Where do we all stand on 'stacking'?
Drake
design that I've seen in almost 3 years of UO. I only have one question for
the people doing it regularly. Whatcha gonna do when it's fxied? Something
that corny absolutely will have to be addressed sooner or later. Forget
stat hacks, I think an exploit that basically renders people invisible
hence, invulnerable to surrounding monster spawn is bound to be dealt with
swiftly and surely. Of course this is OSI we're talking about here.
Imagine for a moment a game without boats in dungeons and being able to
stand under your horse next to the Collector of Souls while you casually
toss ev's and whatever you have the reagents and time to cast.
I ask because some of my favorite reasons, (this is from some members of
UO's TAMING guild on a certain shard in the last couple of evenings:
1 - My connect sucks, if it helps me I"ll use it.
2 - The monsters cant see me like this under my horse? Wow, I didn't know
that!
4 - UO is unfair to some and whatnot
etc.
Where do you stand as a UO player? (Sheila Sanders need not answer this as
this really applies only to OSI shards and people still paying OSI)
Alex Mars
>Date: 7/13/00 9:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8kkp6m$4ts$1...@news.cet.com>
>
>Personally, I think its about the most chicken shit blatant exploit
What's stacking?
-Well, God was my co-pilot....but we crashed into a mountain and I had to eat
Him.
Erica
Erica
--
The internet.
It's the socialization key of the new generation.
Drake wrote in message <8kkp6m$4ts$1...@news.cet.com>...
Todd Bailey
raises his hand*
Uhhhh, teacher. What is "stacking"???
Patrick B Fisher
: *Young Dr. Dolittle wakes up, in the back of the classroom, and sheepishly
: raises his hand*
: Uhhhh, teacher. What is "stacking"???
I believe (through my incredible powers of deduction) that stacking is
when you stand on the same tile as some[one/thing] else, like your horse,
thereby preventing the monster AI from "seeing" you. You are hence immune
to any possible harm.
Dundee
> Where do you stand as a UO player? (Sheila Sanders need not answer this as
> this really applies only to OSI shards and people still paying OSI)
People use cheezeball sploits of other sorts on private shards, too. As many
and as often as they can find them.
--
http://home.swbell.net/skeptack/
Drake
Dundee <Dun...@SPAMSPAMSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:396e102b....@news.swbell.net...
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:04:47 -0700, "Drake" <dr...@nospam.org> wrote:
>
> > Where do you stand as a UO player? (Sheila Sanders need not answer this
as
> > this really applies only to OSI shards and people still paying OSI)
>
> People use cheezeball sploits of other sorts on private shards, too. As
many
> and as often as they can find them.
Kind of a comment on us humans, path of least resistance and all that.
We're ususally rewarded in life for figuring out efficient, "legal"
shortcuts though.
I'm sure it happens anywhere and everywhere D. That last line was directed
solely at Sheila Sanders *cough Nomad* since I was asking about stacking as
directly related to the online game I play, run by Origin Systems Inc.,
called Ultima Online.
Drake
Todd Bailey <toddba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:396e0...@news2.one.net...
> *Young Dr. Dolittle wakes up, in the back of the classroom, and sheepishly
> raises his hand*
>
> Uhhhh, teacher. What is "stacking"???
Oh if you dungeon dive enough you have seen it in action. Player simply
jumps off their horse and stands in the same tile as their horse, rendering
them invisible to fresh monster spawn. This, unlike the nifty 1 tile trick
rendering the monster permanently paralyzed, is only workable *before*
anything has a chance to target you. The creative tamers on Wakoku camp the
Terathan pit all day and all night to tame mares by just riding in casting
invisible on themselves, then jump off the horse. Voila. The class can use
their imaginations on how with maybe a couple of invisible items, you never
really have to face death in a dungeon again and all for the price of a
horse.
gil
Patrick B Fisher wrote:
>
> Todd Bailey (toddba...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> : *Young Dr. Dolittle wakes up, in the back of the classroom, and sheepishly
> : raises his hand*
>
> : Uhhhh, teacher. What is "stacking"???
>
> I believe (through my incredible powers of deduction) that stacking is
> when you stand on the same tile as some[one/thing] else, like your horse,
> thereby preventing the monster AI from "seeing" you. You are hence immune
> to any possible harm.
I remember a post here a few months ago which said that the poster
heard/saw a gm tell some folks who were stacking during a treasure hunt
that is was a bannable exploit, and the gm unstacked the players so they
could "play" with the spawn *grins* I don't remember seeing an
official announcement to this effect, but then again, that's not
atypical with OSI.
gil
greywolf
What the heck is wrong with your world????? Exploiters everywhere!!!!!!
Man your game sucks!!!!!
<sarcasm off>
heheheh
Kind of an interesting statement that you make. First there are more
cheezball players out there than we care to count. Second, being a GM or
Sysadmin for a shard is more difficult than many give credit.
Dundee <Dun...@SPAMSPAMSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:396e102b....@news.swbell.net...
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:04:47 -0700, "Drake" <dr...@nospam.org> wrote:
>
> > Where do you stand as a UO player? (Sheila Sanders need not answer this
as
> > this really applies only to OSI shards and people still paying OSI)
>
> People use cheezeball sploits of other sorts on private shards, too. As
many
> and as often as they can find them.
>
Todd Bailey
"Drake" <dr...@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:8kl85l$8bc$1...@news.cet.com...
Voila. The class can use their imaginations on how with maybe a couple of
invisible items, you never really have to face death in a dungeon again and
all for the price of a horse.
See? I told you that horses were the most usefull thing in UO! :-)
Mistress Morrigan
--
--
Mistress Morrigan (Trinity Goddess)
Pronunciation {mor-rig-ahn}
=
High Queen and Goddess of the Tuatha Dé Danann.
As Macha she is Goddess of war and fertility
As Badb she is the water-goddess whose sacred well is a source of knowledge.
As Neman she is the goddess of war and battle.
-----------
"Patrick B Fisher" <pbfi...@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:8kl1fb$kk1$1...@netnews.upenn.edu...
Otara
>design that I've seen in almost 3 years of UO. I only have one question for
>the people doing it regularly. Whatcha gonna do when it's fxied? Something
>that corny absolutely will have to be addressed sooner or later. Forget
>stat hacks, I think an exploit that basically renders people invisible
>hence, invulnerable to surrounding monster spawn is bound to be dealt with
>swiftly and surely. Of course this is OSI we're talking about here.
>Imagine for a moment a game without boats in dungeons and being able to
>stand under your horse next to the Collector of Souls while you casually
>toss ev's and whatever you have the reagents and time to cast.
If you mean people stacking I thought it had been defined as an
exploit in regard to treasure chests, and that a fix had occurred.
Its certainly pretty weak.
If you see it, a GM call could be appropriate?
Otara
Glaeken of LS
when standing on the same square as a horse or another player. Several
players can all stand on the same square and become 'invisible' to newly
spawned monsters. Its particularly useful (regardless of appropriatness)
on treasure hunts.
Personally, I've found clothing & armor w/ invisible chargs work just as
well. Gives my treasure hunter time to gate a distance away, then pick
monsters off one at a time around the perimeter. I've managed quite a
few level 3 chests alone this way. More of a challenge.
I'll admit, having a stacked person pulling stuff out of a chest while
others do the fighting does tend to save the poor hunter from a few
deaths at the brutal hands of ogre lords. Tho if he is attentive and
fast of foot, he can usually outrun these lumbering power-oafs before
the second crushing blow falls.
