Planned Theft Changes
Tim Lisk
>
> I took this from the UOHOC chat tonight. It's from Designer Dragon on
> the changes they will be making to PvP theft:
>
> [begin quote]
>
> DesignerD> OK, so now that he took the blame, here's what we're doing:
>
> DesignerD> Lord British hath finally granted, after much petitioning,
> the request of the heretofore underground and forbidden Thieves Guild!
>
> DesignerD> They shall be granted an official charter by Lord British
> himself, to come into the open and be recognized as a true trading
> guild.
>
> DesignerD> However, LB had some strings attached...
>
> DesignerD> 1) Nobody will be allowed to PvP steal unless they are a
> member of the NPC Thieves Guild. They have an exclusive charter on
> this sort of activity.
No problem. My assassin will join...
> DesignerD> 2) There will be strict skill requirements for joining the
> Thieves Guild. Throwaway and macroed thieves need not apply.
Ditto...
> DesignerD> 3) The Thief Guildmaster hath decreed that since their
> charter is tenuous indeed, that murder is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN for
> members of the Guild. Violaters will not be allowed to members, and
> will be summarily expelled, possibly with very harsh penalties.
Provoking doesn't count, so no complaints here.
> DesignerD> 4) As thieves operate on the shady side of the law, members
> of the Thieves Guild will not be allowed to report anyone for murder.
> Ever.
Oh darn. Too bad my assassin is already perma flagged all the time.
> DesignerD> In other words, they can be killed at will.
>
> DesignerD> They will not, however, be flagged visibly as members all
> the time, so they can operate in the shadows until detected.
Oh joy.
> DesignerD> 5) Users of the Forensic Eval skill will be able to
> determine whether a person is a member of the Thieves Guild by using
> their mastery of detective powers.
I have a feeling word will get out, so perhaps Forensic Eval won't be
needed... :p
> DesignerD> In addition, there are some across the board changes
> coming.
>
> DesignerD> 1) Stealing will be difficulty based, based on weight of
> the item stolen.
No problems here.
> DesignerD> 2) There will be armor restrictions in place for many of
> the thief profession skills, including hiding, stealing, and stealth.
Perfect. My assassin doesn't wear any armor.
> DesignerD> 3) we will be examining success rates & chance of getting
> noticed, of course, given these changes
>
> DesignerD> 4) NPCs will have stuff worth stealing.
Sweetens the deal.
> DesignerD> 5) Trying to steal stacks will now take an amount from the
> stack, not the whole stack.
Hmm, for some reason this sounds familiar... almost as if it's already
in place?
> DesignerD> 6) Since you are assumed to know your home well, detecting
> hidden in your house will reveal EVERYONE with a very high (perhaps
> guaranteed) success rate
Cool beans.
> DesignerD> Oh--forgot this item about thief guild--you can't rejoin
> for 1 week if you resign.
>
> DesignerD> Now, to summarize: we stated that we would be drastically
> reducing the incidence of PvP thievery in the game. We believe these
> changes will accomplish that. But we also believe that the well
> roleplayed rogue has an important part to play in UO, and we will be
> working to ensure that theyt take their rightful place
>
> DesignerD> We want thieves to be a profession that is respected, not
> scorned and reviled. The PvP thief who actually lives with the
> penalties and downside and requirements of the Thieves Guild will be a
> dedicated player who represents the best possible side of PvP
> theft--and will also be damn rare.
>
> DesignerD> And the bulk of thieves will be adventuring rogues.
>
> <snip>
>
> DesignerD> stealing will still not be an aggressive action. Making it
> an agg action was something that many suggested, but which we
> ultimately decided not to do because of the overall harshness of the
> plan.
>
> DesignerD> BTW--I neglected to cover changes to snooping. Suffice it
> to say that there will be some. Including, for sure, a skill delay,
> and probably an "awareness" flag on victims that increases with
> repeated atte
>
> DesignerD> attempts.
Well, no complaints here. Looks like I'll just be able to get better
stuff from those random gypsies.
Anyone have a thief who's going to be adversely affected by this?
- Tim
Damocles
I took this from the UOHOC chat tonight. It's from Designer Dragon on
the changes they will be making to PvP theft:
[begin quote]
DesignerD> OK, so now that he took the blame, here's what we're doing:
DesignerD> Lord British hath finally granted, after much petitioning,
the request of the heretofore underground and forbidden Thieves Guild!
DesignerD> They shall be granted an official charter by Lord British
himself, to come into the open and be recognized as a true trading
guild.
DesignerD> However, LB had some strings attached...
DesignerD> 1) Nobody will be allowed to PvP steal unless they are a
member of the NPC Thieves Guild. They have an exclusive charter on
this sort of activity.
DesignerD> 2) There will be strict skill requirements for joining the
Thieves Guild. Throwaway and macroed thieves need not apply.
DesignerD> 3) The Thief Guildmaster hath decreed that since their
charter is tenuous indeed, that murder is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN for
members of the Guild. Violaters will not be allowed to members, and
will be summarily expelled, possibly with very harsh penalties.
DesignerD> 4) As thieves operate on the shady side of the law, members
of the Thieves Guild will not be allowed to report anyone for murder.
Ever.
DesignerD> In other words, they can be killed at will.
DesignerD> They will not, however, be flagged visibly as members all
the time, so they can operate in the shadows until detected.
DesignerD> 5) Users of the Forensic Eval skill will be able to
determine whether a person is a member of the Thieves Guild by using
their mastery of detective powers.
DesignerD> In addition, there are some across the board changes
coming.
DesignerD> 1) Stealing will be difficulty based, based on weight of
the item stolen.
DesignerD> 2) There will be armor restrictions in place for many of
the thief profession skills, including hiding, stealing, and stealth.
DesignerD> 3) we will be examining success rates & chance of getting
noticed, of course, given these changes
DesignerD> 4) NPCs will have stuff worth stealing.
DesignerD> 5) Trying to steal stacks will now take an amount from the
stack, not the whole stack.
