Comments from the Dev Team
Dundee
For some time now the Dev Team has been developing a plan to further
reduce antisocial behavior in Britannia. The first stage of these
plans is tackling the problem of rampant thievery. Today we're
presenting our plan for both reducing the amount of player-vs-player
theft, and making the rogue a more viable profession. We hope to see
much discussion of this plan amongst the players of Ultima Online.
Creating the adventurer rogue
The thief is a classic roleplaying profession. However, the thieves in
Britannia do not tend to conform to the classic mold. Our desire is to
strengthen the role of the adventuring rogue so that those who seek an
outlet for playing thieves may do so in a way that does not damage the
experience of other players. Therefore, half of our plan actually
focuses on making rogues a more powerful and interesting to play.
New skills
The Detect Hidden skill will gain the ability to detect traps. This
will work on dungeon traps as well as chests trapped by tinkers. It
will function just like now, with a range around the location where
you are looking based on the skill of the rogue. At higher levels,
simple traps may be automatically detected just by coming into range
of them. Another new skill will allow the actual disarming of these
traps. This skill will require that the rogue have a certain level of
ability in both Detect Hidden and Lockpicking to be able to even learn
the skill. Another new skill, the Stealth skill, will allow movement
while hidden. This skill will likely require a high level of the
Hiding skill to even be able to learn. The addition of these skills
without raising the skill cap will give more depth to the rogue
profession and increase variety among player characters.
Opportunities to use these skills
Dungeons will become a more dangerous place with the addition of traps
that will appear randomly in various locations, including on doors and
just on the floors, when appropriate. These traps will be invisible
except to those who have the ability to detect them.
New sorts of traps will likely appear, expanding the range beyond just
explosions, poison and damage. Expect traps that suck mana, that cause
drunkenness, or that affect stats temporarily in a manner akin to the
Clumsy spell.
In addition, chests in dungeons and elsewhere will begin to fill with
items appropriate to the location (for example, crates in the miner's
guild might well fill with ore and ingots, whereas chests in the
dungeon will generate treasure and magical items). These containers,
naturally enough, will be locked (with locks of difficulty based on
the goodies contained within) and perhaps also trapped.
We are aware of the concerns that many players have that dungeons will
be untraversable without the assistance of a rogue. We will be
striving hard to reach a good balance point so that rogues are highly
desirable yet not absolutely necessary for dungeon adventuring.
Armor restrictions
Hiding, Stealing, and Stealth skills will all be affected by armor
restrictions. This will work similarly to the restrictions put in
place on the Meditation skill: the overall armor worn on the body will
affect your success rate. Lockpicking and Disarm Trap will be affected
by the use of gloves.
The true thief
Thieves' Guild
The flip side of these changes is that we will be tackling the problem
of the player-vs-player thief, henceforth referred to as the PvP
thief. Those who do still follow this profession will be selected for
their skill and dedication to playing the role of a thief and con
artist. To this end, we are flatly disallowing the use of the Stealing
skill on other players, unless the thief is a member of the NPC
Thieves' Guild. Lord British has granted a charter to this guild to
exist, but for the sake of retaining royal favor, the Guildmasters of
the Thieves' Guild have placed tight restrictions on their members.
Requirements
To join the Thieves' Guild, you will be required to meet several
restrictions.
First, your character must have existed for at least one week.
Brand-new characters will not be accepted, for the Thieves' Guild
feels that given its tenuous standing as an official guild, only
moderately well-established thieves should be members.
Secondly, your character may not have any murders to his name. Only
those who have no murder count are accepted into the Guild. The
Guildmasters feel that killers ruin the reputation of the Guild, and
jeopardize its acceptance as a legitimate guild of Britannia. For this
reason, being reported for murder whilst a member of the Thieves'
Guild will result in immediate summary expulsion, and a ban on
rejoining for some period of time.
Thirdly, you have to be a good enough thief. This will likely require
minimum skill levels in several different skills such as Stealing and
Snooping. Dilettantes and throwaway characters need not apply; the
Guildmasters wish to have only the most qualified thieves in the
business working for them.
It is possible that membership in the Thieves' Guild will require
ongoing fees.
Attackability in town
Membership in the Thieves' Guild is not public; people will generally
not be aware that you are a thief who may PvP steal. This is a good
thing, since as part of their bargaining with Lord British, the
Guildmasters have surrendered the right to report others for their
murder. If you are a thief, you can and will be killed with impunity,
and no repercussions shall result for the killer, because you will not
be able to report them for murder.
In towns, the proscription against starting fights still applies, so
even Thieves' Guild members will be safe from random attack, even if
everyone knows of their affiliation. An attack in town is still
punishable by calling the guards.
Forensic evaluation
Alas, the Thieves' Guild does have an enemy, and it is the tireless
detectives who have mastered the skill of Forensic Evaluation. Those
with this ability will be able to focus their deductive powers on
people and determine whether or not they are truly what they represent
themselves as, or whether they are members of the Thieves' Guild.
The recipe for the successful Thieves' Guild member is thus the role
of con artist. They must seem innocent so detectives are rarely
prompted to investigate them. We strongly suggest that thieves acquire
an extensive wardrobe and copious quantities of hair dye, so that they
may frequently change their appearance. Use of the incognito spell is
also advised. The successful thief will be the one who acts in all
ways like an innocent player of some other profession, exercising
their thiefly abilities in secret, and changing identities often. Fame
will be anathema to the good member of the Thieves' Guild, because if
their cover is blown, they will likely perish several times over. They
will have to lull others into a false sense of security, and choose
the most appropriate times for their theft.
Leaving the guild
Like any NPC guild, you can quit by finding a Guildmaster and telling
him that you quit. However, the Thieves' Guild will not let go easily.
When you join, you are not allowed to leave the guild for one week.
The "provoker-thief"
One of the typical techniques of the thieves that exist today is that
they steal from you in order to provoke you into attacking them and
thus acquiring an aggressor flag. Then they kill you and loot your
corpse, knowing that as an aggressor you will be unable to report them
for murder. However, this tactic will no longer be feasible under the
new Thieves' Guild system. For two minutes after stealing, the member
of the Thieves' Guild is freely attackable by anyone in the area
including his victim-not even an aggressor flag will apply to those
that attack him.
Guild wars
Players participating in guild wars will still be able to use the
stealing skill against opponents, regardless of membership in the
Thieves Guild.
Additional changes
Detecting hidden in houses
As a benefit to those struggling with the problem of thieves hiding in
their houses, the Detect Hidden skill will instantly reveal anyone
hidden in your house, regardless of where they are and regardless of
your skill level. Owners and friends alike will have this capability,
on the grounds that they know their house and its hiding places better
than any stranger.
Theft changes
We will be reviewing the success rate for stealing, and changing the
way success is arrived at. There will be four outcomes to an attempt:
success in getting the item and nobody noticed (true success), success
in getting the item, but you were noticed, failure to get the item but
nobody noticed, and lastly, failure to get the item plus people saw
you try (true failure).
Forensics
The Forensic Evaluation skill will also be able to determine who has
recently picked locks on locked containers.
A final word
This is only the first step in our plans to reduce antisocial behavior
in Britannia. The next area we will tackle is the existence of the
so-called "blue PKs," those players who finesse the reputation system
to murder without taking the consequences of their actions.
-The UO Dev Team
--
Dundee of Lake Superior - SkeptAck AT antisocial DOT com
The Town of Skara Brae: http://members.xoom.com/skara/
UO related stuff: http://dundee.uong.com
Dundee
wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the implications here:
"For two minutes after stealing, the member of the Thieves' Guild is
freely attackable by anyone in the area including his victim-not even
an aggressor flag will apply to those that attack him. "
Does this mean if the thief kills the victim (or anyone else that
attacks him during this time), then he's reported for murder?
If not - then what is the difference between this and the crim' flag
that already applies?
If so - then why is this so different from just giving stealing an
agg' flag?
Confusing.
Tyler Novak
Dundee <Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard> wrote:
>On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 21:11:43 GMT, Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard (Dundee)
>wrote:
>
>I'm not sure I understand the implications here:
>
>freely attackable by anyone in the area including his victim-not even
>an aggressor flag will apply to those that attack him. "
Who ever attacks the thief does not have the aggressor flag set.
>Does this mean if the thief kills the victim (or anyone else that
>attacks him during this time), then he's reported for murder?
Yes he can be reported for murder.
>If not - then what is the difference between this and the crim' flag
>that already applies?
If a thief steals from you and you try to kill him and you die you cannot
report him because you were the aggressor.
>If so - then why is this so different from just giving stealing an
>agg' flag?
Big difference is suicide. Thief steals from me. I recall home and
start drinking purple potions. The thief then has a murder count even
though I killed my self.
