TNT done nonstop?
Never_Again
demos where the player makes it through all 32 levels without dying
once. I know of at least one such demo done on Nightmare.
The question is then, where are the corresponding Final Doom demos? It
would be only logical to expect at least TNT done this way, if not
Plutonia Experiment. And yet I have to find any reference to such a
thing.
In the meantime, I'll confess I've been working secretly on my own TNT
Done Quick Project. I made it through to The Mill (map18), only to
succumb in the exit hall. The resulting demo is probably around 40min.
I shudder to think how long the complete affair will turn out to be,
when and if it's done that is.
The TNT sprawling levels are largely to blame for this; though the
difficulty level is rather high as compared to Doom][, too. As a
method of preparation for this ordeal, I'd been practicing no-monster
runs through Evilution for some days. I was surprised to find it was
no easy matter to just blaze through the empty levels, since the sheer
size of many (especially the later ones, Deepest Reaches <map16> and
on) slows you down considerably. At least it's not as bad as Eternal,
hehe. But even as early as Open Season <map06> you discover that
there's just no way you can make it to the exit under 2:35 - and
that's with no critters to ge in your way! Then consider the utter
mess that ensues when you press that skull under the tall green steps
in Human BBQ <map02> when you don't even have the super shotty yet ...
Well you get the idea.
Funny thing is, someone may have done the whole thing easy and
painless long time ago and I am inventing the bicycle here all over
again, but I did my homework. Important shortcuts can be taken in
Wormhole, Prison, Storage Facility, Pharaoh and Habitat (maps 04, 07,
11, 31 and 22 respectively).
Thus, in Pharaoh all three keeys can be forgone entirely and the
missing yellow keycard bug circumvented - all under one minute. But
the seasoned Doomers around here are no doubt familiar with this
exploit. My own contibution, then, would be strafing from the yellow
keycard ledge back onto the jutting veranda in Human BBQ - I didn't
see it done elsewhere, though admittedly ingenious LPMers will have no
trouble finding this little shortcut on their own.
I profess general long standing affection to TNT - Evilution, however
it looks like my original plans to record a comprehensive nonstop demo
complete with 100% kills and secrets on every level wil have to be
scratched after all ... I'd say such a beast would be at least 2.5
hours long and ... and nobody would want to sit through the whole
thing anyway! Except Led, maybe hehe.
Ah ... back to trying to replicate my 2:41 achievement on Human BBQ -
what a bitch of a map this is, without the double barrel. Gawddammit!!
;P
--
Never_Again
I am is that which ends.
Bjorn Hamels
> I've seen Doom Done Quick. There are several Doom][ Ultra Violence
> demos where the player makes it through all 32 levels without dying
> once. I know of at least one such demo done on Nightmare.
>
> The question is then, where are the corresponding Final Doom demos? It
> would be only logical to expect at least TNT done this way, if not
> Plutonia Experiment. And yet I have to find any reference to such a
> thing.
Hey,
You should have a look the Compet-N site,
http://www.hszk.bme.hu/~ha211/compet-n/
and you'll see there are more then one demos of a 30NM run (32maps w/o
dying on skill 5) and even a 30NMS (same as before + all secrets (very
hard)), there are also skill4 coop demos (i have a 30nm(skill 5) w/
Henning (not uploaded)).
On the tnt thing, have a look at TAS:
http://www.doomworld.com/sda/tas/
or more specific tnt:
http://www.doomworld.com/sda/tas/tnt.htm
There is a TAS 30NM run of TNT by Istavan.
Hope you find some usefull information there,
Cheers,
Bjorn
Opulent
> You should have a look the Compet-N site,
> http://www.hszk.bme.hu/~ha211/compet-n/
> and you'll see there are more then one demos of a 30NM run (32maps w/o
> dying on skill 5) and even a 30NMS (same as before + all secrets (very
> hard)), there are also skill4 coop demos (i have a 30nm(skill 5) w/
> Henning (not uploaded)).
dang it, df! mail me that thing. please! :)
I won't post it, I just want to see it.
Doug
ps. Never_Again: check the recent TNT demos at the Compet-N; lots of new
tricks...
Len Pitre
>The question is then, where are the corresponding Final Doom demos? It
>would be only logical to expect at least TNT done this way, if not
>Plutonia Experiment. And yet I have to find any reference to such a
>thing.
Never seen any.
>In the meantime, I'll confess I've been working secretly on my own TNT
>Done Quick Project. I made it through to The Mill (map18), only to
>succumb in the exit hall. The resulting demo is probably around 40min.
Eeeep!