DesignerD> 6) Since you are assumed to know your home well, detecting
hidden in your house will reveal EVERYONE with a very high (perhaps
guaranteed) success rate
DesignerD> Oh--forgot this item about thief guild--you can't rejoin
Vytor
message for them>
I hate thieves, so I like any improvements that can be made. I did
find the HoC chat kinda indefinate and confusing.
>
>DesignerD> 1) Nobody will be allowed to PvP steal unless they are a
>member of the NPC Thieves Guild. They have an exclusive charter on
>this sort of activity.
Does this mean you won't be able to steal from other players unless in
the guild?
>
>DesignerD> 2) There will be strict skill requirements for joining the
>Thieves Guild. Throwaway and macroed thieves need not apply.
If you can't steal from other players... Then i assume you are
required to steal from chests, NPCs, and monsters until you can reach
a skill level required to enter the guild. I assume higher then 60
stealing? 60 stealing is pretty easy to get with a throwaway
character.
Also, im kinda new. So i have another question. I notice you can
join NPC guilds. Some give you discounts. Can you be in a PC guild
and an NPC guild. Does the NPC guild show in anyway? Will the new
thieves be able to join player guilds?
>
>DesignerD> 3) The Thief Guildmaster hath decreed that since their
>charter is tenuous indeed, that murder is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN for
>members of the Guild. Violaters will not be allowed to members, and
>will be summarily expelled, possibly with very harsh penalties.
Penalties... Any specifics?
>DesignerD> 2) There will be armor restrictions in place for many of
>the thief profession skills, including hiding, stealing, and stealth.
I do hope they implement this. I think its kinda stupid that a guy in
full plate can hide. Full plate is anything but steathly.
>
>DesignerD> 4) NPCs will have stuff worth stealing.
>
>DesignerD> 5) Trying to steal stacks will now take an amount from the
>stack, not the whole stack.
I thought it already did this...
I know a great many "steal and kill" PKers that aren't going to be
happy. Just about every Blue jerk I deal with is of the "steal and
kill," or "field/blade jumper" varieties. Of coarse my trusty chest,
and now "bag and chest" bug has kept me safe.
Vytor of Baja
Kevin Gee
hehehe i'll be one of the first joining the guild if possible (depends on
requiremets like skill or whatever)
hehehehe this is really really really gonna be fun with my char now
really though the only reason i will join that guild is just to be in it
heheh
gotta be in the thiefs guild just gotta gotta gotta
Damocles <phae...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:36b12e42....@news.rdc1.va.home.com...
>
>I took this from the UOHOC chat tonight. It's from Designer Dragon on
>the changes they will be making to PvP theft:
>
>[begin quote]
>
>DesignerD> OK, so now that he took the blame, here's what we're doing:
>
>
>DesignerD> Lord British hath finally granted, after much petitioning,
>the request of the heretofore underground and forbidden Thieves Guild!
>
>
>DesignerD> They shall be granted an official charter by Lord British
>himself, to come into the open and be recognized as a true trading
>guild.
>
>DesignerD> However, LB had some strings attached...
>
>member of the NPC Thieves Guild. They have an exclusive charter on
>this sort of activity.
>
>Thieves Guild. Throwaway and macroed thieves need not apply.
>
>charter is tenuous indeed, that murder is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN for
>members of the Guild. Violaters will not be allowed to members, and
>will be summarily expelled, possibly with very harsh penalties.
>
>of the Thieves Guild will not be allowed to report anyone for murder.
>Ever.
>
>DesignerD> In other words, they can be killed at will.
>
>DesignerD> They will not, however, be flagged visibly as members all
>the time, so they can operate in the shadows until detected.
>
>DesignerD> 5) Users of the Forensic Eval skill will be able to
>determine whether a person is a member of the Thieves Guild by using
>their mastery of detective powers.
>
>DesignerD> In addition, there are some across the board changes
>coming.
>
>DesignerD> 1) Stealing will be difficulty based, based on weight of
>the item stolen.
>
>the thief profession skills, including hiding, stealing, and stealth.
>
>noticed, of course, given these changes
>
>
>DesignerD> 5) Trying to steal stacks will now take an amount from the
>stack, not the whole stack.
>
Vytor
>>DesignerD> 3) The Thief Guildmaster hath decreed that since their
>>charter is tenuous indeed, that murder is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN for
>>members of the Guild. Violaters will not be allowed to members, and
>>will be summarily expelled, possibly with very harsh penalties.
>
>an agg action was something that many suggested, but which we
>ultimately decided not to do because of the overall harshness of the
Wait a minute. If stealing isn't an agressive action, and only MURDER
is forbidden.... How does that solve Blue pking? Because right now,
if someone steals from you, and they kill you it's not a murder.
Won't that just force all thief pkers to be of the steal, and kill
type...
Maybe I missed something. Does anyone else see this?
Vytor of Baja
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|Wait a minute. If stealing isn't an agressive action, and only MURDER
|is forbidden.... How does that solve Blue pking? Because right now,
|if someone steals from you, and they kill you it's not a murder.
|Won't that just force all thief pkers to be of the steal, and kill
|type...
|
|Maybe I missed something. Does anyone else see this?
First thing I noticed.
If they don't make stealing aggressive, this whole exercise is a waste of
time.
Dennis F. Heffernan UO: Venture (Catskills) dfra...@email.com
Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
when Victoria reigned." -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Sohi
: I took this from the UOHOC chat tonight. It's from Designer Dragon on
: the changes they will be making to PvP theft:
: [begin quote]
: DesignerD> 3) The Thief Guildmaster hath decreed that since their
: charter is tenuous indeed, that murder is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN for
: members of the Guild. Violaters will not be allowed to members, and
: will be summarily expelled, possibly with very harsh penalties.
Looks like the ned of the Tank Thief provacatuer
Bob Roland
>
> DesignerD> stealing will still not be an aggressive action. Making it
> an agg action was something that many suggested, but which we
> ultimately decided not to do because of the overall harshness of the
> plan.
