I got PKed last night.
Kerry Jane
sandals that he could have gotten himself - for free - and without murder
counts.
I was hide hunting in Rivendell with Anglara (17 strength). We lost each
other, and The Scoundrel Brandon came up and started talking kewlio to me.
"Were did u get tohse sandles?" "From an NPC." "Which one?" "I don't
know; they were a present."
Then he asks what I'm doing... do I want to go fight monsters with him... I
tell him no, I'm just hunting animals to raise tailoring. He asks if I
want him to help kill animals. I say sure. So he kind of tags along..
helps kill some animals. He keeps asking us questions. "What is ur str"
and "r u a mag" and "what is ur mace skill."
Eventually, Brandon waited until I was at about half health, and then said
An Ex Por, Kal Vas Flam, An Ex Por, Corp Por, and I was dead. He must have
been pretty sad if it took THAT much to take me down when i was at half
health.
I'm wasn't carrying anything good... Some leather armor, a couple of
sewing kits, 2 runes, about 5 of each recall reagent, and a bunch of
Studded Leather Sleeves that I had tailored along the way...
And a pair of black sandals - a present from Damin Tresh.
Anglara attacked him for attacking me, and he took her down, too. Two
fricking murder counts for these dumb sandals. What a maroon.
I went back to my corpse - he had pretty much left everything on my corpse
except my bag of reagents and runes (found the runes, and about 70 gps that
I had gotten from orcs, up the road a bit). But he took my fricking sewing
kits... and of course, my sandals.
I saw them later, Locked Down on his porch - the house was named "The Black
Diamond Lounge" or something to that effect. The funny thing is - this guy
will probably never wear them... because they are too 'special.'
But if he had had a bit of ambition, and if he had asked me the right
questions... and if he hadn't been such a fricking dewd... he could have
had a pair of his own. For free... without the murder counts.
Laziness. That's really all that was.
--
The Famed Janey, Master Warrior
Remove the Four
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Realm/9496
Bob Roland
Kerry Jane wrote:
> But if he had had a bit of ambition, and if he had asked me the right
> questions... and if he hadn't been such a fricking dewd... he could have
> had a pair of his own. For free... without the murder counts.
>
> Laziness. That's really all that was.
great story....good to see you back in sossaria (now whens the next
installment of the Monroe chricles, damnit!?)
great bob
Kerry Jane
news:376DC4E5...@mailbox.uq.edu.au...
> Dang - he only took one count from you - not Anglarra as he/she
> attacked first.
Well, he was Gray when Anglara attacked, and he killed her, so that would
be 2 counts.
> No magic arrow first shot from him?
Nope.
>No magic trapped pouch's on you?
Nope. I'm a shopkeeper... not a combatant. I don't carry hardly anything.
> Also - when you hunt/tailor, concentrate on all those evil
> bears *grin* - they should still raise your combat skills
> whereas most other hidebearing animals won't.
Yeah, but I'd really rather not have any combat skills at all. I'd much
rather have a swordsman come with me and kill stuff while I tailor... but I
can't find one of those, lately.
Kerry Jane
> great story....good to see you back in sossaria
I shouldn't have written it, yet.
If I had waited, I could have written about how I told Corwin and Hassan
(surprised to see him!) and others where the guy lived, and that Hassan
said he would do everything in his power to get them back for me.
> (now whens the next installment of the Monroe chricles, damnit!?)
Never, probably. I'm unsure how to end it, still.
Anyway, I have played (not just refreshed house/made a couple of
outfits/logged off, like I have been doing lately) the last 2 nights in a
row. A big reason for this (are you listening, raph? I mean, are you,
really?) is that Tailoring has gone up .3 each night. This is extremely
encouraging, and makes me want to play more. But if I have to take
month-long breaks to make this happen, well.. I figure it'll be about 26
months before I make GM Tailor.
I wish they'd take some of the mystery out of it. Tell us what screws up
skill gain. Tailoring cloth? Tailoring every night? What? I don't want
huge increases all the time... just little bits here and there.. are *very*
nice, and very encouraging. And I want to know what I have to do to be
encouraged, dammit.
BTW - cut leather is *very* nice.
Reece
pouch's on you? Walking straight out of the para can be enough to
discourage PK's this inept but you really have to watch your health.
(don't go below 75% in suspect situations under any circumstances)
*grin* - they should still raise your combat skills whereas most other
thing but I think I can remember grizzlies raising all the way to GM
(albiet slowly) and even if not - they will keep your stats in nice
order.
It's sad - but avoidable.
reece
> But if he had had a bit of ambition, and if he had asked me the right
> questions... and if he hadn't been such a fricking dewd... he could have
> had a pair of his own. For free... without the murder counts.
>
> Laziness. That's really all that was.
>
Reece
Kerry Jane wrote:
took one count from you - not Anglarra as he/she
> > attacked first.
>
> Well, he was Gray when Anglara attacked, and he killed her, so that would
> be 2 counts.
>
If you attack a grey and die - they get no count =( That's the whole
premise of the polymorph ruse where they polymorph into a orc or such
(thus go grey) and walk at you. Unless you hit allnames, you attack them
thinking they're just an orc (etc) and *boom*, they can now kill you
without penalty because you attacked first.
I like the depth in UO - but it's a full time job working out all the
little intricacies. Doh =(
Reece
Sean
combat ready, and willing to take a count stake his house out and....
payback the deed.
--
Sean S. -:- ICQ: 1826323
Zap small files with Zap `Em - http://home.rochester.rr.com/zapem
Visit www.ZenSearch.com a 100% quality search engine
(Email: sunymoon <AT> GeoCities >DOT< com )
Kerry Jane <4kerr...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:2qib3.112880$uo1.4...@news.uswest.net...
gil
rend
gil'lomion LS
Yew Rangers
Kerry Jane wrote:
>
> The guy was an idiot, really. He took 2 murder counts for a pair of black
> sandals that he could have gotten himself - for free - and without murder
> counts.
>
> I was hide hunting in Rivendell with Anglara (17 strength). We lost each
> other, and The Scoundrel Brandon came up and started talking kewlio to me.
> "Were did u get tohse sandles?" "From an NPC." "Which one?" "I don't
> know; they were a present."
snip
Korth
system (that I didn't like). It is difficult to make friends. In the past,
we had one common enemy, red or blue. (I ignored the looters as there are
still many now.) But just my opinion though.
Cheers,
Korth
Kerry Jane <4kerr...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:2qib3.112880$uo1.4...@news.uswest.net...
> The guy was an idiot, really. He took 2 murder counts for a pair of black
> sandals that he could have gotten himself - for free - and without murder
> counts.
>
> I was hide hunting in Rivendell with Anglara (17 strength). We lost each
> other, and The Scoundrel Brandon came up and started talking kewlio to me.
> "Were did u get tohse sandles?" "From an NPC." "Which one?" "I don't
> know; they were a present."
>
> Then he asks what I'm doing... do I want to go fight monsters with him...
I
> tell him no, I'm just hunting animals to raise tailoring. He asks if I
> want him to help kill animals. I say sure. So he kind of tags along..
> helps kill some animals. He keeps asking us questions. "What is ur str"
> and "r u a mag" and "what is ur mace skill."
>
> Eventually, Brandon waited until I was at about half health, and then said
> An Ex Por, Kal Vas Flam, An Ex Por, Corp Por, and I was dead. He must
have
> been pretty sad if it took THAT much to take me down when i was at half
> health.
>
> I'm wasn't carrying anything good... Some leather armor, a couple of
> sewing kits, 2 runes, about 5 of each recall reagent, and a bunch of
> Studded Leather Sleeves that I had tailored along the way...
>
> And a pair of black sandals - a present from Damin Tresh.
>
> Anglara attacked him for attacking me, and he took her down, too. Two
> fricking murder counts for these dumb sandals. What a maroon.