I had understood that stacking didn't work anymore. I'd certainly not
mind if it was no longer an option in game.
Glaeken of LS
Alex Mars wrote:
>
> >From: "Drake" dr...@nospam.org
> >Date: 7/13/00 9:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <8kkp6m$4ts$1...@news.cet.com>
> >
> >Personally, I think its about the most chicken shit blatant exploit
>
Yuri G.
>
>If you mean people stacking I thought it had been defined as an
>exploit in regard to treasure chests, and that a fix had occurred.
>Its certainly pretty weak.
>
>If you see it, a GM call could be appropriate?
Why stop there? I'd call the police and have the perpetrator
arrested IRL.
Mocker, OGD
None
guys best friend. I see nothing wrong with this, nor view it as an exploit.
But it is funny to read other peoples views.
To add:
Greywolf:<quote>"being a GM or Sysadmin for a shard is more difficult
than many give credit."</quote>
this is sadly true I have worked on game servers and found this alot.
Esspecialy the mud I once ran. (might still be on
http://www.mudconnector.com if you search for black hole) Every wants things
perfect, life like, fair and yada yada... For crying out loud they are only
games.
Well bed time, night all and thanks for listening to me rammble.
Otara
Hmm. Well it would cut down on exploit usage.
Lets give it a whirl.
Otara
Erica
one guy that will run and hide under YOU as you're sitting on a horse.
That's when I cast invisibility to hide me AND the horse - and he dies.
Pretty funny, really.
Erica
--
The internet.
It's the socialization key of the new generation.
Drake wrote in message <8kl85l$8bc$1...@news.cet.com>...
>
>Todd Bailey <toddba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:396e0...@news2.one.net...
>> *Young Dr. Dolittle wakes up, in the back of the classroom, and
sheepishly
>> raises his hand*
>>
>> Uhhhh, teacher. What is "stacking"???
>
>Oh if you dungeon dive enough you have seen it in action. Player simply
>jumps off their horse and stands in the same tile as their horse, rendering
>them invisible to fresh monster spawn. This, unlike the nifty 1 tile trick
>rendering the monster permanently paralyzed, is only workable *before*
>anything has a chance to target you. The creative tamers on Wakoku camp
the
>Terathan pit all day and all night to tame mares by just riding in casting
>invisible on themselves, then jump off the horse. Voila. The class can
Michael Enzweiler
thing I noticed was that it gave us an advantage as a group. Now OSI has always
claimed they want to encourage players to cooperate and work together in groups,
and yet, when they discover this 'undocumented feature' being used this way,
they patch it. At most, piling gives you a bit of time to assess the situation
before you act (3 Lich Lords AND an Ogre Lord?!?!? I thought this was a level
one map! Retreat!!!). Once you attack, even while piled, the monsters notice
and target you. If OSI really want's people to cooperate, they should let them
do it in ways that they find, instead of trying force buggy features like the
party system on them.
~Genevayne
Little WhiteDove
<mic...@biddersguild.com> wrote:
I especially found piling/stacking useful when taking a young player to
hunt or on the t-maps. They had the freedom to fight the easier things
yet avoid the tough stuff. Also if someone lost conn we could continue
without putting them at risk until they timed out.
I don't see how it is more of an exploit than say para field between
char and monster or trapping monsters. Maybe piling was more of an
exploit for those who piled, looted entire treasure chest, then
recalled out without fighting any monsters?
Oh well, it was useful during the initial spawn from a chest and the
lag that accompanied it but we are still doing level 5 maps without
much difficulty...I just wouldn't encourage newer players to come watch
like we used to.
-Little WhiteDove
Badb Catha, Lia Fail Empire
Atlantic
Attentive Dragon
Little WhiteDove wrote in message
<140720001253539917%Dovey_A...@yahoo.com>...
That's a shame, because one of my three "events" I had to attend before
getting into the guild was a treasure hunt (another one was a fun filled
night in dungeon Wrong... wheee!) and I was still a real newbie at the
time... I stood there stacked until something weak, like a gargoyle showed
up, and then I whacked it until it nearly killed me and ran away again ;)
Limits the opportunities for newer players to learn from older ones by
pretty much keeping them out of treasure hunts.
Mistress Morrigan
stand in the same place as any other object of matter in this time and
space... so why should you be able to do it in the game?
Its just a matter of 2 objects not occupying the same space... I personally
don't see it as a "feature" I see it more as a bug/exploit... you
can't/shouldn't be able to do it... and even though it will make it tougher
when the spawn hits during treasure hunts... hey... its all quantum physics
--
--
Mistress Morrigan (Trinity Goddess)
Pronunciation {mor-rig-ahn}
=
High Queen and Goddess of the Tuatha Dé Danann.
As Macha she is Goddess of war and fertility
As Badb she is the water-goddess whose sacred well is a source of knowledge.
As Neman she is the goddess of war and battle.
-----------
"Michael Enzweiler" <mic...@biddersguild.com> wrote in message
news:396F2A93...@biddersguild.com...
Mistress Morrigan
> char and monster or trapping monsters
How is a paralyze field an exploit? I happen to love this spell as it gives
me plenty of chances to run away when I'm gonna get swamped... Nothing like
a nice 6 or 8 monster surface spawn chasing you then a nice pison field then
paralyze wall while the poison does its work and you sit there waiting for
them to die.
My idea for treasure hunts... if you got the amges/man for it... cast a few
paralyze walls around the digger who pops the chest so when the spawn hits
they all get stuck on the walls till someone hits them or they power through
it... should give a few seconds of breathing room and give someone the time
to cast invisible on the chest popper (Woo aliens flashback) so the monsters
loos targeting while the other warrios/mages etc pull off the monsters in a
less frantic attempt to help the popper survive the initial assult.
My 5 cents... everything gets hit by inflation :P
--
--
Mistress Morrigan (Trinity Goddess)
Pronunciation {mor-rig-ahn}
=
High Queen and Goddess of the Tuatha Dé Danann.
As Macha she is Goddess of war and fertility
As Badb she is the water-goddess whose sacred well is a source of knowledge.
As Neman she is the goddess of war and battle.
-----------
"Little WhiteDove" <Dovey_A...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:140720001253539917%Dovey_A...@yahoo.com...
> In article <396F2A93...@biddersguild.com>, Michael Enzweiler
> <mic...@biddersguild.com> wrote:
>
> |When I used to use 'piling' as we call it at guild treasure hunts, the
first
> |thing I noticed was that it gave us an advantage as a group. Now OSI has
always
> |claimed they want to encourage players to cooperate and work together in
> |groups,
> |and yet, when they discover this 'undocumented feature' being used this
way,
> |they patch it. At most, piling gives you a bit of time to assess the
situation
> |before you act (3 Lich Lords AND an Ogre Lord?!?!? I thought this was a
level
> |one map! Retreat!!!). Once you attack, even while piled, the monsters
notice
> |and target you. If OSI really want's people to cooperate, they should
let them
> |do it in ways that they find, instead of trying force buggy features like
the
> |party system on them.
> |
> |~Genevayne
>
> I especially found piling/stacking useful when taking a young player to
> hunt or on the t-maps. They had the freedom to fight the easier things
> yet avoid the tough stuff. Also if someone lost conn we could continue
> without putting them at risk until they timed out.
>
. Maybe piling was more of an
> exploit for those who piled, looted entire treasure chest, then
> recalled out without fighting any monsters?
>
> Oh well, it was useful during the initial spawn from a chest and the
> lag that accompanied it but we are still doing level 5 maps without
> much difficulty...I just wouldn't encourage newer players to come watch
> like we used to.
