Feds - the Next Generation - narrow, 1 - immune JOAT HG
Jason Cawley
Gentlemen:
I offer the following race especially with intermediate players in mind, and
to those who have played the "Feds" before (standard JOAT HG). After you
understand how to play the Feds, there are many directions you can go with
other race design ideas. One I have treated in the past is the Union-style
HP, and of course you can try the other PRTs with a Fed-like approach. More
extreme changes, obviously, are possible but can be hard to learn from, when
you are starting out. If something doesn't work right, you don't know which
thing it was ;-) So it can help to learn how to play a new race idea with
other items remaining similar, at first. And many of the things the Feds
have that make them easy to play could come in handy when trying to learn a
new approach.
In addition, several people here seem interested in -f ideas. Those are
harder to get to work in a real game, especially for an intermediate player.
But the idea of being faster for an early attack, rather than the
late-powerhouse idea of the Union (or Spike's mineral-boosted HPs), can be
fun. One powerful way to get that speed is with a 1-immune, narrow hab
scheme. Intermediates often have trouble (at least at first) with the
narrowness of the hab of one-immune schemes. These guys don't avoid that
problem, but they should let you focus on learning how to handle it pretty
much exclusively.
So I offer the following "TNG" Feds. More discussion after the race
design -
TNG Feds
JOAT
IFE, NRSE, ISB, NAS
Grav Immune
24/144 C
14/44 mR
1/10 overall
19%, 1/1000 pop
12/9/13 factories with the G box checked
10/3/12 mines
weapons cheap, rest expensive with the start at 4 box checked
2 points left, surface minerals
The TNG Feds aren't designed to be optimized for pure resource performance
or even real-game power. They are meant to be easy and fun to play, fast
starting, and without serious weaknesses. They will work best in a galaxy
with a far amount of room - not necessarily per player, just a lot of room.
That is because they spread very well. A medium normal with 8-12 races
would be good. More is ok, less isn't so hot.
Let's look at the starting strengths of the TNG Feds. You start with 24
tech levels (3 in weapons, 5 in prop, rest 4), with fuel mizer engines,
spacedocks, privateers, con 4 mining robots, minelayers, 40 LY built-in
penscans on all scouts and DDs, 120,000 pop in acc BBS (no LSP) and 132
starting resources per year. You also get the big JOAT starting fleet,
including 3 penscanning scout-class ships and a 24 mine-equivalent
mini-miner. So you really start with moving and scouting stuff :-) Yes,
the hab is narrow but there will be more below on how to play that. With
penscanners early and cheap, no one can find their good worlds as well as
you. With mizers, docks, and privateers from the start, few if any can get
to them and spread from them as easily, as soon.
In addition, the HG econ settings give you strong early resource growth;
with JOAT planet-size bonuses you wind up with a maximum planet size in
resource terms of 3072, fine for an HG. For later on, you have remote
mining as a mineral strategy to feed minerals into your producer worlds,
"unlocking" the minerals in all rocks. The tech isn't great, the hab width
isn't great, you have NRSE, and your only "tradable" toy will be remote
miners - but that's about it in the weakness department. All are livable.
How does 1/10 hab work? Many newer players may think that is impossibly
narrow, at least for a non-CA. Well, it can work, because taking an
immunity raises the portion of worlds that are high-value early on. Your
planet "breakdown" and "life-cycles" are a little different, as follows.
You will eventually use roughly 1/3rd of all worlds. That includes all
yellows but the very worst ones (very fair out in both attributes, meaning
moderate-to-low eventual value even after a large amount of terraforming).
The other 2 worlds are either remote mining sites or ones to trade with
allies in intersettling deals. You might, for instance, ask for your 1/3 in
someone else's space, and give him 1/3 in yours. That would still leave you
a mining site in yours for every inhabited world there.
Those 1/3 worlds naturally break down into 3 classes. Class 1 worlds are
initially green, or -1 hab in either attribute (terraformed immediately on
landing, and treated just like greens). All of those worlds will eventually
be perfect (or nearly so for the -1s) and will be high value,
breeder-quality worlds after the completion of a modest amount of
terraforming - like 7 in each of your 2 attributes - if not before. These
worlds are meant to "seed" all the others, and your homeworld is naturally
the first in the class. You use these worlds roughly the same way wide hab
races use 50%+ initial value worlds, as rapidly developed "breeders".