>
> I went back to my corpse - he had pretty much left everything on my corpse
> except my bag of reagents and runes (found the runes, and about 70 gps
that
> I had gotten from orcs, up the road a bit). But he took my fricking
sewing
> kits... and of course, my sandals.
>
> I saw them later, Locked Down on his porch - the house was named "The
Black
Ce'Nedra Willow
Kerry Jane <4kerr...@geocities.com> wrote in message ...
Boy do I hear ya.. I've gone up about .5 this weekend and it was
exhilerating!! I found this awesome spot last nite near Wind. While we were
treasure hunting. It seemed to be a server boundary. *grins*
I was able to just slaughter about 15 'stuck' animals with out taking more
then 10 pts damage total. *bliss*
I haven't been able to find a good accomplice lately either. *sighs*
Though in exchange for uniforms the whole Yew Militia has saved hides for
me. So every once in a while I get to pick up a stack of 100-150 hides at
one time and whip thru them. Did you know that walruses are awesome for
hides.. I can kill them in like 2 arrows and get like 15 hides... very
similar to hinds. I pretty much, lately, have restricted myself to only
hunting deer and birds(for feathers for arrows, I'm an archer.) This way my
life stays pretty full and I get the most bang for my arrows. But then of
course I end up wasting them on the all the damn monsters that spawn.
Ce'Nedra Willow
Infymus
The guy was an idiot, really. He took 2 murder counts for a pair of black
sandals that he could have gotten himself - for free - and without murder
counts.
What puzzled me the most was this... I was killed almost 12 times by these four, yet I was only able to report them for murder twice. Is there some sort of limit as to the number of times you can report someone? I have my uo.cfg set to "assumeplayasghost=yes". Yet each time I died, no murder count screen would come up.
After gathering my items, I continued on my way, minus my staff - which they took.
Infymus.
Triox/Carpenter on Napa.
Whisper
went up .2 after 4 months of working on it. It gets awefully frustrating is
about all I can say.
As for cut leather... Amen to that.
And one question before I end... Where does one find black sandals?
Whisper of Yew - Baja
WesGill
>took.
>Infymus.
>Triox/Carpenter on Napa.
Create a newbie shepard or beggar and take his staff. Since it will be
newbified you will have it even after death.
Shea/Baja
Brandy
Infymus <inf...@disdat.com> wrote in message
news:376E4778...@disdat.com...
<snip>
> What puzzled me the most was this... I was killed almost 12 times by these
> four, yet I was only able to report them for murder twice. Is there some
sort
> of limit as to the number of times you can report someone? I have my
uo.cfg set
> to "assumeplayasghost=yes". Yet each time I died, no murder count screen
would
> come up.
>
> After gathering my items, I continued on my way, minus my staff - which
they
> took.
>
> Infymus.
> Triox/Carpenter on Napa.
>
You can only report the same murderer(s) every 5 minutes.
Brandy (SBR, LS)
Kerry Jane
> And one question before I end... Where does one find
> black sandals?
Recipe for Colored Sandals:
1 cup of NPC who has these treasured items
2 cups of PC assassin who doesn't mind the risk involved of going gray in
town
Poison Field to taste.
Now please, folks... now that i've told you this... i don't care WHAT color
of sandals they have... please DON'T kill the tailor NPCs who have nice
colors of cloth. They are *so* hard to get. Thank you for your support.
:)
Kerry Jane
> Did you know that walruses are awesome for hides.. I can
> kill them in like 2 arrows and get like 15 hides... very similar
> to hinds.
Yeah. I liked to kill the walruses when I had a boat (and someone to run
it for me) off of Ice Island. :)
> I pretty much, lately, have restricted myself to only hunting
> deer and birds(for feathers for arrows, I'm an archer.)
I hunt whatever has a good work-to-hides ratio. Cows, bulls, goats
definitely, hinds, great harts, etc. I stay away from the bears and
cougars/panthers, since they hurt too much for the amount of hides they
give.
Unfortunately, what happens, is that I kill all of the choice animals off..
and what respawns are the things I stay away from (plus bunnies. LOTS of
bunnies).
Kerry Jane
> Can you be a bit more specific where this jerk lives, please? :)
Sure. He lives in a Large Forge building, North of Rivendell. There are 2
large forges right next to each other in a N-S strip of buildable land.
His is on the left hand side. I think his house is called The Black
Diamond Lounge.
He has a bunch of *crap* on his porch... I mean - stuff that it looks like
he will never use, but he just has there just for show. My sandals are
among this stuff.
Sad, really. Here I was, no-combat-skills Mairi ... *enjoying* my
sandals - actually wearing them - getting use out of them. He, who wanted
them enough to *kill* me for them... will probably NEVER wear them.
JNTF
Jerry of Woodcliff, Pacific
...Snip...
Kerry Jane
Hmm. That's funny... I have, too. ;)
Kerry Jane
need to make a whole thread just for this subject, because it is kind of
related to the PK story. Although, if I made the subject "RALPH READ
THIS!!!" then maybe that would get Raph's attention, cause this is sort of
about something we were talking about earlier.
I hope he reads this. Maybe if he doesn't respond, I'll just mail it to
him. Cause in a minute here, I'm going to admit that I was wrong, and he
was right... which I think he'd be interested in reading.
As another aside - can you tell now that I hardly ever get PKed? This is
only my 3rd time being PKed... and I think it has GOT to be one of the most
analyzed PK-Events *ever,* which I think is kinda funny. I mean, if I got
pked all the time, I wouldn't have NEAR enough time to analyze them all.
Anyway... so here's the deal.
I say there should be darkness without dewds. Raph says dewds ARE
darkness. I say I want to give people the chance to actually be
anti-virtuous. Raph says the dewds are more anti-virtuous than any foozle
they could dream up. Raph really may be right.
In one evening, The Scoundrel Brandon (although i'm sure the game has given
him another title besides Scoundrel now) has shown me that he is Cowardly,
Deceitful, and Dishonorable. I wish Lazy was an anti-virtue, cause then I
could get four. Greed could be another. Maybe Darius could tell me what
the rest of the real anti-virtues are, so I could see if he fit any of
them.
He was Deceitful, because he asked me if I wanted to hunt monsters, and
then animals... but killed me, instead. He was *also* deceitful when I was
killing the bull and said "I lost conn" ... but what he was *really* doing
was waiting for me to get to half health so that he could kill me.
He was Cowardly, because he waited until I was at half health to do any
damage at all.
He ws Dishonorable, because he didn't give me even a *chance* to defend
myself.
Raph couldn't have made a Foozle do that. And if he did - if the GAME had
taken my sandals... it would have been much, much worse (for me as a
player, not Mairi the tailor) than Brandon the Idiot taking them.
But here's the thing. The game only makes him a Scoundrel or Glorious.
The virtues aren't even there. I want EVERYONE to know that Brandon is a
Coward. I want EVERYONE to know that he is Dishonorable and Deceitful. I
want to be able to tell the game this... and have it show, somehow.
Lars Friedrich
Infymus wrote:
>What puzzled me the most was this... I was killed almost 12 times by these
four, yet I was only >able to report them for murder twice. Is there some
sort of limit as to the number of times you >can report someone? I have my
uo.cfg set to "assumeplayasghost=yes". Yet each time I died, no >murder
count screen would come up.
not reset upon death...If someone kills you, you have to wait 2 minutes till
this wears off..otherwise you appear grey to
him and he can kill you again without additional murder count...
Corwin of Amber (GM, SBR/LS, WE/ATL)
>I wish they'd take some of the mystery out of it. Tell us what screws up
>skill gain. Tailoring cloth? Tailoring every night? What? I don't want
>huge increases all the time... just little bits here and there.. are *very*
>nice, and very encouraging. And I want to know what I have to do to be
>encouraged, dammit.
Here are some of the things which effect skill gain most:
1) Number of players on when you are trying to gain (best gains are
always when the server is going down - of course that warps). After
2am, and before noon seem to be the best times.
