New World Record: 156K@50 :)
Asimov
you can have the files if you want, email me and ask. orca has seen the
files, and will verify that its a legit race/legit conditions
the old record was 150k by...... uhm... .shit, who was it again orca?
all tests were in a small, packed, max min's (old record included)
sitting around bored one day, and decided to see if i could get a race over
100K by 50... after several attempts, i finally got 110K a few days ago....
felt really happy with that, but knew i could do better, and knew that the
record wasnt that far away, and gave me something to shoot for... so, tried
again yesterday, and got 138K, only 12K away, i knew i could make it :)
and today, i did, 38K@40, and 156K@50
the race isnt exactly what most people would consider a playable race in a
game... but in the right circumstances, it could be deadly, it REALLY shows
how unbalanced CA is, i'm playing a similar race in a pbem right now, and
doing pretty well, but i wouldnt recommend it, its a real pain in the ass both
to testbed and to play, and because of that, i'm not doing as good as i should
be.
CA - 0 left over
ife, tt, is, nrse, ce, obrm, nas
20% 1 in 14, almost centered
1/1000 15/8/15g 10/3/10
bio cheap, rest expensive
yes, i do realize thats too many LRT's, you dont have to point that out :)
it wasnt a particularly good planet draw either - about average i would say.
i tried to get 150K to each green... that was generally 3 trips, a 80%+ world
will supply 50K pop a year at a 25% hold
now.... for something that should bring up a good bit of discussion:
after all this testing, i have come to the opinion that real close to 200K by
50 is possible is you are willing to do the MM, in my test, the only real MM i
did was to reuse my priv's instead using them to colonize with like i used to
:)
any other questions about the test, i'll try to answer them as best i can
Damon Domjan
wrote:
>yes, its true :)
>
>you can have the files if you want, email me and ask. orca has seen the
>files, and will verify that its a legit race/legit conditions
Yup. And he damned near colonized everything in sight :)
>the old record was 150k by...... uhm... .shit, who was it again orca?
Jimstang (and prior to him, Thomas Phister and Barry Kearns in
decending order.)
>all tests were in a small, packed, max min's (old record included)
Actually I think Jim's *may* have been a medium packed...not sure. I
remember Thomas using a large with an nf CA to get something like 130
or 140k...
<snip>
>the race isnt exactly what most people would consider a playable race in a
>game... but in the right circumstances, it could be deadly
...or with the right modifications. It wouldn't take much to make it
playable - tone down the bad LRT's, maybe take it to 14/9/16g and try
to get weapons cheap...maybe drop ISB to help pay for it...or go to
19%. If you limit its ability to grow slightly you can afford a
second cheap and end up without the current crippled LRT's. Looks
kinda like a TT varient of the blitz Darianites as it stands right now
though... :)
>it REALLY shows
>how unbalanced CA is
Yup. It's so unbalanced it isn't even funny.
>after all this testing, i have come to the opinion that real close to 200K by
>50 is possible is you are willing to do the MM, in my test, the only real MM i
>did was to reuse my priv's instead using them to colonize with like i used to
>:)
Well, the thing is that beyond a certain point, pop MM becomes
counterproductive - you're maximizing your pop growth, but at the
expense of pop on the ground helping to man and build factories. Now
perhaps if you were shipping G too...
Damon
Orca on #Stars!
--
http://dariasounds.home.dhs.org/
Bennett
>yes, its true :)
>
Wow - congratulations :o)
<big snip>
>after all this testing, i have come to the opinion that real close to 200K
by
>50 is possible is you are willing to do the MM, in my test, the only real
MM i
>did was to reuse my priv's instead using them to colonize with like i used
to
>:)
>
>
Questions:
Do out think CE was too much of a hindrance: or more specifically could you
lose it and so get less growth lost in transit?
Did you use scout boosters?
How closely did you watch the growth on each planet (ie using the reports
and keeping everywhere pretty much at 25%)?
I assume it was MM right up until 2450...?
Aside from all that, did you _really_ have to post the design for all our
potential enemies to gawp at??! ;-)
Cheers
Bennett
Jason Cawley
Asimov wrote in message ...
