Say goodbye to precasting...
Yuri Gorlinski
The latest In Development update (http://update.uo.com/design_57.html)
says that precasting will be going away soon.
Since it's been gone for a while on SP, I've sort of gotten used to
playing without it... All the same, this is going to cripple mage duels,
and it will take a lot of the strategy out of PvP in general.
From my perspective, it's my warriors on the normal shards who will be
hit the hardest by this, as they often use precast Greater Heal spells
to get in a melee attack or two before getting dumped on by mage types.
It's starting to seem like the dev team wants to get rid of the game's
PvP element entirely. It's been months since Sunsword promised to look
into improving PvP on the normal shards, but the Order/Chaos wars are
still plagued by blue healers and idiots who KOP after initiating an
attack... Now they're giving us yet another PvP nerfing, instead of
addressing the problems which make consensual PvP such an annoying
business.
There's currently a poll up on this at (http://uopolls.drtwister.com/).
Of the 119 respondants (an admittedly small sample), 66% are against the
removal of precasting, while only 34% are in favor of it. Of course,
when has OSI ever given a fuck about what the players want?
Lord Ssu-ma Shih-ka'i, OGD
Austin
wrote:
Precasting allows for an instakill. Without removing precasting, how
would you address this.
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>Precasting allows for an instakill. Without removing precasting, how
>would you address this.
Two spells and a melee attack? That's not an instakill... And it's
also not all that difficult to heal through.
What they ought to be fixing is the bugged arming delay for melee
weapons. If they got that to work as intended, it'd take a lot away
from your so-called instakill.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Austin
wrote:
>007...@direct.ca wrote:
That would too. But look at the number(posted on stratics)
Max damage on Explosion 50 (42 at 100 resist)
Max damage on FS 59 (50 at 100 resist)
Hally base damage 52 (after all damage bonusses 49 * 210% = 103
divided by 2 = 52)
For a POSSIBLE damage of 161 (148 at GM resist)
This is all from stratics, and this is one of the easier combos to
throw.
Eric A. Hall
> Since it's been gone for a while on SP, I've sort of gotten used to
> playing without it...
It's funny that they're calling it a "bug fix." Were they able to "fix
the bug" on SP, or wasn't it a "feature" of SP? I think they were hoping
to fly under the radar. They should have just done it without saying
anything, the same strategy they've used in the past so often.
> All the same, this is going to cripple mage duels,
No it won't. It will change the strategy is all. Mages will start acting
like mages.
There is a lot of inconsistency with pre-casting. Bringing your life
energy and the powers of the universe together and then releasing them
as a magical force shouldn't be something you can pause. Have you ever
watched your character while he's casting? He's working up a sweat with
focusing the powers. It makes no sense that he could bottle it all up
and then release it at some later time. I don't want to bring logic into
it, but pre-casting is just illogical.
And people will adapt. No big deal in my book.
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>> All the same, this is going to cripple mage duels,
>
>No it won't. It will change the strategy is all. Mages will start acting
>like mages.
You don't know what you're talking about. It's almost impossible to
kill an experienced PvPer in a one-on-one mage duel without the use of
precasting, it'll usually just go until one of the combatants runs out
of healing reagants... OGD has done a bit of dueling without precasting
on SP, it's a freaking joke.
>There is a lot of inconsistency with pre-casting. Bringing your life
>energy and the powers of the universe together and then releasing them
>as a magical force shouldn't be something you can pause. Have you ever
>watched your character while he's casting? He's working up a sweat with
>focusing the powers. It makes no sense that he could bottle it all up
>and then release it at some later time. I don't want to bring logic into
>it, but pre-casting is just illogical.
This is a totally irrelevant red herring argument. The concern here
should be for practical game mechanics, not making the game conform to
your idea of how magic ought to work.
>And people will adapt. No big deal in my book.
It's no big deal in your book because you're not a dedicated PvPer.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>That would too. But look at the number(posted on stratics)
>
>Max damage on Explosion 50 (42 at 100 resist)
>Max damage on FS 59 (50 at 100 resist)
>Hally base damage 52 (after all damage bonusses 49 * 210% = 103
>divided by 2 = 52)
>
>For a POSSIBLE damage of 161 (148 at GM resist)
>
>
>This is all from stratics, and this is one of the easier combos to
>throw.
Nobody has GM EI and GM Anatomy, so your max numbers are essentially
impossible. The combo also isn't nearly as easy as you make it out to
be, Flamestrike often fails, and halbreds often miss. You're also
assuming that the victim fails to resist both spells...
I agree that it's a lot of potential damage, but the practical reality
is that it never does that much. And, even without precasting, people
are still going to be able to use that same combo -- they're just going
to run up for the halbred attack after the Flamestrike.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>The thing I don't get is this. People always say that no precasting will
>take the "skill" out of PvP. they also say that all the "skill" is in
>mage fighting, not dex monkeys.
>
>Yet, dex monkeys are generally regarded as the weaker class.
Only because most people don't know how to play them properly.
There's a lot more decision-making involved in using a mage. For me
at least, PvPing with a dex monkey is much easier.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Jeff Gentry
: Two spells and a melee attack? That's not an instakill... And it's
: also not all that difficult to heal through.
It very well *can* be, but generally isn't. Too many dopes I fight these
days have macroed or exploited resist *shrugs*.
but yeah, expl/flamestrike/hally can easily do over 100 damage on a
good roll of the dice.
The thing I don't get is this. People always say that no precasting will
take the "skill" out of PvP. they also say that all the "skill" is in
mage fighting, not dex monkeys.
Yet, dex monkeys are generally regarded as the weaker class.
Wouldn't it show more "skill" to be able to defeat mages as a dex monkey?
What skill is there involved with "pre-cast ebolt, arm weapon, strike,
disarm, cast"?
None greater than anything else IMO.
Most of the kewlio PvPers just like to think they're hot stuff - and
most of them prefer the mage type.
--
Jeff Gentry jes...@rpi.edu gen...@rpi.edu
"You're one of those condescending UNIX users! ...."
"Here's a nickel kid ... get yourself a real computer."
Eric A. Hall
> even without precasting, people are still going to be able to use
> that same combo -- they're just going to run up for the halbred
> attack after the Flamestrike.
That's what I do already. It works just as well most of the time, given
all of your disclaimers (resist, missing the swing, parry, etc).
Eric A. Hall
> You don't know what you're talking about.
Hoookay
> It's almost impossible to kill an experienced PvPer in a one-on-one
> mage duel without the use of precasting
You can still use exp/fs with the halberd without precasting. I
routinely kill with it. You can rely on other things for heals. You can
wear reflect items. There are so many different options available to you
that saying "we can't fight without this one thing" is just inane.
> it'll usually just go until one of the combatants runs out of
> healing reagants...
Then you'll adapt and learn different techniques to either accelerate
the kill or to prolong the defense. You might even learn the value of a
horse! <GASP!>
> The concern here should be for practical game mechanics
Yeah I agree. Alas, the game mechanics do not depend on mages being
rolling killing machines. And there are plenty of ways to kill without
using precasting. I don't use it and have won plenty of battles.
You'll find other ways. You'll adapt. I have faith that your desire to
kill kill kill will help you open new avenues to do so. :)
Austin
wrote:
>007...@direct.ca wrote:
>>
>>That would too. But look at the number(posted on stratics)
>>
>>Max damage on Explosion 50 (42 at 100 resist)
>>Max damage on FS 59 (50 at 100 resist)
>>Hally base damage 52 (after all damage bonusses 49 * 210% = 103
>>divided by 2 = 52)
>>
>>For a POSSIBLE damage of 161 (148 at GM resist)
>>
>>
>>This is all from stratics, and this is one of the easier combos to
>>throw.
>
> Nobody has GM EI and GM Anatomy, so your max numbers are essentially
>impossible. The combo also isn't nearly as easy as you make it out to
>be, Flamestrike often fails, and halbreds often miss. You're also
>assuming that the victim fails to resist both spells...
>
> I agree that it's a lot of potential damage, but the practical reality
>is that it never does that much. And, even without precasting, people
>are still going to be able to use that same combo -- they're just going
>to run up for the halbred attack after the Flamestrike.
