PvM needs a MAJOR overhaul
Peter Michael Kretschman
We've had several debates about which will win in PvP combat, mages or
warriors. From what I've read, things seem to be pretty slanted in favor
of the warriors, provided they use the right tactics. But something that
is almost never addressed is the imbalance in player vs. monster combat.
Could this be because all people care about is PvP? I dunno.
But anyway, it is basically impossible, or at least extremely inefficient,
to take on the higher-level monsters in hand-to-hand combat. Things like
Daemons, Drakes, Dragons, Terathan and Ophidian Avengers and Matriarchs,
ogre lords, wyverns, stone gargoyles and harpies, etc will tear even a
warrior with a 100 str and heavy armor a new asshole in short order. In
addition, some of these even poison you with deadly or worse.
So what do people do? They exploit flaws in the monster AI to trap them,
then unleash a BS or an EV. That's it. Several people in my guild do
this regularly to maintain their "Glorious Lord" status. My character is
a warrior with mid-range magery, and is NEVER asked to come on these
little trips, because I inevitably wind up standing around and watching.
Why? Because if I went down and tried to fight, I would DIE. Quickly.
So basically, magic has a MAJOR advantage in PvM combat. I would like to
see some changes made - stepping down the level of poison some creatures
inflict, reducing hand-to-hand damage, etc. The reduction in time
required to heal others with the Healing skill is a step in the right
direction, but it still isn't enough.
You listening, DD?
--
-PK (MSTie #44588)
(Now featuring a HOMEPAGE! http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pkretsch)
"Mr. Churchill! You're drunk!"
El Cid
Peter Michael Kretschman wrote in message ...
>Raph, I hope you still read this group...
>
>We've had several debates about which will win in PvP combat, mages or
>warriors. From what I've read, things seem to be pretty slanted in favor
>of the warriors, provided they use the right tactics.
Funny, I'm not much of a PvP'er, but my impression based on posts here has
always been the opposite.
> Things like
>Daemons, Drakes, Dragons, Terathan and Ophidian Avengers and Matriarchs,
>ogre lords, wyverns, stone gargoyles and harpies, etc will tear even a
>warrior with a 100 str and heavy armor a new asshole in short order.
Some of these are definitely beatable by an experienced (mid 90's or higher
combat skills) warrior in 1-on-1 combat. Those that are not are so because
they poison or have other abilites which allow them to heap out massive
damage. (Fire Breathing, Magic, poison, etc) Some of these (Greater demons,
dragons, etc) SHOULD be this way. The only current flaw is that they're
easily beatable by anyone with an EV spell.
>So what do people do? They exploit flaws in the monster AI to trap them,
>then unleash a BS or an EV. That's it
>
>So basically, magic has a MAJOR advantage in PvM combat. I would like to
>see some changes made - stepping down the level of poison some creatures
>inflict, reducing hand-to-hand damage, etc. The reduction in time
>required to heal others with the Healing skill is a step in the right
>direction, but it still isn't enough.
I agree with a lot of this. Hopefully, sometime in 2007 we'll finally have
the "better monster AI" which allows monsters to teleport when trapped, run
away and heal, etc. Then hopefully the obscene stats on some of them can be
tweaked down to make warriors useful again.
Opium
> Daemons, Drakes, Dragons, Terathan and Ophidian Avengers and Matriarchs,
> ogre lords, wyverns, stone gargoyles and harpies, etc will tear even a
> addition, some of these even poison you with deadly or worse.
>
alone, even with 100 str, GM skills, full invulnerability armor and a
vanquishing weapon.
> So what do people do? They exploit flaws in the monster AI to trap them,
> then unleash a BS or an EV. That's it. Several people in my guild do
> this regularly to maintain their "Glorious Lord" status. My character is
> a warrior with mid-range magery, and is NEVER asked to come on these
> little trips, because I inevitably wind up standing around and watching.
> Why? Because if I went down and tried to fight, I would DIE. Quickly.
>
Hopefully monsters will soon fight much smarter, teleport around, have
better pathfinding, heal themselves and other monsters and use spell
combos...
Imagine fighting some orcs which get healed by their mage while he fires
explosion/ebolt combos at you...
> So basically, magic has a MAJOR advantage in PvM combat. I would like to
> see some changes made - stepping down the level of poison some creatures
> inflict, reducing hand-to-hand damage, etc. The reduction in time
> required to heal others with the Healing skill is a step in the right
> direction, but it still isn't enough.