Congratulations, Asimov, and well done indeed :-)
Sincerely,
Jason Cawley
Asimov
server for that, cant even post via deja because i forgot my pass... so, since
my posts are showing up... here goes
In article <80rcrr$1ra$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,
"Bennett" <nj...@spam.ac.uk> wrote:
> Do out think CE was too much of a hindrance: or more specifically could you
> lose it and so get less growth lost in transit?
well, all my previous tests were without CE... i took it on gakl's advice to
use that to go from cost 9 to cost 8 factories... it was obvious it slowed
down colonization somewhat, and i almost didnt even finish the test because of
that, but i decided to see it through, and well... you see the results
as far as loosing it, yes, it would help, but would what it cost hurt more
than it could help? that i cant really say... but i dont recommend going back
to cost 9 fact's... you could lose some hab for it. i did the 138K@50 with a
race that was... 1 in 32 i think? 1 in 30something anyway, it was a bit slower
off the start, but once that terra starts kicking in.... watch out :)
> Did you use scout boosters?
no, priv's and colony ships is all i used
> How closely did you watch the growth on each planet (ie using the reports
> and keeping everywhere pretty much at 25%)?
by hitting f3 every year, and checking each planet, if it was over 230K pop, i
made sure there were ships already there, or would be there in one year... if
not, i built two priv's, and shiped out the pop, i held at 25% on most planets
(some were at 50%) till 40
> I assume it was MM right up until 2450...?
nope, i think i managed about 10 ships after 40 (were already on their way)
other than that, i just gen'd after 40
i have testbeded quite a few of these now, and one of the first things i
tested was the impact of MM between 40 and 50, and there just isnt that much
impact, if anything, you will end up losing res because of it.
this ties into one of the reasons i think close to 200K is possible, if i had
spent from 35 to 40 backfilling my worlds that already had green'd out
queues....
> Aside from all that, did you _really_ have to post the design for all our
> potential enemies to gawp at??! ;-)
hahahah, i'm playing a similar race now in a pbem... and let me tell you, its
not all fun and games, if somebody wants to try to use that race in a real
game, more power to them.... and they better have plenty of time on their
hands after about 30, because just the management of that empire is a hassle,
much less trying to MM it....
of course... i just gen'd 10 more years to see what it would be at in 60...
and it was just starting to end its ramp... at 290K... thinking about meeting
that in a real game is enough to give you a fatal case of the twitches
asimov@efnet
asimov@starlink
Asimov
world, but looks like it missed this one (at least going by deja)
"Asimov" <asi...@oldwarez.com> wrote in message
news:lkjY3.137$k4.5...@news1.usit.net...
asimo...@my-deja.com
hell right now, and has been for way too long
nope, i think i managed about 10 ships after 40 (were already on thier
way) other than that, i just gen'd after 40
i have testbeded quite a few of these now, and one of the first things i
tested was the impact of MM between 40 and 50, and there just isnt that
much impact, if anything, you will end up losing res because of it.
this ties into one of the reasons i think close to 200K is possible, if
i had spent from 35 to 40 backfilling my worlds that already had
green'd out queues....
> Aside from all that, did you _really_ have to post the design for all
our
> potential enemies to gawp at??! ;-)
hahahah, i'm playing a similar race now in a pbem... and let me tell
you, its not all fun and games, if somebody wants to try to use that
race in a real game, more power to them.... and they better have plenty
of time on their
hands after about 30, because just the management of that empire is a
hassle,
much less trying to MM it....
of course... i just gen'd 10 more years to see what it would be at in
60...
and it was just starting to end its ramp... at 290K... thinking about
meeting
that in a real game is enough to give you a fatal case of the twitches
asimov@efnet
asimov@starlink
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Andre' Connell
: hm... trying to post this again, my news server usually gets to the outside
: world, but looks like it missed this one (at least going by deja)
: "Asimov" <asi...@oldwarez.com> wrote in message
: news:lkjY3.137$k4.5...@news1.usit.net...
:> this probably isnt threaded correctly, you can thank my bloody useless news
:> server for that, cant even post via deja because i forgot my pass... so,
: since
:> my posts are showing up... here goes
:>
Grats on the 156k!!! wow! Unfortunately we didn't see the first post here,
so we didn't get to read any of the nitty gritty :> Perhaps you could repost
it? Kane and I would like to try and beat the record, but what type of galaxy
is allowable etc etc? Anything goes? Max mins? Small packed?
Will be watching, ciao!
Andre
(silentb0d - sometimes on #stars!