>
>
>Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yup but the high damage happens alot more often than youd ever guess,
and it doesnt leave a hope for the recipient. Scenario, you are a
statloss red. You recall into bucs, and before your screen finishes
redrawing you are dead. and i have GM anat and eval :P same character
on napa. Had em about 3 weeks before the big patch. Had GM med too but
let it drop :)
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>You can still use exp/fs with the halberd without precasting. I
>routinely kill with it. You can rely on other things for heals. You can
>wear reflect items. There are so many different options available to you
>that saying "we can't fight without this one thing" is just inane.
I never said that "we can't fight without this one thing", I said that
its removal will cripple one-on-one mage duels. And it will.
And nobody uses reflect items or healing wands in duels. That would
defeat the entire purpose of having a duel...
>Then you'll adapt and learn different techniques to either accelerate
>the kill or to prolong the defense. You might even learn the value of a
>horse! <GASP!>
All of my PvP characters on the normal shards ride horses. Never
use 'em for duels though, it would convey an unfair advantage to
whoever has the faster connection.
>Yeah I agree. Alas, the game mechanics do not depend on mages being
>rolling killing machines. And there are plenty of ways to kill without
>using precasting. I don't use it and have won plenty of battles.
>
>You'll find other ways. You'll adapt. I have faith that your desire to
>kill kill kill will help you open new avenues to do so. :)
I'm afraid you've missed the point entirely.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>Yup but the high damage happens alot more often than youd ever guess,
>and it doesnt leave a hope for the recipient. Scenario, you are a
>statloss red. You recall into bucs, and before your screen finishes
>redrawing you are dead.
This would happen plenty without precasting, Buc's is just one great
big deathtrap for stat-loss reds... Best way to deal with it is to
Recall in a safe distance from the bank, then scout the area at your
leisure. Your scenario has more to do with Recall lag than it does
precasting.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Eric A. Hall
> I'm afraid you've missed the point entirely.
I understand that you want to do mage pvp. What I'm saying is that it's
entirely possible without pre-casting.
The last mage-v-mage duel I watched was won with purples. Both parties
used precasting, but the results would be the same if neither had.
You will adapt.
Jeff Gentry
: It's funny that they're calling it a "bug fix." Were they able to "fix
: the bug" on SP, or wasn't it a "feature" of SP? I think they were hoping
: to fly under the radar. They should have just done it without saying
: anything, the same strategy they've used in the past so often.
My personal theory is that it was an "easy fix", and they did it on SP
because it was the "hard shard", but were holding off putting it to the
normal shards for some reason(s).
What were those reasons? I dunno ...
see how it changed pvp balance?
some otherp roblem came up and this was an easy way to fix it?
*shrugs*
I've heard tell that the "scroll bug" way of magery gain would be
killed by this. Who knows.
Jeff Gentry
: Only because most people don't know how to play them properly.
In other words, they lack the proper skill it takes to use them, no?
Yet, they apparently can PvP just fine w/ a mage. Thus, the'yre
not as skilled as they claim to be.
: There's a lot more decision-making involved in using a mage. For me
: at least, PvPing with a dex monkey is much easier.
I have to admit to being *only* a mage since the inception of UO, so
I've no idea what hoops warriors have had to jump through. But, I've
never really understood claims that being a PvP mage really took all
that much skill except from quick reflexes, a good connection and
a lucky roll of the dice.
Yeah the spell have changes, the tactics have changed - and I admit
that whoever first came up with whatever dominant tactic is dominant
had some brains. But the masses all do the same combo brainlessly.
Its kinda like the program "winnuke" ... the first person that wrote it
had some intelligence and showed "skill". The 29367032467294687394687436
idiots who ran it after that did *not*. Yet they all declared themselves
to be l33t HaX0rZ. Ya see what I'm saying?
Jeff Gentry
: You don't know what you're talking about. It's almost impossible to
: kill an experienced PvPer in a one-on-one mage duel without the use of
I've heard this many times before about other PvP changes. remember
when they said you'd never be able to kill anyone with spell delays?
People still die.
I seem to remember people saying that you'd never be able to kill
anyone when lightning bolt damage fell from 50 to about 10 with a GM mage.
What about when they "nerfed" fireball? Harm wands? Scrolls using
half mana? They were all supposed to kill PvP, and no one would ever
die.
What about when they made it so that you couldn't guzzle a potion w/
a bow armed? Man - PvP really died that day!
Or how about when PvP thievery was effectively removed? People were
screaming that without jacking someone's rune or pearl, people would
never die!
Geeeesh! PvP has apparently been dead for 2 years now :(
People can and have adapted to literally hundreds of changes in PvP balance.
This one is no different - either in intent, nor the whine, nor the
outcome.
Austin
wrote:
>007...@direct.ca wrote:
OK you stand still. Thief pops your pouches and mage paras you. He
casts explode and targets precasts FS off a scroll, and equips hally,
runs up to you hitting with hally at same time explode hits, unequips
and releases FS.
Hows that.
Instakill is bad.
Eric A. Hall
> never really understood claims that being a PvP mage really took all
> that much skill except from quick reflexes, a good connection and
> a lucky roll of the dice.
Yeah. People complain about PvM being boring and predictable. PvP gets
pretty predictable too, especially when its the same fighting style over
and over.
Jeff Gentry
: pretty predictable too, especially when its the same fighting style over
: and over.
Granted I've never been a 100% PvPer, although I've been a "moderate
to heavy" PvPer since Beta. And granted I haven't been "elite" for
a little less than 2 years now. But, I still have been involved enough
to witness what goes on, even if I can't necessarily ever seem to get
it right :)
And I tell ya, PvP doesn't really seem to be all that complex either -
just like you said. It is a more complex system than PvM, but it isn't
all that much. Its mainly about learning the "in moves" and then doing them.
The *real* elite can go beyond that, but that's the exception, not the
rule. Most people these days will exp/eb|fs/hally and if that doesn't
work, they leave.
The problem is ego. No one minds that it doesn't take strategy to beat
an AI. But they want to feel special that they roxed another human.
they *must* hvae skill, ya know?
I fully admit that when I was "good" at PvP way back in the day, it
wasn't because I had any special skills. I had an extremely fast
connection back in a day when very few people had access to anything
beyond 56k (if that), I had powergamed up a char extremely fast
due to my knowledge from beta, and spent a lot of time researching
"new moves" (at that time, *every* patch changed PvP radically).
That's all it really took.
Otara
wrote:
>007...@direct.ca wrote:
>>
>>Precasting allows for an instakill. Without removing precasting, how
>>would you address this.
>
> Two spells and a melee attack? That's not an instakill... And it's
>also not all that difficult to heal through.
Uh - for you? This is pretty rough stuff for your average non-PvPer.
> What they ought to be fixing is the bugged arming delay for melee
>weapons. If they got that to work as intended, it'd take a lot away
>from your so-called instakill.
I think what they need to do is stop trying to make one system that
meets the needs of two quite distinct groups.
Otara
Jeff Gentry
: I have never made it past the first level of any dungeon, (not even on
: test center), without being PK'ed. I don't know how hard the monsters
: are, I have never been given a chance to find out.
In contrast, I know many people who say they haven't seen a PK (Ie a
*real* PK ... not talking about the non-perma reds that just get
attacked) in a while.
Takes all kinds ....
Jeff Gentry
: All I can say to that is, they are very damn lucky, never go to dungeons
: or any monster spawn areas, or they are liars. We have some of all three
: categories here in this news group. :P
I'm in dungeons and "hot spots" every night pretty much, and I actually
*see* a stat loss red maybe once or twice a week (obviou i'm actually
seeing a "gropu of stat loss reds" in this case). I see evidence
that they came through maybe 3-4 times a week. I hear about them
going through an area about 3-4 times a week.
And this is as an anti guild with some pretty long tendrils on the
info-gathering scene (including "spies" in PK guilds who keep us
informed of where they're going to be)
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>>In contrast, I know many people who say they haven't seen a PK (Ie a
>>*real* PK ... not talking about the non-perma reds that just get
>>attacked) in a while.
>>
>>Takes all kinds ....
>or any monster spawn areas, or they are liars. We have some of all three
>categories here in this news group. :P
This morning I ran from one end of Deceit to the other, sparred a few
skeletal knights to build Parrying, killed a few liches for ID wands...
Didn't see a single PK. That was on Atlantic.