Thank god. I was saying to myself the other day how boring this game
would be is PKs didn't have this loophole in the noto system. IMHO,
there are *way* too many red pks. Thank god the blue PKs still have a
chance. I mean, where would we be the glorious lord sir lancelot
couldn't give me the option of having everything I own stolen, or have
him kill me.
Grrr......
I think tonight I'm going to a bar. I'm going to steal someones
wallet. If they try to attack me, I'm going to shoot them.
I'll just explain to the police that considering my stealing his wallet
an agressive act was just *way* too harsh.
HELLO!? MCFLY!? ARE YOU IN THERE?!!
If not for pks exploiting the noto system, I wouldn't have had too much
problem with the thief skill.
So now my big question is "how do they eliminate blue pks if this
loophole still exists?"
I can see the development team now. "We want you to kill within the
guildwar system, or just learn how to steal black pearls from other
players."
Riiiiigggghhhhtttt.
The rest of it sounded like it would be pretty fun to play a thief
character. If not for this nasty morality thing I have going, I
probally would. Oh well.
Like the tailoring patch, it seems that we have good intentions, poor
planning.
Great Bob
Trying hard to be overly cynical....
And on the bright side, at least now we know that we'll *allways* have a
need for the Rangers.
Damocles
Heffernan) wrote:
>
> First thing I noticed.
>
> If they don't make stealing aggressive, this whole exercise is a waste of
>time.
>
Did you even read the rest of the post? There will be severe armor
penalties on thieves, they can't murder, and ANY stealing attempt on
any player means that they are perma flagged and can be killed
immediately by anyone, anywhere WITHOUT a 2 minute expiry on death. In
other words, they can be killed over and over again on sight. Not only
that, but there will be no more throwaways.
I think it's great.
Kevin Gee
you are pretty much permaflagged
and if you kill someone trying to get their stuff back you get kicked out of
the guild with whatever penalities they are planning
Vytor <dono...@no.com> wrote in message
news:36b2694b...@pangeatech.ispnews.com...
>
>>>DesignerD> 3) The Thief Guildmaster hath decreed that since their
>>>charter is tenuous indeed, that murder is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN for
>>>members of the Guild. Violaters will not be allowed to members, and
>>>will be summarily expelled, possibly with very harsh penalties.
>>
>>an agg action was something that many suggested, but which we
>>ultimately decided not to do because of the overall harshness of the
>
>Wait a minute. If stealing isn't an agressive action, and only MURDER
>is forbidden.... How does that solve Blue pking? Because right now,
>if someone steals from you, and they kill you it's not a murder.
>Won't that just force all thief pkers to be of the steal, and kill
>type...
>
>Maybe I missed something. Does anyone else see this?
>
Dundee
>>member of the NPC Thieves Guild. They have an exclusive charter on
>>this sort of activity.
>
>snoop them (figuratively) to death?
As he said: "BTW--I neglected to cover changes to snooping. Suffice it
to say that there will be some. Including, for sure, a skill delay,
and probably an "awareness" flag on victims that increases with
repeated attempts."
>Huh? How do you tell a macroed thief from a 'legitimate' thief?
Age of the character would be my guess. If you are a GM Stealer and
the character is only 6 hours old... well...
>So a Guild thief and a Blue PK work in tandem: the Blue attacks the
>victim, the Guild thief steals his regs so he can't get away. Not
>sure this helps or not.
It doesn't help much. Most of the time the steal-n-killers weren't
taking murdercounts anyway. And with stealing being "non aggressive",
they still won't.
>>DesignerD> 4) As thieves operate on the shady side of the law, members
>>of the Thieves Guild will not be allowed to report anyone for murder.
>>Ever.
>
>I hate this part.
I like it, maybe.
>>DesignerD> In other words, they can be killed at will.
Is that _really_ what it means? Or does it just mean that they can't
report people for murder? Difference being, for example, do I get
crim' flagged for attacking them? Can I attack them in town?
>Oh, yeah: The fact that he's running around in leather and skulking
>in the shadows is NO INDICATION AT ALL that he's a thief, right. I
>hope they allow disguises.
What shadows?
Mind you, LOTS of people will be wearing leather armor pretty soon.
>>DesignerD> 2) There will be armor restrictions in place for many of
>>the thief profession skills, including hiding, stealing, and stealth.
>
>Hiding will be nerfed again?
Good.
>>DesignerD> 6) Since you are assumed to know your home well, detecting
>>hidden in your house will reveal EVERYONE with a very high (perhaps
>>guaranteed) success rate
>
>"Funny, I don't remember that floor lamp in here before..."
Not sure I like this. It takes skill points or loss of some very
valuable skill points when you use it, and they are just gonna hide
immediately, again. And does this mean I can become a GM Detector
overnight by "detecting" a friend in my house?
>>DesignerD> stealing will still not be an aggressive action. Making it
>>an agg action was something that many suggested, but which we
>>ultimately decided not to do because of the overall harshness of the
>>plan.
>
>This is harsh?
Yeah, it takes away the thief's ability to assist in killing you
without taking responsibility for the murder. Or for that matter, to
steal-n-kill you the way they have been doing. Can't have that.
>>DesignerD> BTW--I neglected to cover changes to snooping. Suffice it
>>to say that there will be some. Including, for sure, a skill delay,
>>and probably an "awareness" flag on victims that increases with
>>repeated atte
Say, I thought he had "every little detail" worked out on this...
I would LOVE for snooping to become an action skill so that it is
absolutely impossible to "accidentally snoop" something. The loss of
karma and skill points from dbl-clicking something you shouldn't have
*sucks*.
--
Dundee of Lake Superior - SkeptAck AT antisocial DOT com
The Town of Skara Brae: http://members.xoom.com/skara/
UO related stuff: http://dundee.uong.com
Kevin Gee
Dundee <Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard> wrote in message
news:5A108B927445B330.C178C648...@library-proxy.airnew
s.net...
>>>DesignerD> 1) Nobody will be allowed to PvP steal unless they are a
>>>member of the NPC Thieves Guild. They have an exclusive charter on
>>>this sort of activity.