Asimov
"Andre' Connell" <acon...@maxim.cs.sun.ac.za> wrote in message
news:80v45q$igm$1...@news.adamastor.ac.za...
small, packed, max min's, no other players
text from the first message follows:
========================
yes, its true :)
you can have the files if you want, email me and ask. orca has seen the
files, and will verify that its a legit race/legit conditions
the old record was 150k by...... uhm... .shit, who was it again orca?
all tests were in a small, packed, max min's (old record included)
sitting around bored one day, and decided to see if i could get a race over
100K by 50... after several attempts, i finally got 110K a few days ago....
felt really happy with that, but knew i could do better, and knew that the
record wasnt that far away, and gave me something to shoot for... so, tried
again yesterday, and got 138K, only 12K away, i knew i could make it :)
and today, i did, 38K@40, and 156K@50
the race isnt exactly what most people would consider a playable race in a
game... but in the right circumstances, it could be deadly, it REALLY shows
how unbalanced CA is, i'm playing a similar race in a pbem right now, and
doing pretty well, but i wouldnt recommend it, its a real pain in the ass both
to testbed and to play, and because of that, i'm not doing as good as i should
be.
CA - 0 left over
ife, tt, is, nrse, ce, obrm, nas
20% 1 in 14, almost centered
1/1000 15/8/15g 10/3/10
bio cheap, rest expensive
yes, i do realize thats too many LRT's, you dont have to point that out :)
it wasnt a particularly good planet draw either - about average i would say.
i tried to get 150K to each green... that was generally 3 trips, a 80%+ world
will supply 50K pop a year at a 25% hold
now.... for something that should bring up a good bit of discussion:
after all this testing, i have come to the opinion that real close to 200K by
50 is possible is you are willing to do the MM, in my test, the only real MM i
did was to reuse my priv's instead using them to colonize with like i used to
:)
John
came after Jasons post. Oh, and congrats.
,John
Stephen Donald
Now the challenge is out.
Who is going to be the first to break 156K by 2450?
Challenge not open to Orca.
Sounds like there is still heaps of MM to help this 20%CA along to greater
heights.
I wait with interest.
Regards,
Stephen Donald
Grey on #Stars! IRC
Andre' Connell <acon...@maxim.cs.sun.ac.za> wrote in message
news:80v45q$igm$1...@news.adamastor.ac.za...
> Grats on the 156k!!! wow!
<snip>
>
> Andre
Asimov
news:wnMY3.211$VA6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> OK.
> Now the challenge is out.
> Who is going to be the first to break 156K by 2450?
>
> Challenge not open to Orca.
oh? i'd like to see what he could do if he would actually take the time to
manage it
> Sounds like there is still heaps of MM to help this 20%CA along to greater
> heights.
> I wait with interest.
well, i'll stand by my statement that somewhere real close to 200K is possble,
and 3 people have contacted me for info to try to top it.... so there are
people out there trying, i dont think it will be too long till its topped :)
my next challenge: 100 standard arm bb's before 2447...
i see several ways to approach this, and wondering what people had to say
about it
HE: 12-14% before doubling and one immune along with decent factories might
just do it... come to think of it, my roaches might be able to do this even
better than the higher growth..... hm, testbed's testbed's.. sigh
-f CA: ca is just so bloody fast, and -f CA is even faster
tt CA: similar race as i used to break the record above, i had +15 terra in
the early 30's, with a few less planets than i had in this test, normal bio,
cheap wep.... some backfilling earlier, and it might be able to beat it also
lf WM: having a small amount of factories, early green queues, 3.5 cheap,
19-20% growth and one immune... well, between the cheap warships, loads of
early tech... maybe this would be the route to take
CA: how about a 20% growth, wide hab, NON-tt with a good bit of cheap tech...
or to really go out on a limb with another idea... make it 1/1000 15/5/14g
12/3/16 or so... but with max min's and cost 5 fac's, i would have to test it
and see what the optimal mines are
well... theres a few ideas, what do you all think?
overw...@my-deja.com
"Asimov" <asi...@oldwarez.com> wrote:
[snip]
> my next challenge: 100 standard arm bb's before 2447...
>
> i see several ways to approach this, and wondering what people had to
say
> about it
Well, I have some older testbed results I can toss out - using races
designed for games, not just testbedding...
>
> HE: 12-14% before doubling and one immune along with decent factories
might just do it... come to think of it, my roaches might be able to do
this even better than the higher growth..... hm, testbed's testbed's..
sigh
>
> -f CA: ca is just so bloody fast, and -f CA is even faster
>
Have one that did it in 2556. A CA HG design has hit it in 2554. I
think with some tweaking and what I know know from more recent tests
and game experience I can definitely improve upon this.
