citizen of balance
Rock
------------
I have been inactive for some time, but have recently played a bit to
see what AoS was all about. From the outside it seems like an overall
improvement. There are a lot of negative threads from folks who have
been active players, so I know it isn't perfect. In a changing world,
what is?
An old itch needs scratching, and thinking about it has led to some
really late nights. I would really like to play a monk \
martial-artist type character. Several years ago we discussed a
rather complex proposal (link below). The key philosophy got buried
in details. Now I offer a simpler idea which does not even involve a
new skill.
Skills
------
The key for a monk is balance. For a martial artist, ability to fight
is not enough. Necessary skills are:
1) Wrestling - fighting and defense with hands and feet
2) Anatomy - knowledge of own body and that of opponent
3) Focus - concentrated awareness and ability to relax
4) Tactics - trained knowledge of martial techniques
These skills work together as a "martial arts" capability. Once a
character has at least 60 in each, he starts gaining special martial
prowess. In fact, the law of balance demands that the minimum of
these four skills determines how skilled the monk is. I call this low
value "WAFT factor". When all four reach 100, the character is a GM
Monk. If three are at 100 and one is at 80, it is if his martial arts
"skill" were 80.
* WAFT = min(wrestling, anatomy, focus, tactics)
Stats
-----
Stats (sttributes) need be balanced as well. The maximum strength,
intelligence, or dexterity score is 90. The minimum is 60. If any
one of the three stats goes above or below this range, the character
has chosen to abandon the life of a monk, and WAFT score no longer
matters. On the other hand, the closer the three stats come to each
other, the greater the monks abilities. The formula for balance bonus
is:
* BB = 5 - ((maxStat - minStat) / 6)
BB can be thought of as an "exceptional" increase to damage done.
Weapons are exceptional when made by a talented craftsman. For a monk
fighting with hands and feet, the extra talent derives from his inner
balance.
Another benefit of BB is that it increases all resistances. If BB
were 5, a naked monk would still have 5% resistance to physical, fire,
cold, and energy damage. As armor is added, the BB% is added to the
other resistances gained.
Damage and Speed
----------------
According to Stratics, base wrestling damage is 1 to 5. Even with the
maximum 5 extra points from BB, damage is a non-impressive 6 to 10.
The player's WAFT score is the main contributor to damage. For the
most part, every three WAFT points above 61 adds 1 to the damage
range. At 60 points, martial arts abilities are enabled, but the
player is simply a normal wrestler, perhaps doing some slight extra
damage due to BB. At 61, he gains his first additional point, and
after that, the 3 WAFT for one damage rule applies. This math allows
WAFT to add up to 14 points in wrestling damage.
* damage for GM Monk, no BB = 15 to 19
* damage for GM Monk, 5 BB = 20 to 24
For reference, base damage of a normal quarterstaff is about 16 to 20.
An exceptional quarterstaff ranges from 21 to 24. It (normal or
exceptional) has a speed of 48.
Stratics doesn't list a speed for wrestling. I propose a base speed
of 45, but BB would increase this. The maximum five points of BB
would set wrestling speed to 50.
Parry
-----
Defensively, the Monk has one more advantage. He has a parry bonus
added to any natural parry ability.
* PB = WAFT / 5
Even if the GM Monk had 0 regular parry skill, he would still have 20
points deriving from WAFT. And if he had 100 parry skill, the WAFT
bonus would bring him to 120. With 20 points of parry, a shieldless
monk would avoid 5% of the blows which would otherwise hit him.
With shield, 20 parry would avoid 10% of the blows. Obviously,
fighting with hands and feet and shield is a bit awkward. If the Monk
were wielding only a shield, his wrestling speed would drop by 7. He
could, however, use the shield offensively, adding an extra point or
two of damage to his blows. Higher parry levels would not increase
this factor.
Cost
----
Does all this come free? No. When fighting with a regular weapon,
both the weapon and the player's armor sustain damage. When using
hands and feet, a bit of extra wear would occur to armor. None of the
opponents blows are ever blocked by a weapon; all are blocked by the
Monk's body and armor.
The extra damage is somewhat less than a mace would inflict.
(Although mace damage would add to the extra wear while wrestling.)
Stratics says that a mace will cause damage equivalent to 1/2 the
damage absorbed by armor, typical 1 to 7 points of extra wear per
blow. For a strike against a Monk's metal armor, the wear would be
1/3 the damage absorbed by armor, or 1 to 5 points. For a strike
against a Monk's leather armor, the wear would be 1/5 this damage, or
1 to 3 points of extra wear. Yes, leather can be damaged easier, but
a Monk in leather is less encumbered and can minimize the extra wear.
The other cost associated with being a Monk relates to chi and a
special item he must carry in his backpack -- a "dedicated" power
crystal. This is the only new item of this proposal. It is a normal
power crystal from an iron golem which has been brought to a shrine
(including Chaos) and dedicated to the virtue represented. At that
point, it can be activated. During battle, it converts mana to chi at
a low, steady rate. Chi is the power used to accomplish the extra
martial arts abilities. At 40 Battle Focus skill, the extra mana
generation exactly compensates for the mana drain of martial arts (2
mana every 10 seconds).
Eventually the power crystal will wear out, and the martial artist
must activate another dedicated crystal in his backpack. Drain only
occurs while in war mode.
Other Weapons
-------------
There is one more benefit associated with the WAFT score. One weapon
from each of the 4 classes experiences a skill increase equal to
WAFT/2. The extra weapon skill will not caiuse the total skill to
exceed the maximum (normally 100). The weapons associated with
martial arts are:
* wrestling -- hands and feet (base skill as described above)
* mace -- quarterstaff (base skill with qstaff is WAFT/2)
* swords -- katana (base skill with katana is WAFT/2)
* fencing -- war fork (base skill with war fork is WAFT/2)
* bow -- composite bow (base skill with compbow is WAFT/2)
For example, to have GM-level abilities with a qstaff, a GM monk needs
only 50 points of mace. When using one of these weapons, Balance
Bonus does not apply; the weapon's exceptional rating is what counts.
However, BB% damage resistance is still active. The parry bonus also
applies, but with no speed penalty if equipped with shield. The
shield would not result in any extra damage to the opponent, though.
(Other weapons may be used, but skill with them is not enhanced by
WAFT. For example, GM skill with a kryss would take 100 actual points
of fencing.)
Special Moves
-------------
Each weapon, including wrestling, has its normal special moves. A
variation with wrestling is made, however. Normally, Disarm is the
primary special move, and to activate the player must have 70
wrestling and 80 points of Arms Lore. Paralyzing Blow is the
secondary move, and it requires the player to have 90 points of
wrestling and 80 points of anatomy.
A monk needs no arms lore to disarm, simply 70 points of WAFT. 80
points of WAFT is sufficient to allow the monk to use a paralyzing
blow.
The mana cost of special moves is reduced by the Balance Bonus. These
five or less points are on top of reductions due to other special
skill combinations.
RFC
---
If you made it this far, I would be very interested in your feedback,
positive or negative.
* Ref for the really curious
** my original martial arts proposal (April 2000)
*** http://groups.google.com/groups?th=1d1f67078cc1d990
-- Rich
--- http://rocq.home.att.net/
Cyrus
>new skill.
>
Hate to break it to you, but no one from OSI reads this group anymore, so your
well thought out and very detailed idea will just be another curio within the
group. :}
We're more a collection of fans that gather to gripe and complain about the
changing game collectively, rather than grabbing the closest Compound Bow,
hopping on a bank's roof and sniping Dev Team members.
*chuckles*
As for wrestling, it now does 2-9(or 10) base damage, Stratics is hideously out
of date in alot of areas...
It's almost a competant combat skill now, but bare hand speed(even at 100 dex)
is still rather pathetic.
I'd suggest posting your ideas on the Stratics message boards, though, it
sounds interesting, and they're the official message boards for UO since the
dissolution of the MyUO boards recently.
~Wandering Paladin~
`Cyrus of Sosaria`
Rexx Magnus
rec.games.computer.ultima.online writing in message
news:20030328012005...@mb-fu.news.cs.com
> As for wrestling, it now does 2-9(or 10) base damage, Stratics is
> hideously out of date in alot of areas...
> It's almost a competant combat skill now, but bare hand speed(even at
> 100 dex) is still rather pathetic.
Isn't it stupid? Fighting with bare hands should be faster than wielding
any weapon. That's what I like about AC - the unarmed skill is the
fastest, whilst not kicking out immensely high damage (pardon the pun) you
can buff gloves and boots that you wear for that little extra damage, but
because of the nature of non-wielded unarmed weapons, you can't have them
debuffed in PvP. :)
There are UA weapons that you can "wield" though of course, those will
then suffer a speed penalty - things such as Katar, Nekode (tree climbing
hooks) and Cestus (a kind of cudgel).
If only they'd made wrestling useful before I left UO. :(
--
UO & AC Herbal - http://www.rexx.co.uk/herbal
To email me change the domain to the above.
Cyrus
>any weapon.
True, i'd think coordinating your own bare hands would be alot more natural and
fluid than swinging around a two foot long sword...
>That's what I like about AC - the unarmed skill is the
>fastest, whilst not kicking out immensely high damage (pardon the pun) you
>can buff gloves and boots that you wear for that little extra damage
EQ had this as well, monks were pretty tough when unarmed, making for slightly
less painful corpse runs, and their weapon selection merely heaps more damage
on top of their base...add to that that their bare hands actually come close to
being more powerful than most of the epic weapons post level 50, and their
nasty tanks...
But monks have crap Defence, and poorer than would've been fair HPs, usually
gaining 30% less hps per level than the other melee classes, and nearly 50%
less than a warrior...
>If only they'd made wrestling useful before I left UO. :(
>
Not terribly useful still, though it proved pretty handy a couple weeks back
while i was in the Solen hive on a Naturalist quest.
As i'm roaming between nests, i came upon a pair of hunters near one of the
beetle pens.
I immediately noticed that they were getting knocked around pretty badly, and
tried to help out, but in the end had to settle for killing the pesky antlion
that followed me, and finishing off the two beetles that killed them before i
could ressurect the pair.
Once they were recovered, we chatted and i learned that the pair had come to
acquire a beetle for the young lady of the pair, and she nearly opted to leave
after the disaster.
I told them to stick around, and i'd get them a beetle soon enough.
So, i stepped into the pen, pulled a beetle a screen away to keep the adds off
us, and began hacking at it with my Kryss of power, backed with Consecrate
Weapons.
Once it got to about 1/3 life, i disarmed the kryss, and began pummeling it
with lazy fist blows. Actually managed to do enough damage to keep it slightly
off balance, but had to resort to a dagger to finish the subjugation
safely(luckily the tamer of the pair happened to also be a GM smith, and had a
spare dagger handy.)
Once it was successfully beaten down, it was tamed in a moment, and the happy
pair thanked me, rode off, and i continued my study of the nests.
It was a memorable event, if nothing else, but wrestling definately didn't
prove too great a help in the fight.