>I shudder to think how long the complete affair will turn out to be,
>when and if it's done that is.
Impressive as hell, though with long levels I find it can be hard to keep my
attention fixed for the whole demo.
>I profess general long standing affection to TNT - Evilution, however
>it looks like my original plans to record a comprehensive nonstop demo
>complete with 100% kills and secrets on every level wil have to be
>scratched after all ... I'd say such a beast would be at least 2.5
>hours long and ... and nobody would want to sit through the whole
>thing anyway! Except Led, maybe hehe.
:) Well, good luck with your exploits. Even getting through them quick will be
a feat!
Len
--
Pointless SIG file.
http://archonrealm.cjb.net/ | http://archonrealm.tripod.com
Replace "Doom!" with "Hotmail" to send e-mail.
End pointless SIG file.
Never_Again
alt.games.doom and thus spake unto all:
>
>> You should have a look the Compet-N site,
>> http://www.hszk.bme.hu/~ha211/compet-n/
>> and you'll see there are more then one demos of a 30NM run (32maps w/o
>> dying on skill 5) and even a 30NMS (same as before + all secrets (very
>> hard)), there are also skill4 coop demos (i have a 30nm(skill 5) w/
>> Henning (not uploaded)).
>
>dang it, df! mail me that thing. please! :)
>I won't post it, I just want to see it.
Mahn I hate 'me too' posts but here goes
Me too!
;P
>ps. Never_Again: check the recent TNT demos at the Compet-N; lots of new
>tricks...
Affirmative!
Never_Again
alt.games.doom and thus spake unto all:
>You should have a look the Compet-N site,
>http://www.hszk.bme.hu/~ha211/compet-n/
>and you'll see there are more then one demos of a 30NM run (32maps w/o
>dying on skill 5) and even a 30NMS (same as before + all secrets (very
>hard)), there are also skill4 coop demos (i have a 30nm(skill 5) w/
>Henning (not uploaded)).
Ah, but there are no 32 map runs on Compet-N site! Hope I'm looking in
the right place; they would be in Movie section, no?
>On the tnt thing, have a look at TAS:
>http://www.doomworld.com/sda/tas/
>or more specific tnt:
>http://www.doomworld.com/sda/tas/tnt.htm
>There is a TAS 30NM run of TNT by Istavan.
Not quite what I'm looking for, since it's a 'tool assisted demo'
(IOW, cheated through ;).
>Hope you find some usefull information there,
>Cheers,
>Bjorn
Great big thanks for the Compet-N pointer, I had no idea they were
still in business! A great new source of fresh Doom madness - thank
you Bjorn!
Never_Again
alt.games.doom and thus spake unto all:
>Never_Again wrote:
>
>>The question is then, where are the corresponding Final Doom demos? It
>>would be only logical to expect at least TNT done this way, if not
>>Plutonia Experiment. And yet I have to find any reference to such a
>>thing.
>
>Never seen any.
The Compet-N site has nothing on the subject, so I can hope to
eventually amount to something in this well traversed world of LMPs
:).
The only demo that comes close is the one on Tool Assisted Demoes, but
it's well, tool assisted hehe.
>>In the meantime, I'll confess I've been working secretly on my own TNT
>>Done Quick Project. I made it through to The Mill (map18), only to
>>succumb in the exit hall. The resulting demo is probably around 40min.
>
>Eeeep!
Wonder what you would say if I told you it's actually 1:57:40? Eeeew?
>Impressive as hell, though with long levels I find it can be hard to keep my
>attention fixed for the whole demo.
>:) Well, good luck with your exploits. Even getting through them quick will be
>a feat!
Especially true of Evilution maps where things can get quite slow at
time - e.g. when you have to cover the same terrain multiple times,
like on Open Season and Central Processing.
Thank you for the encouragement! Coupled with the newly discovered
madness on the Compet-n site it gives me a little extra boost.
Nightmare with 100% secrets anyone? And I thought *I* knew what
lunatic fringe meant ... %)
Len Pitre
>>>The question is then, where are the corresponding Final Doom demos? It
>>>would be only logical to expect at least TNT done this way, if not
>>>Plutonia Experiment. And yet I have to find any reference to such a
>>>thing.
>>
>>Never seen any.
>
>The Compet-N site has nothing on the subject, so I can hope to
>eventually amount to something in this well traversed world of LMPs
>:).
If you can't make a new thing, make a new use for an old thing.:)
>The only demo that comes close is the one on Tool Assisted Demoes, but
>it's well, tool assisted hehe.
Yeah. Sort of makes it a bit harder to do if you're not being helped....