>
Dundee
<Dovey_A...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I especially found piling/stacking useful when taking a young player to
Beside the point. If exploits weren't useful, no one would use them.
Meaning "If it is an exploit, it sure is useful", doesn't address the
question of whether it's an exploit.
> I don't see how it is more of an exploit than say para field between
> char and monster or trapping monsters.
The difference between piling/stacking and parafield is that parafield was
*intended* to be used stop monsters from attacking you.
--
http://home.swbell.net/skeptack/
Essota Dar
belong to any guild, am not freindly with any guilds. I play the alone
with an occasional teaming up with random encounters of other single
players. Please explain piling/stacking.
Essota Dar
Atlantic
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Essota Dar
to stand on the same spot as another player, such as the "Wall" in the
bone knights room in Deceit, or the ability to push through a passal of
creatures surrounding you in Trammel.
How can this EXPLOIT be fixed without screwing up the 2 examples given
above?
Dorian
<jnkwhite...@bellsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
>Lets see if I grasp this correctly. "Piling/Stacking" is the abililty
>to stand on the same spot as another player, such as the "Wall" in the
>bone knights room in Deceit, or the ability to push through a passal of
>creatures surrounding you in Trammel.
>How can this EXPLOIT be fixed without screwing up the 2 examples given
>above?
>
>Essota Dar
>Atlantic
>
>
>
Easily. Make monsters see stacked players
Duh
Katherine
<jnkwhite...@bellsouth.net.invalid> expounded:
>I have never been on a treasure hunt, do not hunt in groups, do not
>belong to any guild, am not freindly with any guilds. I play the alone
>with an occasional teaming up with random encounters of other single
>players. Please explain piling/stacking.
Prior to the patch, when two or more people stood in the same spot, monster
spawn couldn't "see" them. It was a useful strategy in treasure hunting,
as you could all pile up and watch to see what spawned, and then decide
whether/how to attack it.
Once someone attacks the monster, it sees them, piled or not.
Katherine, Grandmaster Healer
Ciaran, Lia Fail Empire (Atlantic)
Hosting Dr. Dolittle's Stories <http://www.mhn.org/~kate/stories/>
Dundee
<jnkwhite...@bellsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
> Lets see if I grasp this correctly. "Piling/Stacking" is the abililty
> to stand on the same spot as another player,
The problem/exploit with piling/stacking is that the ability to stand on the
same spot as another player renders you invisible to newly spawned mobs.
> such as the "Wall" in the bone knights room in Deceit, or the ability to
> push through a passal of creatures surrounding you in Trammel.
> How can this EXPLOIT be fixed without screwing up the 2 examples given
> above?
Pretty simple. Give the mobs the ability to see all the players around them,
whether those players are stacked or not. And/or have the mobs look around
when they first spawn.
--
http://home.swbell.net/skeptack/
Dundee
> Prior to the patch, when two or more people stood in the same spot, monster
> spawn couldn't "see" them. It was a useful strategy in treasure hunting,
Foul. Using the word "strategy" interchangably with "exploit" is poor form,
don't you think?
--
http://home.swbell.net/skeptack/
Rick Cortese
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:03:47 GMT, ka...@mhn.org (Katherine) wrote:
>
> > Prior to the patch, when two or more people stood in the same spot,
monster
> > spawn couldn't "see" them. It was a useful strategy in treasure
hunting,
>
> Foul. Using the word "strategy" interchangably with "exploit" is poor
form,
> don't you think?
True, but before monsters would kill you before you had a chance to move. I
don't think I ever finished a level II => Orcs mage, gargoyle, beholder w/o
getting a death screen.
This has been fixed sort of. You now get to move about the same time the
monsters start attacking. It is kind of academic when you get an ogre lord
in your lap, but if you can survive one hit from an ogre lord and run faster
then a fire elemental, you have a chance to survive. Kind of what makes it a
game.
Ergo my op: It was never intended that digging up a treasure chest was to be
100% lethal. While stacking always was an exploit it was an excusable one
until treasure hunting was fixed. Monsters now have a slight delay when they
spawn before they lay the smack down now, so it is no longer acceptable to
use it.
Essota Dar
<bond...@home.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:14:59 -0700, Essota Dar
> <jnkwhite...@bellsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
> >Lets see if I grasp this correctly. "Piling/Stacking" is the
> abililty
> in the
> >bone knights room in Deceit, or the ability to push through a
> passal of
> >creatures surrounding you in Trammel.
> >How can this EXPLOIT be fixed without screwing up the 2 examples
> given
> >above?
> >
> >Atlantic
> >
> >
> >
> Easily. Make monsters see stacked players
> Duh
So your solution is not to change the ability to stack, but to change
the enviroment around the exploit. You must work for the gummiment.
Essota Dar
Dorian
<jnkwhite...@bellsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> Easily. Make monsters see stacked players
>> Duh
>
>So your solution is not to change the ability to stack, but to change
>the enviroment around the exploit. You must work for the gummiment.
>
>Essota Dar
>
>
>
>* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
>The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
No. My solution is to FIX THE BUG. The bug is, that when stacked, no
monsters, that havent already seen you, can see you. Has nothing to do
with the ability to stack, has to do with the behaviour when stacked.
So you remove that behaviour.
Dorian
<band...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>So 2 players are standing on the same spot...
>Which one do the newly spawned nasties see? Surely not both are invisible?
>
>Armand
>Master Archer
>
EVERYONE on that tile is invis.
gil
>
> In article <E3xvOc5jRhoSUoe7f=plFlB...@4ax.com>, Dorian
> <bond...@home.com> wrote:
> > <jnkwhite...@bellsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
> > >Lets see if I grasp this correctly. "Piling/Stacking" is the
> > abililty
> > >to stand on the same spot as another player, such as the "Wall"
> > in the
> > >bone knights room in Deceit, or the ability to push through a
> > passal of
> > >creatures surrounding you in Trammel.
> > >How can this EXPLOIT be fixed without screwing up the 2 examples
> > given
> > >above?
> > >
> > >Essota Dar
> > >Atlantic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Duh
>
> So your solution is not to change the ability to stack, but to change
> the enviroment around the exploit. You must work for the gummiment.
So your solution is to make it impossible for a char to walk
onto/through another char, so that chars can block each other with no
chance to push through in Feluccia, and allow all sorts of abuse with
char blocking in Trammel. You must work for OSI.
gil
Armand of Oceania
Which one do the newly spawned nasties see? Surely not both are invisible?
Armand
Master Archer
"Dundee" <Dun...@SPAMSPAMSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:396f8305....@news.swbell.net...
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:14:59 -0700, Essota Dar
> <jnkwhite...@bellsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Lets see if I grasp this correctly. "Piling/Stacking" is the abililty
> > to stand on the same spot as another player,
>
> The problem/exploit with piling/stacking is that the ability to stand on
the
> same spot as another player renders you invisible to newly spawned mobs.
>
> > such as the "Wall" in the bone knights room in Deceit, or the ability
to
> > push through a passal of creatures surrounding you in Trammel.
> > How can this EXPLOIT be fixed without screwing up the 2 examples given
> > above?
>
Paul Colquhoun
stacking, we all stand in the same place.
Sorry, I just couldn't resist ;-)
--
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, postm...@andor.dropbear.id.au
Universal Life Church http://andor.dropbear.id.au/~paulcol
-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
xenaphobia: The fear of being beaten to a pulp by
a leather-clad, New Zealand woman.