2) Sub-server you practice on. If a skill is used less often on a
particular server you will gain more. Do people tailor in dungeons?
Sure some. Do people tailor in towns? Hell yes!
3) Anti-macro code. If you repeat a skill over and over and over too
quickly the anti-macro code will kick-in and and cut down your skill
gains.
4) Always make things which you succeed in often, but fail
occasionally. Once you hit the point where you always succeed the
skill gains will stop.
Oh yeah, and luck ;)
Corwin
Ingot Head
Kerry Jane <4kerr...@geocities.com> wrote in
[snip]
> I say there should be darkness without dewds. Raph says dewds ARE
> darkness. I say I want to give people the chance to actually be
> anti-virtuous. Raph says the dewds are more anti-virtuous than any foozle
> they could dream up. Raph really may be right.
He definitely has his point. For instance, while I haven't played much at
ALL for over a month now, my first instinct after reading your story is to
go pull out my old SBR character, and park him on the guy's doorstep. I'd
love to make this guy pay a few times for being such an ass.
What would have been better would have been some system that allowed YOU to
make him pay. Since your characters were tradespeople though, there was no
chance of that.
I guess I could handle a reduced number of pk's, Raph is right in that they
do elicit more passion than the mob's do.
The problem is that we can't do anything to them. Even if I play the game
his way, make a warrior that can compete with him, then kill him, he comes
back 5 minutes later and he STILL has your sandals.
Now if I could send the little ass to the Elysium fields for a few RL weeks.
AH! That would be worth it!
Ingot Head
Atlantic
Joao Luis
> The guy was an idiot, really. He took 2 murder counts for a pair of black
> sandals that he could have gotten himself - for free - and without murder
> counts.
>
PK=idiot; allways...
--
------//------
"I am here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm fresh out of bubblegum"
e-mail: raf...@esoterica.pt
Kerry Jane
> He definitely has his point. For instance, while I haven't played
> much at ALL for over a month now, my first instinct after reading
> your story is to go pull out my old SBR character, and park him
> on the guy's doorstep. I'd love to make this guy pay a few times
> for being such an ass.
Well, I did get Hassan, Corwin, and about six others to walk up to the
guy's house with me from the bank. When I told the story about how the guy
had stolen my sandals (I was still barefoot from the incident), Hassan
bought me a new pair from the cobbler and brought them back - me still
yammering on about the guy. Anyway - we walked up.. and they marked a
rune... swore they'd get the guy...
And I thought: "THIS is why I like this game."
> What would have been better would have been some system
> that allowed YOU to make him pay. Since your characters
> were tradespeople though, there was no chance of that.
Well, I would still like to be able to alert the game that he was being
Cowardly, Deceitful, and Dishonorable.
> The problem is that we can't do anything to them.
I want all the NPCs to say nothing but "oink oink" if the dewds become too
unvirtuous.
> Even if I play the game his way, make a warrior that can
> compete with him, then kill him, he comes back 5 minutes
> later and he STILL has your sandals.
The sandals REALLY aren't the important thing. The important thing is the
*punishment* he gets for *taking* my sandals. IMO, a murder count isn't
enough.
Ingot Head
Kerry Jane <4kerr...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:2qib3.112880$uo1.4...@news.uswest.net...
> The guy was an idiot, really. He took 2 murder counts for a pair of black
> sandals that he could have gotten himself - for free - and without murder
> counts.
Ok.
I signed on to UO tonight, brought up my old SBR character, did some basic
upkeep, then hoofed it to Rivendell. I found the house this guy lives in,
and confirmed it by standing on the steps so I could see the sandals on the
porch.
I then took a few steps south, and marked a rune. Anyone on LS that wants,
I'll meet them online and let them use the rune. I would have made a lot of
copies for everyone, but I can barely mark, and I was out of bloodmoss.
I tend to work regular business hours, so I can usually meet people nights
or weekends with some warning.
Engot Klone
LS
Raph Koster
>I know. Bad form to respond to your own post. But I don't think I really
>need to make a whole thread just for this subject, because it is kind of
>related to the PK story. Although, if I made the subject "RALPH READ
>THIS!!!" then maybe that would get Raph's attention, cause this is sort of
>about something we were talking about earlier.
Don't worry, I am here. Me, pass up a Kerry Jane post?!?
[massive snippage]
>But here's the thing. The game only makes him a Scoundrel or Glorious.
>The virtues aren't even there. I want EVERYONE to know that Brandon is a
>Coward. I want EVERYONE to know that he is Dishonorable and Deceitful. I
>want to be able to tell the game this... and have it show, somehow.
Any specific ideas on how? I don't know how many times we have put
enhanced reputation systems on the table, only to take them off
because of fear of abuse.
For example, originally we were going to have "I honor thee" and "I
revile thee." The latter would push the target down, but would still
have the cost that exists on the positive version.
But we were worried about a guild of powergamers coming up to Mairi
and reviling her until she was an Outcast. :(
We discussed breaking it up by Virtue, so you could honor someone or
revile someone specifically for their Valor. We talked about limits on
how many times a given account can honor or revile another account.
Time limits, point limits, etc. We still worried that it would be
abusable. We also were very worried about storage and performance
(checking a list of 10,000 grants to see if you honored them before?
Ick.)
Finally, we decided to just do what we did. We may well do it for fame
also, because players have asked for that.
Basically, if we put in a system like this, McCarthyism will be
possible, and I have this feeling that we'd be blamed for it--not the
players who engage in it.
But I would LOVE to have some way for players to do this.
-Raph Koster
Lead Designer, Ultima Online
Kerry Jane
> Don't worry, I am here. Me, pass up a Kerry Jane post?!?
Hahahaha - you never know. I *have* been a little ranty lately. I thought
maybe you had turned me off. Not only that, but I am becoming Armchair
Designer again, and I'm sure all you folks just *love* that. :P
> Any specific ideas on how?
No. That's your job. *razz!*
> For example, originally we were going to have "I honor thee"
> and "I revile thee." The latter would push the target down,
> but would still have the cost that exists on the positive version.
Make it cost MUCH more to Revile someone (or Dishonor or Coward or
whatever) than to Honor someone. Dishonoring someone is a dishonorable act
in itself.
> But we were worried about a guild of powergamers coming
> up to Mairi and reviling her until she was an Outcast. :(
But she wouldn't be an Outcast. Scrap those altogether.
She would simply be Uncompassionate. or Cowardly. Or something. Course,
you could stick some adjectives in there... Truly, Very, Quite, Fairly ...
and some bad-modifiers on the other end, too (I like 'downright' as one of
them - but can't figure out the others - no thesaurus handy ;)).
And then - if a dewd (or Mairi) got *too* bad, he or she wouldn't be able
to deal with NPCs who thought that X-Virtue(s) was/were the most important.
They would just say "Oink, Oink."
> We talked about limits on how many times a given account
> can honor or revile another account. Time limits, point limits,
> etc.
Time limits, i think, is the way to go. You can Dishonor someone every
eight hours play time. Or something. The important thing is to make it
cost - a LOT - to dishonor someone.
> We still worried that it would be abusable. We also were
> very worried about storage and performance (checking a
> list of 10,000 grants to see if you honored them before?
> Ick.)
Yeah. Points is bad. Besides, they could just make Virtue Mules, and your
Points system would be out of whack, anyway. Time limits - definitely.
> Finally, we decided to just do what we did. We may well
> do it for fame also, because players have asked for that.
Thou art famous? Please. lol.
> Basically, if we put in a system like this, McCarthyism will
> be possible, and I have this feeling that we'd be blamed
> for it--not the players who engage in it.
Not if you made it bad enough to dishonor someone.
> But I would LOVE to have some way for players to do this.
Me too. :)
The other problem is... with Dishonoring someone dishonoring you, too...
you've got a drain but no faucet.
