tamers are a LOT more unbalancing to the game than thieves,
since the thieves guild change.
Brandy (WE, LS)
Richard Cortese
> Now that everything in a house is locked down or secure, which takes the
> most profitable thing away from a pvp thief (stealing house key and rune
and
> looting houses), a pvp thief really can't make that much gold.
escorting, they make less money then before, but still get twice as much as
a GM mage can make.
As far as PvP thieving goes, you really don't have to be that successful to
be that successful. If you play 3 hours a night, that still gives you ~180
shots at stealing something and getting away with it.
I mean if you lose 179 times and get guard whacked, you are out exactly
ZERO. If in that one time you succeed you happen to get some boat master
keys someone is sticking in their bank box or a weapon of vanquishing or
power, you just made as much as most people make.
>
> Dragons OTOH are a money machine in pvm and highly unbalancing to pvp. It
> shouldn't take any more than a couple hours in a dungeon with a dragon to
> pay for the cost of it. Besides which, anyone that has played the game
for
> any length of time has more gold than they know what to do with.
Once again, I just don't see the herds of PK tamers everyone seems to
complain about. I mean if only 1 person out of the 8 thousand on a shard are
using dragons to PK/fight with, I wouldn't exactly classify this as a
chronic problem.
Can you give me say 5 names of people that use dragons for fighting? I don't
count Q as one since he doesn't PvP a lot if he has a choice.
Like I have said, went back to Baja after the TC changed, spent a week of
nights in dungeons and hardly ran into a soul let alone a tamer with a
dragon. I never saw a single dragon in town being used for a fight.
>
> I have no problem with tamers that have spent the 200 skill points
necessary
> to tame and control dragons, nightmares etc. (well actually I think it
> should be more like 400 points needed since most tamers are also mages but
> thats another topic). But cheesing it by macroing up Lore and not having
> the taming required is just, well, cheesy.
I would prefer it was the old system with only taming being required. But
under the old system where you could get by with ~60 taming I never saw the
kind of problems with dragons you describe.
>
> I think twink tamers are a LOT more unbalancing to the game than thieves,
> since the thieves guild change.
Yes, but you completely missed the target. 5-10 bank thieves spending 24/7
at every bank in the game was unbalancing. One or two tamers that are
resticted in where they can bring their dragons by terrain is not
unbalancing.
For instance, I have only seen two tamed dragons in Wind in the 2+ years I
have been playing, and one of them was mine that I had just tamed and was
getting out of there ASAP. Why? Because the place is lousy with high level
mages that are experts at killing dragons and the whole place is a death
trap for them.
If I as a tamer have to accept there are places I just can't go, why is it
you as a warrior/mage insist you must dominate every square inch of the
land? You are just asking for 100% dominance everywhere and in every
situation in the game which is kind of self centered.
Brandy
> Brandy <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:f%Il4.2127$Ux3....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > Now that everything in a house is locked down or secure, which takes the
> > most profitable thing away from a pvp thief (stealing house key and rune
> and
> > looting houses), a pvp thief really can't make that much gold.
> PvSeekers and PvNobles is just as good as ever. With the delays in
> escorting, they make less money then before, but still get twice as much
as
> a GM mage can make.
>
Yes they are profitable, and so are dungeon and town chests but I am talking
about pvp stealing.
> As far as PvP thieving goes, you really don't have to be that successful
to
> be that successful. If you play 3 hours a night, that still gives you ~180
> shots at stealing something and getting away with it.
>
> I mean if you lose 179 times and get guard whacked, you are out exactly
> ZERO. If in that one time you succeed you happen to get some boat master
> keys someone is sticking in their bank box or a weapon of vanquishing or
> power, you just made as much as most people make.
> >
You need to get pretty lucky to be able to grab something like that, I doubt
thats anything that would happen even weekly, let alone daily.
> > Dragons OTOH are a money machine in pvm and highly unbalancing to pvp.
It
> > shouldn't take any more than a couple hours in a dungeon with a dragon
to
> > pay for the cost of it. Besides which, anyone that has played the game
> for
> > any length of time has more gold than they know what to do with.
> Once again, I just don't see the herds of PK tamers everyone seems to
> complain about. I mean if only 1 person out of the 8 thousand on a shard
are
> using dragons to PK/fight with, I wouldn't exactly classify this as a
> chronic problem.
>
> Can you give me say 5 names of people that use dragons for fighting? I
don't
> count Q as one since he doesn't PvP a lot if he has a choice.
>
Tamers WE have fought just in the last month (on LS) include THEBEAR, King
Mendalbar (both switch from order to chaos stones as desired and we have
fought them and their pets several times), Redkillers tamer character
(guildwar we are in), a twink tamer named RePo (chaos) and some twink loser
that was hanging at the xroads with a wyrm taunting people to go gray.
There were a couple others, but those come immediately to mind.
If you played on SP, you would see even more dragons/wyrms used in "PvP".
Q doesn't PvP at ALL., I have never ever seen him fight other than casting
magic arrow. Seriously. Even when I attacked his dragon one day, going
gray in the process and becoming a free kill for him, he just gated the
dragon away.
> Like I have said, went back to Baja after the TC changed, spent a week of
> nights in dungeons and hardly ran into a soul let alone a tamer with a
> dragon. I never saw a single dragon in town being used for a fight.
> >
> > I have no problem with tamers that have spent the 200 skill points
> necessary
> > to tame and control dragons, nightmares etc. (well actually I think it
> > should be more like 400 points needed since most tamers are also mages
but
> > thats another topic). But cheesing it by macroing up Lore and not
having
> > the taming required is just, well, cheesy.
> I would prefer it was the old system with only taming being required. But
> under the old system where you could get by with ~60 taming I never saw
the
> kind of problems with dragons you describe.
> >
> > I think twink tamers are a LOT more unbalancing to the game than
thieves,
> > since the thieves guild change.
> Yes, but you completely missed the target. 5-10 bank thieves spending 24/7
> at every bank in the game was unbalancing. One or two tamers that are
> resticted in where they can bring their dragons by terrain is not
> unbalancing.
>
One or two tamers bringing 2 or more dragons each to a "pvp" fight is highly
unbalancing.
Agreed about the bank thieves, but that was fixed.
> For instance, I have only seen two tamed dragons in Wind in the 2+ years I
> have been playing, and one of them was mine that I had just tamed and was
> getting out of there ASAP. Why? Because the place is lousy with high level
> mages that are experts at killing dragons and the whole place is a death
> trap for them.
>
> If I as a tamer have to accept there are places I just can't go, why is it
> you as a warrior/mage insist you must dominate every square inch of the
> land? You are just asking for 100% dominance everywhere and in every
> situation in the game which is kind of self centered.
>
>
Not asking for that at all, just asking for the twinks that can't actually
tame dragons/nightmares/wyrms to not be able to control them or even own
them.
Brandy (WE, LS)
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>Once again, I just don't see the herds of PK tamers everyone seems to
>complain about. I mean if only 1 person out of the 8 thousand on a shard are
>using dragons to PK/fight with, I wouldn't exactly classify this as a
>chronic problem.
The ridiculous dragon imbalance causes more problems in formal
PvPing than it does in the traditional PK circles. Reds can't control
dragons, so they're more apt to use wyrms, grizzly bears, or whatever
else might be convenient. And taming isn't even all that common in
PKing to begin with, though I think it's on the rise, and will continue
to rise until OSI addresses some of the exploits and imbalances involved
with follow speed, damage, and all of that.
In Order/Chaos battles and other types of guildwar, that's where the
dragons come out. I usually see them in Trinsic, oddly enough. Buc's
is also popular. As Chaos I fought Order guilds with dragons on Sonoma,
and as Order I've fought Chaos guilds with dragons on LS. And on SP we
were seeing them so often from the antis that pretty much all of the
major PK guilds started building or recruiting tamers so that they could
throw some dragons back in the other direction. They're completely
devastating, capable of shattering a hardened squad in seconds. In
towns where magic is nerfed they're pretty much unstoppable, you just
have to hope you can lead 'em out of town or get a lucky guard-whacking
or something.
In PvP, dragons are the equivalent of tactical nukes, except that
most guilds who have them lack the discretion not to use them to a
fault. Fortunately, most guilds don't have them, but those that do
tend to abuse the hell out of it. It's one of the single largest PvP
imbalances in the game.
>Yes, but you completely missed the target. 5-10 bank thieves spending 24/7
>at every bank in the game was unbalancing. One or two tamers that are
>resticted in where they can bring their dragons by terrain is not
>unbalancing.
You've obviously never seen a couple of dragons tear through a squad
of gimps in the middle of Trinsic. It's not a pretty sight, and it's
about as unbalanced as PvP gets in UO.
It doesn't have the same sort of global impact as the old school
swarms of bank thieves because not everyone in UO PvPs, it's a
significantly less common pastime than hanging out at the bank.
And only a limited percentage of this limited pool is lame enough
to twink people with dragons, so you don't see it as often, or
rather you don't see it at all, but I can assure you that those of
us who do see it can attest to how ridiculously imbalanced it is.
>If I as a tamer have to accept there are places I just can't go, why is it
>you as a warrior/mage insist you must dominate every square inch of the
>land? You are just asking for 100% dominance everywhere and in every
>situation in the game which is kind of self centered.
Not really sure what any of that has to do with it. The point is
that dragons hit so hard and fast that, when used, they completely
wreck PvP for nearly everyone unfortunate enough to be caught in the
general vincinity.
yg
Richard Cortese
> > I mean if you lose 179 times and get guard whacked, you are out exactly
> > ZERO. If in that one time you succeed you happen to get some boat master
> > keys someone is sticking in their bank box or a weapon of vanquishing or
> > power, you just made as much as most people make.
> > >
>
> You need to get pretty lucky to be able to grab something like that, I
doubt
> thats anything that would happen even weekly, let alone daily.
would think.
>
> > > Dragons OTOH are a money machine in pvm and highly unbalancing to pvp.
> It
> > > shouldn't take any more than a couple hours in a dungeon with a dragon
> to
> > > pay for the cost of it. Besides which, anyone that has played the
game
> > for
> > > any length of time has more gold than they know what to do with.
> > complain about. I mean if only 1 person out of the 8 thousand on a shard
> are
> > using dragons to PK/fight with, I wouldn't exactly classify this as a
> > chronic problem.
> >
> don't
> > count Q as one since he doesn't PvP a lot if he has a choice.
> >
>
> Tamers WE have fought just in the last month (on LS) include THEBEAR, King
> Mendalbar (both switch from order to chaos stones as desired and we have
side you are on, hard to tell if order are the good guys or chaos are the
good guys.
You didn't say how the fight turned out which is what pertains to the
current debate. Your position is the dragons are completely upsetting the
PvP balance and function as gold button.
My position is they are mostly irrelevant to PvP and only function as a gold
button when the actual tamer uses them. The tamer's cost for the dragon is
mostly an investment in time and healing reagents since it can take anywhere
from 20 minutes to 3 hours to tame a dragon. Making 8k gold in an hour after
taking an hour to tame a dragon reduces the profit per hour in the equation.
If a tamer loses their dragon, they just get another, but an AL dewd has to
buy another lizard which offsets the profits. This balances out the lack of
time a the AL dewd spends aquiring their dragon.
> fought them and their pets several times), Redkillers tamer character
> (guildwar we are in), a twink tamer named RePo (chaos) and some twink
loser
> that was hanging at the xroads with a wyrm taunting people to go gray.
> There were a couple others, but those come immediately to mind.
OK, problem with noto system and weak animal lore enhancement.
As of last week my characters were still bugged, fire breathers attacking
when I cast gate. I seem to be the only one in the game with bugged pets,
but I certainly wouldn't run a stat loss red tamer. Maybe a stat loss red
animal lore dewd.
>
> If you played on SP, you would see even more dragons/wyrms used in "PvP".
SP is a special case, granted tamers rule there because of several factors,
but this takes us back to the same argument I make about frequency/number of
areas where you have to be dominate. You have one shard in 20 where tamers
are the toughest thing going for PvP and money making, if you got your wish,
it would be zero in 20. Do you really need for every shard and every area to
be subordinate to your choice of what character you think should dominate
play? For instance, I could say tamers should dominate 20 out of 20 shards,
but would it be valid?
>
> Q doesn't PvP at ALL., I have never ever seen him fight other than casting
> magic arrow. Seriously. Even when I attacked his dragon one day, going
> gray in the process and becoming a free kill for him, he just gated the
> dragon away.
I've dwelled a bit on some of the choices he made for his character,
KOP/gate is probably a smart choice under the circumstances. In order to
raise his characters ability it dispell EVs to save his dragon, he has kind
of left himself open to being targetted directly by the EV himself. I never
leave home w/o two EV scrolls.
> > If I as a tamer have to accept there are places I just can't go, why is
it
> > you as a warrior/mage insist you must dominate every square inch of the
> > land? You are just asking for 100% dominance everywhere and in every
> > situation in the game which is kind of self centered.
> >
> >
>
> Not asking for that at all, just asking for the twinks that can't actually
> tame dragons/nightmares/wyrms to not be able to control them or even own
> them.
I would be happy with no ability to transfer dragons if they got rid of
animal lore. I don't think I will get my wish. But then I would be happy if
my pets would just stop attacking me.
Richard Cortese
news:877tqc$huk$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> rico...@netmagic.net wrote:
> In Order/Chaos battles and other types of guildwar, that's where the
> dragons come out. I usually see them in Trinsic, oddly enough. Buc's
> is also popular. As Chaos I fought Order guilds with dragons on Sonoma,
> and as Order I've fought Chaos guilds with dragons on LS. And on SP we
> were seeing them so often from the antis that pretty much all of the
> major PK guilds started building or recruiting tamers so that they could
> throw some dragons back in the other direction. They're completely
> devastating, capable of shattering a hardened squad in seconds. In
> towns where magic is nerfed they're pretty much unstoppable, you just
> have to hope you can lead 'em out of town or get a lucky guard-whacking
> or something.
off and on by my fire breathers. I would never use a dragon in a town fight
because of their tendancy to cast mass curse and get me guard whacked. I
stopped using 2 dragons at once even outside of town at least a year ago
since one of them invariably would cast mass curse and they would end up
fighting each other to the death.
But I guess there are people who just don't care. They seem to be in the
minority.
>
> In PvP, dragons are the equivalent of tactical nukes, except that
> most guilds who have them lack the discretion not to use them to a
> fault. Fortunately, most guilds don't have them, but those that do
> tend to abuse the hell out of it. It's one of the single largest PvP
> imbalances in the game.
I still fall back on; they can't be used everywhere. The teleporting thing
really has to be fixed so you have a chance of out running a tamed dragon vs
having it land on top of you from the other side of the screen.
>
> >Yes, but you completely missed the target. 5-10 bank thieves spending
24/7
> >at every bank in the game was unbalancing. One or two tamers that are
> >resticted in where they can bring their dragons by terrain is not
> >unbalancing.
>
> You've obviously never seen a couple of dragons tear through a squad
> of gimps in the middle of Trinsic. It's not a pretty sight, and it's
> about as unbalanced as PvP gets in UO.
That is the point. You are right, I have not seen a couple of dragons tear
through a squad of players anywhere in the game, ever. Occasionally I will
see a dragon rip a solo player a new bunghole, but I have never seen a fight
where a dragon could not be countered by walking away. I mean you don't even
have to run, you just have to walk. Once the dragon follows the player that
is 'briskly' walking away, they are not in the fight.
Of course now with the latest client you can't walk 'briskly', so that
should be fixed along with teleporting pets.
> >If I as a tamer have to accept there are places I just can't go, why is
it
> >you as a warrior/mage insist you must dominate every square inch of the
> >land? You are just asking for 100% dominance everywhere and in every
> >situation in the game which is kind of self centered.
>
> Not really sure what any of that has to do with it. The point is
> that dragons hit so hard and fast that, when used, they completely
> wreck PvP for nearly everyone unfortunate enough to be caught in the
> general vincinity.
I have had about a dozen dragons and drakes killed out from under me. It
really isn't all that tough. Just have who ever is targetted by the dragon
walk away. If the tamer gets the dragon back under control, just have the
same guy cast a spell like poison to get it to follow him again. Soon as he
leads it a few blocks away it is out of the fight. I have never killed
someones pet dragon, but almost every player or group of players that have
killed mine use this technique to a fault. I would imagine something like a
wand of harming would even be good for this. Dragons seem to move off twice
as fast as they come back, so eventually they get drug off to be killed.
