Morphy? Why not Fischer?
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
the strongest chess players, then
Fischer would be the strongest candidate.
Wlod
Taylor Kingston
Then again, one may have considerable interest in chess history, yet
no interest in this very private matter.
And frankly, chess doesn't seem to offer much in the way of
uncontrolled and/or oddly channeled libidos. Offhand, I can't think of
a single GM-level chessplayer, past or present, gay or straight, whose
sex life was especially famous, infamous, or even mildly noteworthy.
No serial rapists, no orgiasts, no flaming queens, no polygamists, no
satyrs or nymphomaniacs, no B&D/S&M fetishists, etc. Anthony
Santasiere was gay, but led a domestic life as tame as Ozzie and
Harriet. We've had the occasional pedophile here and there, but only
among lower-tier masters, not elite GMs, as far as I recall.
There's just no /cachet/ to GM sex lives. Unlike, say, the
philanderings of politicians, the promiscuity of Hollywood stars, the
exhibitionism of rock stars, or abuses by the clergy, chess-sex offers
little in the way of glamor or scandal. We have no one like, say, Bill
Clinton, Errol Flynn, Freddie Mercury, or Tony Alamo. One reason may
be that the discipline the game requires either (A) keeps occupied
those who otherwise might indulge in excesses or eccentricities, or
(B) keeps away those who prefer indulging them.
Just a few offhand thoughts. If I've failed to recall some GM-class
player whose sex life was remarkable, feel free to point him out.
The Historian
Taylor Kingston
Capa's natural talent was so great that he could play world-class
chess without lots of study and self-discipline unlike, say, Alekhine.
As I understand it, he was quite the Latino playboy, but still, as far
as I've read, he was never excessive or deviant.
None
>
> - Show quoted text -
Norman Tweed...Sam Sloan
ChessFire
Or (c) just like pedophiles in the boys scout movement, it goes
unmentioned as unremarkable. Gays are acceptable as scout masters,
but pedophiles not.
> Just a few offhand thoughts. If I've failed to recall some GM-class
> player whose sex life was remarkable, feel free to point him out.
How would we actually know of chess players sexual habits contrasted
with those above. Few famous people to the general public are chess
players - Fischer was famous for a brief season - and had no declared
girlfriends even at age 30 like Morphy also had not, but Fischer was
undeclared at that time, no? As the most famous chess player in the
world, Fischer's sex drive is unexamined, nevermind any mere 26xxGM -
so what should we be aware of in this respect?
If you don't do anything about your sexual drives doesn't mean you
don't have any, say psychologists.
To compare chess players with media stars is the issue raised here -
and for example, what do you know about table-tennis players? Are they
more or less gay than the national average in the USA, and who
actually cares?
Phil Innes
Taylor Kingston
In the three cases I recall, the recent Robert Snyder and Severin
Wamala cases, and that of Bob Sutter in the late 1980s in St. Louis,
it was neither unmentioned nor unpunished. However, these are really
outside the present discussion, since none of them were GM-class
players.
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
wrote:
> On Nov 14, 1:19 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> <sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If one is seeking closet gays among
> > the strongest chess players, then
> > Fischer would be the strongest candidate.
>
> > Wlod
>
> Then again, one may have considerable interest
> in chess history, yet no interest in this very
> private matter.
I've mentioned Fischer only due to the
considerable rgcm's interest in the very
private matters of Morphy's life.
> And frankly, chess doesn't seem to offer much in the way of
> uncontrolled and/or oddly channeled libidos. Offhand, I can't think of
> a single GM-level chessplayer, past or present, gay or straight, whose
> sex life was especially famous, infamous, or even mildly noteworthy.
"Historian" has already mentioned that Capa
was considered something of a "Casanova"
(something of a poor man's don Juan).
> No serial rapists, no orgiasts,
> no flaming queens, no polygamists, [...]
Alekhine.
**********************************
Regards,
Wlod
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
>
> [...] what do you know about table-tennis players?
> Are they more or less gay than the national average
> in the USA, and who actually cares?
>
> Phil Innes
Why are you, Phil, so intensively interested
in who cares about table-tennis players being
more or less gay than the national average
in the USA? (You are in this respect much more
American oriented than Sam).
Regards,
Wlod
Taylor Kingston
<sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 14, 6:14 am, Taylor Kingston <taylor.kings...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 14, 1:19 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> > <sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > If one is seeking closet gays among
> > > the strongest chess players, then
> > > Fischer would be the strongest candidate.
>
> > > Wlod
>
> > Then again, one may have considerable interest
> > in chess history, yet no interest in this very
> > private matter.
>
> I've mentioned Fischer only due to the
> considerable rgcm's interest in the very
> private matters of Morphy's life.
That was not a general rcgm interest.
> > And frankly, chess doesn't seem to offer much in the way of
> > uncontrolled and/or oddly channeled libidos. Offhand, I can't think of
> > a single GM-level chessplayer, past or present, gay or straight, whose
> > sex life was especially famous, infamous, or even mildly noteworthy.
>
> "Historian" has already mentioned that Capa
> was considered something of a "Casanova"
> (something of a poor man's don Juan).
A description that would fit millions of men. Back in the early
1970s I had a housemate about age 30 who claimed he had slept with 500
women. Based on the score he ran up while I knew him, and
extrapolating back to his puberty, that was about right. Probably Capa
was more selective, circumspect and discreet.
> > No serial rapists, no orgiasts,
> > no flaming queens, no polygamists, [...]
>
> Alekhine.
I don't think AAA fits any of those descriptions. His
"abnormality" (if one can call it that) was a preference for women
older than himself. As I recall he had four wives, but no two at the
same time.
jeremy.p...@vanderbilt.edu
wrote:
In general, I would imagine that the small number of world-class GMs
makes it unlikely that any of them would have remarkable sex lives. My
own argument is perhaps undercut by the fact that the brother of 1
world-class GM did have a sex life which made him front-page fodder
for tabloids of the time; Riviere's brother Henri.
A strong 19th-century player named Pindar might count on as a sex-
scandal, but he was not a world-class GM
Jerry Spinrad
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
wrote:
According to "The Kings of Chess" (1985) by William Roland
Hartston Alekhine had the habit of marrying his next
woman without divorcing the previous one, or it had happened
on at least one occasion, which made him a bigamist
(possibly he was even a polygamist). However, he didn't live
with more than one woman at the time (possibly with none :-).