> tt CA: similar race as i used to break the record above, i had +15
terra in the early 30's, with a few less planets than i had in this
test, normal bio, cheap wep.... some backfilling earlier, and it might
be able to beat it also
I suspect that a variant here will be the one to do it, probably
following something similar to the strategy you theorize above.
>
> lf WM: having a small amount of factories, early green queues, 3.5
cheap, 19-20% growth and one immune... well, between the cheap
warships, loads of early tech... maybe this would be the route to take
I doubt it. You get a jump with the Weapons tech, but the CA TT is
getting a jump with the terraforming tech and also not paying for the
terraforming.
>
> CA: how about a 20% growth, wide hab, NON-tt with a good bit of cheap
tech...
> or to really go out on a limb with another idea... make it 1/1000
15/5/14g
> 12/3/16 or so... but with max min's and cost 5 fac's, i would have to
test it
> and see what the optimal mines are
>
> well... theres a few ideas, what do you all think?
>
Any possibility that a JOAT HG (or HP) might be a contender? The extra
20% planet size would allow one to build up economy on fewer planets
and probably save on terraforming costs. And the pen-scanning will
help immensly with the preliminary scouting.
- Kurt
OWK on #stars!
--
"I don't pay attention to what men say, I just watch what they do."
- Andrew Carnegie
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana."
- Groucho Marx
Damon Domjan
wrote:
>"Stephen Donald" <sdo...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
>news:wnMY3.211$VA6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> OK.
>> Now the challenge is out.
>> Who is going to be the first to break 156K by 2450?
>>
>> Challenge not open to Orca.
>
>oh? i'd like to see what he could do if he would actually take the time to
>manage it
I considered it for about 30 seconds. Then I remembered the following
problem:
>> Sounds like there is still heaps of MM to help this 20%CA along to greater
>> heights.
So I gave it up as a bad idea :)
Schnobs
would have to be something different... no CA. My initial
idea was to take an IT and be picky with the universe;
having a second breeder from the first turn could maybe make up
for only 19% growth, and having all the necessary tech ready
at start also sounds good. Not to forget the gains gate travel.
But somehow I wasn't satisfied with race wizard output...
My assumption was that terraforming negative planets
for a non-ca should be done only in the few cases where a
worlds jumps to 35%+ immediately.
Therefore, any non-CA would need to live with the initial
greens. As there are 240 planets in a small packed, this means
80 planets for 1/3, or 60 for 1/4...
What struck me as odd was that it seemed as if you'd always need
660k pop per planet to reach 150k - or rather more, as this assumes
that you operate the maximum factories, but ofc they're likely to be
a little behind.
The increase in number of factories went well with the decrease in
habitable planets.
Of course, this first of all means that you have to get an average
value of over 60% in time to fill the planets.
Once I had the calculator handy, I also checked the required pop
growth...
12.5% is the absolute minimum; Asimov must have had 13% +-0.1, or almost
2/3rd of the race wizard value. Ouch.
As I sideeffect, I found out that I can forget my idea of the 19% IT;
that race would need not 65, but 68% of RW value to reach the target...
a growth rate of 20% seems to be absolutely necessary; and even then
I seriously doubt that any non-CA can maintain more than 12% over
the whole universe.
Maybe I'll give it a try, I found a funny universe with 6 breeders
around the HW. Or is it cheating if I first check it with a penscanner
race before going to work?
cu,
Schnobs
--
remove "nowhere" and dots for email
Stephen Donald
So Orca isn't interested in beating the new record and Asimov says he has
too much to do to start checking results - so I am offering a new service to
the Stars community.
If you want to claim the new world record, I am happy to verify the final
score as an independent judge. (I'm safe since I am lucky to get 60K myself)
Just e-mail me me the xy, m, and h file for 2450 and I will publish the
results here.
Regards,
Stephen Donald
Grey on #Stars! IRC
"Always get a lazy person to solve a problem.
They think about it and do it in the most economical way."
Varn
Schnobs wrote in message <3834DD...@here.forchheim.baynet.de>...
<snip>
My calculations match yours - it isn't possible to top 156k by 50 unless you
use CA. I've decided to give it a go myself using a CA - currently at 2433
with 16k resources. Not sure how this compares since I don't have Asimov's
game files. Asimov?
>Maybe I'll give it a try, I found a funny universe with 6 breeders
>around the HW. Or is it cheating if I first check it with a penscanner
>race before going to work?