Of course this won't work on the roof of the Trinsic bank which is what I
mean by you can't dominate every square inch of the game. Just choose not to
go those places. I wouldn't want to do a home/tower invasion where the owner
had a pet dragon either.
Brandy
It does, but those two jump other peoples stones, often one is order while
the other is chaos and they actively blue heal each other and each others
pets.
> You didn't say how the fight turned out which is what pertains to the
> current debate. Your position is the dragons are completely upsetting the
> PvP balance and function as gold button.
>
In town, its pretty tough unless you can immediately dispatch the tamer (who
usually is in a crowd of other opponents) and get the dragon(s) out of town
ASAP. Out of town, of course, our track record is much better. In either
case, those of us with slower connections often die to the creatures. Wyrms
especially, since they have the ability to teleport across the screen,
whereas dragons are slower.
> My position is they are mostly irrelevant to PvP and only function as a
gold
> button when the actual tamer uses them. The tamer's cost for the dragon is
> mostly an investment in time and healing reagents since it can take
anywhere
> from 20 minutes to 3 hours to tame a dragon. Making 8k gold in an hour
after
> taking an hour to tame a dragon reduces the profit per hour in the
equation.
>
They are only irrelevant to PVP if you don't PVP. You may not be seeing the
growing rise of tamers/twinks in active PVP on your shard, but I sure see it
here. When I first became order, there was one O/C guild on the shard that
had a tamer, now there are several.
As far as gold per hour goes, it seems to be comparable to other professions
such as smithing, carpentry, etc. I have no problem with someone who has
put in the time and effort to get 95+ taming and high lore using their pets
for pvm. What I am dead set against is the newbie tamer with macroed up
lore being able to use the same gold faucet. As it is currently, its the
only skill that you can consistently directly reap the benefits of without
taking similar amount of time and effort to reach high level as others using
the skill. I find that highly unbalancing.
Well since I am a warrior, it really made little sense for him to do that.
> > > If I as a tamer have to accept there are places I just can't go, why
is
> it
> > > you as a warrior/mage insist you must dominate every square inch of
the
> > > land? You are just asking for 100% dominance everywhere and in every
> > > situation in the game which is kind of self centered.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Not asking for that at all, just asking for the twinks that can't
actually
> > tame dragons/nightmares/wyrms to not be able to control them or even own
> > them.
> I would be happy with no ability to transfer dragons if they got rid of
> animal lore. I don't think I will get my wish. But then I would be happy
if
> my pets would just stop attacking me.
>
>
Heh you might be a special case, I have yet to see a dragon turn on its
owner in PvP which is about the only time I see them in action.
But since you are speaking of dominance, I have a fairly capable mage/tamer
that I will finish off when I get to it. She has GM magery, resist, EI,
meditation, 90s wrestling and animal lore, and 80s taming. Even without the
taming and lore, she is a force to be reckoned with in PVP as is any mage.
Of course the lack of a weapon skill, makes her a group fighter rather than
a dueler, but most O/C is group fighting. Given that most people think that
mages are overpowered already in PvP, don't you think that having just 200
skill points invested in taming is a bit ridiculous? A high powered PvP
mage really doesn't have to give up much to be a tamer, I am thinking that
400 points would be more realistic and would force some type of character
limiting decisions to be made.
Brandy (WE, LS)
Brandy
> > > You didn't say how the fight turned out which is what pertains to the
> > > current debate. Your position is the dragons are completely upsetting
> the
> > > PvP balance and function as gold button.
> > >
> >
> > In town, its pretty tough unless you can immediately dispatch the tamer
> (who
> > usually is in a crowd of other opponents) and get the dragon(s) out of
> town
> > ASAP. Out of town, of course, our track record is much better. In
either
> > case, those of us with slower connections often die to the creatures.
> Wyrms
> > especially, since they have the ability to teleport across the screen,
> > whereas dragons are slower.
> meant you had to either get rid of the dragon or get rid of the tamer,
then
> continue minus a few people that were so lagged they died which means they
> probably couldn't have helped anyway.
> >
Not quite. My average ping is 200ms on a dialup and usually if I am
targetted by a dragon I am toast. I can fight gimps, I can fight mages, I
can't outrun dragons usually, even on a lag-free (for me) night. I NEVER
can outrun wyrms, they teleport across the screen.
As far as being able to "help" goes, we rarely run into a lone tamer w/pets.
They are generally in a crowd of other opponents which is where my "help"
comes in. I let (if possible) one of the LPBs get the dragon away and work
on killing the tamer or his buddies.
> > > My position is they are mostly irrelevant to PvP and only function as
a
> > gold
> > > button when the actual tamer uses them. The tamer's cost for the
dragon
> is
> > > mostly an investment in time and healing reagents since it can take
> > anywhere
> > > from 20 minutes to 3 hours to tame a dragon. Making 8k gold in an hour
> > after
> > > taking an hour to tame a dragon reduces the profit per hour in the
> > equation.
> > >
> >
> > They are only irrelevant to PVP if you don't PVP. You may not be seeing
> the
> > growing rise of tamers/twinks in active PVP on your shard, but I sure
see
> it
> > here. When I first became order, there was one O/C guild on the shard
> that
> > had a tamer, now there are several.
> Yes, but I am still kind of underwhelmed by the current threat level. I
PvP
> weekly if not daily, just not part of the pimp/ho wars.
>
But thats where they are turning up, in greater and greater numbers.
> Basically most people are ~ saying "At some future date it may become a
> problem". By the time that happens you will have your anti dragon routine
> down and it won't matter.
>
I see it as a problem now, due to the speed of those suckers. Sure we have
the routine down but like I said, if I get targetted by the tamer I usually
die. Just slowing them down a bit would make a huge difference.
> The exception is SP of course, but that is still only one shard in 20 =>
5%
> of the shards have a problem with people using dragons for PvP. Doesn't
that
> sound kind of like a trivial problem? Like it doesn't effect 95% of the
> people in the game since they don't play on that shard and not problem 1/2
> of the ones on SP since they do things other then PvP? So there are maybe
> 1.25% of the people in the game using dragons for PvP and 1.25% of the
> people who have dragons used against them that find it unfair.
>
> If by the time enough people realize the advantage OSI has patched
> teleporting pets and client side lag, it will never be a problem. Fat
> chance, but I can wish.
> >
> > As far as gold per hour goes, it seems to be comparable to other
> professions
> > such as smithing, carpentry, etc. I have no problem with someone who
has
> > put in the time and effort to get 95+ taming and high lore using their
> pets
> > for pvm. What I am dead set against is the newbie tamer with macroed up
> > lore being able to use the same gold faucet. As it is currently, its
the
> > only skill that you can consistently directly reap the benefits of
without
> > taking similar amount of time and effort to reach high level as others
> using
> > the skill. I find that highly unbalancing.
> Funny how we both think animal lore was a mistake, just for reasons that
are
> 180 degrees apart.
>
> I know EI, Meditation, Anatomy, explosion, were all mistakes that
unbalanced
> the game. What they did was unbalance the game grossly in favor of PvP
> characters over non PvP, even my own. I was pretty much shouted down when
I
> brought that up, even had Josh Koster calling me names.
>
But you are talking about anti vs pk fights aren't you, when you refer to
PvP vs nonPvP characters? If you aren't, I am unclear what you are talking
about. A good warrior character is a good warrior character in PvM as well
as PvP, as is a good mage character. I can go toe to toe with any
melee-able monster in the game.
> You can't have everything, you can't win every time. If you want to
squeeze
> out that last 1.25% it is being kind of extreme.
> > Heh you might be a special case, I have yet to see a dragon turn on its
> > owner in PvP which is about the only time I see them in action.
> Not just dragons, anything that breathes fire. Not only that, I hired a
NPC
> fighter to work on my healing skill and got attacked. It is at least 1 in
> five that go bad on me. Only thing that seems to help is to stable them
for
> about a week.
>
> My reformed dread still gets "Hurt me not, surely you would not kill me if
I
> do not know the answer". They haven't been negative noto since the patch.
>
> Same kind of stuff happened to my TC characters. When I ran one up to GM
> ranger there, I died more from my own dragons then any other cause. It
isn't
> just Baja.
>
> My Hokuto tamer is just about to the hell cat stage, I may do it there to
> see if I am jinxed everywhere.
> >
> > But since you are speaking of dominance, I have a fairly capable
> mage/tamer
> > that I will finish off when I get to it. She has GM magery, resist, EI,
> > meditation, 90s wrestling and animal lore, and 80s taming. Even without
> the
> > taming and lore, she is a force to be reckoned with in PVP as is any
mage.
> I have seen the future: Some day, everyone will have a twink animal
lorist.
> No sense in fighting it, you can not resist the force. There well be more
> tame dragons in cities taking part in PvP then there ever were in the
wild.
> >
Ugh, well I refuse on general principle to twink. Been tempted a few times
but I really *hate* that its even possible, so I am sticking to my guns on
that issue.
Of course the lack of a weapon skill, makes her a group fighter rather
> than
> > a dueler, but most O/C is group fighting. Given that most people think
> that
> > mages are overpowered already in PvP, don't you think that having just
200
> Nobody thinks mages are overpowered in town. My scribe is a gimp in town
for
> the same reasons. Get's picked on, can't exactly start tossing ebolts or
> summoning daemons. But get that dex monkey town fighter in a place like
the
> hedge maze and they are toast. Balance, they own the towns, my mage owns
the
> burbs.
Its hard to fight as a dexer in a place like the hedge maze with all the
teleporting around. Give me a nice open area out of town though and your
mage is toast. In fact I prefer fighting mages to fighting other gimps
anyday.
Myself, I think pvp is fairly well balanced between mages and warriors at
the moment. But posts crop up here all the time saying how powerful mages
are compared to warriors, so I know I am in the minority in that opinion.
I used the mage as Order for a while. Even without a weapon skill she never
died in town. I would just recall if attacked, summon 2 daemons and gate
back. Killed a lot of gimps that way.
> > skill points invested in taming is a bit ridiculous? A high powered PvP
> > mage really doesn't have to give up much to be a tamer, I am thinking
that
> > 400 points would be more realistic and would force some type of
character
> > limiting decisions to be made.
> I think they should lower the floor rather then raise the roof. Either
> nobody gets more then 500 points of PvP skills or no trade should take
more
> then 100 points to master.
>
But taming isn't just a trade, just as magery isn't just a trade. Both can
be used as trades by people that never PvP, but both are also PvP skills. I
just don't see why a mage character that is by definition, one of the most
powerful characters in the game already, should be able to trade off *only*
weapon and tactics skills to be able to control the most powerful pets in
the game. To be balanced with other PvP character types, I should have to
make the decision to give up resist or EI or meditation as well, if I want
to be a tamer.
> Trust me, my tamer was getting rocked, I have had to completely rebuild
them
> losing everything that made them unique. Things like hiding, tailoring,
> tracking are all but a memory now. I am still pissed off about it. I even
> had 40 animal lore from ~January 1998 because I actually used it! Can't do
> that anymore, got to get that animal lore up to be able to function as a
> tamer and resist up for those EI meditat'n mages. Forget anatomy, I will
> just give away a 20% damage advantage to everyone else in the game, I
don't
> have room for it.
>
Yes they reduced the number of viable character types for those that don't
full time pvp significantly between the weapons patch, EI/med patch, and
lore patch. But they actually made more PvP character types possible with
the same patches. Every PvPer on the shard used to be a archer/mage before
they made the changes.
> It is the Dundee paradox: Why does it cost as much from the skill cap for
a
> skill like tracking as it does for magery? Who would you bet on in a
fight,
> GM mage or GM tracker?
>
Agreed, but I don't see them fixing that problem anytime soon, if ever.
> But the easiest solution would be to just have dragons refuse to fight in
> guild wars. I wouldn't miss it and I don't care about the 2 people that
are
> doing it now.
>
>
OSI? Do something the easy way?
*laughs*
Brandy (WE, LS)
Richard Cortese
> > I know EI, Meditation, Anatomy, explosion, were all mistakes that
> unbalanced
> > the game. What they did was unbalance the game grossly in favor of PvP
> > characters over non PvP, even my own. I was pretty much shouted down
when
> I
> > brought that up, even had Josh Koster calling me names.
> >
>
> But you are talking about anti vs pk fights aren't you, when you refer to
> PvP vs nonPvP characters? If you aren't, I am unclear what you are
talking
fighting.
In regards to the former, it was within one week of the explosion patch, I
took out one of my son's characters on Pacific<he got another account so his
original characters are still on my account>. Character was something like
master warrior/mage, expert resist, just under 80 hit points. Blue PK
waiting in Covetous until a gazer stripped resist. My sons character with me
driving killed the gazer and healed up fully. After about 5 fizzles trying
to cast explosion the PK finnally got it off and the follow up ebolt. The
two spells killed the character faster then I could drink a GH. Wasn't
really prepared, son's character, otherwise I would have drank a GS to get a
little more head room, but the point was the first strike which was always a
huge advantage was just made better.
So to me, since it was a character with over 70 resist and every freaking
asshole in the game was doing EI on the town criers it was my animal lore,
the explosion was my dragon. Not a single person in the group supported me,
every one of you gave the same line about it the way things were supposed to
be or was silent.
Now I am telling you, dragons are pets, you can command pets to guard you,
you can command pets to kill, so deal with it. It isn't broken, it is
working exactly the way it is supposed to work with the exception of the
teleporting thing and that needs to be fixed. Just get your own dragon and
the next day you will have nothing to bitch about. I on the other hand will
still be at a 200 point disadvantage to any one of your PvP characters.
If it is a problem with money, just let me know and I will give it to you. I
think I still have about 100k on LS and the characters are in danger of
being deleted from non use.
At least in my case, I was advocating taking out the changes where a couple
of jerks could screw things up for dozens of people a night. In your case,
as far as the people bringing dragons to the pimp/ho wars are concerned, it
isn't broken, it is working the way it is supposed to. There is also nothing
wrong or impossible with you bringing your own dragon to the same fights,
parity. I on the other hand find it impossible to have master magery, EI,
meditation, anatomy, animal lore, taming, tactics, maces, wrestling, resist.
It just doesn't add up and is an unfair 200 point penalty I suffer every
time I take my tamer out.
I submit the complete lack of players in dungeons I have seen lately as well
as the number of cheap shots we have heard about support my posistion.
Almost every cheap shot artist hangs out in areas where there are loads of
magic using monsters like the undead city in t2a: This has harmed the game.
What made the game fun for pimp/ho wars made it miserable for everyone
outside of the wars except PKs. I have as much right to demand EI, anatomy,
and meditation are removed from the game then you have to ask that dragons
be taken out.
> about. A good warrior character is a good warrior character in PvM as
well
> as PvP, as is a good mage character. I can go toe to toe with any
> melee-able monster in the game.
No, because you don't think like a PK. PK sees the taming spam => knows I
don't have more then 500 points in fighting skills if that many => knows I
have something I am trying to tame in last target vs them. PK has me in a
last target with a killer spell combo in a macro while I have things like
[use skill taming, last target] in mine. Taming unprepares you for a first
strike. My tamer was not even a good PvM character, 70 maces and almost no
resist. I had ranger type stuff on them like tracking vs resist. They did
fine 1 on 1 PvP until PvP characters all got juiced.
Brandy
> > > I know EI, Meditation, Anatomy, explosion, were all mistakes that
> > unbalanced
> > > the game. What they did was unbalance the game grossly in favor of PvP
> > > characters over non PvP, even my own. I was pretty much shouted down
> when
> > I
> > > brought that up, even had Josh Koster calling me names.
> > >
> >
> > But you are talking about anti vs pk fights aren't you, when you refer
to
> > PvP vs nonPvP characters? If you aren't, I am unclear what you are
> talking
> fighting.
>
> In regards to the former, it was within one week of the explosion patch, I
> took out one of my son's characters on Pacific<he got another account so
his
> original characters are still on my account>. Character was something like
> master warrior/mage, expert resist, just under 80 hit points. Blue PK
> waiting in Covetous until a gazer stripped resist. My sons character with
me
> driving killed the gazer and healed up fully. After about 5 fizzles trying
> to cast explosion the PK finnally got it off and the follow up ebolt. The
> two spells killed the character faster then I could drink a GH. Wasn't
> really prepared, son's character, otherwise I would have drank a GS to get
a
> little more head room, but the point was the first strike which was always
a
> huge advantage was just made better.
