Anatomy of a scam
gil
proliferating like crazy. Perusing Tradespot LS I saw the report of an
attempted trade window scam. I thought I'd "analyze" it, so folks could
keep it from happening to them.
The post follows in quotations, my analysis in interspersed in
[brackets]. I'm 99.99999% sure the analysis is correct:
"we agreed on purchasing the house... then he says, "alright ill pick
you up, then i gotta log off this char real fast and my friend whos
sitting next to me will do the trade, i told him what ya want and
everything, k?" the deal was for gold + a vet statue."
[the char that initiated the trade/scam is the scammers real char, on
the scammers real account. He used the real char/acct to show the mark
that he really owned the house, in case the mark wanted the seller to
change the house name to something of the buyers choosing - a common
thing asked to prove home ownership. The "friend" was the scammer on
his/her dummy account, he/she transfered to his/her dummy account in
case the scammer got caught, so the scammer wouldn't lose his/her real
acct.]
"he brings me to his house, then dissapears. his friend appears, then
first says, are you a theif? I'm like, Yeah, this is my thief
character... and he's ilke.. Oh I don't deal with thieves. Okay lets do
this real quick throw all your stuff in this bag and lets make it quick
and clean."
[First, the "are you a thief?" stuff was setting the stage, to pressure
the mark to do something stupid, as we'll see next. The "...let's do
this real quick.." is another attempt to pressure the mark. Second,
putting the stuff in a bag is the crux of the scam - never ever put
anything in any type of container when doing a trade.]
"I'm like, no i'm not putting it in a bag. Then he goes off on how I
need to put it in a bag because if i don't, then I will just steal the
gold right back from him since I am a thief. I'm like, wtf, you are
riding an ethy, and you don't know that checks aren't stealable?"
[we see that the "are you a thief" stuff was the scammers attempt to
pressure the mark, and put the mark on the defensive, so the mark would
feel pressured to "prove" they're not dishonest. It also is an attempt
to spin the journal recording of the transaction in case the mark pages
for harassment/exploiting, and the journal is saved for OSI. As the
mark said, the gold check is newbified/blessed, as is the statue, so
they can't be stolen - unless they're not in the main backpack - putting
them in a bag would mean they wouldn't be in the main pack. That's not
the entire purpose of the scammer wanting them in a bag, there's other
reasons too that folks need to watch out for.]
"Obviously, a scam. BEWARE."
[no shit Sherlock]
----end of post--------
Lessons:
-never ever put anything in any type of container, or accept anything in
a container, when using the "secure" trade window. There's been various
exploits with that since day one.
-be suspicious of everything, such as "why is he having his friend
finalize the trade?"
-if anyone does anything to try to pressure you, or make you feel
guilty, don't proceed.
-use checks, and understand they're blessed (or newibfied, don't
remember which - the important thing is that they're
unstealable/unloosable as long as they're in you main pack).
-scammers use dummy accounts to protect their main account in case
they're caught, so watch out for things that suggest that the char
you're dealing with is new, or they switched to another char, or there's
a delay that would allow them to switch to another account, or the like.
-if you're getting a house, have the seller change the house sign to
something you suggest, to prove they're the owner. If it's a very
expensive item then use a TS broker, and read up on their site how to do
so - don't take anyone else's word on how to do it, use the TS
procedure.
-the TS site has several good pages on how to not be scammed, read
them. http://uo.tradespot.net/?news.trade:list
http://uo.tradespot.net/?message.lakesuperior.active.1:view.2615
http://uo.tradespot.net/?message.scammeralerts.active.1:view.21
TS hacker/scammer ICQ list:
http://uo.tradespot.net/?news.hackerscammeralerts:list
The OSI site has a blurb on it too http://support.uo.com/scam.html
-did I mention never ever put anything in a container?
-did I mention be suspicious?