Katherine
expounded:
>> Prior to the patch, when two or more people stood in the same spot, monster
>> spawn couldn't "see" them. It was a useful strategy in treasure hunting,
>
>Foul. Using the word "strategy" interchangably with "exploit" is poor form,
>don't you think?
Only if you assume everyone considers it an exploit. When new players are
brought to treasure hunts and shown how to stack to avoid instant death,
they are unlikely to think "Gosh, an exploit." More likely they think,
"Good, another tactic for survival, like when they told me to cast spell
reflect before we left town."
I'm sure we could debate all day on the ethics of using minor "exploits"
like stacking, locking items down on doorsteps, and using BS/EV to kill
monsters without getting dangerously close, but it's probably a topic for
another thread.
Dundee
> Only if you assume everyone considers it an exploit.
Of course it is an exploit.
> When new players are brought to treasure hunts and shown how to
> stack to avoid instant death, they are unlikely to think "Gosh, an exploit."
> More likely they think, "Good, another tactic for survival, like when they
> told me to cast spell reflect before we left town."
But we know better, don't we?
> I'm sure we could debate all day on the ethics of using minor "exploits"
> like stacking, locking items down on doorsteps, and using BS/EV to kill
> monsters without getting dangerously close, but it's probably a topic for
> another thread.
No, actually, it is the topic of *this* thread.
--
http://home.swbell.net/skeptack/
Katherine
expounded:
>> Only if you assume everyone considers it an exploit.
>
>Of course it is an exploit.
That doesn't mean everyone considers it so; if they did there would be no
debate.
>> When new players are brought to treasure hunts and shown how to
>> stack to avoid instant death, they are unlikely to think "Gosh, an exploit."
>> More likely they think, "Good, another tactic for survival, like when they
>> told me to cast spell reflect before we left town."
>
>But we know better, don't we?
If I were planning to spend my time researching exploits and warning
newbies not to use them, I doubt piling is one I would start with. Locking
items down on house steps is also considered an exploit, but I'm not about
to go knocking on every stranger's door to warn them that their potted
plant is an exploit. Likewise if someone in the newsgroup says "what is
piling" I will tell them what it is, and leave the exploit debate up to
those who think piling has enough impact on game balance to warrant the
debate.
>> I'm sure we could debate all day on the ethics of using minor "exploits"
>> like stacking, locking items down on doorsteps, and using BS/EV to kill
>> monsters without getting dangerously close, but it's probably a topic for
>> another thread.
>
>No, actually, it is the topic of *this* thread.
That's true. I was mistaken. Sorry about that.
Drake
Katherine <ka...@mhn.org> wrote in message
news:397550dc...@news-server.nc.rr.com...
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:20:05 GMT, Dun...@SPAMSPAMSPAM.com (Dundee)
> expounded:
>
> >> Prior to the patch, when two or more people stood in the same spot,
monster
> >> spawn couldn't "see" them. It was a useful strategy in treasure
hunting,
> >
> >Foul. Using the word "strategy" interchangably with "exploit" is poor
form,
> >don't you think?
>
> brought to treasure hunts and shown how to stack to avoid instant death,
> they are unlikely to think "Gosh, an exploit." More likely they think,
> "Good, another tactic for survival, like when they told me to cast spell
> reflect before we left town."
Oh come on now. Casting reflect before leaving town and standing under a
horse to be made invisible to monsters? Not even the same league. See, one
is clearly an exploit, used by the cheesiest of the cheese. Any 5 minute
old character would have to ask, 'huh?, why aren't those monsters ripping my
face off?'
> I'm sure we could debate all day on the ethics of using minor "exploits"
> like stacking, locking items down on doorsteps, and using BS/EV to kill
> monsters without getting dangerously close, but it's probably a topic for
> another thread.
Minor is in the person viewing it. To me, its not minor at all, its a
festering sore that just jumps out ugly like and gets all over you anytime
you go to a dungeon anymore. An EV silly wasnt a bug to kill monsters with
little or no risk. It's a spell see? On the otherhand, standing under a
horse to make yourself invisible to surrounding spawn....if thats a 'minor
exploit' in your opinion....well then, wow, I'm major disappointed in you.
Katherine, you really see that as a minor exploit?
Dundee
> >> When new players are brought to treasure hunts and shown how to
> >> stack to avoid instant death, they are unlikely to think "Gosh, an exploit."
> >
> >But we know better, don't we?
>
> If I were planning to spend my time researching exploits and warning
> newbies not to use them, I doubt piling is one I would start with.
That's a far cry from actually using the exploit and teaching newbies to use
though, dontcha think?
> Likewise if someone in the newsgroup says "what is
> piling" I will tell them what it is, and leave the exploit debate up to
> those who think piling has enough impact on game balance to warrant the
> debate.
I think an exploit that renders you invisible to mobs has a considerable
impact on game balance. Hard to imagine that it wouldn't.
--
http://home.swbell.net/skeptack/
gil
>
> Katherine <ka...@mhn.org> wrote in message
> news:397550dc...@news-server.nc.rr.com...
> > On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:20:05 GMT, Dun...@SPAMSPAMSPAM.com (Dundee)
> > expounded:
> >
> > >> Prior to the patch, when two or more people stood in the same spot,
> monster
> > >> spawn couldn't "see" them. It was a useful strategy in treasure
> hunting,
> > >
> > >Foul. Using the word "strategy" interchangably with "exploit" is poor
> form,
> > >don't you think?
> >
> > brought to treasure hunts and shown how to stack to avoid instant death,
> > "Good, another tactic for survival, like when they told me to cast spell
> > reflect before we left town."
>
> Oh come on now. Casting reflect before leaving town and standing under a
> horse to be made invisible to monsters? Not even the same league. See, one
> is clearly an exploit, used by the cheesiest of the cheese. Any 5 minute
> old character would have to ask, 'huh?, why aren't those monsters ripping my
> face off?'
>
> > I'm sure we could debate all day on the ethics of using minor "exploits"
> > like stacking, locking items down on doorsteps, and using BS/EV to kill
> > monsters without getting dangerously close, but it's probably a topic for
> > another thread.
>
> Minor is in the person viewing it. To me, its not minor at all, its a
> festering sore that just jumps out ugly like and gets all over you anytime
> you go to a dungeon anymore. An EV silly wasnt a bug to kill monsters with
> little or no risk. It's a spell see? On the otherhand, standing under a
> horse to make yourself invisible to surrounding spawn....if thats a 'minor
> exploit' in your opinion....well then, wow, I'm major disappointed in you.
> Katherine, you really see that as a minor exploit?
I think you folks are being too hard on Katherine here, and missing an
important consideration. I agree that the stacking thing in itself is
an exploit, but I think it would benefit us to expand the analysis, to
include the intent. Katherine isn't exploiting to get to Illustrious,
or to break into a house to loot it, or to hack her stats, or for any
other unfair advantage or personal gain. She's talking about using this
exploit to help show newbies the game, in a similar way to OSI's "young"
program. To me, intent is important, and must be taken into
consideration. If I shoot and kill my neighbor, that's "wrong", right?
If my intent was to prevent him from molesting a child that he had
kidnapped, then I'd be "right", right (assuming no other way to protect
the child)? Intent is crucial.
I'm not saying intent makes using this exploit "right". I am saying
that intent does mitigate the "wrong". If Katherine was using this
exploit to loot lvl 5 chests by herself, that would be different. If
she doesn't explain that it's an exploit, and shouldn't be done except
to help new folks learn the game or for other unselfish purposes, that
would give the new folks the wrong impression of the tactic and so would
also be wrong.