>
Sounds like the spells each did max damage if he was fizzing them. An
unlucky break for you, but still not typical.
> So to me, since it was a character with over 70 resist and every freaking
> asshole in the game was doing EI on the town criers it was my animal lore,
> the explosion was my dragon. Not a single person in the group supported
me,
> every one of you gave the same line about it the way things were supposed
to
> be or was silent.
>
The way it stands now, the dragon is supposed to be your weapon/tactics
skill, not your EI/magery.
> Now I am telling you, dragons are pets, you can command pets to guard
you,
> you can command pets to kill, so deal with it. It isn't broken, it is
> working exactly the way it is supposed to work with the exception of the
> teleporting thing and that needs to be fixed. Just get your own dragon and
> the next day you will have nothing to bitch about. I on the other hand
will
> still be at a 200 point disadvantage to any one of your PvP characters.
>
I do PvP because I like PvP. If I still enjoyed killing dragons (at one
time I did), I would go do that instead and I wouldn't be using a warrior
character to do it. A twink tamer with 4 dragons in tow, rattling off "a
kill, b kill" etc is not PvP.
I do think using dragons is a valid defense against PKing, the problem is,
how do you code to remove them from consentual PvP and not from
non-consentual PvP?
> If it is a problem with money, just let me know and I will give it to you.
I
> think I still have about 100k on LS and the characters are in danger of
> being deleted from non use.
>
heh money hasn't been a problem for the last two years :)
> At least in my case, I was advocating taking out the changes where a
couple
> of jerks could screw things up for dozens of people a night. In your case,
> as far as the people bringing dragons to the pimp/ho wars are concerned,
it
> isn't broken, it is working the way it is supposed to. There is also
nothing
> wrong or impossible with you bringing your own dragon to the same fights,
> parity. I on the other hand find it impossible to have master magery, EI,
> meditation, anatomy, animal lore, taming, tactics, maces, wrestling,
resist.
> It just doesn't add up and is an unfair 200 point penalty I suffer every
> time I take my tamer out.
>
I found PvP as a mage to be dull. I much prefer being a warrior. I doubt
that I would enjoy using dragons in PvP.
Again, the dragon is your weapon, you don't need maces, anatomy or tactics.
My mage/tamer can kill every monster in the game without pets. She can also
kill PKs with ease. The only handicap she has is against full time PvP
characters, since she lacks a weapon skill.
> I submit the complete lack of players in dungeons I have seen lately as
well
> as the number of cheap shots we have heard about support my posistion.
> Almost every cheap shot artist hangs out in areas where there are loads of
> magic using monsters like the undead city in t2a: This has harmed the
game.
>
> What made the game fun for pimp/ho wars made it miserable for everyone
> outside of the wars except PKs. I have as much right to demand EI,
anatomy,
> and meditation are removed from the game then you have to ask that dragons
> be taken out.
> > about. A good warrior character is a good warrior character in PvM as
> well
> > as PvP, as is a good mage character. I can go toe to toe with any
> > melee-able monster in the game.
> No, because you don't think like a PK. PK sees the taming spam => knows I
> don't have more then 500 points in fighting skills if that many => knows I
> have something I am trying to tame in last target vs them. PK has me in a
> last target with a killer spell combo in a macro while I have things like
> [use skill taming, last target] in mine. Taming unprepares you for a
first
> strike. My tamer was not even a good PvM character, 70 maces and almost no
> resist. I had ranger type stuff on them like tracking vs resist. They did
> fine 1 on 1 PvP until PvP characters all got juiced.
>
>
With master or GM Resist, killer spell combos just don't happen from a lone
stat loss PK. From a group, sure. From an opportunist blue, definitely
possible. But if a group of reds sweeps a dungeon, you are likely to die no
matter what your skills are if you are alone. And I don't see a lot of blue
pking anymore.
The patches forced people to optimize rather than generalize to be good at
either PvP or PvM. I know from reading your posts that isn't the playstyle
you prefer. Personally, I think it was a good thing. It got rid of the
idiot "mages" in full plate, marked the beginning of the end for the tank
thief, made it possible for mages to kill high power monsters without
*having* to blade or EV them, and made weapon skills (except archery) viable
in PvP.
Brandy (WE, LS)
Quaestor
> Now I am telling you, dragons are pets, you can command pets to guard you,
> you can command pets to kill, so deal with it. It isn't broken, it is working
> exactly the way it is supposed to work with the exception of the teleporting
> thing and that needs to be fixed.
The "teleporting thing" IS a fix. Pets and escorts are supposed to be able to
follow. Since it was too much work to make them able to follow with total
animation and zipping around obstacles, they put in a "catch up" thing that
makes them catch up when they get too far behind. The only "fix" for
"teleporting" is to give all the animation and maneuvering necessary to make
them catch up without seeming to teleport. That still will not let you run away
when you could not run away.
And on a few occasions (more often than not) where my pets have attacked me
(mass curse is such a wonderful enhancement to the game) I HAVE run away
successfully. It's not like this is a killer feature.
> Just get your own dragon and the next day you will have nothing to bitch
> about. I on the other hand will
> still be at a 200 point disadvantage to any one of your PvP characters.
:-) That's because tH3y r0X, U $u><! Hey, no excuses allowed. If you do not
stand and fight, kill the jerks, you are a l00Z3r. This is what happens when
you allow them to make the rules.
> At least in my case, I was advocating taking out the changes where a couple of
> jerks could screw things up for dozens of people a night. In your case, as far
> as the people bringing dragons to the pimp/ho wars are concerned, it isn't
> broken, it is working the way it is supposed to.
Yabut if it doesn't benefit the jerk, it $硯. Everything is an exploit to those
who don't use it.
> There is also nothing wrong or impossible with you bringing your own dragon to
> the same fights, parity.
Well, there IS a certain degree of impossibility to it. Taming is tough. It
takes work. Not everyone is capable of that. And without a lot of Taming now
you just do not control dragons. To the pk (and this includes certain parties)
this is no more possible than learning to think for themselves.
> I on the other hand find it impossible to have master magery, EI, meditation,
> anatomy, animal lore, taming, tactics, maces, wrestling, resist. It just
> doesn't add up and is an unfair 200 point penalty I suffer every time I take
> my tamer out.
This "necessary" wimping of tamers is made necessary by the existance of
involuntary pvp in the game, mixed with the complaint that everyone was a
tankmage. Allow enough skill points so a tamer can defend himself and his pets
and those who do not do taming will have the points to all be Tankmages again.
And (I guess) there is something wrong with that. The kids got their way, being
allowed to play "pure" fighters (master mages who use sword instead of magic to
pk), and "pure" mages (master fighters who use magic to pk), instead of having
to face those who use weapons and magic to pk. Thus we cannot have "pure"
tamers who can defend themselves (and we certainly cannot have pets capable of
defending themselves or they would rule), therefore tamers have to be wimps.
> I submit the complete lack of players in dungeons I have seen lately
It does seem pretty rediculous.
> as well as the number of cheap shots we have heard about support my posistion.
> Almost every cheap shot artist hangs out in areas where there are loads of
> magic using monsters like the undead city in t2a: This has harmed the game.
Such notos are the first to use abusive language and accuse of cheating, being
gay, and having funny socks, about anyone who does not stay and present them
with loot.
> What made the game fun for pimp/ho wars made it miserable for everyone outside
> of the wars except PKs. I have as much right to demand EI, anatomy, and
> meditation are removed from the game then you have to ask that dragons be
> taken out.
What's the point of taking dragons out of the game? Anyone can kill them. Just
have your GM mage toss an EV. What? Can't in town? Well, if you don't like
dragon PVP then STAY OUT OF TOWN! :-)
> No, because you don't think like a PK.
? How can a pk not think like a pk? "See it - kill it - talk dirty!"
The lot of the tamer in UO shows just how badly OS is capable of mismanaging
things. It amplifies every problem of trying to run UOQuake and non-pvp on the
same server. Two kinds of server are needed, and OS just doesn't get it. They
don't want to get it. They never will get it.
Soon (I keep hoping) you and I will be gone, having finally found something
better (that lasts more than a month), leaving the UOQuakers of both the
consentual and non-consentual type killing each other. But that is risky,
fighting someone who can fight, who Cares to fight. They won't like that. They
will come following us, get rebuffed because what makes us pick the new games
we'll go to is that their kind aren't allowed, and end up a bunch of drunks on a
street corner, complaining that there's no one left to kill.
AH but what memories! They gloriously pursued those who did not want to play
their game, gloriously taunted them with filthy language, gloriously killed
those who had no interest in their game, gloriously gloried in the greatness of
themselves, and ...
Brandy
Quaestor <Range...@Skara.Brae> wrote in message
> Richard Cortese wrote:
>
> > Now I am telling you, dragons are pets, you can command pets to guard
you,
> > you can command pets to kill, so deal with it. It isn't broken, it is
working
> > exactly the way it is supposed to work with the exception of the
teleporting
> > thing and that needs to be fixed.
>
> The "teleporting thing" IS a fix. Pets and escorts are supposed to be
able to
> follow. Since it was too much work to make them able to follow with total
> animation and zipping around obstacles, they put in a "catch up" thing
that
> makes them catch up when they get too far behind. The only "fix" for
> "teleporting" is to give all the animation and maneuvering necessary to
make
> them catch up without seeming to teleport. That still will not let you
run away
> when you could not run away.
>
> And on a few occasions (more often than not) where my pets have attacked
me
> (mass curse is such a wonderful enhancement to the game) I HAVE run away
> successfully. It's not like this is a killer feature.
>
Preach on Mr. DSL. So you are saying that you should have an advantage in
the game based upon where you live.
>
> > Just get your own dragon and the next day you will have nothing to bitch
> > about. I on the other hand will
> > still be at a 200 point disadvantage to any one of your PvP characters.
>
> :-) That's because tH3y r0X, U $u><! Hey, no excuses allowed. If you
do not
> stand and fight, kill the jerks, you are a l00Z3r. This is what happens
when
> you allow them to make the rules.
>
>
Bzzt, wrong answer. Nobody cares if you fight or run, just don't go
bragging about facing down said jerks when all you ever do is run.
> > At least in my case, I was advocating taking out the changes where a
couple of
> > jerks could screw things up for dozens of people a night. In your case,
as far
> > as the people bringing dragons to the pimp/ho wars are concerned, it
isn't
> > broken, it is working the way it is supposed to.
>
> Yabut if it doesn't benefit the jerk, it $硯. Everything is an exploit to
those
> who don't use it.
>
>
> > There is also nothing wrong or impossible with you bringing your own
dragon to
> > the same fights, parity.
>
> Well, there IS a certain degree of impossibility to it. Taming is tough.
It
> takes work. Not everyone is capable of that. And without a lot of Taming
now
> you just do not control dragons. To the pk (and this includes certain
parties)
> this is no more possible than learning to think for themselves.
>
My tamer is in the 80s with 90s lore. More than enough to twink dragons if
I so desired. Guess what Q, I believe in earning stuff the hard way, not
twinking it like you do.
>
> > I on the other hand find it impossible to have master magery, EI,
meditation,
> > anatomy, animal lore, taming, tactics, maces, wrestling, resist. It just
> > doesn't add up and is an unfair 200 point penalty I suffer every time I
take
> > my tamer out.
>
> This "necessary" wimping of tamers is made necessary by the existance of
> involuntary pvp in the game, mixed with the complaint that everyone was a
> tankmage. Allow enough skill points so a tamer can defend himself and his
pets
> and those who do not do taming will have the points to all be Tankmages
again.
> And (I guess) there is something wrong with that. The kids got their way,
being
> allowed to play "pure" fighters (master mages who use sword instead of
magic to
> pk), and "pure" mages (master fighters who use magic to pk), instead of
having
> to face those who use weapons and magic to pk. Thus we cannot have "pure"
> tamers who can defend themselves (and we certainly cannot have pets
capable of
> defending themselves or they would rule), therefore tamers have to be
wimps.
>
Tamers don't have to be wimps. Just because you lack the knowledge and/or
the ability to build a tamer that isn't one, there is no need to generalize.
>
> > I submit the complete lack of players in dungeons I have seen lately
>
> It does seem pretty rediculous.
>
>
> > as well as the number of cheap shots we have heard about support my
posistion.
> > Almost every cheap shot artist hangs out in areas where there are loads
of
> > magic using monsters like the undead city in t2a: This has harmed the
game.
>
> Such notos are the first to use abusive language and accuse of cheating,
being
> gay, and having funny socks, about anyone who does not stay and present
them
> with loot.
>
>
> > What made the game fun for pimp/ho wars made it miserable for everyone
outside
> > of the wars except PKs. I have as much right to demand EI, anatomy, and
> > meditation are removed from the game then you have to ask that dragons
be
> > taken out.
>
> What's the point of taking dragons out of the game? Anyone can kill them.
Just
> have your GM mage toss an EV. What? Can't in town? Well, if you don't
like
> dragon PVP then STAY OUT OF TOWN! :-)
>
>
I prefer to fight out of town.
> > No, because you don't think like a PK.
>
> ? How can a pk not think like a pk? "See it - kill it - talk dirty!"
>
> The lot of the tamer in UO shows just how badly OS is capable of
mismanaging
> things. It amplifies every problem of trying to run UOQuake and non-pvp
on the
> same server. Two kinds of server are needed, and OS just doesn't get it.
They
> don't want to get it. They never will get it.
>
> Soon (I keep hoping) you and I will be gone, having finally found
something
> better (that lasts more than a month), leaving the UOQuakers of both the
> consentual and non-consentual type killing each other. But that is risky,
> fighting someone who can fight, who Cares to fight. They won't like that.
They
> will come following us, get rebuffed because what makes us pick the new
games
> we'll go to is that their kind aren't allowed, and end up a bunch of
drunks on a
> street corner, complaining that there's no one left to kill.
>
Well, I hope Richard sticks around. I enjoy reading his posts. The sooner
you are gone though, Q, the better. One less whiny liar in the game will
benefit us all.
Nianor
right to be in the game as much as any other archtype created for fantasy
rpgs? Just like murderers? Let me guess, you want OSI to create a perfect
little utopia that simply involves blade spiriting from cliffs?
Your holier than thou attitude is sickening. . . you want OSI to code out
the human factor. If you truly want that, why don't you just go play EQ? For
me, I'll take the game where I can make my choices and suffer for them. If I
decide to hang out in Buc's Den with all my reagents at the root of my pack,
I DESERVE to be robbed!
Sorry. That utopia was never part of RG's vision. The world is dangerous,
and it was meant to be. Don't like thieves? There's scores of FOOLPROOF
methods to avoid them. Try one.
Newbie.
Dundee
> Ever think that thieves are a traditional part of RPGs?
Old, tired, worn-out argument that wasn't good the first time someone used
it, and still isn't any good.
Specifically: It doesn't apply. This isn't a traditional RPG.
> And as such have a
> right to be in the game as much as any other archtype created for fantasy
> rpgs? Just like murderers?
In fact, the presence of PKs and thieves in UO *prevent* it from being a
traditional RPG. They prevent it being a traditional Ultima, as far as that
goes.
If you like the thieving/pking/pvping nature of UO, then bully for you. But
just say that. "I like it like this. I think it's fun. I hope they never
change it."
Then you won't have to embarrass yourself with these seriously flawed
arguments and personal attacks when all you mean to say is, "I like it like
this."
> Let me guess, you want OSI to create a perfect
> little utopia that simply involves blade spiriting from cliffs?
That's not a very good guess.
> Your holier than thou attitude is sickening. . .
I agree. Holier than thou attitudes are bothersome.
> you want OSI to code out the human factor.
I see. If players are not allowed to jerk each other around, then there's no
human factor? Interesting theory.
Just kidding, it's not at all an interesting theory.
I think what you mean to say is, "I like it like this. I think it's fun. If
it weren't like this, I would find the game to be less fun."
But I suppose that's not as enjoyable as trying to fetch up arguments that
turn matters of personal taste into statements of fact.
Are you *seriously* trying to say, "It's more fun like this, and I can prove
it!"?
Because although you may find it more fun, you can't prove it - not any more
than you could prove chocolate icecream tastes better than vanilla icecream.
