Sick of Blue PK's - OSI please read and respond
bigb...@my-dejanews.com
"Lan the Warder is attacking you." Since there were also thre Orphidians
attacking me at the same time and I had already been dead twice today (even I
get tired of dying), I lit out.
I come back, scout around, and there he is. Into combat mode, target him and
he is BLUE. Well, he attacks me and we have at it and he kills me. Guess
what he says after I die, "You suck, hehe". So I report him and put no
bounty (why should I waste my hard earned money on these scum).
Now, I can be a little hard to take some times but I didn't say one word to
this guy. I didn't even see him the first time he attacked me so this is
definately not a case of Big Ed's Big Mouth getting him killed. So, if this
guy attacks me out of the blue, you know I am not the first.
OSI, when are we going to do something about murderers that we can't attack.
I say two murders in a 24 hour period make you perma-flagged red until you
DIE. One murder a day is fine, there are plenty of jerks out there that need
killing just for breathing. Screw stat loss, even murderers work hard for
their stats but damm it, if you want to be a murderer, suffer the
consequences.
I got no problem with a red guy, me and him might fight but at least I can
respect him in the morning.
You all know how I feel about dying, it aint' no big deal but at least give me
some warning and put things on a level playing field. As it is, the bliue PK
ALWAYS gets the first shot and that can be crucial. If I see red, I can run,
fight, hide, whatever just like I do when I see that orc mage.
Does anyone else agree with me? Ralph, what do you think?
Big Ed the Bad
Blue PK'd again
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Chris Sanders
one) of blue pks. What's worse, most of them have positive karma to
boot. Something definitely needs to be done about it. I would also
like it if low noto people's names would highlight a slightly different
shade to help me watch for thieves.
Chris
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|Does anyone else agree with me? Ralph, what do you think?
Get rid of the "until you die" part.
Dennis F. Heffernan UO: Venture (Catskills) dfra...@email.com
Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
when Victoria reigned." -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
motion3
mocking me in town after I resurrect. All of the PKs I run into or
see are usually blue. The few that are red, are either surrounded by
a dozen friends, or are smart and running from kill to kill.
I can deal with the reds, they take a risk with what they do. A lot
of reds tend to RP, and you do get an idea of what they're about when
you see them.
I am beginning to understand more and more why people PK a little each
day and wait it off. Its so profitable, and it give's power freaks a
fix. If your a miner... Why mine? Just follow people around, steal
their ore. If you find someone with enough ingots, or ore--Kill them
for it. "I don't care." Hey, and then if your feeling down, or having
self esteem problems--Make the other guys experience hell. After all
bad guys are cool, and nice guys finish last. (Sarcasm inserted in
previous lines)
Well enough ranting. Your idea might work. But I suspect they will
do something small and simple. Maybe they should make some changes in
murder counts incrementally, just to see the effects.
I would love to see the statistics for how many murders per each
shard. Lifetime murders per character. Deaths per character. I
think it would be quite interesting. (YES, I know this will NEVER
happen).
On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 03:49:43 GMT, bigb...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>Does anyone else agree with me? Ralph, what do you think?
>
Nelson
Pks will ALWAYS ALWAYS find ways to circumvent the latest method to
control their behaviour in game.
Before stats loss was first introduced under the old notoriety system
several months ago, npking or blue pks were unheard of(save for a few
firefield incidents). Pks learned to manipulate the notoriety system,
attacking only those who were grey or using methods of pking that didnt
cause notoriety loss back then(Energy Vortex).
Under the new reputation system, they've learned how to manipulate the
murder count system, so that they can stay blue most of the time, and
instead let the anti's turn red.
The point is that pks are like bacteria, they adapt to antibiotics(OSI
attempts to curb pking) irrespective of what is done to control them.
Reducing murder counts and increasing "jail time" is going to affect
-some- pks, but most pks who have been willing to go murderer have
tended to be the power-gammers who have 2 UO accounts running on
different PCs. In the end, its just going to make more people
frustrated because they cant take action against the npks(eg accept
murder counts and kill them) without suffering serious repercussions.
Twilight of Chesapeake
Sting Fletch
>Well, it happened again, strolling along minding my own business when I see
>"Lan the Warder is attacking you." Since there were also thre Orphidians
>attacking me at the same time and I had already been dead twice today (even I
>get tired of dying), I lit out.
>
I think I met their "twins"on Cats yesterday. Sting was in combat with
three Orphidians, down to half life, when along came two blues. Great,
he thought, "help at last!" Then the inevitable "AzzMunch is attacking
you!"
The worst effect of plue PK's is the mistrust it creates. It is
destroying the role playing opportunities (what few there are). I
believe that is the exact opposite effect DD was striving for with the
new rep system. Funny how many times it works out that way - OSI puts
in a fix for a problem, and it worsens. On a positive note, I believe
that the basic mechanism is in place with the new rep system, it just
needs some serious tweeking. Hopefully it will get tweeked before all
players develop mistrust to the point where nobody speaks to anybody.
I had my first prolonged conversation with a stranger in a LONG time
at the Brit bank yesterday. Like Pavlov's dogs, I had become
conditioned to keep my distance from anybody at the bank due to the
thief problem. Bank theives do seem to have been reduced, thus
increasing the RP opportunies.
Hopefully OSI will adopt some of your (and other) suggestions and
reduce blue PK's before role playing becomes entirely non-existant.
Sting Fletch, Archer (Catskills)
Time wounds all heels
Harold Roberson
this 3 murders a day shit is a bunch of shit. hehe.. uh, I got
a bit redundant there...
A red murderer is a rare site these days.
Unfortunately, asking Raph to do anything is like pissing
into the wind. He's the guy who thinks 3 murders a day is
an acceptable rate. He's the guy who wants to add those
damned random skill delays to Tailoring, Carpentry, and
Tinkering.. just to make a boring tedious skill, even more
boring and tedious. Oh, but snooping and stealing are
just fine the way they are.
Damn designers.
bigb...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Well, it happened again, strolling along minding my own business when I see
> "Lan the Warder is attacking you." Since there were also thre Orphidians
> attacking me at the same time and I had already been dead twice today (even I
> get tired of dying), I lit out.
>
Harold Roberson
to do a tad more than a little tweeking. Well, actually not.
reduce the count to 3 or 2 to become a murderer, and increase
the atrophy rate atleast 3-6 times what it currently is. At
some point, the murders never atrophy either... you become a
permanent murderer.
Sting Fletch wrote:
>
> On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 03:49:43 GMT, bigb...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >Well, it happened again, strolling along minding my own business when I see
> >"Lan the Warder is attacking you." Since there were also thre Orphidians
> >attacking me at the same time and I had already been dead twice today (even I
> >get tired of dying), I lit out.
> >
Jadesfyre
me
>some warning and put things on a level playing field. As it is, the bliue
PK
>ALWAYS gets the first shot and that can be crucial. If I see red, I can
run,
>fight, hide, whatever just like I do when I see that orc mage.
>
>Does anyone else agree with me? Ralph, what do you think?
>
>Big Ed the Bad
>Blue PK'd again
>
Also....When is fighting using magic going to be allowed in town??? My mage
could not do anything against a thief,hider,archer when he ran into town. I
had to recall away.
Btw, if a player has attacked or thieved, he is perma flagged. So you can
attack him even though he appears blue. When you attack him, you will get
the warning that you may go gray but he will be the one to be flagged gray
to you. You won't go gray or get guard whacked. If you see the bad dude
in town, you can attack him and not be worried about the guard unless the
bad dude had died after his bad deeds which would clear his slate.
Jadesfyre
(correct me if I'm wrong here)
flister john m.
The gist of it is that you have to assume the other player is a blue PK.
You cannot put yourself in a vulnerable position that the potential PK can
exploit. I know I am going to get flamed, but here it is:
you are deep in the bowels of deciet, hammering liches and shades
for the unholy riches you can gain. you are surrounded by evil,
and living on the edge. you wonder if you can plunder this fell
area and escape unscathed. into the room comes HeLLNight. you
suspect, based on his name, that he is not to friendly. you check
the aether for his reputation, which is malicious. He is unarmed,
but not casting spells at the creatures, or is armed with a
crossbow and never engages anything. he asks you for pearl. he
might stand near you for a second and make a quick kung-fu like
move, then move away. put 100 gold from your locked chest on your
main backpack level, to tempt him to steal. soon you will confirm
your doubts that HeLLNight is a cowardly wretch, but hey, you are
in a dungeon after all, it ain't all fun and games.
Yes, something needs to be done, because the first shot advantage is
important if your character still aspires to be heroic. One of my
favorite tricks is the "lost connection" appearence. Just stand in the
same place, don't move, don't talk, and be prepared to destroy the fool
who attacks thinking you have lost connection (and don't forget to leave
that 100 gold on you backpacks main level).
If it is one on one, fight! If it's two on one use deadly poison!,
anymore than that, run, hands down.
Doom
On Mon, 30
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|Pks will ALWAYS ALWAYS find ways to circumvent the latest method to
|control their behaviour in game.
No, they won't. PvP switches have been used successfully in the past.
Certainly well enough to reduce the problem to tolerable levels.
Philo Marx
with just some minor tweaking. Permanent murder counts, longer murder counts,
murderer status after just 2 kills, all these would work to ebb the problem. I
would just like to be able to tell the good and the bad guys apart for once.
It makes me sad, because UO is the only one of the Ultima games that actually
rewards the miscreants and dastards, it seems really unpure in that way. I
remeber in ultima 4 when i'd lie to the blind reagent salesman and get mondo cheap
pearls, i'd pay for it by never being able to accomplish the honesty portion of my
quest. Now, lying and cheating is the only way to rule in this game. If i wasn't
so addicted I'd quit. (figure that one out)
bigb...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Well, it happened again, strolling along minding my own business when I see
> "Lan the Warder is attacking you." Since there were also thre Orphidians
> attacking me at the same time and I had already been dead twice today (even I
> get tired of dying), I lit out.
>
> I come back, scout around, and there he is. Into combat mode, target him and
> he is BLUE. Well, he attacks me and we have at it and he kills me. Guess
> what he says after I die, "You suck, hehe". So I report him and put no
> bounty (why should I waste my hard earned money on these scum).
>
> Now, I can be a little hard to take some times but I didn't say one word to
> this guy. I didn't even see him the first time he attacked me so this is
> definately not a case of Big Ed's Big Mouth getting him killed. So, if this
> guy attacks me out of the blue, you know I am not the first.
>
> OSI, when are we going to do something about murderers that we can't attack.