Before someone points out that this is a slippery slope, you're right.
Life is full of slippery slopes. That's why judgement and perspective
are important :)
Considering all the jerks and all the exploits still going on, dumping
on Katherine for her use of this seems counterproductive. I'd much
rather make fun of nomam/shrieka, the drag-ons, and Mr. Personality
(dead lord) - wouldn't you?
gil
Rick Cortese
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:30:15 GMT, Dun...@SPAMSPAMSPAM.com (Dundee)
> expounded:
>
> >
>
> That doesn't mean everyone considers it so; if they did there would be no
> debate.
I had to Webster this;
Exploit, to use for one's own advantage; take advantage of.
I will grant that it may not be an exploit under OSI who defines what an
exploit is for the purposes of the game. But it is clearly exploiting the
monster AI or the programming in the conventional use of the word. Monsters
were meant to see you when you are standing next to them. Standing on top of
someone is not supposed to make you invisible, hiding and invisibility
spells are supposed to do that.
Not the kind of bug that I worry about people exploiting, maybe it makes a
dif on SP, but everywhere else you are just a couple of blade spirits, flame
strikes, and rez your treasure hunter away from riches anyway.
What it all comes down to the treasure hunter doesn't die a bunch of times,
everything else plays out exactly if it had gone down w/o stacking. The kind
of exploits where the end result is the same except for a bandage or some
reagents to rez a character are not grievious. I mean do a level 5 with
stacking and you end up with a bunch of loot, 5,000 gold, and another few
thousand from killing the spawned monsters. Do a level 5 map and you get all
of that, plus the treasure hunter dying 4-5 times. Impact is just not that
great, not like you get a castle and 300 str from it.
Katherine
>Minor is in the person viewing it. To me, its not minor at all, its a
>festering sore that just jumps out ugly like and gets all over you anytime
>you go to a dungeon anymore. An EV silly wasnt a bug to kill monsters with
>little or no risk. It's a spell see? On the otherhand, standing under a
>horse to make yourself invisible to surrounding spawn....if thats a 'minor
>exploit' in your opinion....well then, wow, I'm major disappointed in you.
>Katherine, you really see that as a minor exploit?
Perhaps it would be more serious to me if I saw it more often. I'm willing
to admit that since treasure-hunting or dungeon-diving are rare events for
me, I may not be able to see the seriousness of the impact. It probably
would not have occurred to me to think of it as an exploit if I hadn't read
the debates on this newsgroup; I would have classed it with getting
monsters hung on houses (arguably another exploit).
kh...@icqmail.com
<rico...@netmagic.net> wrote:
>What it all comes down to the treasure hunter doesn't die a bunch of times,
>everything else plays out exactly if it had gone down w/o stacking. The kind
>of exploits where the end result is the same except for a bandage or some
>reagents to rez a character are not grievious. I mean do a level 5 with
>stacking and you end up with a bunch of loot, 5,000 gold, and another few
>thousand from killing the spawned monsters. Do a level 5 map and you get all
>of that, plus the treasure hunter dying 4-5 times. Impact is just not that
>great, not like you get a castle and 300 str from it.
Dying 4-5 times?
Why not wait till you've dealt with the spawn before ressurecting him?
Little WhiteDove
<Dun...@SPAMSPAMSPAM.com> wrote:
|> Likewise if someone in the newsgroup says "what is
|> piling" I will tell them what it is, and leave the exploit debate up to
|> those who think piling has enough impact on game balance to warrant the
|> debate.
|
|I think an exploit that renders you invisible to mobs has a considerable
|impact on game balance. Hard to imagine that it wouldn't.
LFE has been doing maps, I'd estimate 10 high level per week, for well
over a year. We use 2 t-hunters at a time, leading 2 parties of often
10+ members each. I cannot begin to tell you the number of times EVERY
party member crashed the instant the chest was surfaced. Great fun to
have everyone die on a small island due to a mass disco.
Furthermore, when Kewlio comes bee-bopping up on screen there is no way
for us to protect our property without taking a count UNLESS we piled
and looted the chest. We'd ask them nicely to back off, he'd cuss us
out and start grabbing our items. We'd pile up, all loot as fast as we
could and Hello 3 Elder Gazers, Bye-Bye jerk. I would likely have been
red several times if not for stacking.
Since it has been fixed, LFE has come back multiple times with every
participant having taken an MC or two, because many times the jerks res
and come right back, often with friends. On one map, when most of us
were relatively new, our entire party of 11 was killed over the
contents of our chest.
It was never a matter of it was "easier", as teaching someone to pile
and waiting for stamina took forever, it was a matter of safety. I
currently do level 5 maps with a t-hunter and the 2 of us do
wonderfully well without stacking or using exploits of any kind. We
will eventually be taking MCs or dying, depending upon what has spawned
on us when the jerk squad shows up.
IMHO, the t-maps are just another example of OSI's poor design
capabilities. Screw em, it was worth our while to use it. If they won't
intentionally supply us a system for self-defense then we'll gladly use
their sloppy, accidental means.
OSI means nothing to me where as my guildmates mean a great deal. It's
an easy decision. The only one losing out in this situation is a jerk,
and I could care less about the plight of a grief player.
Little WhiteDove
|Minor is in the person viewing it. To me, its not minor at all, its a
|festering sore that just jumps out ugly like and gets all over you anytime
|you go to a dungeon anymore. An EV silly wasnt a bug to kill monsters with
|little or no risk. It's a spell see? On the otherhand, standing under a
|horse to make yourself invisible to surrounding spawn....if thats a 'minor
|exploit' in your opinion....well then, wow, I'm major disappointed in you.
|Katherine, you really see that as a minor exploit?
As far as I know, and I have likely been on every t-hunt that Kaffy has
done, she never stacked alone with her horse. It was never done in a
dungeon, it was never done anywhere EXCEPT on t-hunts. See my other
post in reply to Dundee...we could have easily killed the monsters, it
was a matter of self-defense from jerks, allowing newer players to
adventure with us, and protecting the disco'd players. If those are the
only "advantages" I don't see the problem. It was never used out of
greed or for skill boosting. *shrugs*
Rick Cortese
news:plt7ns846f9rard77...@4ax.com...
Subsequent spawn while removing items from the chest. Fixed now of course,
but I and friends were never lucky under the old system where the monsters
would hit you a couple of times before they even appeared on your screen.
This was pre Trammel too, so against something like an ogre lord, the first
hit would take 40-80 hit points and fatigue you so you couldn't run through
them.
People do stack for a reason, they don't like dying I guess. For us, we had
a rune marked to a healer. Treasure hunter would dig up the chest, die to
the spawn. We would kill the spawn, gate them to a healer and he would run
back into the same gate after getting rezed<strategy/exploit/smart play?>.
He would then start emptying the chest into a pack on the ground and maybe
lich lords or ogre lords would spawn 4-5 times during the process, killing
him every time. But he had a really bad connection, if anything faster then
an aligator spawned he was good as dead. Pre seasaw stats, so an elemental
would lay the smack down on him pretty good.
Like I said, all of this has changed with Trammel/UO:R now.
Dundee
<Dovey_A...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Furthermore, when Kewlio comes bee-bopping up on screen there is no way
>for us to protect our property without taking a count UNLESS we piled
>and looted the chest. We'd ask them nicely to back off, he'd cuss us
>out and start grabbing our items. We'd pile up, all loot as fast as we
>could and Hello 3 Elder Gazers, Bye-Bye jerk. I would likely have been
>red several times if not for stacking.