> If you truly want that, why don't you just go play EQ? For
> me, I'll take the game where I can make my choices and suffer for them.
And you're welcome to it.
> Sorry. That utopia was never part of RG's vision.
Uh huh. So now he's busy at work on a game designed for women "because the
men will come play it anyway" and they're promising non-PvP lands, "because
normal people won't put up with stupid shit like this" (paraphrased, 'natch).
And dare we even examine the other games he's designed. Pick a game, any
game, and explain how that game was but a step towards this, UO, his vision
realized...
I find it hard to believe that Ultima Online resembles in any way RG's
"vision". It has nothing in common with any game he has ever made beyond the
shape of the map.
> Newbie.
Usenet has newbies, too. They do stuff like, for example, changing the
subject line of the message to which they are replying, and then don't quote
ANY of the message they're replying to. So that message you're replying to
is going to scroll off folk's newsreaders (because, unlike web boards, on
usenet the older messages scroll away first) - and they won't know who you're
replying to.
Nianor
"Dundee" <Dun...@SPAMSPAMSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:DAAEE177904E1BC3.AAAAF976...@lp.airnews.net...
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:01:02 -0600, "Nianor" <kbel...@accutype.com> wrote:
>
> > Ever think that thieves are a traditional part of RPGs?
>
> Old, tired, worn-out argument that wasn't good the first time someone used
> it, and still isn't any good.
>
> Specifically: It doesn't apply. This isn't a traditional RPG.
>
Heh. . .my first post to the NG, and I'm honored with a reply from Dundee?
*feels special*
In any case, a tired old argument doesn't mean its a bad one. To be totally
off subject here, whenever someone brings up abortion, I groan internally.
Noone's opinion is probably ever going to change on that subject, and all
you do is get into yelling matches in the end. Its tiresome and bothersome,
but it doesn't mean either side is without its merits. Is UO a standard RPG?
No, of course not. Its an MMORPG. Thousands of people playing the same game
at any one time, ALL with different goals. Are they going to confict?
Damn skippy they are.
All I can tell you is this. To me, UO has always been about choice. Unless
you are totally new to the game, you know there are risks involved with
nearly any action. Taking your miner to the North Brit mines is probably a
bad idea. Hanging out in Deciet with your carpenter trying to sell a black
dye tub is a bad idea. Carrying that Vanq weapon on the root of your pack at
the Brit bank is a bad idea. You want to take risks? Then accept the
consequences of your actions!
> > And as such have a
> > right to be in the game as much as any other archtype created for
fantasy
> > rpgs? Just like murderers?
>
> In fact, the presence of PKs and thieves in UO *prevent* it from being a
> traditional RPG. They prevent it being a traditional Ultima, as far as
that
> goes.
>
> If you like the thieving/pking/pvping nature of UO, then bully for you.
But
> just say that. "I like it like this. I think it's fun. I hope they
never
> change it."
>
Never even had a guilded thief. . . I find thieving boring, I guess. Never
had a murderer either. Do I pvp? Yes, although I'm not very good. All I'm
saying is that to me, theives have just as much of a place in this game as
the tailor. The theif as a whole has generally been nerfed to the point of
uselessness, IMHO.
> Then you won't have to embarrass yourself with these seriously flawed
> arguments and personal attacks when all you mean to say is, "I like it
like
> this."
>
Are they tired arguments or seriously flawed? Difficult to be the same, you
know ;) My point is Qauckster here would rather see thieving coded out
entirely. Thieves are annoying, frustrating and infuriating to deal with-but
do I want them gone? No! Absolutely not! I reserve my right to be a victim!
I reserve my right for struggle within the game! I want things to do other
than macro my next .1 or EV dragons.
> > Let me guess, you want OSI to create a perfect
> > little utopia that simply involves blade spiriting from cliffs?
>
> That's not a very good guess.
>
> > Your holier than thou attitude is sickening. . .
>
> I agree. Holier than thou attitudes are bothersome.
>
> > you want OSI to code out the human factor.
>
> I see. If players are not allowed to jerk each other around, then there's
no
> human factor? Interesting theory.
>
There are a great deal of ways to jerk someone around. . . stealing 30 of
their black pearls because YOU didn't lock a chest is hardly near the top of
the list.
It can be done. . UO was an expirement. . . I think that RG truly thought
people would come online to act out both their virtuous and criminal
natures. . . and that their would be a sort of struggle between the two. But
their are a myriad of reason why that never happened. . .
> I find it hard to believe that Ultima Online resembles in any way RG's
> "vision". It has nothing in common with any game he has ever made beyond
the
> shape of the map.
>
> > Newbie.
>
> Usenet has newbies, too. They do stuff like, for example, changing the
> subject line of the message to which they are replying, and then don't
quote
> ANY of the message they're replying to. So that message you're replying
to
> is going to scroll off folk's newsreaders (because, unlike web boards, on
> usenet the older messages scroll away first) - and they won't know who
you're
> replying to.
>
Point taken. . already got an ICQ about that ;) I stand corrected and shall
mend my ways.
> --
> http://dundee.uong.com/
>
Austin
>
>
>My tamer is in the 80s with 90s lore. More than enough to twink dragons if
>I so desired. Guess what Q, I believe in earning stuff the hard way, not
>twinking it like you do.
>
Very very very wrong. You havent tried controlling dragons lately have
you. If you cant tame em, you cant control em.
Quaestor
> Your holier than thou attitude is sickening. . .
And yours?
Austin
>
>Austin <007...@direct.ca> wrote in message
>news:1SuaOE33hM1FBD...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 03 Feb 2000 19:35:53 GMT, "Brandy" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >My tamer is in the 80s with 90s lore. More than enough to twink dragons
>if
>> >I so desired. Guess what Q, I believe in earning stuff the hard way, not
>> >twinking it like you do.
>> >
>>
>> Very very very wrong. You havent tried controlling dragons lately have
>> you. If you cant tame em, you cant control em.
>>
>>
>
>You can still control dragons with 80-85 taming and gm lore according to
>UTB.
>
>Brandy (WE, LS)
>
At 85 you can "control" them with a bag load of meat to feed them.
Without the meat they go wild in 5 to 10 minutes. They constantly
disobey commands at 85. The still disobey at 95 but the rate is
bearable. And a dragon that wont obey is worthless in PvP
Otara
>and it was meant to be. Don't like thieves? There's scores of FOOLPROOF
>methods to avoid them. Try one.
I will.
Plonk.
I dont really killfile but it was such an irresistible reply.
Otara
Corwin of Amber (WE/LS)
> I NEVER can outrun wyrms, they teleport across the screen.
I actually ran in to a uber-dragon a couple of weeks ago (not a wyrm).
Now I'm a LPB'er (most of the time) and the dang thing could move
nearly as fast as I could gallop. Yeesh ...
Most dragons are as slow as molasses.
Anywho, I don't think they actually "teleport" as you and Yuri insist.
I think they are just blipping across your screens.
Corwin
Greywind
Richard Cortese wrote:
>
> Now I am telling you, dragons are pets, you can command pets to guard you,
> you can command pets to kill, so deal with it. It isn't broken, it is
> working exactly the way it is supposed to work with the exception of the
> teleporting thing and that needs to be fixed. Just get your own dragon and
> the next day you will have nothing to bitch about. I on the other hand will
> still be at a 200 point disadvantage to any one of your PvP characters.
>
> At least in my case, I was advocating taking out the changes where a couple
> of jerks could screw things up for dozens of people a night. In your case,
> as far as the people bringing dragons to the pimp/ho wars are concerned, it
> isn't broken, it is working the way it is supposed to. There is also nothing
> wrong or impossible with you bringing your own dragon to the same fights,
> parity. I on the other hand find it impossible to have master magery, EI,
> meditation, anatomy, animal lore, taming, tactics, maces, wrestling, resist.
> It just doesn't add up and is an unfair 200 point penalty I suffer every
> time I take my tamer out.
>
Tell ya what Richard. I'll take the 200 points animal lore/taming,
and you can have 200 points of anyother skills you want.
I'll tame a dragon, and then see what 200 point combo is the best.
You keep bitching about how unfair it is to tamers and blah
blah blah, and it's getting a tad bit tiring. That dragon
for 200 skill points rocks everything. It will kill virtually
any character in less than 3 seconds. The only defense 1-1
is to run as the pet doesn't get hung up on obtacles.
You wanna know where your pvp skills are?? they're with
your goddamn dragon. I've seen one dragon waste 4-5 people
before they knew what hit them. Granted, the teleporting
bug helps it out ALOT, and should be removed, but if you
have a pet dragon, you shouldn't bitch about unfair pvp.
The dragon is the most unbalancing aspect to pvp right
now and your bitching about how bad you tamers have it??
Corwin of Amber (WE/LS)
>> ANY of the message they're replying to. So that message you're replying
>to
>> is going to scroll off folk's newsreaders (because, unlike web boards, on
>> usenet the older messages scroll away first) - and they won't know who
>you're
>> replying to.
>>
>Point taken. . already got an ICQ about that ;) I stand corrected and shall
>mend my ways.
Welcome to the newsgroup. ;)
I see the natives have already welcomed you in the traditional manner.
*grins*
We do try to avoid the TSO'isms of the Web Boards here on the NG. Keep
in mind everything on the NG is archived at www.deja.com ... and do
you really want your great-grandchildren to know that you once used to
tell other people .... "I RoX U D3wd!!!" ?
Hey Otara - un *PLONK* him --- he didn't know !!!
Corwin
Corwin of Amber (WE/LS)
wrote:
Oh yeah ... you better NOSPAM your email address or you're gonna get a
ton of spam .... *sigh* .... probably too late.
Brandy
Austin <007...@direct.ca> wrote in message
news:1SuaOE33hM1FBD...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2000 19:35:53 GMT, "Brandy" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
if
> >I so desired. Guess what Q, I believe in earning stuff the hard way, not
> >twinking it like you do.
> >
>
Brandy
Corwin of Amber (WE/LS) <cor...@wind.atlantic.com> wrote in message
news:389a1788....@news.clark.net...
> B,
>
> > I NEVER can outrun wyrms, they teleport across the screen.
>
> Now I'm a LPB'er (most of the time) and the dang thing could move
> nearly as fast as I could gallop. Yeesh ...
>
> Most dragons are as slow as molasses.
>
> Anywho, I don't think they actually "teleport" as you and Yuri insist.
> I think they are just blipping across your screens.
>
> Corwin
>
>
Could be. The last wyrm that killed me was off my screen entirely when the
world went black. I wasn't having worse lag than normal either. It's
possible that it is just lag and not teleporting.
Brandy (WE, LS)
Zaphkiel
>Your holier than thou attitude is sickening. . . you want OSI to code out
>the human factor.
No, I want them to code out the sub-human factor. The human
factor can stay.
--Zaphkiel
Otara
Amber (WE/LS)) wrote:
>We do try to avoid the TSO'isms of the Web Boards here on the NG. Keep
>in mind everything on the NG is archived at www.deja.com ... and do
>you really want your great-grandchildren to know that you once used to
>tell other people .... "I RoX U D3wd!!!" ?
>
>Hey Otara - un *PLONK* him --- he didn't know !!!
>
>Corwin
Oh c'mon it was too hard to resist - I should have put more smiley
faces in. I'd have said it even if I agreed with him.
I dont see myself as having the right to tell anyone to really leave
an NG. C'mon IH, roll your eyes.
Otara
Richard Cortese
> The way it stands now, the dragon is supposed to be your weapon/tactics
> skill, not your EI/magery.
do not bring a tamed animal with me, unless I am riding it: That is how
tamers tame. My tamers only get attacked when they are taming. I would be
more then happy if the only time my tamers were attacked is in town while
they had a pet dragon in tow, but that is not the way it is going down.
You are confusing people that macroed animal lore so they can bring a tamed
dragon to a fight with tamers. If the person is not taming, they are not
tamers. If a person can not tame the animal they are using, they are not a
tamer per se. I see people riding horses all the time, I am sure you do too,
but do you think they are tamers? That is the distinction I am making.
AFAIK, the stratics guide is wrong. It isn't 80% of taming and 20% of animal
lore to determine control. Seems like it is the exact opposite for anything
tougher then 50 skill level to tame. I think Q said he had something like
~80 taming which would mean 64+20 or 84 total if he has 100 animal lore and
he seems to do quite well with his lizards.
> The patches forced people to optimize rather than generalize to be good at
> either PvP or PvM. I know from reading your posts that isn't the
playstyle
> you prefer. Personally, I think it was a good thing. It got rid of the
> idiot "mages" in full plate, marked the beginning of the end for the tank
> thief, made it possible for mages to kill high power monsters without
> *having* to blade or EV them, and made weapon skills (except archery)
viable
> in PvP.
For the last year everyone has been posting what it takes to survive/be
decent at PvP, I have never seen one of these add up to 500 or less,
invariably they add up to 700. Personally, I am happy with 600, I have 2
mages, a fisherman, and two warriors that get along just fine at that level,
you never hear me complain about them.
But what the patch did was juice PvP types, this is not even open for
debate, it is a given.
You juice PvP while requiring things like animal lore for tamers, you are
screwing the tamers over relative to the PvP types. By making PvP more
leathal OSI are also screwed over every miner/smith, lumberjack/bowyer,
miner/tinkerer, lumberjack/carpenter in the game.
I acknowledge that PvP should be deadly for guild wars and what not,
otherwise what is the point? But the problem it they juiced one faction
while crippling another.
You kind of have a one dimension to your playstyle IMO. PvP followed by more
PvP to the exclusion many of the other aspects of the game.
But it ends up being a perfect analogy to my situation. I have a tamer(s), I
have never used a dragon in a guild war or to PK. So I say what is the
problem with me having a dragon.
Your problem is there are people that do.
You are in guild wars, you say "I don't PK so what is the problem with me
having GM EI or anatomy?"
My problem is I have run into a dozen or so jerks in the last 3 months that
have either attacked me directly or the animals I am trying to tame or my
tamed pets. I also admit that in every case I came back with one of my antis
and I don't think I did worse then a tie, may have even been a bit ahead
with the extra equipment and reagents.
The differnce is you are directly targetting my characters, saying I should
suffer a 400 point penalty for being a tamer while I am saying, you can keep
your EI and anatomy, just let me have 100 points more to my skill cap so I
can deal with problem players.
The difference is I don't say things like meditation should take up 400
skill points. Your response is a blanket that covers every tamer in the game
because of the actions of a few people.
Once again I will say, only half the people in guild wars are complaining
about dragons, the 1/2 that aren't using dragons. DOH! Looks like a tie vote
to me, just leave me out of it.
Richard Cortese
news:3899CAF0...@Skara.Brae...
>
> > Now I am telling you, dragons are pets, you can command pets to guard
you,
> > you can command pets to kill, so deal with it. It isn't broken, it is
working
> > exactly the way it is supposed to work with the exception of the
teleporting
> > thing and that needs to be fixed.
>
> The "teleporting thing" IS a fix. Pets and escorts are supposed to be
able to
> follow. Since it was too much work to make them able to follow with total
> animation and zipping around obstacles, they put in a "catch up" thing
that
> makes them catch up when they get too far behind. The only "fix" for
> "teleporting" is to give all the animation and maneuvering necessary to
make
> them catch up without seeming to teleport. That still will not let you
run away
> when you could not run away.
I really, really love it, so it has to go. Something that much fun has got
to be illegal. Those hell cats I picked up, they teleport/hit faster then a
harm wand. No animation, no nothing but the cats instantly teleporting to
the target. I have never had an ancient wyrm, but I trust the reports when
people say they are teleporting too. At least with the cats it doesn't make
a difference, but the wyrm thing should be fixed.
>
> And on a few occasions (more often than not) where my pets have attacked
me
> (mass curse is such a wonderful enhancement to the game) I HAVE run away
> successfully. It's not like this is a killer feature.
Typical exchange:
me "all guard" target myself
only pets and yourself can be guarded
me "all follow me"
'me guarded'
me "all follow me"
me "all kill"
nothing
me "all follow me"
get attacked.
> > Just get your own dragon and the next day you will have nothing to bitch
> > about. I on the other hand will
> > still be at a 200 point disadvantage to any one of your PvP characters.
>
> :-) That's because tH3y r0X, U $u><! Hey, no excuses allowed. If you
do not
> stand and fight, kill the jerks, you are a l00Z3r. This is what happens
when
> you allow them to make the rules.
taking a 200 skill point hit, why don't they do it? The other is the parity
part, nothing is stopping them from doing it so it is balanced.