He would move to another and add another wife, while the
previous one would stay in the old country. Something like
this.
Regards,
Wlod
Taylor Kingston
<sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 14, 3:09 pm, Taylor Kingston <taylor.kings...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 14, 5:54 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
> > <sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Nov 14, 6:14 am, Taylor Kingston <taylor.kings...@comcast.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > No serial rapists, no orgiasts,
> > > > no flaming queens, no polygamists, [...]
>
> > > Alekhine.
>
> > I don't think AAA fits any of those descriptions. His
> > "abnormality" (if one can call it that) was a preference
> > for women older than himself. As I recall he had four
> > wives, but no two at the same time.
>
> According to "The Kings of Chess" (1985) by William Roland
> Hartston Alekhine had the habit of marrying his next
> woman without divorcing the previous one, or it had happened
> on at least one occasion, which made him a bigamist
> (possibly he was even a polygamist). However, he didn't live
> with more than one woman at the time (possibly with none :-).
> He would move to another and add another wife, while the
> previous one would stay in the old country. Something like
> this.
Here is what Hartston says on the subject of Alekhine's marriages,
on pages 113-114 of "The Kings of Chess":
"At Comintern in 1921, he met and married a Swiss delegate,
Anneliese Rüegg. Strange, because in 1920 he had married another lady,
a Russian baroness by whom he had had a daughter in 1913. Perhaps the
earlier liaison had slipped from his memory.
"The marriage to his Swiss wife was enough to guarantee Alekhine
permission to travel across the Soviet borders. In 1921 he abandoned
his wife, and became an itinerant chess professional ...
"Just as his doctorate may not have been formalized, neither,
apparently, was Alekhine's third wife. She was Nadyezhda Vasiliev, a
woman much older than himself, the widow of a White Russian
General ... they were to live together for the next few years ...
"Mrs. Alekhine number four [was] an American-born lady, Grace
Wishart, widow of an English tea-planter. He celebrated the change of
spouse by beating Bogolyubov again [in 1934]."
So yes, it appears that AAA committed bigamy in 1921. However, this
clearly was merely a matter of expediency, so he could leave the USSR,
rather than a sexual matter. And technically he may have been a
polygamist, if wives #1 and #2 were still alive when he married #4.
But again, this is not the kind of thing I had in mind when said chess
had no polygamists. I had in mind someone keeping a number of women
under one roof, all of them being his sex partners.
I'll want to check Hartston against some other sources; he is not
always accurate.
Taylor Kingston
>
> Fischer was famous for a brief season - and had no declared
Not true. By the end of the 1972 Spassky match, Fischer was involved
with one or two Icelandic girls. There's a photo of one on page 97 of
"Fischer World Champion" by Euwe and Timman (NiC, 2002). Fischer was
29 at that time.
> like Morphy also had not, but Fischer was
> undeclared at that time, no?
Our Phil never sees ignorance as a reason to remain silent.
> As the most famous chess player in the
> world, Fischer's sex drive is unexamined,
Fischer's sex drive was most definitely examined by 1972, and it was
heterosexual. On pages 389-392, Plisetsky & Voronkov's "Russians
versus Fischer" (2nd edition, 2005) reproduces a report by Georgy
Sannikov, a KGB colonel who was involved in covert matters relating to
the WCh match. This from page 391 is relevant to the current topic:
"Doctors and psychologists assert that after a stressful situation
men have definite need of relaxation — a woman. Here too Fischer's
supporters and sponsors 'outflanked' us. Knowing the tastes of the
bachelor Fischer, they hired an expensive prostitute, conveyed her
from the USA (in Iceland there is neither pornography, nor
prostitution) to the American military base and kept the attractive,
shapely blonde under special supervision, in order in case of
necessity to take her to Fischer."
> so what should we be aware of in this respect?
That Phil Innes habitually pontificates on matters he knows nothing
about.
ChessFire
wrote:
> On Nov 14, 4:37 pm, ChessFire <onech...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Fischer was famous for a brief season - and had no declared
> > girlfriends even at age 30 ...
>
> Not true. By the end of the 1972 Spassky match, Fischer was involved
> with one or two Icelandic girls. There's a photo of one on page 97 of
> "Fischer World Champion" by Euwe and Timman (NiC, 2002). Fischer was
> 29 at that time.
Photographed with women! Well, that's a start.
> > like Morphy also had not, but Fischer was
> > undeclared at that time, no?
>
> Our Phil never sees ignorance as a reason to remain silent.
But our Taylor sees a photo which completely satisfies his curiosity.
> > As the most famous chess player in the
> > world, Fischer's sex drive is unexamined,
>
> Fischer's sex drive was most definitely examined by 1972, and it was
> heterosexual. On pages 389-392, Plisetsky & Voronkov's "Russians
> versus Fischer" (2nd edition, 2005) reproduces a report by Georgy
> Sannikov, a KGB colonel who was involved in covert matters relating to
> the WCh match. This from page 391 is relevant to the current topic:
>
> "Doctors and psychologists assert that after a stressful situation
> men have definite need of relaxation — a woman. Here too Fischer's
> supporters and sponsors 'outflanked' us. Knowing the tastes of the
> bachelor Fischer, they hired an expensive prostitute, conveyed her
> from the USA (in Iceland there is neither pornography, nor
> prostitution) to the American military base and kept the attractive,
> shapely blonde under special supervision, in order in case of
> necessity to take her to Fischer."
Well, if the KGB say so, it must be true.
> > so what should we be aware of in this respect?
>
> That Phil Innes habitually pontificates on matters he knows nothing
> about.
I wouldn't say that a photo or a KGB report is anything to write home,
or write here about. But for Heaven's sake, Kingston - dating at 28 or
30 years old is later than usual, isn't it? Surely that is the point I
made - please don't become hysterical about yet another issue and
start in with your name calling. Maybe that's why you are always
right? Viz - other people are always wrong? Or they no longer actually
discuss anything with you since at the first hitch to your certainties
you throw the usual hissy fit.