Last night I did pretty much the same on Sonoma, hit every major spawn
point in the dungeon, didn't see a single PK...
Your claims of dungeons overflowing with PKs are greatly exaggerated.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>OK you stand still. Thief pops your pouches and mage paras you. He
>casts explode and targets precasts FS off a scroll, and equips hally,
>runs up to you hitting with hally at same time explode hits, unequips
>and releases FS.
>Hows that.
>Instakill is bad.
I routinely heal through combos like that. You can use potions and
bandages while paralyzed, armor will soak up a lot of the halbred damage,
and Flamestrike is actually pretty weak when cast off a scroll.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>: Only because most people don't know how to play them properly.
>
>In other words, they lack the proper skill it takes to use them, no?
>
>Yet, they apparently can PvP just fine w/ a mage. Thus, the'yre
>not as skilled as they claim to be.
Most of the people who don't know how to use dex monkeys don't know
how to use mages either.
>I have to admit to being *only* a mage since the inception of UO, so
>I've no idea what hoops warriors have had to jump through. But, I've
>never really understood claims that being a PvP mage really took all
>that much skill except from quick reflexes, a good connection and
>a lucky roll of the dice.
>
>Yeah the spell have changes, the tactics have changed - and I admit
>that whoever first came up with whatever dominant tactic is dominant
>had some brains. But the masses all do the same combo brainlessly.
There's a lot more to playing a PvP mage than simply using
para-explode-ebolt combos. That stuff might work okay on miners and
other non-combatants, but it won't do the job against an experienced
PvPer.
>Its kinda like the program "winnuke" ... the first person that wrote it
>had some intelligence and showed "skill". The 29367032467294687394687436
>idiots who ran it after that did *not*. Yet they all declared themselves
> to be l33t HaX0rZ. Ya see what I'm saying?
I agree that there are a lot of morons out there, and I agree that
PvPing in UO doesn't require any sort of divine skill handed down from
the heavens. But it's been my experience that PvPing with a warrior is
much easier than PvPing with a mage. Warriors basically just need to
target and then chase their opponents around, using bandages, potions,
and trapped chests when appropriate. There's a lot more decision-making
involved in magery, choosing your spells, conserving your mana, etc.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Austin
wrote:
>007...@direct.ca wrote:
FS is not weak off a scroll.
Cant apply a bandage when you are at full life.
Drinking a potion will not save your life if you take optmum damage
from this. Even with 100 resist, optimum damage is still over 140.
And avg damage is in the 80 range.
It was broken. It is being fixed.
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>> Two spells and a melee attack? That's not an instakill... And it's
>>also not all that difficult to heal through.
>
>Uh - for you? This is pretty rough stuff for your average non-PvPer.
Well, the non-PvPer is going to die in this situation regardless of
the use of precasting.
>I think what they need to do is stop trying to make one system that
>meets the needs of two quite distinct groups.
I'm in complete agreement.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>I understand that you want to do mage pvp. What I'm saying is that it's
>entirely possible without pre-casting.
>
>The last mage-v-mage duel I watched was won with purples. Both parties
>used precasting, but the results would be the same if neither had.
>
>You will adapt.
My friends and I don't use potions in one-on-one mage duels. We don't
use anything which puts the emphasis on resources instead of player
skills.
Again, this has nothing to do with adapting. I've been playing a mage
without precasting on SP for the past several months now. It makes no
difference in the big group fights, but it's totally wrecked dueling.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
It is if you have decent Resist. Spells cast from scrolls don't get
an EI bonus.
>Cant apply a bandage when you are at full life.
You can if you chug a Greater Strength potion first... Like I've
been saying elsewhere in the thread, most people don't know how to play
warriors properly.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>People can and have adapted to literally hundreds of changes in PvP balance.
>This one is no different - either in intent, nor the whine, nor the
>outcome.
Well Jeff, I've already seen how this stuff works on SP, and I can
tell you with absolute certainty that taking out precasting totally
ruins mage duels.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Austin
wrote:
>007...@direct.ca wrote:
>>
>>FS is not weak off a scroll.
>
> It is if you have decent Resist. Spells cast from scrolls don't get
>an EI bonus.
Where did you get this snippet from. According to Rune this isnt true.
Jeff Gentry
: Most of the people who don't know how to use dex monkeys don't know
: how to use mages either.
Well yeah, I'd agree. I'd also go as boldly as to say at least 90% of
the "elite PvPers", aren't. They may win a lot of fights ... but they
are not "intelligent", they don't use "strategy", and they have no
more "skeelz" than the next "elite PvPer". The really good PvPers are
the *real* few people who go above and beyond that. The problem is,
just about every hardcore PvP I konw would put themselves (and their
friends) in that latter category.
I'd also put forth that the bulk of the pro-precasting whining going on
is being done by this crowd as well. Thus showing that they're really
upset because their "easy combo" is being taken away, not because it takes
the "skill out of combat".
: There's a lot more to playing a PvP mage than simply using
: para-explode-ebolt combos. That stuff might work okay on miners and
: other non-combatants, but it won't do the job against an experienced
: PvPer.
Thing is, this is 99% of the fighting I see amoungst PvPers as well.
explode/ebolt/hally ... maybe a des mani or a curse thrown in.
maybe a FS or whatever. Not a whole hell of a lot of variety these days.
Which is why I think the whole "you need precast ... precast is where
all the skill & strategy is" arguement is crap.
: and trapped chests when appropriate. There's a lot more decision-making
: involved in magery, choosing your spells, conserving your mana, etc.
But considering that out of 64 spells, only about 3-4 see heavy combat
use, with another 3-4 seeing moderate combat use (not including
kal ort por hehehe) -> there isn't a *whole* lot of choice to make.
Yeah, *offense* as a warrior is easier ... but I have a lot more respect
for the warrior who hangs in there against a mage than vice versa.
To put it into perspective, some townfighter type attacked me out of
town the other day (I was grey). If it weren't for me being a bumbling
fool (I tripped up on some brambles, she got around the corner of a house
blocking LOS) - she was dead in about 10 seconds. And I suck at PvP these
days.
Jeff Gentry
: Last night I did pretty much the same on Sonoma, hit every major spawn
: point in the dungeon, didn't see a single PK...
While I agree with the point of your message (claims exagerated) ...
to play devil's advocate here ...
Last night my guild was out in larger numbers than normal and was out
scouting for PKs. Not only were there no PKs, but there just weren't
that many people *at all* online (LS) .... so it might just have been
a shard demographic thing. No one on - no one to PK. Thus, no PKs.
So, we declared war on some guild we dislike and that provided much
more excitment then I was particularly geared up for :P
Jeff Gentry
: Well Jeff, I've already seen how this stuff works on SP, and I can
: tell you with absolute certainty that taking out precasting totally
: ruins mage duels.
Give it some time. Now that it'll beh itting the main shards you'll
have a lot more heads being put together to think of the "next best
thing". It might not even be magery - although I can think of only
one period where the mage wasn't the unquestionably dominant class.
BTW ... "casting delay" was said to, with absolute certainty ruined
mage duels as well ya know. So I guess precasting can ruin it any more :(
BTW - so did the hiding changes. So did the whole archer/no ption thing.
Etc.
They all "ruined PvP", "ruined duels", etc.
I don't proclaim to be even a "good" PvPer. I just *started* to use
precasting recently because I never agreed with its use (I held out
for a while) ... and I don't often use it as it is. Yet, people *do*
die by my hand, even in 1 on 1s.
Jeff Gentry
: My friends and I don't use potions in one-on-one mage duels. We don't
: use anything which puts the emphasis on resources instead of player
: skills.
So I take it you play from the exact same machines on the exact same
connections then? Oh - and you ensure that OSI seeds your random number
generators exactly?
I didn't think so.
That's a massive percentage of the outcome of fights between equal skilled
combatants anyhow.
Kiril Threndor
>I have never made it past the first level of any dungeon, (not even on
>test center), without being PK'ed. I don't know how hard the monsters
>are, I have never been given a chance to find out.
>
>
Come with us Ice.
My Guild goes into most dungeons on weekends and we rarely have PK
problems. There is usually at least six of us and most reds that see us
just leave us alone or go away quickly. We don't attack the reds unless
attacked 1st. Last weekend we went through Shame, Deceit, Wrong and
Covetous.