-trust your instincts
gil
Kiril Threndor
their stuff in a bag. I dunno how many times people are told not to do
this, I find it hard to feel sympathy for anyone who falls for it.
richard cortese
news:3cfb5d34...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> Almost everytime someone loses out in a trade it is because they put
> their stuff in a bag. I dunno how many times people are told not to do
> this, I find it hard to feel sympathy for anyone who falls for it.
My oldest son just lost a Felucca sandstone to a scam. Don't feel sorry for
him as he was repeatedly told he is not sophisticated enough to do a trade
without me or his younger brother around. He refuses to keep up to date vis
a vis like gil does on scams. Scammer parted with "Fuck you" and banned him
from his former house.
He was mostly playing with my 2nd account and dropped out after the loss.
Just means I sell off the assests that can't be held on the other two
accounts and save $10/month.
Derek Lyons
>-trust your instincts
Sadly, based on the people I used to deal with in my RL job... Most
people don't have any instincts. They've been trained to grab a
bargain when they see one.
D.
Mercillus
"gil" <g...@qwest.net> wrote in message news:3CFB0FB9...@qwest.net...
*snips all*
This scam only works in felluca though right?
In Trammel, there is nothing to worry about wrt this scam, as you cant steal
from players.
Mercillus
gil
> In Trammel, there is nothing to worry about wrt this scam, as you cant steal
> from players.
Do not listen to merci, the intended scam works anywhere, tram and fel
both.
Why am I not surprised that merci is spreading misleading, inaccurate,
and false information about scamming...
gil
Mercillus
"gil" <g...@qwest.net> wrote in message news:3CFBF204...@qwest.net...
I DONT KNOW HOW THE SCAM WORKS.
AND I DONT SCAM PEOPLE.
FFS
I thought here was how the scam works:
_______
You get the person to put the checks in the bag, and you goto transfer the
house. They put the bag in the trade window. You use stealing skill, target
bag. Game will say "cannot steal item in trade window", but you now have the
bag on lasttarget.
You wait 3 seconds, and use skill stealing again. Cancel trade window, and
immediately hit last target button. Result: The bag goes back into their
back[ack when you cancel trade window, and you steal the bag with the check
straight out of their backpack before they have a chance to figure out what
is going on.
________
I thought THAT was how the scam works.
FROM YOURE REACTION IM OBVIOUSLY WRONG, AND I THEREFORE DONT HAVE A CLUE HOW
THE FUCKING SCAM WORKS, NOT THAT I WOULD EVER USE IT ANYWAY.
OK?????????????
Mercillus
Cain Bloodlust
You seem to be quite familiar with the mechanics of the scam. In fact,
this is worse than a scam, it's an exploit of a bug. So how many people DID
you scam with this knowledge? Why are you posting this? Guilty
conscience? Trying to redeem yourself?
Cain
gil
>
> "gil" <g...@qwest.net> wrote in message news:3CFBF204...@qwest.net...
> > Mercillus wrote:
> >
> > > In Trammel, there is nothing to worry about wrt this scam, as you cant
> steal
> > > from players.
> >
> > Do not listen to merci, the intended scam works anywhere, tram and fel
> > both.
> >
> > Why am I not surprised that merci is spreading misleading, inaccurate,
> > and false information about scamming...
> >
>
> I DONT KNOW HOW THE SCAM WORKS.
>
> AND I DONT SCAM PEOPLE.
*sigh*
Here we go again, round 5734639 in merci's "I'm not a scammer" routine.
Here's one of Merci's (Chris Godsell is his name, he's changed his
posting name twice to avoid killfiles) very first newsgroup posts,
preceeded by googles URL to the post:
From: Chris Godsell (cgod...@btinternet.com)
Subject: Marriage
Newsgroups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online
View: Complete Thread (5 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2000/06/24
I am relatively new to Ultima Online, and would like to know how
marriage
works in the game.
1) Please could anybody tell me how marriage works? How do two
characters
get married?