>>>In the meantime, I'll confess I've been working secretly on my own TNT
>>>Done Quick Project. I made it through to The Mill (map18), only to
>>>succumb in the exit hall. The resulting demo is probably around 40min.
>>
>>Eeeep!
>
>Wonder what you would say if I told you it's actually 1:57:40? Eeeew?
I'd run and hide.:)
>>Impressive as hell, though with long levels I find it can be hard to keep my
>>attention fixed for the whole demo.
>>:) Well, good luck with your exploits. Even getting through them quick will be
>
>>a feat!
>
>Especially true of Evilution maps where things can get quite slow at
>time - e.g. when you have to cover the same terrain multiple times,
>like on Open Season and Central Processing.
One of those times a demo fast-forward would be nice.
>Thank you for the encouragement! Coupled with the newly discovered
>madness on the Compet-n site it gives me a little extra boost.
Uh-oh.:)
>Nightmare with 100% secrets anyone? And I thought *I* knew what
>lunatic fringe meant ... %)
About to descend into (deeper) madness (than normal)?:)
Bjorn Hamels
> On 25 Sep 2001 15:03:20 -0700, Bjorn Hamels came forth to
> alt.games.doom and thus spake unto all:
>
> >You should have a look the Compet-N site,
> >http://www.hszk.bme.hu/~ha211/compet-n/
> >and you'll see there are more then one demos of a 30NM run (32maps w/o
> >dying on skill 5) and even a 30NMS (same as before + all secrets (very
> >hard)), there are also skill4 coop demos (i have a 30nm(skill 5) w/
> >Henning (not uploaded)).
>
> Ah, but there are no 32 map runs on Compet-N site! Hope I'm looking in
> the right place; they would be in Movie section, no?
>
I was refering to "normal" (can't call them normal :) 30NM, not of
tnt, there aren't any (yet, vince was working on one i thought).
cheers,
Bjorn
Never_Again
forth to alt.games.doom and thus spake unto all:
>Never_Again <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:<9ns3rt049glf8o911...@4ax.com>...
>> On 25 Sep 2001 15:03:20 -0700, Bjorn Hamels came forth to
>> alt.games.doom and thus spake unto all:
>>
>> >You should have a look the Compet-N site,
>> >http://www.hszk.bme.hu/~ha211/compet-n/
>> >and you'll see there are more then one demos of a 30NM run (32maps w/o
>> >dying on skill 5) and even a 30NMS (same as before + all secrets (very
>> >hard)), there are also skill4 coop demos (i have a 30nm(skill 5) w/
>> >Henning (not uploaded)).
>>
>> Ah, but there are no 32 map runs on Compet-N site! Hope I'm looking in
>> the right place; they would be in Movie section, no?
>>
>
>I was refering to "normal" (can't call them normal :) 30NM, not of
>tnt, there aren't any (yet, vince was working on one i thought).
Vince is working on it? Damn, there go my 'me first' pipe dreams ...
;P
Adam_H
> >> >dying on skill 5) and even a 30NMS (same as before + all secrets (very
> >> >hard)), there are also skill4 coop demos (i have a 30nm(skill 5) w/
> >> >Henning (not uploaded)).
> >>
> >> Ah, but there are no 32 map runs on Compet-N site! Hope I'm looking in
> >> the right place; they would be in Movie section, no?
There are, download the demos and check the text files yourself.
Basically all DOOM2 movies go through maps 31-32 (because it's easier
that way).
> >I was refering to "normal" (can't call them normal :) 30NM, not of
> >tnt, there aren't any (yet, vince was working on one i thought).
>
> Vince is working on it? Damn, there go my 'me first' pipe dreams ...
I'm not sure on this but I think Vince has done a TNT speedrun movie
in UV skill but he hasn't uploaded it (no I don't have it either).
Adam Hegyi
--
Administrator and maintaner of COMPET-N
http://www.hszk.bme.hu/~ha211/compet-n/
ftp://competn.ath.cx/pub/compet-n/
Member of DOOM2 Done Quick and DOOM Done Quicker
http://www.planetquake.com/qdq/doom.html
Never_Again
to rec.games.computer.doom.playing and thus spake unto all:
>> >> Ah, but there are no 32 map runs on Compet-N site! Hope I'm looking in
>> >> the right place; they would be in Movie section, no?
(Hey, don't snip my quote attributes, or I'll BFG you, k? ;P)
>[...] I'm not sure on this but I think Vince has done a TNT speedrun movie
>in UV skill but he hasn't uploaded it (no I don't have it either).
Ah, I can't wait to see it!