We were only attacked twice and both times the PK's died. We have a
lovely little team plan that has worked really well both times.
Let me know if you fancy it but it will probably be after the New Year
now.
Kiril.
--
________________________________________________
Kiril Threndor
A swordsman, just not a very good one!
Be true, Unbeliever
Answer the call.
Jeff Gentry
: Well Jeff, I've already seen how this stuff works on SP, and I can
: tell you with absolute certainty that taking out precasting totally
: ruins mage duels.
By the by ... I happened to think today how precasting hasn't been
around forever. It might have been possible all the way back
when, I dunno - but people didn't start doing it until relatively
recently in UO history. How did people get by? Was PvP pre-ruined?
then they made it "okay" by putting in precasting?
I used to duel heavily and that was long before precasting was ever
a glimmer in a would-be PvPers eye. *shrugs*
Jeff Gentry
: problems. There is usually at least six of us and most reds that see us
: just leave us alone or go away quickly. We don't attack the reds unless
: attacked 1st. Last weekend we went through Shame, Deceit, Wrong and
Its likely that they are not stat-loss reds. This variety of red
generally only "fights back" and doesn't really initate fights any
more than a blue would. Stat-loss reds would tend to recall if they
weren't interested in fighting ... not just walk away.
Eric A. Hall
> My friends and I don't use potions in one-on-one mage duels. We
> don't use anything which puts the emphasis on resources instead
> of player skills.
I'm not being facetious when I ask this: Do you consider magic weapons
to be an emphasis on resources? Do you not use weaps with accuracy and
damage bonuses? Do you consider a halberd to be a better resource than a
katana or must both parties use the same weapon?
From a perspective of "I challenge thee, and no looting!" duels, the
loss of precasting will suck. For the other 99% of players, its a win or
makes no difference.
BTW, we don't have that many of the honorable dueling types running
around on Catskills. The last duel I was in with my mage was against a
red looter. His profile read "if you died at Terathon Keep I probably
looted you." He fights the near-dead and the just-rezzed, and gets no
respect or mercy. Of course I used reflect items and purples. The last
"honorable" duel I was in was with my melee fighter. It was a "no
killing and no looting" duel. I won the first round, with my opponent
calling Uncle. He won the second but didn't stop, and looted my corpse.
He will die the next time I see him outside of town.
This is only somewhat irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I don't need
to use precasting when so many other things work better and I still win
often. In an honorable duel, it would suck not to have it, but it won't
matter for the duels I find myself getting into.
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>Last night my guild was out in larger numbers than normal and was out
>scouting for PKs. Not only were there no PKs, but there just weren't
>that many people *at all* online (LS) .... so it might just have been
>a shard demographic thing. No one on - no one to PK. Thus, no PKs.
I saw plenty of blue folks in Deceit on Atlantic and Sonoma. Saw a
couple of guys using energy vortexes from the ledge to kill Lich Lords,
was tempted to NPK 'em but my heart wasn't in it...
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>> It is if you have decent Resist. Spells cast from scrolls don't get
>>an EI bonus.
>
>Where did you get this snippet from. According to Rune this isnt true.
I could be mistaken then. Spells cast from scrolls definitely do
less damage than normal spells though...
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>Well yeah, I'd agree. I'd also go as boldly as to say at least 90% of
>the "elite PvPers", aren't. They may win a lot of fights ... but they
>are not "intelligent", they don't use "strategy", and they have no
>more "skeelz" than the next "elite PvPer". The really good PvPers are
>the *real* few people who go above and beyond that. The problem is,
>just about every hardcore PvP I konw would put themselves (and their
>friends) in that latter category.
Now we could be getting into the area of shard differences...
I haven't spent all that much time on LS, but from the limited action
I've seen in the Order/Chaos wars it seems like the competition isn't
quite as intense as on Sonoma. Maybe I just haven't bumped into LS'
elite PvPers yet... But what I have seen has been fairly underwhelming
compared to the hardcore PvP scene on Sonoma.
>Thing is, this is 99% of the fighting I see amoungst PvPers as well.
>explode/ebolt/hally ... maybe a des mani or a curse thrown in.
>maybe a FS or whatever. Not a whole hell of a lot of variety these days.
>Which is why I think the whole "you need precast ... precast is where
>all the skill & strategy is" arguement is crap.
Removing precasting will only further limit the variety.
>But considering that out of 64 spells, only about 3-4 see heavy combat
>use, with another 3-4 seeing moderate combat use (not including
>kal ort por hehehe) -> there isn't a *whole* lot of choice to make.
My mages routinely use the following spells for PvP: Harm, Curse,
Poison, Bless, Protection, Paralyze, E-bolt, Explosion, Heal, Greater
Heal, Teleport, and, uhm, Reactive Armor. Occassionally I'll summon
a daemon, or Dispel someone else's. That's a lot of choices.
>To put it into perspective, some townfighter type attacked me out of
>town the other day (I was grey). If it weren't for me being a bumbling
>fool (I tripped up on some brambles, she got around the corner of a house
>blocking LOS) - she was dead in about 10 seconds. And I suck at PvP these
>days.
So maybe she sucks worse?
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>So I take it you play from the exact same machines on the exact same
>connections then? Oh - and you ensure that OSI seeds your random number
>generators exactly?
Now you're just being facetious.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>I'm not being facetious when I ask this: Do you consider magic weapons
>to be an emphasis on resources? Do you not use weaps with accuracy and
>damage bonuses? Do you consider a halberd to be a better resource than a
>katana or must both parties use the same weapon?
We have fairly strict rules for our friendly duels -- no magic items,
no potions, no poisoned blades, no Paralyze, no Mana Drain, and, hmmm,
no looting. Think that's everything... GM weapons and armor are fine.
Combatants are not required to use the same weapons.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>> Well, the non-PvPer is going to die in this situation regardless of
>>the use of precasting.
>
It would be an awfully sure thing anyway. And "one hit combo" is
an oxymoron. 8)
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Jeff Gentry
: I saw plenty of blue folks in Deceit on Atlantic and Sonoma. Saw a
: couple of guys using energy vortexes from the ledge to kill Lich Lords,
: was tempted to NPK 'em but my heart wasn't in it...
By late evening, the *real* hot spots were "populated" but not nearly
as much as normal. For isntance, in deceit - LL room had about 3/4
contingent, and the fucking lame ass "skill wall" was populated. But
the rest was pretty empty.
Greywind
Kiril Threndor wrote:
>
> >
> >I have never made it past the first level of any dungeon, (not even on
> >test center), without being PK'ed. I don't know how hard the monsters
> >are, I have never been given a chance to find out.
> >
> >Ice,
> >
>
> Come with us Ice.
>
> My Guild goes into most dungeons on weekends and we rarely have PK
> problems. There is usually at least six of us and most reds that see us
> just leave us alone or go away quickly. We don't attack the reds unless
> attacked 1st. Last weekend we went through Shame, Deceit, Wrong and
> Covetous.
>
> We were only attacked twice and both times the PK's died. We have a
> lovely little team plan that has worked really well both times.
>
> Let me know if you fancy it but it will probably be after the New Year
> now.
>
You know, I think some people are just cursed this way.
I for instance have a 100% success rate on being attacked
while in deciet. Most places I go, I'll run into some
asshole who attacks me.
Other people have to spend days looking for the type
of action I get just from walking around the shard.
Ice might be the same way.
Greywind
Jeff Gentry wrote:
>
> Yuri Gorlinski (yg...@mojo.calyx.net) wrote:
> : I saw plenty of blue folks in Deceit on Atlantic and Sonoma. Saw a
> : couple of guys using energy vortexes from the ledge to kill Lich Lords,
> : was tempted to NPK 'em but my heart wasn't in it...
>
> By late evening, the *real* hot spots were "populated" but not nearly
> as much as normal. For isntance, in deceit - LL room had about 3/4
> contingent, and the fucking lame ass "skill wall" was populated. But
> the rest was pretty empty.
>
Where and what is this "skill wall" you are talking
about? I've always wanted to just plop ev's in the ll
room, but I think a guild event to simple "take over"
the room will suffice.
Jeff Gentry
: elite PvPers yet... But what I have seen has been fairly underwhelming
: compared to the hardcore PvP scene on Sonoma.