*oops, wandered off into a mini-story there...*
~Wandering Paladin~
`Cyrus of Sosaria`
*I WOULD like to see weapons added for wrestlers, though, Spiked Combat Gloves,
Katars, even Knuckle Padding would be nice...and some new wearables to complete
the martial artist look(a training Gi, for example)..of course, i'd also KILL
to see Dual Wielding added to UO, especially now that we can parry with our
weapons, but i doubt it will ever come to pass, though it sort of has a
precedent within the series, as Shamino utilized a Sword/Main Gauche combo in
Ultima 6 to great effect.*
*And for Dual Wielding, i'd suggest eliminating the Parry skill completely(soul
gems/crystals to transfer out the parry skill points without losing them would
come into play here, and you could put them into DW, but perhaps at only 50% of
your parry skill), and integrating it into each combat skill, so basically
aside from increased proficiency with your weapon type as you gain skill, you'd
also be able to parry blows at a higher ratio as you improved. That, or give us
an extra 100 skill points to fiddle with...820 max doesn't sound too
terrible...*
Rexx Magnus
rec.games.computer.ultima.online writing in message
news:20030328045709...@mb-fh.news.cs.com
> EQ had this as well, monks were pretty tough when unarmed, making for
> slightly less painful corpse runs, and their weapon selection merely
> heaps more damage on top of their base...add to that that their bare
> hands actually come close to being more powerful than most of the epic
> weapons post level 50, and their nasty tanks...
>
> But monks have crap Defence, and poorer than would've been fair HPs,
> usually gaining 30% less hps per level than the other melee classes, and
> nearly 50% less than a warrior...
Ah, the advantage of a classless system. :)
In AC, you have whatever skills you like - based on cost, some skills come
free depending on the heritage you choose. Sho (chinese/japanese heritage)
get the unarmed skill automatically - but the best way of working a good
template is getting the stats right. It's a bit annoying that the defense
skills rely on coordination and quickness, when unarmed relies on strength
and coordination. Dagger is the best way to go (being based on quickness
and coord) making it cheaper to raise groups of skills, but the damage
output is less.
Skin...@asbestos_underwear.com
>> Now I offer a simpler idea which does not even involve a
>>new skill.
>>
>
>Hate to break it to you, but no one from OSI reads this group anymore, so your
>well thought out and very detailed idea will just be another curio within the
>group. :}
>
>We're more a collection of fans that gather to gripe and complain about the
>changing game collectively, rather than grabbing the closest Compound Bow,
>hopping on a bank's roof and sniping Dev Team members.
>
>*chuckles*
We gripe? We complain?
Hehe
Andrew Smith
"Cyrus" <cyst...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20030328045709.23108.00000084@mb->
>That's what I like about AC - the unarmed skill is the
> >fastest, whilst not kicking out immensely high damage (pardon the pun)
you
> >can buff gloves and boots that you wear for that little extra damage
>
> EQ had this as well, monks were pretty tough when unarmed, making for
slightly
> less painful corpse runs, and their weapon selection merely heaps more
damage
> on top of their base...add to that that their bare hands actually come
close to
> being more powerful than most of the epic weapons post level 50, and their
> nasty tanks...
Ditto for Anarchy Online. The Martial Artist kicks serious butt, is fast and
has high evade skills, while sacrificing a little in the HP department.
I love the idea personally. I've often felt like slapping the odd jerk
around, and there's nothing quite like your bare hands :p
Rock
> Hate to break it to you, but no one from OSI reads this group anymore, so your
> well thought out and very detailed idea will just be another curio within the
> group. :}
I know this isn't an official group, but my 2000 proposal got very
good feedback here. The discussion covered such things as game theory
and monk ethics and lifestyle. Thus I decided to post here first,
learn some more, hopefully work out any kinks, then post a tuned
proposal in an appropriate official group.
> As for wrestling, it now does 2-9(or 10) base damage, Stratics is hideously
> out of date in alot of areas...
> It's almost a competant combat skill now, but bare hand speed(even at 100 dex)
> is still rather pathetic.
Geez, when I wrote the first proposal, Statics was saying base
wrestling damage was 1 to 8 when it was really about 1 to 4. Maybe
they like being one step out of phase. :)
I'll adjust my proposal so as to end up with about the same amount of
base damage. I covered the speed issue already (45+-). By requiring
high levels of all 4 WAFT skills, I think the proposal avoids the
possibility of über-mages, able to fight exceptionally well with magic
and fists simultaneously. My working assumption is that UO avoids it
by keeping wrestling as a nerfed level, really only of defensive
value. Thus normal wrestling speed would remain as is, only becoming
quick at 60 WAFT.
Perhaps it would even have to phase up, only reaching max potential
speed at 90 WAFT. A mage is likely to already have GM wrestling and a
good deal of battle focus. Only tactics and anatomy detract from a
normal mage template. At 60 WAFT, they would have to allocate 120
points for the faster wrestling, while at 90, it would cost them 180
skill points. 120 might be enough -- not sure. What do you-all
think?
Concerning special Monk equipment such as gloves, clothing, etc. -- I
don't oppose it. For simplicity in initial implementation, though,
non-essentials were omitted. I do feel that most of a monk's
abilities should come from within. Monkhood doesn't mean much if one
with low dedication could simply put on Gnarly Scaled Boots of Dragon
Kicking and be able to defeat an ancient wyrm.
My proposal opened the door to later enhancements involving the
Virtues. Initially, any shrine would act the same in dedicating
(consecrating?) a power crystal. A later publish could refine this,
with a Monk of Justice being somewhat different than a Monk of
Humility or Chaos. The difference might be something simple, such as
slowing down the decay rate of title acquired through the Virtue
System. I don't really know what would work well, but if one is to be
a Monk, some sort of formal life-focus should be involved.
The same goes for Paladins. In fact, the Monk template is
intentionally Paladin-friendly. It would force a special kind of
Paladinhood -- for example, one could not wear plate mail within the
strength restraints of Monkhood.
-- Rich
Cyrus
>think?
120 sounds steep enough, though 180 WOULD limit a formerly pure mage from going
Bruce Lee on people...
*chuckles*
>Initially, any shrine would act the same in dedicating
>(consecrating?) a power crystal. A later publish could refine this,
>with a Monk of Justice being somewhat different than a Monk of
>Humility or Chaos.
Something like stat enhancements, differing for each Virtue(in Ultima 6, you
would gain different stats as you leveled up, depending on what shrine you
meditated at), or like you suggested, slowed Virtue decay rates, would make
sense.
I wouldn't have the difference between Virtue monks be so extreme that certain
monks were blenderizers, while others were sheep bashers...
And i'd personally prefer to see some sort of totem, rather than a Power
Crystal, perhaps tinkered(we tinkers need to make something useful for a
change, shovels/lockpicks aren't enough and golems are nerfed!), an Ankh
Necklace would make for a great item...(and one that would likely become
fashion forward pretty quickly)
But maybe have the fashioning of said necklace <require> a Power Crystal for
the gem facet, pre-dedicated to a shrine(with restricted usefulness to the
person who dedicated the gem, we've already seen they can limit item effect to
the person, i.e., personal bless deeds, so the monk in need of the totem would
have to actually acquire the gem, visit a shrine & dedicate it), and then
cobbled together by a tinker of at least Master level.
Once your necklace has been made, it would work it's mojo until you run out of
tithe-chi, then need to be re-energized. After a set amount of
recharges(perhaps based on the virtue, which could be increased as you gain
levels in said virtue...Knights would have 2x the recharge life of a mere
Seeker), the necklace would wear out, and need to be replaced, thus requiring
the monk to show some level of dedication to continue to acquire the items
needed to keep himself in peak form.
>for example, one could not wear plate mail within the
>strength restraints of Monkhood.
Would probably require some special coding to restrict wearables on the Monk
class, since Gold & Dull Copper lowers Strength requirements on items, Dull
brings full Plate into the 80 str req. range, Gold into the low 60's.)
Or perhaps just make Chi abilities or Chi focusing MUCH less effective in
Platemail, and even less effective in any metal armor, thus requiring either
specialized clothing, or leather-wear(Spined covers Physical pretty well,
though still leaves the monk at a def. loss, like most other online games.)
Give monks attack buffing abilities like other MMORPGs, and Defence
boosters(like the monks of the Final Fantasy Snes Games), so they could handle
themselves even with reduced AR values.
~Wandering Paladin~
`Cyrus of Sosaria`
*But we definately need more weapons in the game, and the monk would lend
itself well to hybrid crafting(smith/tailors for spiked gloves) or for tailors
to finally break into the arms market with padded gloves, boots, etc. But
"Slayer Gloves" wouldn't really make sense, since it detracts from the
"Strength from Within" concept. A true monk/martial artist wouldn't need such
items to increase his/her combat effectiveness...*
Rock
> 120 sounds steep enough, though 180 WOULD limit a formerly pure mage from going
> Bruce Lee on people...
>
> *chuckles*
:) That's what I'm afraid of. As I think about it, I'm not so sure
about even 180 any more. Imagine a Monkage with GM Wrestling,
Anatomy, Focus, Tactics, Magery, EvalInt, and Meditation. He would
only be missing ResistMagic from what I uncerstand was the classic
Pure Mage template. ResistMagic seems to have been downgraded to the
status of Inscription -- a definite nice to have, but not a must have.
If I'm not wrong about resist (and as a re-newbie, I might be), this
template would be Dr. (Bruce Lee) Strange on steroids.
Thus a change is probably in order. Chi needs to become a more
central part of Monkhood. While the sanctified ankh is activated (in
battle or out), no mana will be available, only chi. Magery and
Necromancy will still require mana. However, both Chivalry and
special weapon moves will work equally well with mana or chi.
Plus there should be some sort of time delay between
activation/de-activation of the ankh and when the other soul force is
available. Dropping the value to 0 upon switch would do it. The
recharge rate for either would be the same. This seems natural -- you
want chi, all your pre-existing mana vanishes. You want mana, all
your pre-existing chi vanishes. WAFT-dependent abilities would not be
available until chi had built up to 60. Once it gets there, chi could
be used at will without worrying about dropping below 60. A player
with neither magery nor necromancy could always keep the ankh active
-- it only wears down during battle.
> I wouldn't have the difference between Virtue monks be so extreme that certain
> monks were blenderizers, while others were sheep bashers...
Agreed, with one exception. At some point "dark" (evil) monkhood
should be supported. And *no*, this should not be tied to the Chaos
Shrine. I'm probably preaching to the choir when I say chaos is
neither evil nor good. Any virtue practiced in isolation from the
others becomes tainted and eventually corrupt.
> And i'd personally prefer to see some sort of totem, rather than a Power
> Crystal, perhaps tinkered(we tinkers need to make something useful for a
> change ...
Point accepted. It would cause a minor increase in programming
difficulty -- the tinker's gump would need to support the new item,
and ankh graphics would probably need to be implemented. Damnit, this
is Ultima! There should already be ankhs. (heating stands 0, ankhs
1)
> But maybe have the fashioning of said necklace <require> a Power Crystal for
> the gem facet, pre-dedicated to a shrine(with restricted usefulness to the
> person who dedicated the gem, we've already seen they can limit item effect to
> the person, i.e., personal bless deeds, so the monk in need of the totem would
> have to actually acquire the gem, visit a shrine & dedicate it), and then
> cobbled together by a tinker of at least Master level.
Somewhat fancier than I envisioned, but I like it. Implementation
would require some sort of recurring bootstrap. If you can't be a
monk without your own crystal, and you can't get your crystal until
you have the skills of a monk, there is a problem. One simple
possibility is to allow the monk to use any sanctified ankh. However,
if he did not acquire and and have the crystal sanctified himself, his
WAFT level could not exceed 80. This number is an approximation. The
actual level would be whatever a practical value is neeeded to take
down an iron golem. Of course, any skill could be used to destroy the
golem, it would not have to be hands&feet.
> Once your necklace has been made, it would work it's mojo until you run out of
> tithe-chi, then need to be re-energized.
"tithe-chi" -- LOL!! I *knew* there was a reason to post here first.
:)
> >for example, one could not wear plate mail within the
> >strength restraints of Monkhood.
>
> Would probably require some special coding to restrict wearables on the Monk
> class, since Gold & Dull Copper lowers Strength requirements on items, Dull
> brings full Plate into the 80 str req. range, Gold into the low 60's.)