2) When two characters get married, does it have any implications or is
it
just an aesthetical thing? Does the wife get access to the husbands bank
account or anything like that?
3) If so I have thought of a tactic: Make a female character with long
blonde hair and marry a man, get all his money and run off. This female
character will be a mule character and can transfer all the money to
your
main character!!! This tactic could work quite well!
From Chris Godsell
------end of merci's early ng post-----------
You had just started playing UO, and with all the things you could do in
UO, one of the first things you thought of was to try to seduce someone
ingame to loot them - ie scam them.
Another example of your scamming is your scamming of the house deed from
Ice.
The story, in your own words, from the thread "Icelady you are a LIAR,
stop trying to MUDDEN my name." is:
"I had marked 16 possible spots and put a great deal of effort in and
managed
to place my villa.
Then the next day I get an ICQ from Icelady saying she placed a Large
tower
and a Log cabin (she has 2 accounts) in Trammel. She then said she would
give me the small tower free of charge, so (not knowing you couldnt have
2
houses) I went over to felluca to get it thinking it would be good to
have a
house in Tram and a house in Fell. But the house couldnt be transfered
to me
so I asked for the deed instead, as If I had not asked for the deed I
would
effectively have lost the 80k gift from her. Now I look back I can see
that
I was greedy at the time, and I can see why she thought I was a scammer.
I
now apologise for this "questionable" action of mine."
Ice's version was "I ask you if you got shut out in house placement, and
you said YES. That is when I told you I would give you the small
tower."
So, you led Ice to believe you had been shut out in house placement when
trammel opened for housing, when in fact you had placed a villa during
house placement, so she gave you a deed (when her attempt to give you
the small tower failed). When she found out you had scammed her she
reported it, and you called her a liar.
After your denials and lies didn't work, you tried your "why are you so
mean to me" crap, and when that didn't work you finally started to sorta
tell the truth, saying:
"But I apologise for being greedy and taking the small tower deed, I
should have said that I already had a house, although at the time I
didnt think she would mind at all, I thought shed be happy for me that
id placed a house in Trammel."
and:
"It was a bit bad of me to take the deed of you when I had just placed a
house in trammel. The reason why I did it was because I had 0 gold, plus
I didnt think youd mind, let alone turn it into a lie to mudden my
name."
Later you said you'd return her deed (but only after your denials, lies,
etc. didn't work, and after you no longer needed the gold, you'd already
placed your large tower) but at the same time you said to her "Ah yes, I
will return that =) But when I do I want a full apology and
acknoledgement that I have returned it."
You wanted her to apologize to you, after you scammed her and then
called her a liar.
When asked why should she apologize to you, you replied:
"So when I asked for Ice to "apologise", I meant for her to apologise
for accusing me of being a scammer. At the time I was very new to the
game, and didnt even know how to scam anyone."
You also said in another post in that same "Icelady you are a LIAR, stop
trying to MUDDEN my name." thread:
"HOW CAN A BLOODY NEWBIE SCAM SOMEONE????????"
and:
"In the first couple of months I had UO I was just and innocent newbie
(albeit well off at that, I was good at making money being a warrior)
who
didnt know what he was doing, let alone how to scam someone."
Well, we saw from one of your first posts to the ng that newbie you was
trying to figure out how to use marriage to scam someone.
> I thought here was how the scam works:
snip
> FROM YOURE REACTION IM OBVIOUSLY WRONG, AND I THEREFORE DONT HAVE A CLUE HOW
> THE FUCKING SCAM WORKS, NOT THAT I WOULD EVER USE IT ANYWAY.
>
> OK?????????????
You sure put a lot of thought into how something that you claim you
wouldn't use would work...
You have a history of scamming then denying it then admitting it then
denying it.
You have a history of lying to us then denying it then admitting it then
denying it.
Your behavior here in the last week shows you haven't changed one bit.
gil
gil
>
> "gil" <g...@qwest.net> wrote in message news:3CFBF204...@qwest.net...