Thus an aggresor flag is bad.
The situation they are going for is as follows. Or at least this is how
I see it.
If you steal you cannot kill. Period. Even if you kill someone you stole
from in self defense you are reported as a murderer. So if you're caught
stealing your only option is to run like hell.
Does my post make sense?
--
Tyler Novak -----E-mail----- harl at upl dot cs dot wisc dot edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-From the attic came an unearthly howl. The whole scene had an eerie,
surreal quality, like when you're on vacation in another city and
Quentin
>Does this mean if the thief kills the victim (or anyone else that
>attacks him during this time), then he's reported for murder?
The way I understand it yes.
>
>If not - then what is the difference between this and the crim' flag
>that already applies?
If not there is no real difference.
>
>If so - then why is this so different from just giving stealing an
>agg' flag?
If you had paid atention to the first part this would be obvious. A thief
has to join the Theif Guild to steal from you. If he steals and you attack
him he is still the agressor. He kills you he now has a murder count and is
kicked out of the Guild for some set time hence he looses his ability to
steal. ( i.e. he is no longer a theif. )
>
>Confusing.
Hope this clears it up for you I may be wrong here but this is the way I
understand it.
Quentin GM Swordsman of Atlantic
Tyler Novak
Quentin <Hap...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>If you had paid atention to the first part this would be obvious. A thief
>has to join the Theif Guild to steal from you. If he steals and you attack
>him he is still the agressor. He kills you he now has a murder count and is
>kicked out of the Guild for some set time hence he looses his ability to
>steal. ( i.e. he is no longer a theif. )
Technically the thief is not the agressor. But since you _don't_ have
an agressor flag set in relation to the thief if you die you can report
him.
If the thief had an agressor flag for stealing the following would be
possible.
1. Thief steals from you.
2. Thief runs like hell on his horse.
3. You recall home.
4. You kill your self.
5. Thief get's murder count and kicked out of the guild.
Since the thief has no agressor flag he has to damage you before you
can die and report him.
>>Confusing.
Very.
--
Tyler Novak -----E-mail----- harl at upl dot cs dot wisc dot edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
How much C could a C + + if a C + could + C?
Damocles
wrote:
>
>If so - then why is this so different from just giving stealing an
>agg' flag?
>
>Confusing.
Tyler explained it nicely. Basically it's to prevent suiciding on
thieves the way you can on blue pkillers now.
Very nice plan, only thing I would change is make it a permanent flag
like it is now, with the ability to attack Thieves Guild members in
town. As it stands now, I'm not sure how town theft will be handled
under this system.
gil
>
> The Plans for Thieves Feb 4 1999 3:15PM
> Detecting hidden in houses
> As a benefit to those struggling with the problem of thieves hiding in
> their houses, the Detect Hidden skill will instantly reveal anyone
> hidden in your house, regardless of where they are and regardless of
> your skill level. Owners and friends alike will have this capability,
> on the grounds that they know their house and its hiding places better
> than any stranger.
Will using detect hidden in this situation raise the DH skill? Many of
us don't want that skill. I realize that detection will be "automatic",
even at low DH skill level, and so DH won't have to be very high. But
for those at the skill cap, using DH, especially at low skill level,
will raise DH and cause a corresponding loss of valued skills.
Please make it so friends/owners using DH in their house doesn't result
in a skill check that raises DH. Perhaps use an option from the house
menu (including saying something like "I reveal thee")?
rend
gil'lomion LS
Davian
>
> On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 21:11:43 GMT, Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard (Dundee)
> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure I understand the implications here:
>
> freely attackable by anyone in the area including his victim-not even
> an aggressor flag will apply to those that attack him. "
>
> attacks him during this time), then he's reported for murder?
>
> that already applies?
>
> agg' flag?
Hmm... If it does.... then it would in effect be the agressor flag...
but the difference would be that the thief would have to kill the
person. A suicide when the thief made no agressive moves (other than
stealing) wouldn't count... with a normal agressor flag, it would.
Davian
greywolf
hours? 16 hours? We gonna have a bunch of macroing thieves now?
Simple solution to it all. Make Noto-query automatic, so if you accidently
attack somebody you don't want to you will ALWAYS be asked if this is what
you want. Then make a character a murderer forever and always even if they
only have one kill. Gee, they only killed 4 people so they aren't really a
murderer. Gee they haven't killed 5 or more people in the last 8 hours so
they really aren't a murderer.
That is so ridiculous. One murder you are red forever and always. Add it
to the ideas on tank thieves and you have your blue pk tank thief murderer
problem solved along with a most of the other blue PK's
It is time for the citizens to rise up and declare that murder is murder
starting with the first death.
If people want to be a pk fine, chose that life but you should be red ALL
the time. No going back.
Quentin wrote in message ...
>
>>Does this mean if the thief kills the victim (or anyone else that
>>attacks him during this time), then he's reported for murder?
>
>The way I understand it yes.
>>
>>If not - then what is the difference between this and the crim' flag
>>that already applies?
>
>
>If not there is no real difference.
>
>>
>>If so - then why is this so different from just giving stealing an
>>agg' flag?
>
>
>If you had paid atention to the first part this would be obvious. A thief
>has to join the Theif Guild to steal from you. If he steals and you attack
>him he is still the agressor. He kills you he now has a murder count and is
>kicked out of the Guild for some set time hence he looses his ability to
>steal. ( i.e. he is no longer a theif. )
>
>>
>>Confusing.
>
>
>Hope this clears it up for you I may be wrong here but this is the way I
>understand it.
>
>Quentin GM Swordsman of Atlantic
>
>>
Keremadec
have a certain skill % to join, lets say in stealing, but i can no longer steal
from players who do i practice stealing on now. just a thought
David Veal
> On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 21:11:43 GMT, Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard (Dundee)
> wrote:
> I'm not sure I understand the implications here:
>
> freely attackable by anyone in the area including his victim-not even
> an aggressor flag will apply to those that attack him. "
>
> attacks him during this time), then he's reported for murder?
>
> that already applies?
I think it does mean that the thief can be reported for murder if he
kills his victim in "self defense."
> If so - then why is this so different from just giving stealing an
> agg' flag?
>
> Confusing.
They wrote it fairly confusing, but I think the difference is that if
the thief is given an aggressor flag, the victim can go suicide and give
him a murder count.
Of course, this doesn't address offensive thieves who are
instrumental in getting killing people while somebody else is attacking
them.
--
David Veal lv...@user.icx.net
Hearding
Quentin <t.fricke(nospam)@cwixmail.com> wrote in message
news:zmpu2.54$EM1....@news.cwix.com...
>him he is still the agressor. He kills you he now has a murder count and is
>kicked out of the Guild for some set time hence he looses his ability to
>steal. ( i.e. he is no longer a theif. )
They said that you could not leave the guild for a week. Then they turned
around and said that if you get a murder count you will be kicked out of the
guild. I'm not sure I understand. What happens when you've only been in
the guild for an hour and you get a murder count?
Numen
Keremadec <kere...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990204184755...@ng99.aol.com...
JubJub McRae
>On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 21:11:43 GMT, Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard (Dundee)
>wrote:
>
>I'm not sure I understand the implications here:
>
>"For two minutes after stealing, the member of the Thieves' Guild is
>freely attackable by anyone in the area including his victim-not even
>an aggressor flag will apply to those that attack him. "
>
>Does this mean if the thief kills the victim (or anyone else that
>attacks him during this time), then he's reported for murder?
>
>If not - then what is the difference between this and the crim' flag
>that already applies?
>
>If so - then why is this so different from just giving stealing an
>agg' flag?
>
>Confusing.
I was thinking the EXACT same thing when I saw this paragraph. An
optimistic interpretation would be that what is meant by the attacker
not getting an aggressor flag is that the attacker will be able to
kill the thief, but will still appear as innocent to the thief.. and
the thief would get a murder count if they responded. If this is the
case, then after getting caught, the thief has no choice but to vacate
the scene - if he fights back and loses, he's dead, if he fights back
and wins, he just lost his guilded status. It's an even better
situation than giving it the outright aggressor flag... It sort of
takes care of the problem (for the thief) of Kal Ort Por suicides were
stealing given an aggressor flag, and fits into the semi-sanctioned,
steal, but don't get too dirty guild theme. The thief can try to
steal, the victim and friends can respond with extreme prejudice, and
the thief can run his ass off. The BluePK tank thief :) well, all he
can do is whine on the web boards about how the fukin RPers are
ruining the game.
JubJub McRae
>Dundee wrote:
>>
>> The Plans for Thieves Feb 4 1999 3:15PM
>
>> Detecting hidden in houses
>> As a benefit to those struggling with the problem of thieves hiding in
>> their houses, the Detect Hidden skill will instantly reveal anyone
>> hidden in your house, regardless of where they are and regardless of
>> your skill level. Owners and friends alike will have this capability,
>> on the grounds that they know their house and its hiding places better
>> than any stranger.