I didn't even know that.
> Or perhaps just make Chi abilities or Chi focusing MUCH less effective in
> Platemail, and even less effective in any metal armor, thus requiring either
> specialized clothing, or leather-wear(Spined covers Physical pretty well,
> though still leaves the monk at a def. loss, like most other online games.)
This idea seems too similar to the mana/meditation paradigm for my
taste. I would prefer something different, perhaps an encumbrance
penalty. The proposal already offers one when using hands/feet/shield
-- a -7 penalty to speed. Note game mechanics already impose some
penalty. His ideal dexterity (peak stamina) is 75, and the max is 90.
Thus there is less stamina than a pure warrier would have. Heavy
armor reduces this further. So I don't think a heavy penalty is in
order; maybe one ranging from -5 to +3 speed. Full plate armor,
regardless of composition, would slow wrestling speed by 5. Naked,
jester suits, etc., could raise speed by 3.
Hmmm, perhaps the -2 chi drain (equalized by 40 battle focus) should
be put to good use. How about having it return a +1 stamina gain, as
if the Monk had 10 extra points of focus. Might as well go all the
way -- the other point would converted to a +1 heal gain; the
character would heal an extra point every 10 seconds. If he's not
tired or damaged, the chi drain would still occur.
> Give monks attack buffing abilities like other MMORPGs, and Defence
> boosters(like the monks of the Final Fantasy Snes Games), so they could handle
> themselves even with reduced AR values.
We're creeping up on it. :) In addition to the new ideas here, the
first post offered up to a +20 bonus to parry, depending on WAFT
score. It also offered up to a 5% across-the-board base resistance
level, depending on balance bonus. Do you think these values will be
insufficient? If so, they aren't sacred and can be tuned to whatever
results in a fun, balanced, playable character.
> *But we definately need more weapons in the game, and the monk would lend
> itself well to hybrid crafting(smith/tailors for spiked gloves) or for tailors
> to finally break into the arms market with padded gloves, boots, etc. But
> "Slayer Gloves" wouldn't really make sense, since it detracts from the
> "Strength from Within" concept. A true monk/martial artist wouldn't need such
> items to increase his/her combat effectiveness...*
No problem. I don't see new items (except the sanctified ankh
infrastructure) for the initial publish, though. Hands&Feet battle
damage is easily tuneable. The first publish could make use of the
items already available -- leather & studded leather gloves, shoe/boot
type, etc. Each could be associated with some damage bonus. No
damage bonus for metal gloves, though; if anything they would have a
damage penalty. He might hit harder, but the blow would be slower and
less precise.
-- Rich
john.sampson
>
> We're more a collection of fans that gather to gripe and complain about
the
> changing game collectively, rather than grabbing the closest Compound Bow,
> hopping on a bank's roof and sniping Dev Team members!
Now that sounds like my sprt of past time!
I baggsy the spot outside Moonglow gates - so I can snipe at the guards too
:D
plaguebeast
"john.sampson" <john.s...@0800dial.com> wrote in message
news:3e857acc$1...@news1.vip.uk.com...
There is a sign there that says that it is illegal to shoot the guards. Is
it enforced ?
Cyrus
>about even 180 any more. Imagine a Monkage with GM Wrestling,
>Anatomy, Focus, Tactics, Magery, EvalInt, and Meditation.
Aye, i factored that into my thinking yesterday...had a power outage at home,
so had little else but thinking to do. hehe
I'd say either add in a new skill(say Martial Arts for now) on top of the 4
pre-reqs, and make it so you can only start to gain in said skill once you've
attained the minimum WAFT level(60/80, either is pretty high up and requires a
certain amount of dedication, especially as skill gains are more sporadic, and
aligned to doing more and more difficult things to continue to gain now.), like
Remove Trap is only learnable after a set skill in Detect Hidden.
>If I'm not wrong about resist (and as a re-newbie, I might be),
Nah, you're dead on. Resist now functions to decrease the duration of
non-damaging spells, such as curse, feeblemind, clumsy & paralyze.
>Agreed, with one exception. At some point "dark" (evil) monkhood
>should be supported. And *no*, this should not be tied to the Chaos
>Shrine. I'm probably preaching to the choir when I say chaos is
>neither evil nor good.
Aye, good point. (and on your next line, but i didn't want to quote a huge
block) Any virtue can either be "good" or "evil", depending on who uses it, and
what they use it for...
>Damnit, this
>is Ultima! There should already be ankhs. (heating stands 0, ankhs
>1)
Damn straight!
The first time i noticed necklaces in UO, i couldn't help but wonder why the
heck there weren't Ankh necklaces...i mean, they never really served a purpose
too much beyond decoration in the single player games(save for the gargoyle's
necklace once you reach their city after the EVIL journey through Hythloth in
U6, it freed you from attacks by the gargoyles while you wore it), but in my
own gameplay, i found it essential to wear my ankh necklace with pride...i was
the Avatar, darn it!
>Somewhat fancier than I envisioned, but I like it. Implementation
>would require some sort of recurring bootstrap.
Thank you. I am nothing if not obsessive. *chuckles*
>Dull
>> brings full Plate into the 80 str req. range, Gold into the low 60's.)
>
>I didn't even know that.
>
Yep, brand new with AOS, also works to lower the reqs. on weapons. Handy for
giving a new player with low str a good weapon, and VERY handy against monsters
that like to weaken you.
>This idea seems too similar to the mana/meditation paradigm for my
>taste. I would prefer something different, perhaps an encumbrance
>penalty.
Agreed. In the long run, it makes a tad more sense. Monks should really wear
loose garments, and clunky metal would slow them down(much like the dex penalty
we had prior to AoS, now there's no holding back a tank, and since armor was
largely made ineffective as far as physical resistance goes, it's made
hybridized armor sets, like archer suits, less common already), or perhaps have
something as simple as the ehavier your armor, the more stamina is consumed
with during the course of martial battle.
>Naked,
>jester suits, etc., could raise speed by 3.
hehe...Jester Monks...i can already see that...
(though if i made a monk, they'd have to wear a bandana, some sort of loose
fitting shirt, preferably a Gi, long pants, and since i personally hate sandals
in UO & IRL, i'd go for simple shoes...)
>It also offered up to a 5% across-the-board base resistance
>level, depending on balance bonus. Do you think these values will be
>insufficient?
Sounds good here, and somewhat like i personally thought they SHOULD HAVE
altered Magic Resist...as you gain skill in it, it would add to you base
elemental resistances...
But OSI decided to go their own, bizarre route...
>No problem. I don't see new items (except the sanctified ankh
>infrastructure) for the initial publish, though.
Aye, wouldn't really need new art right off the bat, heck, we didn't get
properly drawn/new art for the dragon scale armor until AoS, before is was
rehashed Ultima 9 Wyrm Guard armor in 3D, and it remains an oddly matched
plate/ringmail set in 2D..
Until new, preferably GOOD looking art could be made, simple renamed items
would suffice, or damage bonuses/penalties depending on the gloves you wear
while fighting.
Rock
> I'd say either add in a new skill(say Martial Arts for now) on top of the
> 4 pre-reqs, and make it so you can only start to gain in said skill once
> you've attained the minimum WAFT level(60/80, either is pretty high up
My y2000 proposal did have an actual "Martial Arts" skill. At the
time, it seemed the natural way to implement a new character class.
When I learned about the new Battle Focus skill a few weeks ago, I
thought, "Hey, that's neat. It's a natural for a monk." I really
don't think a new skill is required now. A monk *is* someone with
high Wrestling, Anatomy, Focus, and Tactics (and balance).
Requiring an additional skill is just too much, IMO. Within the 700
skill-point cap, the character prototypes work just fine without it.
Examples (ignoring possibility of GM+ skill levels):
"can't touch this"
GM Wrestle, Anatomy, Focus, Tactics (WAFT)
GM Chivalry, Resist, Parry
"can't touch this" -- magic
GM WAFT
GM Healing, Chivalry, Resist
"can't touch this" -- physical
GM WAFT
GM Healing, Chivalry, Parry
"day job"
GM WAFT
GM Bowyer
50 Bowmanship, Parry, Chivalry, Lumberjack
You didn't specifically state that you disliked my suggestion of a
switch between mana and chi. Your counter-proposal of a new martial
arts skill indicates you weren't thrilled with the idea. Why do you
prefer a new skill over the switch?
Thinking about character prototypes, I would like to change one of my
previous concepts. Earlier, I said the special moves for wrestling
would stay as they are (disarm and paralyzing blow), with two
exceptions. Disarm would not require Arms Lore (70 WAFT would be
sufficient), and Paralyzing Blow would become active at 80 WAFT.
The change is this -- "martial arts" wrestling would have two primary
special moves. If the monk had 80 points in Arms Lore, the Disarm
special move would be active at 70 Wrestling skill (as is the case
right now). Alternatively, if he had 80 Stealth -- and the
pre-requisite 80 Hiding -- his primary special move while fighting
with Hand&Feet would be Shadow Strike.
This causes a problem with existing game mechanics. Nothing (except
common sense) prevents a character from having 70 WAFT and 80 each in
Arms Lore, Hiding, and Stealth. The requirements for both primary
special moves would be met. Solutions include:
1) Randomly choose one of the two primary special moves.
2) Have one move be "more primary" than the other
(primary move would always be Shadow Strike).
3) What the heck -- both Disarm and Shadow Strike at the same time
(Chi (listed as mana) cost would be 2/3 the cost of both --
(25 + 20) * 2/3 = 30).
4) Allow Shadow Strike as a primary move for all 5 "martial arts"
weapons. In every case, 80 Stealth and Hiding would be
a prerequisite. A switch in the Combat Book would say to use
Shadow Strike or the normal primary move.
For reference, the weapons and special moves (primary first) are:
1) Hands&Feet -- Disarm (if 80 Arms Lore)
-- Paralyzing Blow (if 80 Anatomy)
2) Quarterstaff -- Double Strike -- Concussion Blow
3) Katana -- Double Strike -- Armor Ignore
4) Composite Bow -- Armor Ignore -- Moving Shot
5) War Fork -- Bleeding Attack -- Disarm
(Note: I intentionally avoided weapons that offer poison attacks.
Perhaps
Reminder -- any weapon can be used. But the Monk receives a WAFT/2
bonus in the native weapon skill for items 2-5. So with GM WAFT, only
50 bowmanship is necessary to have GM skill with the composite bow.
The bonus will not bring skill level above its skill cap. (This is
different than the Parry bonus (up to 20 points), which could bring
the Parry skill above its skill cap.)
Now I can add another martial arts prototype:
"avenging ninja"
GM WAFT
90 Hide, Stealth
70 Meditate
50 Chivalry
Note that weapons offering poison attacks were intentionally excluded.
A later publish could offer such weapons in support of evil monkhood.
(Sais and throwing stars are likely candidates. Each would have
Infections Strike as one of its special moves.)
> >If I'm not wrong about resist (and as a re-newbie, I might be),
>
> Nah, you're dead on. Resist now functions to decrease the duration of
> non-damaging spells, such as curse, feeblemind, clumsy & paralyze.
If anyone wants to vent&flame, here's your chance. I *like* the
revision to Magic Resistance. It accomplishes two things
simultaneously. First, it directly provides protection against the
new Necromancy curses, in addition to the Magery curses.
Second, and most importantly, it brings Resist down to the level of a
normal skill. Before, any character who planned to be a warrier
(mage, fighter, or combo), *needed* significant Resist skill. He
didn't have a 700-point skill cap -- in practice it was more like 635.
(At about 65 points Resist, it used to start providing noticeable
protection against poison. I considered this the miniumum level for
any of my characters.)