> > Mercillus wrote:
> >
> > > In Trammel, there is nothing to worry about wrt this scam, as you cant
> steal
> > > from players.
> >
> > Do not listen to merci, the intended scam works anywhere, tram and fel
> > both.
> >
> > Why am I not surprised that merci is spreading misleading, inaccurate,
> > and false information about scamming...
> >
> > gil
>
> You seem to be quite familiar with the mechanics of the scam.
Fairly knowledgable, yes. I know that there's been several ways to
exploit secure trade windows since that feature was introduced, and that
there's been a spate of reports of people being scammed with them
lately. A reading of TS shows reports of this daily.
> In fact, this is worse than a scam, it's an exploit of a bug.
I agree that it was an attempt to scam by exploiting the secure trade
window.
> So how many people DID you scam with this knowledge?
Thousands. Bazillions. Everyone and their dog. Some folks twice.
<sarcasm off>
> Why are you posting this?
You have to ask why someone would post a "how to avoid getting scammed"
post?
> Guilty conscience?
For?
> Trying to redeem yourself?
For?
I've posted a number of "how to avoid getting scammed" posts over the
years. Since OSI has taken their recent "not get involved with scams"
stance I've been doing it more frequently.
I suppose the TS folks are also guilty of scamming/exploiting - they
must be by your logic, because they also post on how to avoid being
scammed.
The OSI folks too, they must be scammers/exploiters by your logic,
because they also have a page on how to not get scammed.
And when police officers tell folks how not to get robbed, etc., by your
logic it must be because they have a guilty conscience because they
robbed so many folks.
My turn for a question - did my advice on how to not get scammed
interfere with your "gameplay"?
gil
Skinn...@hotmail.com
wrote:
You know, I have had trouble with the stealing skill since I started
this game. That and player looting have always been, in my humble
opinion, the two chief causes of grief in the game. If you took both
out of the game perminantly none of this crap would ever be a
consideration. Period!
And personally I don;t see how the game would suffer in the least!!!
Raven KT
All info on how to avoid being scammed, both yours and even Mercillus is
always welcome. We have to keep an eye open. "Be careful out there"
Raven, Knights Templar, Europa
Mercillus
"gil" <g...@qwest.net> wrote in message news:3CFC2F35...@qwest.net...
> Mercillus wrote:
*snips the gazillion word post*
Nobody gives a shit about all youre bullshit.
How long did it take you to write that post? 3 hours?
If I were sad, I would make a proper reply, but only a loser would spend
that long trawling through archives and collecting so much information.
For everybody else reading this, most of what you said was a lie, as Ice
offered to give me the small tower waaaaaaaaay before Trammel Placement, and
waaaaaaaaaaaay before I got a villa. And no, I dont have any "evidence" of
this, as it was an ingame conversation in June 2000.
And to gil, youre obviously a loser IRL.
Mercillus
Mercillus
"gil" <g...@qwest.net> wrote in message news:3CFC2F35...@qwest.net...
gil,
I forgot to add:
I notice how in youre gazillion word post, you "conveniantly" failed to make
any comment w.r.t my mechanism for how the scam works. Not that you could,
as youre post was most probably bullshit.
IOW, I think youre a liar.
Mercillus
Jared of Europa
Bloodlust" <ca...@paranoid.com> proclaimed:
Hmm, just why is Gil under suspicion suddenly? The existence of this
scam, if not the actual mechanics, is fairly common knowledge for
those who read the boards or Tradespot.
Jared of Europa
-*-
We are not made, for Labour and Trade
that Fools on each other impose
Brona
[snip]
Methinks he doth protest too much.
--
Kevin
Brona
> > So how many people DID you scam with this knowledge?
>
> Thousands. Bazillions. Everyone and their dog. Some folks twice.