The telling part about your postings is that you are forever incapable
of discussing behavior or any process - preferring your own
certainties, and proceed directly to defame others at a personality
level.
That is not a very deep psychological observation, merely a constant
one.
Phil Innes
The Historian
But for Heaven's sake, Kingston - dating at 28 or
> 30 years old is later than usual, isn't it?
Are you suggesting that single men of "28 or 30" shouldn't date?
The Historian
Innes was the model for the questioning fellow in the "wink as good as
a nod to a blind bat" Monty Python sketch.
Taylor Kingston
> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 14, 4:37 pm, ChessFire <onech...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > Fischer was famous for a brief season - and had no declared
> > > girlfriends even at age 30 ...
>
> > Not true. By the end of the 1972 Spassky match, Fischer was involved
> > with one or two Icelandic girls. There's a photo of one on page 97 of
> > "Fischer World Champion" by Euwe and Timman (NiC, 2002). Fischer was
> > 29 at that time.
>
> Photographed with women! Well, that's a start.
>
> > > like Morphy also had not, but Fischer was
> > > undeclared at that time, no?
>
> > Our Phil never sees ignorance as a reason to remain silent.
>
> But our Taylor sees a photo which completely satisfies his curiosity.
The two ladies are also discussed, and named, on pages 283-284 of
"Bobby Fischer Goes to War" (2004). They were Anna Thorsteinsdottir,
age 18, and her friend Inga, 17. Their meetings with Fischer were
arranged by his bodyguard Saemi Palsson.
> > > As the most famous chess player in the
> > > world, Fischer's sex drive is unexamined,
>
> > Fischer's sex drive was most definitely examined by 1972, and it was
> > heterosexual. On pages 389-392, Plisetsky & Voronkov's "Russians
> > versus Fischer" (2nd edition, 2005) reproduces a report by Georgy
> > Sannikov, a KGB colonel who was involved in covert matters relating to
> > the WCh match. This from page 391 is relevant to the current topic:
>
> > "Doctors and psychologists assert that after a stressful situation
> > men have definite need of relaxation — a woman. Here too Fischer's
> > supporters and sponsors 'outflanked' us. Knowing the tastes of the
> > bachelor Fischer, they hired an expensive prostitute, conveyed her
> > from the USA (in Iceland there is neither pornography, nor
> > prostitution) to the American military base and kept the attractive,
> > shapely blonde under special supervision, in order in case of
> > necessity to take her to Fischer."
>
> Well, if the KGB say so, it must be true.
>
> > > so what should we be aware of in this respect?
>
> > That Phil Innes habitually pontificates on matters he knows nothing
> > about.
>
> I wouldn't say that a photo or a KGB report is anything to write home,
> or write here about.
It's certainly more than you offer, Phil. All you do is assert,
completely without evidence. Then when anyone else actually presents
some relevant evidence contradicting your assertions, you merely
dismiss it out of hand, but still fail to present any evidence of your
own.
I've cited three sources, while you've cited none. So far the score
is 3-0 in my favor. As long as you fail to present evidence, your
score will remain at zero.
> But for Heaven's sake, Kingston - dating at 28 or
> 30 years old is later than usual, isn't it?
Of course it is. But Fischer was "married" to chess through 1972,
which left him little time for women.
> Surely that is the point I
> made -
As usual when you're caught out, you try to re-spin your own words.
No, Phil, I'm addressing two points you very clearly made, that (A)
"Fischer was [sexually] undeclared at that time," (i.e. 1972) and (B)
that "Fischer's sex drive is unexamined." I have presented testimony
that Fischer was then avowedly heterosexual, and that his sex life /
had/ been examined.
> please don't become hysterical about yet another issue and
> start in with your name calling.
No name-calling, Phil. Merely calling another of your many bluffs.
Taylor Kingston
wrote:
> On Nov 15, 10:07 am, ChessFire <onech...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 15, 9:47 am, Taylor Kingston <taylor.kings...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 14, 4:37 pm, ChessFire <onech...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > Fischer was famous for a brief season - and had no declared
> > > > girlfriends even at age 30 ...
>
> > > Not true. By the end of the 1972 Spassky match, Fischer was involved
> > > with one or two Icelandic girls. There's a photo of one on page 97 of
> > > "Fischer World Champion" by Euwe and Timman (NiC, 2002). Fischer was
> > > 29 at that time.
>
> > Photographed with women! Well, that's a start.
>
> > > > like Morphy also had not, but Fischer was
> > > > undeclared at that time, no?
>
> > > Our Phil never sees ignorance as a reason to remain silent.
>
> > But our Taylor sees a photo which completely satisfies his curiosity.
>
> The two ladies are also discussed, and named, on pages 283-284 of
> "Bobby Fischer Goes to War" (2004). They were Anna Thorsteinsdottir,
> age 18, and her friend Inga, 17. Their meetings with Fischer were
> arranged by his bodyguard Saemi Palsson.
I should also add that the girls are mentioned in Brad Darrach's
"Bobby Fischer vs. the Rest of the World":
"Palsson brought Bobby's two seventeen-year-old girl friends to his
table. Wile thousands gaped and the cameras rolled, Bobby showed them
his trophies. Then at the first slow number, Bobby steered the tall
blonde to the dance floor." (p. 231)
Page 232 relates that Fischer stayed in Iceland for two weeks after
the match, among other things "having dinner with Anna and Inga." So
we have considerably more than a photo to indicate that Fischer was
interested in the opposite sex.
4-0.
> No name-calling, Phil. Merely calling another of your many bluffs.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
>
> Few famous people to the general public are chess
> players - Fischer was famous for a brief season
> - and had no declared girlfriends even at age 30
> like Morphy also had not, but Fischer was
> undeclared at that time, no? As the most famous chess player in the
Phil, there was always certain interest in Fischer's
erotic life. Perhaps not a great interest but only
because there was nothing much to be excited about.
Regards,
Wlod
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
wrote:
>
> Here is what Hartston says on the subject of Alekhine's marriages,
> on pages 113-114 of "The Kings of Chess":
>
> "At Comintern in 1921, he met and married a Swiss delegate,
> Anneliese Rüegg. Strange, because in 1920 he had married another lady,
> a Russian baroness by whom he had had a daughter in 1913. Perhaps the
> earlier liaison had slipped from his memory.