Resist is still useful. The key difference is there is no longer an
absolutely vital skill. We actually have 700 points to work with.
Those of you who spent hours flame-striking yourselves to achieve GM
MagicResist, I admire your perseverence and understand why you might
feel betrayed now. Yes, your skill got "nerfed". IMO, for the
betterment of all.
Back to topic -- if a Monk gets cursed, bringing his Intelligence,
Strength, and/or Dexterity down, his Balance Bonus would not be
affected. Now would he suddenly lose his martial arts abilities
because his minimum stat level dropped below 60 points. Curses are
short term hindrances which do not detract from his core self. He is
not immune to curses, but he is not fundamentally altered by them
either.
The same logic applies to the various blessings. Having your Strength
increased temporarily has nothing to do with Monkness. It just helps
you move that stupid ore for a little bit of time.
> >This idea seems too similar to the mana/meditation paradigm for my
> >taste. I would prefer something different, perhaps an encumbrance
> >penalty.
>
> Agreed. In the long run, it makes a tad more sense. Monks should really
> wear loose garments, and clunky metal would slow them down (much like the
> dex penalty we had prior to AoS, now there's no holding back a tank, and
> since armor was largely made ineffective as far as physical resistance
> goes, it's made hybridized armor sets, like archer suits, less common
> already), or perhaps have something as simple as the behavier your armor,
> the more stamina is consumed with during the course of martial battle.
Something else I didn't know. This change I don't like -- the Dex
penalty made perfect sense. If a swordsman were wearing plate mail
armor, he's going to get tired quicker in battle. Looks like I should
allow the speed penalty to slow the Monk down by more than 5. My
intent had been to allow part of the penalty be the lowered over-all
stamina caused by heavy armor.
With that gone, restoring it only for the Monk would be unfair and
interfere with game-balance tweaks the design team makes in the
future. Thus I think controlling the penalty exclusively with speed
delta's is better. You suggest the possibility of having a higher
stamina drain, but why would a monk wearing chain armor have his
stamina go down quicker than a swordsman?
Hmmm, lowering speed of Hands&Feet only affects the Monk offensively.
It doesn't hinder his defensive abilities. Heavy armor would probably
affect both. What do you think about part of the penalty being
applied directly to his Wrestling skill (and hence, WAFT level)? How
about this -- allow speed penalty\bonus to range from -5 in full plate
armor (regardless of composition) to +3 when when wearing nothing,
street clothes, jester suits, etc. Any metal armor would also reduce
Wrestling skill by up to 5 points, equal to the reduction in speed.
I am speaking of Hands&Feet (wrestling) only. If fighting with some
other weapon ("martial arts" or not), he would experience no extra
penalties. Wielding a katana or quarterstaff, he is a swordsman or
armsman. With the martial arts weapons, he would maintain his up to
20-point parry bonus and up to 5% resistance bonuses. His weapon
skill would not be enhanced by the Monk's balance bonus, however.
(Justification: Pure swordsman would likely have 100 points in
strength and/or dexterity. The monk is limited to 90 points in any
stat, with an increasing balance bonus as his stats approach
75/75/75.)
> hehe...Jester Monks...i can already see that...
> (though if i made a monk, they'd have to wear a bandana, some sort of loose
> fitting shirt, preferably a Gi, long pants, and since i personally hate
> sandals in UO & IRL, i'd go for simple shoes...)
I hate sandals too! It's like walking in dirt without the advantage
of being barefoot.
> Sounds good here, and somewhat like i personally thought they SHOULD HAVE
> altered Magic Resist...as you gain skill in it, it would add to you base
> elemental resistances...
>
> But OSI decided to go their own, bizarre route...
I would have expected MagicResist to be altered the way you suggest.
As stated above, though, I like this particular "bizarre" choice. An
actual 700 points to work with. Wow!
When the design team abandons "cause and affect" logic for "lets not
make the newbie have to think and plan", they go wrong, IMO. As a
programmer myself, I can understand some of the difficulties they
have, and the desire for simplification. (6 years of complex,
interrelated, legacy code -- <shiver>). I hope they find the "golden
path" of achieving both maintainable code and a cause & effect
universe.
-- Rich
Rock
Ack! I was editing my post in a text editor and made a last minute
change. The paragraph which mentions poison should have been:
- - - - - - - - - -
Note that weapons offering poison attacks were intentionally excluded.
A later publish could offer such weapons in support of evil monkhood.
(Sais and throwing stars are likely candidates. Each would have
Infections Strike as one of its special moves.)
- - - - - - - - - -
-- Rich
Cyrus
>time, it seemed the natural way to implement a new character class.
I don't see the addition of a new skill as required, but i feel it would do a
little more to limit the monkage factor...
With GM in the WAFT skills, plus GM Martial Arts, that's only 200 free points,
which a smart person would likely spend on parry(to cancel out melee damage)
and resist(to limit the hindering effects of magic)...or even parry/archery,
resist/macing, whatever two skills they choose to fill in the gap.
But Magery really requires the use of Eval Int, Inscription, and Meditate to be
at it's most useful...(though you can leave off inscription easily enough with
the changes to duration of buff spells, and then you would be left with a WAFT
monk with plenty of room for the mage skills...)
>You didn't specifically state that you disliked my suggestion of a
>switch between mana and chi. Your counter-proposal of a new martial
>arts skill indicates you weren't thrilled with the idea. Why do you
>prefer a new skill over the switch?
I didn't really have any opinion on it, so i left it out. I guess i'd go more
with the tithing aspect like Chivalry, where you sacrifice whatever you have to
for each virtue dedication, then you're left with x amount of chi to spend
using your abilities, and keep in the in-combat slow drain, sounds nifty.
But having Chi replace Int/Mana would likely require changes to the stat gump,
and that darn thing is large enough as it is now...
>The change is this -- "martial arts" wrestling would have two primary
>special moves.
That might be a little much for the OSI guys to code, considering their current
coding baffles...though having differing weapons for the monk class come under
differing effectiveness based on your skill would be cool...say you've got a
pair of battle gloves, with Para-Blow & Concussion. You then swap over to
Katars, with Armor Ignore & Shadow Strike, but you need the particular skills
to use the weapon properly, or to it's full effect, anyway.
>If anyone wants to vent&flame, here's your chance. I *like* the
>revision to Magic Resistance.
I like the change as it stands, but some sort of link to the previous
usefulness would've been nice...as it stands, i've nearly dropped my resist
entirely to make room for Chivalry & Focus on my primary warrior...
But then, i'm solid PvM, and have never gone far past a Demon in terms of
toughness, mostly because the oppurtunity hasn't yet presented itself, and i'm
a soloist 90% of the time i play.
It is nice to have a little more freedom with my skills, now...i always
detested having to partake in the magical side of things to be an effective
warrior, having Chivalry still leans in there, but at least i'm a pure warrior
otherwise.
>With that gone, restoring it only for the Monk would be unfair and
>interfere with game-balance tweaks the design team makes in the
>future.
Aye, point taken. If they were to decrease the monk's ability to wear armor due
to this sort of effect, it would have to go across the board to all melee
classes.(i personally like the removal of dex loss, it's allowed a certain
degree of freedom when picking out your armor, and i never liked having to
strap on less protective equipment just to limit dex loss.
If i'm going into battle as a knight, i like to be able to wear full
platemail(i usually did, anyway), or my Dragon armor, and i've had fun creating
resist armor since AoS hit...
(though how liches STILL manage to smack me for 25 damage through
66/53/54/51/50, only god knows...)
>I hate sandals too! It's like walking in dirt without the advantage
>of being barefoot.
>
hehe, i just don't like the look, i detest them in real life, and honestly
can't understand why neon sandals are so popular in game...these people look
like idiots in their neon outfits...but it IS their choice, and ultimately,
their problem...
Now if i could just find a good eye doctor to take care of the retinal strain
after seeing a person with bright orange neon hair, atop a fire steed, wearing
blaze clothing, with blaze sandals, and a blaze weapon...
>I hope they find the "golden
>path" of achieving both maintainable code and a cause & effect
>universe.
It would be nice if the next change to, say, Fishing didn't nerf a half dozen
other skills, break skill gain across the board, make people able to smelt meat
from animals into ingots, and convert chickens to a balron level difficulty
monster.(little reference to imps, damn hag's quest is horrible, atm)
Sorry, lost the point on a few of my points and ranted....
~Wandering Paladin~
`Cyrus of Sosaria`
*All in all, i think you have the makings of a solid, and potentially fun class
to play, just needs a little tweaking, and the pooling/elimination of all the
various suggestions to make one concrete idea to suggest to someone on the OSI
staff...it would be nice to see a few more classes added to the game, rather
than simple templates...a true Ranger, with archery & tracking is one of my own
goals for the future...*
*And speaking of the hag's quest, i'll go OT here and say that i dislike that
the reward has been altered. Previously, it handed out a powerful fencing
weapon each time..i still have a power kryss thanks to the ol' hag...it's good
that other weapon skills are being rewarded for completing Grizelda's tasks,
but the weapons now being given out are pathetically weak! For the effort of
killing an imp atm, and all that running around, i expected better than a
Repeating Xbow of sub-Ruin with 5% Fire resist....*
Rock
> I didn't really have any opinion on it, so i left it out. I guess i'd go more
> with the tithing aspect like Chivalry, where you sacrifice whatever you have to
> for each virtue dedication, then you're left with x amount of chi to spend
> using your abilities, and keep in the in-combat slow drain, sounds nifty.
> But having Chi replace Int/Mana would likely require changes to the stat gump,
> and that darn thing is large enough as it is now...
Hmm, I still haven't made myself clear. The gump would not have to
change, except any text reference to "mana" would have to be able to
say "chi" instead. Mana and chi are for many purposes the same thing
and derive from "soul energy". Your character could have one or the
other at any point in time, but never both. Mana could be used for
everything it currently is.
However, once a player activates his sanctified ankh, mana becomes
unavailable. Chi builds up at the same rate and by the same factors
as would mana. Chi could not be used for magery or necromanancy, only
for acts of chivalry and weapon special moves. The other difference
is that during battle (or any regeneration period of health and/or
stamina), there would be a 2-point/10-second loss of chi. Since a
monk requires a minimum of 60 Battle Focus, this loss would be
countered by at least a 3-point/10-second gain in chi.
Once a player inactivates or removes his sanctified ankh, chi becomes
unavailable. In either case, the pre-existing level would drop to 0
and have to build up the other energy level at its normal rate. At 60
chi, the WAFT and Balance abilities of the character become available,
and remain available (even when chi drops below 60) until the ankh is
removed. (I just decided there does not need to be an "activation",
or more accurately, putting on the ankh *is* its activation.)
A Monkage could still exist. Hopefully I have explained it well
enough that you understand the character would not be overpowered. He
could not simultaneously be a monk and a mage, and there would be a
time delay when switching from one to the other.
> >The change is this -- "martial arts" wrestling would have two primary
> >special moves.
>
> That might be a little much for the OSI guys to code, considering their current
> coding baffles...though having differing weapons for the monk class come under
> differing effectiveness based on your skill would be cool...say you've got a
> pair of battle gloves, with Para-Blow & Concussion. You then swap over to
> Katars, with Armor Ignore & Shadow Strike, but you need the particular skills
> to use the weapon properly, or to it's full effect, anyway.
Ok, I could deal with that. Special gloves would enable a different
set of primary/secondary abilities. You are probably correct that it
would be easier to code-in a few new weapons rather than redo the
whole infrastructure of special moves.
> It is nice to have a little more freedom with my skills, now...i always
> detested having to partake in the magical side of things to be an effective
> warrior, having Chivalry still leans in there, but at least i'm a pure warrior
> otherwise.