>
> I say two murders in a 24 hour period make you perma-flagged red until you
> DIE. One murder a day is fine, there are plenty of jerks out there that need
> killing just for breathing. Screw stat loss, even murderers work hard for
> their stats but damm it, if you want to be a murderer, suffer the
> consequences.
>
> I got no problem with a red guy, me and him might fight but at least I can
> respect him in the morning.
>
> You all know how I feel about dying, it aint' no big deal but at least give me
> some warning and put things on a level playing field. As it is, the bliue PK
> ALWAYS gets the first shot and that can be crucial. If I see red, I can run,
> fight, hide, whatever just like I do when I see that orc mage.
>
> Does anyone else agree with me? Ralph, what do you think?
>
> Big Ed the Bad
> Blue PK'd again
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
Veil Moonblade <Catskills>
- Elvish Hunter
a.k.a.
Chthonic Dragon <-=UDIC=->
- ingester of all things eldritch
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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The Philosopher Primus
> The worst effect of plue PK's is the mistrust it creates. It is
> destroying the role playing opportunities (what few there are). I
> believe that is the exact opposite effect DD was striving for with the
> new rep system. Funny how many times it works out that way - OSI puts
> in a fix for a problem, and it worsens.
This is because they try to be devious about it. They will not attack the problem
directly, or even admit it is a problem. They want to treat the minority (it only
Seems like a majority) who are such jerks as if they are the real income source
for OS. They will give no real advantages to being Good, or help us really
recognize who is bad. We tell them what is really needed, and they will not give
it. Our ideas are NIH (not invented here), and thus not to be used.
We will see how Sony behaves in this regard (they own EQ).
> On a positive note, I believe that the basic mechanism is in place with the new
> rep system, it just
> needs some serious tweeking.
DD said he was thinking about it. He has been thinking about it now for months.
We have been demanding the changes (red at 3 not 5, longer macro-off times or
sliding scale, serious difficulties for reds and grays), and he simply will not
act. He regards the jerks as just as valid a group as the majority. Those who
stay with UO will see how he responds once most of us are gone and the jerks
truely Are the majority, completing the mass exodus from his dream world.
> Hopefully it will get tweeked before all players develop mistrust to the point
> where nobody speaks to anybody.
Before? I have long assumed that everyone who approaches whom I do not know is
going to attack, and take appropriate steps until they show their good intent, and
then I remain on guard. when someone resses me and helps get my stuff back, then
I begin to trust them.
> I had my first prolonged conversation with a stranger in a LONGtime at the Brit
> bank yesterday. Like Pavlov's dogs, I had become conditioned to keep my distance
> from anybody at the bank due to the thief problem. Bank theives do seem to have
> been reduced, thus increasing the RP opportunies.
A smart manager at OS would look at this and say, "Now we'll do the same without
out-of-town jerks, and nail down even more loyal customers." But where are the
smart managers at OS?
> Hopefully OSI will adopt some of your (and other) suggestions and reduce blue
> PK's before role playing becomes entirely non-existant.
It won't become non-existant. We will just go to EQ and do it there.
Nelson
argument. If the non-pk players of this NG has been able to list the
various means by which the switch can be circumvented, I hesitate to
guess what regular readers of SkunkWorkz and UOShack can learn and
proliferate to their fellow power-gammers.
Twilight of Chesapeake
The Philosopher Primus
> Well, I agree that the basics are in place, but they need
> to do a tad more than a little tweeking. Well, actually not.
> reduce the count to 3 or 2 to become a murderer, and increase
> the atrophy rate atleast 3-6 times what it currently is. At
> some point, the murders never atrophy either... you become a
> permanent murderer.
This would have much the same effect as Life Without Parole. That is, the subject
becomes completely uncontrollable, having nothing to lose. I am loath to ever
completely shut the door on anyone, even the most heinous of jerks, because if you
do that they have no way back, and so no reason to consider giving up being jerks.
I believe the sliding scale of count-off times would be the best way to deal with
penalizing murderers (in addition to giving some genuine advantages for being
Good). The first murder takes 8 hours to go away. Second takes more (whatever
number you feel good about). Third still more, etc, with a formula that imposes
ever greater penalties for more murders.
Also to consider is, for purposes of that, do old murders count? If you did 10, but
4 went away, do we count 6 in considering the sliding scale, or all 10? Actually I
would prefer a compromise, so it is better to work off some murders, but they still
count for something, slowing down the murder rate a bit, but still imposing a
penalty.
None of this should take more than an hour to code. I have suggested it to DD more
than once. There has been no response.
The Philosopher Primus
> The problem is this:
>
> Pks will ALWAYS ALWAYS find ways to circumvent the latest method to
> control their behaviour in game.
This defeatist argument is extremely easy to refute. Suppose you have a rule that
murdering any player automatically deletes your account. Simple as that. No way
around that. A little knowledge and discipline to avoid letting them attack you
without penalty, and they cannot do so without being destroyed. They don't dare
attack you for fear that you would get away and suicide to destroy them.
DD would rather eat shit than implement such a measure, but there is no way around
it. Another account? that gets expensive, and there is no gain from having done
the murder in the first place.
Less drastice measures could also be implemented which, even if not perfect, would
serve to reduce the rule of jerks. Again, DD just does not want to do it. That's
why we get these half-assed steps, because he wants to try and keep both groups sort
of half satisfied, to keep that $10 a month coming.
There is a limit to this, but all OS heads seem to be under the sand about that.
> Under the new reputation system, they've learned how to manipulate the murder
> count system, so that they can stay blue most of the time, and instead let the
> anti's turn red.
Simply removing PvP thieving from the game would eliminate a lot of that. Removing
crim flagging from the act of someone running into your firefield or BS would do so
too (this was done to stop pk from using such spells to block an innocent into
fighting with a monster they wanted to get away from, but who ever is killed from
trying to escape through a FF?).
> The point is that pks are like bacteria, they adapt to antibiotics(OSI attempts to
> curb pking) irrespective of what is done to control them.
The analogy goes farther. This happens only when the application of antibiotics is
not strong enough. Increase the initial dose, use multiple types, and you kill them
all. The reason we are losing the battle with jerks is the reason for the loss in
Vietnam, half-assed measures which are not designed to win. OS does not want the
battle to be won. They believe there is more money in letting both sides be
dissatisfied. They hav a surprise coming.
> Reducing murder counts and increasing "jail time" is going to affect -some- pks,
> but most pks who have been willing to go murderer have tended to be the
> power-gammers who have 2 UO accounts running on
> different PCs.
What is your source for that information? I have not seen anything from anyone
claiming to actually do it.
> In the end, its just going to make more people frustrated because they cant take
> action against the npks(eg accept murder counts and kill them) without suffering
> serious repercussions.
Everyone (excepting those few who claim to be able to kill jerks at will) who is not
a jerk is already frustrated. Things are unacceptable as they are. Something needs
to change.
The Philosopher Primus
> Btw, if a player has attacked or thieved, he is perma flagged. So you can
> attack him even though he appears blue.
But you don't know that unless you saw him do the act, or you try it and see
(possibly getting guardwhacked). This rediculous idea that he is criminal but
you are not allowed to actually know it is worthless. It is a free pass to
steal.
The Philosopher Primus
> Yup the noteriety sytem is majorly messed up, and it could be made 300% better
> with just some minor tweaking. Permanent murder counts, longer murder counts,
> murderer status after just 2 kills, all these would work to ebb the problem. I
> would just like to be able to tell the good and the bad guys apart for once.
Even with a lower Red count, you can still kill without going red. So someone sees
you a minute later, you are gray, but most people do not attack grays on sight. For a
murder, regardless of count, during that 2 minutes (or perhaps 5 or 10 minutes) you
should be red. Or at least pink. It's the victim's blood on you.
> It makes me sad, because UO is the only one of the Ultima games that actually
> rewards the miscreants and dastards, it seems really unpure in that way.
It's DD's dream.
Gresh
Perma-flag is a two-edged sword. Sure, it's hard to tell if someone
is flagged and therefore fair game. But a lot of obvious candidates
really ARE flagged and therefore fair game. You don't want to test
everyone in town of course, but I have begun recalling into mining
areas, going into war mode, and dbl-clicking every likely candidate
(white death robe, stupid name, real miners spouting streams of
invectives at said candidate). The worst thing that happens is a lot
of miner's piss their pants because an apparent tank mage on a horse
is "attacking" them from across the screen, and I turn grey. The best
that can happen is I don't turn grey, and get to whallop a thief.
Gresh, Catskills
Nelson
>
> This defeatist argument is extremely easy to refute. Suppose you have a rule that
> murdering any player automatically deletes your account. Simple as that. No way
Ok........
> around that. A little knowledge and discipline to avoid letting them attack you
> without penalty, and they cannot do so without being destroyed. They don't dare
> attack you for fear that you would get away and suicide to destroy them.
You mean they wont dare to attack you directly. Pking indirectly would
exempt them from any hypothetical punishments.
> Simply removing PvP thieving from the game would eliminate a lot of that. Removing
> crim flagging from the act of someone running into your firefield or BS would do so
> too (this was done to stop pk from using such spells to block an innocent into
> fighting with a monster they wanted to get away from, but who ever is killed from
> trying to escape through a FF?).
Oh goodie, let's go back to the days when people could firefield dungeon
entrances(several players died btw, and complained about it here in this
very NG), or cast EV in the midst of a crowded room. No criminal flag,
no karma loss, fun.
> They believe there is more money in letting both sides be
> dissatisfied. They hav a surprise coming.
Which is....?
>
> What is your source for that information? I have not seen anything from anyone
> claiming to actually do it.
Undertaker boasted about it a couple of times(Havent seen his posts
since I got back though), and I've seen countless pk posts on UO message
boards. If you doubt me, just swing by CoB and ask. Its actually more
prevalent than most people thin.
> Things are unacceptable as they are. Something needs
> to change.
No, they are unacceptable to -you-. I and many others do not feel the
same.
Twilight of Chesapeake
Nelson
> but most people do not attack grays on sight. For a
> murder,
Which server do you play on? I invite you to stop by Chesapeake and
turn grey in the midst of any bank.
Twilight of Chesapeake
Meldur
> If you see the bad dude
>in town, you can attack him and not be worried about the guard unless the
>bad dude had died after his bad deeds which would clear his slate.
How can you be sure that it is the same guy?
It is possible that it is another player with the same name!
Meldur on D'fels
Meldur
> Into combat mode, target him and
>he is BLUE. Well, he attacks me and we have at it and he kills me.