The next 1/3 of your worlds, or Class 2 ones, will be -2 to -7 in one or
both attributes. Those will eventually be high value and will work up to
green by the midgame. You use them the way other, wide hab races would use
low-initial value greens, as "producers" packed from the breeders as they
develop. They have a lag-time up front while turning green, but a livable
one. Your breeders are faster to send them more, while these are slower per
bit of input.
The last 1/3 of your worlds will be deep yellows, Class 3 worlds. You do
want to use them. And don't wait for them to turn yellow to send them their
pop, either - send it to them while they still look red, as long as you see
they will eventually be terraformable. Those worlds you use like wider hab
races use their yellow worlds.
When you expand, try sending 100k to a green world, either all at once or
rapidly after the first guys land. This lets you keep pushing the
expansion, green-to-green, in "viral" fashion. How so? Well, you can make
a dock in 1 year with the pop resources alone. You can terra 1% a year with
those resources likewise. With narrow-immune hab, terraforming will often
have a huge impact on the hab value per click. The dock will refuel the
freighters (privateers with fuel mizers and 3 fuel tanks) already there.
Within 10 years the world should be able to start sending pop to the next
green outward, if it hasn't already been hit - sometimes sooner. On initial
yellows, send 60k pop or more (75k is fine, 3 freighter-loads) and let them
make factories for a few years. The -7 ones, let them terra 1% / year after
hitting 100 resources; the deeper ones put up all the factories first.
All three classes of worlds together will give you a reasonable performance,
similar to what other, wider-hab races can get. The breeders being faster
will about balance out the producers being slower. *But*, if you can
maintain horizontal spreading, breeder-to-breeder, then the side of that
balance you excell at will start outweighing the slower-producer side. The
ideal is to spread in viral fashion through all the greens, 200 or so LY
apart, and then fill in the interior (and/or mine it) after you have been
"checked". The farther you can push that, the more the "faster breeders"
edge will matter.
The TNG Feds should run about 5 years ahead of the standard "playable"
benchmarks for resources and such, down to about midgame. They may slow in
the 40s though, if they don't have enough space to run into. Look for
3000-3500 resources by year 20, 10k in the early 30s. They are a good race
for people who like empire-building, voyages of discovery in bigger galaxies
with negotiations and deals with the races met with, setting up mining
networks, etc. (One tip there - if you use mini-miners with just 1 best
robot at con tech 12 and a fuel mizer, you will pay a bit more per mine
equivalent but the miners will be able to overgate reasonably safely through
300/500s ;-) Only do that with the best robots, though, since those are the
ships that you'll keep forever, and they are also the cheapest so the extra
cost is bearable with them.
Other playing goals that are feasible and useful for the TNG Feds - try to
have 5-10-5-5-4-4 tech by turn 25 or so. That gives you 18 terra to do,
gates, and decent weapons. Then get con 7 and make some remote miners
before turn 30, using the resources from the held HW to help buy mines for
the colonies, effectively ;-) Don't waste resources on miners before con
tech 7 if you can help it, but make 15-30 of the tech 7 ones. You should be
able to have them built by year 30, and they can get you 7500 - 15000 more
kt of G by year 50.
If you aren't used to narrow hab, they may take you a couple trials to get
use to. But they aren't a hard race to play at bottom, and there are a lot
of strengths in their LRTs and starting advantages if you use them to the
fullest. Understand their overall strategic ideal, once again. The way the
TNG Feds win is by spreading faster than others laterally, to get more space
(including intersettled space), with the resource speed to back that up. In
other words, explore new worlds...
I hope this is interesting.
Sincerely,
Jason Cawley
John
(Snipped another staple for the websites by Jason Cawley)
A comment, or perhap a bit more.
I have noticed you trying to evangelising remote mining for JoaTs for
soem time now. You are right of course, JoaTs are very suited to remote
mining.
But I think it is misdirected here. If I have understood correctly,
this is intended as a learning race. And Beginners do not need the
confusion and micromanegment of handleing remote miners. You should
keep things simple, so that the Beginner can see a clear correlation
between actions and total results.
Another thing is the 'factories cost less germanium' box being checked.
A race like this can easilly reach 25k with 4G factories and no G
shipments. G shipments is one of the things the Beginner should learn.
A 4G design would be very playable before learning G shipments, but
then show a more significant improvemnt when used.
So I put thogether a race that I think would be more suitable than your.