The development team understood this desire, IMO. Look at their
terminology -- "chivalry abilities" versus "necromancy spells". Look
at the blessed books -- the chivalry and special-move books come
prepopulated with their full set of enhancements, while the magery and
necromancy books must be filled one spell at a time. We aren't
supposed to treat the Paladin's abilities as magic; they are
attributes of a Holy Warrier.
Healing was the pre-cursor to this concept -- a "bandaid" which can
treat the most grievous of wounds and even death itself... C'mon,
that's magic, right? Wrong. The physics of Ultima are not those of
our Universe. Yes there is magic, but there are also different rules
for the non-magical.
I.e., Paladin Cyrus, you are a pure warrior. <bows>
> Now if i could just find a good eye doctor to take care of the retinal strain
> after seeing a person with bright orange neon hair, atop a fire steed, wearing
> blaze clothing, with blaze sandals, and a blaze weapon...
Someday a craftsman with 80 skill in both tinkering and anatomy might
be able to build you a pair of sunglasses. :)
> *All in all, i think you have the makings of a solid, and potentially fun class
> to play, just needs a little tweaking, and the pooling/elimination of all the
> various suggestions to make one concrete idea to suggest to someone on the OSI
> staff.
Thank you. In the next few days I'll post a re-organized proposal to
an official board. I realize even if they like it, there are fires
which need to be extinguished before they start adding new stuff.
> ...it would be nice to see a few more classes added to the game, rather
> than simple templates...a true Ranger, with archery & tracking is one of my own
> goals for the future...*
That would be cool.
-- Rich
Rock
> 4) Allow Shadow Strike as a primary move for all 5 "martial arts"
> weapons. In every case, 80 Stealth and Hiding would be
> a prerequisite. A switch in the Combat Book would say to use
> Shadow Strike or the normal primary move.
> 4) Composite Bow -- Armor Ignore -- Moving Shot
> Now I can add another martial arts prototype:
>
> "avenging ninja"
> GM WAFT
> 90 Hide, Stealth
> 70 Meditate
> 50 Chivalry
In my previous post I abandoned the idea of granting Shadow Strike as
a possibility for the 5 "martial arts" weapons. Good thing, too.
Another prototype occurred to me:
"almost every pk in 20 planes of existence"
GM WAFT
90 Hide, Stealth
50 bowmanship
40 meditate
30 chivalry
Shadow Strike as a special move on any ranged weapon is asking for
trouble. OSI wisely chose not to offer this possibility, and I
shouldn't have suggested it either.
> ... Mana and chi are for many purposes the same thing
> and derive from "soul energy". Your character could have one or the
> other at any point in time, but never both. Mana could be used for
> everything it currently is.
>
> However, once a player activates his sanctified ankh, mana becomes
> unavailable. Chi builds up at the same rate and by the same factors
> as would mana. Chi could not be used for magery or necromanancy, only
> for acts of chivalry and weapon special moves. ...
A better way to explain it is to say mana and chi *are* the same
thing. They are like "heads" and "tails" of the same coin. Some
abilities are not affected by "which side is up" (chivalry and special
moves) and others are (magery and necromancy).
-- Rich
--- Wizardry 8 Import Files
---- http://home.cfl.rr.com/rickyworld/
Cyrus
>change, except any text reference to "mana" would have to be able to
>say "chi" instead.
Hmm...i don't really see a point to anything as complex as that...with every
magical school currently in the game, we derive our power from mana, from the
energy of the intellect....why one class should have it altered in such a
significant manner i can honestly say doesn't make alot of sense...
Though perhaps the monk should have some cost in mana as well as stamina, thus
putting more of an influence on the need for the focus skill to keep down the
drain of prolonged combat...
>Mana and chi are for many purposes the same thing
>and derive from "soul energy".
To eleborate, if mana & chi are the same, what's the point of the conversion?
Sounds like overcomplicating things...
>Chi could not be used for magery or necromanancy, only
>for acts of chivalry and weapon special moves.
Tying a new "class" into the ability scheme of another seems a bit like a step
backwards than forward. Chivalry works just fine, we don't need a chi
conversion ankh or what have you added into the mix.
>Healing was the pre-cursor to this concept -- a "bandaid" which can
>treat the most grievous of wounds and even death itself... C'mon,
>that's magic, right? Wrong.
Well, maybe a little tribal throwback to mysticism...ressurecting someone with
a strip of cloth i gather by threading together sheep's wool still seems a
little magical to me.
*chuckles*
>Yes there is magic, but there are also different rules
>for the non-magical.
>
>I.e., Paladin Cyrus, you are a pure warrior. <bows>
I try to be...but playing the role of the healer suits me just as well.
The paladin has been a godsend for my playstyle...i can help people, increase
my own combat abilities, and it supports my healing ability perfectly.
Ressurect, close wounds, slap a bandage, 2 seconds later, a person is fully
healed. :}
And being able to rapidly dispatch an enemy, or a group that's tailing a
wounded person makes for a lasting impression on the person you save, and i've
found they often return to me when they're in trouble, and i'm happy to lend a
hand as often as possible.
>a true Ranger, with archery & tracking is one of my own
>> goals for the future...*
>
>That would be cool.
>
Began work on my Ranger yesterday...still have some bugs to sort out skill
wise, but atm, it seems to work out fine, though i didn't manage to squeeze
tracking in after all...oh well, hasn't really been a necessary skill since
spawns were ramped up around the release of UO:R...and stopping a hunt to stand
still and scan about for critters seems rather silly in the grand scheme of
things.
I do agree with the limit to the monkage, but i don't see the mana/chi swap as
the way to go about it. the addition of either a new skill, or reliance upon
Stamina & Mana would be more effective in limiting things, since a true mage
will go for as much mana as he/she can get, with reduced stamina...so a mage
wouldn't be the best monk, and a monk wouldn't make the greatest mage.
*shrugs*
~Wandering Paladin~
`Cyrus of Sosaria`
*If you'll excuse me, i have a GGS healing point to collect. *chuckles**
Rock
> ...
> Tying a new "class" into the ability scheme of another seems a bit like a step
> backwards than forward. Chivalry works just fine, we don't need a chi
> conversion ankh or what have you added into the mix.
> I do agree with the limit to the monkage, but i don't see the mana/chi swap as
> the way to go about it. the addition of either a new skill, or reliance upon
> Stamina & Mana would be more effective in limiting things, since a true mage
> will go for as much mana as he/she can get, with reduced stamina...so a mage
> wouldn't be the best monk, and a monk wouldn't make the greatest mage.
Cyrus,
Either I have been unable to make my concept clear or we have a
difference of opinion. Actually the first possibility bothers me more
than the second, for if we disagree I know it is with the backdrop of
mutual respect.
I shall further consider your viewpoint, and the rewritten proposal at
Stratics will benefit greatly from your invaluable feedback. Thank
you.
-- Rich
Cyrus
>
>Either I have been unable to make my concept clear or we have a
>difference of opinion.
Likely the second. I believe i've grasped where you're going at...but do
correct me if i've mistaken anything.
With the usage of whatever conversion item the monk employs, mana is
essentially canceled out, and replaced by Chi, which i believe you later
suggested should replace mana on the status screen, if only in text
description.
Thus, a mage would have no mana to use, and instead have Chi, which they can
not use for spell casting, and it would require a transfer time in which they
changed the chi back to mana, and were essentially powerless until they
gathered enough mystic enery for whatever purpose they needed it for.
Again, i don't see a point. It's overly complicated, and doesn't make a whole
mess of sense in the long run, because it will limit the usefulness of the new
class.
A few examples of why?
1)The Necromancer, new class, and brimming with power, but no spells by which
to travel around. Thus, most necromancers, if not all, utilize magery as a side
skill, if only for recalling.
2)The Paladin, second new class, and while they have the travelling spell, they
lack any method of dealing out great sums of damage against some of the more
potent creatures out there, since they have only one DD spell(Holy Light), and
it's pretty darned useless...thus, a paladin that wished to fight the mightier
beings without the constant need for healing might become a split paladin/mage.
3)By the system meated out thus far, the monk is limited by the equipment they
utilize, due to possible speed factors, or decrease/increase in damage
output/accuracy based on what they've got equipped. Further hampering them with
a convoluted conversion system doesn't seem like a good way to make the
character accessible, and would limit those interested in playing as one.
Since bards and tamers still effectively rule the roost, making a new class
with such a severe handicap would seem to be unwise...people would stick with
the tried and true classes once the appeal of the latest "new thing" wore
off...(though i'm still waiting for tribal masks to go out of style)
>Actually the first possibility bothers me more
>than the second, for if we disagree I know it is with the backdrop of
>mutual respect.
*nods and smiles*
I do respect you, Rich, you've given me something new to obsess over, and
brought up alot of interesting ideas.
You clearly have put alot of thought into this class, and i hope it gets some
notice.
Though if brought to the game, i can instantly see the scaled resist base being
removed, as well as the parry bonus, and the low archery skill=GM skill
matter...these things would simply cause far too much of an outcry among
players, and i personally think would cause the monk to be WAY overpowered.
The simple fact is, you'd instantly have every player demanding the resist base
for their class, you'd have the experienced people that worked a skill like
archery to GM level complaining that this made their efforts seem meaningless,
and the parry bonus is just too much, especially considering at GM parry,
there's only a 30% defence chance, 15% with two handed weapons...for the monk
to go at it barehanded, or using skill weapons and attaining near GM level
blockage wouldn't, and doesn't sit well, regardless of how many seperate skills
were trained to obtain it. For the monk to have a base parry at such & such
WAFT, think of a monk with GM parry as well, they'd be a tank on the
battlefield, overpowering anyone in melee simply because they'd be next to
impossible to hit.
Anyway, you've got great ideas here, and even if some elements were stripped
away, it still sounds like an enjoyable class to play.
~Cyrus of Sosaria~
Rock
> Likely the second. I believe i've grasped where you're going at...but do
> correct me if i've mistaken anything.
Ok. I'll try a final time to illuminate my justifications for the
points we differ at. I was going to concentrate on the "official"
proposal, but your invitation gives me another shot. At Google
Groups, this thread is getting deeply indented. :)
> With the usage of whatever conversion item the monk employs, mana is
> essentially canceled out, and replaced by Chi, which i believe you later
> suggested should replace mana on the status screen, if only in text
> description.
>
> Thus, a mage would have no mana to use, and instead have Chi, which they can
> not use for spell casting, and it would require a transfer time in which they
> changed the chi back to mana, and were essentially powerless until they
> gathered enough mystic enery for whatever purpose they needed it for.
Correct, but, as I see it, the point of view is backwards in the 2nd
paragraph. A mage is unlikely to desire chi. As we discussed
earlier, if a mage were able to simultaneously use wrestling to
inflict significant damage while casting spells, he would become
overpowered. So, making use of your early suggestion of a tinkered
ankh with power crystal, my concept is to prevent a monk from casting
mage spells.
The in-game justification for the limitation is that a monk has
focused (polarized, transformed, whatever) his mana into chi, which is
no longer useful for magic. Chi is essential for monkhood, and
equivalent to mana in using the Paladin's abilities and warrier's
special moves.
> Again, i don't see a point. It's overly complicated, and doesn't make a whole
> mess of sense in the long run, because it will limit the usefulness of the new
> class.
Hopefully you see the point now. In my opinion it is simple, not
complicated.
> A few examples of why?
>
> 1)The Necromancer, new class, and brimming with power, but no spells by which
> to travel around. Thus, most necromancers, if not all, utilize magery as a side
> skill, if only for recalling.