>
Reducing hand-to-hand damage? A dragon's claw would rip every full plate
knight into pieces without problems.
Troy Smart
kill a dragon but a great number of monsters in T2 do insane amounts of
damage. How many warriors do you see wandering Ice or some of the Keeps
compared to mages. Few since they have to fight in large packs to survive.
Which is how I think it should be. I do hate how I always see people on ledges
casting ev's and bs on monsters and I hope the AI is redone. But some of the
monsters are impossible to take in hand to hand and the damage needs to be
fixed. I am reminded of snow elementals, which kills me in less time then an
ev does. I can last longer against the ev then the elemental. So the elemental
is rougher I agree. But their is few times I have to fight 3 ev's while a
warrior in Ice can expect to be ganged by 3 to 5 elements. I seen 3 snow
elements wipe out parties of warriors just to be stopped by a single mage on
ledge. *sigh*
Peter Michael Kretschman wrote:
> Raph, I hope you still read this group...
>
> We've had several debates about which will win in PvP combat, mages or
> warriors. From what I've read, things seem to be pretty slanted in favor
> of the warriors, provided they use the right tactics. But something that
> is almost never addressed is the imbalance in player vs. monster combat.
> Could this be because all people care about is PvP? I dunno.
>
> But anyway, it is basically impossible, or at least extremely inefficient,
> to take on the higher-level monsters in hand-to-hand combat. Things like
> Daemons, Drakes, Dragons, Terathan and Ophidian Avengers and Matriarchs,
> ogre lords, wyverns, stone gargoyles and harpies, etc will tear even a
> warrior with a 100 str and heavy armor a new asshole in short order. In
> addition, some of these even poison you with deadly or worse.
>
> So what do people do? They exploit flaws in the monster AI to trap them,
> then unleash a BS or an EV. That's it. Several people in my guild do
> this regularly to maintain their "Glorious Lord" status. My character is
> a warrior with mid-range magery, and is NEVER asked to come on these
> little trips, because I inevitably wind up standing around and watching.
> Why? Because if I went down and tried to fight, I would DIE. Quickly.
>
> So basically, magic has a MAJOR advantage in PvM combat. I would like to
> see some changes made - stepping down the level of poison some creatures
> inflict, reducing hand-to-hand damage, etc. The reduction in time
> required to heal others with the Healing skill is a step in the right
> direction, but it still isn't enough.
>
Frank Ziems
>alone, even with 100 str, GM skills, full invulnerability armor and a
>vanquishing weapon.
That is exactly the kind of warrior that should be able to beat a dragon!
Peter Michael Kretschman
monsters should NOT be solo-able. I do, however, think that normal
dragons (not white wyrms or elder wryms, mind you) for example, should be
beatable by a single GM warrior in plate, which is simply not possible
without heavy backup. And the higher-level Terathan and Ophidian troops
should also be managable for one or two GM warriors (the poison + heavy
damage + magic makes them basically unbeatable in hand-to-hand combat
right now).
But the problem is that to team up in hand-to-hand on a monster, even ones
that SHOULD require teamwork, requires far more effort and far more danger
than simply trapping the damn thing and Vas Corp Por'ing it. When faced
with the potential of death plus the great deal of organization versus
trapping the thing, letting it use up its mana, then dropping a BS or EV
on it, which one do you expect players to choose?
I don't expect to be able to take my 92 hp GM Swordsman out to Hythloth
and slaughter Fathers of the Damned. I would, however, like to see a
general toning-down of monster deadliness, to help out someone like me who
hates PvP but would like to see more PvM.
Opium
I don't think so. The dragon has perhaps 1000 str, more than GM skills,
magic, firebreath, a very thick skin and razor sharp teeth and claws.
4 warriors should be able to take him, but not a single. A single
warrior should need a special item like a magic sword "Dragonslayer".
Opium
> Correct me if I am wrong, I always thought that weapons are already
> doing double damage against monsters.
>
AFAIK only magic, not weapons.
Austin
Info courtesy of uo.stratics.com
1) Determine Speed of Attack.
2) Determine % Chance to Hit.
3) Randomly determine base damage, within weapon's damage range.
4a) Determine Tactics Modifier to Damage Dealt to base damage.
4b) Add STR Bonuses to Damage Dealt to base damage.