Killing monsters shouldn't grant you any virtue. Maybe killing a dragon or
a titan or something like that should give you a *little* valor. But the
bulk of it needs to come from somewhere else...
Some of it should come from Quests (which would, of course, be random and
non-macroable, like the Big Quest Idea i wrote about a few months ago).
Some of it should come from ... Acts of God, maybe? I don't know.
But really, for anything 'rote' ... it should be given to the player very,
very, very slowly. MUCH more slowly than the current fame/karma scale.
What would happen, at least at the beginning, is that the Dewds would say:
"Oh! There's Corwin of Amber! Hehe! Thou Art Cowardly!! hehheehehhee!"
And then eight hours later they do the same to Hassan, and all of a sudden
find themselves Fairly Cowardly, themselves... with Hassan and Corwin just
having tiny notches into their Cowardice/Valiant scale.
Kerry Jane
> But I would LOVE to have some way for players to do this.
eeeeyeah. I got more. so much for housework. Heating up my chicken chow
mein, and thinking: "But how would they *see* it??"
Okay! So!
The UO paper doll gets edited. Instead of saying "The Illustrious ImUrGod,
Grandmaster Scholar" ... it would simply say ImUrGod, Grandmaster Scholar.
That frees up a bit of room underneath. Usually.
Then a little bit is added along the bottom. Eight smallish icons (not
huge, but big enough so that you can tell what they are) are added to the
paper doll. One for each of the eight virtues. The icons change color,
depending on how virtuous/anti-virtuous you are. So that someone bringing
up someone's paper doll would know, generally, if they are Safe. If you
used Rainbow Colors... or even Rainbow colors plus Black & White (to add in
for your good & evil).... if the person's icons are all Red, they are
probably not someone you want to go hunting with. If the person's icons
are all Purple... then they're (*cough*apowergamer*cough*) probably safe.
Okay - here's the other part.
The game needs to be smart enough to detect some Virtuous and Anti-Virtuous
activities. The game maybe shouldn't tell people all the activities that
it is detecting, so that people won't macro them.
Saying you (or u) followed by suck (or suk) isn't very compassionate.
Saying we rock (or rok) isn't very humble. Recalling away from a fight
isn't very valiant. Trying to pull off a trade-window scam isn't very
Honest (moving things in and out of the window should be detected; cancel
the entire trade window if you screwed up). Stealing isn't Just. Killing
an innocent is unvirtuous across the board. Killing a red (or gray) may be
virtuous in some respects (valor), but not others (compassion). Etc and so
on.
Gains could be done the same way. Healing is compassionate. Killing a
non-innocent is Just. etc etc etc.
Characters should have a Bad and Good counter attached to them, so that
Virtue is only granted and taken away at various intervals. Make 10 or so
different Interval Timers, and stick them Randomly to characters (although
once a character has an Interval Timer assigned, it should be static). So,
Janey's timer would be 37, 19, 42, 23 ... while Great Bob's timer would be
49, 28, 31, 12... so that we wouldn't know "Oh! My timer is about to time
out - i better get heal somebody so the game will think I'm compassionate!"
The timer resets to the next interval of time when it sees that the
character has done some act that either gains or loses virtue.
Ok. I think I'm done now.
Greywind
Raph Koster wrote:
>
> "Kerry Jane" <4kerr...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
> [massive snippage]
> >But here's the thing. The game only makes him a Scoundrel or Glorious.
> >The virtues aren't even there. I want EVERYONE to know that Brandon is a
> >Coward. I want EVERYONE to know that he is Dishonorable and Deceitful. I
> >want to be able to tell the game this... and have it show, somehow.
>
> Any specific ideas on how? I don't know how many times we have put
> enhanced reputation systems on the table, only to take them off
> because of fear of abuse.
>
I can't think of anything you could do that wouldn't/couldn't be
abused. I think the rep system you have now is leaps and bounds
better than what you've had previously.
I just don't think you'll be able to code "morals" and such into
the game w/o it being abused somehow.
What I'd like to see is a cleaning up of sorts in your code.
I understand the need/desire to add enhancements, but I really
think some bug fixes and performance enhancements are needed.
> For example, originally we were going to have "I honor thee" and "I
> revile thee." The latter would push the target down, but would still
> have the cost that exists on the positive version.
>
> But we were worried about a guild of powergamers coming up to Mairi
> and reviling her until she was an Outcast. :(
>
> We discussed breaking it up by Virtue, so you could honor someone or
> revile someone specifically for their Valor. We talked about limits on
> how many times a given account can honor or revile another account.
> Time limits, point limits, etc. We still worried that it would be
> abusable. We also were very worried about storage and performance
> (checking a list of 10,000 grants to see if you honored them before?
> Ick.)
>
> Finally, we decided to just do what we did. We may well do it for fame
> also, because players have asked for that.
>
> Basically, if we put in a system like this, McCarthyism will be
> possible, and I have this feeling that we'd be blamed for it--not the
> players who engage in it.
>
> But I would LOVE to have some way for players to do this.
>
> -Raph Koster
> Lead Designer, Ultima Online
I would like to see the virtues play a larger part in the game
too. I just can't think of any way it wouldn't be abused.
Of course, I haven't spent tons of time thinking about either :)
Greywind - thinking of coming back to UO.
Lexically Dense
>
>Any specific ideas on how?
why not let the players themselves decide rather than have the game decide?
what i propose is this; have players instigate a poll on a particular character
through the use of "i honour thee" and "i revile thee". once this is done a poll
thread is started on bank/inn bounty/notice boards and everyone can post a
positive or negative response, at the end of a certain amount of time, say one
week, the outcome of the poll is taken and the character is granted "virtue" points
lets call them, proportional to the amount of good vs bad votes they get.
the use of "i honour thee" and "i revile thee" is limited to once per week per
account and all those who contribute to the poll contribute to the amount of points
gained with their own virtue/fame/karma points since they are telling everyone that
so and so is a good or bad person, they have to backup their claims with their own
reputations.
contributions are a percentage of a person's total karma/fame and thus those with
higher fame/karma carry more weight than those with less.
if a person is put up for honouring and they do something totally dishonourable
during the polling period, the poll is closed and all persons casting a positive vote
instantly lose double fame/karma that they would have contributed and the poll is
closed, these things could include stealing, being reported for murder, etc. those
casting negative votes still lose the normal contribution of fame/karma or maybe
half. this relates to certain real life instances (since so many people enjoy real life
comparisons to justify their claims) such as election candidates being on their
best behaviour leading up to the election date and then turning into some lying
monster after theyve won.
this could also be a solution for tradespeople being unable to show their titles from
having no avenue for fame gain. say there is a smith who delivers top quality
goods at competitive prices all the time, one could go and nominate them for
fame/karma gain.
of course this could be exploitable but it would be extremely difficult and without
much benefit to exploiters anyway.
this doesnt have to be limited to fame/karma gain but also there could be new
titles made up for different virtues and a person is put up for virtue gain in a
particular virtue (say you nominate someone for being honest or dishonest) as
suggested already (see below excerpt).
>But we were worried about a guild of powergamers coming up to Mairi
>and reviling her until she was an Outcast. :(
this wouldnt be profitable to the powergamers.
>We discussed breaking it up by Virtue, so you could honor someone or
>revile someone specifically for their Valor. We talked about limits on
>how many times a given account can honor or revile another account.
>Time limits, point limits, etc. We still worried that it would be
>abusable. We also were very worried about storage and performance
>(checking a list of 10,000 grants to see if you honored them before?
>Ick.)
>
>Finally, we decided to just do what we did. We may well do it for fame
>also, because players have asked for that.
>But I would LOVE to have some way for players to do this.
>
>
>
>-Raph Koster
>Lead Designer, Ultima Online
>
what ive outlined above is rather convoluted, sorry its difficult to get out a lot of
ideas in a more coherent way without more planning. this is perhaps just a spark
to a greater idea? hopefully some others will add and change and ask about other
things that help to create a better system.