> "The marriage to his Swiss wife was enough to guarantee Alekhine
> permission to travel across the Soviet borders. In 1921 he abandoned
> his wife, and became an itinerant chess professional ...
> "Just as his doctorate may not have been formalized, neither,
> apparently, was Alekhine's third wife. She was Nadyezhda Vasiliev, a
> woman much older than himself, the widow of a White Russian
> General ... they were to live together for the next few years ...
> "Mrs. Alekhine number four [was] an American-born lady, Grace
> Wishart, widow of an English tea-planter. He celebrated the change of
> spouse by beating Bogolyubov again [in 1934]."
Thank you, Taylor. Unfortunately, I've lost my copy of
this very attractive Hartston Book. I lived in Ypsy',
in a basement level apt during 1996-9. There was only
one more apt at this level at my staircase,
occupied by an ad producer. He wanted to make an
advertizing mini-movie which would feature an interesting
chess position from a famous game. So I lent him my
"The Kings..." by W.Hartston. A few month later he moved out,
and so did my copy. I have lost a lot of valuable books
due to my moving from one place (or country) to another.
But on this occasion I lost a book due to moving alright,
but not my moving.
And still, the few excellent chess books which I do have
at this time is more than enough for initiating a lot of
interesting chess threads. I even have tried a series
of "item nn" threads but that jerk "offramp" had to be
obnoxious, and has torpedoed (sabotaged) the idea.
> So yes, it appears that AAA committed bigamy in 1921. However, this
> clearly was merely a matter of expediency, so he could leave the USSR,
> rather than a sexual matter. And technically he may have been a
> polygamist, if wives #1 and #2 were still alive when he married #4.
> But again, this is not the kind of thing I had in mind when said chess
> had no polygamists. I had in mind someone keeping a number of women
> under one roof, all of them being his sex partners.
You are right of course. On the other hand this thread is half for
fun,
half for sharing trivia. For these purposes the info about AAA is good
enough.
Let me add that a number of GMs like to stress that they
are/were actively pursuing & "getting" women ("girls").
Some even mention prostitutes. Pillsbury, according to the
modern view, had died from STD--syphilis perhaps, contracted
from a Russian source, they say, but really? I'd think
that could get it from more than one source and location,
possibly spreading it further around the world. Well, ok,
I don't know. Let me just mention, to be specific about GMs
in general, that GM Radoslaw Wojtaszek had been fond of his
sexual readiness for adventures.
> I'll want to check Hartston against some other sources;
> he is not always accurate.
Please, share your findings.
Thank you Taylor once more, regards,
Wlod
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
<sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [...] GM Radoslaw Wojtaszek had been fond of his
> sexual readiness for adventures.
(No, no, No!!!! Not Wojtaszek!)
I meant Aleksander Wojtkiewicz!!!
Wlod
Mike Murray
<taylor....@comcast.net> wrote:
> I should also add that the girls are mentioned in Brad Darrach's
>"Bobby Fischer vs. the Rest of the World":
For someone with pretensions to historical expertise, Phil shows a
remarkable unfamiliarity with major works of chess autobiography.
Benko's book contains anecdotes reflecting a teen-age Fischer's South
American hetero preferences.
Taylor Kingston
A corollary of Murphy's Law states that "No books are ever lost by
borrowing except those that you particularly wish to keep."
> > So yes, it appears that AAA committed bigamy in 1921. However, this
> > clearly was merely a matter of expediency, so he could leave the USSR,
> > rather than a sexual matter. And technically he may have been a
> > polygamist, if wives #1 and #2 were still alive when he married #4.
> > But again, this is not the kind of thing I had in mind when said chess
> > had no polygamists. I had in mind someone keeping a number of women
> > under one roof, all of them being his sex partners.
>
> You are right of course. On the other hand this thread is half for
> fun,
> half for sharing trivia. For these purposes the info about AAA is good
> enough.
Yes, Alekhine has probably generated as much trivia (both true and
false) as any chess great.
> Let me add that a number of GMs like to stress that they
> are/were actively pursuing & "getting" women ("girls").
Yes, for example Tal was famous for his girl-chasing. Once it got
him cold-cocked in Havana.
> Some even mention prostitutes. Pillsbury, according to the
> modern view, had died from STD--syphilis perhaps, contracted
> from a Russian source, they say, but really? I'd think
> that could get it from more than one source and location,
> possibly spreading it further around the world.
As I understand it, Pillsbury got it in St. Petersburg, during the
big 1895-96 tournament with Lasker, Steinitz and Chigorin, probably
from a brothel Chigorin took him to. I suspect he became aware of it
about half-way through. The tournament was 18 rounds, each player
having 6 games with each of the others. If the round-by-round stats on
my CB database are correct, in his first 9 games Pillsbury scored +5
-1 =3. In his last 9 he scored a miserable +0 -6 =3. I strongly
suspect the shock of realizing he had contracted a then incurable
disease affected him adversely.
The Historian
wrote:
Pillsbury would not likely have known he contracted syphilis until
after the tournament. Symptoms don't show up immediately; the CDC
gives as average 21 days before the chancres show up, with sometimes
as long as three months. It's more likely Pillsbury either caught the
flu, as Chigorin had, or picked up his STD before St. Petersburg and
was showing stage 2 by then.
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
wrote:
>
>
> A corollary of Murphy's Law states that
>
> "No books are ever lost by borrowing except
> those that you particularly wish to keep."
Wlod's law:
===========
No books are ever lost by borrowing,
only by lending.
============================================
=
Regards,
== Wlod
Taylor Kingston
> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:13:51 -0800 (PST), Taylor Kingston
>
> > I should also add that the girls are mentioned in Brad Darrach's
> >"Bobby Fischer vs. the Rest of the World":
>
> For someone with pretensions to historical expertise, Phil shows a
> remarkable unfamiliarity with major works of chess autobiography.
>
> Benko's book contains anecdotes reflecting a teen-age Fischer's South
> American hetero preferences.