JoaT
IFE,ISB,NRSE,OBRM,NAS
Immune, -100C to 36C, 16mR to 46mR (1 in 9)
19% PGR
1/1000
12/9/16 4g
11/3/13
+-++++ No Start@4
3 APs left over: Mineral Concenrations.
The only signifiacnt disadvantage is that Consturction will start at
level 3. The concept of stoping HomeWorld development to research a
level of technology before the HW gets crowded may be an unnecessary
hurdle. But it could be done thgether with early mine building to fuel
the colonisation drive. They shoudl both happen about the same time.
In real play The Bogs shoudl outdo the TNG Feds in all areas until late
in the game. While their total habitation range (including
terraforming) is better than the Feds, they will still have a
significant mineral shortage.
The 11 mine eff. will not help with that, it's just there to let them
compete with 10 mine eff. race having wider hab.
Solutions would be more space controled and extensive intersettlement.
Alien miner would be nice if you were that lucky too.
,John
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Boomer Lu
>Gentlemen:
>
>
>
>I offer the following race especially with intermediate players in mind, and
>to those who have played the "Feds" before (standard JOAT HG). After you
>understand how to play the Feds, there are many directions you can go with
>other race design ideas. One I have treated in the past is the Union-style
>HP, and of course you can try the other PRTs with a Fed-like approach. More
>extreme changes, obviously, are possible but can be hard to learn from, when
>you are starting out. If something doesn't work right, you don't know which
>thing it was ;-) So it can help to learn how to play a new race idea with
>other items remaining similar, at first. And many of the things the Feds
>have that make them easy to play could come in handy when trying to learn a
>new approach.
>
>In addition, several people here seem interested in -f ideas. Those are
>harder to get to work in a real game, especially for an intermediate player.
>But the idea of being faster for an early attack, rather than the
>late-powerhouse idea of the Union (or Spike's mineral-boosted HPs), can be
>fun. One powerful way to get that speed is with a 1-immune, narrow hab
>scheme. Intermediates often have trouble (at least at first) with the
>narrowness of the hab of one-immune schemes. These guys don't avoid that
>problem, but they should let you focus on learning how to handle it pretty
>much exclusively.
>
>So I offer the following "TNG" Feds. More discussion after the race
>design -
You Trekkie! =) Don't worry, as I am one, too.
>TNG Feds
>JOAT
>IFE, NRSE, ISB, NAS
>Grav Immune
>24/144 C
>14/44 mR
>1/10 overall
>19%, 1/1000 pop
>12/9/13 factories with the G box checked
>10/3/12 mines
>weapons cheap, rest expensive with the start at 4 box checked
>2 points left, surface minerals
While I shouldn't argue with "The Master" on Stars! issues, I would say drop
the ISB. I see your reasons on using ISB, but couldn't you just use gates for
the same purpose? Sure, gates are more expensive and they don't refuel ships,
but couldn't you get around that with a few handy boosters? After all, your
resources grow substantially (19% in optimal cases) even without factory
building.
>The TNG Feds aren't designed to be optimized for pure resource performance
>or even real-game power.
I see sort of see that. They *would* be fun to play as I haven't really had the
opportunity to ISB that often. I like ISB, but don't choose it when it is
unnecessary.
>They are meant to be easy and fun to play, fast
>starting, and without serious weaknesses. They will work best in a galaxy
>with a far amount of room - not necessarily per player, just a lot of room.
>That is because they spread very well. A medium normal with 8-12 races
>would be good. More is ok, less isn't so hot.
>
>Let's look at the starting strengths of the TNG Feds. You start with 24
>tech levels (3 in weapons, 5 in prop, rest >4), with fuel mizer engines,
So J patch fixed that kink where you got DLL7s? Cool. I'll probably play JoAT
more often now. But still, dullness is where they are hot. I'd much prefer to
stick with the hard to play, yet very powerful AR.
>spacedocks, privateers, con 4 mining robots, minelayers, 40 LY built-in
>penscans on all scouts and DDs, >120,000 pop in acc BBS (no LSP) and >132
>starting resources per year. You also get the big JOAT starting fleet,
>including 3 penscanning scout-class ships and a 24 mine-equivalent
>mini-miner.
Quite an arsenal =). So, the starting miner starts with the best possible
mines? Didn't know that either (but then, I play OBRM a lot).
>So you really start with moving and scouting stuff :-) Yes,
>the hab is narrow but there will be more below on how to play that. With
>penscanners early and cheap, no one can find their good worlds as well as
>you.
Do I hear warp 8 penscan packets flying around? ;-). Uneconomical, but still
has better penscan range.
>With mizers, docks, and privateers from the start, few if any can get
>to them and spread from them as easily, >as soon.