> <sarcasm off>
Hey! Can I have some of your stuff? =P
--
Kevin
Insane Ranter
<Skinn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:m80pfu88dao8atbik...@4ax.com...
How would you take faction sigels?
Cain Bloodlust
I just saw you make baseless accusations and implications of other posters.
I figured turabout was fair play.
Cain
Cain Bloodlust
> scam, if not the actual mechanics, is fairly common knowledge for
> those who read the boards or Tradespot.
He's not, he just likes to point fingers, I figured one should be pointed at
him to see how he likes it.
Cain
gil
>
> "gil" <g...@qwest.net> wrote in message news:3CFC2F35...@qwest.net...
> > Mercillus wrote:
>
> *snips the gazillion word post*
>
> Nobody gives a shit about all youre bullshit.
Then why reply?
> If I were sad, I would make a proper reply
Good thing you didn't make a proper reply then.
> For everybody else reading this, most of what you said was a lie
Ummmm, I quoted you, as google will attest. Even you are calling
yourself a liar.
>, as Ice
> offered to give me the small tower waaaaaaaaay before Trammel Placement, and
> waaaaaaaaaaaay before I got a villa. And no, I dont have any "evidence" of
> this, as it was an ingame conversation in June 2000.
She offered before trammel placement. You placed a villa during trammel
placement. After trammel placement you then told her that you hadn't
placed a house, so she tried to give you a house, which wouldn't
transfer to you because you had already placed a house (the villa that
you lied about not having), so she gave you a deed instead, that you
accepted - the scam.
Your "she offered before trammel placement" is true, your lies/scam
occured after trammel placement.
I'm not surprised you're calling me a liar, just like you originally
called Ice a liar, before you later admitted she had told the truth.
> And to gil, youre obviously a loser IRL.
How did your "marriage" go, did you have fun creating a blonde female
char to seduce some guy to loot him?
gil
gil
>
> "gil" <g...@qwest.net> wrote in message news:3CFC2F35...@qwest.net...
>
> gil,
>
> I forgot to add:
>
> I notice how in youre gazillion word post, you "conveniantly" failed to make
> any comment w.r.t my mechanism for how the scam works.
When trying to educate folks on how to not get scammed one has to walk a
thin line between providing enough information so that folks can protect
themselves, and not providing so much information that one is training
nascent scammers how to do the scam. Plus, it's against the TOS to post
how scams work.
My way of doing that here is to give general advice, such as: avoid
containers of any type in the secure trade window, trust your instincts,
don't be pressured, be suspicious, read the advice provided by folks
like TS and OSI, etc. (see original post for more).
Another reason to give general advice instead of specific advice is that
scams/exploits change. Some get fixed, some new ones pop up. General
advice helps one guard against variations on scams/exploits. Regarding
the containers and secure trade windows, there's been several variations
on this. Some have been fixed, apparently not all. Plus, old bugs tend
to creep back into OSI code, so "fixed" exploits often become "unfixed"
over time.
I will not go into details on how scams/exploits work.
> Not that you could,
> as youre post was most probably bullshit.
>
> IOW, I think youre a liar.
*laughs*
gil
gil
When Cain first appeared here he was a sycophant of some racist looter
guy who got his jollies looting innocents and then posting pics on his
(the looter's, not Cain's) webpage. Dani posted how she thinks the
racist looter guy is Cain, not just his sycophant, but Cain denied being
the racist looter's sock puppet. When this grief behavior was
criticized, Cain defended it, even using the classic griefer "it's just
a game" excuse. I wrote him off as just another griefer at that point.
When Myrex/Rexx was taking a lot of abuse from some buttheads here, and
was thinking of leaving (in his "With sadness..." thread, Cain's
response was:
"We should stop holding our breath and stomping our little feet. Then
take
a good look at ourselves in the mirror. My, we have been the
control-freak
haven't we."
-----------------
After that, and some other, similar, behaviors, he settled down and
became a fairly decent member of the group, until this.