--
I'm a fat nerdy geek with no friends,
now that we've established so many things in common
can we be friends?
Adam Burr
Powergamers aside, it _would_ happen. If there is one thing that UO has
proved without a doubt it is that you can _never_ underestimate the number
of people who will play for no reason other than to ruin the enjoyment of
others. Powergamers or no, people _would_ drag people down for no profit.
This is why I'm so thoroughly against the occassionally suggested idea of
having bans be instituted if enough people complain about one person-
groups of assholes _will_ get the good people thrown out. Similarly,
groups of assholes _will_ in their spare time drive people to outcast or
what have you when they get bored.
We have to watch for it. It doesn't mean there isn't a way to get it to
work. But loopholes need to be closed with something stronger than it just
being unprofitable to be exploited, I'm sorry to say.
Madman Across the Water
--
-==UDIC==- Goldenflame Dragon UO: The Magister, Chesapeake
: For the record, you don't need a third party program to be stupid :
: in UO, but they will help you be stupid more efficiently. ... I like to :
: think that I don't need a program to be stupid. -- Elinarson of Occlo :
Seasons
Everything done, battle, skill use, etc, adds to a virtue but subtracts
from another. Perhaps just talking for long strtches will increase
spirituality but decrease valor.
This keeps in line with the virtue thingie itself from U(4?).
Now if i pull up someones paperdoll, i can guess what he likes doing. If
he has great valor, he's probably into fighting, etc. A cap on how much
valor could be gained perhaps per server reboot should be implemented
too. To reach the highest levels of that virtue, they would have to
spend x amount of days. If their virtue drops by some amount, they need
to spend more than x days to get it. This would prevent the instant
epitome of valor or sacrifice people appearing in a day. As for the
value of x i would think that 90 days would be good.
Why 90? Well the charter edition is 90 days but if a true newbie started
playing, then he wouldn't be able to get the highest level of whatever
virtue. This would get the person to stay in game to complete this goal
(people need closure) and thus increase the playerbase. It would also
give the older players something to do. The weekend warriors would be
screwed though as they would take much much longer to acheive it.
Kerry Jane wrote:
> The UO paper doll gets edited. Instead of saying "The Illustrious ImUrGod,
> Grandmaster Scholar" ... it would simply say ImUrGod, Grandmaster Scholar.
> That frees up a bit of room underneath. Usually.
>
> Then a little bit is added along the bottom. Eight smallish icons (not
> huge, but big enough so that you can tell what they are) are added to the
> paper doll. One for each of the eight virtues. The icons change color,
> depending on how virtuous/anti-virtuous you are. So that someone bringing
> up someone's paper doll would know, generally, if they are Safe. If you
> used Rainbow Colors... or even Rainbow colors plus Black & White (to add in
> for your good & evil).... if the person's icons are all Red, they are
> probably not someone you want to go hunting with. If the person's icons
> are all Purple... then they're (*cough*apowergamer*cough*) probably safe.
>
> Okay - here's the other part.
<snip>
Seasons
<snip solution>
> of course this could be exploitable but it would be extremely difficult and without
> much benefit to exploiters anyway.
I beg to differ. It's not very diffcult to exploit and it cuts both
ways. Now lets say Mr X is an anti and has made a lot of enemies with
guilds. Now these guilds see Mr X being nominated, they immediately get
their guilds to post nay votes.
Now powergamer mentality is pretty simple to understand. They want to be
top dog, which means top in everything, including fame/karma, but with
minimum risk. If its safer than ev-ing drakes, you can be sure they will
do it.
<snip>
Lexically Dense
>Powergamers aside, it _would_ happen. If there is one thing that UO has
>proved without a doubt it is that you can _never_ underestimate the number
>of people who will play for no reason other than to ruin the enjoyment of
>others. Powergamers or no, people _would_ drag people down for no profit.
this is true but it would take so much effort to take someone down that it wouldnt
be worthwhile no matter how much time you had on your hands and no matter
how misanthropic you were. you have to do it by account and only once per week,
if you run around slandering other people, the cost to your fame/karma/virtue is
high so in order to reduce someone to really low youd need a lot of it to begin
with. also the idea i proposed isnt people being able to just drop someones karma
by just saying it, they must create the poll. if youre the victim im sure that there
would be many who would readily refute the claim by the poll creator and the end
result; you would raise rather than drop.
Lexically Dense
>
>I beg to differ. It's not very diffcult to exploit and it cuts both
>ways. Now lets say Mr X is an anti and has made a lot of enemies with
>guilds. Now these guilds see Mr X being nominated, they immediately get
>their guilds to post nay votes.
but it would take many many people to push someone down this way, since the
loss/gain would be small compared to the fame/karma outlay by those voting and
im sure Mr X would have friends willing to vote yes for him. perhaps a longer time
limit say a person can only be nominated once per week and a person can only
make nominations once per week, voting on any poll counts as having used your
vote for the week.
>Now powergamer mentality is pretty simple to understand. They want to be
>top dog, which means top in everything, including fame/karma, but with
>minimum risk. If its safer than ev-ing drakes, you can be sure they will
>do it.
the damage to ones own fame/karma would far outweigh the damage done, even
now "i honour thee" doesnt give a large gain in karma to anyone, unless of course
in the above scenario a guild of 100 GLs decide to put a guy down... this doesnt
really seem like a realistic scenario though no matter how misanthropic and
antisocial the UO community may seem to some.
Michael Wiktowy
Raph Koster wrote:
>
[snip]
> >Coward. I want EVERYONE to know that he is Dishonorable and Deceitful. I
> >want to be able to tell the game this... and have it show, somehow.
>
> Any specific ideas on how? I don't know how many times we have put
> enhanced reputation systems on the table, only to take them off
> because of fear of abuse.
[more snip]
I have read some of the ideas following this thread and agree that there is
some serious potental for abuse. I think that I have come up with a solution
that would curb, if not eliminate the abuse, yet keep the virture rating system
intact.
One could limit the scope of the antivirtue display to your own account or
the people who you want to share it with (and who trust you enough to accept
your evaluation of people you've met). For example, when I first played UO, I
kept an in-game book in my bank where I wrote the names of players who had done
me wrong somehow (since I have a very crappy memory). However, this quickly
became unwieldy to use and to share. If this was implemented in some sort of
client side database system where I could target players, modify their
perceived virture as I see it and share this info with trusted in-game friends
... now *that* would be an effective tool. The database could be stored on the
users computer and be indexed on the scoundrels account id ... not their name
... so that their other mules ... I mean ... characters show up as unvirtuous
as well. Then when you pull up someones paper-doll, the client could look up
the accounts virtue as you and your friends have ranked it, and provide some
sort of display right on the paperdoll or in their profile. This would allow
info about deceitful activities to desseminate among a circle of friends/guild
very effectively. It doesn't matter if you can hack into the database since it
is for your own and your friends use only and keeping on the client side would
eliminate that massive storage issues on the server that this would entail.
There are numerous details to be worked out such as:
- can you transfer only opinions of selected inividuals
- can you raise your opinion of them again after they do a good deed
- can you put comments on how they screwed you over tagged to the entry
- can the database be transfered outside the game (somewhat like UOAM .map
files)
Just a thought thrown out for the ng's opinions,
Thanks for listening
mike
Raph Koster
>Raph Koster <rko...@origin.ea.com> wrote:
>> But I would LOVE to have some way for players to do this.
>eeeeyeah. I got more. so much for housework. Heating up my chicken chow
>mein, and thinking: "But how would they *see* it??"
These ideas sound similar to what Darius (I think it was him?) posted
yesterday, and also similar to things we have considered in the past.
The main thing we have been worried about is whether it would be just
too easy to become high in a virtue by "playing the game." Thoughts?
Quaestor
> These ideas sound similar to what Darius (I think it was him?) posted
> yesterday, and also similar to things we have considered in the past.