Worst aspect here is,that my trust in other blue players has become
totally destroyed in the 6 months I play UO.Usually I hunt alone and
if I see any other player I recall,because opening their paperdolls
and looking on their titles may take too long.
Meldur on D'fels
Andrew & Nancy Curtis
flister john m. wrote:
> Well (gives the Ronald Reagan head tilt)
>
> The gist of it is that you have to assume the other player is a blue PK.
> You cannot put yourself in a vulnerable position that the potential PK can
> exploit. I know I am going to get flamed, but here it is:
>
> (stuff removed)
>
> If it is one on one, fight! If it's two on one use deadly poison!,
> anymore than that, run, hands down.
>
> Doom
> On Mon, 30
> Nov 1998, Jadesfyre wrote:
No flame but this works only for the blatent PKrs. There are many devious PKrs
out there that there is no defense-for example: I was in a dungeon
and saw someone run by me. After the standard "wait to see if they come back" I
started to cast a blade spirits spell on a monster. In the middle of my cast the
PKr came back into the screen and hit me three times before I could even start a
recall to escape. The PKr was not only Blue but also had an emminent tag (one
away from a Lord/Lady in fame). It is possible that the person was using a cheat
program because I was hit with 3 ebolts before my blade-spirit spell was done
casting but it was still a scenario where there was nothing I could do to defend
myself either during or before the attack. I do think PKrs add to the game but
the blue-PKr has an unfair advantage because of many of the points mentioned in
this thread. Something should be done. I still think an NPC bounty hunter would
be a pretty cool idea-I don't know the logistics but it would make the hunters
hunted!!
The Philosopher Primus
> How long should the flag last? 8 hours? 12 hours? I can macro as long as
> you would like to get the murder counts off and that is exactly why 90% of
> the PK are blue.
>
> They got the flag by killing, they should die to get rid of it. Of course,
> then they would just suicide and be right back at it.
With a minimum 10% stat/skill loss, no problem.
Jeff Gentry
: Worst aspect here is,that my trust in other blue players has become
: totally destroyed in the 6 months I play UO.Usually I hunt alone and
: if I see any other player I recall,because opening their paperdolls
: and looking on their titles may take too long.
Don't you mean their characters? Do you actually see many
UO Players while playing UO? :)
Hehehe sorry :)
Loki Dahlmarth, LS
jedw...@sos.state.tx.us
dfra...@email.com (Dennis Francis Heffernan) wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 03:49:43 GMT, bigb...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
>
> Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
> "And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
> when Victoria reigned." -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
>
How long should the flag last? 8 hours? 12 hours? I can macro as long as
you would like to get the murder counts off and that is exactly why 90% of
the PK are blue.
They got the flag by killing, they should die to get rid of it. Of course,
then they would just suicide and be right back at it.
Hmmmm, not sure what the right solution is.
Big Ed the Bad
jedw...@sos.state.tx.us
The Philosopher Primus <He...@Fight.SPAM> wrote:
> Nelson wrote:
>
> > The problem is this:
> >
> > Pks will ALWAYS ALWAYS find ways to circumvent the latest method to
> > control their behaviour in game.
>
that
> murdering any player automatically deletes your account. Simple as that. No
way
I have never been against PK who obey the rules. If you murder for a living,
you target red. PKing is a part of this game and I would not want it to go
away. I would get bored real quick of just killing monsters.
But, Blue PK are another story all together. All I want them to do is follow
the rules. All I want OSI to do is enforce them.
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|How long should the flag last?
Forever.
Someone murders you, they are your bitch until they delete the character.
Jeff Gentry
: Someone murders you, they are your bitch until they delete the characte
Hmmm. That's pretty much how I operate now. Why change the system? :)
Loki Dahlmarth, LS
flister john m.
Doom.
Jeff Gentry
: The only thing I'd disagree with is that "the bliue (hmmm) PK always
: gets the first shot"..... well, maybe the first time. Next time <I>
Not to mention the fact that 'first shot' means very little.
Loki Dahlmarth, LS
Jonathan Aitken
between a successful recall and death.
Otara, Napa
ja...@my-dejanews.com
jedw...@sos.state.tx.us wrote:
> In article <36635b1d.26240505@news>,
> dfra...@email.com (Dennis Francis Heffernan) wrote:
> > On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 03:49:43 GMT, bigb...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > |Does anyone else agree with me? Ralph, what do you think?
> >
> > Get rid of the "until you die" part.
> >
> > Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
> > "And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
> > when Victoria reigned." -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
> >
>
7 Real World Days!!!
ja...@my-dejanews.com
for their crime.
If they kill: $1,000 fine
If they take $500gp from you: They must pay double
that back to you to get off of crimimal status.
If they take a magic shield: They must return it
(or give equiv. gold) to be Blue again.
Take away the PROFIT from PKing and it stops!!!
JadeM †
ALIA: "And how can this be?…"
ALIA: "For, he IS the Kwisatz Haderach!"
In article <3666560e.39381458@news>,
dfra...@email.com (Dennis Francis Heffernan) wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 01:34:56 GMT, jedw...@sos.state.tx.us wrote:
>
> |How long should the flag last?
>
> Forever.
>
> Someone murders you, they are your bitch until they delete the
character.
>
> Dennis F. Heffernan UO: Venture (Catskills) dfra...@email.com
> Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
> "And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
> when Victoria reigned." -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
TC
half your gold and an ear. After you get to a high enough level (10+) gold
is easy enough to acquire so losing half of what you have on you becomes an
annoyance more than anything.
IMHO, I think that PKing is more about control and less about profit. I
think some PKers enjoy the challenge of going up against human controlled
characters since the monster AI is fairly weak. I think some PKers like to
be A-holes, nothing you can do about that!!
I would like to see changes to the Rep system that would allow easier
identification of Pkers and better forms of retaliation. Usually I recall or
run if the odds are against me (ie more than 1 PKer) and it has been a while
since I have been Pk'd.
--
Cheers
TC - aka Aegis of Moonglow, Sonoma.
cla...@dontneedit.earthlink.net
Please remove "dontneedit" from the reply email address
to respond directly to me.....
ja...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <741u3i$b5v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
bigb...@my-dejanews.com
dfra...@email.com (Dennis Francis Heffernan) wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 01:34:56 GMT, jedw...@sos.state.tx.us wrote:
>
> |How long should the flag last?
>
> Forever.
>
> Someone murders you, they are your bitch until they delete the
character.
>
> Dennis F. Heffernan UO: Venture (Catskills) dfra...@email.com
> Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
> "And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
> when Victoria reigned." -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
>
Let's be fair. Killing people is part of the game. Once again, I don't have
a problem with murderers, just those that don't follow the rules. They
should be flagged red to me until I kill them.
An eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life.
Big Ed the Bad
bigb...@my-dejanews.com
ja...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I think it should last until they make amends
> for their crime.
>
> If they kill: $1,000 fine
>
> If they take $500gp from you: They must pay double
> that back to you to get off of crimimal status.
>
> If they take a magic shield: They must return it
> (or give equiv. gold) to be Blue again.
>
> Take away the PROFIT from PKing and it stops!!!
>
> JadeM †
>
killing other people is about POWER. I killed you that means I am better,
smarter, prettier, tougher, more POWERFUL than you. Power - no matter what
anyone says, that is the main reason people PK.
Raph Koster
>DD said he was thinking about it. He has been thinking about it now for months.
>We have been demanding the changes (red at 3 not 5, longer macro-off times or
>sliding scale, serious difficulties for reds and grays), and he simply will not
>act.
Quite simply, there are priorities, and that's not as high up as
getting this house ownership thing sorted out. It's that simple. It's
not from lack of desire to implement the changes.
There IS quite a lot of resistance to lowering the murder count (Mage
Tower regulars are an example--they rely on that buffer to defend the
premises from people killing the reds to whom they have granted
sanctuary. And before you say, "well, they are helping PKers!"--that's
their roleplay, that the Mage Tower is a place of retreat and study
and sanctuary. A valid roleplay, IMHO). Personally, I like the sliding
scale (and the "tally total murders ever") things better...
> He regards the jerks as just as valid a group as the majority.
Uh, no. :P
-Raph Koster
Lead Designer, Ultima Online
bigb...@my-dejanews.com
gen...@rpi.edu (Jeff Gentry) wrote:
> bizbee (tub...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : The only thing I'd disagree with is that "the bliue (hmmm) PK always
> : gets the first shot"..... well, maybe the first time. Next time <I>
>
> Not to mention the fact that 'first shot' means very little.
>
> Loki Dahlmarth, LS
>
When they are using a bow, first shot is not that important. When the first
shot is a flame strike, it means a lot. When three of then hit you at once,
you go from 80 str to 8. How much chance do you have then.
I admit, I am a trusting soul. That is my greatest strength and my greatest
weakness. I expect other people to act with honor and respect when they
exibitit a positive title, isn't that what a positive title means? No flames,
I'm being sarcastic but that is my whole point. When I walk up to "The Famed
Lan the Warder" and he targets blue, I shouldn't get an ebolt up my ass for
saying "Hail".
Make the game behave the way it was designed, that is all I ask.
Jeff Gentry
: When they are using a bow, first shot is not that important. When the first
: shot is a flame strike, it means a lot. When three of then hit you at once,
: you go from 80 str to 8. How much chance do you have then.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Living through the notoriety
system as a non-pking red (thus - i had no desire to go dread, and thus
only attacked a blue first if there was no other way), I gave up first
shot about 90% of the time. I tended to do better in those fights. Its
more a matter of getting used to it I suppose. Sure - getting hit
w/ 3 FS's or 5 EB's all at once sucks ... however I'm talking about
in a 1 on 1 situation. Especially in today's world where no spell is
real "killer" (as opposed to 100 point ebolts, 80 point lightning bolts,
etc that a GM mage has wielded over UO history) ... you have time
to react, *if* you're on your toes.
: I admit, I am a trusting soul. That is my greatest strength and my greatest
: weakness. I expect other people to act with honor and respect when they
: exibitit a positive title, isn't that what a positive title means? No flames
: I'm being sarcastic but that is my whole point. When I walk up to "The Famed
: Lan the Warder" and he targets blue, I shouldn't get an ebolt up my ass for
: saying "Hail".
Fully agree. To be honest, I'd probably have been just as trusting unless
I had a reason not to be (Hell, I was trusting as a red in the note
system, when pretty much anyone could attack me at will - since very
few reds were non-dread, and any blue/grey could attack me). But, then
again, it happens every day (and as much as I hate "RL" arguements)
in RL that we are deceived by people's names, faces & appearances.