You're right, Mike. I should have mentioned this sooner. The 17-year-
old Fischer "lost his cherry" in Buenos Aires in 1960, sampling the
pleasures of the Argentine capital's night life and demimonde under
the tutelage of Larry Evans. He overindulged so much he had the worst
result of his career, scoring +3 -5 =11 to place only =13th-16th of
20.
Benko is not the only one to write about this. In a 12/31/1976
article for Hollands Diep, Dutch GM Jan Hein Donner wrote:
"One of [Fischer's] rivals in that tournament was the American
grandmaster Larry Evans, and the story goes that he found a Bovaryan
lady prepared for a small sum to surround Fischer with her charms.
This approach proved a success for Evans, as Fischer finished
thirteenth in the tournament — the only real debacle he ever
suffered." (as reprinted in "The King", NiC 1997, translation by
Richard de Weger, p. 239)
A funny thing about this: Innes already knew of it. I told him about
Fischer at Buenos Aires 1960 while we lunched together at a Vermont
tournament some years ago. That he would now pontificate about Fischer
being still sexually "undeclared" at age 30 shows that Phil is
unfamiliar not only with chess biographies, but with his own memory as
well.
Mike Murray
<taylor....@comcast.net> wrote:
> A funny thing about this: Innes already knew of it. I told him about
>Fischer at Buenos Aires 1960 while we lunched together at a Vermont
>tournament some years ago. That he would now pontificate about Fischer
>being still sexually "undeclared" at age 30 shows that Phil is
>unfamiliar not only with chess biographies, but with his own memory as
>well.
That's the advantage of having one year's experience sixty-odd times.
Each year is a fresh, new, beginning.
Taylor Kingston
The tournament lasted about 3 weeks, 13 December 1895 thru 2 January
1896. That indicates that if syphilis was the cause of his second-half
collapse at St. Pete, his symptoms showed early, or he contracted the
disease before the tournament started.
> It's more likely Pillsbury either caught the
> flu, as Chigorin had,
Yes, his collapse may have been unrelated to syphilis. If both he
and Chigorin had the flu, that could explain their sub-par
performances. At Hastings, just a few months earlier, Pillsbury had
finished 1st and Chigorin 2nd, ahead of Lasker (3rd) and Steinitz
(5th). Yet at St. Petersburg they brought up the rear, with Lasker at
11½-6½, Steinits 9½-8½, Pillsbury 8-10 and Chigorin 7-11.
> or picked up his STD before St. Petersburg and
> was showing stage 2 by then.
The one Pillsbury bio I have, Sergeant & Watts' "Pillsbury's Chess
Career" (1922) clearly says he got nailed in StP: "He was, however,
very unfortunate in contracting an illness there which seriously
impaired his health, and ultimately proved fatal to him."
BTW, concerning Alekhine's marriages, I haven't found anything
beyond what Hartston wrote. I had thought that Skinner & Verhoeven's
massive AAA collection would have more, but as far as I can find
(unfortunately it lacks a general index) it mentions only his second
marriage, and that very briefly. Nothing about bigamy/polygamy.
The Historian
wrote:
> On Nov 15, 9:48 pm, The Historian <neil.thehistor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 15, 7:18 pm, Taylor Kingston <taylor.kings...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 15, 6:12 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> > > <sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Some even mention prostitutes. Pillsbury, according to the
> > > > modern view, had died from STD--syphilis perhaps, contracted
> > > > from a Russian source, they say, but really? I'd think
> > > > that could get it from more than one source and location,
> > > > possibly spreading it further around the world.
>
> > > As I understand it, Pillsbury got it in St. Petersburg, during the
> > > big 1895-96 tournament with Lasker, Steinitz and Chigorin, probably
> > > from a brothel Chigorin took him to. I suspect he became aware of it
> > > about half-way through. The tournament was 18 rounds, each player
> > > having 6 games with each of the others. If the round-by-round stats on
> > > my CB database are correct, in his first 9 games Pillsbury scored +5
> > > -1 =3. In his last 9 he scored a miserable +0 -6 =3. I strongly
> > > suspect the shock of realizing he had contracted a then incurable
> > > disease affected him adversely.
>
> > Pillsbury would not likely have known he contracted syphilis until
> > after the tournament. Symptoms don't show up immediately; the CDC
> > gives as average 21 days before the chancres show up, with sometimes
> > as long as three months.
>
> The tournament lasted about 3 weeks, 13 December 1895 thru 2 January
> 1896. That indicates that if syphilis was the cause of his second-half
> collapse at St. Pete, his symptoms showed early, or he contracted the
> disease before the tournament started.
Or Edge was blackmailing him, as Phil will no doubt suggest?
> > It's more likely Pillsbury either caught the
> > flu, as Chigorin had,
>
> Yes, his collapse may have been unrelated to syphilis. If both he
> and Chigorin had the flu, that could explain their sub-par
> performances. At Hastings, just a few months earlier, Pillsbury had
> finished 1st and Chigorin 2nd, ahead of Lasker (3rd) and Steinitz
> (5th). Yet at St. Petersburg they brought up the rear, with Lasker at
> 11½-6½, Steinits 9½-8½, Pillsbury 8-10 and Chigorin 7-11.
>
> > or picked up his STD before St. Petersburg and
> > was showing stage 2 by then.
>
> The one Pillsbury bio I have, Sergeant & Watts' "Pillsbury's Chess
> Career" (1922) clearly says he got nailed in StP: "He was, however,
> very unfortunate in contracting an illness there which seriously
> impaired his health, and ultimately proved fatal to him."
Pope's biography from the mid 1990s favors the flu as an explanation.
That and a sour business deal over marketing the game scores to the
press. However, it's pretty clear that Pillsbury was in the second
stage of the disease by the next tournament. Blackburne's description
of Pillsbury in the BCM makes the American master sound more dead than
alive.
Taylor Kingston
wrote:
>
> Pope's biography from the mid 1990s favors the flu as an explanation.
> That and a sour business deal over marketing the game scores to the
> press. However, it's pretty clear that Pillsbury was in the second
> stage of the disease by the next tournament. Blackburne's description
> of Pillsbury in the BCM makes the American master sound more dead than
> alive.
Thanks for that info, Neil. I must get Pope's book some day; It
sounds much more detailed than Sergeant & Watts.
ChessFire
Quite so - he was after all photographed in a restaurant and even
danced with 'a girl'.