Well it's a bit cheesy if you use an optimal universe to do it - and bear in
mind that if you do beat the record, others are probably going to want to
try it out using your universe (assuming your universe had an unusually good
hab draw).
Regards,
Varn
Asimov
<overw...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:810ver$mnt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <acNY3.353$k4.7...@news1.usit.net>,
> "Asimov" <asi...@oldwarez.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> > my next challenge: 100 standard arm bb's before 2447...
> >
> > i see several ways to approach this, and wondering what people had to
> say
> > about it
>
> Well, I have some older testbed results I can toss out - using races
> designed for games, not just testbedding...
well... that is the point of this, it would by definition be a very playable
race if it can get 100 arm bb's sometime before 50... not just playable, but
plain flat out nasty in a real game :)
> > HE: 12-14% before doubling and one immune along with decent factories
> might just do it... come to think of it, my roaches might be able to do
> this even better than the higher growth..... hm, testbed's testbed's..
> sigh
> >
>
> > -f CA: ca is just so bloody fast, and -f CA is even faster
> >
>
> Have one that did it in 2556. A CA HG design has hit it in 2554. I
> think with some tweaking and what I know know from more recent tests
> and game experience I can definitely improve upon this.
>
> > tt CA: similar race as i used to break the record above, i had +15
> terra in the early 30's, with a few less planets than i had in this
> test, normal bio, cheap wep.... some backfilling earlier, and it might
> be able to beat it also
>
> I suspect that a variant here will be the one to do it, probably
> following something similar to the strategy you theorize above.
>
> >
> > lf WM: having a small amount of factories, early green queues, 3.5
> cheap, 19-20% growth and one immune... well, between the cheap
> warships, loads of early tech... maybe this would be the route to take
>
> I doubt it. You get a jump with the Weapons tech, but the CA TT is
> getting a jump with the terraforming tech and also not paying for the
> terraforming.
agreed, but the thought of all that cheap tech and cheap-to-build ships is
hard to resist :)
> >
> > CA: how about a 20% growth, wide hab, NON-tt with a good bit of cheap
> tech...
> > or to really go out on a limb with another idea... make it 1/1000
> 15/5/14g
> > 12/3/16 or so... but with max min's and cost 5 fac's, i would have to
> test it
> > and see what the optimal mines are
> >
> > well... theres a few ideas, what do you all think?
> >
> Any possibility that a JOAT HG (or HP) might be a contender? The extra
> 20% planet size would allow one to build up economy on fewer planets
> and probably save on terraforming costs. And the pen-scanning will
> help immensly with the preliminary scouting.
although joat's do have that advantage, it seems it would be hard to take full
advantage of it, how many planets could you get maxed out in pop and factories
in time?
pen scanning isnt really an issue, small packed = 194 stars, being a packed
game, usually you can find a route to take where most of your scouts have only
1 year jumps only between planets, 10-12 scouts can easily scout the whole
universe by somewhere between 20 and 25 (well... maybe a staggler or two
getting to the last planets by 30), sure, you can do it a bit sooner as joat,
but is that really necissary?
asimov@starlink
asimov@efnet
Schnobs
> My calculations match yours - it isn't possible to top 156k by 50 unless you
> use CA. I've decided to give it a go myself using a CA - currently at 2433
> with 16k resources. Not sure how this compares since I don't have Asimov's
> game files. Asimov?
Who knows? I just found out that in a real game, i managed to
sqeeze 10.2% out of 17... thats a 60% ratio. Despite a war that was
eating colonists, and required me to flood my breeders to some 600k
while
building warships.
The only possible reason is that I found two breeders immediately.
Maybe that IT idea will work in my universe; 6 planets of 80% or
more close to the HW? You should be able to keep growth VERY high
over the first 20 turns or so.
Asimov
> use CA.
heh, no doubt in my mind :)
> I've decided to give it a go myself using a CA - currently at 2433
> with 16k resources. Not sure how this compares since I don't have Asimov's
> game files. Asimov?
lets see... i had 11k@30, and 36K@40... cant tell you other than that, fraid i
dont remember
> >Maybe I'll give it a try, I found a funny universe with 6 breeders
> >around the HW. Or is it cheating if I first check it with a penscanner
> >race before going to work?
>
>
> Well it's a bit cheesy if you use an optimal universe to do it - and bear in
> mind that if you do beat the record, others are probably going to want to
> try it out using your universe (assuming your universe had an unusually good
> hab draw).
well, i wont say my universe was a "bad" draw... but it wasnt a great one
either, just about normal i would guess