I normally judge people by their name first, then their title and/or
their appearance. Although, my title-judgements tend to be different
than what they're supposed to map to, but still, it tends to be pretty
effective in dealing with people (my system).
Loki dahlmarth, LS
Harold Roberson
Raph Koster wrote:
>
>
> There IS quite a lot of resistance to lowering the murder count (Mage
> Tower regulars are an example--they rely on that buffer to defend the
> premises from people killing the reds to whom they have granted
> sanctuary. And before you say, "well, they are helping PKers!"--that's
> their roleplay, that the Mage Tower is a place of retreat and study
> and sanctuary. A valid roleplay, IMHO). Personally, I like the sliding
> scale (and the "tally total murders ever") things better...
>
> -Raph Koster
> Lead Designer, Ultima Online
While that's all very well and nice, your example leaves a bit
to be desired. You wish to allow tons of random murders, so that
some blue people can protect Red Murderers???
Excuse me. REALITY CHECK! Normally such activity is considered
a crime (felony actually) and those doing the protecting are taken
down along with the criminals.
If this is the best you can come up with as a reason for not lowering
murder count and raising the atrophy time, then that speaks volumes
about you and your ideals. If I meet up with blues who are protecting
Red Murderers, you can bet your ass I'll be killing those sons of
bitches
as well as the reds.
nuff said.
Bob Roland
>. Personally, I like the sliding
> scale (and the "tally total murders ever") things better...
>
> -Raph Koster
> Lead Designer, Ultima Online
Oh yes! yes! yes!
(heart stops beating)
Whew.....
Wonder if it would actually happen. Actually, I tend to think that a
sliding scale and turning stealing into an agressive act (thus closing
the "Tank Thief" loophole) would go a long way in alleviateing the games
problems with PKs.
Please do it DD!
Great Bob
flister john m.
Mr. Koster:
I know your job is complicated and no matter what you do someone will be
ignorant and say something just to make your day a little merrier. I
appreciate your efforts in developing ultima. I appreciate that you take
the time to respond to many of the rants and ugly posts on this NG.
The three free kills arrangement is a bad one. You have seen post after
post on it, so I won't blah blah blah you again. In the post below you
identify a valid roleplaying application "buffer". Question: how many
people out there are protecting the mage tower?. Refined question: 20 of
your customers roleplay defending the evil mages. 2,000 of your customers
request that the "buffer" be removed to prevent "bloo pk" (heh, boo! I am
gonna pk you!). What should you do?
In the posts on the webpage of OSI, the golden rule: "if your heart is
true don't kill blue".
The reality: go ahead and kill blues, especially if you are a roleplayer.
Constant mixed signals.
Second issue:
To play ultima you have to be 18?. This cannot be enforced, and is one of
the primary reasons so many Kew's are out there ruining the lands of UO.
Why bother having the stipulation in your rules?.
Yesterday evening I ran into Simon, who was engaged with an ettin. Simon
was down to half-life, and killed the ettin. I asked simon:
"question. why are you titled masta killa? what does this mean?" Simon
replied that he did not know, that is what his guild named him. My heart
was true, and I did not kill blue. I exercised the roleplaying muscle.
Is UO, once and for all, designed to be for roleplayers, or for player vs.
player combat? Answer Please.
Doom
On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Raph Koster wrote:
> The Philosopher Primus <He...@Fight.SPAM> wrote:
>
>
> >DD said he was thinking about it. He has been thinking about it now for months.
> >We have been demanding the changes (red at 3 not 5, longer macro-off times or
> >sliding scale, serious difficulties for reds and grays), and he simply will not
> >act.
>
> Quite simply, there are priorities, and that's not as high up as
> getting this house ownership thing sorted out. It's that simple. It's
> not from lack of desire to implement the changes.
>
> There IS quite a lot of resistance to lowering the murder count (Mage
> Tower regulars are an example--they rely on that buffer to defend the
> premises from people killing the reds to whom they have granted
> sanctuary. And before you say, "well, they are helping PKers!"--that's
> their roleplay, that the Mage Tower is a place of retreat and study
> and sanctuary. A valid roleplay, IMHO). Personally, I like the sliding
> scale (and the "tally total murders ever") things better...
>
> > He regards the jerks as just as valid a group as the majority.
>
> Uh, no. :P
>
flister john m.
On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Harold Roberson wrote:
>
>
> Raph Koster wrote:
> >
> >
> > There IS quite a lot of resistance to lowering the murder count (Mage
> > Tower regulars are an example--they rely on that buffer to defend the
> > premises from people killing the reds to whom they have granted
> > sanctuary. And before you say, "well, they are helping PKers!"--that's
> > their roleplay, that the Mage Tower is a place of retreat and study
> > and sanctuary. A valid roleplay, IMHO). Personally, I like the sliding
> > scale (and the "tally total murders ever") things better...
> >
>
> > -Raph Koster
> > Lead Designer, Ultima Online
>
Jeff Gentry
: people out there are protecting the mage tower?. Refined question: 20 of
: your customers roleplay defending the evil mages. 2,000 of your customers
: request that the "buffer" be removed to prevent "bloo pk" (heh, boo! I am
2,000 is also a small fraction of their customer base.
You have to remember that this NG is very "peacenik-centric" ... the
demographics you see here on opinions are *not* indicitave of "the average
player".
Loki Dahlmarth, LS
Dundee
<fli...@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
>The three free kills arrangement is a bad one.
It doesn't matter whether it is three, five or ten. The blue-pks will
hit that limit in one day, and then they are at the
one-kill-per-eight-hours line. And they will stay on that line. You
can *easily* burn your three "freebies" in a single encounter with
morons.
If anything needs to be adjusted, it is the rate at which kills
attrophy. If one kill per eight hours translates to too many kills,
then it should be changed to one per 16 or 24 or 28 or *whatever*.
And looters need to be perma-flagged like thieves.
And killers need to be perma-flagged like thieves.
My two cents, anyhow.
>To play ultima you have to be 18?.
Nope. You just have to be 18 to open an account.
--
Dundee of Lake Superior - Skep...@SPAMISantisocial.com
The Town of Skara Brae: http://members.xoom.com/skara/
UO related stuff: http://dundee.uong.com
Dundee
wrote:
>There IS quite a lot of resistance to lowering the murder count
I don't think lowering it will make any difference. Increasing the
atrophy time might. Otherwise they are still killing one-per-eight
hours, just as they are now.
And give them the perma-flag for killing and taking ALL of a persons
stuff, just as thieves get for stealing one small thing. I mean this
more than anything else makes no sense to me. You snatch a rune and
you're grey til you die, but kill someone and take *everything* and
it's two-minutes of hiding for you.
Permaflag looters and permaflag people when they get reported for
murder.
>(Mage Tower regulars are an example--they rely on that buffer to defend the
>premises from people killing the reds to whom they have granted
>sanctuary. And before you say, "well, they are helping PKers!"--that's
>their roleplay,
Even though I'm not especially in favor of lowering the number of
freebie-kills, I think that may be the worst possible example. "Valid
roleplay" or not - killing innocents (whether you are doing it to
defend murderers or not) SHOULD make you a murderer.
>that the Mage Tower is a place of retreat and study
>and sanctuary. A valid roleplay, IMHO).
Unless they were granted a license to kill innocents, then they are
under the same laws as the rest of us, and killing innocents is
supposed to make you a murderer, regardless what excuse, and
roleplayed or not.
Or have you revised the rep' system now so that reds can be attacked
without penalty, *except* at the mage tower?
The Philosopher Primus
> Raph Koster wrote:
>
> > There IS quite a lot of resistance to lowering the murder count (Mage
> > Tower regulars are an example--they rely on that buffer to defend the
> > premises from people killing the reds to whom they have granted
> > sanctuary. And before you say, "well, they are helping PKers!"--that's
> > their roleplay, that the Mage Tower is a place of retreat and study
> > and sanctuary. A valid roleplay, IMHO).
< The signs of an imminent explosion are seen. >
> > Personally, I like the sliding
> > scale (and the "tally total murders ever") things better...
Thank you. Want to discuss it more?
> > -Raph Koster
>
> While that's all very well and nice, your example leaves a bit
> to be desired. You wish to allow tons of random murders, so that
> some blue people can protect Red Murderers???
< The explosion begins to build. >
> Excuse me. REALITY CHECK! Normally such activity is considered
> a crime (felony actually) and those doing the protecting are taken
> down along with the criminals.
BOOM!
> If this is the best you can come up with as a reason for not lowering murder
> count and raising the atrophy time, then that speaks volumes about you and
> your ideals. If I meet up with blues who are protecting Red Murderers, you
> can bet your ass I'll be killing those sons of bitches as well as the reds.
It has been clear for a long time where Raph's friends are. This situation
will last until EQ takes off.
Raph, your friends at this Mage Tower, can they carry the company? Pay all the
bills and show a profit? Because that's what it's going to take. Your totally
displaced loyalties ARE going to kill the company otherwise.
The Philosopher Primus
> Mr. Koster had to be trolling or something. I don't get it either.
No, I can believe him in this. He really does seem to have friends in the
wrong places, and looks out for them entirely too well. Unquestionably, he has
never had to scramble to find rent money, and does not understand the simple
economic reality which says, WE pay to run his company, not THEM.
The Philosopher Primus
> {snip of very good, to-the-point description of The Problem}
> Is UO, once and for all, designed to be for roleplayers, or for player vs. player
> combat? Answer Please.
The sad answer is, it is designed to get the $10 a month from everyone who will pay
it. The belief is that if they keep everyone a bit unhappy they will keep the most
players, and make the most money. Therefore they will not do anything to piss off the
jerks.
They cannot seem to understand that once there is anything else for us to play, that
their grab-all idea completely fails. Those who do not wish constant combat (or
cowering) will go away, then the predators will go away, and finally the PvP'ers will
go away. There will be no one left to pay the bills. No one.
Jeff Gentry
: It has been clear for a long time where Raph's friends are. This situation
: will last until EQ takes off.
Yes ... roleplayers.
: Raph, your friends at this Mage Tower, can they carry the company? Pay all t
: bills and show a profit? Because that's what it's going to take. Your total
: displaced loyalties ARE going to kill the company otherwise.
Primus ... you and your peacenik friends ... can you carry the company?
pay all the bills and show a profit? Because that's what it's going to take.
You have to understand that the 'average player' is by no means as anti-PVP
as you are.