> The main thing we have been worried about is whether it would be just
> too easy to become high in a virtue by "playing the game." Thoughts?
Roleplaying. Let those who wish good titles notify Seers (a general email
queue will do fine), who will then judge them based on secret observation, and
the presentation of opportunities (not obvious ones) for roleplaying and good
citizenship. And once a title is confered, follow up to see if they slide back
into yuechiness. Of course, first you have to select Seers (or maybe create a
new class of volunteers to handle this?) who will do the job responsibly and
well.
*nudge*
Kerry Jane
> These ideas sound similar to what Darius (I think it was him?)
> posted yesterday,
I don't think I read it. Am reading it now though.
> and also similar to things we have considered in the past.
> The main thing we have been worried about is whether it
> would be just too easy to become high in a virtue by
> "playing the game." Thoughts?
It shouldn't be easy to become high in a virtue - period. Not as easy as
it was for me to become Famed. Virtue shouldn't even necessarily be
something that you *work on* ... like you specifically work on fame/karma
hunting.
As for 'playing the game' ... people shouldn't *know* they have just
lost/been given Virtue, so that they wouldn't be able to macro the things
that obviously made them virtuous.
Randomness is a factor in 'playing the game' also.
Macroing should be considered unvirtuous... whether macroing skills or
virtue or whatever.
Bob Roland
Raph Koster wrote:
> These ideas sound similar to what Darius (I think it was him?) posted
> yesterday, and also similar to things we have considered in the past.
> The main thing we have been worried about is whether it would be just
> too easy to become high in a virtue by "playing the game." Thoughts?
Same as yours, I imagine. I mean, I like the idea of being rewarded for
virtue. The fact of the matter is that there's no way to "code" what is
virtuous, and what isn't.
Honesty? How do you code that?
Sacrifice? I guess giving gifts of value to beggars and other players
count, but how do you define a things value, both to the giver and the
one who recieves the gifts? I have about 50 magical bows sitting in my
house. Such a thing holds no value to me, but any code you implemented
would see it as great value. I wouldn't be making a sacrfice if I got
rid of 'em.
Compassion? A coomputer can't tell how you feel about another person.
If i refrain from killing another person, is it because I fel mercy for
them, or because I don't have the time to spare (or want to take the
murder counts)
Justice? Justice is more than killing bad people. It's not that simple
a virtue (indeed, none of them are). Let's say I kill everyone who I
see that's red. Is that dispensing Justice? Of course not. Many reds
have reasons why they are reds. If you could tell the guilty from the
innocent, the noto system could work.
Honour? I suppose you could make a duelin system, where a person who
refuses loses it...but is that the virtue is all about? Some people are
honourable simply because they refuse to fight...ever.
Humility? Once again, it's the old "computer cannot tell how I really
feel".
Valour? See Honour. Besides, there's a fine subjective line between
bravery and stupidity. I don't want people rewarded because they take
on something too tough for 'em.
Spirituality? I won't even touch this one.
I know most of you folks are sick of me making this point, but a life of
following the virtues in game is it's own reward. Hell, that's the root
of all morality anyways....it's moral because it works. If you could
hold a society together on lies, murder and deciet we would view those
things as the highest moral standard.
It's not too hard to tell the difference between a virtous person and
someone who isn't...just spend time with them. I've been rewarded time
and time again by following the virtues (as imperfectly as I do) not by
game mechanics, but by the people I've helped, and those I've served as
an example for.
If you could code morality, I'm sure you would. Hell, if it was that
simple you would be able to tell another person by their title.
In Ultima IV it was possible to make a prson examine the virtues because
the world was a completely controled environment. Obviously in an
online game you don't have that....and if you did, it wouldn't be worth
playing (see any of my rants against PK switches, EQ, or restrictions on
players behavior). Besides, the majority of the people who won at UIV
did so by understanding the mechanics, rather than the virtues (hey, I
was like 11 or 12...I sure as helll didn't win because I actually was a
virtuous person)
Great Bob
Corwin Of Amber (WindElders, ATL)
>queue will do fine), who will then judge them based on secret observation, and
>the presentation of opportunities (not obvious ones) for roleplaying and good
>citizenship. And once a title is confered, follow up to see if they slide back
>into yuechiness. Of course, first you have to select Seers (or maybe create a
>new class of volunteers to handle this?) who will do the job responsibly and
>well.
>
>*nudge*
Quaestor would be the last person on earth who should have any power
to judge or use on other players.
Lady Persephone
>
> And one question before I end... Where does one find black sandals?
>
> Whisper of Yew - Baja
I've always gotten my colored sandals from either the mages or
alchemists in the mage tower west of Trinsic or in Buccaneer's Den. In
Bucs Den you don't have to worry about the guards and if you look
around for awhile you can find black, red, and sometimes royal blue
sandals.
Good luck.
:)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Lady Persephone
What shard is this on? I would gladly add myself to the militia on the
hunt for this sandaltheiving little pest. I have characters on Baja
and Catskills.
Phillip Weiss
across the Shrine of Sacrifice for the first time. Since I knew that
shrines had no "real" (read: benefit via game mechanics) purpose in UO, I
decided to spend a little while remembering the town of Minoc as it existed
in U4, and what I had been told then of the virtue of Sacrifice. For a
while, I struggled to remember the mantra for Sacrifice, finally did, said
it three times together several times, and contemplated in Real Life (tm)
the nature of Sacrifice, how Love and Courage combine to make up Sacrifice,
and so on and so forth. I must say I enjoyed that bit of contemplation.
Didn't help my character a smidgen, but I personally felt better afterwards.
Now, I'm sure I would have felt different if, while I was engaged
contemplating the Virtues, some kewlio came along and said "sup, biotch, y u
hganin @ dis stoopid-azz srhin??/ u luzeR fagit!!!" Actually, on second
thought, I think such an encounter would have made my appreciation for the
Virtues and their shrines sweeter and more relevent.
Bob Roland
Phillip Weiss wrote:
>
> I agree with Bob's view here. Earlier this week, my mage Magda stumbled
> across the Shrine of Sacrifice for the first time. Since I knew that
> shrines had no "real" (read: benefit via game mechanics) purpose in UO, I
> decided to spend a little while remembering the town of Minoc as it existed
> in U4, and what I had been told then of the virtue of Sacrifice. For a
> while, I struggled to remember the mantra for Sacrifice, finally did, said
> it three times together several times, and contemplated in Real Life (tm)
> the nature of Sacrifice, how Love and Courage combine to make up Sacrifice,
> and so on and so forth. I must say I enjoyed that bit of contemplation.
> Didn't help my character a smidgen, but I personally felt better afterwards.
Yah. For a while I was on a "virtue quest" where I would dye my robe
the colour of the virtue, walk to the shrine and try to emulate the
virtue. I didn't finish, but I'm looking foward to doing it again
sometime real soon.
I would hate to meet someone named "Stone Cold" at the shrine tryting to
up his virtue points for Phat loot.
Great Bob
Phillip Weiss
>
> Yah. For a while I was on a "virtue quest" where I would dye my robe
> the colour of the virtue, walk to the shrine and try to emulate the
> virtue. I didn't finish, but I'm looking foward to doing it again
> sometime real soon.
>
Once I am more comfortable with my character's overall competence, I think I shall
follow in your footsteps, Bob, and undertake such a pilgrimage to the eight
shrines.
>
> I would hate to meet someone named "Stone Cold" at the shrine tryting to
> up his virtue points for Phat loot.
>
Knowing my luck, I will be jumped by some jack-off named "Raistlin" (most likely
misspelled "Rastlin") looking to get his unoriginal paws on my "pHaT rEGz".
John D. James
> "Kerry Jane" <4kerr...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
> >Raph Koster <rko...@origin.ea.com> wrote:
> >> But I would LOVE to have some way for players to do this.
>
> >eeeeyeah. I got more. so much for housework. Heating up my chicken chow
> >mein, and thinking: "But how would they *see* it??"