But in making a comparison with Fischer and Morphy, I indicated that
Fischer came to the game rather late - and as we see above, to at
least braving the idea of being seen in public with them.
Someone writing here once put about the rumor later Larry Evans bought
Fischer a whore to put him off his game.
Anyway, I expect people will continue to free-relate on this subject
[we already had the KGB, though no one has yet mentioned Einstein.
Phil
The Historian
wrote:
It is, but it's still a mere rehearsal for a proper, full-length
biography. Pope gets so much right that the reader wishes the
biographical section of this games collection was 300 pages instead of
30 some.
ChessFire
<sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If one is seeking closet gays among
> the strongest chess players, then
> Fischer would be the strongest candidate.
>
> Wlod
And probably true early in his life. Psychologists sniff at the idea
of being asexual, and don't like conditions which can come about -
often a form of high functioning autism, plus a little anger.
When I was investigating the match just a few years ago I usually
spoke with Saemi P - who was sometimes in the apartment with Fischer
and his wife, and I could here them together going on about plain
domestic stuff like a regular old couple.
Pity he couldn't have achieved that 25 years before - found a good
woman, etc.
Anyway - that's enough secrets for now.
Cordially, Phil
Taylor Kingston
> On Nov 14, 1:19 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> <sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If one is seeking closet gays among
> > the strongest chess players, then
> > Fischer would be the strongest candidate.
>
> > Wlod
>
> And probably true early in his life.
Amazing that Phil is still clinging to this notion after the facts
and testimony we've presented here about Fischer's obvious
heterosexuality, both in his teens and later.
In any event, developmental psychologists know that what might be
called a homosexual phase ("Girls have cooties!") is quite normal for
boys around the time of adolescence. However, this is hardly the same
thing as being a "closet gay."
> Psychologists sniff at the idea
> of being asexual,
They also sniff at holding fast to beliefs that are clearly
contradicted by factual evidence.
The Historian
wrote:
> On Nov 17, 9:14 am, ChessFire <onech...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 14, 1:19 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> > <sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > If one is seeking closet gays among
> > > the strongest chess players, then
> > > Fischer would be the strongest candidate.
>
> > > Wlod
>
> > And probably true early in his life.
>
> Amazing that Phil is still clinging to this notion after the facts
> and testimony we've presented here about Fischer's obvious
> heterosexuality, both in his teens and later.
Speaking of which, this is probably a Fischer myth, but wasn't there a
rumor of Bobby having a crush on a young woman in his high school?
Someone named Streisand? I read this in The More Than Complete Chess
Addict, and while it's a dubious source, it's probably less so than
anything Innes pulls from his.... you know.
Taylor Kingston
wrote:
> On Nov 17, 9:38 am, Taylor Kingston <taylor.kings...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 9:14 am, ChessFire <onech...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 14, 1:19 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> > > <sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > If one is seeking closet gays among
> > > > the strongest chess players, then
> > > > Fischer would be the strongest candidate.
>
> > > > Wlod
>
> > > And probably true early in his life.
>
> > Amazing that Phil is still clinging to this notion after the facts
> > and testimony we've presented here about Fischer's obvious
> > heterosexuality, both in his teens and later.
>
> Speaking of which, this is probably a Fischer myth, but wasn't there a
> rumor of Bobby having a crush on a young woman in his high school?
> Someone named Streisand? I read this in The More Than Complete Chess
> Addict, and while it's a dubious source, it's probably less so than
> anything Innes pulls from his.... you know.
Nah, it was the other way around. Page 263 of "The Even More
Complete Chess Addict" says "it is reported Barbra had a crush on the
future champion," but it was "a romance that never blossomed." Phil
will probably take this as conclusive proof that Fischer was a flaming
queen.
The Historian
parrt...@cs.com
Apparently Barbra Streisand also attended Erasmus Hall in Brooklyn and
had a crush on Bobby. "I was this absolute misfit, a real outsider,"
she later conceded. She did not attend either her junior or senior
prom and was never asked for a date. There was another loner in the
class behind hers, a chess champion, who also seemed in a world of his
own. He wore a hat with leaflets and laughed hysterically as he read
MAD magazine. Every day she had lunch with Bobby "and I found him very
sexy," she said.
THIS CRAZY WORLD OF CHESS (revised edition) by GM Larry Evans
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
wrote:
>
> Amazing that Phil is still clinging to this notion after the facts
> and testimony we've presented here about Fischer's obvious
> heterosexuality, both in his teens and later.
I think that this episodes indicate that Fischer
on occasions tried hard to do what other boys
do. Outside the chess Fischer badly wanted to
be like others kids, like his "cool" peers.
His English was like this even when he was over 50.
> In any event, developmental psychologists know that what might be
> called a homosexual phase ("Girls have cooties!") is quite normal for
> boys around the time of adolescence. However, this is hardly the same
> thing as being a "closet gay."
It was unfortunate and sloppy of me
to use the "closet gay" phrase.
I believe that Fischer had strong sexual
inhibitions because if he let it free,
if he disregarded the social pressure,
he would be a homosexual. In my opinion his
forced on himself meager heterosexual incidents
support my opinion. Observe that he was
somewhat misogynous.
Fischer's craziness can be attributed perhaps
both to his difficult bastard status and to
his repressed homosexuality.
Best regards,
Wlod
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
<sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think that this episodes indicate that Fischer
* these
Sorry,
Wlod
madams
.
> Someone writing here once put about the rumor later Larry Evans bought
> Fischer a whore to put him off his game.
Aha ! I see now (we) begin to seperate the men from the boys, (alphas
from also's) so to speak... what creeping jesuit will now contend a
pre-game bonk (juicy) is a deleterious no-no ? - I'll be more than
interested (drool) in evidence (any) ? .....................
m.
Taylor Kingston
I'm sorry, Wlod, but the logic here just strikes me as absurd. For
the first half of Fischer's life, whatever sexual activity we know of
is all heterosexual. There is not a single bit of evidence or
testimony for homosexual activity by him, as far as I know or anyone
has presented here. In the latter half of his life, there is /ample/
evidence of heterosexuality, and still none of homosexuality. Yet from
this, you conclude he was really gay? Sorry, that does not compute.
