Sunsword: pets causing severe PvP imbalances
Yuri Gorlinski
increased pet follow speeds are causing severe PvP imbalances. A tamer
with a couple of grizzly bears is now an unstoppable killing machine --
one needs only set the bears to attack and they will stick to the target
like glue. If the victim is fortunate enough to get some separation,
the bears are seemingly capable of doing melee damage from a distance
while teleporting to get within melee range of their victims.
Summoned daemons are even worse. They're impossible to dispel unless
you have a very high level of magery, and there's no other effective
means of dealing with them... The other night I attempted to paralyze
one which was set upon myself and my guildmates, and its owner was
seemingly able to break the paralyzation simply by re-initiating the
attack command.
Without question, tamed and summoned creatures should be effective
tools for PvP. Under the current system, however, these tools are
proving far too effective, to the point where they are beginning to
overshadow all other forms of combat. A complete and total nerfing is
uncalled for, but things might be balanced a little better if you could
tweak down the movement rate of pets once they are set to attack. And
if re-initiating the attack command really does break paralyzation, as
it seems to, you should fix it so that it does not.
Lord Ssu-ma Shih-ka'i, OGD
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Lord Queso
>uncalled for, but things might be balanced a little better if you could
>tweak down the movement rate of pets once they are set to attack.
Ok, I'm sure OSI will start working immediatly on a ever so slight tweak, I
expect it to be something like this...
-Summoning Pets now costs 400 mana.
-Taming of any animal requires a skill of 100 in taming, animal lore, and
forensic evaluation
-Summoned and tamed pets can not move or participate in combat.
Corwin of Amber (SBR/LS, WE/ATL)
> After playing with the new system a bit, it's become apparant that the
>increased pet follow speeds are causing severe PvP imbalances.
Hmm ...
> A tamer
>with a couple of grizzly bears is now an unstoppable killing machine --
>one needs only set the bears to attack and they will stick to the target
>like glue.
Try a horse. Too bad you kill them all. LOL
> If the victim is fortunate enough to get some separation,
>the bears are seemingly capable of doing melee damage from a distance
>while teleporting to get within melee range of their victims.
HINT HINT ... Did you try *killing* the bears?
> Summoned daemons are even worse.
Hmm, my warrior killed one last night.
>They're impossible to dispel unless
>you have a very high level of magery,
Yup, my warrior is a master mage ... comes in handy.
>and there's no other effective
>means of dealing with them...
How about killing them ... or better yet, kill the person controlling
them.
> The other night I attempted to paralyze
>one which was set upon myself and my guildmates, and its owner was
>seemingly able to break the paralyzation simply by re-initiating the
>attack command.
Para works fine for me ... but as I said my warrior is a master mage.
Yours was probably either resisted or wore off quickly.
> Without question, tamed and summoned creatures should be effective
>tools for PvP.
Umm yep.
> Under the current system, however, these tools are
>proving far too effective, to the point where they are beginning to
>overshadow all other forms of combat.
I take it you mean on SP.
> A complete and total nerfing is
>uncalled for, but things might be balanced a little better if you could
>tweak down the movement rate of pets once they are set to attack.
Or maybe you should just ride a horse? BWAHAHAHAHA
> And
>if re-initiating the attack command really does break paralyzation, as
>it seems to, you should fix it so that it does not.
It doesn't.
Sounds like you're having problems dealing with pvp issues with a
relative newbie character. Experienced characters should be able to
whip newbie characters. Now if you're problem is more with lag and
connect, that's a general problem which effects everyone's ability in
pvp.
Just you wait until someone on SP can tame dragons ... *sheesh*
In the meantime go hire some paladins to protect you from those nasty
grizzly bears!
Enjoy.
Corwin
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>Try a horse. Too bad you kill them all. LOL
Heh. Good one. But I think the problems I'm describing here are just
as bad for people on horseback...
>> If the victim is fortunate enough to get some separation,
>>the bears are seemingly capable of doing melee damage from a distance
>>while teleporting to get within melee range of their victims.
>
>HINT HINT ... Did you try *killing* the bears?
I haven't personally had to deal with the bears, but I watched a bunch
of 'em maul a guildmate the other night while I was busy letting a
couple of CE mages mana dump on me...