Do I hear Grav immune CAs popping out? You DO have your point on the tech
though. I still don't think docks are necessary, though. They help a lot (I
remember one of the older records had ISB and that helped), but I'd personally
go for wider hab or better mine settings. Failing that, I tweak my Temp band a
little.
>In addition, the HG econ settings give you strong early resource growth;
>with JOAT planet-size bonuses you wind up with a maximum planet size in
>resource terms of 3072, fine for an HG. For later on, you have remote
>mining as a mineral strategy to feed minerals into your producer worlds,
>"unlocking" the minerals in all rocks. The tech isn't great, the hab width
>isn't great, you have NRSE, and your only "tradable" toy will be remote
>miners - but that's about it in the >weakness department. All are livable.
A good arsenal.
>How does 1/10 hab work? Many newer players may think that is impossibly
>narrow, at least for a non-CA. Well, it can work, because taking an
>immunity raises the portion of worlds that are high-value early on. Your
>planet "breakdown" and "life-cycles" are a little different, as follows.
>
>You will eventually use roughly 1/3rd of all worlds. That includes all
>yellows but the very worst ones (very fair out in both attributes, meaning
>moderate-to-low eventual value even after a large amount of terraforming).
>The other 2 worlds are either remote mining sites or ones to trade with
>allies in intersettling deals. You might, for instance, ask for your 1/3 in
>someone else's space, and give him 1/3 in yours. That would still leave you
>a mining site in yours for every inhabited world there.
>
>Those 1/3 worlds naturally break down >into 3 classes. Class 1 worlds are
Class M worlds you mean? Starfleet designation ofc.
>initially green, or -1 hab in either attribute (terraformed immediately on
>landing, and treated just like greens). All of those worlds will eventually
>be perfect (or nearly so for the -1s) and will be high value,
>breeder-quality worlds after the completion of a modest amount of
>terraforming - like 7 in each of your 2 attributes - if not before. These
>worlds are meant to "seed" all the others, and your homeworld is naturally
>the first in the class. You use these worlds roughly the same way wide hab
>races use 50%+ initial value worlds, as rapidly developed "breeders".
>
>The next 1/3 of your worlds, or Class 2 ones, will be -2 to -7 in one or
>both attributes. Those will eventually be high value and will work up to
>green by the midgame. You use them the way other, wide hab races would use
>low-initial value greens, as "producers" packed from the breeders as they
>develop. They have a lag-time up front while turning green, but a livable
>one. Your breeders are faster to send them more, while these are slower per
>bit of input.
Can't remember what Starfleet calls those.
>The last 1/3 of your worlds will be deep yellows, Class 3 worlds. You do
>want to use them. And don't wait for them to turn yellow to send them their
>pop, either - send it to them while they still look red, as long as you see
>they will eventually be terraformable. Those worlds you use like wider hab
>races use their yellow worlds.
Class Y or Demon Class right? I do believe that Class Y is still habitable
after terraforming. Correct me if I'm wrong here. I'm a Trekkie, but a new one
also.
Yep, it was. I guess the NEXT generation could be Bi-immunes? Hard to make,
IMHO. Taking -f doesn't even completely pay for it.
Of course, this assumes that Tri-immunes are obsolete (which I do believe they
are). I believe that the first generation was probably the Tri-immunes.
Remember back to that scary time where the 4% HE was loathed and feared. Thank
god I wasn't around. Nowadays, the average "Humaniods" could probably beat
them, even in my relatively inexperienced hands.
Boomer
-
"But I canna change the laws of physics, Captain!" - Scotty to Kirk,
innumerable times
"It's difficult to work in a group when you are omnipotent," - Q, upon joining
the crew of the Enterprise, in "Deja Q"
Jason Cawley
John wrote in message <82ig7g$rnk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>But I think it is misdirected here. If I have understood correctly,
>this is intended as a learning race. And Beginners do not need the
>confusion and micromanegment of handleing remote miners.
It is directed mainly at intermediates or beginner-intermediates - players
who have a handle on the original Feds. But it is meant to teach them how
to use 1 immune 2 narrow habitat schemes. And remote mining is part of
playing those schemes, because without remote mining, races that narrow in
hab are extremely weak in the long-run mineral department. So they
definitely are supposed to learn how to use remotes with this race - both
some "remote ramping" in the late 20s to help out, and the use of later-game
remotes to feed more minerals into each producing planet, keeping all the
resources useful for longer.