The honestly believe the people that complain about it would rather take a
sharp stick in the eye or painful rectal itch before they would give up 200
points of PvP skills to tame and control a dragon. But then I bitched about
having to lose tracking and tailoring so it is kind of universal. That is
the real problem, not the dragons per se. There is also an unwillingness to
accept any role but the badest bad ass in the land. Too much effort spent on
winning and when the rules of the game mean you don't win in every
situation, change the rules such that you do.
>
> > At least in my case, I was advocating taking out the changes where a
couple of
> > jerks could screw things up for dozens of people a night. In your case,
as far
> > as the people bringing dragons to the pimp/ho wars are concerned, it
isn't
> > broken, it is working the way it is supposed to.
>
> Yabut if it doesn't benefit the jerk, it $硯. Everything is an exploit to
those
> who don't use it.
Naw, everyone here is anti jerk. Just we are often anti each other too. The
problem is everytime we have a jerk being themselves, we penalize 100 times
that many people that are not jerks. I don't regard two tamers using dragons
in guild wars on LS as the end of life as we know it, not enough to penalize
every other tamer in the game anyway.
>
>
> > There is also nothing wrong or impossible with you bringing your own
dragon to
> > the same fights, parity.
>
> Well, there IS a certain degree of impossibility to it. Taming is tough.
It
> takes work. Not everyone is capable of that. And without a lot of Taming
now
> you just do not control dragons. To the pk (and this includes certain
parties)
> this is no more possible than learning to think for themselves.
Got bored taming everything in Despise last night, so switched to taming
everything on Ice Isle. Two of the bigger jerks on Baja and at least one
associated with one of the Moonglow jerk guilds were there working their
taming up.
It does look like their point that things are bad for them now and will only
get worse is valid, I just don't like their solution. Get your own dragon or
no dragons in guild warfare are a better ones IMO. Tamers should have to
take a 400 point skill cap hit is pretty weak IMO. Won't do anything to the
people using dragons in guild war, but with tactics, weapon, wrestling, I
won't be able to recall, that would be freaking great.
BTW: Found a bugged white wolf on Ice Isle. Couldn't be tamed by anyone. I
can only guess that the horse release/taming difficulty spilled over to this
wolf somehow making it >100 difficulty to tame. Kind of cool, I kept
checking to see if it was a polymorphed player!<grin>
> > I on the other hand find it impossible to have master magery, EI,
meditation,
> > anatomy, animal lore, taming, tactics, maces, wrestling, resist. It just
> > doesn't add up and is an unfair 200 point penalty I suffer every time I
take
> > my tamer out.
>
> This "necessary" wimping of tamers is made necessary by the existance of
> involuntary pvp in the game, mixed with the complaint that everyone was a
> tankmage. Allow enough skill points so a tamer can defend himself and his
pets
> and those who do not do taming will have the points to all be Tankmages
again.
> And (I guess) there is something wrong with that. The kids got their way,
being
> allowed to play "pure" fighters (master mages who use sword instead of
magic to
> pk), and "pure" mages (master fighters who use magic to pk), instead of
having
> to face those who use weapons and magic to pk. Thus we cannot have "pure"
> tamers who can defend themselves (and we certainly cannot have pets
capable of
> defending themselves or they would rule), therefore tamers have to be
wimps.
Me too.<sic> But it isn't/wasn't just tamers. I've got nothing against guild
warfare being lethal, but the problem is the changes that were put in to
make guild warfare more varied and leathal made a bad situation, targetting
PvP-, more lethal. Very unbalancing and has contibuted to the game becoming
more "Beruit Online" then ever before.
Of course the people that wanted the game to be "Beruit Online" see the game
as improved. It has for their particular style of play, but it has
eliminated much of the other game style.
I do PvP, 2 on 1 gank and a solo kill this week. Maybe not as much as
someone that is in a guild war, but I like my current level of PvP.
>
>
> > I submit the complete lack of players in dungeons I have seen lately
>
> It does seem pretty rediculous.
The despise taming trip last night was another no show for anyone but my
tamer. I kind of like having the place to myself, but I don't think it is
good for the game. OSI will probably make mongbats poisonous to fix it.
Richard Cortese
>
>
> Richard Cortese wrote:
> >
> > Now I am telling you, dragons are pets, you can command pets to guard
you,
> > you can command pets to kill, so deal with it. It isn't broken, it is
> > working exactly the way it is supposed to work with the exception of the
and
> > the next day you will have nothing to bitch about. I on the other hand
will
> > still be at a 200 point disadvantage to any one of your PvP characters.
> >
couple
> > of jerks could screw things up for dozens of people a night. In your
case,
> > as far as the people bringing dragons to the pimp/ho wars are concerned,
it
nothing
> > wrong or impossible with you bringing your own dragon to the same
fights,
EI,
> > meditation, anatomy, animal lore, taming, tactics, maces, wrestling,
resist.
> > It just doesn't add up and is an unfair 200 point penalty I suffer every
> > time I take my tamer out.
> >
> and you can have 200 points of anyother skills you want.
>
> I'll tame a dragon, and then see what 200 point combo is the best.
We are now up to 6-7 times now. Fine, leave your dragon in the stables like
I do, go to the bottom of covetous and try taming a drake that is
fireballing you while I come up behind you and flame strike you or the still
wild drake and see just how well you get along with your 200 point
disadvantage. You will be helpless in the situation, zero chance of escaping
with anything but your life. I took a murder count last week because of this
very situation, I don't call having to take it in the shorts or murder
count parity.
One more time, you do not have your dragon with you when you are taming! You
are exposed! Where on the other hand, someone with high resist, magery, ei,
... is just as strong everywhere they go! They never have to play the
victim!!!
I spend 90% of my time when I am running my tamers, well taming. 90% of the
time I am an easy target. I don't look for this to change, I got burned out
on killing people on a nightly basis almost 2 years ago now. I have had
enough, killing a person or two a week is fine with me.
Right now, I would just like to tame a bit vs [get resed, log out, get my
anti, take a murder count, call it a night]. It is really getting old fast.
I didn't have these problems on TC when they were using the GL skill curve
and still don't have them on Hokuto.
>
> You keep bitching about how unfair it is to tamers and blah
> blah blah, and it's getting a tad bit tiring. That dragon
I get tired of your reactionary insulting crap everytime someone disagrees
with you too, so what? If you don't like it don't read it.
You and only about 1 or 2 other ignorant people actually read some of my
"feel all warm and fuzzy inside because it had a happy ending" stories as
bitching!
I can't believe some people. There are a dozen responses saying "Way to go!"
"Good work" and you manufacture out of thin air that it is bitching. Read
the writing on the wall, the negativity is in the eye of the beholder. You
chose to read a mix of happy ending stories as nothing but complaints and
bitching, that is your problem and not mine. Don't lay your deamons at my
doorstep.
My negative post are in response vs pre emptive strikes. You might be
suffering from some short term memory loss so here goes.
=========================================================
READ this part very carefully. I am responding to people bitching about
tamed dragons being used in guild wars. I am responding to people saying
tamers need to be nerfed more then they already have. If defending your
chosen game style against attacks is bitching, then I am no more guilty of
it then the people that want warriors to be tougher then tamers in every
situation in the game. Personally I would call it disagreeing with some
hysterical witch hunts.
=========================================================
> for 200 skill points rocks everything. It will kill virtually
> any character in less than 3 seconds. The only defense 1-1
> is to run as the pet doesn't get hung up on obtacles.
Blah blah blah bullshit pure and simple, you don't know jack. What is wrong
with walking away briskly anyway.
How can you reconcile everyone, and I mean everyone, in the newsgroup
bitches about the pitiful monster EI, but suddenly when it comes to another
player with one of these monsters in tow it is, "Mommy mommy mommy! The bad
man is using a super weapon against me and its not fair!" Trust me, the same
dragon that tamer is using is guild war fare is just as stupid as when it
was in a dungeon.
> You wanna know where your pvp skills are?? they're with
> your goddamn dragon. I've seen one dragon waste 4-5 people
> before they knew what hit them. Granted, the teleporting
> bug helps it out ALOT, and should be removed, but if you
> have a pet dragon, you shouldn't bitch about unfair pvp.
> The dragon is the most unbalancing aspect to pvp right
> now and your bitching about how bad you tamers have it??
ibid. It gets too difficult to repeatedly say I don't tame with a dragon in
tow and I don't PK with a dragon.
I am really getting disappointed with the people in the newsgoup. How many
times do I have to say this before you get it? It seems like people are
deliberately chosing to grind an axe vs read what I am saying. Read what I
say before you respond with an off the wall comment that doesn't relate to
what I write, then ack that you are talking about a different situation that
has nothing to do with me. Maybe even change the header.
The changes in newsgroup are tiresome. There was a time when the
participants did everything from ingot head smithing to Dundee taming to
Janey tailoring. The collective total of what is left is mostly a bunch of
self centered personalities that regard anything other killing each other
and the skills required to do so "off topic".
You and not many left in the newsgroup can not concieve of a tamer that like
to tame because they like to tame vs get a dragon to rock someones ass or
tailor who tailors for the sake of tailoring vs buy phat regs for their
macroed mage. It is your collective loss and I pity you for it. You are
certainly not a better person for the change.
Brandy's proposed 400 point requirement for tamers is a good example. You
don't even want my tamers the game. My PvP characters are fine of course,
nothing has to happen to them even though they could kill my tamer in a New
York minute.
Richard Cortese
news:389a1788....@news.clark.net...
> B,
>
>
> Now I'm a LPB'er (most of the time) and the dang thing could move
> nearly as fast as I could gallop. Yeesh ...
>
> Most dragons are as slow as molasses.
>
> Anywho, I don't think they actually "teleport" as you and Yuri insist.
> I think they are just blipping across your screens.
like dragons or bears, but it will happen virtually 100% of the time with
animals like hell cats<the kitty sized ones>. It is like the animation does
not even play, faster then a teleport.
If you know an 80ish tamer that isn't on your kill list, see if you can talk
them into fire dungeon and taming a few cats. I did this with my fast
system/low pings on Baja and definately see nothing but the cats instantly
appear at the target, even from the other side of the screen.
Richard Cortese
> >news:1SuaOE33hM1FBD...@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 03 Feb 2000 19:35:53 GMT, "Brandy" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
dragons
> >if
> >> >I so desired. Guess what Q, I believe in earning stuff the hard way,
not
> >> >twinking it like you do.
> >> >
> >>
> >> you. If you cant tame em, you cant control em.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >You can still control dragons with 80-85 taming and gm lore according to
> >UTB.
> >
> >Brandy (WE, LS)
> >
>
> Without the meat they go wild in 5 to 10 minutes. They constantly
> disobey commands at 85. The still disobey at 95 but the rate is
> bearable. And a dragon that wont obey is worthless in PvP
correct if (85)(.8)+(100)(.2) => 88 combined. But my experience was even
with GM taming but only 80ish animal lore on a TC character the dragons were
uncontrollable. That should have been 96 score or more then enough to
control a dragon. At about the same time, they put in the tamer gates and
people with 94.5 taming 100 animal lore, score 95.6, would have no trouble
controlling dragons I tamed and released. Lore is weighted much more heavily
in the equation then we are led to believe.
Richard Cortese
> > At 85 you can "control" them with a bag load of meat to feed them.
> > Without the meat they go wild in 5 to 10 minutes. They constantly
> > disobey commands at 85. The still disobey at 95 but the rate is
> > bearable. And a dragon that wont obey is worthless in PvP
> Once again, I think it doesn't work the way it is supposed to, since you
are
> correct if (85)(.8)+(100)(.2) => 88 combined. But my experience was even
> with GM taming but only 80ish animal lore on a TC character the dragons
were
> uncontrollable. That should have been 96 score or more then enough to
> control a dragon. At about the same time, they put in the tamer gates and
> people with 94.5 taming 100 animal lore, score 95.6, would have no trouble
> controlling dragons I tamed and released. Lore is weighted much more
heavily
> in the equation then we are led to believe.
drop out when they put advancement gates on TC so I never bothered to check
them for max skill. But if history means anything, in the past TC skill
gates only take you to 94.5 skill level.
Brandy
> > The way it stands now, the dragon is supposed to be your weapon/tactics
> > skill, not your EI/magery.
> do not bring a tamed animal with me, unless I am riding it: That is how
> tamers tame. My tamers only get attacked when they are taming. I would be
> more then happy if the only time my tamers were attacked is in town while
> they had a pet dragon in tow, but that is not the way it is going down.
>
> You are confusing people that macroed animal lore so they can bring a
tamed
> dragon to a fight with tamers. If the person is not taming, they are not
> tamers. If a person can not tame the animal they are using, they are not a
> tamer per se. I see people riding horses all the time, I am sure you do
too,
> but do you think they are tamers? That is the distinction I am making.
>
And that was my original complaint, and the reason I was ragging Q; the
twink tamers.
> AFAIK, the stratics guide is wrong. It isn't 80% of taming and 20% of
animal
> lore to determine control. Seems like it is the exact opposite for
anything
> tougher then 50 skill level to tame. I think Q said he had something like
> ~80 taming which would mean 64+20 or 84 total if he has 100 animal lore
and
> he seems to do quite well with his lizards.
> > The patches forced people to optimize rather than generalize to be good
at
> > either PvP or PvM. I know from reading your posts that isn't the
> playstyle
> > you prefer. Personally, I think it was a good thing. It got rid of the
> > idiot "mages" in full plate, marked the beginning of the end for the
tank
> > thief, made it possible for mages to kill high power monsters without
> > *having* to blade or EV them, and made weapon skills (except archery)
> viable
> > in PvP.
> For the last year everyone has been posting what it takes to survive/be
> decent at PvP, I have never seen one of these add up to 500 or less,
> invariably they add up to 700. Personally, I am happy with 600, I have 2
> mages, a fisherman, and two warriors that get along just fine at that
level,
> you never hear me complain about them.
>
My mules are just that...mules. None of them have any fighting skills. My
fisherman is also my alchemist/scribe. He did get pked once on his boat in
the unattended macroing days but I wasn't there anyway. My carpenter/smith
is a addons mule and therefore has zero room under the cap for fighting
skills. She has NEVER been PKed while out chopping wood (and, no, I don't
chop in town usually). My miner/smith/carpenter on SP has been PKed once
while out mining, and I don't mine in town either. I guess I don't see why
you think that trades characters HAVE to be able to fight or why they suffer
a huge penalty for not fighting.
*shrugs* My tamer can hold her own or escape in a fight without using pets.
She has been attacked twice while out taming, one time she killed the
attacker, the other time the attacker went running to his house when his
initial combo barely put a dent in her health bar.
Never had anyone attack things I was trying to tame yet either. Of course I
am not up to the dragon level yet.
> Once again I will say, only half the people in guild wars are complaining
> about dragons, the 1/2 that aren't using dragons. DOH! Looks like a tie
vote
> to me, just leave me out of it.
>
>
Consentual PvP is consentual PvP, not consentual PvM.
Brandy (WE, LS)
Yuri Gorlinski
> ARRRGGHHH!!!
<snip>
> One more time, you do not have your dragon with you when you are taming! You
> are exposed! Where on the other hand, someone with high resist, magery, ei,
> ... is just as strong everywhere they go! They never have to play the
> victim!!!
So bring your dragon with you when you
go taming, and you won't have to play the
victim either. Your argument here is
ridiculous, a character who has invested
200 points in taming/lore is obviously going
to be at a disadvantage when those points
aren't being used. A tamer without a pet is
going to be at a disadvantage just like a
mage without reagants, or a warrior without
a weapon.
<snip>
> Blah blah blah bullshit pure and simple, you don't know jack. What is wrong
> with walking away briskly anyway.
The point of PvP is fighting, not walking
briskly away. If dragons are spoiling PvP
situations by causing everyone to walk
briskly away rather than fighting, then this
is something which the dev team should
address.
<snip>
> The changes in newsgroup are tiresome. There was a time when the
> participants did everything from ingot head smithing to Dundee taming to
> Janey tailoring. The collective total of what is left is mostly a bunch of
> self centered personalities that regard anything other killing each other
> and the skills required to do so "off topic".