Right, necromancers would make bad monks. They'd also make bad
paladins.
> 2)The Paladin, second new class, and while they have the travelling spell, they
> lack any method of dealing out great sums of damage against some of the more
> potent creatures out there, since they have only one DD spell(Holy Light), and
> it's pretty darned useless...thus, a paladin that wished to fight the mightier
> beings without the constant need for healing might become a split paladin/mage.
Agreed; a paladin could benefit greatly from magery. He could also
benefit greatly from monkhood. He just couldn't be great at both.
Nor could he be a great bard-mage, nor a great tamer-mage.
> 3)By the system meated out thus far, the monk is limited by the equipment they
> utilize, due to possible speed factors, or decrease/increase in damage
> output/accuracy based on what they've got equipped. Further hampering them with
> a convoluted conversion system doesn't seem like a good way to make the
> character accessible, and would limit those interested in playing as one.
My stance is that putting on a sanctified ankh, and probably
constantly wearing it until its charge ends, is not convoluted. Yes,
he is "hampered". I chose the subject text, "Citizen of Balance",
carefully. A monk is different than any other class. For one thing,
he can't use magic (as stated in an earlier post, I don't consider
acts of chivalry to be magic). Most classes will desire to maximize
at least one stat, but a monk cannot do so. Even if he manages to
raise his stat cap to the max 255, none of his individual stats can
exceed 90.
Obviously requiring such a balance must yield rewards, or else "people
would stick with the tried and true classes". What are the rewards?
1) wrestling becomes a useful offensive skill
2) the more balanced his stats, the greater his resistances,
up to 5% accross the board if he is exactly balanced
(75/75/75 normally, up to 85/85/85 at the maximum
stat cap).
3) the more balanced his stats, the greater damage he will
do while wrestling, up to 5 more HP per blow. This
is a monk's equivalent to "exceptional quality" on
weapons.
4) his dedication to the martial arts leads to increased
skill with a very limited number of normal weapons,
one from each weapon category. People expect a monk
to be good with a Bo! (well, quarterstaff) Note that
the increased level of skill plus natural skill could
never exceed the weapon's skill cap.
5) his training, focus, and chi allow him to avoid physical
damage more often than other warriers. This is
implemented with a bonus to Parry of up to 20 points.
The design necessity of such a thing is clear; he can
never have as many hit points as other classes.
In game, people expect a martial artist to move very
quickly and avoid blows better than other classes.
This bonus would be additive to the skill cap.
6) (new to proposal)
his chi allows him to conceal himself somewhat better
than other classes. He has up to a 20-point bonus to
Hiding. Practically, this will not generally aid him
as a warrier. But if he chooses to pursue stealth
and hence the ability to use the Shadow Strike move,
his entry cost is 160 skill points not 180. Again,
concealment is an ability many people associate with
martial artists. This bonus could not raise
skill cap.
> I do respect you, Rich, you've given me something new to obsess over, and
> brought up alot of interesting ideas. You clearly have put alot of thought
> into this class, and i hope it gets some notice.
Thank you. :)
> Though if brought to the game, i can instantly see the scaled resist base being
> removed, as well as the parry bonus, and the low archery skill=GM skill
> matter...these things would simply cause far too much of an outcry among
> players, and i personally think would cause the monk to be WAY overpowered.
I'm more optimistic. (Although I am realistic in the knowledge this
proposal will likely not be accepted. What the heck. They didn't
accept my reaperwood proposal either. :) I expect a lot more "don't
care" than opposition. Those that analyze the monk class would see
that it has both restrictions and advantages. If these are in
balance, I don't expect much whining (no more than usual with any
change, anyway). If the advantages do indeed make the class
overpowered, then the amounts of additional ability(ies) can be
reduced until the character class is "fair". (Now the question is
"fair" compared to a tamer or bard, or compared to an axeman. :)
-- Rich
--- Interactive Color Wheel
---- http://rocq.home.att.net/SIHwheel.html
Cyrus
>ankh with power crystal, my concept is to prevent a monk from casting
>mage spells.
>
I still say making the Monk's abilities utilize Stamina and Mana is more
sensible, as your mage isn't going to have much stamina...
Sure, they'll still be able to do extra melee dmg if they've got high enough
WAFT, but what mage actually uses Wrestling offensively?
In my own experience over the last 4 years with a mage, it's a heckuva lot
easier to just lay down a Fire field, loose a poison field, cast a Blade
Spirit, or an Energy Vortex, then add in an extra poke with a spell here and
there to speed things up.
Mages are built to go after powerful critters with spectacular powers, beyond
those of your average person, not go boxing balrons.
Wrestling with mages is simply a not-so-necessary-anymore evil.
Now, if you don't want your spells interrupted, simply cast Protection, and
you're good to go, with 100 extra skill points to spread around.
>Chi is essential for monkhood, and
>equivalent to mana in using the Paladin's abilities and warrier's
>special moves.
>
The thing is, regardless of his mana/chi whatevers, the mage still has the WAFT
skills. Unless you limit the extra wrestling damage to when he's engaged his
Chi, it doesn't matter if he converts or not.
And if you force the chi thing on your monk, then every other wrestler that
doesn't want to be a monk, yet has the waft skills, will demand the extra
damage, and you've got an uproar, as with the varied bonuses like the
parry/resist bases.
> Most classes will desire to maximize
>at least one stat, but a monk cannot do so. Even if he manages to
>raise his stat cap to the max 255, none of his individual stats can
>exceed 90.
Another potential source of outcry. There was a recent post on the ideas den
forum on stratics(think it's the idea's den...) about adding in races, or at
least differing sizes of characters. The poster came up with the idea that the
various sizes should have differing max stats...
In Ultima, everyone is built equal, we're all on a level playing field at
birth, it's only how we develop our "bodies" that determines what we're most
effective in. As such, everyone has the same limits across the board.
Forcing one class to work within reduced constraints wouldn't appeal to many
players, and ultimately you end up with a skill/class used about as much as
Forensics.
>2) the more balanced his stats, the greater his resistances,
> up to 5% accross the board if he is exactly balanced
> (75/75/75 normally, up to 85/85/85 at the maximum
> stat cap).
This would again cause MASS outcry...why should one class exceed the resist
limits(70 across the board), simply because they have their stats balanced a
certain way?
Everyone would scream & moan about this, and demand it for their class, and it
would likely be shot down completely.
> 4) his dedication to the martial arts leads to increased
> skill with a very limited number of normal weapons,
> one from each weapon category.
And then you've got the people with GM skills that took time and effort to
obtain up in another uproar.
Why does one class gain a set cluster of skills to become a martial artist,
then suddenly they get to use EVERY weapon like a GM?
No, i don't see that coming to pass.
>5) his training, focus, and chi allow him to avoid physical
> damage more often than other warriers. This is
> implemented with a bonus to Parry of up to 20 points.
Nope, don't see it. If the monk wants parry, he should train parrying. At GM
level, they'd have 30% blockage, just like everyone else, thus keeping the
classes "balanced"
From my experience as a warrior, i can attest that 30% is pretty darn good, i
rarely get hit by your medium end monster, and can take on large clusters of
lower end creatures without taking more than a scratch of damage here and
there, usually from some blasted chunk of bone when i cleave them with my
blade...
>The design necessity of such a thing is clear; he can
> never have as many hit points as other classes.
True, but with the various HP enhancing jewlery, they can.
Also, if they're doing such a great amount of damage, there should be a cost,
reduced defence has been the commonly accepted sacrifice of the Monk/Martial
Artist Class in just about all online games to date, and it works out just
fine.
>6) (new to proposal)
> his chi allows him to conceal himself somewhat better
> than other classes. He has up to a 20-point bonus to
> Hiding.
*shakes head*
I'm sorry, but that really doesn't sit well...now we have a monk that makes a
perfect PK. They can hide more easily than even an experienced Rogue, and thus
can sit in the shadows, wait for a victim, then poof, they're gone once the
deed is done...Sounds a little too ninja-ish to me.
>Although I am realistic in the knowledge this
>proposal will likely not be accepted. What the heck. They didn't
>accept my reaperwood proposal either. :) I expect a lot more "don't
>care" than opposition.
It's a sound idea, just has a few too many areas in which it could be easily
exploited into a new uber class for the twinks to play with.
Imagine, you're out hunting, enjoying yourself, when Captain Monktastic springs
from the shadows, steals your kills with his bare fists, then when you move
away, he whips out a bow and uses it better than even the most experienced
ranger, steals yet another kill, then moves in on your next with a
sword/mace/dagger...whatever...
It's just got grief written all over it.
Though on the reaperwood thing, i've been tinkering with the notion of there
being differing wood types for awhile now...
I mean, why would wood cut from an ohii tree be just as sturdy as wood from an
oak, or even a massive Yew tree?
Fletchers need something new to do, preferably before they get a BOD system
dumped on them for 5 differing Bow types...
>If the advantages do indeed make the class
>overpowered, then the amounts of additional ability(ies) can be
>reduced until the character class is "fair". (Now the question is
>"fair" compared to a tamer or bard, or compared to an axeman. :)
Likely compared to your average foot soldier, because the last thing we need is
another tamer/bard level Uber class to spoil the game even more...(besides, a
melee type couldn't handle the level of monster a tamer, bard, mage or whatnot
can, and as annoying a fact as that is, it makes sense in the long run...going
toe to toe with a dragon might've worked for fairy tales and the Avatar, but
normal people have their limits.)
If any of that came off as grumpy, i just am lately, don't take any of it
personally, and weed out any good points i may have accidentally let slip.
~Cyrus of Sosaria~
Rock
> I still say making the Monk's abilities utilize Stamina and Mana is more
> sensible, as your mage isn't going to have much stamina...
You may be correct in thinking the distinction between mana & chi
would lead to problems. It wasn't an original part of my proposal,
but I still see it as a "simple" solution.
> Sure, they'll still be able to do extra melee dmg if they've got high enough
> WAFT, but what mage actually uses Wrestling offensively?
Well, none that I know of. No class uses it offensively because it is
nerfed in a major way.
> In my own experience over the last 4 years with a mage, it's a heckuva lot
> easier to just lay down a Fire field, loose a poison field, cast a Blade
> Spirit, or an Energy Vortex, then add in an extra poke with a spell here and
> there to speed things up.
Ouch, that hurts! My main is a macer, and to have any chance at all
against a mage he must close in fast and swing like there's no
tomorrow. (Usually there wasn't :) What I want to prevent is having
a mage do all of what you say -- then, when a melee'r closes in, be
able to do significant wrestling damage IN ADDITION TO all the magic
damage at the same time. Right now his wrestling skill is merely
protecting the mage. As a monkage, it would be a significant
offenseive ability as well. There needs to be some mechanism to
prevent a monkage from performing simultaneous magic and physical
attacks. Otherwise he owns any melee'r who fights him.
How would your idea of a mana/stamina penalty work? My proposal
includes a minor mana (chi) drain, 2 points per 10 seconds. At one
point I added that this would allow a 1 point per 10 second recovery
gain to both stamina and hit points. If that compensation were
removed, the proposal is back to loss only, which in a moment of
genius you dubbed "tithe chi". <big grin>
As a reminder, this is the monkage/necromonk template I worry about:
GM Wrestling, Anatomy, Focus, Tactics (WAFT)
GM Magery, Meditation, Eval Int
(or GM Necromancy, Meditation, Spirit Speak in 2nd line)
It's kind of like a "Tank", but with no weapon except hands&feet.
(Would that make him a Minivan? ;) If Swordsmanship were substituted
for Wrestling, there would be no problem because the Mage could not
use a sword and magery at the same time. And if he put away the sword
to cast a spell, he would have no active protection against physical
blows.