>
> These ideas sound similar to what Darius (I think it was him?) posted
> yesterday, and also similar to things we have considered in the past.
> The main thing we have been worried about is whether it would be just
> too easy to become high in a virtue by "playing the game." Thoughts?
>
Simple, make it so that rising "too fast" in any one virtue causes Humility to
drop. Or, since Valor and Compassion are kinda opposites (it's hard to be
compassionate when you're always fighting) Increasing Valor quickly causes
Compassion to drop, although not as much as Valor raised.
I'm kinda working on a virtue system in a mental batch-mode. Give me a couple
of weeks. . . . .
--
If at first you don't succeed,
alter reality
mailto:jo...@premier1.net
Adam Burr
notes, stole some ideas from Darius and Kerry Jane... :> But one idea that
I saw somewhere else in this thread that I wanted to develop a little at
the moment is: quests. A whole lotta quests that include decisions, which
can up your virtue. This can put it in a controlled enough environment
that we can rate it and have the computer watch. It is unfortunate that
you can only up virtue during quests but not oo bad. Now, the important
part- in most of the quests, PKing negates the quest, or at least the
virtue gain (except perhaps Valor... but I think if being virtuous gives
benefits that one gives the least benefits as, in UO, it is pretty
clearly one of the easiest to raise). Thus, while it doesn't stop the PKs
from trying to gain virtue to add to their "I have all the best numbers"
mentality, at least they aren't PKing while they do it...
The problem then becomes coding out of Quest ways for virtue to drop. I
leave that for now.
Kerry Jane
> Same as yours, I imagine. I mean, I like the idea of being
> rewarded for virtue. The fact of the matter is that there's
> no way to "code" what is virtuous, and what isn't.
You can't code *everything* that is virtuous and not. But you can make it
so the game detects some virtuous and unvirtuous acts.
> Honesty? How do you code that?
Course, you can't code everything that is honest/deceitful. But you can
make the game detect trying to pull off a trade window scam...
> Sacrifice? I guess giving gifts of value to beggars and
> other players count, but how do you define a things value,
> both to the giver and the one who recieves the gifts?
Why is monetary value important in sacrifice? Besides, the UO economy is
so screwed up that money is basically worthless anyway - to everyone except
newbies.
> Compassion? A coomputer can't tell how you feel about
> another person. If i refrain from killing another person,
> is it because I fel mercy for them, or because I don't
> have the time to spare (or want to take the murder counts)
It doesn't matter. We aren't concerned with YOUR compassion. We are
concerned with GREAT BOB'S compassion. While you might not have the time,
great bob certainly does... all Great Bob does is kinda... hang around and
hope that you'll make him move when you *do* have the time.
> Justice? Justice is more than killing bad people. It's not that
> simple a virtue (indeed, none of them are). Let's say I kill
> everyone who I see that's red. Is that dispensing Justice?
> Of course not. Many reds have reasons why they are reds.
> If you could tell the guilty from the innocent, the noto
> system could work.
Yeah, killing innocents isn't just. However, Stealing isn't just either.
I bet I could think of some other things that aren't Just, too.
> Honour? I suppose you could make a duelin system, where
> a person who refuses loses it...but is that the virtue is all
> about? Some people are honourable simply because they
> refuse to fight...ever.
You think that's the only way the game could dectect Honor??
> Humility? Once again, it's the old "computer cannot tell how
> I really feel".
Once again, it's not *you* ... it's Great Bob.
> Valour? See Honour. Besides, there's a fine subjective line
> between bravery and stupidity. I don't want people rewarded
> because they take on something too tough for 'em.
Oh please. You think the game is going to reward a newbie for being in the
same general vicinity as an ancient wyrm?
> Spirituality? I won't even touch this one.
That one is difficult.
> I know most of you folks are sick of me making this point,
> but a life of following the virtues in game is it's own reward.
However, in UO, the life of following the anti-virtues is not its own
punishment.
> It's not too hard to tell the difference between a virtous
> person and someone who isn't...just spend time with them.
Bob - last time I did that, I got PKed, my sandals stolen and locked down
on the guy's porch.
Kerry Jane
> My point is that there's NO WAY a computer could be
> programmed to reward acts like these. Maybe when I
> get to Heaven I'll get raisins with my pudding and an
> extra-wide cloud to sleep on, but until then I expect
> no reward or benefit from selfless acts. I don't see
> how it could be done.
Basically, other players would give it to you - like "I honor thee." The
other players would be Key in picking up where the game could not 'code
morality' as you guys keep saying.
> OSI might be able to do something along those lines in the
> Advanced Quest Engine if they ever get started on it -
> there should be choices along the way where selfless/
> charitable acts are not immediately rewarded but gain
> you some benefit further along in the quest. I dunno.
I do think that the Quest Engine will need to become a part of the Virtue
System.
Bob Roland
Kerry Jane wrote:
> You can't code *everything* that is virtuous and not. But you can make it
> so the game detects some virtuous and unvirtuous acts.
But see, that's kind of the point in my mind. Since the game can't
detect what is truely virtuous and truely unvirtuous you would be left
withan empty hollow shell of the virtues, powergames by those who want
the cool bonuses.
> Course, you can't code everything that is honest/deceitful. But you can
> make the game detect trying to pull off a trade window scam...
But how can you tell a trade window scam from an accident on the part of
the player? If you could really detect a scam, then the more logical
thing, IMHO, would be to fix the scam rather than just reward someone
who doesn't use the bug. Besides, honesty is so much more. The Virtue
of honesty also includes the concept of honesty to self.
> Why is monetary value important in sacrifice? Besides, the UO economy is
> so screwed up that money is basically worthless anyway - to everyone except
> newbies.
That's quite so. ALL the virtues are more complex than could be coded.
Spending time with a newbie is a sacrifice of sorts. As I mentioned,
the value of a sacrifice is a subjective affair, decided upon by the
giver and the one recieving. You can't code the subjective.
> It doesn't matter. We aren't concerned with YOUR compassion. We are
> concerned with GREAT BOB'S compassion. While you might not have the time,
> great bob certainly does... all Great Bob does is kinda... hang around and
> hope that you'll make him move when you *do* have the time.
Well sure...but determining GREAT BOBs motivation is even more difficult
than determining MY motivation....I mean, my avatar dosn't really (as
much as I would like to think different) have his own motivation of
reasons for his actions. Intent is a major portion of being virtuous.
> Yeah, killing innocents isn't just. However, Stealing isn't just either.
> I bet I could think of some other things that aren't Just, too.
Sure, but I've met many people who haven't sole or killed "innocents"
who were not virtuous. For that matter, I've actualy met people who have
stolen an killed "innocents" in the game who followed the virtues much
closer than could be detected by the noto systems in place.
> You think that's the only way the game could dectect Honor??
Nope....in fact i can't think of a SINGLE good way the game could detect
honour. ;)
> Oh please. You think the game is going to reward a newbie for being in the
> same general vicinity as an ancient wyrm?
I would hope not...I just can't think of a way to code this one. You
se, any idea of how to reward a particular virtue will allways fall
short. As much as I wish it was possible it isn't. Then again, since
my principle is that following the virtues is it's own reward, I guess
there isn't much of a point.
>
> > Spirituality? I won't even touch this one.
>
> That one is difficult.
I'ld call it damn near impossible. It's not like you can just say
"we'll only reward 7 of the virtues". It's the whole enchilada or
nothing, IMHO.
> However, in UO, the life of following the anti-virtues is not its own
> punishment.
Sure it is. Deciet is met with deciet, killings met with killings. You
se, following the virtues is not for the sake of "cool stuff". UIV
showed the avatar that following the virtues would lead to rewards...not
from some diine intervention, but because living a life o the virtues
leads to a satisfying life in general.