According to Cain, having knowledge of exploits means one is an
exploiter, right?
In that light...
-----------------
From: Cain Bloodlust (ca...@paranoid.com)
Subject: Re: what's this exploit?
Newsgroups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online
View: Complete Thread (6 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2002-05-08 08:38:26 PST
"vince garcia" <vgga...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CD59C...@ix.netcom.com...
> Recently a horde of hanging lanterns and some hanging skins have been
> showing up on AOL shard. Where the heck did THIS exploit come from? Has
> OSI stopped it yet, does anyone know?
There's a new duping bug for stackables.
Cain
---------------------
By Cain's logic, Cain is a duper.
and
----------
From: Cain Bloodlust (ca...@spam.com)
Subject: Re: Instant Kill (exploit)
Newsgroups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online
View: Complete Thread (26 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2001-08-25 23:32:08 PST
I'm sure that OSI is monitoring the bug boards as well. I think this
is
evident because the bugs that have been posted here are completely
useless.
Cain
--------
By Cain's logic, he's used all the bugs posted on the bug boards too.
Interesting logic, that.
gil
gil
It's interesting how your admittedly baseless attack on me was done in
response to my thread on helping people not get scammed, and not
elsewhere. The attempted scam that I analyzed was on LS. You play on
LS, (as do I). Interesting...
My "...accusations and implications..." regarding merci are well
documented, and use his own words, as google, and long time posters
here, will attest. Same with derek.
Considering your history in the group, you're behavior here is not
surprising.
gil
gil
Honest folks don't mind scrutiny. Point away.
Fighting jerks ingame and ingroup has always reaped this sort of
response, it's part of the "job", one gets used to it. The more
vehement the response, and the more "lub" we get, the more it tells us
we're successful.
So, thanks! :)
gil
gil
Sure! I got lots, especially dog biscuits (why did I have to scam
dogs? I hear cats have better loot ;).
Just put a container in the secure trade window, and...
*grins*
gil
Cain Bloodlust
> response to my thread on helping people not get scammed, and not
Wrong, it was in response of you accusing Merc of deliberately posting
misinformation. It was obvious to me that he had no knowlege of the
"trade-window" bug and that his implication was that only in Fel could
someone steal the bag. Prior offenses should never be used to accuse
someone of a new crime, now should they?
> Considering your history in the group, you're behavior here is not
> surprising.
Nolo contendere.
Your desire to inform people of scams is commendable. A person of
character, such as yourself, shouldn't debase himself by trying to put down
other people.
Oh well, if you want to crawl in the shit, with the rest of us scum, you are
more than welcome.
Cheers!
Cain
gil
>
> > It's interesting how your admittedly baseless attack on me was done in
> > response to my thread on helping people not get scammed, and not
>
> Wrong, it was in response of you accusing Merc of deliberately posting
> misinformation. It was obvious to me that he had no knowlege of the
> "trade-window" bug and that his implication was that only in Fel could
> someone steal the bag.
Merci did deliberately post misinformation.
I agree that he has/had no idea how the exploit works. However, merci
didn't "imply" anything, he deliberately said:
"In Trammel, there is nothing to worry about wrt this scam, as you cant
steal
from players."
Had he phrased it as a question then I would agree with you, and would
have responded differently, but he deliberately posted misinformation,
that if followed would lead to innocent folks being scammed, when he
obviously didn't know enough to make such a blanket statement.
The fact that merci, a scammer, deliberately posted misinformation that
could lead to innocents being scammed, is part of the reason for why I
responded as I did.
> Prior offenses should never be used to accuse
> someone of a new crime, now should they?
Our past behaviors should be taken into account when judging our
behavior when they're relevent, and when the person in unrepentant, and
continues to do them, such as in this case.
If past behaviors are unrelated, or the person is repentant and has
ceased such behaviors, then I agree with you.
> > Considering your history in the group, you're behavior here is not
> > surprising.