The design problem is this -- how to prevent such a monkage or
necromonk from having a decisive advantage over a pure melee'ing
warrier. You can't penalyze stamina too much, or he will be lousy at
martial arts. IMO, you cant' penalyze mana too much or he'll be lousy
at weapon moves and chivalry.
> >Chi is essential for monkhood, and
> >equivalent to mana in using the Paladin's abilities and warrier's
> >special moves.
> >
>
> The thing is, regardless of his mana/chi whatevers, the mage still has the WAFT
> skills. Unless you limit the extra wrestling damage to when he's engaged his
> Chi, it doesn't matter if he converts or not.
In my concept, it matters in that the mage doesn't have mage spells
available. In effect the monkage and necromonk template would be
rendered almost useless (but the monk could be an effective Paladin).
Some things just don't work well together, such as tamer/carpenter
right now. You have to choose one or the other.
> And if you force the chi thing on your monk, then every other wrestler that
> doesn't want to be a monk, yet has the waft skills, will demand the extra
> damage, and you've got an uproar, ...
In my concept, there wouldn't be "other wrestlers". Without chi,
wrestling remains a defensive skill, no matter how high the WAFT
skills. I really don't see the uproar. There is no reason to seek a
high WAFT level unless you want to be a monk, and if you want to be a
monk, you have chi. Nothing is being taken away from the current
game; something is being added.
> In Ultima, everyone is built equal, we're all on a level playing field at
> birth, it's only how we develop our "bodies" that determines what we're most
> effective in. As such, everyone has the same limits across the board.
>
> Forcing one class to work within reduced constraints wouldn't appeal to many
> players, and ultimately you end up with a skill/class used about as much as
> Forensics.
Here we disagree, although you may be correct that many players would
not understand. Not being able to bring a stat above 90 does not
result in "reduced contraints"; instead it yields "balance". Think
zen -- the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. He starts out
with the same 225 stat cap as everone else. He has the same
opportunity to raise the stat cap to 255 as everone else.
> >2) the more balanced his stats, the greater his resistances,
> > up to 5% accross the board if he is exactly balanced
> > (75/75/75 normally, up to 85/85/85 at the maximum
> > stat cap).
>
> This would again cause MASS outcry...why should one class exceed the resist
> limits(70 across the board), simply because they have their stats balanced a
> certain way?
He shouldn't, and I'm sorry for not specifying so. The resist limits
would remain at 70 for the monk, but he would have up to a 5% head
start. Note that a totally unbalanced monk (90/75/60) would have 0%
over anyone else.
> Everyone would scream & moan about this, and demand it for their class, and it
> would likely be shot down completely.
I would have no objection to the balance bonus (BB) being available
for any class. If they seek balance, give them the same resist reward
I propose for monks. The formula is:
BB = 5 - (maxStat - minStat)/6
maxStat and minStat bound between 90 and 60
> > 4) his dedication to the martial arts leads to increased
> > skill with a very limited number of normal weapons,
> > one from each weapon category.
>
> And then you've got the people with GM skills that took time and effort to
> obtain up in another uproar.
You convinced me, at least partly. I originally proposed that WASP/2
be added to the skill level for each of the 4 weapons. Thus with 50
natural points in mace, he would have 100-level skill with a
quarterstaff. (The WASP/2 score could not bring the skill level with
qstaff above the skill cap, though.) This was a bad idea, because as
you say it cheapens the concept of grand mastership of a skill.
Here's how I would modify the idea. Same 4 weapons, but the max skill
which would be added for any of those weapons would be 45 (9*WASP/20).
Once natural skill added 50 points to the WASP-related skill, the
skill level would freeze (95 if at GM WAFT). It would only be
unfrozen when natural skill level surpassed 95.
> Why does one class gain a set cluster of skills to become a martial artist,
> then suddenly they get to use EVERY weapon like a GM?
??? I never proposed "EVERY weapon", only 4 specific weapons. Even
then a monk would have to have significant natural skill points in the
weapon being used.
Your news: server probably lost my original post. The URL at Google
Groups is:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3947f9dd.0303272039.13fe33b5%40posting.google.com
> >5) his training, focus, and chi allow him to avoid physical
> > damage more often than other warriers. This is
> > implemented with a bonus to Parry of up to 20 points.
>
> Nope, don't see it. If the monk wants parry, he should train parrying. At GM
> level, they'd have 30% blockage, just like everyone else, thus keeping the
> classes "balanced"
Ok, you're right again. The bonus to parry would no longer be able to
extend its skill cap. As with the other resistances, it would only be
a "head start", not an extension of limits.
> Also, if they're doing such a great amount of damage, there should be a cost,
> reduced defence has been the commonly accepted sacrifice of the Monk/Martial
> Artist Class in just about all online games to date, and it works out just
> fine.
Actually, if you review the original proposal, you'll see that there
never was "such a great amount of damage". The damage level I propose
is the same as could be accomplished by any other melee skill. It is
"fast and midrange" damage, like a katana or quarterstaff, not "slow
and huge" damage like a war hammer.
That's one reason I want the class to be able to use a bow well with
only 50 bowmanship points. At PVM, hands&feet would stink against
hard monsters. The monk's blows would come quick, but the critter's
armor would reduce the damage tremendously. The bow I associated with
the monk (compound) is also a midrange damage weapon. My experience
is, if he starts with 200 arrows, and can stay alive while using them,
a master bowman can kill most anything.
Other warriers have the option to use slow but heavy-damage weapons.
Earlier you suggested that certain gloves or footwear could be used to
alter his fighting characteristics. I agreed, so I suppose there
could be "slow gloves with heavy damage". My original concept added
flexibility by the allowance for the other 4 weapons, though.
> >6) (new to proposal)
> > his chi allows him to conceal himself somewhat better
> > than other classes. He has up to a 20-point bonus to
> > Hiding.
>
> I'm sorry, but that really doesn't sit well...now we have a monk that makes a
> perfect PK. They can hide more easily than even an experienced Rogue, and thus
> can sit in the shadows, wait for a victim, then poof, they're gone once the
> deed is done...Sounds a little too ninja-ish to me.
It was meant to be ninja-ish. But I'm not hung-up on this one. If
you feel it is unbalancing, its gone.
> It's a sound idea, just has a few too many areas in which it could be easily
> exploited into a new uber class for the twinks to play with.
The monk isn't meant to be an über class, but a truly alternative one.
Instead of maxing everything he can, he seeks balance in the
fundamentals. Think of it as a new age, holistic thing. :)
> If any of that came off as grumpy, i just am lately, don't take any of it
> personally, and weed out any good points i may have accidentally let slip.
:) It wasn't grumpy at all. I really appreciate the feedback.
-- Rich
Cyrus
>against a mage he must close in fast and swing like there's no
>tomorrow. (Usually there wasn't :)
Actually, there's some nifty abilities available with the weapon moves
now...lances for one have the Concussion Blow maneuver..yeah, i know, it's the
old two handed sword special attack, big deal, right?
Wrong! Concussion Blow is a BLENDER move now...doing a primary hit of _at
least_ double damage, then an immediate follow up for normal...i was able to
drop an earth elemental(which has about 85-100 hps now) in one Concussion
attack without even using any Chivalry moves, using a GM Lance...
I'm pretty sure at least one mace has it, and the primary blow may well be
based on the enemy's int, either way it hits HARD, and the second blow is a
killer.
And if you can't find a mace with it, just grab a good "Use Best" Weapon with
it on there, should clean a mage's clock if they're smart enough...(of course,
double strike does it as well, not sure if that's on any mace, either...mostly
i just use fencing/swords)
>How would your idea of a mana/stamina penalty work?
I'd say something as simple as the monk gets special abilities akin to the
paladin, some sort of book or huju they carry that comes complete with
everything they need to get started, and the moves they can use are limited to
their WAFT level, and of course have high end failure rates until you achieve
the "pinacle of monkhood".
~Inserts New Idea:~
Perhaps even tie the monk's skills into the sanctified Ankh/p.crystal, and
whatever virtue it's been aligned to, each would give differing abilities, ex.
Compassion would focus on abilities for healing and defence, Valor on Damage
output, Honor might be a mix of both, strong yet weak at once, etc, etc.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When using a move, it takes a toll on both your mana and stamina in a single
shot, and this is where focus keeps your monk in the battle, but doesn't just
provide them with instant refreshment(though refresh potions can refill stam
pretty quick, there's not likely to be a mana potion anytime soon, WAY too
easily exploited), thus limiting just how often they can use their moves.
But of course, in keeping balance, the moves WILL unleash a fairly impressive
amount of damage, perhaps also influenced by their WAFT & their current stat
set up.
Let's face it, if there isn't some pay off in power, a move won't be used, and
a class won't either.
Keying the damage of a move into both WAFT & stats would also cause the monk to
strive for that perfect zen-like stat mix, where they have just enough str to
unleash potent damage, and just enough mana/stamina to keep those moves coming.
>GM Wrestling, Anatomy, Focus, Tactics (WAFT)
> GM Magery, Meditation, Eval Int
>(or GM Necromancy, Meditation, Spirit Speak in 2nd line)
>If Swordsmanship were substituted
>for Wrestling, there would be no problem because the Mage could not
>use a sword and magery at the same time.
Actually, this worries me as well, and the thing is, with the Mage Weapons, the
monk doesn't even need to sacrifice wrestling for _any_ skill...they just get
their magery up as much as possible(120, then a 6xGM at 4th year status), and
get a low drain mage weapon, and becoming quite frighteningly powerful pretty
quickly...
>The design problem is this -- how to prevent such a monkage or
>necromonk from having a decisive advantage over a pure melee'ing
>warrier. You can't penalyze stamina too much, or he will be lousy at
>martial arts. IMO, you cant' penalyze mana too much or he'll be lousy
>at weapon moves and chivalry.
Aye, this is a problem...the addition of a new skill attainable at 60/60/60/60
WAFT would work somewhat, but it still leaves 200 dangerous skill points to
play with, plenty of room for magery/ei, or Necro/SS...
But making the monks abilities depend on both stamina and mana forces a
position where they have less mana available for magic, because they need
stamina...but a good mage doesn't really need alot of mana, just enough for
summon demon or EV if they want to drop things really fast...it's a hard little
nut to crack here...and there may not be any real limit to the potential of the
monkage or necromonk...
>Ok, you're right again. The bonus to parry would no longer be able to
>extend its skill cap. As with the other resistances, it would only be
>a "head start", not an extension of limits.
Without the parry bonus, there is a slight limit on the effectiveness of a
non-parrying monk.
Trust me when i say that if i didn't have parry, i wouldn't go anywhere near
melee combat right now...and melee is my life.
Thus removing this goes someways towards eliminating the monkage/necromonk, but
still leaves a dangerous 100 points that could be utilized as i point out
somewhere below.(i inserted this after. ^-^)
>He shouldn't, and I'm sorry for not specifying so. The resist limits
>would remain at 70 for the monk, but he would have up to a 5% head
>start. Note that a totally unbalanced monk (90/75/60) would have 0%
>over anyone else.
Yeah, misread things a tad there, but i still think a resist bonus wouldn't
fly...in my own experiments, 1% in a resist either way can influence how
effective magic can be.
For example, before my latest armor revisions for my resistance suit, i had 49
Energy protection, and was being hit with e-bolts pretty regularly. Brought it
up to 50%(and now 52) with a new shield and poof, instantly blocking about
60-70% of e-bolts...
Give your monk a base percentage here and there, and you quickly have a
powerful little anti-caster roaming about.