Loki Dahlmarth, LS
Jeff Gentry
: Even though I'm not especially in favor of lowering the number of
: freebie-kills, I think that may be the worst possible example. "Valid
: roleplay" or not - killing innocents (whether you are doing it to
: defend murderers or not) SHOULD make you a murderer.
His point, I think, was that people other than PKs not only don't agree with
lowering the freebie-kills, but support increasing it. This is
what I've been trying to say here for a while - that people who are
actually valid people (ie they are positive influences in the UO community)
desire a larger freebie-kill amount. A lot of the NGies here seem to
think that if you don't want freebies gone altogether, you must be MasTaKillA.
I odn't think anyone is trying to argue that killing innocents shouldn't
make you murder. The reason the Mage Tower people (and not just Mage
Tower - this happens at any RP'd establishment) complain is because the
"good guys" according to the system are *not* roleplayers ... they're
being penalyzed for roleplaying, essentially. If the people attacking
the tower were RPing, it'd be a different story.
I've been to the Tower on LS now and again ... one night I went red
defending it from people trying to ruin the event that night. Well,
later that night some Tower regulars came up and started attacking me - for
being a "PK" ... their evidence/ I was red (never mind it was due to saving
their sorry asses). Thus, several *other* mage tower types attacked them or
healed me. Despite being part of the "Tower Community" - not everyone that
goes there understands its a roleplayed "neutral ground" ... they see red
and flip out.
This is all why I say that 5 probably isn't that bad of a number. On
one side you have the folks saying "lower it" ... on the other, you
have people who are just as valid in the UO community saying "raise it"
(again - valid meaning they contribute to UO in ways greater than
"u suk") ... 5 seems like a nice in between measure.
Loki Dahlmarth, LS
Raph Koster
>flister john m. wrote:
>> Mr. Koster had to be trolling or something. I don't get it either.
>No, I can believe him in this. He really does seem to have friends in the
>wrong places, and looks out for them entirely too well.
What I said was that there was considerable opposition to doing it. I
am sorry that you find the Mage Tower to be a PK organization. They
were just an example. They certainly aren't the only group opposed to
it. They also certainly aren't a PK group. I've seen plenty of people
arguing that 3 murder count will have no effect whatsoever since
players will simply shift to macroing off murders after every kill
instead.
> Unquestionably, he has
>never had to scramble to find rent money, and does not understand the simple
>economic reality which says, WE pay to run his company, not THEM.
*laugh* While I was in grad school, my wife and I lived on a combined
income of $7000 a year. I do know about scrambling for rent money. :)
Raph Koster
>Harold Roberson wrote:
>> > Personally, I like the sliding
>> > scale (and the "tally total murders ever") things better...
>Thank you. Want to discuss it more?
Sure.
Hopefully we can agree on the object: to ensure that killers are
flagged red, while good guys are not. Those in opposition to the
change to 3, or the slowing of decay of MC's, oppose it because they
don't feel it meets that objective, that it would flag those who kill
blue PKs too quickly, rather than flagging the true repeat killers.
>> > -Raph Koster
>>
>> While that's all very well and nice, your example leaves a bit
>> to be desired. You wish to allow tons of random murders, so that
>> some blue people can protect Red Murderers???
More like, blue people protect blue people from blue pkers. Many of
the public buildings are open to all; blue pkers come and attack, and
the defenders of the public building take on murder count to defend
them. Many of them go red as a result. In other words, the wrong
people get flagged murderers.
>Raph, your friends at this Mage Tower, can they carry the company? Pay all the
>bills and show a profit? Because that's what it's going to take. Your totally
>displaced loyalties ARE going to kill the company otherwise.
The loyalties are to those who are trying to kill murderers. Seems to
be the same place as YOUR loyalties, is it not?
The Philosopher Primus
> If anything needs to be adjusted, it is the rate at which kills
> attrophy. If one kill per eight hours translates to too many kills,
> then it should be changed to one per 16 or 24 or 28 or *whatever*.
Raph has [FINALLY] said he likes my sliding scale, where the first murder takes
8 hours to cook off, the second more, etc. He also says (vaguely) he likes
basing penalties on the total murder count ever instead of the current murder
count. These are good ideas, and now let's get him to take the steps.
> And looters need to be perma-flagged like thieves.
>
> And killers need to be perma-flagged like thieves.
And thieves need to be perma-dead, like pigs. :-)
Floyd Grubb
<rolan...@xplorenet.com> wrote:
>(heart stops beating)
>
Someone call 911! He's had a heart attack!
Sorry, could't resist.
How about: Attack ANY blue player, flags you as Grey to everyone. Do
anything to help a GREY or RED player, flags you grey, including all
beneficial spells (including duration spells that are still in effect
when the blue/grey transform occurs), healing skill, accepting a Trade
from the trade window or whatever. KILL any blue player, and you
become a murderer. No macroing it off. Forever after you ARE a
murderer.
With the guild war system and the Law/Chaos guilds and all the thieves
running around, there are PLENTY of opportunities for PvP without
becoming a Murderer. Anyone who is operating outside that system is a
Murderer and should be treated as such.
FWG aka Thales
Gresh
>
>Hopefully we can agree on the object: to ensure that killers are
>flagged red, while good guys are not. Those in opposition to the
>change to 3, or the slowing of decay of MC's, oppose it because they
>don't feel it meets that objective, that it would flag those who kill
>blue PKs too quickly, rather than flagging the true repeat killers.
I'll repeat my mantra here, in case it gets read: the ease of
macroing off a murder count is the single biggest problem in the
persistence of PKs remaining blue. As long as "time online" is the
only thing necessary to decrease your murder count, this problem will
remain. It won't matter one bit whether the count is 3 or 4 or 5, and
it will barely matter if the decay is increased, and it will barely
matter whether you have a separate "long term" murder counter.
Actually the latter might hurt guys like me, who kill a few
jerks/thieves/looters a week, whether they are blue at the time of
not.
One sample solution: have a murderer lose 2000 karma points, which
are tracked separately and which MUST be made up in addition to the 8
hour clock. That is one way to guarantee that the murderer is online
"actively" rather than asleep in his bed ... online and hopefully not
walking around harrassing people. Or make them kill a dragon or two
.. whatever ....
>More like, blue people protect blue people from blue pkers. Many of
>the public buildings are open to all; blue pkers come and attack, and
>the defenders of the public building take on murder count to defend
>them. Many of them go red as a result. In other words, the wrong
>people get flagged murderers.
That'd be a pretty damn unusual case in the new system. "the blue
pkers come and attack" - so they go grey, so the defenders DON'T get
murder counts. I think you are remembering what was an occasional
occurrence in the old system, where guards in player-run cities would
end up Dread Lords through defending the city ... the only way
"defenders" would get a murder count in the new system is if they
"defended" against "blue PKs" who basically taunted them or harrassed
them into attacking ... heck, just put them on ignore. Besides, with
Texas Law coming that changes that whole problem anyway.
Gresh, Catskills
Dundee
<He...@Fight.SPAM> wrote:
>> And looters need to be perma-flagged like thieves.
>>
>> And killers need to be perma-flagged like thieves.
>
>And thieves need to be perma-dead, like pigs. :-)
But we should be able to get hides from them.
Corwin of Amber (Wind Elders, ATL)
Personally I am glad you understand the dynamics involved with making
changes to the red flagging and murder counts, and that you are
working on ways to make sure that the bad guys are the ones getting
flagged and not the good guys. Guard zones and criminal flagging in
the upcoming house patch will certainly help.
But what in the world was the thinking on the Blade Spirit and Energy
Vortex patch? Made them more aggressive? Didn't you mean, made them
totally insane? I had been asking for changes so that people who use
them on monsters would not get criminal flagged ... but what did you
guys do? WOW ... Now an innocent has to contend with not only a pile
of NPKs hot on his trail, but now his own blade spirit is out to kill
him too.
Corwin
Corwin of Amber (Wind Elders, ATL)
>become a murderer. No macroing it off. Forever after you ARE a
>murderer.
Why don't you people take 200 micro seconds and think before posting
this kinda junk?
In the current system there are a number of ways you can
unintentionally cause damage to another player. And then if they
suicide ... wam ... your red for life ...
Jeff Gentry
: But what in the world was the thinking on the Blade Spirit and Energy
: Vortex patch? Made them more aggressive? Didn't you mean, made them
: totally insane? I had been asking for changes so that people who use
: them on monsters would not get criminal flagged ... but what did you
: guys do? WOW ... Now an innocent has to contend with not only a pile
: of NPKs hot on his trail, but now his own blade spirit is out to kill
: him too.
Dangerous Magicks should be Dangerous. If you want to use these spells
as an easy way to harvest monsters and cheesily get fame & loot, then
you should be prepared to have consquences.
Loki Dahlmarth, LS
taran
<Dun...@LakeSuperior.Shard> wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:10:12 -0800, The Philosopher Primus
> <He...@Fight.SPAM> wrote:
>
>>> And looters need to be perma-flagged like thieves.
>>>
>>> And killers need to be perma-flagged like thieves.
>>
>> And thieves need to be perma-dead, like pigs. :-)
>
> But we should be able to get hides from them.
Actually, in Island of Kesmai it was possible to drag someone's corpse to
the tailor. The tailor would then make you a nice football out of the
person's corpse. The person to whom you did this with was then off to roll
up a new character...
At one point as a relatively well-known newbie, I got pked in that game.
It was actually a mistake and the pkers were very apologetic (pkers, or
lkers as they were called, really were in it for the challenge in that
game). They took none of my stuff. It didn't help them though...a lynch
mob formed and they were hunted down and killed. Most of them ended up as
footballs.
taran
--------------
taran wanderer
assistant pig keeper
chesapeake shard
The Philosopher Primus
> >Thank you. Want to discuss it more?
>
> Sure.
>
> Hopefully we can agree on the object: to ensure that killers are
> flagged red, while good guys are not.
This amounts to changing the subject. The idea of the sliding scale was to punish
more severely those who do many murders instead of a few. The sliding scale and
basing all penalties on the life-total murder count instead of "current" murder
count will definitely do that.
As to turning killers red, I think we have been over that enough. Make snooping (at
least when detected) a crime, make thieveing a crime and an aggressive act, so when
you steal and kill the victim you are a murderer (reportable, anyway).
Instead of turning someone gray for two minutes for murdering, turn them RED, and
make it for more time, like 5 minutes. Or 2 minutes of red and 3 more of gray. Or
red until they commit an act of kindness, so they just don't Hide and wait it out.
Put some advantage into being blue. Or disadvantage into being gray and red. Like
Recall does not work as well, consumes more regs, takes longer, fails more.