This strikes me as a wildly inaccurate and
unfair assessment of the people who post to
this newsgroup. The group is still much
more varied than you make it out to be, the
PvP folks here still represent a minority of
the group's activity, and I've never once
seen any of us condemn conversation on
non-PvP activities as being off topic.
> You and not many left in the newsgroup can not concieve of a tamer that like
> to tame because they like to tame vs get a dragon to rock someones ass or
> tailor who tailors for the sake of tailoring vs buy phat regs for their
> macroed mage. It is your collective loss and I pity you for it. You are
> certainly not a better person for the change.
Rich, I can understand that you're not
interested in using your tamer to PvP, that's
fine. What I can't understand is how you
can complain about your tamer being
ill-suited for PvP, while simultaneously
claiming that you're not interested in using
him for PvPing.
> Brandy's proposed 400 point requirement for tamers is a good example. You
> don't even want my tamers the game.
Nobody has a problem with your tamer
being in the game, it's the twinks using
dragons for guildwar which are causing
problems.
> My PvP characters are fine of course,
> nothing has to happen to them even though they could kill my tamer in a New
> York minute.
Your PvP characters wouldn't be able to
kill your tamer so easily if your tamer
properly used all of the skills at his
disposal.
yg
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Quaestor
> I am really getting disappointed with the people in the newsgoup. How many
> times do I have to say this before you get it? It seems like people are
> deliberately chosing to grind an axe vs read what I am saying. Read what I
> say before you respond with an off the wall comment that doesn't relate to
> what I write, then ack that you are talking about a different situation that
> has nothing to do with me. Maybe even change the header.
Maybe this is a good time to point out how this is exactly what has been done to
me so much? Having experienced it yourself to the point of upset, even anger,
can you now understand how I have felt?
Yuri Gorlinski
There is one additional point that I'd like
to make here...
Richard Cortese wrote:
>
> Blah blah blah bullshit pure and simple, you don't know jack. What is wrong
> with walking away briskly anyway.
In PvP situations, simply "walking away
briskly" isn't nearly as easy as you make it
out to be. As soon as I'm targetted, the first
fireball hits for about 40-50 damage.
Standard operating procedure is for the
tamer and his buddies to paralyze the
victim as he attempts to escape. Already
at about half health, so all it takes is one
melee attack and maybe another fireball,
and I'm toast.
The lag doesn't make things any easier.
Large battles are always lagfests for those
us cursed with dialup access, and the large
dragon art files and animations further
exacerbate this problem. At times they're
like walking lag generators.
And you've also got to worry about enemy
gimps and their blue friends blocking you
in. Walking away briskly isn't nearly as
easy you make it out to be in these
situations, and even when escape is
possible, the dragon's capacity to deal out
large amounts of damage in just a few
seconds still leads to an enormous
imbalance in virtually any given PvP
situation.
Quaestor
> The despise taming trip last night was another no show for anyone but my
> tamer. I kind of like having the place to myself, but I don't think it is
> good for the game. OSI will probably make mongbats poisonous to fix it.
I regard this current dev team, Jalek excepted, the same as another ames or
filby (spies for russians, in high places in their respective intel agencies) -
in other words, your worst nightmare. They clearly are doing things that are
extremely unpopular with anyone but UOQuakers, and they clearly know the upset
they are causing.
I can only conclude that they believe they are priming us to dump uo and buy
uo2. I for one would not do so at the point of a gun. There's nothing to stop
them taking a couple more years of my labor and money getting ready to start
playing the game, and then wreck That to promote uo3.
But still, nothing better comes along. I'm getting tired of waiting. Maybe
I'll go back to drinking? AND SUE OS FOR THAT! Ha ha hA HA ha Ha ha hA HA ha
Ha ha hA HA ha!
Yuri Gorlinski
>
> Maybe this is a good time to point out how this is exactly what has been done to
> me so much? Having experienced it yourself to the point of upset, even anger,
> can you now understand how I have felt?
Incredible. Every time I think Q's sunk as
low as humanly possible, he finds a way to
make himself look even more pathetic...
Dundee
> In any case, a tired old argument doesn't mean its a bad one.
But I didn't say it's a bad argument *because* it's tired. People use it
over and over, hence my opinion that it's tired.
Still, even it were a brand spanking shiny-new angle that no one had ever
thought of before, I'd still say its a bad argument - and a poor reason for
including pvp-stealing in mmorpg's.
I mean, there are *fundamental* game balance issues with stealing. Most of
which could have been addressed by making stealing an aggressive action.
> but it doesn't mean either side is without its merits. Is UO a standard RPG?
> No, of course not.
Right. So the argument that thieves *should* necessarily be a part of UO
because thieves are a traditional class in RPGs doesn't have merit.
UO is a mud. In most muds, PvP oriented ones with no PK switches, even,
(which UO certainly is), there are serious restrictions placed on players
stealing from other players.
Why?
Because 20+ years of multiplayer online game experience have come to the
conclusion that there are *serious* game-balance issues with pvp stealing in
online games.
UO chucked all that experienced out the window and went with the "thieves are
a traditional class in d&d, so we better ignore all the experts and implement
this skill in the worst possible way, and then just tweak it with one
restriction after another in weird fiction-breaking un-justifiable ways".
Didn't YET ANOTHER thieving change just go in? You realize how long UO has
been out, and that they are STILL trying to balance thieving?
> Never even had a guilded thief. . . I find thieving boring, I guess.
Point is, you find the inclusion of thieving in the game to be fun.
Nothing wrong with just saying that.
You don't have to try and *prove* that having thieves in the game makes it
better.
And I think - some guildfightingguy can say more - there are probably still
some game balance issues with having stealing in the game. Nekkidthieves in
guildwars stealing from their opponents still a problem? I see they just
took out the nekkidthieves stealing from grey/red folk (now that there are
more red folk to complain about how imbalanced and un-fair stealing is).
Even the "you have to join the thievesguild" thing is a kludge.
All of these changes are tweaks - halfassed stabs at fixing what is a
fundamental problem with stealing.
I dunno, I think it's a little silly to see all these mammoth problems with
stealing - which have been in the game since day one - and still they tweak
at it instead of just making it PvM-only.
> know ;) My point is Qauckster here would rather see thieving coded out
> entirely.
Taking it out entirely, versus leaving it as it has been for most of the time
he's been playing, is not a bad option.
> Thieves are annoying, frustrating and infuriating to deal with-but
> do I want them gone? No! Absolutely not!
Like I said, everyone has their own particular tastes. Since they are
*still* tweaking stealing game-balance issues, I make the assumption that the
skill *still* hasn't been balanced. After THIS long, I think it's maybe not
such a bad approach to just say, "Screw it. You can't fix it. You're never
going to fix it. Just take it out."
Yuri Gorlinski
>
> I regard this current dev team, Jalek excepted, the same as another ames or
> filby (spies for russians, in high places in their respective intel agencies) -
> in other words, your worst nightmare. They clearly are doing things that are
> extremely unpopular with anyone but UOQuakers, and they clearly know the upset
> they are causing.
As usual, you don't know what the fuck
you're talking about. The majority of the
PvP community has been extremely
disappointed with the current dev team.
Your moronic persecution complex is
obviously distorting your view of reality.
Yuri Gorlinski
>
> Since they are
> *still* tweaking stealing game-balance issues, I make the assumption that the
> skill *still* hasn't been balanced. After THIS long, I think it's maybe not
> such a bad approach to just say, "Screw it. You can't fix it. You're never
> going to fix it. Just take it out."
You could make this same argument for
pretty much everything in the game though.
Developing a game like UO is an ongoing
process... Even if they knew what the fuck
they were doing right from the start, they'd
still have to constantly tweak and realign
things as the game developed and the
balance shifted...
Hasn't this been your experience with
WoD? I'd be surprised if it hasn't...
I do see what you're getting at about
thieves though. Never been a huge issue
for me, but I'm starting to come over to
your side on it... I think Nia's main
complaint here revolves around Quaestor
being a control freak, one who would
cheerfully eliminate thieves, PKs, and
everything else that's outside of his control
from the game if he had the opportunity. I
believe both of your arguments have merit.
Thieves are screwed up, and so is Quaestor.
Richard Cortese
> My mules are just that...mules. None of them have any fighting skills.
My
> fisherman is also my alchemist/scribe. He did get pked once on his boat
in
> the unattended macroing days but I wasn't there anyway. My
carpenter/smith
> is a addons mule and therefore has zero room under the cap for fighting
> skills. She has NEVER been PKed while out chopping wood (and, no, I don't
> chop in town usually). My miner/smith/carpenter on SP has been PKed once
> while out mining, and I don't mine in town either. I guess I don't see
why
> you think that trades characters HAVE to be able to fight or why they
suffer
> a huge penalty for not fighting.
say the reason why your trades people can go outside of town now is because
trade people in the game are such a dilute resource now that they aren't
worth hunting. I say they were essentially hunted into extinction.
Maybe you skipped over the ingot head deaths and Janey got PK'd or the
Better Dressed Britanian invasions with blurbs like killing her pet dogs and
whatnot, but I remember them. I also remember she is gone now too, to a
private shard.
So yes, we will never hear another Janey's tailor got PK'd story. We will
seldom if ever hear an "any tailor" got PK'd story again, you have to have
tailors in the game for them to be PK'd.
The reason why my tamer still gets attacked is because they have to tame
where the phat l33wt is because that is where they get their skill gain. I
have a lot trade people, two GM scribes, miner/blacksmith, alchemist,
bowyer, you name it. I only have 1 character that has no trade skill. Of
course my alchemist doesn't have to fight and my bowyer never runs into
anybody in the wilderness let alone a PK. Let me buy dragons that I can tame
and release from the stables that give me skill gain and it will be fixed.
> *shrugs* My tamer can hold her own or escape in a fight without using
pets.
Then what happens in guild warfare? No retreat from dragons? Do you use your
tamer for guild wars or one of your other characters? If you don't use your
tamer, could it have something to do with the 200 points of fighting skills
you have to reserve for taming?
> She has been attacked twice while out taming, one time she killed the
> attacker, the other time the attacker went running to his house when his
> initial combo barely put a dent in her health bar.
> Never had anyone attack things I was trying to tame yet either. Of course
I
> am not up to the dragon level yet.
Only time I don't get a negative experience with my tamer is when I don't
run into anybody in the game: Baja in action.
I can wait until you start taming drakes and dragons so you can see what it
is like. Only a few good spots in the game and they are invariably filled
with jerks. I shouldn't say that, last time I went to Covetous it was empty
top to bottom.
Near as I can tell, you have been killed once by a tamed dragon<possibly due
to the teleporting bug> and you don't like the idea that Q is able to have a
dragon. One death in the game does not a crisis make. I can't help you with
the Q thing, he is playing within the rules of the game that allow him to
own and control a dragon.
But penalizing every tamer left in the game because of 2 people using
dragons in guild warfare and because Q has a dragon is a being extreme.
Near as I can tell, since no one else came forward, you are the only one to
suffer death by tamed lizard in the newsgroup. If say 20 people out of the
200 or so particpants in the newsgroup come forward and say, "I was drake
killed" then I will concede it is a problem, but we are seeing nothing like
that so far.
Richard Cortese
> Richard Cortese wrote:
>
> > I am really getting disappointed with the people in the newsgoup. How
many
> > times do I have to say this before you get it? It seems like people are
> > deliberately chosing to grind an axe vs read what I am saying. Read what
I
> > say before you respond with an off the wall comment that doesn't relate
to
> > what I write, then ack that you are talking about a different situation
that
> > has nothing to do with me. Maybe even change the header.
>
done to
> me so much? Having experienced it yourself to the point of upset, even
anger,
> can you now understand how I have felt?
wrong with either of them, but when you combine in a single post, they get
people pissed off. Just the way newsgroups work, kind of universal to
everyone and every newsgroup.
If it bothers you, you can still be just as confrontational, you can still
be just as opinionated. Have opinions when you aren't confronting people,
confront people when you don't have an opinion, you will get more milage
that way. It is really something you can just wake up one day and start
doing for the fun of it.
But then I am not sure you mind the current situation that much: Let's you
be confrontational or opininated anytime you feel up for it. I don't think
you would want to have it any other way, but then only you know for sure.
Greywind
Richard Cortese wrote:
>
> Greywind <hj...@home.com> wrote in message news:389A18C3...@home.com...
> > Tell ya what Richard. I'll take the 200 points animal lore/taming,
> > and you can have 200 points of anyother skills you want.
> >
> > I'll tame a dragon, and then see what 200 point combo is the best.
> ARRRGGHHH!!!
>
> We are now up to 6-7 times now. Fine, leave your dragon in the stables like
> I do, go to the bottom of covetous and try taming a drake that is
> fireballing you while I come up behind you and flame strike you or the still
> wild drake and see just how well you get along with your 200 point
> disadvantage. You will be helpless in the situation, zero chance of escaping
> with anything but your life. I took a murder count last week because of this
> very situation, I don't call having to take it in the shorts or murder
> count parity.
>
> One more time, you do not have your dragon with you when you are taming! You
> are exposed! Where on the other hand, someone with high resist, magery, ei,
> ... is just as strong everywhere they go! They never have to play the
> victim!!!
>
> I spend 90% of my time when I am running my tamers, well taming. 90% of the
> time I am an easy target. I don't look for this to change, I got burned out
> on killing people on a nightly basis almost 2 years ago now. I have had
> enough, killing a person or two a week is fine with me.
>
You know, I was in shame a while back, letting the blood ele
empty its mana into me. 2 guys showed up, blue, and started
casting flame strikes. They both targetted me, I died.
Same thing with dragons/drakes in destard. that dragon
hits me, some guy shows up, i'm dead. No chance whatsoever.
It doesn't matter if you're a tamer or a 7xGM RoxUrAzz kewlio.
You are dead, with almost no hope of surviving.
When you run your tamer, um.. shouldn't you have some pets
with you? After all, that is the strength of the tamer is
it not?
> > You keep bitching about how unfair it is to tamers and blah
> > blah blah, and it's getting a tad bit tiring. That dragon
> I get tired of your reactionary insulting crap everytime someone disagrees
> with you too, so what? If you don't like it don't read it.
>
> You and only about 1 or 2 other ignorant people actually read some of my
> "feel all warm and fuzzy inside because it had a happy ending" stories as
> bitching!
Well... so I'm ignorant now? I didn't read the original posts in
this thread, unless it was where you got your tamer pk'd and then
killed the guy who npk'd you. I had no problem with what you did
there, and I also don't like the jump the blades npk. That being
said, when I do use blades and ev's, I try to be careful, and
alert. I'm sure you do as well. That's the price of "cheesing"
is one perspective.
Sorry, where in my "rant" did I claim it wasn't fair, or that
I wanted dragons removed, or... I didn't. The only thing that
makes the dragon or any pet dangerous is the teleporting ability
that osi has given them.
> ibid. It gets too difficult to repeatedly say I don't tame with a dragon in
> tow and I don't PK with a dragon.
>
Well, I my characters get attacked virtually every place they go.
If i'm fighting something that can actually do damage to me, my
ONLY option is to run and recall away. If it's a magic using
monster, I'm dead as soon as the pkillers can target me. Your
tamer is no different and my adventurer.
>
> You and not many left in the newsgroup can not concieve of a tamer that like
> to tame because they like to tame vs get a dragon to rock someones ass or
> tailor who tailors for the sake of tailoring vs buy phat regs for their
> macroed mage. It is your collective loss and I pity you for it. You are
> certainly not a better person for the change.
>
> Brandy's proposed 400 point requirement for tamers is a good example. You
> don't even want my tamers the game. My PvP characters are fine of course,
> nothing has to happen to them even though they could kill my tamer in a New
> York minute.
Wow.. you know, I have a tamer. I've played tamers. Even as a tamer
I thought taming dragons was just way too much and should be removed.
400 points for taming is ridiculous, but 200 is not. Done right,
tamers are actually the most powerful character types in the game.
I view it as anything else, it's a give and take, balance type of issue.
You can't be master of everything. If you want high resist, something
has to go. My fighter has poisoning skill. It's personal with me
that I don't use a mule for it. I like being able to poison on the
fly. that's 85 (right now) skill points not available to me to
pvp with. I'd love to see changes to the poisoning skill such
that it's the skill of the weapon wielder that counts. With the
new poison changes, they really should implement that as poison
is going to rule.
As to the news group bash, we really are lacking humor, but you
were a bit too harsh.