Like I said, just because a bug exploit is useful doesn't make it
right to use it.
>It was never a matter of it was "easier", as teaching someone to pile
>and waiting for stamina took forever, it was a matter of safety.
I never said it wasn't useful to exploit the bug. In fact I said if
it weren't useful, people wouldn't do it.
>IMHO, the t-maps are just another example of OSI's poor design
>capabilities. Screw em, it was worth our while to use it. If they won't
>intentionally supply us a system for self-defense then we'll gladly use
>their sloppy, accidental means.
The "it's ok to exploit bugs because it's OSI's fault that the bugs
exist" argument.
>OSI means nothing to me where as my guildmates mean a great deal. It's
>an easy decision. The only one losing out in this situation is a jerk,
>and I could care less about the plight of a grief player.
That there are grief players in UO is a different issue - has to do
with the fact that it is a massively multiplayer game. I'd think if
you don't want to play with grief players, you'd play something else.
Something without that first M in it.
On the other hand if you do decide to play in a game with grief
players, but then exploit a bug in order to give yourself an unfair
advantage over them, then I'd wonder why you don't just refer to that
as cheating.
"We cheat in order to give ourselves an unfair advantage over jerks"
is what you're saying.
Which is fine, if that's you're attitude. It's just another reason
massively multiplayer games suck, though.
Dundee
>I think you folks are being too hard on Katherine here, and missing an
>important consideration.
Not being hard on the person, but on the argument: "It's ok to cheat
as long as it gives you an unfair advantage over jerks, and/or allows
you to bypass what you consider to be bad design decision on OSI's
part."
> I agree that the stacking thing in itself is
>an exploit, but I think it would benefit us to expand the analysis, to
>include the intent.
See Little WhiteDove's post.
>Katherine isn't exploiting to get to Illustrious,
>or to break into a house to loot it, or to hack her stats, or for any
>other unfair advantage or personal gain. She's talking about using this
>exploit to help show newbies the game, in a similar way to OSI's "young"
>program.
Also, to give her and her guildmates an unfair advantage over other
players in the game.
>To me, intent is important, and must be taken into consideration.
Even with the "We just do it to avoid the initial spawn"-argument:
Say you designed treasure chests. You designed them so that popping
the chest would make lots of hard mobs pop out all at the same time.
You could have done it differently, but for whatever reason you
decided that it would be a good idea for all the mobs to pop out at
the same time.
Now a player comes along and finds a bug which allows them to bypass
that entirely. It's "ok" for them to use the bug, because they think
your decision to make the mobs all pop out at the same time was a
stupid decision.
>I'm not saying intent makes using this exploit "right". I am saying
>that intent does mitigate the "wrong".
Ok, but I don't think anyone is saying they're bad people for using
the exploit. I'm just rejecting the arguments that it isn't "really"
an exploit on account of it being useful against jerks, or useful
against "bad design". I'm just saying that the reason a bug exploit
is useful has nothing to do with whether it is really a bug exploit.
Also that using a bug to gain unfair advantage over other players is
cheating, even if those other players are jerks.
>If she doesn't explain that it's an exploit, and shouldn't be done except
>to help new folks learn the game or for other unselfish purposes, that
>would give the new folks the wrong impression of the tactic and so would
>also be wrong.
I don't agree that it is ok to show new people how to exploit bugs,
then tell the new people that exploiting bugs is ok, as long as you
think you're exploiting the bug for a good reason.
>Before someone points out that this is a slippery slope, you're right.
>Life is full of slippery slopes. That's why judgement and perspective
>are important :)
I never bought into the "slippery slope" argument so much as I just
think that cheating is cheating whether you're competing against a
jerk or not. And bug exploits are bug exploits no matter why you're
using them.
I had armor that gave me AR65 once upon a time, and Glaeken had
AR80-something. I think if we had put that armor on and run out
killing people, we'd have been cheating, even if the people we were
killing were jerks. Not to say that we didn't think about doing it
anyway, just that I wouldn't try to claim that wasn't "really"
cheating on acount of the ends justifying the means.
Let's say you wanted to use the boat breakin bug to loot a tower.
Would it be ok, so long as the owners of the tower were bad people?
>Considering all the jerks and all the exploits still going on, dumping
>on Katherine for her use of this seems counterproductive.
Don't mean to dump on her so much as to respond to the assertion that
"cheating isn't really cheating if..." line of arguments. I just
disagree.
Little WhiteDove
<Dun...@NOSPAM.COM> wrote:
|On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:46:41 -0400, Little WhiteDove
|<Dovey_A...@yahoo.com> wrote:
|
|>Furthermore, when Kewlio comes bee-bopping up on screen there is no way
|>for us to protect our property without taking a count UNLESS we piled
|>and looted the chest. We'd ask them nicely to back off, he'd cuss us
|>out and start grabbing our items. We'd pile up, all loot as fast as we
|>could and Hello 3 Elder Gazers, Bye-Bye jerk. I would likely have been
|>red several times if not for stacking.
|
|Like I said, just because a bug exploit is useful doesn't make it
|right to use it.
True, but there's only so much I'll tolerate.
|>It was never a matter of it was "easier", as teaching someone to pile
|>and waiting for stamina took forever, it was a matter of safety.
|
|I never said it wasn't useful to exploit the bug. In fact I said if
|it weren't useful, people wouldn't do it.
I think it goes beyond useful. OSI's "rules" made it a necessity.
|>IMHO, the t-maps are just another example of OSI's poor design
|>capabilities. Screw em, it was worth our while to use it. If they won't
|>intentionally supply us a system for self-defense then we'll gladly use
|>their sloppy, accidental means.
|
|The "it's ok to exploit bugs because it's OSI's fault that the bugs
|exist" argument.
No, not that the exploit existed, but because of the LACK of
self-defense. If we'd had a "legal" recourse aside from going red we
would have opted for that instead.
|>OSI means nothing to me where as my guildmates mean a great deal. It's
|>an easy decision. The only one losing out in this situation is a jerk,
|>and I could care less about the plight of a grief player.
|
|That there are grief players in UO is a different issue - has to do
|with the fact that it is a massively multiplayer game. I'd think if
|you don't want to play with grief players, you'd play something else.
|Something without that first M in it.
I don't mind grief players, especially when 3 elder gazers are munching
on them :P I would hardly be coordinating large t-hunt parties if an
MMRPG was not to my tastes. But I refuse to let my time and efforts AND
the time and efforts of a large group be wasted when there is an option
that may negatively effect ONE person with bad intent.
Choice A: hand over all the loot. No, it's rightfully ours. This does
not discourage jerk behavior.
Choice B: have everyone take MCs. No, then we are stuck working off
counts instead of playing.
Choice C: Stack up and watch the creep die. Maybe next time he'll think
twice before bothering people. Even if not, we get our stuff, no MCs
and a good chuckle to boot.
|On the other hand if you do decide to play in a game with grief
|players, but then exploit a bug in order to give yourself an unfair
|advantage over them, then I'd wonder why you don't just refer to that
|as cheating.
|
|"We cheat in order to give ourselves an unfair advantage over jerks"
|is what you're saying.
|
|Which is fine, if that's you're attitude. It's just another reason
|massively multiplayer games suck, though.
We do not bother those players who are kind. If someone messes with us,
then their disadvantage does not keep me awake at nights. We will gank,
we will take counts when absolutely necessary, we will protect our
friends and our possessions. If OSI wants to ban me when a jerk died
because I gave the order to stack, I will accept that consequence. It
would not have been a surprise. I would rather be banned then have a
guildmate or 10 go red over the command to attack a blue. I would
rather be banned than have 10 people stand and watch their hard earned
items disappear to a jerk.