10 bucks says if I went to Sonoma, I wouldn't be all that impressed
with their "elite skeelz" either. I'd wager it'd be the same half dozen
tactics used over and over and over and over and over again.
: Removing precasting will only further limit the variety.
Hmmm. So what did you do *before* precasting?
: My mages routinely use the following spells for PvP: Harm, Curse,
: Poison, Bless, Protection, Paralyze, E-bolt, Explosion, Heal, Greater
: Heal, Teleport, and, uhm, Reactive Armor. Occassionally I'll summon
: a daemon, or Dispel someone else's. That's a lot of choices.
Things I see in *every fight*:
Greater Heal
Ebolt
Explosion
Flamestrike
(I won't count magic arrow ... i see it a lot but only as "opening shot')
Things I see in most fights:
Paralyze
Things I see in some fights (say <50%):
Heal
Curse
Weaken
Things I see in very few fights (<10%):
Poison
Bless
Reactive Armor
: So maybe she sucks worse?
Actually, more than anything I think i had a lucky roll of the dice.
Had some brutal hits in on her. But yeah, she wasn't all that "elite"
herself. I usually poison my weapons, but with greater poison instead
of deadly. Much cheaper, and most people don't take the time to notice
the difference - i'm counting on tehir cure to slow them down that brief
second.
This person went around yelling "CURE! CURE! CURE!" even tho it became
painfully obvious real fast that she wasn't taking much damage.
Jeff Gentry
: We have fairly strict rules for our friendly duels -- no magic items,
: no potions, no poisoned blades, no Paralyze, no Mana Drain, and, hmmm,
: no looting. Think that's everything... GM weapons and armor are fine.
: Combatants are not required to use the same weapons.
The funny thing is ... way back in teh day I was big on dueling. Had
similar rules I would fight under than what you said. Every kewlio
and their brother would "lol", "ur gay", "newbie" me when I would propose
them, instructing me that real pvpers use those things.
These are the same people (literally in serveral cases) whining now how
precast will ruin duels for them. (And since using the above stuff brings
*back* thought into fighting, they either are just lying or also now
use those rules)
Jeff Gentry
: Now you're just being facetious.
No, I'm quite serious. If you want a *true* test of "PvP skill" you need
all that crap too. You know as well as I do that amoungst people of similar
skill - the largest factor is machine speed, connection speed & luck.
Austin
wrote:
>007...@direct.ca wrote:
Ill get the skinny tonight. It could be that they are more easily
resistable (ie Resistable 2 levels lower as well) but ive never
noticed it, as not alot of people have super high resist so eval adds
a big enough punch to get through it :).
Austin
>Yuri Gorlinski (yg...@mojo.calyx.net) wrote:
>: Well Jeff, I've already seen how this stuff works on SP, and I can
>: tell you with absolute certainty that taking out precasting totally
>: ruins mage duels.
>
>By the by ... I happened to think today how precasting hasn't been
>around forever. It might have been possible all the way back
>when, I dunno - but people didn't start doing it until relatively
>recently in UO history. How did people get by? Was PvP pre-ruined?
>then they made it "okay" by putting in precasting?
>
>I used to duel heavily and that was long before precasting was ever
>a glimmer in a would-be PvPers eye. *shrugs*
To be fair, i used to precast back in the heavy xbow days. Right after
the patch that made other weapons more viable it got very deadly.
Otara
wrote:
>sp...@spammity.com.au wrote:
>>
>>> Two spells and a melee attack? That's not an instakill... And it's
>>>also not all that difficult to heal through.
>>
>>Uh - for you? This is pretty rough stuff for your average non-PvPer.
>
> Well, the non-PvPer is going to die in this situation regardless of
>the use of precasting.
One hit combo's make it an awfully sure thing tho.
>>I think what they need to do is stop trying to make one system that
>>meets the needs of two quite distinct groups.
>
> I'm in complete agreement.
Only problems is that it doesnt seem to be aesthetically pleasing to
the designers.
Otara
Otara
wrote:
>sp...@spammity.com.au wrote:
>>
>>> Well, the non-PvPer is going to die in this situation regardless of
>>>the use of precasting.
>>
>>One hit combo's make it an awfully sure thing tho.
>
>an oxymoron. 8)
Welll - its worked on me more than older strategies used to with
individuals.
I mean if it wasnt better than the old combo's, they
would still be getting used wouldnt they?
I guess the one hit bit really applies to the magic part where they
essentially hit simultaneously. Never liked that.
Otara
Jeff Gentry
: To be fair, i used to precast back in the heavy xbow days. Right after
: the patch that made other weapons more viable it got very deadly.
I remember it existing then but many didn't use it.
my PvP heyday was already in its sundown phase by archeyr days :)
Kiril Threndor
>I for instance have a 100% success rate on being attacked
>while in deciet. Most places I go, I'll run into some
>asshole who attacks me.
>
>Other people have to spend days looking for the type
>of action I get just from walking around the shard.
>
>Ice might be the same way.
I used to think exactly the same, everywhere I went I would bump into a
PK or 3, I had one spell of being PKed a couple of times a night but it
is nowhere near as bad now.
We went to Covetous last night, I wanted to see if I could pick those 3
crates now that I am 97.5 locks, still no luck. Six of us went in and
didn't see anybody at all never mind PK's. It was pretty hairy in the
second level harpy room though, I have never seen as many monsters in
one spot!
I see PK's in Deceit most times though but they leave us alone mostly.
Kiril Threndor
>Thanks, I may take you up on that. Could I bring Ceria with me?
>She is one of our ng lurkers and my house mate on Europa and
>Atlantic.
>
>I take it you are on Europa? If your e-mail address is a good
>one I will send you my ICQ number.
>
>Thanks much,
>
>Ice,
>
Sure, the more the merrier and safety in numbers. I got you mail so when
I get back from Xmas responsibilities (extended and very spread out
family!), I'll look you up and we'll arrange something.
Kiril.
Kiril Threndor
>generally only "fights back" and doesn't really initate fights any
>more than a blue would. Stat-loss reds would tend to recall if they
>weren't interested in fighting ... not just walk away.
>
>
Agreed, I have changed my opinion some about PK's since my short time in
UO. When starting I never ventured into dungeons, just visited the
topside spawn places. The reds at these tend to be the more lowlife
type. Mainly because they know only trades and newbie types go to orc
valley and places like that. The Dungeon reds are a lot more choosy in
who they attack and often seem to just ride around waiting to be
attacked, which always happens.
We have a strict no attack policy in my Guild, which I did find hard to
stick to at first but It works now.
Richard Cortese
news:3862AF91...@home.com...
>
>
> Kiril Threndor wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >I have never made it past the first level of any dungeon, (not even on
> > >test center), without being PK'ed. I don't know how hard the monsters
> > >are, I have never been given a chance to find out.
> > >
> > >Ice,
> > >
> >
> > Come with us Ice.
> >
> > My Guild goes into most dungeons on weekends and we rarely have PK
> > problems. There is usually at least six of us and most reds that see us
> > just leave us alone or go away quickly. We don't attack the reds unless
> > attacked 1st. Last weekend we went through Shame, Deceit, Wrong and
> > Covetous.
> >
> > We were only attacked twice and both times the PK's died. We have a
> > lovely little team plan that has worked really well both times.
> >
> > Let me know if you fancy it but it will probably be after the New Year
> > now.
> >
> I for instance have a 100% success rate on being attacked
> while in deciet. Most places I go, I'll run into some
> asshole who attacks me.
>
> Other people have to spend days looking for the type
> of action I get just from walking around the shard.
>
> Ice might be the same way.
completely dependant upon the position it is being viewed from.
Jeff's observations, I think it was a couple of stat loss reds a week, is
dead nuts on in my experience. I used to approximate PK attacks at 1 every
3-6 hours of game play depending on where you were. I would guess that
number is down to as low as an attack every 10 hours now. Seems just a bit
low IMO.
But ask Ice outright, "Would you like being attacked once every 10 hours of
game play?" and I think I can predict her response, it won't be that isn't
enough.
Greywind
heeh.. yeah. Well, me and 3 other guildmates were in
the Terathon Fort last night, by where there stairs are
going down to the bottom of the place.
We were fighting 2-3 warriors at the time with 2-3 drones
watching from a corner, when 2 reds appear on allnames.