If I tried to teach people how to use 1 immune 2 narrow without remote
mining, I'd be #1 giving them a bad habit for such races and #2 probably
wind up teaching them such schemes don't work in the long run :-) Not the
lessons aimed at.
>Another thing is the 'factories cost less germanium' box being checked.
>A race like this can easilly reach 25k with 4G factories and no G
>shipments. G shipments is one of the things the Beginner should learn.
>A 4G design would be very playable before learning G shipments,
The original Feds are 4g, and even 10/9/13 factories in some variants (for
those who want the widest initial hab). The TNG Feds are tons easier in the
G department. It is my experience that new players can never seem to get
enough G and worry themselves sick about it :-) Well, the TNG Feds have 3 G
and ability to remote mine. That is important, because unlike wide-hab
races which can afford to discriminate against poor-G worlds (until they
have exports, or simply), a 1/10 race needs to use every habitable world of
any class (1, 2, 3 as explained in the last). Newer players are going to
want G to send to the G-poor places. In addition, this sort of race is
supposed to send 60-75k pop to every yellow or eventual yellow (even before
it turns yellow), and fairly early on. It helps if all those places can
bring a load of Germ along too, since that will let them just build
factories and terraform until they are green. And don't overlook the JOAT G
demand effect. Only 13 factories operated still means 1540 max factories
per planet ;-) So the G demand isn't as low as you might think.
Of course, the Feds aren't optimized for resource performance. A player who
doesn't need all sorts of starting helps might consider trades like no start
at 4 box, no ISB, and/or no G box. And he might use the points to widen hab
slightly, raise facts or mines operated a bit, or buy a cheaper tech field
(like construction). But the start with such a race is considerably rockier
than the smooth-starting TNG Feds, with all the expansion tech in hand from
the get-go, easy secondary colonization, and a good G picture.
Your race does not strike me as more suitable. OBRM strikes me as long-run
suicide, a "rabbit" race that will burn out like a rocket and then will not
be able to withstand solid HP races (especially Spike-style ones). 11 mine
eff won't help much because you use only 1/3 worlds or so, and frankly that
item would probably be better spent on getting the G box back if you are
going to have 2112 operable factories per world. The other changes are all
designed, it seems to me, to ramp resources. Resources just ain't that
important.
Even playing expert-style, I would not trade the remote minerals for
resources like that, as it will just give me a bigger resources to mineral
imbalance; I might well dispense with some starting aids (without taking
OBRM) but I'd be far more likely to look at cheap construction tech than at
16 factories (which need 8448 kt of G per full 100% world, BTW, leaving
little for ships with only 11 mine eff and no remotes). That is all the
minerals from 50 to 27 concentration used just for factories, with likely
another 2 points for defenses and a base. Certainly I wouldn't saddle a
beginner-intermediate with that kind of G problem, the design and fleet mix
problem of low G to spread out (since he may like missle ships, for example,
not really seeing the point of beam-heavy in that case), and the long-run
mountain-sized problem of some HP rivals having 3 times the minerals
extractable from the same number of planets controlled. What does he get in
return? 3854 planet size, which he will only get with non-JOATs by using HP
races that play completely differently.
>Alien miner would be nice if you were that lucky too.
Correct. A race that needs an MT part to win is in trouble when the game
starts :-) The mineral problem simply is not acceptable. And learning how
to solve the mineral problem with remotes is a key point of the race, and
IMO a key part of 1 immune 2 narrow designs generally (HG or not, JOAT or
not).
I recommend you play the TNG Feds. You should find them smooth to play. I
would venture to say, *incredibly* smooth for a 1/10 hab width race. Which
is perfect for someone making the leap from 1/3 or 1/4 no-immune hab. And
in chances to actually win it is a stronger race than yours, because it
lacks crippling weaknesses at any time in the game.
Sincerely,
Jason Cawley
Colonel Shnaps
Boring...
Colonel Shnaps
wrote:
What a stupid post. Moron, newbie, AOLer.
Boomer Lu
You're welcome to your opinions. I take no offense. Your obvious immaturity is
compensation in enough.
John
"Jason Cawley" <jason...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> It is directed mainly at intermediates or beginner-intermediates -
players
> who have a handle on the original Feds.
My misstake then.
> But it is meant to teach them how
> to use 1 immune 2 narrow habitat schemes. And remote mining is part
of
> playing those schemes, because without remote mining, races that
narrow in
> hab are extremely weak in the long-run mineral department. So they
> definitely are supposed to learn how to use remotes with this race -
both
> some "remote ramping" in the late 20s to help out, and the use of
later-game
> remotes to feed more minerals into each producing planet, keeping all
the
> resources useful for longer.