Introduce a few weapons, Good ones, that only work right when you are Blue (the
Paladin's Sword of Justice).
Remove the criminal and aggressor flagging for someone entering your firefield,
etc. This does not seem to have had any of the desired effect of protecting
innocents from being blocked into a fight they would prefer to escape (and the
spells generally are not that big a barrier to someone trying to escape a monster
afterall). If you cast in ON someone it should cause flagging, but not if they run
into it.
> Those in opposition to the
> change to 3, or the slowing of decay of MC's, oppose it because they
> don't feel it meets that objective, that it would flag those who kill
> blue PKs too quickly, rather than flagging the true repeat killers.
This is simply arguement by changing the subject. The idea is to overall reduce the
rule of the jerks. Reduce their numbers, their tremendous advantages, their overall
effect. I agree, they MUST be in the game, but when everything we do in the game is
defined by them, they count for too much. Reducing that, byt whatever means
necessay, is the goal.
> More like, blue people protect blue people from blue pkers. Many of
> the public buildings are open to all; blue pkers come and attack, and
> the defenders of the public building take on murder count to defend
> them. Many of them go red as a result. In other words, the wrong
> people get flagged murderers.
This Mage Tower thing is one deal, and should not be used as an excuse to protect
jerkism. In fact I like the idea that there be an enclave where evil rules, for
those who want to test their cojones against really serious competition. Let's
concentrate on liberating the majority of the world (the part that counts, roads,
dungeons) from near total rule by jerks.
> The loyalties are to those who are trying to kill murderers. Seems to be the same
> place as YOUR loyalties, is it not?
OK, let's work with that.
The Philosopher Primus
> >Thank you. Want to discuss it more?
>
> Sure.
AHK! I pushed the send button before I was really finished with that response.
Please ignore the part where I called your mom a bloated warthog.
(from Highlander. hee heehe)
I was doing those items about making murderers go red off the top of my cuff (or is
it off my hair?), and probably did not cover them very well. Guys, give some input
there. Thanks.
Silverlock
wrote:
>The Philosopher Primus <He...@Fight.SPAM> wrote:
>
>
>>DD said he was thinking about it. He has been thinking about it now for months.
>>We have been demanding the changes (red at 3 not 5, longer macro-off times or
>>sliding scale, serious difficulties for reds and grays), and he simply will not
>>act.
>
>Quite simply, there are priorities, and that's not as high up as
>getting this house ownership thing sorted out. It's that simple. It's
>not from lack of desire to implement the changes.
>
>There IS quite a lot of resistance to lowering the murder count (Mage
>Tower regulars are an example--they rely on that buffer to defend the
>premises from people killing the reds to whom they have granted
>sanctuary. And before you say, "well, they are helping PKers!"--that's
>their roleplay, that the Mage Tower is a place of retreat and study
>and sanctuary. A valid roleplay, IMHO). Personally, I like the sliding
>scale (and the "tally total murders ever") things better...
>
WOAH just a second there! We don't rely on any such buffer. The MAJOR
problem the tower has is with item theft causing us to fight back and
get counts. The housing patch should fix that. We will have really
nothing to steal and if someone wants to attack a person in our tower
they will have the ret of us to face as well.
We do not care if a red comes in and if someone wants to attack them
they will end up dealing with ALL of us that are there simply because
its a rule that we are Neutral. Ask on the Mage tower board if they
would like to have the murder cap lowered to 3. In fact I will ask for
you.
>> He regards the jerks as just as valid a group as the majority.
>
>Uh, no. :P
>
>-Raph Koster
>Lead Designer, Ultima Online
What do you think the in time for Meditation is Raph, I gave up all
weapons skills in anticipation and I am getting the shit kicked out of
me in Hythloth lately? :)
--
Silverlock, ICQ 474725
Household Pests? The SW-404 'SpitFire' APRL cleansing system
will remove them, we Guarantee IT! Not responsible for damage
to persons or structures from use of this product.
Dial 1-800-FRY-THEM for info and a home demonstration.
The Philosopher Primus
> KILL any blue player, and you become a murderer. No macroing it off.
> Forever after you ARE a murderer.
This they will never do, and I wouldn't want to see it anyway. There will
always be some way to be an ass and we need to be able to make some justice to
curb that. What is needed is to curb those who kill much. Especially without
going red.
The Philosopher Primus
> I'll repeat my mantra here, in case it gets read: the ease of macroing off a
> murder count is the single biggest problem in the persistence of PKs
> remaining blue. As long as "time online" is the only thing necessary to
> decrease your murder count, this problem will remain. It won't matter one
> bit whether the count is 3 or 4 or 5, and it will barely matter if the decay
> is increased, and it will barely matter whether you have a separate "long
> term" murder counter. Actually the latter might hurt guys like me, who kill
> a few jerks/thieves/looters a week, whether they are blue at the time of not.
Increasing the count-off time will help. You can kill two or three a day and
never go red.
With the sliding scale, if you just add 1 hour every count you get a big change
in things, as shown in this table:
http://www.users.uswest.net/~masters/sliding.htm
> One sample solution: have a murderer lose 2000 karma points, which are
> tracked separately and which MUST be made up in addition to the 8 hour
> clock. That is one way to guarantee that the murderer is online "actively"
> rather than asleep in his bed ... online and hopefully not walking around
> harrassing people. Or make them kill a dragon or two .. whatever ....
We have offered many versions of this. Have them go to a randomly-selected
shrine every hour, or that hour does not count (you can reduce your count-off
time by 1 hour by doing so, but only after waiting an hour). They could get
the assignment as to which one to go to from a wandering healer (or monk, wisp,
whatever). This would be a decent alternative to the sliding scale, though a
bit more trouble to implement. Both could be implemented, giving the jerk a
choice.
> >More like, blue people protect blue people from blue pkers. Many of
> >the public buildings are open to all; blue pkers come and attack, and
> >the defenders of the public building take on murder count to defend
> >them. Many of them go red as a result. In other words, the wrong
> >people get flagged murderers.
Blues attack who? For attacking, they should not be blue. Change the
definition of what is a crime, and put some serious time on those who murder,
and the problem is largely solved.
Silverlock
>
>>(Mage Tower regulars are an example--they rely on that buffer to defend the
>>premises from people killing the reds to whom they have granted
>>sanctuary. And before you say, "well, they are helping PKers!"--that's
>>their roleplay,
>
>freebie-kills, I think that may be the worst possible example. "Valid
>roleplay" or not - killing innocents (whether you are doing it to
>defend murderers or not) SHOULD make you a murderer.
>
>>and sanctuary. A valid roleplay, IMHO).
>
>under the same laws as the rest of us, and killing innocents is
>supposed to make you a murderer, regardless what excuse, and
>roleplayed or not.
>
>Or have you revised the rep' system now so that reds can be attacked
>without penalty, *except* at the mage tower?
The mage tower is not in a guard zone. It will never be in a guard
zone nor will it ever restrict the actions of visitors to it while
they are not there. As long as you mind your manners while on our
property or taking part in one of our events you can do as you please
the rest of the time. The penalty you will get for attacking a red at
the tower is every other mage in the place will attempt to destroy
you. We have rules and we respect them. The MT is like a church,
sanctuary for anyone who wants it from any other aspects of the game.
Silverlock
Exactly. I don't agree with you on many things, but if you are at the
tower you are neutral. Anyone attacks you and I will attack them. The
people who did attack you shouldn't have done it, and if you have any
problems like that again please post to the mage tower board and
identify who attacked you. We will attempt to talk to them and explain
what we stand for. Sorry that it happened btw, I have seen myself some
people who just don't get it. My emergency rune for if I ever turn red
is for the Tower, precisely because it is sanctuary of a sorts.
Corwin of Amber (Wind Elders, ATL)
>And give them the perma-flag for killing and taking ALL of a persons
>stuff, just as thieves get for stealing one small thing. I mean this
>more than anything else makes no sense to me. You snatch a rune and
>you're grey til you die, but kill someone and take *everything* and
>it's two-minutes of hiding for you.
You can't "force" someone to steal from you.
You *can* jump in to someone's firewall and commit suicide.
I suppose some would argue that thieves shouldn't have the perma flag
... but I think the difference is that the stealing skill is sooo easy
to use and can be executed by a newbie in a rez robe ... while killing
is somewhat harder. Basically, most thieves are a pain in the ass and
deserve a tougher time.
Corwin
Jeff Gentry
: people who did attack you shouldn't have done it, and if you have any
: problems like that again please post to the mage tower board and
: identify who attacked you. We will attempt to talk to them and explain
: what we stand for. Sorry that it happened btw, I have seen myself some
Heh, it was taken care of promptly :) This is in the "old tower" -
the Castle ... I've been good friends in game with the owner of
said castle for a while (Abby Redux) ... the incident sparked such
a debate that he got sick of it all and said "get your own tower,
guys" ... :)
I keep telling myself that I should get involved with the MT again -
back this time last year I tried putting together one but it fell
trhough for various reasons (mainly I had to leave and there wasn't
anyone around with enough 'oomph' to take up the slack while I was gone) ...
But, all in all, i'm glad its picked up again :)
Loki Dahlmarth, LS
Infymus
themselves killed in battle, or use mule characters to fix them. No matter what
it seems, they use some kind of workaround to get back to doing it again.
Dennis Francis Heffernan wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 03:49:43 GMT, bigb...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> |Does anyone else agree with me? Ralph, what do you think?
>
> Get rid of the "until you die" part.
>
> Dennis F. Heffernan UO: Venture (Catskills) dfra...@email.com
> Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
> "And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
> when Victoria reigned." -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Triox, Lowly Carpenter, Sonoma.
Harold Roberson
I think the boat has been missed here... please, listen.
In a properly designed system, you will NOT, NOT, NOT have
blue pkillers. Oh, they might be blue, but not for long.
My guy won't have to attack the blue pkiller first, and take
a murder count, as there shouldn't be any. The time to
macro away the murder counts is assnine.. I routinely
see Red ghosts macroing the counts away.
The new system should have started everyone out as blue,
and the "good" guys could just wait a few days for all
the anti-socials to go red or permanently grey again.
A proper system would keep them red/grey.
What's this shit about stealing not flagging aggressor?
or that a thief show's blue to everyone? My buddy just
got his pearls stolen, we know who did it, he is grey to
my buddy and BLUE??? to me?? What the fuck brilliant
design is that??
No skill delay for snooping or stealing??? another stupid
design.. all these designs favor the anti-social who can
get their victims to attack them. Then they don't get
no murder count.