You might as well take someone whose known sexual activity has been
100% homoerotic, and conclude that he is a repressed heterosexual.
Taylor Kingston
> ChessFire wrote:
>
> > Someone writing here once put about the rumor later Larry Evans bought
> > Fischer a whore to put him off his game.
>
> Aha ! I see now (we) begin to seperate the men from the boys, (alphas
> from also's) so to speak... what creeping jesuit will now contend a
> pre-game bonk (juicy) is a deleterious no-no ? - I'll be more than
> interested (drool) in evidence (any) ? .....................
There was a lot more involved than just bonking at Buenos Aires
1960. Evans kept Fischer up carousing until all hours. On page 105 of
his autobiography, Benko relates how Fischer and Evans came banging on
his door at 4 AM. And it wasn't just one night; Fischer and Evans
apparently went out many times. Benko concludes "All in all, the
nightly adventures took their toll on [Fischer], and he had the worst
performance of his international career."
So, I suspect lack of sleep had more to do with Fischer's debacle
than the expenditure of semen. BTW, Benko got a measure of revenge for
Fischer's thoughtless door-banging, as he defeated him in the last
round:
[Event "Buenos Aires"]
[Site "Buenos Aires"]
[Date "1960.07.21"]
[Round "19"]
[White "Benko, Pal C"]
[Black "Fischer, Robert James"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E62"]
[PlyCount "53"]
[EventDate "1960.06.23"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "19"]
[EventCountry "ARG"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 O-O 5. Nc3 d6 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. h3 e5
8. O-O exd4 9. Nxd4 Nxd4 10. Qxd4 Be6 11. Qh4 Nd7 12. Bg5 f6 13. Be3
g5 14. Qd4 f5 15.Qd2 f4 16. gxf4 gxf4 17. Bxf4 Nb6 18. Qe3 Qf6 19. Bg5
Qg6 20. Qg3 Nxc4 21. Nd5 Qf7 22. Bh6 c6 23. Bxg7 Qxg7 24. Qxg7+ Kxg7
25. Nc7 Kf6 26. Nxa8 Rxa8 27. b3
1-0
William Hyde
wrote:
> Yes, his collapse may have been unrelated to syphilis. If both he
> and Chigorin had the flu, that could explain their sub-par
> performances. At Hastings, just a few months earlier, Pillsbury had
> finished 1st and Chigorin 2nd, ahead of Lasker (3rd) and Steinitz
> (5th). Yet at St. Petersburg they brought up the rear,
With four players, at least 50% have to bring up the rear! Actually I
was once in a four player event in which 100% of us finished last.
with Lasker at
> 11½-6½, Steinits 9½-8½, Pillsbury 8-10 and Chigorin 7-11.
But at Hastings Lasker was still somewhat weak from a fever. And he
did very well at Nuremberg after Hastings. As for Steinitz, older and
formerly strong players can come back into form unexpectedly (e.g.
world championship candidate Smyslov in the 1980s).
Also, the two tournaments were quite different. These multi-round
events against world class opposition are different from a large
tournament with players of different abilities, as Hastings was.
Psychologically, they can be as much like a match as a tournament:
Steinitz had a superb match record, and Lasker was building one.
I don't think the relative finishing in these two events tells us
much about who did and did not have the flu.
William Hyde
Taylor Kingston
I can agree in part, Bill. Yes, Lasker was still not back to full
health at Hastings (Aug-Sep 1895), but was by the time of StP three
months later. And the format and level of competition were different:
plenty of rabbits for easy points at Hastings — Pillsbury scored 10½-½
against the lower half of the table there — but none at StP, just 18
games in 21 days against fellow GMs, all-time greats every one of
them.
However, the fact remains that Pillsbury scored +5 -1 =3 in the
first half at St. Petersburg, defeating Lasker twice and Chigorin
three times, losing only to Steinitz. The standings after 9 rounds,
when each contestant had played the others three times:
1. Pillsbury 6½-½
2. Lasker 5½-2½
3. SteinItz 4½-4½
4. Chigorin 1½-7½
If the level of competition was too much for Pillsbury, it sure
didn't show to that point. Then in the second half, he scored a
dreadful +0 -6 =3. Offhand I can't think of a tournament in which a
great player had such a dramatic, almost total collapse after such a
fine start. This inclines me to think that health problems of some
sort were at least partly responsible.
RayGordon
>
> - Show quoted text -
I went to grade school with Cynthia Nixon for five years. Sat
directly across from her for two. Most New York City schools have
some public figures who graduate.
Not surprising Barbra would be into brains.
None
>
> I went to grade school with Cynthia Nixon for five years. Sat
> directly across from her for two.
Isn't that special.
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
wrote:
>
> Offhand I can't think of a tournament in which a
> great player had such a dramatic, almost total collapse after such a
> fine start. This inclines me to think that health problems of some
> sort were at least partly responsible.
Sometimes something seemingly minor may affect a player
a lot, while not other players--like weather (fresh
air or lack of it, temperature), allergy, ...
Regards,
Wlod
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
wrote:
>
> I'm sorry, Wlod, but the logic here just strikes me as absurd. For
> the first half of Fischer's life, whatever sexual activity we know of
> is all heterosexual. There is not a single bit of evidence or
> testimony for homosexual activity by him, as far as I know or anyone
> has presented here. In the latter half of his life, there is /ample/
> evidence of heterosexuality, and still none of homosexuality. Yet from
> this, you conclude he was really gay? Sorry, that does not compute.
> You might as well take someone whose known sexual activity has been
> 100% homoerotic, and conclude that he is a repressed heterosexual.
I am surprised, Taylor, by your simplistic statement.
And to avoid further misunderstandings, I was claiming
that possibly Fischer was a repressed homosexual (I never
said about any homosexual activity on his part; indeed,
I don't know about anybody mentioning anything like this).
In the old days thousands of homosexuals were marrying,
had family life. These were very unhappy stories. In a bit
newer times such homosexuals would finally break out,
leave their families and get into homosexual relations.
Many men simply had no sexual life, and most likely due to their
homosexual tendency, which they didn't admit even to themselves.
Many homosexuals start they sexual activities with hetero
experiences.