In closing, I guess I'd like to say "lighten up". My post wasn't
meant to bash at you. Sorry if it came off that way.
Greywind out....
Quaestor
> you have to have tailors in the game for them to be PK'd.
Tamer/tailors are still around. You tame, you kill, you make boots, all rather
quickly, raising multiple skills and some money, balancing your stats somewhat.
Couple of my new guild people are doing that. But after a certain level you do
have to decide, taming or tailoring - you cannot have both and still be able to
do anything to defend yourself or kill tames.
> The reason why my tamer still gets attacked is because they have to tame where
> the phat l33wt is because that is where they get their skill gain.
Well, white wolves can take you all the way to GM, but on a shard where the
spawn of them is blocked by placing a row of hedges on the SE tip of the island,
that could take years. Bulls can do the job, as can great harts, but either of
those takes a long time and there is no safe place where they are to be found in
numbers to allow the near-constant taming that used to be possible on iceland.
If you want significant gains for fewer taming attempts, you have to take on
some pretty extreme risks. Things that breath fire, cast magic, and have jerks
hanging around them. I found that one hellhound was equal in gain to perhaps 20
bulls or 50 white wolves. It also took longer to do it, and placed me at very
serious risk.
And a hellhound is really just a dire with bad breath. Not much damage (about
like a griz), not much health, but when the target steps away it gets that shot
of flame up the arse, and DAMN that is neat! :-)
> I can wait until you start taming drakes and dragons so you can see what it is
> like. Only a few good spots in the game and they are invariably filled with
> jerks. I shouldn't say that, last time I went to Covetous it was empty top to
> bottom.
Hey, you have to have newbies in the game to pk newbies. :-)
> Near as I can tell, you have been killed once by a tamed dragon<possibly due
> to the teleporting bug> and you don't like the idea that Q is able to have a
> dragon.
Well, there is a surprise. Everything someone else does is wrong.
> One death in the game does not a crisis make. I can't help you with the Q
> thing, he is playing within the rules of the game that allow him to own and
> control a dragon.
My gawd, is that %$#@ actually scared of my dragons? I thought he believed I
never pvp'd at all.
> But penalizing every tamer left in the game because of 2 people using dragons
> in guild warfare and because Q has a dragon is a being extreme.
Uh, this guy thought dragons in guildwars was just fine when Mir was using one
on Their side. Funny how when the opponent starts doing the same thing it's not
fair anymore. Eh? And extreme is the hallmark of ... well, extreme people.
> Near as I can tell, since no one else came forward, you are the only one to
> suffer death by tamed lizard in the newsgroup.
*looks embarassed while recalling getting killed twice by his own wyrms after
they mass cursed*
> If say 20 people out of the 200 or so particpants in the newsgroup come
> forward and say, "I was drake killed" then I will concede it is a problem, but
> we are seeing nothing like that so far.
But never underestimate the Q factor. Apparently he is scared of me. Me whom
he says such condescending %$#@ about. And since I don't play their game, don't
give them anything to attack, they have to try and attack me some other way.
I'm really amused at this.
Brandy
> > My mules are just that...mules. None of them have any fighting skills.
> My
> > fisherman is also my alchemist/scribe. He did get pked once on his boat
> in
> > the unattended macroing days but I wasn't there anyway. My
> carpenter/smith
> > is a addons mule and therefore has zero room under the cap for fighting
> > skills. She has NEVER been PKed while out chopping wood (and, no, I
don't
> > chop in town usually). My miner/smith/carpenter on SP has been PKed
once
> > while out mining, and I don't mine in town either. I guess I don't see
> why
> > you think that trades characters HAVE to be able to fight or why they
> suffer
> > a huge penalty for not fighting.
> say the reason why your trades people can go outside of town now is
because
> trade people in the game are such a dilute resource now that they aren't
> worth hunting. I say they were essentially hunted into extinction.
>
> Maybe you skipped over the ingot head deaths and Janey got PK'd or the
> Better Dressed Britanian invasions with blurbs like killing her pet dogs
and
> whatnot, but I remember them. I also remember she is gone now too, to a
> private shard.
>
Mining is generally hazardous on normal shards. I hear it is on SP as well,
though I have only had the one incident there. I haven't mined on LS since
before the colored ore patch, but when I did, my miner did get attacked
often. Of course, I was mining in the archer/mage pk heyday. My miner did
have fighting skills then.
I started carpentry/bowyering around the time of the rep patch. I never was
attacked while out chopping wood. Ever. I did have a thief run up and
steal my pearl once though.
> So yes, we will never hear another Janey's tailor got PK'd story. We will
> seldom if ever hear an "any tailor" got PK'd story again, you have to have
> tailors in the game for them to be PK'd.
>
> The reason why my tamer still gets attacked is because they have to tame
> where the phat l33wt is because that is where they get their skill gain. I
> have a lot trade people, two GM scribes, miner/blacksmith, alchemist,
> bowyer, you name it. I only have 1 character that has no trade skill. Of
> course my alchemist doesn't have to fight and my bowyer never runs into
> anybody in the wilderness let alone a PK. Let me buy dragons that I can
tame
> and release from the stables that give me skill gain and it will be fixed.
> > *shrugs* My tamer can hold her own or escape in a fight without using
> pets.
> Then what happens in guild warfare? No retreat from dragons? Do you use
your
> tamer for guild wars or one of your other characters? If you don't use
your
> tamer, could it have something to do with the 200 points of fighting
skills
> you have to reserve for taming?
I did have her as Order for a few months. I used grizzleys once during that
time I think. The reason I dropped her from Order was because I get
horrendous spell lag at times (when you cast and it takes forever for the
target cursor to come up, when you are otherwise not lagged.). That was
getting her killed, not the lack of 200 points of weapons skills.
> > She has been attacked twice while out taming, one time she killed the
> > attacker, the other time the attacker went running to his house when his
> > initial combo barely put a dent in her health bar.
> > Never had anyone attack things I was trying to tame yet either. Of
course
> I
> > am not up to the dragon level yet.
> Only time I don't get a negative experience with my tamer is when I don't
> run into anybody in the game: Baja in action.
>
> I can wait until you start taming drakes and dragons so you can see what
it
> is like. Only a few good spots in the game and they are invariably filled
> with jerks. I shouldn't say that, last time I went to Covetous it was
empty
> top to bottom.
>
> Near as I can tell, you have been killed once by a tamed dragon<possibly
due
> to the teleporting bug> and you don't like the idea that Q is able to have
a
> dragon. One death in the game does not a crisis make. I can't help you
with
> the Q thing, he is playing within the rules of the game that allow him to
> own and control a dragon.
>
It's been a lot more than once. Being on a dialup makes me dragon food
almost everytime I am the target.
> But penalizing every tamer left in the game because of 2 people using
> dragons in guild warfare and because Q has a dragon is a being extreme.
>
Q is twinking since he doesn't have the required skill to tame a dragon.
You could get rid of the twinkers at no penalty to the real tamers other
than them not being able to sell the large pets.
> Near as I can tell, since no one else came forward, you are the only one
to
> suffer death by tamed lizard in the newsgroup. If say 20 people out of the
> 200 or so particpants in the newsgroup come forward and say, "I was drake
> killed" then I will concede it is a problem, but we are seeing nothing
like
> that so far.
>
Whats the percentage of consentual PvPers in the ng? I have seen responses
from Yuri, Corwin, and Greywind on this topic. Pretty sure thats a good
proportion of those of us that consentually PvP here.
Brandy (WE, LS)
Dundee
wrote:
> > Since they are
> > *still* tweaking stealing game-balance issues, I make the assumption that the
> > skill *still* hasn't been balanced. After THIS long, I think it's maybe not
> > such a bad approach to just say, "Screw it. You can't fix it. You're never
> > going to fix it. Just take it out."
>
> You could make this same argument for pretty much everything in the game though.
But not everything's primary use is to take another player's stuff.
Tailoring for example. It was grossly imbalanced, and for a LONG time before
they finally "tweaked" it - but for the entire time it was imbalanced, there
weren't people running around "tailoring on me".
> Developing a game like UO is an ongoing
> process...
Sure, but stealing, in particular, is something most muds just wind up
removing from the PvP equation. It's imbalanced and there's no way to
balance it.
The competition is, for example, me-the-theif versus you-the-whatever.
If I lose, I don't really lose anything.
If I win, I get a prize (a prize that comes out of your pocket).
Why would you even WANT to participate in a competition like that?
It's the same reason begging doesn't work on players. It would be grossly
unfair for me to be able to run around with my GM Beggar forcing players to
"give" me stuff. What if OSI made begging work on other players, and then
tweaked it for three years trying to make it "fair"?
We'd all be screaming, "Christ, just take it out" and a mess of folk would be
posting, "Hey, beggars are part of the traditional fantasy world!"
Functionally, I don't see a big difference between stealing and begging,
though they're are ever-so-slowly removing the circumstances in which I can
use the begging skill (scuze me... stealing skill) on you, there are still
situations in which it can be used - and in those situations I'll have
nothing to lose, and if I win I get a prize. You'll have nothing to gain
from the encounter regardless.
> I believe both of your arguments have merit.
> Thieves are screwed up, and so is Quaestor.
Ouch. Now... You're going to hurt his feelings.
:p
Richard Cortese
news:87f10p$eci$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Richard Cortese wrote:
> > ARRRGGHHH!!!
>
> <snip>
>
You
> > are exposed! Where on the other hand, someone with high resist, magery,
ei,
> > ... is just as strong everywhere they go! They never have to play the
> > victim!!!
>
> go taming, and you won't have to play the
really do since I don't need the money. I could bring a dragon with me to a
guild war, but I was in a guild the first day they were implemented and got
tired of it after about a year of guilds/guildmastering.
But when you tame any damage done to the thing you are trying to tame aborts
the process. Even having the animal you are trying to tame under the
influence of a poison spell will abort the process when the poison takes a
few tics off their life bar. Anything you try to tame, being wild, will
attack the tame dragon and start the process.
I really have spent a lot of time doing this. You know the room on Covetous
4 by drake lake? Tried leaving a dragon in there more then once to avoid the
damage while I tamed outside the room. All the jerk did was attack my
dragon, led it outside and around to where the drake I was trying to tame
was. Ended up the dragon killed the drake while the jerk was flame striking
the dragon. Had this kind of thing happen so often I can't even remember for
sure how it ended, they all kind of blur together after numerous attacks and
a few months.
Anyway, that is the way you take care of pet dragon in a dungeon. Almost
trivial, someone with 30 magery and the poison spell could lead a tame
dragon to a spawn area and it is everything the tamer can do to save their
pet. If you follow the dragon into the spawn area to try and lead it around
obstructions, you get fire balled or deamon munched, not to mention
paralyzed or have a wall thrown up behind you blocking your retreat.
The really good ones, jerks that is, do things like run up and down the
stairs until they are blue to you, but the dragon is still grey/attackable
to them. At that stage you can only hope to gate the dragon out or take a
murder count. More and more I am resolved to going the murder count route.
Understand that I am kind of pleased you don't know how to be a jerk, but
you should really get a dragon to walk around while you are in a dungeon so
you get some background in how to deal with tamers when you fight them. The
jerks have the routine down to an art, it is like they have done it 1000
times. Multiple jerks don't even need to communicate, they just go to work.
> victim either. Your argument here is
> ridiculous, a character who has invested
> 200 points in taming/lore is obviously going
> to be at a disadvantage when those points
> aren't being used. A tamer without a pet is
> going to be at a disadvantage just like a
> mage without reagants, or a warrior without
> a weapon.
OK, when is a mage w/o reagents or a warrior w/o a weapon? Never for the
most part, only time is after a death and they are usually safe in town at a
healer when that happens.
I am w/o a pet 90% of the time. I have to be w/o a pet 90% of the time,
taming doesn't work when you have a pet and I still tame. 100% of the time I
am taming I am out of guard zones, I could still get gains from bulls if I
was willing to take 2-3 attempts at gaining skill a night, but I like to run
a character for more then 5 minutes before I switch to another one. Even if
I made GM taming, I would still tame, I like taming.
>
> <snip>
>
> > Blah blah blah bullshit pure and simple, you don't know jack. What is
wrong
> > with walking away briskly anyway.
>
> The point of PvP is fighting, not walking
> briskly away. If dragons are spoiling PvP
> situations by causing everyone to walk
> briskly away rather than fighting, then this
> is something which the dev team should
> address.
Nope, gross double standard happening here. The advice from [you, Q, Brandy,
...] is essentially "Just run/gate away". I tell you the same thing, "If
someone has a dragon in a guild war, just walk briskly away" and it is not
satisfactory to you, why do you expect it to be satisfactory to me?
I could tell you how to easily kill a dragon or their tamer in every
situation, like the Covetous example, because I have had them killed in
every situation, but find out for yourself.
> This strikes me as a wildly inaccurate and
> unfair assessment of the people who post to
Nope, you have to have been here from day one. People passing around
recipies, Cyclone and Magnus humor. Bowyers like Dundee, myself, Icelady,
taran<?> comparing notes on sorting bows. The group is becoming a monolith
and it is a shrine to PvP.
> Rich, I can understand that you're not
> interested in using your tamer to PvP, that's
> fine. What I can't understand is how you
> can complain about your tamer being
> ill-suited for PvP, while simultaneously
> claiming that you're not interested in using
> him for PvPing.
Because it really is a major pain in the ass to have a weak character in
this game.
Look, I can ack that you are ahead of the curve<in another post> in
realizing dragons will become/may become more of a problem in guild warfare
at some future date. Why can't you ack that I am ahead of the curve on
tamers being a target? I don't guild warfare, so I don't know what is going
on there. You don't tame, so you don't know what is happening there.
>
> > Brandy's proposed 400 point requirement for tamers is a good example.
You
> > don't even want my tamers the game.
>
> Nobody has a problem with your tamer
> being in the game, it's the twinks using
> dragons for guildwar which are causing
> problems.
Bingo! It is not a problem if you take one of two solutions, get a dragon
yourself or ban them from guild warfare.
It is the off the wall tamers have to be nerfed that I take exception to. My
tamer, Dundee's tamer, Mir's tamer, etc were never a problem for anyone in
the game. Why do people have to call for across the board nerfs when there
is only 1 or 2 people taking advantage of the situation?
It would be like banning gate travel from the game because some people were
using it for house breakins. It misses the target and becomes a witch hunt.
Sheesh! Greywind even said if he sees a tamer taming a dragon he would kill
them. This is just over the top knee jerk reaction, it completely loses
touch with reality.
Brandy
Quaestor <Range...@Skara.Brae> wrote in message
>
> My gawd, is that %$#@ actually scared of my dragons? I thought he
believed I
> never pvp'd at all.
>
You don't.
> Uh, this guy thought dragons in guildwars was just fine when Mir was using
one
> on Their side. Funny how when the opponent starts doing the same thing
it's not
> fair anymore. Eh? And extreme is the hallmark of ... well, extreme
people.
>
I would be even happier if they were gone from all sides. At least Mir had
the skill to tame his own dragons, unlike both you and most of the Chaos
tamers I run into.
>
> But never underestimate the Q factor. Apparently he is scared of me. Me
whom
> he says such condescending %$#@ about. And since I don't play their game,
don't
> give them anything to attack, they have to try and attack me some other
way.
> I'm really amused at this.
>
HahAHAHahHAHAHAHahhahahaHA
No one can possibly be scared of someone who's recall macro button is
permanently glued to his thumb.
Brandy (WE, LS)
Quaestor
> When you run your tamer, um.. shouldn't you have some pets
> with you? After all, that is the strength of the tamer is
> it not?
When taming any aggressive critter (spiders, whatever), having another pet nearby,
unless it is Not in guard mode, gets the current taming target killed. In fact,
even if your pet is not in guard mode, the target critter will often target the
pet, and get killed. And I have yet to tame a ghost, or get skill gain for
trying. *nudge*
Firebreathers and spellcastors are just that much worse. And in Destard it is
extremely difficult to put your pets "around the corner" to keep them from getting
into it with everything there.
I did that in Hythloth, twice, placing the wyrm around the corner, available to
slam any extra spawn that might appear, or scare off any lower-level jerks that
might come along. With a lot of effort I was able to place him so he could not
see the taming target (hellhound), and so would not autodefend when it hit me, but
would be ready to do his job if anything else attacked. It took a lot of effort,
but resulted in my being able to tame the HH without distractions like just any pk
or orc that came along.