This is like pissing in the wind. I don't think the UO
designers give a rats ass about any of this. Lip service
only goes so far Raph, and yours ran out a long time ago.
Your designs and actions speak volumes about what you
want in this game, and what you want is chaos.
Prove me wrong by designing something that doesn't simply
hand the reigns of the game to the thiefs/pkillers. Don't
get online and say "this is what i'd like, and we are
considering this" becuase you have not done what you say.
bah.
Raph Koster wrote:
>
> The Philosopher Primus <He...@Fight.SPAM> wrote:
>
Sophist
Jeff Gentry wrote:
>
> Dennis Francis Heffernan (dfra...@email.com) wrote:
> : _You_ get out of our way.
>
> Using the royal we? I don't think *you* have as many people in the
> statement of "we" and "our" as you think.
>
> Loki Dahlmarth, LS
Here I think you're wrong. Well, maybe not any more. A good many
of "us" have already been driven from the game by the
inconsiderate and selfish that populate the shards. By the looks
of things, this trend will continue :/
Sophist
Sophist
Jeff Gentry wrote:
>
> 2,000 is also a small fraction of their customer base.
>
> You have to remember that this NG is very "peacenik-centric" ... the
> demographics you see here on opinions are *not* indicitave of "the average
> player".
>
> Loki Dahlmarth, LS
Bah! You keep siting this group as being one sided and thus
outside the norm. Horse cookies! I read the other boards as well
and although some have a wider distribution of PK's, on average
50% are of the same ilk. Pro-PvP, anti-PK, and anti-jerk. Pretty
well exactly what most on this group are.
Regardless of what you maintain, many of the positions taken
here are very much in keeping with what the majority of UO
players would like to see. Of this I have no doubt.
Sophist
Meldur
>Don't you mean their characters? Do you actually see many
>UO Players while playing UO? :)
>
>Hehehe sorry :)
lol
Meldur on D'fels
bigb...@my-dejanews.com
Since I started this whole thread I thought I would add a few last words.
As you all know I was away for a while. When I came back, this was one of
the biggest changes I noticed and the most negative thing I have seen in the
year I have been playing UO.
The housing changes are important and something that everyone has been
screaming about for a long time. I understand that you can't change horses in
mid stream without drowning the horse so hopefully the house changes can be
wrapped up shortly.
Ralph, I hope you make this your next priority. I don't know what the answer
is, there have been a lot of good suggestions and a few not so good.
The bottom line is that I would like the rules enforced. The catch phrase
was, "If you heart is true, don't kill blue." The reality is, "Kill blue,
but only five, and then macro while you sleep, and then kill another five,
etc."
All I ask is that murderers are red, period. I can refrain from killing jerks
(I've only done it 2 or 3 times in a year) if that's what it takes.
Big Ed the Bad
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Corwin of Amber (Wind Elders, ATL)
I know you love this change. I'm just not convinced that it was the
design intent to please you. Perhaps it was, and if so ... I would
like to know. Powerfull mages ... should be powerfull. High level
magery keeps getting gutted and its just sad.
Things are supposed to get easier as you gain in skill ... otherwise
why waste your time???
*sarcasm on*
Nah, make life rough on people out to kill monsters ... Yeah, that's
the ticket. When they get bored of losing money trying to kill
monsters ... perhaps they will go off and do something productive and
easier ... like killing players ... great idea. ;P
*sarcasm off*
We all know you don't like to kill or even "harvest" monsters. Heck
you don't seem to even like players who kill monsters. So why the hell
do you care? Oh yeah ... cause they get famous ... while your
"virtuous" deeds go unnoticed ... sheesh
Corwin
Jeff Gentry
: design intent to please you. Perhaps it was, and if so ... I would
: like to know. Powerfull mages ... should be powerfull. High level
: magery keeps getting gutted and its just sad.
I agree that it was probably not as intended ... but I think its
kinda neat regardless. More than just my anti-harvester bias.
: Things are supposed to get easier as you gain in skill ... otherwise
: why waste your time???
They do. My GM mage does just fine against any monster that one
character is "expected" to be able to take on, without the use of
weapons.
: We all know you don't like to kill or even "harvest" monsters. Heck
: you don't seem to even like players who kill monsters. So why the hell
: do you care? Oh yeah ... cause they get famous ... while your
: "virtuous" deeds go unnoticed ... sheesh
Untrue. I *do* like fighting monsters. I've several chars where
that is *all* they do. I just do it the "hard way" and you know
what? I find it *much* more fun than sitting there & blading
away. Taking my guy with 65 swords & 70 tactics toe to toe
with an ettin is *challenging* and thus fun. Taking Loki with
no weapon skills and using only true "offensive magic" to damage
them is *challenging* and thus fun.
I just don't see why some knucklehead who can cast "Vas Corp Por"
can be somehow "more famous" than someone who doesn't.
Loki Dahlmarth, LS
Corwin of Amber (Wind Elders, ATL)
>They do. My GM mage does just fine against any monster that one
>character is "expected" to be able to take on, without the use of
>weapons.
Then when was the last time you used an eigth level spell on a spell
casting monster? Why be a friggin GM mage with the game-given right to
fizz only 5 times before you can cast an eigth level spell ... just to
see your summoned nasty go *poof* in 2 seconds. This makes no sense.
>Untrue. I *do* like fighting monsters. I've several chars where
>that is *all* they do.
Gee. I am enlightened.
>I just do it the "hard way" and you know
>what? I find it *much* more fun than sitting there & blading
>away. Taking my guy with 65 swords & 70 tactics toe to toe
>with an ettin is *challenging* and thus fun. Taking Loki with
>no weapon skills and using only true "offensive magic" to damage
>them is *challenging* and thus fun.
The game does nothing to prevent you from playing that way. So why do
you care how others play? Are you so sure they are not having fun?
>I just don't see why some knucklehead who can cast "Vas Corp Por"
>can be somehow "more famous" than someone who doesn't.
Because they are destroying "evil" ... and doing a much better job of
it than you are apparently. Too bad monsters never ravage towns or do
any real "evil" ... but that's another story.
We all know monsters are not the true "evil" in the game ... so isn't
funny that the game tracks the progress of the murderers? but not the
heroes who stand up to them?
Of course if you make a scoreboard ... people are gonna cheat it. I
know two people near the top of the Atl bounty board are brothers or
friends or something ... and I wouldn't put it past them to just kill
each other's mules over and over.
Corwin
Jeff Gentry
: you care how others play? Are you so sure they are not having fun?
They are indirectly interfering with *my* fun ... why? Because
of harvesters, monster have been made stronger with less loot -
newere monsters to the point of absurdity. Also, people will
claim entire hallways with boxes, yet somehow *you* are the prick
if you invade their space.
If people didn't use chintsy "harvesting" techniques, then monsters
wouldn't be so damn hard (the newer ones for instance) with such
crappy loot - people would be able to fight htem *without* having
to be cheap. One of my good freinds was as ardent as I was until
recently ... he finally gave up iwt hT2A, he said a lot of the
newer monsters just "aren't worth it" to fight "properly".
Thanks harvesters.
: Because they are destroying "evil" ... and doing a much better job of
: it than you are apparently. Too bad monsters never ravage towns or do
: any real "evil" ... but that's another story.
IMO, killing "AsSMasta" is somehow helping the "good" of the land
more than killing an ettin, sorry.
: Of course if you make a scoreboard ... people are gonna cheat it. I
Honestly, I could care less what title people get, and that's the point.
Because , as you point out, it will be cheated. I just don't want to
see the game ever *base* anything *real* off of a title because of
this. Furthermore, I just don't like people who base character judgements
off of title for the same purpose.
My real problem with harvesters is that they negatively impact
"real players' ... sort of the PVM equivalent of how non-PKs aren't
as bad as PKs because the PKs are negatively impacting the game
of non-PKs, but not vice versa.
Lokki Dahlmarth, LS
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|Hopefully we can agree on the object: to ensure that killers are
|flagged red, while good guys are not.
We do not, because there are no "good guys" who kill _in such a way as to
be flagged outlaw or murderer for it_. If they are so flagged it is because
they have placed their own sense of right and wrong above the law. If that's
what they want, then so be it. They're in fine company, alongside of Robin
Hood, the Scarlet Pimpernel, Zorro, the Phantom, Batman, Green Hornet and the
Punisher -- all of whom were CRIMINALS. Societies, as a rule, do not tolerate
people who use force, especially lethal force, without legal sanction. Even
the Mafia doesn't let its members kill with impunity. Bernie Goetz may have
had his fans, but in the end he did time and the civil courts ruined him for
life.
|More like, blue people protect blue people from blue pkers. Many of
|the public buildings are open to all; blue pkers come and attack, and
|the defenders of the public building take on murder count to defend
|them. Many of them go red as a result. In other words, the wrong
|people get flagged murderers.
It is impossible for the wrong people to be flagged murderers. If the
"blue PKs" attacked _and stayed blue_ then the target must be flagged outlaw,
or the entire affair must be part of guildwar. Either way, the interloper
_is_ the violater. Either he is aiding and abetting a known felon or he is
stepping into a formally recognized _legal_ conflict in which he has no
business. You say you want a system wherein we have that choice, fine. But
there have to be consequences for that choice, and those that make the choice
have to accept them.
|The loyalties are to those who are trying to kill murderers. Seems to
No, the loyalties are to those who are trying to kill, PERIOD. And
therein lies the whole problem. If we are going to be stuck with this sham of
a mockery of a PvP-restriction system, then at the very least it must be
driven not according to the needs of those who want to kill, but according to
the needs of those who want to _live_. Those who kill frequently must be
labelled as such, and should eventually be flagged outlaw to all observers for
the rest of that PCs existence. _WE_, as the constituents of the UO virtual
society, will decide which killers get a free ride, if any, and which are
hunted down like dogs. That is our prerogative.
_You_ get out of our way.
Dennis Francis Heffernan
(Wind Elders, ATL)) wrote:
|In the current system there are a number of ways you can
|unintentionally cause damage to another player. And then if they
|suicide ... wam ... your red for life ...
Fine with me.
You'll be more careful with your next character.
Score: Darwin 1, Idiots 0.
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|the rest of the time. The penalty you will get for attacking a red at
|the tower is every other mage in the place will attempt to destroy
|you. We have rules and we respect them. The MT is like a church,
|sanctuary for anyone who wants it from any other aspects of the game.
That is your prerogative, but absent a decree from Lord British that
places the Mage's Tower sanctuary above the king's law, anyone enforcing that
policy risks being branded an outlaw and should pay the price if so branded.