Btw, since this might be a better idea than bombarding your mailbox:
why is it that some TNT demo uploaders use doom2.exe for Doom ] [ to
record with? Not only this exec won't recognize tnt.wad (which has to
be renamed to doom2.wad then), but they also specify
Recorded using Final Doom2 Version 1.9
Doom2 -PlayDemo with (only) Final DooM
in the .txt file.
Case in point: ev04-616.lmp. This UV-max rendition of Wormhole by
Radek Pecka gets consistently out of sync at the point where the
player enters the main area of the East part of the map (the one that
mirrors the starting point area and has an Arch-vile on the west
staircase) for a second time. When the player returns to this area
with a double barrel to take on the Mancubus, he lowers the lift and
the Mancubus starts to blast at him straight away. This is where the
fireballs push him to the right, into the wall and away from the lift
so the demo gets out of sync.
Now using the exec that comes with Doom ] [, the fireballs *don't* hit
you and the demo proceeds as it should. I don't know if the playback
continues normally through to a happy end, 'cause by the time I
figured out I had to rename the TNT doom2.exe, copy the Doom ] [
doom2.exe to that directory and rename tnt.wad to doom2.wad just for
this goddamn demo to work I was a bit too PO'd to watch it through to
the end. But work it does, even though the .txt file clearly states -
for playback with Final Doom only.
And that's not the only such demo on Compet-N that's like that. At
least one Prison (map07) demo suffers from the same crap. Don't people
watch their own demos before uploading?
Adam_H
> why is it that some TNT demo uploaders use doom2.exe for Doom ] [ to
> record with?
That goes back in the days when Final DOOM came out, and it was
believed that Final DOOM's doom2.exe doesn't have the widely-used
autorun tweak (joyb_speed 31). It was only much later in 1999 I
believe when Donatas Tamonis discovered that joyb_speed 29 works for
all DOOM games (Final DOOM too). And since the majority of the
COMPET-N players use autorun, they switched EXE.
2nd reason is that some people have the Final DOOM WADs but not the
EXE (I think you can figure out a reason).
For this reason, lots of demos were recorded with the DOOM2 v1.9 EXE.
By the way, you don't have to rename your wads,
doom2 -file tnt.wad -playdemo ev04-616 would play it perfectly.
Most text files do state this and you only have to type your command
line differently (or if you're an avid demo watcher, set up batch
files).
In any case, if demo playback fails try the other method and it should
work.
Do you think I would let through ANY demo which desyncs?
Never_Again
to use the -file param.
Another question: what about Doom95.exe? Is it accepted for Compet-N
recordings?
Bjorn Hamels
<cut>
> Another question: what about Doom95.exe? Is it accepted for Compet-N
> recordings?
Well,
You can record with it but its not compatible and can't guarantee demo
sync if it doesn't play back with one of the doom2.exe's it will get
rejected at Compet-N.
Cheers,
Bjorn
Colin Phipps
id wrote:
> why is it that some TNT demo uploaders use doom2.exe for Doom ] [ to record
> with?
The Final Doom exe has the broken stupid teleport "feature"/bug; Compet-n leave
people the choice but recommend to avoid it IIRC.
In article <eoidst046tlqbq6u9...@4ax.com>, Never_Again wrote:
> In <j7qx7.8624$0Z6.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Rez came
> forth to rec.games.computer.doom.playing and thus spake unto all:
>
>>[...] The main sync bug has to do with floaters attacking while passing over a
>>change of height between sectors. That's why lost souls and PEs, and less
>>commonly cacos, are usually on your ass at the moment of a drastic desync.
I'm not convinced cacos are anything to do with it; all problems I've hit have
been explained by the bouncing lost souls bug.
>>There is also another that has something to do with
>>damaging floors but I don't have that one pinned down as closely.
>>Maybe something to do with those moments when the player is not in
>>direct contact with said floor? [...]
> In the demo I mentioned, the snc was lost due to the Mancubus' fireballs going
> *through* a corner and hitting the player, which doesn't happen with the Doom
> ] [ exec. Add that to the list ;-).
Not true, that bug is present in all id versions to my knowledge (painfully,
IIRC the first time I ever played MAP07 I got killed by that one). At least,
I'd be interested to be proved wrong.
ev04-616 is odd though, the text file claims it was recorded with Final Doom,
but it only plays back in PrBoom if I force doom2 compatibility mode. Which BTW
means that the desync is almost certainly caused by the lost souls the player
brushes with shortly before.
In <e3807274.01100...@posting.google.com>, Bjorn Hamels wrote:
> > Another question: what about Doom95.exe? Is it accepted for Compet-N
> > recordings?