>
>Will using detect hidden in this situation raise the DH skill? Many of
>us don't want that skill. I realize that detection will be "automatic",
>even at low DH skill level, and so DH won't have to be very high. But
>for those at the skill cap, using DH, especially at low skill level,
>will raise DH and cause a corresponding loss of valued skills.
>
>Please make it so friends/owners using DH in their house doesn't result
>in a skill check that raises DH. Perhaps use an option from the house
>menu (including saying something like "I reveal thee")?
>
>rend
>gil'lomion LS
I get a creepy feeling that this will be addressed a couple patches
after I lose my GM smith to detecting a thief next to my vendor.
Dundee
wrote:
>Very nice plan, only thing I would change is make it a permanent flag
>like it is now, with the ability to attack Thieves Guild members in
>town. As it stands now, I'm not sure how town theft will be handled
>under this system.
I think Town Theft is pretty much dead already.
I'm also assuming that the thief would be crim' flagged and such if he
steals in town so that people _can_ attack him.
Or "thief flagged" or whatever the heck they are calling it.
Dundee * Lake Superior * SkeptAck AT antisocial DOT com
uo stuff: http://dundee.uong.com
The Town of Skara Brae on LS: http:/members.xoom.com/skara/
Dundee
<t.fricke(nospam)@cwixmail.com> wrote:
>If you had paid atention to the first part this would be obvious. A thief
>has to join the Theif Guild to steal from you. If he steals and you attack
>him he is still the agressor.
They specifically state that the aggressor flag is not set on the
thief.
Nor is it set on the victim (or anyone else) that attacks the thief.
>He kills you he now has a murder count
So how is this different from giving the thief an aggressor flag,
which they have stated repeatedly that they aren't going to do?
Dundee * Lake Superior * SkeptAck AT antisocial DOT com
uo stuff: http://dundee.uong.com
The Town of Skara Brae on LS: http:/members.xoom.com/skara/
Dundee
wrote:
>Hmm... If it does.... then it would in effect be the agressor flag...
>but the difference would be that the thief would have to kill the
>person. A suicide when the thief made no agressive moves (other than
>stealing) wouldn't count... with a normal agressor flag, it would.
Won't autodefend kick'in as soon as I attack the thief?
Dundee * Lake Superior * SkeptAck AT antisocial DOT com
uo stuff: http://dundee.uong.com
The Town of Skara Brae on LS: http:/members.xoom.com/skara/
Dundee
wrote:
>Tyler explained it nicely. Basically it's to prevent suiciding on
>thieves the way you can on blue pkillers now.
So what prevents them from killing the people that attack them when
they steal?
Dundee * Lake Superior * SkeptAck AT antisocial DOT com
uo stuff: http://dundee.uong.com
The Town of Skara Brae on LS: http:/members.xoom.com/skara/
Brian DiNunno
>
> On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:09:46 GMT, phae...@yahoo.com (Damocles)
> wrote:
>
> >Tyler explained it nicely. Basically it's to prevent suiciding on
> >thieves the way you can on blue pkillers now.
>
> So what prevents them from killing the people that attack them when
> they steal?
I think, as others have said, that since you can counter attack the
thief without being flagged the aggressor, if the thief attacks back he
*would* acquire an aggressor flag. So the thief would have to be
careful to not auto-defend against an attack after they stole, or they
would take the flag, and potentially the murder count. Failed theft =
run like heck.
It would seem a feasible strategy would be to steal after someone else
has engaged comabt ... the victim might then be too distracted to
counter attack. It would certainly be a major improvement if indeed
the case.
--
Brian DiNunno
gt7...@prism.gatech.edu
http://r50h124.res.gatech.edu/main.html
Davian
>
> On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:09:46 GMT, phae...@yahoo.com (Damocles)
> wrote:
>
> >Tyler explained it nicely. Basically it's to prevent suiciding on
> >thieves the way you can on blue pkillers now.
>
> So what prevents them from killing the people that attack them when
> they steal?
>
When they fight back, they'd be killing a blue person, since the
agressor flag doesn't get set on their attackers.
If the thief kills the blue person who is attacking them, then they take
a murder count.
If they take a murder count, they're out of the thieves guild and have
to wait a week before being able to rejoin and steal from players again.
Davian
Damocles
wrote:
>On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:09:46 GMT, phae...@yahoo.com (Damocles)
>wrote:
>
>>Very nice plan, only thing I would change is make it a permanent flag
>>like it is now, with the ability to attack Thieves Guild members in
>>town. As it stands now, I'm not sure how town theft will be handled
>>under this system.
>
>I think Town Theft is pretty much dead already.
>
>I'm also assuming that the thief would be crim' flagged and such if he
>steals in town so that people _can_ attack him.
>
>Or "thief flagged" or whatever the heck they are calling it.
>
No, they say flat out that attacking a known thief guild member in
town will initiate a guard kill.
Damocles
wrote:
>On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:09:46 GMT, phae...@yahoo.com (Damocles)
>wrote:
>
>>Tyler explained it nicely. Basically it's to prevent suiciding on
>>thieves the way you can on blue pkillers now.
>
>So what prevents them from killing the people that attack them when
>they steal?
The deal is this - they cannot kill someone who attacks them without
taking a count. The difference is that with an aggressor flag if the
thief got you down to half hit points and you recalled out, only to
immediately die due to some other reason you could give the thief a
count. With this method the thief has to actually kill you himself. No
flag is set.
Damocles
McRae) wrote:
>>Please make it so friends/owners using DH in their house doesn't result
>>in a skill check that raises DH. Perhaps use an option from the house
>>menu (including saying something like "I reveal thee")?
>>
>>rend
>>gil'lomion LS
>
>I get a creepy feeling that this will be addressed a couple patches
>after I lose my GM smith to detecting a thief next to my vendor.
Of course not, the detect hidden skill is extremely hard to raise now
anyway, you won't get skill on something like this.
Alex Mars
playing a dungeon rogue. Lots of skills to learn though:
detect hidden
disarm trap
lock pick
hide
stealth
plus tactics and bow, I guess, and maybe enough magery to recall. The dungeon
thief will be smart and fast after learning all that.
BTW, if you want to train detect hidden, go to somewhere with new characters
bashing a dummy while practicing hiding.
-You slip into your secret underwear, you get on over to the dark side of your
mind...
Damocles
wrote:
>On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:09:46 GMT, phae...@yahoo.com (Damocles)
>wrote:
>
>>Very nice plan, only thing I would change is make it a permanent flag
>>like it is now, with the ability to attack Thieves Guild members in
>>town. As it stands now, I'm not sure how town theft will be handled
>>under this system.
>
>At the bank, 6 people see a thief steal, they can whack 'em without
>calling the Guards. If I'm carrying a Greater Explosion and see a
>thief stealing, I can test-drive my new toy on his head w/o being
>Guard-whacked or get a Murder count.
From the Dev Team plan:
[begin quote]
In towns, the proscription against starting fights still applies, so
even Thieves' Guild members will be safe from random attack, even if
everyone knows of their affiliation. An attack in town is still
punishable by calling the guards.
[end quote]
Pretty ambiguous to me, it needs clarification.
Damocles
>All in all these new thief rules sound interesting. It makes me consider
>playing a dungeon rogue. Lots of skills to learn though:
>
>detect hidden
>disarm trap
>lock pick
>hide
>stealth
>
>plus tactics and bow, I guess, and maybe enough magery to recall. The dungeon
>thief will be smart and fast after learning all that.
>
That stealth skill had better be properly balanced or it will really
screw things up.
JubJub McRae
JubJub McRae
wrote:
>On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:26:53 GMT, ori...@earthlink.net (OrionCA)
I think that's a reference to thieves being known by means of Forensic
Evaluation. I assume it at least. Hopefully, if they're actually
caught in the act, they're guard (and player) whackable in town.
JubJub McRae
wrote:
>On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Dundee wrote:
>> On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 21:11:43 GMT, Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard (Dundee)
>> wrote:
>> I'm not sure I understand the implications here:
>>
>> "For two minutes after stealing, the member of the Thieves' Guild is
>> freely attackable by anyone in the area including his victim-not even
>> an aggressor flag will apply to those that attack him. "
>>
>> Does this mean if the thief kills the victim (or anyone else that
>> attacks him during this time), then he's reported for murder?
>>
>> If not - then what is the difference between this and the crim' flag
>> that already applies?
>
> I think it does mean that the thief can be reported for murder if he
>kills his victim in "self defense."
>
>> If so - then why is this so different from just giving stealing an
>> agg' flag?