Perhaps it's not up to your ethical standards, but I have no regrets
and would do it again should the need arise.
Dorian
<Dovey_A...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In article <397378bb....@news.swbell.net>, Dundee
><Dun...@SPAMSPAMSPAM.com> wrote:
>
>|> Likewise if someone in the newsgroup says "what is
>|> piling" I will tell them what it is, and leave the exploit debate up to
>|> those who think piling has enough impact on game balance to warrant the
>|> debate.
>|
>|I think an exploit that renders you invisible to mobs has a considerable
>|impact on game balance. Hard to imagine that it wouldn't.
>
>LFE has been doing maps, I'd estimate 10 high level per week, for well
>over a year. We use 2 t-hunters at a time, leading 2 parties of often
>10+ members each. I cannot begin to tell you the number of times EVERY
>party member crashed the instant the chest was surfaced. Great fun to
>have everyone die on a small island due to a mass disco.
>
>Furthermore, when Kewlio comes bee-bopping up on screen there is no way
>for us to protect our property without taking a count UNLESS we piled
>and looted the chest. We'd ask them nicely to back off, he'd cuss us
>out and start grabbing our items. We'd pile up, all loot as fast as we
>could and Hello 3 Elder Gazers, Bye-Bye jerk. I would likely have been
>red several times if not for stacking.
>
>Since it has been fixed, LFE has come back multiple times with every
>participant having taken an MC or two, because many times the jerks res
>and come right back, often with friends. On one map, when most of us
>were relatively new, our entire party of 11 was killed over the
>contents of our chest.
>
>It was never a matter of it was "easier", as teaching someone to pile
>and waiting for stamina took forever, it was a matter of safety. I
>currently do level 5 maps with a t-hunter and the 2 of us do
>wonderfully well without stacking or using exploits of any kind. We
>will eventually be taking MCs or dying, depending upon what has spawned
>on us when the jerk squad shows up.
>
>IMHO, the t-maps are just another example of OSI's poor design
>capabilities. Screw em, it was worth our while to use it. If they won't
>intentionally supply us a system for self-defense then we'll gladly use
>their sloppy, accidental means.
>
>OSI means nothing to me where as my guildmates mean a great deal. It's
>an easy decision. The only one losing out in this situation is a jerk,
>and I could care less about the plight of a grief player.
>
>-Little WhiteDove
>Badb Catha, Lia Fail Empire
>Atlantic
Looting a T Chest in felucca turns you grey now :)
Little WhiteDove
<bond...@home.com> wrote:
|Looting a T Chest in felucca turns you grey now :)
Yep, and stacking no longer works so I'm unsure why we are even having
this discussion in the first place rofl.
Dorian
It due to the fact that stacking is a bug, and like most, it can be
used for good, or for grief. When i taught it to everyone here, the
dewds hadnt found a grief use for it. With trammel, every dewd is
using it for grief. :(
Katherine
>Not being hard on the person, but on the argument: "It's ok to cheat
>as long as it gives you an unfair advantage over jerks, and/or allows
>you to bypass what you consider to be bad design decision on OSI's
>part."
Please get your attributions straight. Those are not my arguments.
Drake
news:180720001325209099%Dovey_A...@yahoo.com...
> In article <fpF0OR24Ko0Ucj...@4ax.com>, Dorian
> <bond...@home.com> wrote:
>
> |Looting a T Chest in felucca turns you grey now :)
>
> Yep, and stacking no longer works so I'm unsure why we are even having
> this discussion in the first place rofl.
Oooo, unless it's been fixed since this morning, I think you need to check
your facts.
Little WhiteDove
Hmm. Well it was fixed at one point...I haven't tried since then.
Typical OSI hehe.
Dorian
>Little WhiteDove <Dovey_A...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:180720001325209099%Dovey_A...@yahoo.com...
>> In article <fpF0OR24Ko0Ucj...@4ax.com>, Dorian
>> <bond...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>> |Looting a T Chest in felucca turns you grey now :)
>>
>> Yep, and stacking no longer works so I'm unsure why we are even having
>> this discussion in the first place rofl.
>
>Oooo, unless it's been fixed since this morning, I think you need to check
>your facts.
>
Shes referring to stacking in regards to treasure hunting. OSI fixed
the non grief aspect of stacking, without fixing the whole problem.
Otara
<Dovey_A...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>OSI means nothing to me where as my guildmates mean a great deal. It's
>an easy decision. The only one losing out in this situation is a jerk,
>and I could care less about the plight of a grief player.
>
>Badb Catha, Lia Fail Empire
>Atlantic
Arent they fixing TC looting?
Otara
Otara
>I had armor that gave me AR65 once upon a time, and Glaeken had
>AR80-something. I think if we had put that armor on and run out
>killing people, we'd have been cheating, even if the people we were
>killing were jerks. Not to say that we didn't think about doing it
>anyway, just that I wouldn't try to claim that wasn't "really"
>cheating on acount of the ends justifying the means.
Err - you did. I specifically remmber the story you told about
finding the armour and putting it on to go and exact retribution.
Otara
Greywind
what is the grief aspect of stacking?
Dorian
>
>
>
>what is the grief aspect of stacking?
Training a PE, casting invis, then hopping off your horse and telling
it to stay. Even if you are revealed the PE cant see you.
Thats just one example.
Dundee
> Err - you did. I specifically remmber the story you told about
> finding the armour and putting it on to go and exact retribution.
Hmm.... don't recall doing more than thinking about it. I do remember
posting something like "I'm cheating and I just can't stop" because I'd paged
a GM about it and he said he'd get back to me, and I was wondering if I
needed to tote it around until he got back to me or if I could bank it. Raph
replied that I could put it in the bank, but that the bug would be fixed in
the morning so it didn't matter.
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Dundee
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:40:58 GMT, Dun...@NOSPAM.COM (Dundee) expounded:
>
> >Not being hard on the person, but on the argument: "It's ok to cheat
> >as long as it gives you an unfair advantage over jerks, and/or allows
> >you to bypass what you consider to be bad design decision on OSI's
> >part."
>
> Please get your attributions straight. Those are not my arguments.
Ok. Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. Clarify, please?
> " It was a useful strategy in treasure hunting,"
So what?
> "Only if you assume everyone considers it an exploit."
It's only an exploit if everyone agrees that it's an exploit? That is your
position?
> When new players are brought to treasure hunts and shown how to
> stack to avoid instant death, they are unlikely to think "Gosh, an
> exploit."
And since newbies won't think it's an exploit, that means not everyone agrees
it is an exploit. So it isn't?
Hrm...
--
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Dundee
<Dovey_A...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> |Like I said, just because a bug exploit is useful doesn't make it
> |right to use it.
>
> True, but there's only so much I'll tolerate.
Fair enough. :-)
> |The "it's ok to exploit bugs because it's OSI's fault that the bugs
> |exist" argument.
>
> No, not that the exploit existed, but because of the LACK of
> self-defense. If we'd had a "legal" recourse aside from going red we
> would have opted for that instead.
I'd call that a bug (the fact that looting someone else's chest didn't turn
them grey, or in Trammel that they were able to loot someone else's chest at
all).
Not that I wouldn't have done the exact same thing, just that I wouldn't
refer to an exploit as "good strategy".
> We do not bother those players who are kind. If someone messes with us,
> then their disadvantage does not keep me awake at nights. We will gank,
> we will take counts when absolutely necessary, we will protect our
> friends and our possessions.