The same is not practicable in Destard, where "around the corner" does not exist.
Extremely destructive spawn can show up anywhere at any time, as well as jerks
well versed in killing your best dragons. Taking pets there is just a way of
getting them killed, and not getting any taming done.
> Sorry, where in my "rant" did I claim it wasn't fair, or that
> I wanted dragons removed, or... I didn't. The only thing that
> makes the dragon or any pet dangerous is the teleporting ability
> that osi has given them.
OK, why don't you teleport faster yourself? It is nothing but movement, it is not
teleporting, so all you have to do is move too. You have faster movement that
they do, and you CAN get away (I have outrun my own wyrms when they attacked me
after a mass curse quite a few times, and wyrms are some of the fastest critters
in the game, faster than silver serpents because they fly over brambles and such).
> Wow.. you know, I have a tamer. I've played tamers. Even as a tamer
> I thought taming dragons was just way too much and should be removed.
> 400 points for taming is ridiculous, but 200 is not.
Taken out of context, any number is right, and not right. In the context of the
real game, the game in which we are forced to try and survive encounters with
700-point killers using 500-point characters, that 200 points for controling
critters that are so easy to defeat or at least avoid is a huge price to pay. The
very best that a tamer can do is relatively easy to defeat. Movement alone
defeats the dragons (and EV kills them), and the tamer is a relative wimp. It
does not take a huge difference in a character to make a huge difference in their
ability to survive fighting encounters. 200 points off your fighting ability IS a
huge difference, and in most circumstances the pets do not do much to make up for
it.
> Done right, tamers are actually the most powerful character types in the game.
Quite the contrary. Certainly capable of making a lot of $, but only if jerks can
be avoided. In pvp, dragons and such are really meaningful only under very
special circumstances.
Which may just happen to raise the question, why did I go for dragons and dragon
taming? UOQuakers would never understand, assuming it was to fight THEM.
I did it because I love the dragons. Those silly collections of pixels and
numbers. I like the way they move, the way they actually seem to develop
personalities, the fact that they only turn on you under certain predictable and
controllable circumstances (unlike so many people I've run into). In a way, the
fact that these all-but-supreme beings need my protection is kind of an
attraction. And I love it when they fly. When I'm running along through the
woods, a dragon flying along behind me, it's the most amazing feeling, like I'm
flying too.
Silly, eh? Not very k3wL. I have paid one huge price, in time, money, and the
frustration of knowing I am NOT developing the supreme fighting machine who can
defend herself, with all this work, all because I love a part of the game that has
nothing to do with r0xInG no @zzes, gaining pH4t lewT (ok, sometimes), or
impressing those who are only impressed by people killing them. Until the recent
final wrecking of taming and controling them, I considered it a price well paid.
> I view it as anything else, it's a give and take, balance type of issue.
> You can't be master of everything.
As a tamer you cannot be master of enough to defend yourself. If you cannot get
away from jerks and they don't let themselves be killed by your pets, you are
dead.
Like anything else, in an ambush situation the tamer can kill anyone. Part of why
taming has been wrecked is that a year ago some pk was ambushing people at dungeon
entrances. As they step into the dungeon entrance they are going from one
sub-shard server to the other, which means a second or twelve of lag, during which
time the pk's SEVEN DRAGONS would kill absolutely anyone who entered, no matter
how powerful or quick. It appears that this one %$#@ has ruined it for us all.
That was when the dismantling of taming began. And yet, ambushing swords or mages
don't get their ability to play the game wrecked. Quite the contrary, it keeps
being enhanced to the point where everyone else is being driven out.
Brandy
Quaestor <Range...@Skara.Brae> wrote in message
.
>
> OK, why don't you teleport faster yourself? It is nothing but movement,
it is not
> teleporting, so all you have to do is move too. You have faster movement
that
> they do, and you CAN get away (I have outrun my own wyrms when they
attacked me
> after a mass curse quite a few times, and wyrms are some of the fastest
critters
> in the game, faster than silver serpents because they fly over brambles
and such).
The majority of the people playing this game are not fortunate enough to
live in an area where DSL is available. But of course, if Q, LPB that he
is, can do it, then everyone else can get stuffed, eh?
Brandy (WE, LS)
Quaestor
> ... it is everything the tamer can do to save their pet. If you follow the
> dragon into the spawn area to try and lead it around obstructions, you get
> fire balled or deamon munched, not to mention paralyzed or have a wall thrown
> up behind you blocking your retreat.
Never forget, if you can get close enough to the dragon for it to obey a
command, precast Gate with a scroll to avoid blowing it), run in, hit the rune,
say all follow me, and as soon as it responds you hit the gate. It does not
matter if it can get to you, it will go through the gate, leaving the jerks
behind bitching that you are an exploiter.
> The really good ones, jerks that is, do things like run up and down the stairs
> until they are blue to you, but the dragon is still grey/attackable to them.
Keep targeting them. Para, Wall, summon another critter, make obscene phone
calls, whatever. But most important, when up against a capable dragon-killer,
get out. Use the above trick and go. There is no honor in staying, no shame in
leaving. The game has been programmed to make us wimps, and we can act the part
or suffer the consequences.
> Look, I can ack that you are ahead of the curve<in another post> in realizing
> dragons will become/may become more of a problem in guild warfare at some
> future date.
Not as big as you might think. However useful they could be, getting to the
point of being able to have one now requires real work. Most k3wLi0z cannot
handle that. Standing around banks or hanging at the Xroads is work for them.
Actually going out and taming for the months it takes is just not something most
can ever stick with to the point of being able to do anything that pays off.
Notice how few ever get to grizzly level?
All dragons I have seen used in guildwar were the pets of tamers who went pvp,
not pvpers who went tamer. This could change, but I believe not by much.
> Bingo! It is not a problem if you take one of two solutions, get a dragon
> yourself or ban them from guild warfare.
Considering OS' past record, the only way they could implement this is to make
dragons unable to guard or be ordered to kill at all. *sigh*
> It is the off the wall tamers have to be nerfed that I take exception to. My
> tamer, Dundee's tamer, Mir's tamer, etc were never a problem for anyone in the
> game.
Well, Mir went bad (was Order *nudge*) toward the end, and tore up some serious
chaos ass with Ako (who is now in retirement in my keeping).
> Why do people have to call for across the board nerfs when there is only 1 or
> 2 people taking advantage of the situation?
Why do people throw EV's into guildmeetings? Why do people attack ME? *nudge*
They just do not have the mentality to think beyond such simple brutal methods.
Their's is a dog's life, with a dog's philosophy (If you can't eat it or fuck
it, piss on it!).
> It would be like banning gate travel from the game because some people were
> using it for house breakins. It misses the target and becomes a witch hunt.
> Sheesh! Greywind even said if he sees a tamer taming a dragon he would kill
> them. This is just over the top knee jerk reaction, it completely loses touch
> with reality.
And yet, OS continues to support their kind, and wreck things for us. Obviously
WE are the ones who are wrong.
A long time ago I said that eventually UO would have nothing but jerks. pk,
pvpers, thieves, all hacking, cheating, stealing from each other until they too
got tired and left. I feel more strongly than ever that this is the way it is
going. It has nothing to do with better games to go to, just that OS supports
the stagnation of the game into UOQuake, and that is all that is going to
happen.
Greywind
Quaestor wrote:
>
> Greywind wrote:
>
> > Sorry, where in my "rant" did I claim it wasn't fair, or that
> > I wanted dragons removed, or... I didn't. The only thing that
> > makes the dragon or any pet dangerous is the teleporting ability
> > that osi has given them.
>
> OK, why don't you teleport faster yourself? It is nothing but movement, it is not
> teleporting, so all you have to do is move too. You have faster movement that
> they do, and you CAN get away (I have outrun my own wyrms when they attacked me
> after a mass curse quite a few times, and wyrms are some of the fastest critters
> in the game, faster than silver serpents because they fly over brambles and such).
>
Considering I have a cable modem with 90ms pings (usually) I'd
say I can run about as fast as you're gonna get. My machine is only
a 350mz with 128M ram, 32Meg tnt2 nvidia graphics card, so I do get
some client slowdown.
I was NOT able to outrun the dragon, and I started a full screen
away from it. I ran around a house, and it literally teleported
through the house.
I was one of the fastest ppl in that battle. My opponents couldn't
keep up with me, but that dragon had no problem. Don't be quite so
flippant in your retorts... consider yourself slapped :)
Austin
>
>
>Whats the percentage of consentual PvPers in the ng? I have seen responses
>from Yuri, Corwin, and Greywind on this topic. Pretty sure thats a good
>proportion of those of us that consentually PvP here.
>
>Brandy (WE, LS)
>
>
Funny how you only mentioned the ones on your side of the fence
Brandy
responses
> >from Yuri, Corwin, and Greywind on this topic. Pretty sure thats a good
> >proportion of those of us that consentually PvP here.
> >
> >Brandy (WE, LS)
> >
> >
>
>
>
Lets see, Richard PvPs but isn't involved in O/C or guildwars which is what
we are talking about, Q never does, no clue if you do or not. Did anyone
else respond to this thread that I am leaving out?
Brandy (WE, LS)
Corwin of Amber (WE/LS)
>One more time, you do not have your dragon with you when you are taming! You
>are exposed! Where on the other hand, someone with high resist, magery, ei,
>... is just as strong everywhere they go! They never have to play the
>victim!!!
*sheesh* Will you stop this?
Just because you refuse to rebuild your character to adapt to a patch
which is months old .... you keep carping on this ...
Build a real Tamer/Mage ...
Taming 100
Lore 100
Magery 100
Wrestling 100
Resist 100
Eval Int 100
Meditation 100
and stop complaining.
Or stop leaving your tactical nukes at home.
Corwin
Corwin of Amber (WE/LS)
>But when you tame any damage done to the thing you are trying to tame aborts
>the process. Even having the animal you are trying to tame under the
>influence of a poison spell will abort the process when the poison takes a
>few tics off their life bar. Anything you try to tame, being wild, will
>attack the tame dragon and start the process.
I tamed a dragon for the first time on Cool Test. Knocked down it's
health, got behind a rock, and hit tame over and over and over.
I got the you can't tame message because the beast is too upset over
and over and over, but I just kept hitting the button and the tame
would take eventually. I tamed my first dragon in 5 minutes. Later
ones, especially drakes took much longer. I noticed someone else got
one very quickly with the help of peacemaking.
So I just don't see the problem here. I also know you like Wind as I
do. You could always park a dragon in town, under guard protection.
And call on it if someone tries to twink you. You could also work up
your other skills like I suggested in my other post.
The fact that your pets would rather kill you then the person you're
fighting I can't help you with. I suggest you check out that UTB
board.
Corwin
Corwin of Amber (WE/LS)
>> Anywho, I don't think they actually "teleport" as you and Yuri insist.
>> I think they are just blipping across your screens.
>I am convinced this is for real.
Ok, well lemme just say some of the damn things are fast enough even
without teleporting. If they have to teleport to be at the spot they
are supposed to be, then they are tweaked up way too fast.
So what makes for the difference in speed? Some dragons just have
higher dex? or is it just that the tamer is using ALL FOLLOW then ALL
KILL? (this seems to make a big difference sometimes)
Corwin
Corwin of Amber (WE/LS)
>chaos ass with Ako (who is now in retirement in my keeping).
Actually, Mir was too lagged for PvP really. He died a lot, and lost
quite a few dragons. Got guard whacked a few times in town as well.
There were a few notable successes, but usually he and/or the dragon
were just too slow to be effective.
And Q still doesn't get it that there have been, many, many, Ako's. He
has" Ako MCLXX"
Corwin
Corwin of Amber (WE/LS)
Not really. If you see one, you just attack on sight. When under
attack they cannot steal.
That's how I used to keep Puck under control ...
I still think thieves should have to carry some item of value in order
to ply their trade. Tamers, and Bards too for that matter.
Quaestor
> Don't be quite so
> flippant in your retorts... consider yourself slapped :)
You always have to take that dirty little shot, and invalidate yourself, don't you.
Greywind
Fuck you Q. That wasn't a shot. It was meant to be humor.
Ygorl Dragon
>
>Nope, you have to have been here from day one. People passing around
>recipies, Cyclone and Magnus humor. Bowyers like Dundee, myself, Icelady,
>taran<?> comparing notes on sorting bows. The group is becoming a monolith
>and it is a shrine to PvP.
Hey, I did read a lot of that stuff, was lurking on the group for
several months before I ever posted here... No doubt, the chemistry
has changed quite a bit. But it isn't as black and white as you make
it out to be, there is still a lot of non-PvP content here.
And as to many of the best and brightest being the ones who've
moved on, well, that's pretty much universal throughout the entire
range of UO's playerbase. It's not just tradesmen and PvP- folks,
PvPers are going too. I belong to two inactive guilds on Sonoma,
and about 80% of OGD has left SP for Asheron's Call at this point
due to the chronic connectivity problems, along with a general sense
of boredom/frustration/disgust with UO.
>Look, I can ack that you are ahead of the curve<in another post> in
>realizing dragons will become/may become more of a problem in guild warfare
>at some future date. Why can't you ack that I am ahead of the curve on
>tamers being a target? I don't guild warfare, so I don't know what is going
>on there. You don't tame, so you don't know what is happening there.
Oh, I believe you about tamers being targetted. Never doubted it.
And I now understand why you don't bring a dragon with you when you
go taming...
But we're never going to see eye to eye on our respective grievances
with the system. You're always going to hate the ancillary skills like
EI, meditation, and anatomy for taking away the viability of your jack
of all trades ranger character... I'm always going to hate the vastly
overpowered stats of the uber beasts because of the imbalances they
cause in PvP... And I'm sure there's some way that OSI could tweak
things to make both of these situations perfectly workable and acceptable
for both sides. Most likely outcome is that they won't do anything to
make either faction happy, so it's probably not worth arguing over.
yg
Ygorl Dragon
>
>Why do people attack ME?
Because you're an annoying twit.
yg
Richard Cortese
> Keep targeting them. Para, Wall, summon another critter, make obscene
phone
> calls, whatever. But most important, when up against a capable
dragon-killer,
> get out. Use the above trick and go. There is no honor in staying, no
shame in
> leaving. The game has been programmed to make us wimps, and we can act
the part
> or suffer the consequences.
near zero magic resist because of things like tracking. Problems are real
specific to Baja and the characters I have there. I only recently brought
them all back into play because of connection problems everywhere else and
the CTC format.
Problem now is, all the animal lore had taken my character into the low 80s
str and intelligence has skyrocketed at the cost of dex.
I really like building characters, that is why I used to like TC, SBR,
helping newbs, anything that involved building characters was fun for me.
But for some strange reason I don't like to rebuild characters. I had this
character built, but the character needs to be rebuilt once more for new
requirements and yet again for stats. It shouldn't be a big thing to me, but
it is. Just ignore me on this topic, I know it is personal and nobody else
feels that way. You don't have to.
> > Look, I can ack that you are ahead of the curve<in another post> in
realizing
> > dragons will become/may become more of a problem in guild warfare at
some
> > future date.
>
> Not as big as you might think. However useful they could be, getting to
the
> point of being able to have one now requires real work. Most k3wLi0z
cannot
> handle that. Standing around banks or hanging at the Xroads is work for
them.
> Actually going out and taming for the months it takes is just not
something most
> can ever stick with to the point of being able to do anything that pays
off.
> Notice how few ever get to grizzly level?
One of my bosses once chided me for saying, "It is really simple". His
comment was something along the lines of "Sure it is simple for you, because
you know how to do it. To everyone else it is difficult."
I agree that people don't want to do the taming thing, but IMO it isn't
because of difficulty, it is because they don't want to give up 200 points
of skills that you can use all the time such that you can bring a dragon on
the roof of the Trinsic bank<not sure you can anymore?> once or twice a
month to win a fight. Simple cost benefit thing. It would be much more
palatable for them to get rid of the dragons.
I eagerly await the first person, be it Brandy, Greywind, or Yuri, who gets
to master tamer and lore to report back how easy it is to control and use a
dragon. Right now they have little to go on that is fact, mostly
speculation. I am actually rooting for one of them to make it so they can
see what it like vs the uptopia they seem to think it is now.
If I have a character on a shard they are on, I will even offer to kill it
for them to show how it is done.