>>
>> Confusing.
>
> They wrote it fairly confusing, but I think the difference is that if
>the thief is given an aggressor flag, the victim can go suicide and give
>him a murder count.
>
> Of course, this doesn't address offensive thieves who are
>instrumental in getting killing people while somebody else is attacking
>them.
In a way it does.. if they steal 1 item, you can attack them, making
them unable to continue to steal from you, then shift back to the real
threat.
Dundee
wrote:
>If a thief steals from me and gets an aggressor flag, I can go commit
>suicide (blow myself up with a purple potion, fer example) and he gets
>a murder count and is kicked out of the guild. Under the proposed
>system NEITHER of us gets an aggressor flag:
Which brings us back to the original question - how does this stop the
theif from killing you?
Dundee
wrote:
>No, they say flat out that attacking a known thief guild member in
>town will initiate a guard kill.
But not if he commits a crime in town. If he tries to steal in town
and get crim' flagged then the guards kill him. Or if no one calls
the guards, you can kill him.
Julian Ashton
>
> Which brings us back to the original question - how does this stop the
> theif from killing you?
>
> --
> Dundee of Lake Superior - SkeptAck AT antisocial DOT com
> The Town of Skara Brae: http://members.xoom.com/skara/
> UO related stuff: http://dundee.uong.com
Nothing except for the fact that if the thief kills you, he is kicked
out of the guild and can no longer steal.
It would seem to me that what the Dev Team is trying to do is trying to
make the life of a thief harder (which I completly agree with by the
way). I mean if they want to steal from you to get you to attack them,
they risk loseing the ability to steal at all.
Julian Ashton
Skara Ranger
Damocles
McRae) wrote:
>>
>>Pretty ambiguous to me, it needs clarification.
>
>I think that's a reference to thieves being known by means of Forensic
>Evaluation. I assume it at least. Hopefully, if they're actually
>caught in the act, they're guard (and player) whackable in town.
That makes it different from the current perma flag system, where as
soon as a thief successfully steals an item from a blue player he's
killable anywhere, including town. Under this system, in town at least
you will have to wait until the thief actually goes grey before
attacking, and even then it's not clear if you can attack or just call
guards.
Sophist
<F48956B8074E0EBD.F9D1ABB8C1DCBCA7.9DCA7CDF7ECE8D15@library-
proxy.airnews.net>, Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard says...
> On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:22:28 GMT, ori...@earthlink.net (OrionCA)
> wrote:
>
> >If a thief steals from me and gets an aggressor flag, I can go commit
> >suicide (blow myself up with a purple potion, fer example) and he gets
> >a murder count and is kicked out of the guild. Under the proposed
> >system NEITHER of us gets an aggressor flag:
>
> theif from killing you?
>
>
This is from OSI's board, a snippet of the proposed changes...
"One of the typical techniques of the thieves that exist today is
that they steal from you in order to provoke you into attacking them
and thus acquiring an aggressor flag. Then they kill you and loot
your corpse, knowing that as an aggressor you will be unable to
report them for murder. However, this tactic will no longer be
feasible under the new Thieves' Guild system. For two minutes after
stealing, the member of the Thieves' Guild is freely attackable by
anyone in the area including his victim-not even an aggressor flag
will apply to those that attack him."
...the last sentence is the really important one. Two other Thief
Guild restrictions are important to bring into the discussion at
this point: (a) to steal from another player you must be in the
thief guild, and (b) members of the thief guild can't murder others.
So if I'm reading that last sentence in the above quote correctly,
that should be the final piece of the puzzle for making a tank thief
almost unplayable. Their standard tactic is to steal from you in the
hopes of provoking you to attack, then in turn killing you when you
go grey. However, now you won't go grey within that two minute
window which in turn prevents the Tank Thief from killing you. If he
does, he's out of the guild.
The only real possible problem I see in the plan, on paper anyway,
is that I'm not sure how attempts to steal by non-guild members will
be handled. If an "attempting to steal" message still appears, even
though they have no chance of actually stealing, that could be a
juicy little hole for them to exploit in the hopes of provoking the
unwitting to attack.
Sophist
--
----------------------------------------------------
If'n it's an email you're looking for, here it be...
tmy...@home.com
Dundee
<sbh...@lynchburg.net> wrote:
>Dundee wrote:
>> Which brings us back to the original question - how does this stop the
>> theif from killing you?
>
>Nothing except for the fact that if the thief kills you, he is kicked
>out of the guild and can no longer steal.
The thief is only kicked out of the guild if he gets reported for
murder.
If he's getting reported for murder, then how is this different from
an aggressor flag?
Sophist
phae...@yahoo.com says...
> On 5 Feb 1999 09:14:01 GMT, alex...@aol.com (Alex Mars) wrote:
>
> >All in all these new thief rules sound interesting. It makes me consider
> >playing a dungeon rogue. Lots of skills to learn though:
> >
> >detect hidden
> >disarm trap
> >lock pick
> >hide
> >stealth
> >
> >plus tactics and bow, I guess, and maybe enough magery to recall. The dungeon
> >thief will be smart and fast after learning all that.
> >
>
> That stealth skill had better be properly balanced or it will really
> screw things up.
>
>
If they restricted usage of it to only Thief Guild members it
probably wouldn't be too bad. If anyone can use it though I'm afraid
there's a good chance it'll be the new nemesis of the lands.
It seems that it will be affected by armour worn, and will also
require high hiding. Most Pk's (blue or otherwise) already have very
high hiding so that shouldn't be a problem. The armor issue is could
possibly be resolved with a macro program. That's to say that the PK
just sets up a macro to pull his armor as he engages the stealth
skill, then has another macro to re-arm it when he goes to attack
again.
There is an overriding issue here to though. One can only have so
many functional skills. Meditation or Anatomy (or both) will be
equally desirable skills to have for the PK types I'd think. So
there will undoubtedly be a trade off here of some sort.
It'll be interesting to see how it unfolds.
cab...@my-dejanews.com
proxy.airnews.net
> >In towns, the proscription against starting fights still applies, so
> >even Thieves' Guild members will be safe from random attack, even if
> >everyone knows of their affiliation. An attack in town is still
> >punishable by calling the guards.
> >
> >[end quote]
> >
>
> I think that's a reference to thieves being known by means of Forensic
> Evaluation. I assume it at least. Hopefully, if they're actually
> caught in the act, they're guard (and player) whackable in town.
>
It seems the keyword is "RANDOM" attack. I'd assume retaliation for a
criminal act is still possible.
But the good thing about the guild is, once a theif is known, he'll need to
move on and work another area. I will be plugging known theives full of arrows
in the mines as soon as they walk on screen :).
Cabbot, Great Lakes
GM Smith + GM Miner + GM Archer + GM Warrior + GM Armsman = GM Tank
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
taran
count, you are ejected from the guild with a stat loss penalty.
Taran
--------------
taran wanderer
assistant pig keeper
chesapeake shard
--On Friday, February 05, 1999, 12:17 AM +0000 Hearding <jeh...@flash.net>
wrote:
>
> Quentin <t.fricke(nospam)@cwixmail.com> wrote in message
> news:zmpu2.54$EM1....@news.cwix.com...
>
>> him he is still the agressor. He kills you he now has a murder count and
>> is kicked out of the Guild for some set time hence he looses his ability
>> to steal. ( i.e. he is no longer a theif. )
>
> They said that you could not leave the guild for a week. Then they turned
> around and said that if you get a murder count you will be kicked out of
> the guild. I'm not sure I understand. What happens when you've only
> been in the guild for an hour and you get a murder count?
>
>
>
>
Julian Ashton
>
> The thief is only kicked out of the guild if he gets reported for
> murder.
>
> If he's getting reported for murder, then how is this different from
> an aggressor flag?
>
> --
> Dundee of Lake Superior - SkeptAck AT antisocial DOT com
> The Town of Skara Brae: http://members.xoom.com/skara/
> UO related stuff: http://dundee.uong.com
My guess would be that the only reason they are choosing not to put an
aggressor flag for stealing is to circumvent the "suicide murder count"
that can be given out to anyone who becomes an aggressor but does not
kill their target. I hope that the "suicide murder count" is something
that they can get rid of all together.
Julian Ashton
Skara Ranger
Raph Koster
>Quentin <t.fricke(nospam)@cwixmail.com> wrote in message
>news:zmpu2.54$EM1....@news.cwix.com...
>>him he is still the agressor. He kills you he now has a murder count and is
>>kicked out of the Guild for some set time hence he looses his ability to
>>steal. ( i.e. he is no longer a theif. )
>They said that you could not leave the guild for a week. Then they turned
>around and said that if you get a murder count you will be kicked out of the
>guild. I'm not sure I understand. What happens when you've only been in
>the guild for an hour and you get a murder count?