>
> You can record with it but its not compatible and can't guarantee demo sync if
> it doesn't play back with one of the doom2.exe's it will get rejected at
> Compet-N.
According to the rules it's not accepted. And damn right too, since it comes
with Final Doom's demo incompatibilities and no doubt more.
--
Colin Phipps <cph...@doomworld.com> http://www.cph.demon.co.uk/
Never_Again
to rec.games.computer.doom.playing and thus spake unto all:
>[...] ev04-616 is odd though, the text file claims it was recorded with Final Doom,
>but it only plays back in PrBoom if I force doom2 compatibility mode. [...]
That's my main gripe: why misinform people? You waste half an hour
trying to figure out what's wrong with it. Instead, specifying that
the Doom ] [ exec was used would prevent all the headache.
>In <e3807274.01100...@posting.google.com>, Bjorn Hamels wrote:
>> > Another question: what about Doom95.exe? Is it accepted for Compet-N
>> > recordings?
>>
>> You can record with it but its not compatible and can't guarantee demo sync if
>> it doesn't play back with one of the doom2.exe's it will get rejected at
>> Compet-N.
>
>According to the rules it's not accepted. And damn right too, since it comes
>with Final Doom's demo incompatibilities and no doubt more.
Well, we'll see about that :).
Colin Phipps
wrote:
> In article <slrn9seqmc....@micro.no28.org.uk>, Colin Phipps
> <cph...@doomworld.com> wrote:
>>The Final Doom exe has the broken stupid teleport "feature"/bug; Compet-n
>>leave people the choice but recommend to avoid it IIRC.
>
Wrong I'm afraid. In fact it's pretty clear it must affect demo sync, after all
it very visibly affects the player's Z-coord when teleporting. I used
pl27-051.lmp to debug this for PrBoom, but there are others.
(Hell, I've seen instances where changed z-height of something as minor as a
barrel causes a desync, as in the Plutonia DEMO1 desync with Boom/MBF).
> BTW the bug is in the released source, too (naturally since it was
> FinalDOOM source). I've seen it happen (rarely) in MBF and Fusion.
No, it isn't in the linuxdoom-1.10 source (cf p_telept.c:107). linuxdoom-1.10 is
Ult Doom demo compatible, not Final Doom (notwithstanding my copy of
linuxdoom-1.10 not being pristine original source).
>>I'm not convinced cacos are anything to do with it; all problems I've hit have
>>been explained by the bouncing lost souls bug.
>
> And I've never seen a bouncing LS muck up demo sync, tho I don't doubt
> it could happen.
It's the cause of the vast majority of linuxdoom-1.10 demo desyncs, e.g.
30nm3738.lmp, punishr.lmp (a good one, desyncs within 30 seconds). It often
takes effect when a PE dies, throwing out lost souls which then hit neighbouring
floors.
> Some bugs that are in all versions are more visible in earlier .EXEs,
> this among 'em.
Fortunately I'm not quite mad enough to tackle demo compat with earlier EXEs :-)
> And LIS, the desync trigger can happen quite some while before the player
> starts shooting at the walls!!
Tell me about it; I've wasted too many evening trawling through gigs (literally)
of diagnostic output finding where the real desync occurs. hr06-uv.lmp in MBF is
a good example; the desync occurs before the player leaves the start area, but
isn't noticably until the player returns to the start area and everthing is in
the wrong places...
http://prboom.sourceforge.net/mbf-bugs.html has a separate section for demo sync
bugs these days.
> Additionally I think there is a fundamental logic error in how basic damage is
> applied -- I once took damage BEFORE a caco's fireball hit me!! I have noticed
> that damage is calc'd before player motion.
That's just a visual effect I suspect; the damage is taken before the screen
is redrawn, but the palette change may happen at the time the damage is
calculated.
> And somewhere I've got screenshots that show a plasma stream going THROUGH a
> Baron BEFORE he dies. On closer observation, I discovered that this is the
> norm!!
Yes, the monster is flagged as dead/passable before the death animation is
complete. Which is why using monsters for cover can often backfire...
Led
>> [...]
>> The Final Doom exe has the broken
>> stupid teleport "feature"/bug; Compet-n
>> leave people the choice but recommend
>> to avoid it IIRC.
>
> Per my own experiments, this bug does
> NOT affect demo sync.
As others have now said, I've also seen it cause desyncs... I've got demos on
my own site that play back okay under store-shelf Doom 2, Doom 95 and Boom, but
start going out of sync in Final Doom shortly after teleporting. :/