>How about killing them ... or better yet, kill the person controlling
>them.
Hard to do that when the daemon is dropping everyone it so much as
looks at...
>Para works fine for me ... but as I said my warrior is a master mage.
>Yours was probably either resisted or wore off quickly.
A definite possibility. What surprised me is that it broke the
para at the exact instant its master ordered it to attack me...
The fact that he ordered it to reinitiate the attack led me to believe
that he knew this would break the para... Could of just been a silly
coincidence, I guess.
>> Under the current system, however, these tools are
>>proving far too effective, to the point where they are beginning to
>>overshadow all other forms of combat.
>
>I take it you mean on SP.
Yep, haven't played on the normal shards in a while. Not sure if
pet speed has been jacked up as much there...
>> A complete and total nerfing is
>>uncalled for, but things might be balanced a little better if you could
>>tweak down the movement rate of pets once they are set to attack.
>
>Or maybe you should just ride a horse? BWAHAHAHAHA
Heh. Bastard.
>Sounds like you're having problems dealing with pvp issues with a
>relative newbie character. Experienced characters should be able to
>whip newbie characters. Now if you're problem is more with lag and
>connect, that's a general problem which effects everyone's ability in
>pvp.
My connection has been fairly pristine through all of these
observations. And I don't think it's a newbie issue, when I went
Chaos on Sonoma I did so with a character significantly less advanced
than the one I'm currently running on SP... I know that, with a little
bit of luck, I used to be able to outrun daemons and other beasties, or
at least get enough distance to deal with them using spells, but with
the new pet follow speeds this isn't possible anymore. My SP character
has 100 str, it isn't a matter of getting hit once, dying, and then
saying "wtf?"
It certainly seems like a new phenomenon to me. I've dealt with
all this stuff on the normal shards in the past, and I don't remember
pets on my trail being able to do melee damage from a distance and
then teleporting to within striking range. It's like when you're
leading an escort and you get too far away from it, it'll teleport
right up next to you. Didn't used to be like that. I don't mind
it with the escorts, but aggressive pets are causing problems.
>Just you wait until someone on SP can tame dragons ... *sheesh*
People already are taming dragons, though I haven't run afoul of
any of 'em yet... Saw more than enough of it on Sonoma, thanks.
>In the meantime go hire some paladins to protect you from those nasty
>grizzly bears!
Paladins. Feh. They're only marginally better than horses...
Lord Queso
>-Remove all animals, elementals, and demons from the game.
>-Remove all players with the animal taming or magery skills from the game.
Throw in a few dupe bugs, some major lag, and disconnects and WE HAVE A PATCH!
Bunk
wrote:
Well this is interesting... I am a tamer and I can't say I've really
tried this yet. I have seen players in fights run away from tame
bears without too much difficulty, but I've never actually sicced one
of mine on anyone. Guess I'll have to experiment...
I think it would be a very fine line to tweak though... If a player
could simply jog out the way of the animals, then they arn't overlly
effective as guards anymore.
And it's about damn time you got a properly approved housesign! Now
if we could just get the OGD to start paying thier property taxes....
On a side note: Killing the horse of an NPK, or a looter, or a
downright annoying kEwLiO is nasty, but often effective punishment.
Killing the horse of an innocent that you just pk'd is down right
mean, and uncalled for. Tommorow I'll try beating that fact into your
head...
Till then...
Bunk.
Yuri Gorlinski
> Well this is interesting... I am a tamer and I can't say I've really
> tried this yet. I have seen players in fights run away from tame
> bears without too much difficulty, but I've never actually sicced one
> of mine on anyone. Guess I'll have to experiment...
Maybe you and Corwin are right, maybe it's all in my mind, maybe we
just happened to run into a couple of uber-bears or something...
Wouldn't be the first time I was mistaken.
> And it's about damn time you got a properly approved housesign! Now
> if we could just get the OGD to start paying thier property taxes....
Funny you should mention it, we were actually visited by a tax
collector just the other day... He's buried out back.
> On a side note: Killing the horse of an NPK, or a looter, or a
> downright annoying kEwLiO is nasty, but often effective punishment.