>>
>>So only guild thieves can steal from players. Can non-guild thieves
>>snoop them (figuratively) to death?
>
>As he said: "BTW--I neglected to cover changes to snooping. Suffice it
>to say that there will be some. Including, for sure, a skill delay,
>and probably an "awareness" flag on victims that increases with
>repeated attempts."
>
>>Huh? How do you tell a macroed thief from a 'legitimate' thief?
>
>Age of the character would be my guess. If you are a GM Stealer and
>the character is only 6 hours old... well...
>
>>So a Guild thief and a Blue PK work in tandem: the Blue attacks the
>>victim, the Guild thief steals his regs so he can't get away. Not
>>sure this helps or not.
>
>It doesn't help much. Most of the time the steal-n-killers weren't
>taking murdercounts anyway. And with stealing being "non aggressive",
>they still won't.
it will help because if you arein the guild and capable of PvP thievery then
you are also not allowed to kill players is my understanding
Dundee
<kg...@columbus.rr.com.no.spam> wrote:
>because first off if you are in the thiefs guild if you steal from someone
>you are pretty much permaflagged
>and if you kill someone trying to get their stuff back you get kicked out of
>the guild with whatever penalities they are planning
No, you don't get kicked out of the guild if you kill someone trying
to get their stuff back. Because "trying to get their stuff back"
means they attack you, and since stealing *still* won't be an
aggressive action, they can't report you for murder when you kill
them.
In other words, this proposal means nothing for the tankthief.
Dundee
<kg...@columbus.rr.com.no.spam> wrote:
>it will help because if you arein the guild and capable of PvP thievery then
>you are also not allowed to kill players is my understanding
You're not allowed to _murder_ players. If they attack you and you
kill them "in self defense", then it won't be murder.
Even if they attack you because you stole from them and you kill them,
it won't be murder.
In other words... tankthieves are pretty much untouched by this
"solution".
Kevin Gee
Dundee <Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard> wrote in message
s.net...
>On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:03:59 -0500, "Kevin Gee"
><kg...@columbus.rr.com.no.spam> wrote:
>
>>because first off if you are in the thiefs guild if you steal from someone
>>you are pretty much permaflagged
>>and if you kill someone trying to get their stuff back you get kicked out
of
>>the guild with whatever penalities they are planning
>
>No, you don't get kicked out of the guild if you kill someone trying
>to get their stuff back. Because "trying to get their stuff back"
>means they attack you, and since stealing *still* won't be an
>aggressive action, they can't report you for murder when you kill
>them.
>
>In other words, this proposal means nothing for the tankthief.
>
Damocles
wrote:
>
>In other words... tankthieves are pretty much untouched by this
>"solution".
Except that a) they have to have high stealing to get in the guild,
which many tank thieves do not, b) there will be armor limitations
applied to stealing and hiding, c) stealing will be a difficulty based
skill so some items will not be stealable anyway without a very high
stealing skill, and stacks can no longer be completely stolen (in
other words, they can't take your 53 pearl in one swoop), and d)
unlike the present system, ANY attempt to steal under any
circumstances means that they are fair game to kill wherever they are,
and they can't just come back and steal again after resurrecting
without being pounded into oblivion, because the flag does not expire.
As soon as you see a thief robbing someone, kill them. If you see them
again, kill them again because they're fair game as long as they're in
this guild.
Most tank thieves will give up the ghost (so to speak) as soon as this
goes through. You have to remember that currently tank thieving is the
path of least resistance for easy kills. That will no longer be the
case with the new system, so almost all of them will either let the
skill atrophy or convert the character into a mule for robbing
monsters or something like that.
Dundee
<kg...@columbus.rr.com.no.spam> wrote:
>RAPH clarify this please
He did:
DesignerD> stealing will still not be an aggressive action. Making it
an agg action was something that many suggested, but which we
ultimately decided not to do because of the overall harshness of the
plan.
Dundee
wrote:
>Except that a) they have to have high stealing to get in the guild,
>which many tank thieves do not,
Some do, some don't...
>b) there will be armor limitations applied to stealing and hiding,
They don't care whether they succeed at stealing or not.
>c) stealing will be a difficulty based skill so some items will not be
>stealable anyway without a very high stealing skill,
See above.
>other words, they can't take your 53 pearl in one swoop), and d)
>unlike the present system, ANY attempt to steal under any
>circumstances means that they are fair game to kill wherever they are,
Scenario: Some guy runs up in bone armor, tries to steal from you
(doesn't matter if he fails stealing), you attack him, his friends
heal him while he kills you.
Scenario: Red guy attacks you. Blue guy heals him. Thief steals
runes or scrolls or whatever from you so you can't escape. If the
blue guy casts so much as paralyze on you, you can report him and the
red fellow. You can't report the thief though.
>Most tank thieves will give up the ghost (so to speak) as soon as this
>goes through.
I think I'll remain a skeptic just a bit longer.
Richard Cortese
>
> On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:18:36 -0500, "Kevin Gee"
> <kg...@columbus.rr.com.no.spam> wrote:
>
> >it will help because if you arein the guild and capable of PvP thievery then
> >you are also not allowed to kill players is my understanding
>
> You're not allowed to _murder_ players. If they attack you and you
> kill them "in self defense", then it won't be murder.
>
> Even if they attack you because you stole from them and you kill them,
> it won't be murder.
>
> "solution".
>
to when it gets to TC & the, "Get the jump on everyone else exploiting
the new patch" crowd comes out of the woodwork.
I got to get an advanced look at almost every technique that became
common place on the regular shards.
Some of the changes I have seen on TC lately have me convinced DD will
have thieves in this game it kills him. Probably near death now<grin>!
I kind of wish he had the time to make a goal statement about what role
he thinks thieves should play in UO. Something akin to, "Houses were
never meant to be 100% secure" statement that at least lets people know
where he is headed with this. But then, I wouldn't want it to detract
from the time he spends getting us there.
Suprises are good too.
Strife
wrote:
>In other words... tankthieves are pretty much untouched by this
>"solution".