>
> Nolo contendere.
>
> Your desire to inform people of scams is commendable. A person of
> character, such as yourself, shouldn't debase himself by trying to put down
> other people.
>
> Oh well, if you want to crawl in the shit, with the rest of us scum, you are
> more than welcome.
I challenge your contention that exposing merci's continuing
lies/scamming is debasing oneself, or crawling in shit. Nice attempt at
character assasination by innuendo, though...
> Cheers!
You have been a decent poster here for months, after a rocky start.
What happened to you as of late?
gil
Skinn...@hotmail.com
wrote:
Sorry Insane, I don;t know anything about factions cause I don;t
participate in that asp[ect of the game. If it has to do with looting
for proof or reward then it could easily be allowed for only those who
are participating in factions. Just like it is allowed for party
members to loot the corpse of a fallen comrade.
But to just allow a player to walk up to another and take something
scott free or to allow a player to outright kill an innocent and take
his posessions and make it part of a game, to me, is rediculous. It
almost made me quit the game as a moral principal just before the
Trammel Split.
Cain Bloodlust
> lies/scamming is debasing oneself, or crawling in shit. Nice attempt at
> character assasination by innuendo, though...
I know that he decieved someone into giving him a house, but that happened a
couple of years ago. I thought that the issue had been dropped a long time
ago and he was no longer a pariah. I haven't been keeping up with the
boards lately.
I thought you were attacking him based on that incident, and a long time
grudge-war. I was not aware of his continuing lies and scamming.
I spoke without knowing all the information and attacked you for no valid
reason. For that, I appologize.
Cain
WindsorFox {SS}
Cain Bloodlust wrote:
>
> You seem to be quite familiar with the mechanics of the scam. In fact,
> this is worse than a scam, it's an exploit of a bug. So how many people DID
> you scam with this knowledge? Why are you posting this? Guilty
> conscience? Trying to redeem yourself?
>
> Cain
>
I certainly hope that reply was intended for Mercillus
and not Gil.
WindsorFox {SS}
Mercillus wrote:
Pardon Sir Jackass, your begaining post to this group speaks for it's self.
WindsorFox {SS}
Mercillus wrote:
That acusation, however; coming from a proven liar, is meaningless.
gil
>
> > I challenge your contention that exposing merci's continuing
> > lies/scamming is debasing oneself, or crawling in shit. Nice attempt at
> > character assasination by innuendo, though...
>
> I know that he decieved someone into giving him a house, but that happened a
> couple of years ago. I thought that the issue had been dropped a long time
> ago and he was no longer a pariah. I haven't been keeping up with the
> boards lately.
>
> I thought you were attacking him based on that incident, and a long time
> grudge-war. I was not aware of his continuing lies and scamming.
To clarify, I'm not aware of any recent scamming of his comparable to
the house thing, or the "seduce someone to marry them and then loot
them" thing, and have no reason to think he's still doing that sort of
thing. His recent lies/scams are more innocuous, such as his recent 'I
need a large tower on SP for my guildmeets' - when the truth is that his
guild is only 2 of his chars, no one else. He doesn't need a large
tower for that, it was a lie/scam. It was relatively harmless compared
to the house thing, but it's a sign that that behavior of his
continues.
Other recent, more serious, examples include his saying my post about
his old house scam was mostly lies, as is his 'Ice said she'd give me a
house before I placed one' statement - although that's technically true,
the scam occured after he placed a house and then lied to Ice about his
not having placed a house. He deliberately twisted the truth to mislead
us, to deny he scammed her. I call that a "lie/scam".
I've been referring to these behaviors as "lying/scamming" us. If he'd
just come out and tell the truth, and drop the 'I didn't scam anyone, or
lie to the group' stuff that he comes out with every couple of months,
that would prove he's changed and I wouldn't be responding to this stuff
- because there'd be nothing to respond to, and because he'd have
demonstrated that he's changed. Instead, every few months, he continues
to lie to us to try to scam us into thinking he never scammed anyone, or
lied to us.