> Killing the horse of an innocent that you just pk'd is down right
> mean, and uncalled for. Tommorow I'll try beating that fact into your
> head...
What I really hate is how you have to kill the rider before you even
have an opporunity to attack the horse... It shouldn't ought to be like
that. If I'm fighting a mounted opponent, I'd like to be able to go for
the horse first, take it out at the legs, or try to spook it or
something... Being able to make a horse throw its rider would be so
goddamn cool!
The way things are set up in the game right now, I have to PKill just
to get a decent shot at the horses...
Lord Ssu-ma Shih-ka'i, OGD
Dundee
wrote:
> Maybe you and Corwin are right, maybe it's all in my mind, maybe we
> just happened to run into a couple of uber-bears or something...
> Wouldn't be the first time I was mistaken.
Maybe someone sparred those bears into GM Warriors. :-P
Bunk
wrote:
Hey!, thats a good idea. Mybe I'll spar my horse up to GM Warrior,
and let it fight Yuri me....
Bunk.
>
>--
>http://dundee.uong.com/
jlbarnes
Bunk wrote:
Well one of these days I'm going to train my chicken to the point that it
can kill PKs for me. That or have cock fights with it.
Quaestor
> Hey!, thats a good idea. Mybe I'll spar my horse up to GM Warrior, and let
> it fight Yuri me....
only prob with this is, OS in their ... wisdom has made horses less than
bunnies as far as fighting goes. Obviously the OS guys have never been near
one, much less kicked accross a barn by one and carried their ribs home in a
sack. Still, you should be able to get a horse's fighting ability up by
having it fight bunnies. With plenty of healing. Might even someday be able
to beat a timberwolf.
Corwin of Amber (WE/LS/ATL, SBR/rtd)
>>Try a horse. Too bad you kill them all. LOL
>
> Heh. Good one. But I think the problems I'm describing here are just
>as bad for people on horseback...
Brandy has a mediocre 200ms/modem connect and traps them in houses or
behind stuff all the time. A mage has to para her to kill her with a
daemon. Horses make a big diff. I've killed mages while their daemons
were whapping on me ... just gotta move around a bit ... drink pots,
etc ...
>>> If the victim is fortunate enough to get some separation,
>>>the bears are seemingly capable of doing melee damage from a distance
>>>while teleporting to get within melee range of their victims.
>>
>>HINT HINT ... Did you try *killing* the bears?
>
> I haven't personally had to deal with the bears, but I watched a bunch
>of 'em maul a guildmate the other night while I was busy letting a
>couple of CE mages mana dump on me...
I used to think griz bears were tough ... 19 months ago.
>>How about killing them ... or better yet, kill the person controlling
>>them.
>
> Hard to do that when the daemon is dropping everyone it so much as
>looks at...
Umm, helps if you have magic resist, parry, and a friend slapping
bandaids on yah. Although a DP weapon will kill one real fast.
>>Para works fine for me ... but as I said my warrior is a master mage.
>>Yours was probably either resisted or wore off quickly.
>
> A definite possibility. What surprised me is that it broke the
>para at the exact instant its master ordered it to attack me...
>The fact that he ordered it to reinitiate the attack led me to believe
>that he knew this would break the para... Could of just been a silly
>coincidence, I guess.
I'm guessing coincidence. A low-level para just does not last very
long.
>>> Under the current system, however, these tools are
>>>proving far too effective, to the point where they are beginning to
>>>overshadow all other forms of combat.
>>
>>I take it you mean on SP.
>
> Yep, haven't played on the normal shards in a while. Not sure if
>pet speed has been jacked up as much there...
It was jacked up. As much? Dunno.
> My connection has been fairly pristine through all of these
>observations. And I don't think it's a newbie issue, when I went
>Chaos on Sonoma I did so with a character significantly less advanced
>than the one I'm currently running on SP... I know that, with a little
>bit of luck, I used to be able to outrun daemons and other beasties, or
>at least get enough distance to deal with them using spells, but with
>the new pet follow speeds this isn't possible anymore. My SP character
>has 100 str, it isn't a matter of getting hit once, dying, and then
>saying "wtf?"
Parry? Armor? Resist? Weapon skill?