I don't think your standard tank-thief will like the idea that he is
perma- even after ressing. Now the anti's don't even have to worry
about checking flags on a known thief, they can just ride up and kill.
No murder count.
Well, we'll see what happens soon enough. At least this gets rid of
the total trash thief char (if they are smart enough to set the min
skills for the guild to 80s).
Strife
Richard Cortese
>
> On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:36:17 GMT, Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard (Dundee)
> wrote:
>
> >In other words... tankthieves are pretty much untouched by this
> >"solution".
>
> I don't think your standard tank-thief will like the idea that he is
> perma- even after ressing. Now the anti's don't even have to worry
> about checking flags on a known thief, they can just ride up and kill.
> No murder count.
about this.
Raph Koster
>>DesignerD> 1) Nobody will be allowed to PvP steal unless they are a
>>member of the NPC Thieves Guild. They have an exclusive charter on
>>this sort of activity.
>Does this mean you won't be able to steal from other players unless in
>the guild?
Yes.
>>DesignerD> 2) There will be strict skill requirements for joining the
>>Thieves Guild. Throwaway and macroed thieves need not apply.
>If you can't steal from other players... Then i assume you are
>required to steal from chests, NPCs, and monsters until you can reach
>a skill level required to enter the guild. I assume higher then 60
>stealing? 60 stealing is pretty easy to get with a throwaway
>character.
Correct. Possibly more than one skill as well, and probably some
minimum time played (no newbies).
>>DesignerD> 3) The Thief Guildmaster hath decreed that since their
>>charter is tenuous indeed, that murder is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN for
>>members of the Guild. Violaters will not be allowed to members, and
>>will be summarily expelled, possibly with very harsh penalties.
>Penalties... Any specifics?
Stat loss, skill loss, confiscation of goods. We'll see.
-Raph Koster
Lead Designer, Ultima Online
Raph Koster
>On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:03:59 -0500, "Kevin Gee"
><kg...@columbus.rr.com.no.spam> wrote:
>>because first off if you are in the thiefs guild if you steal from someone
>>you are pretty much permaflagged
>>and if you kill someone trying to get their stuff back you get kicked out of
>>the guild with whatever penalities they are planning
>No, you don't get kicked out of the guild if you kill someone trying
>to get their stuff back. Because "trying to get their stuff back"
>means they attack you, and since stealing *still* won't be an
>aggressive action, they can't report you for murder when you kill
>them.
>In other words, this proposal means nothing for the tankthief.
We WILL be addressing this. We feel that just the measures in place
will actually make a big difference, but we are also planning to close
this loophole.
Raph Koster
>On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:46:02 -0500, "Kevin Gee"
><kg...@columbus.rr.com.no.spam> wrote:
>>RAPH clarify this please
>He did:
>DesignerD> stealing will still not be an aggressive action. Making it
>an agg action was something that many suggested, but which we
>ultimately decided not to do because of the overall harshness of the
>plan.
The problem with aggressor flag is that it means you just kill
yourself every time someone steals from you, and get to report for
murder. :P Hence the desire not to do it with aggressor flag.
The Philosopher Primus
> DesignerD> OK, so now that he took the blame, here's what we're doing:
Absolutely nothing.
The tankthief provocateur will be totally unchanged.
The town thief will be unchanged.
Detecting a hidden thief in or near your house will not change (using the
Detect Hidden skill to do it if you do not have a high one will only drive
your precious skills down).
If this is the way they are going to nuke thieves, I'd say the other great fix
of the month, about pk, leaves the pk with nothing to worry about either.
The Philosopher Primus
Harping back to some time ago:
ADD A THIEF FLAG.
For fighting you have the aggressor flag, the crim flag, etc. For thieving
you need the thief flag. One for the thief that says he is a thief to such
and so, or one for the victim that says such and so is a thief to him. How
difficult can it be? You already have the system in place, permaflags,
aggressor flags, etc. Just a little reworking for this and you'd have it.
The Philosopher Primus
> >Penalties... Any specifics?
>
> Stat loss, skill loss, confiscation of goods. We'll see.
Change their name to Fluffy.
Dundee
wrote:
>We WILL be addressing this. We feel that just the measures in place
>will actually make a big difference, but we are also planning to close
>this loophole.
Would you believe I'm skeptical?
Dundee
<He...@Fight.SPAM> wrote:
>Damocles wrote:
>
>> DesignerD> OK, so now that he took the blame, here's what we're doing:
>
>Absolutely nothing.
I think that's a bit strong.
>The tankthief provocateur will be totally unchanged.
Now he's saying they have "other" plans to deal with that. No clue as
to what they are, so we can't form an opinion of them.
>The town thief will be unchanged.
There are still town thieves?
Also, they can be attacked in town if you know they're thieves - even
after they die and rez' to clear their crim' flag.
>Detecting a hidden thief in or near your house will not change (using the
>Detect Hidden skill to do it if you do not have a high one will only drive
>your precious skills down).
Yeah, that kinda sucks.
>If this is the way they are going to nuke thieves, I'd say the other great fix
>of the month, about pk, leaves the pk with nothing to worry about either.
And I thought *I* was skeptical...
Jeff Gentry
: The problem with aggressor flag is that it means you just kill
: yourself every time someone steals from you, and get to report for
: murder. :P Hence the desire not to do it with aggressor flag.
So fix suiciding.
Granted, that's tough to do. Make it .... undesirable ...
to suicide somehow.
LD
Jadesfyre
I hope something saves the thief. I always loved using that skill in other
Ultima games.
I think you should rework them, make them important to have around like
cartographers and their treasure maps.
Give them quests where they must find a certain NPC(invulnerable). Using
snooping, lockpicking,detect hidden and stealing, the theif recovers the
treasure. The clues to where this NPC might be, would be on the bulletin
boards.
Just an idea
Ingot Head
Raph Koster wrote in message <78t5f9$9ff$7...@remarQ.com>...