You'll be treated as a member for a week, but you won't be able to
steal. Worst of both worlds, as far as the thief is concerned. :)
-Raph Koster
Lead Designer, Ultima Online
Raph Koster
>On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 22:41:35 GMT, "Quentin"
><t.fricke(nospam)@cwixmail.com> wrote:
>>If you had paid atention to the first part this would be obvious. A thief
>>has to join the Theif Guild to steal from you. If he steals and you attack
>>him he is still the agressor.
>They specifically state that the aggressor flag is not set on the
>thief.
>Nor is it set on the victim (or anyone else) that attacks the thief.
>>He kills you he now has a murder count
>So how is this different from giving the thief an aggressor flag,
>which they have stated repeatedly that they aren't going to do?
If we give the thief an aggressor flag, then the victim suicides and
gives him a murder count immediately.
Raph Koster
>On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:09:46 GMT, phae...@yahoo.com (Damocles)
>wrote:
>>Tyler explained it nicely. Basically it's to prevent suiciding on
>>thieves the way you can on blue pkillers now.
>So what prevents them from killing the people that attack them when
>they steal?
The fact that then they'll be unable to steal for a full week. Plus
they'll still be attackable.
Jack Benny
>
> The fact that then they'll be unable to steal for a full week. Plus
> they'll still be attackable.
>
Providing of course that they don't resign from the thieves guild.
Givent the fact that the re-join after resigning wait time is 1 week and
the stealing wait time is one week this one is a no brainer. Just
resign and rejoin in a week.
Jack
David Veal
> On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 10:39:32 -0500, Julian Ashton
> <sbh...@lynchburg.net> wrote:
> >> Which brings us back to the original question - how does this stop the
> >> theif from killing you?
> >
> >Nothing except for the fact that if the thief kills you, he is kicked
> >out of the guild and can no longer steal.
>
> murder.
>
> an aggressor flag?
Because he doesn't get the aggressor flag until he retaliates against
his victim's attack. If a thief steals from you and gets flagged as an
aggressor, then if you are killed by someone else or suicide he gets
reported for murder. The way they've described it he must *both* steal
and attack, rather than just steal, in order to be reported for murder.
I don't know how auto-defend figures into the picture. Is there
any other situation where you could find yourself auto-defending against a
non-aggressor?
I'd rather see thieves get an aggressor flag for stealing, but what
they're talking about at least seems a reasonable compromise.
--
David Veal lv...@user.icx.net
Richard Cortese
>
> All in all these new thief rules sound interesting. It makes me consider
> playing a dungeon rogue. Lots of skills to learn though:
>
> detect hidden
> disarm trap
> lock pick
> hide
> stealth
Stealing in there as a prerequisite skill.
You may be aware of how the only way to get books off of bookshelves is
to steal them. A modification of this was put on TC where the only way
to pick up loot out of barrels was to steal it.
Of course with the monsters now knocking the hell out of anything that
gets in their way, like spawned barrels, it was a complete SNAFU. None
of the barrels lasted long enough to steal anything out of them, 'cept
for one of my chrs of course.
The other problem was stealing from spawned barrels turns you gray as it
was implemented. This is kind of counter to the way it should be. Who
the heck wants to die for stealing a normal mace or a blank scroll?
Damocles
wrote:
>On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:22:28 GMT, ori...@earthlink.net (OrionCA)
>wrote:
>
>>If a thief steals from me and gets an aggressor flag, I can go commit
>>suicide (blow myself up with a purple potion, fer example) and he gets
>>a murder count and is kicked out of the guild. Under the proposed
>>system NEITHER of us gets an aggressor flag:
>
>Which brings us back to the original question - how does this stop the
>theif from killing you?
The original question has been answered about five times already. If
the thief kills you he gets a murder count and is kicked out of the
guild. No aggressor flag is set to prevent people from getting into a
fight with the thief, taking some small damage and recalling out and
suiciding. Under this system, the thief has to actually make the kill
before getting a count.
John Schirpik
Dundee wrote in message
>Requirements
>To join the Thieves' Guild, you will be required to meet several
>restrictions.
>First, your character must have existed for at least one week.
>Brand-new characters will not be accepted,
I have a problem with this if i was the type to make a Bank Theif i would
make one on evry shard i wanted to mess with and leave him alone till the
week has passed and bang frist time im board pull them out and start making
trubble.over a week i would make more theifs on the shards to sleep for a
week to be ready .
i would drop the waiting week and put in 20 hours of play instead.
>Forensics
>The Forensic Evaluation skill will also be able to determine who has
>recently picked locks on locked containers.
i cut the wrong part here i have a question about detecting a theives
guild member in town would they become attackable in town after they are
found out?
![Undertaker[KGM/XH]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjXXUCmupJplbeIS3B2OLhEKPkauVECnaaxon89YGUvBFaPkMA=s40-c)
Undertaker[KGM/XH]
Raph Koster wrote:
>
> Dun...@LakeSuperior.com (Dundee) wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:09:46 GMT, phae...@yahoo.com (Damocles)
> >wrote:
>
> >>Tyler explained it nicely. Basically it's to prevent suiciding on
> >>thieves the way you can on blue pkillers now.
>
> >So what prevents them from killing the people that attack them when
> >they steal?
>
> The fact that then they'll be unable to steal for a full week. Plus
> they'll still be attackable.
My bet is that this does away with thieves permanantly. It would
become, not fun. I don't like thieves, but I'd like to play one
someday. This would certainly prevent that? If this is your method,
just do away with thieves.
UT
JubJub McRae
wrote:
>Dun...@LakeSuperior.com (Dundee) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 22:41:35 GMT, "Quentin"
>><t.fricke(nospam)@cwixmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>If you had paid atention to the first part this would be obvious. A thief
>>>has to join the Theif Guild to steal from you. If he steals and you attack
>>>him he is still the agressor.
>
>>They specifically state that the aggressor flag is not set on the
>>thief.
>
>>Nor is it set on the victim (or anyone else) that attacks the thief.
>
>>>He kills you he now has a murder count
>
>>So how is this different from giving the thief an aggressor flag,
>>which they have stated repeatedly that they aren't going to do?
>
>If we give the thief an aggressor flag, then the victim suicides and
>gives him a murder count immediately.
>
>-Raph Koster
>Lead Designer, Ultima Online
I like it, for so long the jerks have been sneering, if you don't want
to die for that handful of pearl which was just stolen, run away..
isn't irony great.
Sophist
says...
>
> My bet is that this does away with thieves permanantly. It would
> become, not fun. I don't like thieves, but I'd like to play one
> someday. This would certainly prevent that? If this is your method,
> just do away with thieves.
>
> UT
It does seem that there's a strong push to do away with the UO type
thief. That's not a bad thing I don't think. The positive spin is
that at the same time there also seems to be a move afoot to replace
it with a more traditional RPG Rogue class. All-in-all I think
that's a pretty good trade off. Just from my perspective I think a
traditional rogue would be a more entertaining character to develop
than the current UO type thief.
Just my 2 bits mind you...
Sophist
Sophist
> Raph Koster wrote:
> >
> > The fact that then they'll be unable to steal for a full week. Plus
> > they'll still be attackable.
> >
>
>
> Givent the fact that the re-join after resigning wait time is 1 week and
> the stealing wait time is one week this one is a no brainer. Just
> resign and rejoin in a week.
>
> Jack
>
Hmm. But if they resign they can't steal which basically prevents
them from pestering folks via that route. Nor can they incur any
murder counts during this week period, assuming they plan to rejoin
that is. It seems that they'd be pretty well neutered whilst they
wait.
So, sure, I guess they can wait. But they can't run around pestering
folks during that period so that's certainly a plus, no?
Sophist
Ivan Koh
> while hidden.
I think this skill needs to be refined or limited. Someone can simply just
sneak into the dungeon and start grabbing every treasures he sees along the
way. Is there any limitation on how long one can go into stealth mode?
Silverlock
wrote:
>On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 10:39:32 -0500, Julian Ashton
><sbh...@lynchburg.net> wrote:
>
>>Dundee wrote:
>
>>> Which brings us back to the original question - how does this stop the
>>> theif from killing you?
>>
>>Nothing except for the fact that if the thief kills you, he is kicked
>>out of the guild and can no longer steal.
>
>The thief is only kicked out of the guild if he gets reported for
>murder.
>
>If he's getting reported for murder, then how is this different from
>an aggressor flag?
Because with the aggressor flag a victim of theft could recall home,
bank his stuff and commit suicide to hand out a count. This way, if
the thief steals you can A) recall away and the thief got one thing,
B) attack the thief and win, C) attack the thief and lose in which
case he may get your stuff but he is also kicked from the thief guild
and cannot steal from a person for whatever length of time he is
forbidden from rejoining.