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|On 2 Dec 1998 19:21:00 GMT, gen...@rpi.edu (Jeff Gentry) wrote:
|
|
|>His point, I think, was that people other than PKs not only don't agree with
|>lowering the freebie-kills, but support increasing it. This is
|>what I've been trying to say here for a while - that people who are
|>actually valid people (ie they are positive influences in the UO community)
No one who kills is a positive influence on the UO community.
Jeff Gentry
Hmm ... okay.
I don't think you really understand what a living, thriving,
*roleplayed* *full* UO community would entail my friend.
Loki dahlmarth, LS
Jeff Gentry
JubJub McRae
>Corwin of Amber (Wind Elders, ATL) (cor...@wind.atlantic.com) wrote:
>: But what in the world was the thinking on the Blade Spirit and Energy
>: Vortex patch? Made them more aggressive? Didn't you mean, made them
>: totally insane? I had been asking for changes so that people who use
>: them on monsters would not get criminal flagged ... but what did you
>: guys do? WOW ... Now an innocent has to contend with not only a pile
>: of NPKs hot on his trail, but now his own blade spirit is out to kill
>: him too.
>
>Dangerous Magicks should be Dangerous. If you want to use these spells
>as an easy way to harvest monsters and cheesily get fame & loot, then
>you should be prepared to have consquences.
>
>Loki Dahlmarth, LS
Oh god.. I feel ill at the thought of it... but I agree with you...
You summon up something called a blade spirit, you shouldn't expect a
puppy dog. Of course, not that blade spirits and energy vortexes
are behaving in their current manner, the question presents itself -
why are those daemons so well behaved?
Jeff Gentry
: why are those daemons so well behaved?
This is a question I've asked since Beta. Given that even Relvinian
can't control his daemons (see the UO guide book that came out
way back when) - why can a middling adept mage summon a daemon and
control it easily? (granted it takes some *player* skill but geesh) ...
I've always felt that they should tie it to the mage's skill ...
make it a bit harder to control. A GM mage, for instance, would
have a pretty firm grasp on them. That adept might get mistaken for
lunch.
Loki Dahlmarth, LS
Jeff Gentry
: Regardless of what you maintain, many of the positions taken
: here are very much in keeping with what the majority of UO
: players would like to see. Of this I have no doubt.
Its more some of the more .... extreme ... members of this newsgroup
that I really mean that toward. For instance, you're a lot more
moderate in your views, and really aren't that far off from say,
even mine in issues like "blue PKing".
You're right tho, this group isn't as peaceniky as I make it out
to be, its just that certain folks really make it seem that way
to me :)
Loki Dahlmarth, LS
Bob Roland
>
KILL any blue player, and you
> become a murderer. No macroing it off. Forever after you ARE a
> murderer.
>
Um...how long have you been playing? Are you telling me that you have
*never* been forced to kill someone outside the bounds of the rep
system?
I have. A person who was harrasing miners in the caves of minoc, a boat
intruder, and some assorted others. (rarely do I have to do this more
than once a month or so.)
I think thats rather strict. We live in a lawless land where "rule of
the gun" is, sadly, sometimes the only recourse.
I think you should be red for a time period depending upon the number of
your prevous kills. (my thought is 10 minutes for your first kill, 20
for your second, etc etc)
-The Great Bob
Tempest
> atrophy time might. Otherwise they are still killing one-per-eight
> hours, just as they are now.
I agree with you there. How about jailing them for 24 hours that
way they couldn't do anything at all with that character (not that they do much
while "red" anyway)
except macro. You could also not allow skills to be used while in jail thus
making macroing a little harder
and stopping them from improving their skills while being "punished".
> And give them the perma-flag for killing and taking ALL of a persons
> stuff, just as thieves get for stealing one small thing. I mean this
> more than anything else makes no sense to me. You snatch a rune and
> you're grey til you die, but kill someone and take *everything* and
> it's two-minutes of hiding for you.
>
> Permaflag looters and permaflag people when they get reported for
> murder.
I agree with most of what your saying here and I like the idea of treating
looters like thieves (which they are).
I can't count the number of times I've been looted right after dying and REALLY
hate not be able to do anything
about it, but on the other hand if you have just killed a blue pk jerk would you
wanna be permaflagged for that?
> Even though I'm not especially in favor of lowering the number of
> freebie-kills, I think that may be the worst possible example. "Valid
> roleplay" or not - killing innocents (whether you are doing it to
> defend murderers or not) SHOULD make you a murderer.
Correct! And here is were the game falls short, since the rep system cannot
distinguish between a justifiable <sp>
murder and a murder done "in cold blood" then all murders should count. In old
times there was sometimes a
heavy price to be paid for doing the honorable thing (i.e. Robin Hood the
Outlaw).
But as the old saying goes "nothing good is ever easy"!
On a side note I'd just like to say that I've lerked in this group for some time
now and have been playing UO
since right after the public release. We have all seen this game change in so
many ways, some good and some
bad, but I still love it! Just remember all of you that are trumpeting the
upcoming EverQuest, without all of the
mistakes and errors that have happened in UO's life your game would not exist.
Yes I can see a day when UO
will no long be around, like the Model T that Mr. Ford invented, I just wonder
will anyone remember were it
all started and give credit were credit is due?
I miss Magnus *sigh*........you never realize what the little things in life
mean till they are gone. His wit and humor
added a great deal to my enjoyment of UO. I know he came back to the newsgroup
for a bit but have not seen any
posts from him for a while now. I NEED MY TOP TEN LIST FIX!!! *recovers from
convulsions* ......hurry please
*gasp* can't last much longer..........
Your Knight in slightly tarnished armor (err Platemail I mean),
Tempest of Skye
Lord Knight & Guildmaster of the Celestrial Knights
Chesapeake Shard
Jonathan Aitken
>On Wed, 02 Dec 1998 19:56:47 GMT, rko...@origin.ea.com (Raph Koster) wrote:
>
>|Hopefully we can agree on the object: to ensure that killers are
>|flagged red, while good guys are not.
>
> We do not, because there are no "good guys" who kill _in such a way as to
>be flagged outlaw or murderer for it_. If they are so flagged it is because
>they have placed their own sense of right and wrong above the law. If that's
>what they want, then so be it. They're in fine company, alongside of Robin
>Hood, the Scarlet Pimpernel, Zorro, the Phantom, Batman, Green Hornet and the
>Punisher -- all of whom were CRIMINALS. Societies, as a rule, do not tolerate
>people who use force, especially lethal force, without legal sanction. Even
>the Mafia doesn't let its members kill with impunity. Bernie Goetz may have
>had his fans, but in the end he did time and the civil courts ruined him for
>life.
Several of those people almost never or never killed :). But I agree with the
point.
Otara, Napa
Dundee
wrote:
>Exactly. I don't agree with you on many things, but if you are at the
>tower you are neutral.
Says who?
Can I make up my own modz to the rep' system, too? Like "If you're in
the rangers guildhall, u r red, dude."
I agree with the concept in principle of providing a sanctuary -
especially since the rep system quite often leaves the bad guys blue
and makes the good guys red - but to expect any special exemption from
the Law of the Land is .. er.. eh. I just don't get it.
Defending murderers should make you a murderer. Even if they are
"wrongly convicted" murderers. Then you can be a "wrongly convicted"
murderer, too.
--
Dundee of Lake Superior - Skep...@SPAMISantisocial.com
The Town of Skara Brae: http://members.xoom.com/skara/
UO related stuff: http://dundee.uong.com
Dundee
wrote:
>The mage tower is not in a guard zone. It will never be in a guard
>zone nor will it ever restrict the actions of visitors to it while
>they are not there.
That has nothing to do with it. If you kill innocents then you are
branded a murderer by the Law of the Land - whether you do it in a
guardzone or not. And the law doesn't stop at the guardzone boundry,
dungeon entrances or at the mage tower door.
>As long as you mind your manners while on our
>property or taking part in one of our events you can do as you please
>the rest of the time. The penalty you will get for attacking a red at
>the tower is every other mage in the place will attempt to destroy
>you. We have rules and we respect them. The MT is like a church,
>sanctuary for anyone who wants it from any other aspects of the game.
I have no problem with that. But if you kill innocents then, in the
eyes of the law, you are a murderer. No matter why you're doing it or
what you are doing.
It's a *good thing* for you to create and police a neutral zone. I
just don't see why you'd expect the law not to apply to you there,
when it applies to everyone else, everywhere else.
Dundee
Heffernan) wrote:
> That is your prerogative, but absent a decree from Lord British that
>places the Mage's Tower sanctuary above the king's law, anyone enforcing that
>policy risks being branded an outlaw and should pay the price if so branded.
Yeah, that's what I meant.
Dundee
Amber (Wind Elders, ATL)) wrote:
>You *can* jump in to someone's firewall and commit suicide.
IMO, the field spells shouldn't flag you crim unless you cast them
onto someone.
>is somewhat harder. Basically, most thieves are a pain in the ass and
>deserve a tougher time.
The fact is, our possessions are worth more than our lives, since
death is meaningless apart from loss of "stuff". But murderers and
looters *are* thieves. They don't deserve additional punishment
because they kill, they deserve additional punishment because they
steal more.
Damocles
wrote:
>
>There IS quite a lot of resistance to lowering the murder count (Mage
>Tower regulars are an example--they rely on that buffer to defend the
>premises from people killing the reds to whom they have granted
>sanctuary. And before you say, "well, they are helping PKers!"--that's
>their roleplay, that the Mage Tower is a place of retreat and study
>and sanctuary. A valid roleplay, IMHO). Personally, I like the sliding
>scale (and the "tally total murders ever") things better...
The sliding scale is probably better, but that is a rather poor
example. If the Mage Tower wants to claim sanctuary for murderers than
they have to suffer the consequences of that. Using that as a reason
not to help the 99% of players who have nothing to do with the Tower
or any other roleplaying organization just doesn't fly.
I don't understand the current design philosophies on this. On the one
hand you resist moderate changes like decreasing the murder count
level and increasing atrophy, but on the other you're contemplating
extreme changes like making blue corpses unlootable, which I think is
a horrendous idea that will make the game worse for everyone.
Why not just tweak the present system before going in completely new
directions?
Jeff Gentry
: IMO, the field spells shouldn't flag you crim unless you cast them
: onto someone.
"Lest we forget" .... I know that time heals many wounds -
Don't *any* of you remember what dungeon entrance areas were like when
field spells were like this?
Loki Dahlmarth, LS