These guys moved like the wind. Well, it was rather
funny to see them clearing out the whole fort area. All
the "bad-ass" blues KOP'd away. But we'd decided we were
staying and fighting. 4-2 is pretty good numbers for us
but we had the problem of having to get rid of the warriors
we were fighting.
The reds eventually made it to our room, just as we off'd
the last warrior. One of our members survived the mana
dump, and after that they ran for thier lives. We killed
devastator and took his head.. no bounty :( The funny thing
was that devastator tried to run away but 2 drones blocked his
path. with me and another guy with kryss's nailing him, and
the drones pinching away, he never stood a chance..
Anyways, I think the level of red pking is ok. Atleast
from what I've seen on Baja. I'd like some option for
handling blooo looooters and Balron leaders/blockers..
Quaestor
> I used to approximate PK attacks at 1 every
> 3-6 hours of game play depending on where you were. I would guess that
> number is down to as low as an attack every 10 hours now. Seems just a bit
> low IMO.
If you want to be attacked more, I can definitely point you in the right
direction.
It's all about where you go. I can play for days, weeks, without being
attacked, in the woods, dungeons, whatever. Then when I get a wild hair and
decide it's time to feed the dragons, I can find jerks in a few minutes. I know
where they are. Normally I avoid those places.
Peaceful players will develop a game style that avoids contact with jerks.
Those who just don't want to be bothered can play without it, for the most
part. This is not to say they are free of danger, only that encounters in
certain localities are rare, and much more common in others.
Of course, being escorted by a pet that can rip their guts out has something to
do with it, but still, the incidence of encounters with jerks can be influenced
by frequenting the right areas.
Unfortunately, the jerks hang out in the best areas. I have grown tired of
mining gems by killing earths. I would love to mine magic items by killing
liches. But where there are liches there are multiple jerks, and always a few
who know how to kill dragons. So I seldom see liches.
> But ask Ice outright, "Would you like being attacked once every 10 hours of
> game play?" and I think I can predict her response, it won't be that isn't
> enough.
Mine would be that I prefer pvp combat when I want it, not whenever some jerk
wants it. I have figured out one of the reason I'm playing less and less, that
being that I just get tired (battle fatigue) of constantly being under threat,
not only from the jerks, but the damned game crashing all the time (it's not so
simple when you have valuable pets to keep). I would prefer to play the game
most of the time in conditions where I do not have to worry about jerks (or
crashes), and be able to go get a pvp fight when I feel like it. In other
words, yes to pvp, but NO pkING.
But that's not the legacy of Raph.
Quaestor
> When starting I never ventured into dungeons, just visited the topside
> spawn places. The reds at these tend to be the more lowlife type. Mainly
> because they know only trades and newbie types go to orc valley and places
> like that.
It is amazing to see them scatter like roaches when I ride into that area
with a white wyrm. Or any dragon. They may not even know the difference,
but I guess shear size is enough to convince them. By the time they know
how to fight a dragon they are ready for dungeons, I guess.
> The Dungeon reds are a lot more choosy in who they attack and often seem
> to just ride around waiting to be attacked, which always happens.
Dungeon reds are clearly the Zil (better make of Russian car) of jerks.
Three classes of them seem to exist, those who are choosey about whom they
hit because they want max benefit for one murder count because they have
hopes of someday returning to blue; those who are choosey about whom they
hit because they do not want their asses handed to them; and those who are
not choosey and just attack everyone. But they all (but for the occasional
neophyte dungeon red) know better how to deal with dragons, and most can
toss the EV that is the critical difference. Against them, the quickness of
a drake or the magic power of a white wyrm are best, but numbers of them
still present problems.
> We have a strict no attack policy in my Guild, which I did find hard to
> stick to at first but It works now.
I usually do not attack either, when hunting jerks. They are usually jerk
enough to attack me. That's why one of the most important spells I have is
Invisibility. You see, jerks don't usually attack if they see the dragon.
Still, the game has gotten tiresome, including jerk-killing, by dragon or
any other means. I'm beginning to think that UOQuake has run its course.
Damocles
wrote:
>gen...@rpi.edu wrote:
>>
>>People can and have adapted to literally hundreds of changes in PvP balance.
>>This one is no different - either in intent, nor the whine, nor the
>>outcome.
>
> Well Jeff, I've already seen how this stuff works on SP, and I can
>tell you with absolute certainty that taking out precasting totally
>ruins mage duels.
>
Bah, mage duels are boring as hell. I preferred the days when
earthquake spells cleared out rooms and a single meteor swarm would
kill anyone.
Seriously, most of the people doing the dueling are scum of the earth.
They go rabbiting on about "honor" and scream and yell if you disrupt
their fun (which I always do, snooping, stealing from the grey one,
etc.) but they don't understand how it might apply if they gang bang
some poor schmuck who misclicked on a tame animal.
I believe in killing idiots, preferably from behind when they least
expect it. Dueling is silly to me...guess I'm too old school for it.
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>Anyways, I think the level of red pking is ok. Atleast
>from what I've seen on Baja. I'd like some option for
>handling blooo looooters and Balron leaders/blockers..
Kill them.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>10 bucks says if I went to Sonoma, I wouldn't be all that impressed
>with their "elite skeelz" either. I'd wager it'd be the same half dozen
>tactics used over and over and over and over and over again.
No doubt, there are the usual cookie-cutter types, but there are also
some folks who've found interesting angles, different sorts of hybrid
PvP characters and styles... One of the player cities on Sonoma ran
weekly Fight Night tournaments for over a year, so there are a lot of
folks with a lot of dueling experience. There are always two or three
heavyweight Order/Chaos guilds with 10-20 regulars, and a bunch of
scrubby ones too.
Like I said, I haven't spent enough time on LS to see everything,
haven't caught very much dueling there at all, but in my limited
capacity as an Order gimp I haven't really seen any O/C guilds as
large or powerful as what Sonoma has. The one area I'd give LS
the edge is in aggressive reds. Sonoma has lots of passive, defensive
murderers, but it doesn't have very many stat-loss killers, and most
of the ones who do poke their heads out on occassion just KOP away
from any of the known PvPers who might give 'em a hard time. From
what I've seen, there are a couple of big groups of stat-loss reds on
LS that will actually fight PvPers, albeit only with a strong backup
force of Chaos helpers...
>: Removing precasting will only further limit the variety.
>Hmmm. So what did you do *before* precasting?
I played a dumbass newbie warrior on Atlantic, got PK'd a lot...
Then I went to Sonoma and hooked up with TWH to see how the other
half lived. My PK mage never used precasting, didn't even have UOA
back then, and I still pretty much sucked at PvP. Was good enough
to kill monster-bashers if I could keep 'em from KOPing, but any
serious PvPer would quickly toast me (and on several occassions they
did).
Got UOA once it was approved and took my newbie gimp Chaos at about
the same time, spent a couple of hours a night doing big groups fights
against some of the better PvPers on the shard (and a variety of
cheesy losers as well). That's when I finally learned the wonders
of precasting, and coincidentally that's also when I started sucking
a little less at PvP. That really is unrelated to the precasting
though, my mages very seldom use it outside of mage duels, my warriors
relying on it more frequently, but still infrequently, for precast
Greater Heals that serve as a cushion against big mana dumps. All of
my characters have mediocre magic resistance.
I don't consider myself an elite PvPer in any fashion, but I do have
a lot of respect for some of the folks I've fought alongside and againt,
because I've seen them do some pretty impressive stuff. 8)
>Actually, more than anything I think i had a lucky roll of the dice.
>Had some brutal hits in on her. But yeah, she wasn't all that "elite"
>herself. I usually poison my weapons, but with greater poison instead
>of deadly. Much cheaper, and most people don't take the time to notice
>the difference - i'm counting on tehir cure to slow them down that brief
>second.
I currently favor using greater poison on my heavy weapons and deadly
poison on my light ones, carry one of each.
>This person went around yelling "CURE! CURE! CURE!" even tho it became
>painfully obvious real fast that she wasn't taking much damage.
Heh. Pathetic.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>I guess the one hit bit really applies to the magic part where they
>essentially hit simultaneously. Never liked that.
Heh, which part of getting PK'd have you ever liked? 8)
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>No, I'm quite serious. If you want a *true* test of "PvP skill" you need
>all that crap too. You know as well as I do that amoungst people of similar
>skill - the largest factor is machine speed, connection speed & luck.