--
Silverlock, ICQ 474725
Household Pests? The SW-404 'SpitFire' APRL cleansing system
will remove them, we Guarantee IT! Not responsible for damage
to persons or structures from use of this product.
Dial 1-800-FRY-THEM for info and a home demonstration.
The Philosopher Primus
> Because with the aggressor flag a victim of theft could recall home,
> bank his stuff and commit suicide to hand out a count. This way, if
> the thief steals you can A) recall away and the thief got one thing,
> B) attack the thief and win, C) attack the thief and lose in which
> case he may get your stuff but he is also kicked from the thief guild
> and cannot steal from a person for whatever length of time he is
> forbidden from rejoining.
Actually, what it does is require that the thief attack you before you can
give a murder count.
He steals. If you recall and die, you simply die.
You attack. He cannot give a murder count, but neither can you.
He attacks back. Now you can recall and die, and he won't be stealing for a
while.
Damocles
<He...@Fight.SPAM> wrote:
>Silverlock wrote:
>
>> Because with the aggressor flag a victim of theft could recall home,
>> bank his stuff and commit suicide to hand out a count. This way, if
>> the thief steals you can A) recall away and the thief got one thing,
>> B) attack the thief and win, C) attack the thief and lose in which
>> case he may get your stuff but he is also kicked from the thief guild
>> and cannot steal from a person for whatever length of time he is
>> forbidden from rejoining.
>
>Actually, what it does is require that the thief attack you before you can
>give a murder count.
False, see below.
>You attack. He cannot give a murder count, but neither can you.
False, if he kills you on your retaliation he still gets a murder
count and is booted from the guild. A thief's only recourse if
attacked after stealing is to flee. He cannot kill you.
From the plan:
[begin quote]
For two minutes after stealing, the member of the Thieves' Guild is
freely attackable by anyone in the area including his victim-not even
an aggressor flag will apply to those that attack him.
[end quote]
The difference between this and the regular attackability of a member
of the thieve's guild is that if someone attacks a member of the thief
guild outside of the two minute theft period and is killed doing so,
the thief does not get a count.
>He attacks back. Now you can recall and die, and he won't be stealing for a
>while.
>
No, because there's no aggressor flag set you can't recall and
suicide. Why is this so hard for people to understand?
Damocles
wrote:
It sounds like a bad idea altogether. Too easily abused.
Raph Koster
>My bet is that this does away with thieves permanantly. It would
>become, not fun. I don't like thieves, but I'd like to play one
>someday. This would certainly prevent that? If this is your method,
>just do away with thieves.
Actually, I've already heard fom UO's most famous thief & con artist,
Xavori, who is intrigued by the new system and wants to play under it.
WHich is a good thing--that CLASS of thief (eg a class act) is what we
want to have, instead of the current gang. :P
Morgana
>>wrote:
>
>>>Tyler explained it nicely. Basically it's to prevent suiciding on
>>>thieves the way you can on blue pkillers now.
>
>>So what prevents them from killing the people that attack them when
>>they steal?
>
>they'll still be attackable.
>
>Lead Designer, Ultima Online
Well, I have read the entire thread and I am still confused.
Clearly, if a thief attacks me and kills me, I can report
him and get him kicked out of the guild. Similarly, if he
casts an offensive spell at me or orders a pet to attack me
after stealing from me, he will get an aggressor flag with
all the baggage that implies.
So, here is the scenario:
Wallet Inspector steals all my black pearls.
Enraged, I attack Wallet Inspector with my shiny katana.
He auto-defends with his all powerful bow of doom.
And here are the questions.
1) Does he actually auto-defend?
2) If so, does he get an aggressor flag when he hits me?
3) Can I report him for murder if I die to his bow?
4) If he is guarded, will his creatures attack me?
If so, will he be responsible if they kill me?
--
Lady Morgan of Minoc, Smith on Napa Valley shard
o==}---------
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|> 3) Can I report him for murder if I die to his bow?
|>
|
|No.
Yes, she can. If you attack a thief who has just stolen in the last two
minutes you do not get an aggressor or criminal flag. If the thief kills you
it's murder and he's booted from the guild. They can't kill you -- their PK
buddy has to do it for them.
|Later, you pass Wally coming out of the Healer's shop, think to
|yourself, "Hey! That's the guy who tried to rip me off!" and you
|attack him. He later comes out again, the guy beside you at the bank
|sees him and whacks him because he knows he's a thief. Later still,
|the OTHER guy sees him, knows he's a thief, and whacks him. Wally is
|permanently "gray" to the authorities so no one can guard-whack any of
|you and you all know that for at least one real-week after he
|attempted to attack you he's whackable.
No, unless they've stolen in the last two minutes you can't attack
Thieves' Guild members in guardspace.
Dennis F. Heffernan UO: Venture (Catskills) dfra...@email.com
Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
when Victoria reigned." -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Raph Koster
>So, here is the scenario:
> Wallet Inspector steals all my black pearls.
> Enraged, I attack Wallet Inspector with my shiny katana.
> He auto-defends with his all powerful bow of doom.
>And here are the questions.
> 1) Does he actually auto-defend?
Yes.
> 2) If so, does he get an aggressor flag when he hits me?
Yes.
> 3) Can I report him for murder if I die to his bow?
Yes.
> 4) If he is guarded, will his creatures attack me?
> If so, will he be responsible if they kill me?
Yes.
In other words, if Wallet Inspector wants to continue being a thief,
he had better do one of the following:
a) stop fighting, return the goods, and beg you not to kill him.
b) let himself be killed like a dog
c) run away
If he kills you, he is out of business for at least a week.
Tyler Novak
Raph Koster <rko...@origin.ea.com> wrote:
[Example snipped]
>In other words, if Wallet Inspector wants to continue being a thief,
>he had better do one of the following:
>
>a) stop fighting, return the goods, and beg you not to kill him.
>b) let himself be killed like a dog
>c) run away
>
>If he kills you, he is out of business for at least a week.
So basically all theives will have to be hit and run. They will also have
to equip a spell book at all times.
If someone tries to kill me after I steal from them and then I auto defend
and do 1 point of damage. The victim can run, suicide, and put me out
of the guild for a week?
This seems a little harsh.
Is there some reason there can't be a new flag? Why are you trying to force
this theif stuff into the current mold? Expand the mold.
The example above seems way too harsh.
--
Tyler Novak -----E-mail----- harl at upl dot cs dot wisc dot edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Happiness is mandatory.
Ingot Head
Raph Koster wrote in message <79pui7$t4i$1...@remarQ.com>...
[snip]
>In other words, if Wallet Inspector wants to continue being a thief,
>he had better do one of the following:
>
>a) stop fighting, return the goods, and beg you not to kill him.
>b) let himself be killed like a dog
>c) run away
>
>If he kills you, he is out of business for at least a week.
Ummmmm.
Not to be obtuse, but...
I like this! Good job on the design Raph my man!
Ingot Head
Atlantic
Dundee
>to equip a spell book at all times.
Equipping a spellbook won't help.
>If someone tries to kill me after I steal from them and then I auto defend
>and do 1 point of damage. The victim can run, suicide, and put me out
>of the guild for a week?
Yep.
>This seems a little harsh.
Seems a lot like giving stealing an aggressor flag.
>Is there some reason there can't be a new flag? Why are you trying to force
>this theif stuff into the current mold? Expand the mold.
I think the idea is to all but eliminate PvP thievery. And why not?
It's worthless in terms of entertainment value, except for the
thieves.
>The example above seems way too harsh.
I like it.
I might even join the thieves guild.
JubJub McRae
wrote:
>>So basically all theives will have to be hit and run. They will also have
>>to equip a spell book at all times.
>
>Equipping a spellbook won't help.
>
>>If someone tries to kill me after I steal from them and then I auto defend
>>and do 1 point of damage. The victim can run, suicide, and put me out
>>of the guild for a week?
>
>Yep.
>
>>This seems a little harsh.
>
>Seems a lot like giving stealing an aggressor flag.
>
>>Is there some reason there can't be a new flag? Why are you trying to force
>>this theif stuff into the current mold? Expand the mold.
>
>I think the idea is to all but eliminate PvP thievery. And why not?
>It's worthless in terms of entertainment value, except for the
>thieves.
>
>>The example above seems way too harsh.
>
>I like it.
>
>I might even join the thieves guild.
How bout a Skara Brae Thieves Guild? or if you feel Skara Brae has
all but filled up with newsgroup thieves guilds, a Britain, or Vesper
thieves guild.
Damocles
wrote:
>
>I think the idea is to all but eliminate PvP thievery. And why not?