>
> If I tried to teach people how to use 1 immune 2 narrow without remote
> mining, I'd be #1 giving them a bad habit for such races and #2
probably
> wind up teaching them such schemes don't work in the long run :-)
Not the
> lessons aimed at.
I can understan you find the mineral problem unacceptable. But saying
they do not work do not match real experiences. They do win games.
Often. Many games just do not last long enough, or are at least decided
by that time. And there are a number of ways to mitigate the problem.
> Newer players are going to
> want G to send to the G-poor places. In addition, this sort of race
is
> supposed to send 60-75k pop to every yellow or eventual yellow (even
before
> it turns yellow), and fairly early on. It helps if all those places
can
> bring a load of Germ along too, since that will let them just build
> factories and terraform until they are green. And don't overlook the
JOAT G
> demand effect. Only 13 factories operated still means 1540 max
factories
> per planet ;-) So the G demand isn't as low as you might think.
I don't think it is low. My race was designed for true beginners. It is
supposed to increase the G burden, to learn the newbie all those things
you mentioned.
Again, you seem to misstake me. That race is not intended for optimal
play in a real game. It's intended as a superior race for learning.
>
> Even playing expert-style, I would not trade the remote minerals for
> resources like that, as it will just give me a bigger resources to
mineral
> imbalance; I might well dispense with some starting aids (without
taking
> OBRM) but I'd be far more likely to look at cheap construction tech
than at
> 16 factories (which need 8448 kt of G per full 100% world, BTW,
leaving
> little for ships with only 11 mine eff and no remotes)
50% of all statistics are useless. Again, not optimal for serious play.
Even if resources can go along way. The reson I increased the operated
number was more a way of hiding those APs. Other uses would have
changed the characteristics of the race too much.
Well, I don't agree, even of this is partly besides the point. !
immunes with OBRM stil lwins games, and while there is a real problem
wiht the minerals, the point of 1 immunes is being fast enough to grab
additional terretory and keep growing. If they can keep doing that,
intersettle, or find soem other solution, they won't have that much of
a problem.
> I recommend you play the TNG Feds.
Tell, where should I play them?
> You should find them smooth to play. I
> would venture to say, *incredibly* smooth for a 1/10 hab width race.
Care to define "smooth"?
>Which
> is perfect for someone making the leap from 1/3 or 1/4 no-immune
hab. And
> in chances to actually win it is a stronger race than yours, because
it
> lacks crippling weaknesses at any time in the game.
Win in a real game? Probably. Win as a beginners learning tool. No
chance.
Jason Cawley
John wrote in message <833oto$qoh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Strangely put-off comments, it seems to me, but I will try to take them
straightforwardly -
One OBRM narrow 1-immunes, you said -
>I can understan you find the mineral problem unacceptable. But saying
>they do not work do not match real experiences. They do win games.
>Often. Many games just do not last long enough, or are at least decided
>by that time.
I have faced races designed that way that established fine positions, but
did not have the mineral depth to back them up, and defeated them in long
wars. I have also played 1i HGs with remote mining ability, settled far and
wide and divided the diplomatic field, and then used the remote
mineral-gathering ability combined with that speed-achieved space, to build
utterly dominant fleet strengths. Enough so to defeat TT CAs with enourmous
numbers of planets. I have also used and had used on me such OBRM 1i races
in blitzes, with very uneven results, but those are indeed "over quickly".
But they are a special case all around, and not terribly relevant it seems
to me.
In other words, I have seen solid (though I am not claiming the best)
players try it your suggested way and to me their throat was wide open as a
result. Not saying that will be so for all opponents; but it will be for
strong ones. And I have played them my way, and did not have those openings
for others, and won because of it.
Now, when you say "does not match experience", I have to take you at your
word that you have won or seen won many games with such races, although you
don't say so explicitly. I have not seen them win even their fair share
(although they do "get a game" at least their fair share of the time,
perhaps more). But my conclusion from that, taking you at your word, is
about the players involved, frankly. "Decided by that time" I can see if
they involve serious skill imbalances, for example. If the players involve
all use them (obviously - vacuous that they win in that case) - or if the
players involved typically do not use balancing diplomacy against threats -
likewise. I still think that an intermediate learning 1-i's would be
developing bad habits from that, and that against reasonably strong and
evenly matched players it is almost always a bad idea to mix OBRM with 1/10
hab (unless you have TT or something, I suppose).