The luck's a given, that's always part of what makes things interesting,
and the people in our dueling circle all have machine and connection
speeds which are relatively competitive. Otherwise, they wouldn't be
dueling. 8)
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>The funny thing is ... way back in teh day I was big on dueling. Had
>similar rules I would fight under than what you said. Every kewlio
>and their brother would "lol", "ur gay", "newbie" me when I would propose
>them, instructing me that real pvpers use those things.
Heh, well, I've never actually tried to duel a kewlio. The folks
in Sonoma's dueling circle are all pretty hip in terms of respecting
the rules and each other.
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>Seriously, most of the people doing the dueling are scum of the earth.
>They go rabbiting on about "honor" and scream and yell if you disrupt
>their fun (which I always do, snooping, stealing from the grey one,
>etc.) but they don't understand how it might apply if they gang bang
>some poor schmuck who misclicked on a tame animal.
It's funny, I've never seen anyone try any of that crap while our
group is dueling on Sonoma. Most of the folks who happen upon us
while we're contesting atop Wrong's entrance are cool about watching
or even joining in the festivities.
The sort of scumbags who would be prone to disrupt our contests
usually know better than to try. Many of them are already KOS
candidates for us, and none of us are shy about taking a count or
two when necessary.
>I believe in killing idiots, preferably from behind when they least
>expect it. Dueling is silly to me...guess I'm too old school for it.
Yah man, ur just 2 l33t 2 dU3l...
Shih-ka'i, OGD
Otara
Of course I've preferred the ones where I got away the most and the
pre one hit scene had a bit more of that. Nowadays they're rarer so
it sort of balances out I guess.
Otara
On 25 Dec 1999 03:45:29 GMT, yg...@mojo.calyx.net (Yuri Gorlinski)
wrote:
>sp...@spammity.com.au wrote:
Damocles
wrote:
>phae...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>Seriously, most of the people doing the dueling are scum of the earth.
>>They go rabbiting on about "honor" and scream and yell if you disrupt
>>their fun (which I always do, snooping, stealing from the grey one,
>>etc.) but they don't understand how it might apply if they gang bang
>>some poor schmuck who misclicked on a tame animal.
>
> It's funny, I've never seen anyone try any of that crap while our
>group is dueling on Sonoma. Most of the folks who happen upon us
>while we're contesting atop Wrong's entrance are cool about watching
>or even joining in the festivities.
Sure, Yuri, it's festivities for you and your group, but many of your
fellow duelers don't respect the festivities of others, so why should
you expect the same treatment? I don't believe in pk switches, but I
do believe in making the newbie killers suffer, and I excel at that.
When PiMp dA HoE, GM *Hore flags grey to duel and I'm there, I'll
immediately disrupt his fight and enjoy his frantic misspellings of
"faggot". Even if they're both blue, it's entertaining to start
blocking and snooping packs. That works as well.
If they happen to be red...well, no one knows being red better than I
do, and I know how to hurt them with maximum effect.
>
> The sort of scumbags who would be prone to disrupt our contests
>usually know better than to try. Many of them are already KOS
>candidates for us, and none of us are shy about taking a count or
>two when necessary.
Heh, maybe you are but most of your colleagues aren't. It's mostly a
lot of smoke and mirrors but if they do attack, they will get the
count.
>
>>I believe in killing idiots, preferably from behind when they least
>>expect it. Dueling is silly to me...guess I'm too old school for it.
>
> Yah man, ur just 2 l33t 2 dU3l...
>
Heh, no, just from another time in UO when it was kill or be killed,
not these ludicrous fights which last until one person runs out of
regs. I've never seen much skill involved, it usually comes down to
small bursts of lag or the random number generator spitting out high
or low values for halberd hits and ebolts. If anything, removing
precasting might give it an edge it's currently lacking.
Brandy
Quaestor <Range...@Skara.Brae> wrote in message
news:3864003E...@Skara.Brae...
I have figured out one of the reason I'm playing less and less, that
> being that I just get tired (battle fatigue) of constantly being under
threat,
> not only from the jerks, but the damned game crashing all the time (it's
not so
> simple when you have valuable pets to keep).
It would be simpler if you actually had the skill to tame those valuable
pets yourself instead of using the cheesy tactic of buying them.
Brandy (WE, LS)
c...@europa.shard
ult...@baywatch.demon.co.uk (Kiril Threndor) wrote:
This IMO is the spirit of Dungeon adventuring, it's been said over and
over again that Dungeons are not places to go in alone, guild up, enter
with 6-7 players, have a plan for defence and clear the place out, end to
end (of monsters that is! :) is more like it.
> >
> >I have never made it past the first level of any dungeon, (not even on
> >test center), without being PK'ed. I don't know how hard the monsters
> >are, I have never been given a chance to find out.
> >
> >Ice,
> >
>
> Come with us Ice.
>
> My Guild goes into most dungeons on weekends and we rarely have PK
> problems. There is usually at least six of us and most reds that see us
> just leave us alone or go away quickly. We don't attack the reds unless
> attacked 1st. Last weekend we went through Shame, Deceit, Wrong and
> Covetous.
>
> We were only attacked twice and both times the PK's died. We have a
> lovely little team plan that has worked really well both times.
>
> Let me know if you fancy it but it will probably be after the New Year
> now.
>
> Kiril.
Corwin of Amber (WE/LS)
>This person went around yelling "CURE! CURE! CURE!" even tho it became
>painfully obvious real fast that she wasn't taking much damage.
One thing I noticed being red for 3 months (or whatever it was) with
my mage is that all sorts of dolts will attack you ... that is once
they get at least a couple of other dolts to join them.
Looks like you got attacked by one of 'em.
My mage is still an archer, so I rarely use pre-cast. Still I
slaughter a ton of people pretty much just as a pure mage.
My warrior though is far-far better against mages.
Corwin
Corwin of Amber (WE/LS)
> The latest In Development update (http://update.uo.com/design_57.html)
>says that precasting will be going away soon.
>
> Since it's been gone for a while on SP, I've sort of gotten used to
>playing without it... All the same, this is going to cripple mage duels,
>and it will take a lot of the strategy out of PvP in general.
Mage duels are already dull as hell. But ... this just really nukes
the pre-cast flamestrike, smack with DP-katana down to 40's, and
release strategy. People using explode/flamestrike/halberd bullshit
just have to switch the order so the halberd comes last. Damn halberd
shouldn't swing as soon as it's equipped anyway. That should be nerfed
-or- at least bow re-arm should be unnerfed.
> From my perspective, it's my warriors on the normal shards who will be
>hit the hardest by this, as they often use precast Greater Heal spells
>to get in a melee attack or two before getting dumped on by mage types.
You can always sit there and take the first combo, greater heal that
.. then the mage probably doesn't have enough mana to finish you so
you can rely on your GS/GH and Bandaids. Or get some resist ;P
> It's starting to seem like the dev team wants to get rid of the game's
>PvP element entirely. It's been months since Sunsword promised to look
>into improving PvP on the normal shards, but the Order/Chaos wars are
>still plagued by blue healers and idiots who KOP after initiating an
>attack... Now they're giving us yet another PvP nerfing, instead of
>addressing the problems which make consensual PvP such an annoying
>business.
*shrugs* It takes 'em months to put in a decay system to reduce lag.
Server lag in general is better, and will be better still once decay
is put in.
> There's currently a poll up on this at (http://uopolls.drtwister.com/).
>Of the 119 respondants (an admittedly small sample), 66% are against the
>removal of precasting, while only 34% are in favor of it. Of course,
>when has OSI ever given a fuck about what the players want?
Gee 34% in favor? That's higher then I would had expected over at
Twisters.
Precast makes no sense. It should be gone.
Should the In Vas Mani spell be nerfed a bit? Should meditation rates
be reduced? Should the re-arm delay be put in for melee weapons?
Should the 8th circle be good for something other than Summon Daemon
and Earthquake?
These things would make more sense to me.
In the olden days you could kill people because you could run them out
of mana. Now-a-days mages can cast greater heal all day and night
until they run out of regs.
That's the *real* problem.
Corwin
Corwin of Amber (WE/LS)
wrote:
>gen...@rpi.edu wrote:
>>
>>People can and have adapted to literally hundreds of changes in PvP balance.