Breif example. There are some players on Sonoma...a long time ago
(nearly a year and a half) they patrolled the mines of Minoc. Saved my
ass a number of times. They quit the game. This weekend they
returned. They were in a spot, and I helped them out. You see, it was
Karma rewarding itself. Had they been unvirtuous pricks, I would have
left them to their own devices. Instead they were honourable players
and were rewarded as such.
> Bob - last time I did that, I got PKed, my sandals stolen and locked down
> on the guy's porch.
True, bu that guy is KOS fo attacking a "good" person. Hell, I even
dragged out my character from my SBR days and went hunting for him.
Because you are a good person, people want to help you. Karma works
sometimes, and it doesn't need to be coded. :)
Great Bob
Kerry Jane
> But see, that's kind of the point in my mind. Since the game
> can't detect what is truely virtuous and truely unvirtuous
> you would be left withan empty hollow shell of the virtues,
> powergames by those who want the cool bonuses.
Bob - this is the exact same argument as the PK-Switch. Are you seeing
this? I want the game to give us Some Tools to help combat the unvirtuous,
and then let us handle the rest... just like the game gives us Some Tools
to help combat the PKs, and then lets us handle the rest.
And really, I'm not so much wanting to reward the virtuous as punish the
unvirtuous. I don't care if they don't give *any* bonuses to the
virutous - other than little purple icons that show you're a good guy. As
you say, a life of virtue is reward in itself...
That, and life where NPCs will deal with you and you aren't ostricized by
your community are bonuses enough, imo.
> But how can you tell a trade window scam from an accident
> on the part of the player?
Moving things out of the trade window should be considered trying to pull
off a trade window scam. If you screwed up, cancel the entire window and
try again.
> Besides, honesty is so much more. The Virtue of honesty
> also includes the concept of honesty to self.
And where the game could not fill in those gaps, the players will. I don't
WANT the game to be the sole judge of a player's virtue. How terrible! I
want the game to start the ball rolling, and to give us Some Tools to judge
each other.
> Spending time with a newbie is a sacrifice of sorts. As
> I mentioned, the value of a sacrifice is a subjective affair,
> decided upon by the giver and the one recieving. You
> can't code the subjective.
Nope, you sure can't. But again... this is where the players would step
in.
> Sure, but I've met many people who haven't sole or killed
> "innocents" who were not virtuous.
So it will show, then. you realize, now, that the only thing the game
shows is how many people you have or haven't killed, and how many monsters
you have or haven't killed. And that these two things are *related* drives
me absolutely bananas. I mean, if you kill a person, all you have to do is
go out and kill X many monsters, and your slate will be wiped clean (in
terms of karma, anyway). I think that is Wrong.
> Nope....in fact i can't think of a SINGLE good way the
> game could detect honour. ;)
How about getting into a fight with someone - and actually *letting them
live*? That's pretty honorable.
> I'ld call it damn near impossible. It's not like you can
> just say "we'll only reward 7 of the virtues". It's the
> whole enchilada or nothing, IMHO.
I agree. And... I'll figure something out for Spirituality, don't worry.
:P
> Sure it is. Deciet is met with deciet, killings met with killings.
Bleh! And what about those of us who don't want to sink to that level!
What about those of us who realize that Anti-Virtue is *more than combat.*
> You se, following the virtues is not for the sake of "cool stuff".
Yes Bob, I know. And nowhere - ever - did I say that Virtuous people
should get Cool Stuff. Virtuous people already *have* cool stuff - their
virtue. Not only that, but UO is filled to the brim WAY too much with cool
stuff. With lame stuff, too. Just stuff. Stuff is everywhere.
> True, bu that guy is KOS fo attacking a "good" person.
Right. But do you think that will have any effect on this guy at all?
Bob Roland
Kerry Jane wrote:
> Bob - this is the exact same argument as the PK-Switch. Are you seeing
> this? I want the game to give us Some Tools to help combat the unvirtuous,
> and then let us handle the rest... just like the game gives us Some Tools
> to help combat the PKs, and then lets us handle the rest.
>
> And really, I'm not so much wanting to reward the virtuous as punish the
> unvirtuous. I don't care if they don't give *any* bonuses to the
> virutous - other than little purple icons that show you're a good guy. As
> you say, a life of virtue is reward in itself...
>
> That, and life where NPCs will deal with you and you aren't ostricized by
> your community are bonuses enough, imo.
Please understand that I'm really sympathetic to this sort of thing.
Hell, one of my main objections to UO at first was the way the Virtues
were unrewarded (or, rather, the way un-virtuous behavior was not
punished by the game).
The longer I play, the more my opinion has changed. This may sound
pretty stupid, but I've seen how the virtues work in the UO world, and I
se where it's better to follow them than to not follow them. For
example, I see that the players who play the longest are usally the more
virtuous. PK groups seem to fade after not too long. I think this is
because of the notion of "Following the virtues is it's own reward".
The game I play is more rewarding because my character is "virtous"
(flawed, like me, in many ways, but still does his best) than the game
of those who powergame, kill, lie, cheat and steal.
Let's suppose you could, by game code, identify those who follow the
virtues and those who don't. How accurate could it ever be? Could you
ever relky upon that information? I just can't see it.
>
> > But how can you tell a trade window scam from an accident
> > on the part of the player?
>
> Moving things out of the trade window should be considered trying to pull
> off a trade window scam. If you screwed up, cancel the entire window and
> try again.
I see a bunch of newbies being labled "un-virtuous" because of this. :)
>
> > Besides, honesty is so much more. The Virtue of honesty
> > also includes the concept of honesty to self.
>
> And where the game could not fill in those gaps, the players will. I don't
> WANT the game to be the sole judge of a player's virtue. How terrible! I
> want the game to start the ball rolling, and to give us Some Tools to judge
> each other.
I think the only thing I trust less than code is other players.
(carefull, I may just go into my "we live in a world with Jerry
Springer...democracy is a flawed concept" :)
> So it will show, then. you realize, now, that the only thing the game
> shows is how many people you have or haven't killed, and how many monsters
> you have or haven't killed. And that these two things are *related* drives
> me absolutely bananas. I mean, if you kill a person, all you have to do is
> go out and kill X many monsters, and your slate will be wiped clean (in
> terms of karma, anyway). I think that is Wrong.
I agree there actually. :)
> How about getting into a fight with someone - and actually *letting them
> live*? That's pretty honorable.
Or you're just bad at it. I let a PK live on saturday...that because
she was very, very fast.
> I agree. And... I'll figure something out for Spirituality, don't worry.
> :P
well, if anyone can it's you....
>
> > Sure it is. Deciet is met with deciet, killings met with killings.
> Bleh! And what about those of us who don't want to sink to that level!
> What about those of us who realize that Anti-Virtue is *more than combat.*
They're included. People who arejerks in the game get whats coming o
'em even if its no more than social shunning.
> > True, bu that guy is KOS fo attacking a "good" person.
>
> Right. But do you think that will have any effect on this guy at all?
yup. you have people who actually *like* you, he doesn't. that's almost
sad. you'll allways get more out of life and the game because of it.
great bob
Damocles
<4kerr...@geocities.com> wrotd:
>OrionCA <ori...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> My point is that there's NO WAY a computer could be
>> programmed to reward acts like these. Maybe when I
>> get to Heaven I'll get raisins with my pudding and an
>> extra-wide cloud to sleep on, but until then I expect
>> no reward or benefit from selfless acts. I don't see
>> how it could be done.
>
>Basically, other players would give it to you - like "I honor thee." The
>other players would be Key in picking up where the game could not 'code
>morality' as you guys keep saying.
>
A virtue system would be just another point scoring system. It would
have no more meaning than the current fame / karma system does in
determining a character's true virtue. In fact, many of the worst
assholes would work the system and build up a really good virtue
rating, just so they could really screw someone when it counted.
________________________________________________
The truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark.
It scares you witless,
But in time you see things clear and stark.
- Elvis Costello, "I Want You"