> That race is not intended for optimal
>play in a real game. It's intended as a superior race for learning.
You think you make it easier to learn with by having a drastically tighter G
problem, fewer starting advantages, and lots more resource capacity in
return for those things? Or do you mean by "superior for learning" that it
is not easier to play, but harder and thus teaches more lessons or
something? You see, I can imagine - as I did before, evidently
misunderstanding you - why someone would want far more resources out of a
similar race for better real game performance, if they felt no need to have
starting and/or G advantages. But if there is one sort of player, IMO, most
likely to be crippled in-game by a big G problem or by starting difficulties
handled wrong, it is a "true beginner", as you say your revision was for.
Pardon, I simply am having a serious problem understanding in what manner
you regard the more-factories variant with OBRM as being a better race for
beginners, or for learning. Not having to think about remote mining I can
see - we went over that. But why more resources and less G, why fewer
starting edges and more resources instead?
>The reson I increased the operated
>number was more a way of hiding those APs. Other uses would have
>changed the characteristics of the race too much.
Ah OK. That I can grok. Just showing that there are extra advantage points
to play with, freed up from other non-essential uses - I can agree with that
certainly. The question is how to spend them in a way that makes things
easiest for a learning player, while still teaching him whatever essential
lesson the race aims at. (E.g. for the original Feds, that lesson is mostly
pop-management, or the importance of sheer numbers of people - for the TNG
Feds, it is spreading in viral fashion, breeder-focused plus the remote
mineral model). In an expert game, I'd throw in con cheap and run to
nubians to spend the remote mined minerals from the wide-flung empire on.
But for a learner, I think a nice G balance and starting things will make
his job easier, and lack of con cheap won't kill him.
>Tell, where should I play them?
Well, you might start by just running a testbed of them before revising
them. But for a real game, play them in a medium with a middling number of
players like 8-12, where there is room to use their spreading speed. (I
don't recommend more than medium simply because of the workload to win large
or huge games - if you don't mind the workload for large, fine. It you
don't mind the workload for huge, get a second job :-)
>Care to define "smooth"?
A smooth race is one that you don't have to bend over backwards, or pull
rabbits out of your hat, to play and play well. One that is very tolerant
of mistakes, hard to miss the right thing to try or do, where good moves are
obvious. Where you don't need to run numbers to see you must make a crash
investment in this or that before the other occurs to stave off the
impending snafu of running short of so-n-sos. Few ship upgrades, few models
or types needed, formulaic actions work and are near-optimal, good factory
to mine tuning, etc.
An example of a "rough" race, that being the opposite of smooth - an HP race
with LSP and cost 8 factories, without starting con 3 and with con normal
expense, that also needs to buy prop 2 after the starting 1 to get mizers or
that doesn't have IFE at all, and without boosted min cons. Turn one the
player faces the task of coordinating - movement of pop at a set and
pressing schedule, need to buy the con tech for efficient moving, need to
make and send out scouts, with or without an improved engine, need to
develop the economy which is pure factories practically, ramps slowly, needs
investment and G management to work right, and faces the trade-off of con 4
for less G but more iron cost of moving, or con 3 for the reverse. In other
words, the player instantly starts with a giant, complicated management
problem with dozens of factors in the air - and if he screws them up over
the first 10 years he can set back his race half a decade, and watch his
neighbors grab everything around him while he is impotently struggling with
his priorities. That is a "rough" race. A smooth race is everything such a
race isn't, in terms of easy to play.
The TNG Feds are smooth. They are hard to fuck up; you'd have to work at
it. You do the obvious things and they fly. Etc.
> Win as a beginners learning tool. No chance.
Huh? Where the heck did that come from?
Sincerely,
Jason Cawley
John
"Jason Cawley" <jason...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> Strangely put-off comments, it seems to me, but I will try to take
them
> straightforwardly -
Hurried perhaps. Without padding, sure. But put off? I think you are
seeing what you expect to see, rather than whats's there.
> In other words, I have seen solid (though I am not claiming the best)
> players try it your suggested way and to me their throat was wide
open as a
> result. Not saying that will be so for all opponents; but it will be
for
> strong ones. And I have played them my way, and did not have those
openings
> for others, and won because of it.
Well, an argument about whos experiences is most true seems pointless
to me, but you could ask others. I'm sure there is plenty of players
here that have succes with 1I HGs with OBRM.