His recent behavior is why I'm on his case here, I didn't dredge up the
past out of the blue to take a shot at him.
> I spoke without knowing all the information and attacked you for no valid
> reason. For that, I appologize.
With the above clarification in mind, if you wish to rethink/retract
this, no problem. Whichever you decide, thanks. I understand now why
you said what you did, and have no problem with it. This is in keeping
with the Cain I've come to know the last year or so.
A question for us to ponder - what's worse, criticizing someone when
they lie/scam, or ignoring it and letting them get away with it?
gil
Trillan
<snip>
> Considering your history in the group, you're behavior here is not
> surprising.
Rule of thumb: no one named Cain, Caine, Kane or Kaine is ever worth
listening to.
gil
Cain and I clashed over a year ago, then until recently we got along
(from my point of view anyways). IIRC, when we found out Castile was
alive, and when a Dragon (who shall not be named) came here to gloat
over that topic, Cain posted a very considerate and decent post about it
(I looked for the post but couldn't find it), or something like that.
That post from Cain changed my view about him 180 degrees. Our recent
spat seems to be over a misunderstanding, and appears to be settled, if
you follow the thread, and assuming your news server is current.
All rules are meant to be broken, this appears to be one such time :)
gil
Cain Bloodlust
> they lie/scam, or ignoring it and letting them get away with it?
I would say that depends on the motives of the person who lies.
One of my life-long friends used to lie to us all the time when we were in
high school and college. He'd make up stories like his grandfather being a
millionaire, and leaving all the money to him. When his house of cards
would crumble, he would disappear for 3 or 4 months. Then he would come
back again, and start fresh. After a while, we learned when he was telling
us the truth and when he was lying. Instead of challenging the lies, we
would simply ignore them. After a while, he realized that he didn't have to
make up stories to earn our friendship. We've been friends ever since.
I can think of another situation, more relevant to these boards, where not
discussing it publicly was the right thing to do.
However, if you know the guy is lying just to be a jackass, then you should
criticize.
My lesson in all this is to do a bit more research before attacking someone.
In this case I should have responded to you "I don't think that Merc is
trying to misinform anyone. He probably doesn't know about the trade window
exploit.", instead of attacking you.
Cain
gil
>
> > A question for us to ponder - what's worse, criticizing someone when
> > they lie/scam, or ignoring it and letting them get away with it?
>
> I would say that depends on the motives of the person who lies.
>
> One of my life-long friends used to lie to us all the time when we were in
> high school and college. He'd make up stories like his grandfather being a
> millionaire, and leaving all the money to him. When his house of cards
> would crumble, he would disappear for 3 or 4 months. Then he would come
> back again, and start fresh. After a while, we learned when he was telling
> us the truth and when he was lying. Instead of challenging the lies, we
> would simply ignore them. After a while, he realized that he didn't have to
> make up stories to earn our friendship. We've been friends ever since.
When there's a foundation of friendship, when we like someone, that
makes it easier.
Now you have me thinking about the "chicken or egg" part of this - do we
dislike someone and so then judge them more harshly (say for lying), or
do we judge someone harshly (say for lying) and so then dislike them?
Generally the best answer to such polemics is "a combination of both".
> My lesson in all this is to do a bit more research before attacking someone.
That's a lesson I need to work on myself.
Thanks for the well-thought out responses.
gil
Trillan
<snip>
> Our recent
> spat seems to be over a misunderstanding, and appears to be settled, if
> you follow the thread, and assuming your news server is current.
My news server is crap, so I'll take your word that his posts somehow make
sense. :)
> All rules are meant to be broken, this appears to be one such time :)
Indeed. It's a rule of thumb that has held true for a few years now, but I
expected an exception sooner or later. :)
(I was wrong to put the word "never" in that sentence; it got to my fingers
without going past my brain.)