>>This one is no different - either in intent, nor the whine, nor the
>>outcome.
>
> Well Jeff, I've already seen how this stuff works on SP, and I can
>tell you with absolute certainty that taking out precasting totally
>ruins mage duels.
>
>
>Shih-ka'i, OGD
>
Mage duels already suck. But you can just hit with the halberd last
and get that insta-kill. Big whoooop.
Corwin of Amber (WE/LS)
On 23 Dec 1999 21:27:07 GMT, yg...@mojo.calyx.net (Yuri Gorlinski)
wrote:
>eh...@ehsco.com wrote:
>>
>>I'm not being facetious when I ask this: Do you consider magic weapons
>>to be an emphasis on resources? Do you not use weaps with accuracy and
>>damage bonuses? Do you consider a halberd to be a better resource than a
>>katana or must both parties use the same weapon?
>
> We have fairly strict rules for our friendly duels -- no magic items,
>no potions, no poisoned blades, no Paralyze, no Mana Drain, and, hmmm,
>no looting. Think that's everything... GM weapons and armor are fine.
>Combatants are not required to use the same weapons.
>
>
>Shih-ka'i, OGD
>
I see the rules are designed to save you money and make sure warriors
lose.
What the heck does fighting under artificial constraints like that
prove?
What do you do if someone starts pre-casting heal? Does everyone yell
"gay" at him until he stops?
No horses? Heck, I've commanded my horse to attack in some duels, I've
killed my opponent's horse to get an edge. Bleh.
*still thinks duels are meaningless*
Corwin
JubJub McRae
wrote:
>
> The latest In Development update (http://update.uo.com/design_57.html)
>says that precasting will be going away soon.
>
> Since it's been gone for a while on SP, I've sort of gotten used to
>playing without it... All the same, this is going to cripple mage duels,
>and it will take a lot of the strategy out of PvP in general.
>
> From my perspective, it's my warriors on the normal shards who will be
>hit the hardest by this, as they often use precast Greater Heal spells
>to get in a melee attack or two before getting dumped on by mage types.
>
> It's starting to seem like the dev team wants to get rid of the game's
>PvP element entirely. It's been months since Sunsword promised to look
>into improving PvP on the normal shards, but the Order/Chaos wars are
>still plagued by blue healers and idiots who KOP after initiating an
>attack... Now they're giving us yet another PvP nerfing, instead of
>addressing the problems which make consensual PvP such an annoying
>business.
>
> There's currently a poll up on this at (http://uopolls.drtwister.com/).
>Of the 119 respondants (an admittedly small sample), 66% are against the
>removal of precasting, while only 34% are in favor of it. Of course,
>when has OSI ever given a fuck about what the players want?
>
>
>Lord Ssu-ma Shih-ka'i, OGD
And Dr Twister visitors are representative of the UO populace?
Xigam
>PvP element entirely. It's been months since Sunsword promised to look
>into improving PvP on the normal shards, but the Order/Chaos wars are
>still plagued by blue healers and idiots who KOP after initiating an
This totally sucks.. precasting has major uses other than PvP.. and as
far as PvP goes, it's going to really hurt the way things go..
I think you are right OSI is trying to get rid of the PvP element... I
think the major problem is that people who have just lost a battle
seem to whine loudest and point to anything else but their own failure
as the reason for losing..
- Xigam
(and no, I'm not a PK! I don't want to see all the excitment gone!)
Xigam
>I have never made it past the first level of any dungeon, (not even on
>test center), without being PK'ed. I don't know how hard the monsters
>are, I have never been given a chance to find out.
You can't be serious.. I can take a 2 minute old newbie and make it to
the 2nd level of just about any dungeon.. all it takes is legs..
- Xigam
Xigam
>Precasting allows for an instakill. Without removing precasting, how
>would you address this.
If you are weak enough, you can get insta killed without precasting..
IF you suck, you can be strong and get "insta killed".. if you don'
you won't.. at least not every time.
- Xigam
Xigam
>You know, I think some people are just cursed this way.
>I for instance have a 100% success rate on being attacked
>while in deciet. Most places I go, I'll run into some
>asshole who attacks me.
Do you wear a cape and carry a longsword or something? What do you
wear.. ? I am beginning ot think it makes a difference after talking
to a friend of mine who says she's always getting attacked..
- Xigam
Austin
100 str 100 resist can be instakilled. Suck or not.
Xigam
wrote:
And don't forget that you can also cast heal.. duh
>007...@direct.ca wrote:
>>
>>That would too. But look at the number(posted on stratics)
>>
>>Max damage on Explosion 50 (42 at 100 resist)
>>Max damage on FS 59 (50 at 100 resist)
>>Hally base damage 52 (after all damage bonusses 49 * 210% = 103
>>divided by 2 = 52)
>>
>>For a POSSIBLE damage of 161 (148 at GM resist)
>>
>>
>>This is all from stratics, and this is one of the easier combos to
>>throw.
>
> Nobody has GM EI and GM Anatomy, so your max numbers are essentially
>impossible. The combo also isn't nearly as easy as you make it out to
>be, Flamestrike often fails, and halbreds often miss. You're also
>assuming that the victim fails to resist both spells...
>
> I agree that it's a lot of potential damage, but the practical reality
>is that it never does that much. And, even without precasting, people
>are still going to be able to use that same combo -- they're just going
>to run up for the halbred attack after the Flamestrike.
>
>
>Shih-ka'i, OGD
Damocles
(Xigam) wrote:
>
>I think you are right OSI is trying to get rid of the PvP element... I
>think the major problem is that people who have just lost a battle
>seem to whine loudest and point to anything else but their own failure
>as the reason for losing..
>
>- Xigam
>
Bah, precasting eliminates excitement, not the other way around. It
makes every battle a contest between who has the best timing. I've
very rarely used it. I use the "explosion followed by halberd hit"
routine, but that's not affected by this fix as the explosion is
targeted before the halberd is equipped.
Austin
(Xigam) wrote:
>On 22 Dec 1999 18:02:09 GMT, yg...@mojo.calyx.net (Yuri Gorlinski)
>wrote:
>
>And don't forget that you can also cast heal.. duh
>
Not if you are para'ed
Quaestor
> I think you are right OSI is trying to get rid of the PvP element...
And yet make everything else impossible? I guess it could be true if they
just want to kill UO to promote UO2.
Grant Farrington
>>If you are weak enough, you can get insta killed without precasting..
>>IF you suck, you can be strong and get "insta killed".. if you don'
>>you won't.. at least not every time.
>100 str 100 resist can be instakilled. Suck or not.
How exactly does this work ? You precast say FS and then get out your
real good hally, hit a good hit with it then dump the FS ?
Is there no way to protect yourself ?
Cheers,
Eric A. Hall
> How exactly does this work ? You precast say FS and then get out your
> real good hally, hit a good hit with it then dump the FS ?
>
> Is there no way to protect yourself ?
Magic reflect items and parry make an excellent defense. Combined with
dex and high weapon skills, you'll turn this kind of attack around so
fast the mage will be dead before he knows what happened.
Austin
<fa...@satcom.net.au> wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Dec 1999 10:47:02 -0800, Austin <007...@direct.ca> wrote:
>
>>>If you are weak enough, you can get insta killed without precasting..
>>>IF you suck, you can be strong and get "insta killed".. if you don'
>>>you won't.. at least not every time.
>
>>100 str 100 resist can be instakilled. Suck or not.
>
>How exactly does this work ? You precast say FS and then get out your
>real good hally, hit a good hit with it then dump the FS ?
>
>Is there no way to protect yourself ?
>
>Cheers,
>
Its all luck of the die roll. Although a magic reflect item protects
you rather well, iff you equip it properly. Equip it after hes hit
yuou with spell one, and has number 2 precast.
Kelsi of Baja
> It would be simpler if you actually had the skill to tame those valuable
> pets yourself instead of using the cheesy tactic of buying them.
>
Don't tamers have to make a living, too?
Kelsi
Brandy
Kelsi of Baja <babrod...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:38748C4A...@cs.com...
Dragons are gold machines, just take one or two to a dungeon and clean
house. There is no need at that level of taming to "have" to make gold by
selling them.
Brandy (WE, LS)