>The problem with aggressor flag is that it means you just kill
>yourself every time someone steals from you, and get to report for
>murder. :P Hence the desire not to do it with aggressor flag.
But doesn't this leave a HUGE hole in the blue PK problem?
Ingot Head
Atlantic
Silverlock
wrote:
>Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard (Dundee) wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:46:02 -0500, "Kevin Gee"
>><kg...@columbus.rr.com.no.spam> wrote:
>
>>>RAPH clarify this please
>
>>He did:
>
>>DesignerD> stealing will still not be an aggressive action. Making it
>>an agg action was something that many suggested, but which we
>>ultimately decided not to do because of the overall harshness of the
>>plan.
>
>The problem with aggressor flag is that it means you just kill
>yourself every time someone steals from you, and get to report for
>murder. :P Hence the desire not to do it with aggressor flag.
>
>-Raph Koster
>Lead Designer, Ultima Online
So your protecting Tank Thieves on the basis that large numbers of
people who get stolen from immediately recall and go suicide to give
them counts? Why not clear the murder flag when accessing the bank
box? That would solve 90% of the problems your assumption is based on
and you could go ahead and do the right thing and make thieving an
aggressive action.
Your assuming that people who want to thieve in combat would prefer to
do that against skilled foes in combat over bothering the heck out of
someone until they attack or run off. Jerks won't care about being in
your thieves guild since all they need to do is stay out of it, wear
plate under a death robe, and steal repeatedly until the victim runs
away or attacks, at which point they kill them anyway. Hence we still
have the same old tank thief. The choice your giving, being able to
steal only in combat, with heavy restrictions, versus being able to be
a tank thief and kill people who get fed up with you harassing them
and get all their loot and the satisfaction of bothering them, is a no
brainer for anybody who gets off on jerky behavior.
--
Silverlock, ICQ 474725
Household Pests? The SW-404 'SpitFire' APRL cleansing system
will remove them, we Guarantee IT! Not responsible for damage
to persons or structures from use of this product.
Dial 1-800-FRY-THEM for info and a home demonstration.
John D. James
> Raph Koster (rko...@origin.ea.com) wrote:
> : The problem with aggressor flag is that it means you just kill
> : yourself every time someone steals from you, and get to report for
> : murder. :P Hence the desire not to do it with aggressor flag.
>
> So fix suiciding.
>
> Granted, that's tough to do. Make it .... undesirable ...
> to suicide somehow.
>
> LD
Oh, this is easy! Make it so that self inflicted damage does quadruple
damage and results in the same stat/skill loss that murderers face
when they die.
This also eliminates the idiots ebolting themselves at the bank.
Oh, this would only work after spell damage in town is turned back on.
--
### Omniversal Dragon -=={UDIC}==- in human form, John D. James
# # d++ e N+ T++ Om-- U1!2!3!5!6!7'!S'!8!A!L!M! u++ uC++ uF uG++
# # uLB+ uA+ nC++ nR++ nH+ nP nI nPT nS++ nT+ wM- wC+ wS- wI++
### wN- o++ oA++ y+ 38 mailto:jo...@premier1.net
# Spam, spam, spam, give me spam! It tastes soooo good!
##### I'll take spam with a cinnabon any day!
#
#
John D. James
> dono...@no.com (Vytor) wrote:
>
> >>DesignerD> 1) Nobody will be allowed to PvP steal unless they are a
> >>member of the NPC Thieves Guild. They have an exclusive charter on
> >>this sort of activity.
>
> >Does this mean you won't be able to steal from other players unless in
> >the guild?
>
> Yes.
>
> >>DesignerD> 2) There will be strict skill requirements for joining the
> >>Thieves Guild. Throwaway and macroed thieves need not apply.
>
> >If you can't steal from other players... Then i assume you are
> >required to steal from chests, NPCs, and monsters until you can reach
> >a skill level required to enter the guild. I assume higher then 60
> >stealing? 60 stealing is pretty easy to get with a throwaway
> >character.
>
> Correct. Possibly more than one skill as well, and probably some
> minimum time played (no newbies).
>
> >>DesignerD> 3) The Thief Guildmaster hath decreed that since their
> >>charter is tenuous indeed, that murder is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN for
> >>members of the Guild. Violaters will not be allowed to members, and
> >>will be summarily expelled, possibly with very harsh penalties.
>
> >Penalties... Any specifics?
>
> Stat loss, skill loss, confiscation of goods. We'll see.
How about instead of a flat "you can't do that" for non-guild-members
stealing from players, you make it so that the next time the non-guilded
thief enters town, they get repeatedly mugged by npc master-level (or
better) thieves? Wandering npc thieves in the wilderness could also
mug them and then use stealth to sneak off.
As you (Raph) has put it, a game mechanic rule is a "law of physics".
What is it about belonging to a guild that allows a character to violate
the laws of physics?
Other than that one thing, I like the plan.
John D. James
> John D. James (jo...@premier1.net) wrote:
> : Oh, this is easy! Make it so that self inflicted damage does quadruple
> : damage and results in the same stat/skill loss that murderers face
> : when they die.
>
> Well, then they fight an animal and allow it to win. Or they have
> a friend kill them and dno't report. etc. :(
> :
> : This also eliminates the idiots ebolting themselves at the bank.
>
> it would be nice if they just could disable resist gain in guard
> zones. That'd also fix the wind bugs :)
>
> LD
Not a problem. As soon as they target any other non-aggressor, they loose
the chance to report a murder.
Damocles
<He...@Fight.SPAM> wrote:
>Damocles wrote:
>
>> DesignerD> OK, so now that he took the blame, here's what we're doing:
>
>Absolutely nothing.
That's ridiculous. The tank thief will take a serious hit from this
and a lot of them will stop doing it. Not only that, but an entire
class of thief will be completely eliminated by this patch. No more
throwaway idiots with 50 stealing and snooping.
Damocles
wrote:
>On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:01:36 GMT, phae...@yahoo.com (Damocles)
>wrote:
>
>>Except that a) they have to have high stealing to get in the guild,
>>which many tank thieves do not,
>
>Some do, some don't...