>It's worthless in terms of entertainment value, except for the
>thieves.
>
>>The example above seems way too harsh.
>
>I like it.
>
>I might even join the thieves guild.
I agree, it sounds like it could be a lot of fun. Challenging, but not
abusive. Pimp Mastas look elsewhere.
Dundee
McRae) wrote:
>How bout a Skara Brae Thieves Guild? or if you feel Skara Brae has
>all but filled up with newsgroup thieves guilds, a Britain, or Vesper
>thieves guild.
Well if I *do* join the thieves guild, I'm sure not going to _tell_
anyone.
;-P
Tyler Novak
Dundee <Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard> wrote:
>>So basically all theives will have to be hit and run. They will also have
>>to equip a spell book at all times.
>
>Equipping a spellbook won't help.
I was under the impression that if you equiped, put in hands, a spell book
you would not wrestle.
Am I wrong.
>>If someone tries to kill me after I steal from them and then I auto defend
>>and do 1 point of damage. The victim can run, suicide, and put me out
>>of the guild for a week?
>
>Yep.
>
>>This seems a little harsh.
>
>Seems a lot like giving stealing an aggressor flag.
See below.
>>Is there some reason there can't be a new flag? Why are you trying to force
>>this theif stuff into the current mold? Expand the mold.
>I think the idea is to all but eliminate PvP thievery. And why not?
>It's worthless in terms of entertainment value, except for the
>thieves.
If their goal is to eliminate it then eliminate it. I have more faith
in Raph than that.
PvP thieverery is not worthless. It's existed in other persistant commercial
multiplayer online games before. Gemstone III for example. It works fine in
that game.
>I like it.
>I might even join the thieves guild.
I think what needs to be addressed is the suicide part of the example.
I have no problems with the theivery changes going in except this.
Raph: Is there someway you can detect suicide? It may just end up
being pointless as you could have a friend kill you and then not
report him. But can we at least try and detect suicide and not punish
for it?
>
>--
>Dundee of Lake Superior - SkeptAck AT antisocial DOT com
>The Town of Skara Brae: http://members.xoom.com/skara/
>UO related stuff: http://dundee.uong.com
--
Tyler Novak -----E-mail----- harl at upl dot cs dot wisc dot edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sis, Boom, Baaaa! (The sound of a sheep exploding.)
Green17
<snip>
>In other words, if Wallet Inspector wants to continue being a thief,
>he had better do one of the following:
>
>a) stop fighting, return the goods, and beg you not to kill him.
>b) let himself be killed like a dog
>c) run away
>
>If he kills you, he is out of business for at least a week.
This sounds GREAT!
I hope this works out as well as you've described it...
Morgana
I also like it a lot, as long as there is some way for the
thief to prevent himself from doing damage when defending,
such as wielding a spell book.
I feel bad asking for anything else ... but could we get an
option for "No Wrestling" that makes you never attack or
defend yourself with Wrestling? That and Magic Resist are
the only two remaining offenders for inadvertent skill gain.
Raph Koster <rko...@origin.ea.com> wrote:
>mor...@brownie.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Morgana) wrote:
>
>>So, here is the scenario:
>
>> Wallet Inspector steals all my black pearls.
>
>> Enraged, I attack Wallet Inspector with my shiny katana.
>
>> He auto-defends with his all powerful bow of doom.
>
>>And here are the questions.
>
>> 1) Does he actually auto-defend?
>
>Yes.
>
>> 2) If so, does he get an aggressor flag when he hits me?
>
>Yes.
>
>> 3) Can I report him for murder if I die to his bow?
>
>Yes.
>
>> 4) If he is guarded, will his creatures attack me?
>> If so, will he be responsible if they kill me?
>
>Yes.
>
>In other words, if Wallet Inspector wants to continue being a thief,
>he had better do one of the following:
>
>a) stop fighting, return the goods, and beg you not to kill him.
>b) let himself be killed like a dog
>c) run away
>
>If he kills you, he is out of business for at least a week.
>
>-Raph Koster
>Lead Designer, Ultima Online
--
Bob Roland
> In other words, if Wallet Inspector wants to continue being a thief,
> he had better do one of the following:
>
> a) stop fighting, return the goods, and beg you not to kill him.
> b) let himself be killed like a dog
> c) run away
>
> If he kills you, he is out of business for at least a week.
Huh. I wasn't sure it would work like that. When you said that
stealing would not flag the thief as an agressor, I got a bit nervous.
This thief thing sounds better and better all the time.
Now if the stat cap wasn't there and I had a free character slot, I bet
I would try to make one. :P
Damned if the new dev team hasn't been on track recently. (tailoring and
poisioning issues aside)
Great Bob
SBR
Dundee
wrote:
>>Equipping a spellbook won't help.
>
>I was under the impression that if you equiped, put in hands, a spell book
>you would not wrestle.
>
>Am I wrong.
You won't get increases to your wrestling skill, but you will wrestle.
>PvP thieverery is not worthless. It's existed in other persistant commercial
>multiplayer online games before. Gemstone III for example. It works fine in
>that game.
Well it doesn't work fine in this one.
>I think what needs to be addressed is the suicide part of the example.
It would be nice if suiciding were addressed across the board - not
just for thieves, but for everyone else too. We _do_ get 4 "free
kills", though.
Raph Koster
>In article <79pui7$t4i$1...@remarQ.com>,
>Raph Koster <rko...@origin.ea.com> wrote:
>[Example snipped]
>>In other words, if Wallet Inspector wants to continue being a thief,
>>he had better do one of the following:
>>
>>a) stop fighting, return the goods, and beg you not to kill him.
>>b) let himself be killed like a dog
>>c) run away
>>
>>If he kills you, he is out of business for at least a week.
>So basically all theives will have to be hit and run. They will also have
>to equip a spell book at all times.
Well, my contention is actually that the successful thieves will be
the ones who steal without neing noticed & thus without provoking the
attack.
>Is there some reason there can't be a new flag? Why are you trying to force
>this theif stuff into the current mold? Expand the mold.
This IS a new flag... it's also a new mold...
Tyler Novak
>>In article <79pui7$t4i$1...@remarQ.com>,
>>Raph Koster <rko...@origin.ea.com> wrote:
>>[Example snipped]
>>>In other words, if Wallet Inspector wants to continue being a thief,
>>>he had better do one of the following:
>>>a) stop fighting, return the goods, and beg you not to kill him.
>>>b) let himself be killed like a dog
>>>c) run away
>>>
>>>If he kills you, he is out of business for at least a week.
>>So basically all theives will have to be hit and run. They will also have
>>to equip a spell book at all times.
>Well, my contention is actually that the successful thieves will be
>the ones who steal without neing noticed & thus without provoking the
>attack.
This would be wonderful. Right now though I've never had something stolen
from me and not noticed it. If it will be possible to steal and not be
noticed then the thieving changes will be very nice.
>>Is there some reason there can't be a new flag? Why are you trying to force
>>this theif stuff into the current mold? Expand the mold.
>This IS a new flag... it's also a new mold...
How is this a new flag? You are still using the aggressor flag and the
suicide problems involved with it.
Please explain.
--
Tyler Novak -----E-mail----- harl at upl dot cs dot wisc dot edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The computer made me do it.
Davian
>
> In article <79se2u$3g5$6...@remarQ.com>,
> Raph Koster <rko...@origin.ea.com> wrote:
> >ha...@dukat.upl.cs.wisc.edu (Tyler Novak) wrote:
>
> >>In article <79pui7$t4i$1...@remarQ.com>,
> >>Raph Koster <rko...@origin.ea.com> wrote:
>
> >>[Example snipped]
<snip>
> >>So basically all theives will have to be hit and run. They will also have
> >>to equip a spell book at all times.
>
> >Well, my contention is actually that the successful thieves will be
> >the ones who steal without neing noticed & thus without provoking the
> >attack.
>
> This would be wonderful. Right now though I've never had something stolen
> from me and not noticed it. If it will be possible to steal and not be
> noticed then the thieving changes will be very nice.
>
I've seen it happen, but the vast majority of thieves today *want* to be
noticed... they don't steal once, they steal constantly until you have
no choice but to attack them (and die) you run away (recall really,
unless they've stolen your rune or reagents) or be slowly stripped of
everything you need to survive.
> >>Is there some reason there can't be a new flag? Why are you trying to force
> >>this theif stuff into the current mold? Expand the mold.
>
> >This IS a new flag... it's also a new mold...
>
> How is this a new flag? You are still using the aggressor flag and the
> suicide problems involved with it.
>
> Please explain.
>
With this new flag, the thief is attackable, but the people who attack
him in the minutes after a steal attempt aren't considered agressors.
If the thief fights back.... in order to do so, he has to become the
agressor. He will then get nailed with a murder count.