Including using bugs against them? Presumably you would draw the line
somewhere: one-shot weapons, etc. Or not even then?
> Perhaps it's not up to your ethical standards, but I have no regrets
> and would do it again should the need arise.
*My* ethical standards? Hrm... Don't think I would think twice about
stacking, but I wouldn't use a bug to loot their houses or insta-kill them
with a buggy weapon, etc.
I'm just saying, I personally wouldn't rationalize that an exploit isn't an
exploit so long as it is useful against jerks, or useful to overcome bad
game-design, other bugs, etc. All I'm saying is, it's still an exploit.
I used UOA before it was "approved". And when OSI said you couldn't use
un-approved third part programs under penalty of death, I still used UOA.
I just never claimed that it wasn't cheating, is all.
Or maybe I did. Hard to remember. If I did, I shouldn't have. :P
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Little WhiteDove
Dundee wrote in message <3975cfe2....@news.swbell.net>...
>On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:43:08 -0400, Little WhiteDove
><Dovey_A...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> |The "it's ok to exploit bugs because it's OSI's fault that the bugs
>> |exist" argument.
>>
>> No, not that the exploit existed, but because of the LACK of
>> self-defense. If we'd had a "legal" recourse aside from going red we
>> would have opted for that instead.
>
>I'd call that a bug (the fact that looting someone else's chest didn't turn
>them grey, or in Trammel that they were able to loot someone else's chest
at
>all).
>
>Not that I wouldn't have done the exact same thing, just that I wouldn't
>refer to an exploit as "good strategy".
Perhaps not a "good" strategy, as in the angelic sense of the word "good",
but an effective one nonetheless.
>> We do not bother those players who are kind. If someone messes with us,
>> then their disadvantage does not keep me awake at nights. We will gank,
>> we will take counts when absolutely necessary, we will protect our
>> friends and our possessions.
>
>Including using bugs against them? Presumably you would draw the line
>somewhere: one-shot weapons, etc. Or not even then?
To my rather selective memory, this was the only bug we ever used :P
>> Perhaps it's not up to your ethical standards, but I have no regrets
>> and would do it again should the need arise.
>
>*My* ethical standards? Hrm... Don't think I would think twice about
>stacking, but I wouldn't use a bug to loot their houses or insta-kill them
>with a buggy weapon, etc.
>
>I'm just saying, I personally wouldn't rationalize that an exploit isn't an
>exploit so long as it is useful against jerks, or useful to overcome bad
>game-design, other bugs, etc. All I'm saying is, it's still an exploit.
>
>I used UOA before it was "approved". And when OSI said you couldn't use
>un-approved third part programs under penalty of death, I still used UOA.
>
>I just never claimed that it wasn't cheating, is all.
>
>Or maybe I did. Hard to remember. If I did, I shouldn't have. :P
To me, an exploit or to cheat is something "bad". Had the jerk not TRIED to
bother us in the first place, having had always given them warning, then
nothing would have happened to them. Texas law perhaps? What we did I cannot
make myself say was a bad thing. It was bad for the jerk, and bad for OSI's
TOS, but just as I don't feel bad for the mosquito when I squish it as it
tries to take my blood, I have no sympathy for either of these parties.
Katherine
expounded:
>> >Not being hard on the person, but on the argument: "It's ok to cheat
>> >as long as it gives you an unfair advantage over jerks, and/or allows
>> >you to bypass what you consider to be bad design decision on OSI's
>> >part."
>>
>> Please get your attributions straight. Those are not my arguments.
>
>Ok. Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. Clarify, please?
You seemed to be summing up Dove's arguments, and using them as your reason
for debating me. Not that I necessarily disagree with hers, but I'm not
the one who originally brought them up. And what they had to do with my
quoted text below is beyond me.
>> " It was a useful strategy in treasure hunting,"
>
>So what?
So it's useful, and that's why it was being discussed in the first place.
Nothing more or less.
>> "Only if you assume everyone considers it an exploit."
>
>It's only an exploit if everyone agrees that it's an exploit? That is your
>position?
What I was replying to from you was, "Foul. Using the word "strategy"
interchangably with "exploit" is poor form, don't you think?" My position
is that I was merely answering someone else's query about piling/stacking,
making no statement one way or another about whether they were an exploit,
and having someone come in and imply that I am an exploiter is IMO uncalled
for. As a result I replied defensively.
If you wish to believe I am an evil exploiter because I made use of the
piling bug on treasure hunts, so be it. Until I was attacked here I didn't
even know it wasn't a deliberate part of game design, so that new players
COULD go treasure-hunting as a group. Therefore I submit that it is not
obvious this practice is an exploit.
Otara
back past mid 1999ish, which is a bit disappointing.
Had something in it about you looking thru your chest going 'hmm what
have here, ar 65 plate', etc, etc, and then you going off and wiping
someone or someones.
Maybe I got the ending wrong.
Otara
On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:17:11 GMT, Dun...@SPAMSPAMSPAM.com (Dundee)
wrote:
Peter Miller
>On Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:57:26 GMT, ka...@mhn.org (Katherine) wrote:
>> Only if you assume everyone considers it an exploit.
>
>Of course it is an exploit.
Of course it is an exploit. All tactics are exploits. The term only exists
because it's vague enough to be applied in any situation where something
needs to be declared improper. When it isn't in the spirit of the game, when
it confers an excessive advantage and, the more cynical among us might
suggest, when it makes OSI look silly...
Peter
--
{Peter Miller AKA Clan Grant ICQ:37501548 IRC:Darkyoung AIM:LordMiller}
{ "Mongbat for sale!" --Heard in the vicinity of the Bank of Moonglow. }
{ Britannian Tabloid: http://go.to/brittsizzler Grant(at)wgp(dot)org}
Dundee
> the one who originally brought them up. And what they had to do with my
> quoted text below is beyond me.
>
> >> " It was a useful strategy in treasure hunting,"
> >
> >So what?
>
> So it's useful, and that's why it was being discussed in the first place.
> Nothing more or less.
Eh? The thread is about, and has been from the beginning, "Is stacking an
exploit or not?". Posting "It's a useful strategy" seemed to my feeble wit
that you were of the "It's not" opinion.
Because? I don't know. All you would say to illuminate that point was:
> >> "Only if you assume everyone considers it an exploit."
> >
> >It's only an exploit if everyone agrees that it's an exploit? That is your
> >position?
>
> What I was replying to from you was, "Foul. Using the word "strategy"
> interchangably with "exploit" is poor form, don't you think?" My position
> is that I was merely answering someone else's query about piling/stacking,
> making no statement one way or another about whether they were an exploit,
Ok.
> and having someone come in and imply that I am an exploiter is IMO uncalled
> for. As a result I replied defensively.
I'm not implying that you are an exploiter. I'm saying that if you used the
stacking exploit then you were exploiting, and that's it.
Sort of the difference between lying, and being a liar. Like: I've told an
untruth a time or two in my lifetime, but I'm not a liar. So you used the
stacking exploit, and I say that's exploiting. But I'm not calling you an
exploiter, nor even implying it.
> If you wish to believe I am an evil exploiter because I made use of the
> piling bug on treasure hunts, so be it.
No, I believe you are a good exploiter, not an evil one. :P
> Until I was attacked here
Goodness, I'm not attacking you.
> I didn't even know it wasn't a deliberate part of game design,
Ah.
> so that new players COULD go treasure-hunting as a group.
Wouldn't it have been easier to just make mongbats spawn from level 5 chests
instead?
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