Those that don't will be out of the loop. That's improvement right
there.
>
>>b) there will be armor limitations applied to stealing and hiding,
>
>They don't care whether they succeed at stealing or not.
If you know they're going to fail every time, who cares what they do?
>
>>c) stealing will be a difficulty based skill so some items will not be
>>stealable anyway without a very high stealing skill,
>
>See above.
Ditto.
>
>>other words, they can't take your 53 pearl in one swoop), and d)
>>unlike the present system, ANY attempt to steal under any
>>circumstances means that they are fair game to kill wherever they are,
>
>Scenario: Some guy runs up in bone armor, tries to steal from you
>(doesn't matter if he fails stealing), you attack him, his friends
>heal him while he kills you.
>
>Scenario: Red guy attacks you. Blue guy heals him. Thief steals
>runes or scrolls or whatever from you so you can't escape. If the
>blue guy casts so much as paralyze on you, you can report him and the
>red fellow. You can't report the thief though.
I have no objection to an aggressor flag on thieving, I just don't
think its absence renders the patch futile. Trust me, the thieves I
know are gnashing their teeth over it.
Kevin Gee
what is the result???
any???
Raph Koster <rko...@origin.ea.com> wrote in message
news:78t5f9$9ff$7...@remarQ.com...
>Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard (Dundee) wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:46:02 -0500, "Kevin Gee"
>><kg...@columbus.rr.com.no.spam> wrote:
>
>>>RAPH clarify this please
>
>>He did:
>
>>DesignerD> stealing will still not be an aggressive action. Making it
>>an agg action was something that many suggested, but which we
>>ultimately decided not to do because of the overall harshness of the
>>plan.
>
>The problem with aggressor flag is that it means you just kill
>yourself every time someone steals from you, and get to report for
>murder. :P Hence the desire not to do it with aggressor flag.
>
Jeff Gentry
Damocles
<jo...@premier1.net> wrote:
>Jeff Gentry wrote:
>
>> Raph Koster (rko...@origin.ea.com) wrote:
>> : The problem with aggressor flag is that it means you just kill
>> : yourself every time someone steals from you, and get to report for
>> : murder. :P Hence the desire not to do it with aggressor flag.
>>
>> So fix suiciding.
>>
>> Granted, that's tough to do. Make it .... undesirable ...
>> to suicide somehow.
>>
>> LD
I suicide on idiots all the time. I once created a newbie character
for the express purpose of suiciding on blue pks who thought I was a
roleplaying mark.
"Hail friends! How art thou this fine day?"
"Fuck u fagit! Kill the rper!"
Corp por
Corp por
I got one guy to turn red when he was at the bank, needless to say he
died immediately and was looted clean. Suiciding is a way of striking
back against the blue pk.
The Philosopher Primus
> As you (Raph) has put it, a game mechanic rule is a "law of physics".
> What is it about belonging to a guild that allows a character to violate
> the laws of physics?
#include standard excuse that this is a game, not reallity
Richard Cortese
>
> >If you can't steal from other players... Then i assume you are
> >required to steal from chests, NPCs, and monsters until you can reach
> >a skill level required to enter the guild. I assume higher then 60
> >stealing? 60 stealing is pretty easy to get with a throwaway
> >character.
>
> Correct. Possibly more than one skill as well, and probably some
> minimum time played (no newbies).
IMO: As it was done on the TC, there was a problem. Spawned items in
dungeons that could only be stolen turned the thief gray. This should be
changed, otherwise the accepted method of getting things out of a
spawned chest may end up becoming: Hide there until a thief takes it,
then kill them & get the loot.
As much as I hate the jerks that are thieves in UO, I can cut them some
slack if they are stealing something no one else can get.
Heck, if you would cut out PCvPC theft, I would even let them steal
books in town w/o getting guard wacked so they have something to do.
flister john m.
grandmaster schmucks out there... they will all join the Thieves Guild, of
course, and now these morons, after all the abuse we have suffered by
them, get a fantastic new skill called "Stealth". I have a hider
(Non-Thief) who would LOVE TO HAVE THE SKILL. But no, my assassin would
have to become a thief to get a skill any normal assassin should have...
grrrr.
OSI: hey you bloopk thief! your antisocial behavior must stop!
DooD: u suk osi!
OSI: to become reputable you must join LB's Thieves Guild...
dOod: I don't wann be a rper, I wanna pk!
OSI: to participate in PvP, you must be in the guild, to be in the guild
you must be a very skilled thief...
DoOd: Me a GM thief already, heh, so's all the other doodz.
OSI: We know that, to organize you into an even more malignant plague
upon the lands, we are forcing all of you to join up in one big
happy guild with hundreds of members!.
DoOd: You mean I will meet more doodz that will help me rok ur azz?
OSI: Certainly.
Dood: OMG! how stoopid can u be?!
OSI: Well, to answer that, we are giving you a great new skill!
DoOd: ?!!
OSI: With great difficulty, you can move whilst hidden!
DoOd: HAHA, I am gonna camp in hellspawn areas and loot the dead who
recall into the middle of lag-death-city!
OSI: We also want to force other players to tolerate your presence, by
putting traps on doors, floors, and chests in dungeons...
dOod: Hehe so I can steal from others while they need my skills to
survive?
OSI: but there is a price... (drums of doom)
Dood: F U OSI! u suk!
OSI: if a character with ridiculously high useless skill forensic eval
tries, he can detect you and expose you for what you are!
dOod: that's it? hehe guess I will make a townkiller forenzisist to pk
my bro's in town!
It should have been:
1. snoop turns you grey if detected
2. you stay grey to the character you violated forever
3. you are grey to any character who has detected your stealing from them
4. you can only steal from top layer of pack
5. you can only steal items up to a certain weight based on skill, dex,
and str.
Now the rest of us are penalized with random traps, chests and doors we
cannot open, a soon-to-be massive organized guild, and thieves who can
move while hidden.
Macro a thief today.