My resist suit is currently full body leather, head & hands metal, so even
putting some sort of speed constraints on metal armor, or decreased accuracy
for your monk wouldn't really matter, because it's pretty simple to make an
effective resist suit with mostly leather.(rings/bracelets make it even easier
if you can find good ones with multiple strong elements)
Oh, and since some(or all)skills seem to be able to gain any stat now,
balancing your stats is as simple as locking two and raising one in turn,
getting them to the balance level one by one, then locking them when perfectly
in synch, so an unbalanced monk would likely be uncommon, and easily remedied
to take advantage of the bonus.
>> And then you've got the people with GM skills that took time and effort to
>> obtain up in another uproar.
>
>You convinced me, at least partly.
Doesn't really matter when you consider the "monkage" anyway...even with the
chi conversion added to the mix, get a good amount of magery skill along with
the wafts, then slap on a mage weapon, and you've still got a class that can
utilize any weapon effectively, and they don't even need their mana or their
magery at that point...so pretty much a futile point i made when i gave it more
thought. (A mage weapon bow would be particularly nasty on a monkage, because
then they have range & whatever bonuses the monk entails)
>??? I never proposed "EVERY weapon", only 4 specific weapons.
Yeah, nm that, having a crazy, forgetful, brainfart-laden posting week. Doesn't
help that my "hold for 3 days" article limit is quickly dragging our debate
into the depths of the NG, hehe
>It was meant to be ninja-ish. But I'm not hung-up on this one. If
>you feel it is unbalancing, its gone.
>
It was an interesting idea, i just feel it could be exploited a tad...besides,
at GM hiding/stealth, sneaking around is pretty easy without Chi helping.
(i made a stealther on AoS bug fixes to play around in Doom last week, with my
complete lack of experience with stealthing, and about 5 minutes of training,
figuring out how many steps you can take before being revealed, and the skill
timer between stealths, i was able to easily & safely travel to each and every
"artifact" drop spot in the first half of the dungeon, and even got to witness
a group slaying several Bone Demons from the shadows, didn't get any goodies,
though, they were all long gone. :{, oh well)
>The monk isn't meant to be an über class, but a truly alternative one.
Point taken, but judging by some of the classes we've seen rise up in the past,
one can not be too careful...
(See: guy with guitar controlling spawns, or: guy that tames doggies one day,
dragons the next over-running dungeons)
~Cyrus of Sosaria~
Rock
> >How would your idea of a mana/stamina penalty work?
>
> I'd say something as simple as the monk gets special abilities akin to the
> paladin, some sort of book or huju they carry that comes complete with
> everything they need to get started, and the moves they can use are limited to
> their WAFT level, and of course have high end failure rates until you achieve
> the "pinacle of monkhood".
[Scissors]
Ok, what have you done with the *real* Cyrus? -- the one who thinks
altering gumps would be too complex, even so little as changing ASCII
text between "mana" and "chi"? By the Virtues, if you have hurt him
in any way, I'll hunt you down and skin you alive like the miserable
mongbat you are!
[/Scissors]
Uh, sorry. Scissors is an axer/bowman who spends most of his time in
Felucca. He's a little rough around the edges. (Honestly, he isn't
the brightest candle at the abbey, either.) I recognize we're
throwing around ideas, and, as one thinks about the Monk class,
concepts will change over time. Your new idea just caught us a little
offguard, that's all. :)
> ~Inserts New Idea:~
> Perhaps even tie the monk's skills into the sanctified Ankh/p.crystal, and
> whatever virtue it's been aligned to, each would give differing abilities, ex.
> Compassion would focus on abilities for healing and defence, Valor on Damage
> output, Honor might be a mix of both, strong yet weak at once, etc, etc.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Our roles seem to have reversed. Now I'm the one who thinks the idea
is too complex and unnecessary. At a later publish, your concept has
some ideas well worth considering. It was my goal from the beginning
to keep the initial implementation simple.
I'm especially hesitant to add another "spell" book. There are four
of the darn things already. I don't object to the Paladin's book
being extended with some virtue-relative abilities, though.
Is this solution to the "monkage problem" any less game-altering than
my proposal to make chi and mana mutually exclusive? The non-magic
books (special moves and chivalry) could be powered by chi or mana,
while the magic books (magery and necromancy) could be powered only by
mana.
> Keying the damage of a move into both WAFT & stats would also cause the monk to
> strive for that perfect zen-like stat mix, where they have just enough str to
> unleash potent damage, and just enough mana/stamina to keep those moves coming.
Agreed. We can't give up on tithe-chi!
> >The design problem is this -- how to prevent such a monkage or
> >necromonk from having a decisive advantage over a pure melee'ing
> >warrier. You can't penalyze stamina too much, or he will be lousy at
> >martial arts. IMO, you cant' penalyze mana too much or he'll be lousy
> >at weapon moves and chivalry.
>
> Aye, this is a problem...the addition of a new skill attainable at 60/60/60/60
> WAFT would work somewhat, but it still leaves 200 dangerous skill points to
> play with, plenty of room for magery/ei, or Necro/SS...
I don't like the idea of another actual skill. My year-2000 Monk
proposal had one, which couldn't become active until Wrestling reached
a certain point. Now with Battle Focus, that *is* the new skill. I
really think the synergy of WAFT (Wrestling, Anatomy, Focus, and
Tactics) is the heart of a hands&feet martial artist. Actually,
substitute another weapon skill for wrestling, and it's a darn good
basis for any warrier. That's kind of the point. The martial arts
include all fighting skills, not just hands&feet.
The hurdle is to allow wrestling to maintain its traditional defensive
functionality, but add the capability for its use as an offensive
force -- without überizing mages.
!!! Heck, the flaw is obvious in my chi/mana concept. Where I went
wrong was mandating a time delay between switching from one to the
other. With no time delay, a magonk is little different than a
mage/swordsman or a mage/bowman. While the monk is wearing his
sanctified ankh, he can't cast mage or necromantic spells. Once he
removes it, he can.
Substitute "wielding a sword" for "wearing his sanctified ankh", and
the parallel is clear. The magonk has an advantage over a
swordsman/monk -- he can still actively block a lot of damage while
unarmed. He has disadvanteges as well:
* requirement for high anatomy skill
* requirement for high tactics skill
* max intelligence of 90
It is certainly feasable for a mage/swordsman to have high anatomy and
tactics. I thought UO had been tuned so as to limit the effectiveness
of such "tank" classes. Plus you stated that the effectiveness of the
Protection spell has been increased. This makes Wrestling a "nice to
have", not a "must have".
I now feel that my concern relating to monkages and necromonks was
unwarranted. It is sufficient that wearing the sanctified ankh
prevents casting such spells, just as does wielding a mace. (Not sure
if wielding a mace prevents the casting of necromantic spells.
Regardless, I feel that the sanctified ankh should prevent it.) Once
the ankh is removed, spellcasting ability returns.
Do you agree? (And yes, this is the same Rock you've been talking to
the whole time! ;)
> But making the monks abilities depend on both stamina and mana forces a
> position where they have less mana available for magic, because they need
> stamina...but a good mage doesn't really need alot of mana, just enough for
> summon demon or EV if they want to drop things really fast...it's a hard little
> nut to crack here...and there may not be any real limit to the potential of the
> monkage or necromonk...
Man, that was a quick answer! Does this concern apply only to monks?
Wouldn't it apply equally to the following template?
GM Swords, Tactics, Focus
GM Magery, Eval Int, Meditation
50 Resist, Inscription
I see the concern as one applying generally to "tanks", not one unique
to this proposal.
> >Ok, you're right again. The bonus to parry would no longer be able to
> >extend its skill cap. As with the other resistances, it would only be
> >a "head start", not an extension of limits.
>
> Without the parry bonus, there is a slight limit on the effectiveness of a
> non-parrying monk.
> Trust me when i say that if i didn't have parry, i wouldn't go anywhere near
> melee combat right now...and melee is my life.
> Thus removing this goes someways towards eliminating the monkage/necromonk, but
> still leaves a dangerous 100 points that could be utilized as I point out
> somewhere below. (I inserted this after. ^-^)
Not sure I follow. Do you like or dislike the idea of a monk having a
head start in parry skill? (I don't follow the "100 points" allusion
at all. Did you delete something after the "after"?)
> Give your monk a base percentage here and there, and you quickly have a
> powerful little anti-caster roaming about.
> My resist suit is currently full body leather, head & hands metal, so even
> putting some sort of speed constraints on metal armor, or decreased accuracy
> for your monk wouldn't really matter, because it's pretty simple to make an
> effective resist suit with mostly leather.(rings/bracelets make it even easier
> if you can find good ones with multiple strong elements)
With the 70% resistance limit, doesn't the Balance Bonus (no more than
5%) amount to just one more earring? Also, are there resistance
necklaces? Remember, with him required to wear a sanctified ankh, he
couldn't wear a nifty necklace of anti-fire/ice.
> >The monk isn't meant to be an über class, but a truly alternative one.
>
> Point taken, but judging by some of the classes we've seen rise up in the past,
> one can not be too careful...
> (See: guy with guitar controlling spawns, or: guy that tames doggies one day,
> dragons the next over-running dungeons)
Yes, my devious masterplan will become clear during "Phase 2" ... ;)
-- Rich
Cyrus
>altering gumps would be too complex, even so little as changing ASCII
>text between "mana" and "chi"?
i basically tried to sum a bunch of ideas up in a condensed space, think they
got muddled...here's my basics:
Maybe no special abilities, or no spellbook, and i'll admit the different
virtues give different abilities thing is too much(but differing stat bonuses
or defence/damage bonuses depending on the sanc'd virtue would work just fine),
but the monk does need some sort of limit that causes them to have reduced
mana, or maybe just a slow drain on mana/stamina that regens hps over time?
That would be very handy for a monk, since they'd be going toe to toe with
monsters often enough to take a few bruises...a constant hp regen would keep
them in the battle, but keep it set just low enough as to not be
overpowering.(no, i don't know what i'm getting at here, just in case it seems
confusing)
>> Keying the damage of a move into both WAFT & stats would also cause the
>monk to
>> strive for that perfect zen-like stat mix,
New idea: WAFT gives a bonus to the damage used by a special weapon move, and
lowers the mana burn, but at the cost of a small amount of stamina, equal to
the mana saved.
*shrugs*
>Not sure I follow. Do you like or dislike the idea of a monk having a
>head start in parry skill? (I don't follow the "100 points" allusion
>at all. Did you delete something after the "after"?)
Umm, added that one bit after, and the part i was refering to(mage weapons
giving a monkage unlimited access to any weapon type), was actually above. :}
> Also, are there resistance
>necklaces? Remember, with him required to wear a sanctified ankh, he
>couldn't wear a nifty necklace of anti-fire/ice.
No resistance necklaces or earrings, the OSI guys felt they didn't want to ahve
guys feel it was required to wear them to be effectively equipped. Thus, we
only have Rings/Bracelets.
>(Not sure
>if wielding a mace prevents the casting of necromantic spells.
>Regardless, I feel that the sanctified ankh should prevent it.)
Good idea on the ankh simply preventing the use of magic spells...simpler than
the Chi conversion in the long run, and limits the effective monk from becoming
the monkage.
And no, weilding weapons doesn't affect necromancy in any way, unless you're
walking around with a faster cast -1 weapon...both Paladins & Necromancers have
the natural ability to cast while equipped.
(they're both basically melee magic classes at the heart, anyway...the
necromancer is full of spells that enhance their melee potential, but they also
can enhance there potential asa mage, i.e. Lich Form, Corpse Skin in PvP...and
the paladin makes a great tank, but also makes an excellent rage fighter, the
archer paladin is truly formidable...)
Nothing much new added...
~Cyrus of Sosaria~
*King of the Flu....cause he has it again...*