> It certainly seems like a new phenomenon to me. I've dealt with
>all this stuff on the normal shards in the past, and I don't remember
>pets on my trail being able to do melee damage from a distance and
>then teleporting to within striking range. It's like when you're
>leading an escort and you get too far away from it, it'll teleport
>right up next to you. Didn't used to be like that. I don't mind
>it with the escorts, but aggressive pets are causing problems.
Hmm ... I think we could get that confirmed. Pets do not teleport on
the normal shards. It sounds to me like you have packet loss. If you
got packet loss to SP, forget about it ... you're dead.
>>Just you wait until someone on SP can tame dragons ... *sheesh*
>
> People already are taming dragons, though I haven't run afoul of
>any of 'em yet... Saw more than enough of it on Sonoma, thanks.
Hmm, don't tamed Dragons attack murderers on sight? Is that still in?
If reds (or evil perhaps?) cannot control pets that would be a huge
benefit for blues on the shard. Previously tamers wouldn't go murderer
for fear of taking skill-loss. One way or another tamers are gonna be
real popular on SP.
>>In the meantime go hire some paladins to protect you from those nasty
>>grizzly bears!
>
> Paladins. Feh. They're only marginally better than horses...
Hehe, plus you have to be able to walk in to town to hire them.
Corwin
Otara
> What I really hate is how you have to kill the rider before you even
>have an opporunity to attack the horse... It shouldn't ought to be like
>that. If I'm fighting a mounted opponent, I'd like to be able to go for
>the horse first, take it out at the legs, or try to spook it or
>something... Being able to make a horse throw its rider would be so
>goddamn cool!
Well in RL you'd be at a significant disadvantage fighting from the ground, so
it evens out.
Otara
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>Brandy has a mediocre 200ms/modem connect and traps them in houses or
>behind stuff all the time. A mage has to para her to kill her with a
>daemon. Horses make a big diff. I've killed mages while their daemons
>were whapping on me ... just gotta move around a bit ... drink pots,
>etc ...
I've got pretty much the same sort of connection as Brandy, and I've
often used horses in the past as some of my other characters are a bit
less prejudiced against the beasts... I know it makes a difference.
They also seem to trip over their own feet a lot when I set them to
run at full speed, which I find very disturbing. It's one of their
less subtle tricks, but it demonstrates how they are humankind's
mortal enemy...
>I used to think griz bears were tough ... 19 months ago.
You're a riot. I usually have my new characters spar them for skill
gain after the initial stage of newbiedom... These seemed to be moving
at an abnormal clip. It could all be in me head, or a symptom of not
being used to dealing with pets on SP with the shaky connection.
>Umm, helps if you have magic resist, parry, and a friend slapping
>bandaids on yah. Although a DP weapon will kill one real fast.
Not quite at that point yet on SP. I live and die by the DP stuff
on the normal shards, but I went armsman this time. My thinking here
is that the expensiveness of alchemy favors the stamina-bashing effects
of maces (few people can afford Total Refresh potions) while making DP
weapons much less easy to come by. Besides which, my real offensive
focus is on magery. All the same, I'll probably come to regret not
going with swords eventually...
>Hmm ... I think we could get that confirmed. Pets do not teleport on
>the normal shards. It sounds to me like you have packet loss. If you
>got packet loss to SP, forget about it ... you're dead.
This is something of a problem for me on the central shards. My
connection to the east and west coast servers is usually clean, but
I do get 10-15% packet loss on SP at times. Seems like everybody
I know does.
Didn't seem like it in this instance though, I wasn't getting the
p/l induced freeze-lag, the pets just seemed sped up.
>Hmm, don't tamed Dragons attack murderers on sight? Is that still in?
No idea. Most of my experience getting stomped on by dragons came
from the Order/Chaos wars...
>If reds (or evil perhaps?) cannot control pets that would be a huge
>benefit for blues on the shard. Previously tamers wouldn't go murderer
>for fear of taking skill-loss. One way or another tamers are gonna be
>real popular on SP.
They already are.
>> Paladins. Feh. They're only marginally better than horses...
>
>Hehe, plus you have to be able to walk in to town to hire them.
Well, I am still blue on SP for want of a little more quality time
training, but I still wouldn't want to be seen working with that
sort...