> Now, when you say "does not match experience", I have to take you at
your
> word that you have won or seen won many games with such races,
although you
> don't say so explicitly.
Games I have played in, seen in other ways or just desicribed to me,
sometimes on this group. Don't know if any of them was pure expert,
maybe the mineral disadvatage would be as exploited as you think there,
even if I have a hard time seeing it that dominant. You'd have to plan
ahead tho, but isn't that what experts are all about?
> I have not seen them win even their fair share
> (although they do "get a game" at least their fair share of the time,
> perhaps more). But my conclusion from that, taking you at your word,
is
> about the players involved, frankly. "Decided by that time" I can
see if
> they involve serious skill imbalances, for example. If the players
involve
> all use them (obviously - vacuous that they win in that case) - or if
the
> players involved typically do not use balancing diplomacy against
threats -
> likewise.
They would have had soem incradible luck for that to be the case in
every game. And it really shoudl go both ways for most of those,
woulden't it. 'cept for the diplomacy thing then. And if peopel judge
them corrctly, I can't see why that would hurt them more than others.
> You think you make it easier to learn with by having a drastically
tighter G
> problem,
Yes.
> fewer starting advantages,
No.
> and lots more resource capacity in
> return for those things?
Not much effect really. Not in the period that matters for this race.
> Or do you mean by "superior for learning" that it
> is not easier to play, but harder and thus teaches more lessons or
> something?
Yes, in the case of G that's what I'm trying to acheive. As described
in my firt post. Sorry if it wasn't clear. Text mediums have that
problem. What's obious from my side may be totaly hidden from you.
Also, that was my hope for the no Start@4 thing. Thinking on it, it may
not be good enough. It should probably be a later lesson, and the race
could easily be modiffied for that.
> You see, I can imagine - as I did before, evidently
> misunderstanding you - why someone would want far more resources out
of a
> similar race for better real game performance, if they felt no need
to have
> starting and/or G advantages. But if there is one sort of player,
IMO, most
> likely to be crippled in-game by a big G problem or by starting
difficulties
> handled wrong, it is a "true beginner", as you say your revision was
for.
In acheived potential? It would be hard to tell. You'd expect a
beginner to do worse anyway.
> But why more resources and less G, why fewer
> starting edges and more resources instead?
You said resources twice. Really bothering you that much?
The G is intentional. I want G shipments to have as much impact as
possible. And I think I did well, they could hardly have muc hmore
impact for an HG than this.
The lack of con4 is a problem yes. I mention I wasn't sure about that
in my first post. My original thought was that it should be a important
lesson. Peraps my real resoning was that I'd never use it myself. Kind
of reversed from the 4G thing. The fact the mineral lack for shipping
would get mixed up with it is probably a worse thing than what's gained.
And as I wrote above, taking it away shoudl be easy to do.
So let's put Stars@4 back in. Get the points by shaving away the
rightmost click from temp, and two steps of fact. operated. (The later
ought to make you happy, no?)
> But for a learner, I think a nice G balance and starting things will
make
> his job easier,
You don't want things to be easy. You do want them to be clear and
obvious.
> and lack of con cheap won't kill him.
I have a feeling you inteded to say something else. Am I right?
> Well, you might start by just running a testbed of them before
revising
> them.
Point taken. But I have played with remotes in testebeds and real games
enough to feel sure about their impact.
By your description, I disagree. Smoother than the HP you describe,
earlier at least. I really can't see them as smoother than a 1i HG with
OBRM. Both play fine first, but you need to plan ahead to get the
minerals you need. Sure, the rmote would have a wider window, and
probably one easier to recover from misstakes with. But I find most
people either do or don't.
For a real smooth race I'd prefere a Wide hab HG with OBRM.
> > Win as a beginners learning tool. No chance.
>
> Huh? Where the heck did that come from?
Yeah, put off. Guess how that sounds.
,John (finding this kinda pointless in all)
Damon Domjan
<huge-ass snip>
The point of the 1 immune Jason posted was to teach
beginners/intermediates how to deal with the differences between 1
immune 1/10 and 1/4->1/2 non immune hab - which are substantial. That
means G should be removed as a source of problems. Ditto
transportation worries. 1 immune remote mining multiple cheap IFE
JoAT's can be *very* effective because their hab permits them to
intersettle with multiple people, leading to an empire that's huge and
spread out before people realize how large you are...
Damon
Orca on #Stars!
--
http://dariasounds.home.dhs.org/