Doom
On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Dundee wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:18:36 -0500, "Kevin Gee"
> <kg...@columbus.rr.com.no.spam> wrote:
>
> >it will help because if you arein the guild and capable of PvP thievery then
> >you are also not allowed to kill players is my understanding
>
> You're not allowed to _murder_ players. If they attack you and you
> kill them "in self defense", then it won't be murder.
>
> Even if they attack you because you stole from them and you kill them,
> it won't be murder.
>
> In other words... tankthieves are pretty much untouched by this
> "solution".
>
Richard Cortese
>
> Jeff Gentry wrote:
>
> > Raph Koster (rko...@origin.ea.com) wrote:
> > : The problem with aggressor flag is that it means you just kill
> > : yourself every time someone steals from you, and get to report for
> > : murder. :P Hence the desire not to do it with aggressor flag.
> >
> > So fix suiciding.
> >
> > Granted, that's tough to do. Make it .... undesirable ...
> > to suicide somehow.
> >
> > LD
>
> damage and results in the same stat/skill loss that murderers face
> when they die.
>
>
having a quiet conversation with another chr.
Sure enough, a chr formerly ebolting themselves walks over to where we
are talking & starts ebolting themselves right next to us.
Not sure if they wanted to listen in on the conversation or show us how
they could cast an ebolt or what a power gamer they were or what...
Anyway, they stood in that small non guard area inside the fence, but
about 4 tiles away from the bank.
~3 ebolts later "Uuuhhaaaggg!!! OoOOooOO".
Kind of neat. This would be especially good if it was a non announced
patch so all in town spell damage works. That & maybe make it so
attacking an elemental in town gets you guard wacked.
I don't see why they have to do all this in front of a bank. Would make
more sense to me if they moved it in front of the healer hut.
Richard Cortese
*IF* it was you behind the chr with your background, knowing what the
role entails, I would have no trouble at all going into a dungeon with a
party that included your thief chr.
If some of the things on TC are implemented on the main servers, it will
almost be pointless to go to a dungeon for anything other then monster
bashing if you don't have a thief in the party.
Unfortunately, I think we are going to find the same jerky boys letting
everyone else do all the work while they rob the monsters, lockpick &
loot the chests, then recall away w/o sharing anything because, "I am a
thief, that is what I do!".
The advantage in the current scheme is since they can be killed w/o
giving out murder counts, they will either have to be very sneaky or
have a ton of friends with them.
Almost a no brainer: If they have friends, they can survive, w/o friends
the old days of PKs blocking the entrances to newbie dungeons will be
back with no murder counts. Being the complete jerk to everyone with no
friends should be an extinct way of playing the game. Doesn't preclude
you have a group of jerks, but at least it is a step in the right
direction.
Raph Koster
>Damocles wrote:
>> DesignerD> OK, so now that he took the blame, here's what we're doing:
>Absolutely nothing.
>The tankthief provocateur will be totally unchanged.
Even the plan as presented at the UOHoC chat reduces their numbers
drastically. Now, i was talking from memory at the chat, not from the
design doc, and hence I missed stuff. But the idea is that we flag the
thief using a new flag, so they are not aggressors per se.
>The town thief will be unchanged.
Considering they are almost extinct already, I don't know that this is
an issue.
>Detecting a hidden thief in or near your house will not change (using the
>Detect Hidden skill to do it if you do not have a high one will only drive
>your precious skills down).
Huh? Automatic success, and it reveals everyone in your house?
Raph Koster
>Raph Koster wrote:
>Harping back to some time ago:
>ADD A THIEF FLAG.
>For fighting you have the aggressor flag, the crim flag, etc. For thieving
>you need the thief flag. One for the thief that says he is a thief to such
>and so, or one for the victim that says such and so is a thief to him. How
>difficult can it be? You already have the system in place, permaflags,
>aggressor flags, etc. Just a little reworking for this and you'd have it.
That's basically what I said we were doing. :)
John Wagner
: And you know what else? Here we have this over exploited abused class of
: grandmaster schmucks out there... they will all join the Thieves Guild, of
: course, and now these morons, after all the abuse we have suffered by
: them, get a fantastic new skill called "Stealth". I have a hider
: (Non-Thief) who would LOVE TO HAVE THE SKILL. But no, my assassin would
: have to become a thief to get a skill any normal assassin should have...
: It should have been:
: 1. snoop turns you grey if detected
: 2. you stay grey to the character you violated forever
: 3. you are grey to any character who has detected your stealing from them
: 4. you can only steal from top layer of pack
: 5. you can only steal items up to a certain weight based on skill, dex,
: and str.
Actually a better solution to all of this problem is to give
stealing the same combat cycle as weapons currently have- do you realize
it is quicker and easier to steal something from a pack nested three deep
than to hit them with a club? Why not make it so you have to stand next
to them just like combat works now before the item is stolen!
John
Lorax
The main question I have is about the thief guild itself. Since it has
minimum requirements and a character needs to wait a week between
joinings, is it going to be treated like other types of guild? There are
some steps going in to protect the identity the character is a thief
(using forensic evaluation to tell if they are a thief). What would
prevent "Thief-Hunters" from forming? A guild could declare war only on
the thieves guild and any character with a warring guild color is a
thief. They can attack them and never get a murder count.
Also, I can see some fun occurring. Picture this, a guild thief wanders
by a large group of fighters by the bank and yells, "Hey! I'm a thief! I
just stole from all of you!". As the horde attacks the helpless thief
committing suicide, he says, "I resign from my guild". "Have at thee
swine!" The thief needs to wait a week to rejoin his guild but now has
ALL the loot of maybe 20 or so fighters. AND since the loot is more than
one person can carry the thief will give some of it away to passing
people who will say, "I honor thee". High karma for dirty trick.
Which actually brings up another interesting point I just thought of.
The anonymity of the thief would be pointless if a long lived thief
character becomes an outcast by loosing karma on every thief activity.
Odds are that any outcast would be a thief to be killed at will. I know
that is how it is now but the penalties of being found out being a thief
seem to be a little different now.
Lorax, Napa