If the thief does *not* fight back, he is *not* made an agressor... he
cannot be reported for murder unless he fights with his victim. If he
runs away *without attacking*, even a suicide by the victim will not
make him a murderer.
I think I understand it, if you don't, say so and I'll try explaining
another way. :)
Davian
Tyler Novak
><snip>
Agressor flag.
>If the thief fights back.... in order to do so, he has to become the
>agressor. He will then get nailed with a murder count.
Agressor flag.
>If the thief does *not* fight back, he is *not* made an agressor... he
>cannot be reported for murder unless he fights with his victim. If he
>runs away *without attacking*, even a suicide by the victim will not
>make him a murderer.
Agressor flag.
>I think I understand it, if you don't, say so and I'll try explaining
>another way. :)
Read my previous posts to this thread. You answered but not my question. :)
In each of the three paragraphs you mention the agressor flag. This is my
point. Since we are dealing with the agressor flag the suicide problem
comes into effect.
Example:
Thief steals from victim and walks away. Victim gets no system message but
notices something disappear from inventory. Victim goes into war mode and
double clicks on Thief. Then Victim starts chasing Thief. The Victim gets
next to Thief and Thief takes a swing with autodefend. Victim says "Thank
You," recalls aways, kills himself, and screws over the non-violent thief.
Now in my eyes not setting the agressor flag is not a new type of flag. It's
no flag. And the server will treat it that way.
I like the new thief changes but I don't want to force theives to be bouncing
on the tab button like crazy so they don't auto-defend. That's fighting the
interface and is bad design.
--
Tyler Novak -----E-mail----- harl at upl dot cs dot wisc dot edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I liked "Slaughterhouse 5", but I can't find the first four anywhere.
~
From:
Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard (Dundee)
> I think the idea is to all but eliminate PvP thievery. And why not?
> It's worthless in terms of entertainment value, except for the
> thieves.
>
>
Bingo! And not all thieves at that. Just the ones who actually get the item as
opposed to losing it :)
Actually thieving wouldn't be such a problem without UOE and bug exploits. That
seems to be the main issue with thievery. I mean thieves that dont go grey,
steal off screen with multiple item steal,
steal from rooftops down below, do the drive (run) by quik stealing bug. Gimme
a break..why salvage this skill when its primary usefullnes can only be harnessed
with cheats and exploits. There is a huge discrepancy between UOE and bug
thieves and regular ones. The difference between being a millionaire (hyperbole)
and just barely scraping by. I have a feeling that most of the "just scraping by
thieves" aren't to concerned about the changes up and coming as they are not
aware of the luxurious lifestyle many of thier exploiting counterparts lead.
Reece hardy
provocation - I love the sound of it!! (considers theif character for the first
time......)
Jaew/Iridium
Davian
>
> In article <F8249161B3AE380F.2B5CCB57...@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
> Dundee <Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard> wrote:
> >>to equip a spell book at all times.
> >
>
> I was under the impression that if you equiped, put in hands, a spell book
> you would not wrestle.
>
> Am I wrong.
>
Yep.
A spellbook means that if you are attacked, you will still wrestle back,
but you won't gain skill in wrestling from it.
For those who don't like wrestling but were gaining it anyways whenever
something came near them and they were trying to cast.
Still isn't any good unless you're a pure mage or use UOA. The extra
equipping/unequipping makes it useless...
I can't afford the extra time to take off my weapon, take of shield,
equip spellbook. If I had that much time, I could have casted it
without wrestling being checked anyways.
Davian
Raph Koster
>In article <36C1EE14...@pilot.msu.edu>,
>Davian <tayl...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>>Tyler Novak wrote:
>>> >This IS a new flag... it's also a new mold...
>
>>> How is this a new flag? You are still using the aggressor flag and the
>>> suicide problems involved with it.
>
>>> Please explain.
>
>>With this new flag, the thief is attackable, but the people who attack
>>him in the minutes after a steal attempt aren't considered agressors.
>Agressor flag.
Read again--they are explicitly NOT flagged aggressor. This is because
of a new flag on the thief that means "don't flag those who attack me
as aggressors, for the next 2 minutes."
>>If the thief fights back.... in order to do so, he has to become the
>>agressor. He will then get nailed with a murder count.
>Agressor flag.
Correct.
>Example:
>Thief steals from victim and walks away. Victim gets no system message but
>notices something disappear from inventory. Victim goes into war mode and
>double clicks on Thief. Then Victim starts chasing Thief. The Victim gets
>next to Thief and Thief takes a swing with autodefend. Victim says "Thank
>You," recalls aways, kills himself, and screws over the non-violent thief.
This is a different issue. Basiucally, recall is probably going to
clear the aggressor list.
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|>Thief steals from victim and walks away. Victim gets no system message but
|>notices something disappear from inventory. Victim goes into war mode and
|>double clicks on Thief. Then Victim starts chasing Thief. The Victim gets
|>next to Thief and Thief takes a swing with autodefend. Victim says "Thank
|>You," recalls aways, kills himself, and screws over the non-violent thief.
|
|This is a different issue. Basiucally, recall is probably going to
|clear the aggressor list.
Will autodefend actually flag you as an agressor? I thought that required
actually dclicking the guy in War mode.
Damocles
Heffernan) wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:54:41 GMT, rko...@origin.ea.com (Raph Koster) wrote:
>
>|>Thief steals from victim and walks away. Victim gets no system message but
>|>notices something disappear from inventory. Victim goes into war mode and
>|>double clicks on Thief. Then Victim starts chasing Thief. The Victim gets
>|>next to Thief and Thief takes a swing with autodefend. Victim says "Thank
>|>You," recalls aways, kills himself, and screws over the non-violent thief.
>|
>|This is a different issue. Basiucally, recall is probably going to
>|clear the aggressor list.
>
> Will autodefend actually flag you as an agressor? I thought that required
>actually dclicking the guy in War mode.
>
I've never understood how that works. I often suicide on blue pks, and
sometimes I can give them a murder and sometimes I can't.
Davian
would even get *you* guard killed.
Let me try. I'm not sure, but this is what I understand of it.
OrionCA wrote:
>
> On 9 Feb 1999 02:02:32 GMT, mor...@brownie.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Morgana)
> wrote:
>
> >Raph Koster <rko...@origin.ea.com> wrote:
> >>Dun...@LakeSuperior.com (Dundee) wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:09:46 GMT, phae...@yahoo.com (Damocles)
> >>>wrote:
> >>
> >Well, I have read the entire thread and I am still confused.
> >Clearly, if a thief attacks me and kills me, I can report
> >him and get him kicked out of the guild. Similarly, if he
> >casts an offensive spell at me or orders a pet to attack me
> >after stealing from me, he will get an aggressor flag with
> >all the baggage that implies.
> >
> >So, here is the scenario:
> >
> > Wallet Inspector steals all my black pearls.
> >
> > Enraged, I attack Wallet Inspector with my shiny katana.
> >
> > He auto-defends with his all powerful bow of doom.
> >
> >And here are the questions.
> >
> > 1) Does he actually auto-defend?
> >
> Yes.
Yes.
>
> > 2) If so, does he get an aggressor flag when he hits me?
> >
>
> No.
>
Yes, he does. For attacking someone who is not an agressor to him, he
becomes the agressor. I believe DD said they will deal with the fact
that he intended to run, not attack by having recall clear the agressor
flags.
So if the victim recalls home to suicide, or the thief recalls out to
escape instead of trying to fight back, he does not get a murder count.
> > 3) Can I report him for murder if I die to his bow?
> >
>
> No.
Yes. See above.
>
> > 4) If he is guarded, will his creatures attack me?
> > If so, will he be responsible if they kill me?
>
This one I honestly don't know.
> Here's the scenario: You see Wally going after your pearls, you get
<snip>
> the OTHER guy sees him, knows he's a thief, and whacks him. Wally is
> permanently "gray" to the authorities so no one can guard-whack any of
> you and you all know that for at least one real-week after he
> attempted to attack you he's whackable.
If you attack a thief in town *who has not stolen in the last few
minutes* you will be guard whacked.
It is in the wilderness that they can be attacked without penalty.
Basicly a Perma-flag that is not good in town, but is also not cleared
on death.
Davian
Michael Ball
In the new system, if a thief steals from my character, and I get no warning
that a theft has occurred (total success), but *I* notice that a bag has gone
missing, can I attack the thief and not turn grey (and guard whacked!!).??
This is my biggest pet peeve in the current system.
Also, is it possible to have system messages made audable (e.g. "You are being
thieved from Fafhard" *bing* *bing*). I sometimes am busy doing 50 things and
those light grey system messages are missed. By the time I check my journal
the guy is long gone.
Thanks,
Lil