4c) Add Anatomy Bonuses to Damage Dealt to base damage.
5) Double all Spell-damage against non-players.
6) Check for magical defenses. (Reactive Armor, for example).
7) Modify for Chance to Block an Attack with/Damage Absorbed by
Shield.
(Ignore if Defender is not wearing a shield).
8) Determine Hit Location
9) Modify for Damage Absorbed by Armor
10) Halve all remaining damage.
11) Apply final damage.
Austin of Napa
Treasure Hunter for hire. If there are hunters on other shard
that use UOAM ill share my map files with you.
El Cid
Opium wrote in message <37532D1F...@cares.com>...
>>
>Yep, I know the scheme, but I'm still not sure if for example
>100 tactics + 100 str + 100 anatomy gives you:
>1.5 + 1.2 + 1.2 = 1.9 x damage
>or 1.5 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 2.16 x damage
It's additive. Notice it says "add to BASE damage".
Narna
Why alter everything to cater for the few who want to kill each other to the
detriment off the rest of us.
If things are unbalanced in PvP then let those players sort out ways of
getting around their difficulties.
Opium
> >> doing double damage against monsters.
> >>
> >AFAIK only magic, not weapons.
>
> Info courtesy of uo.stratics.com
>
> 1) Determine Speed of Attack.
> 2) Determine % Chance to Hit.
> 3) Randomly determine base damage, within weapon's damage range.
> 4a) Determine Tactics Modifier to Damage Dealt to base damage.
> 4b) Add STR Bonuses to Damage Dealt to base damage.
> 4c) Add Anatomy Bonuses to Damage Dealt to base damage.
> 5) Double all Spell-damage against non-players.
> 6) Check for magical defenses. (Reactive Armor, for example).
> 7) Modify for Chance to Block an Attack with/Damage Absorbed by
> Shield.
> (Ignore if Defender is not wearing a shield).
> 8) Determine Hit Location
> 9) Modify for Damage Absorbed by Armor
> 10) Halve all remaining damage.
> 11) Apply final damage.
>
Austin
>Yep, I know the scheme, but I'm still not sure if for example
>100 tactics + 100 str + 100 anatomy gives you:
>1.5 + 1.2 + 1.2 = 1.9 x damage
>or 1.5 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 2.16 x damage
3) Randomly determine base damage, within weapon's damage range.
4a) Determine Tactics Modifier to Damage Dealt to base damage.
4b) Add STR Bonuses to Damage Dealt to base damage.
4c) Add Anatomy Bonuses to Damage Dealt to base damage.
Based on this it should be
1.5 + 1.2 + 1.2 = 1.9 x Damage
Opium
> >100 tactics + 100 str + 100 anatomy gives you:
> >1.5 + 1.2 + 1.2 = 1.9 x damage
> >or 1.5 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 2.16 x damage
>
Ack, BASE damage is the word. Another question is
how the 20% GM weapon bonus goes into the calculation,
but I assume just another +1.2
What about magic damage bonus (the +1..+9 bonus
for ruin up to vanquishing)? Is it added before the
damage passes armor and is halved or after all other
modifications have been calculated? I think it must
be last, or a vanquishing katana would not make that
much damage. IMHO this bonus should be relative to
weapon base damage, and I think it was in development
long time ago, but didn't read anything about it again.
Drake
Thomas Schwan <thomas...@home.ivm.de> wrote in message
news:3753b33b...@news.neuss.netsurf.de...
> ice...@mindspring.com (icelady) wrote:
>
> >One way is to make the weapons less affective against PC's, and bring
> >back the old affect against monsters.
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, I always thought that weapons are already
> doing double damage against monsters.
You are wrong, damage is still *normal* against monsters, but has been
HALVED against PC's.
>
> >I thought they were <supposed> to cut back on the POISION in monsters
> >with the last patch. If they did I have not seen much of a change.
> >An Orc Mage poisoned my character three times before I got him killed
> >yesterday. One time would have been to much for me, but three times
> >is ridiculous.
>
> Just the natural poison of snakes, scorpions, poison elementals and
> whatever, not the magical poison.
Yes. It really seems to me that the opening spell of ANY spell casting
creature is a poison, which amazingly, NEVER seems to miss or is rarely
resisted.
Cheesy way to make monsters tougher. Insta-poisoning beasts is a cop-out
for a weak AI. Raph, cmon now, you guys didn't really do anything to
poisoning. =)