In the case of Fischer I am sure that you will easily
find quotes about girls smiling to him, while he
showed no interest in them.
The Argentinian episode is very peculiar.
First of all Evans acted irresponsibly.
But let mi go back to our thread. Fischer suddenly,
without earlier experiencing any social, romantic
or erotic relations with girls goes to the town
to jump straight into sex. Why would he do it?
Why wouldn't he put off by such a step, when there was
no introduction for him? As you can deduce from what
Benko has written, Fischer did it not for the sake
of need of contact with women (even if he had a lot
of sexual energy trapped in him). Possibly, under
similar social situation any gadget would be for him
as good as a woman. It was a contact with men that
was important to him. Indeed, Fischer got so
vonfused by all this that he asked Benko to provide
him with Benko's female company. Where did such a
dirty, insensitive idea came to him? Why? The only
model for him was his experience of sharing women
with Evans. So, he assumed that this is how it is.
It was for Fischer the game between the men that counted,
and not the women as such.
Compare Fischer with young Kramnik. In his teens Kramnik
would enjoy girls, drinks and food in the most natural way,
without any sick guidance of an older man. Kramnik's
chess and chess successes had suffered but altogether
he did perhaps fine.
On the other hand the Fischer's story is sick. A teenager
suddenly acts like some older politicians or professional
military personnel who share their whores. That's the
kind of relation which teeaged Fisher went through.
And it was isolated. He had all the potential for frequent
romantic and erotic adventures: fame, good looks, money...
but he was not into it. And he did show a negative attitude
toward women. The odds are that he was a **repressed**
homosexual, so inhibited, that he would not act on his
true drive. He didn't because opinion of others about him
was infinitely important to him. He couldn't stand the idea
of himself viewed as a homosexual, thus he didn't
even let it come to his mind.
Regards,
Wlod.
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
<sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Many men simply had no sexual life, and most likely due to their
> homosexual tendency, which they didn't admit even to themselves.
>
A famous likely example would be Brittish
mathematician Godfrey Harold Hardy. His
long time collaborator John Edensor Littlewood
called Hardy "a non-practicing homosexual",
something like this. Indeed, it was widely
believed that Hardy was a homosexual who didn't
have any sexual adventures.
There are known examples of scientists
who would not even stand a sight of a woman.
They didn't have any sexual relations,
and it is very likely that most of them
were repressed homosexuals.
Regards,
Wlod
RayGordon
That was when Cynthia was merely a human being, not a celebrity.
Taylor Kingston
<sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2:41 pm, Taylor Kingston <taylor.kings...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'm sorry, Wlod, but the logic here just strikes me as absurd. For
> > the first half of Fischer's life, whatever sexual activity we know of
> > is all heterosexual. There is not a single bit of evidence or
> > testimony for homosexual activity by him, as far as I know or anyone
> > has presented here. In the latter half of his life, there is /ample/
> > evidence of heterosexuality, and still none of homosexuality. Yet from
> > this, you conclude he was really gay? Sorry, that does not compute.
> > You might as well take someone whose known sexual activity has been
> > 100% homoerotic, and conclude that he is a repressed heterosexual.
>
> I am surprised, Taylor, by your simplistic statement.
You are surprised that I prefer evidence to speculation?
> And to avoid further misunderstandings, I was claiming
> that possibly Fischer was a repressed homosexual (I never
> said about any homosexual activity on his part; indeed,
> I don't know about anybody mentioning anything like this).
I'm glad we can agree at least on this last point.
> In the old days thousands of homosexuals were marrying,
> had family life. These were very unhappy stories. In a bit
> newer times such homosexuals would finally break out,
> leave their families and get into homosexual relations.
> Many men simply had no sexual life, and most likely due to their
> homosexual tendency, which they didn't admit even to themselves.
And you connect this to Fischer how? I mean, besides surmise and
speculation?
> Many homosexuals start they sexual activities with hetero
> experiences.
True. Also many heterosexuals start with homosexual experimentation
in their youth. So what?
> In the case of Fischer I am sure that you will easily
> find quotes about girls smiling to him, while he
> showed no interest in them.
Yep. That's happened to me to, and both ways. Sometimes I smiled at
the girls, and they did not smile back. (sigh)
> The Argentinian episode is very peculiar.
> First of all Evans acted irresponsibly.
But obviously without serious objection on Fischer's part.
> But let mi go back to our thread. Fischer suddenly,
> without earlier experiencing any social, romantic
> or erotic relations with girls goes to the town
> to jump straight into sex. Why would he do it?
I suppose because Evans told him it would be fun.
> Why wouldn't he put off by such a step,
A testosterone-laden 17-year-old virgin should be put off by the
prospect of getting laid?? Wlod, come on!
> when there was
> no introduction for him?
You're saying Evans didn't observe the formalities? Um, who needs an
introduction for a hooker? You pay her, you have her.
> As you can deduce from what
> Benko has written, Fischer did it not for the sake
> of need of contact with women
How the deuce do you deduce that?
> (even if he had a lot
> of sexual energy trapped in him). Possibly, under
> similar social situation any gadget would be for him
> as good as a woman.
I don't agree that the evidence bears that interpretation. It seems
to me that if Fischer were a dyed-in-the-wool homosexual, the sort who
is repelled by women, he would have refused. It looks to me like he
jumped at the chance, as most naive young men would. Recalling how
horny I was at age 17, I probably would have done the same, in
Fischer's place.
> It was a contact with men that
> was important to him.
What makes you say that? What sexual contacts with men do you know
of for Fischer?
> Indeed, Fischer got so
> vonfused by all this that he asked Benko to provide
> him with Benko's female company.
What??? Where in Benko's autobiography do you see that? I certainly
don't, and I was the proofreader for the book before it went to
press.
> Where did such a
> dirty, insensitive idea came to him? Why?
I'm not aware that such an idea came to Fischer at all.
> The only
> model for him was his experience of sharing women
> with Evans. So, he assumed that this is how it is.
> It was for Fischer the game between the men that counted,
> and not the women as such.
If you mean that Fischer was obsessed with chess, at the expense of
sex (of any stripe) and other common pursuits, I agree.
> Compare Fischer with young Kramnik. In his teens Kramnik
> would enjoy girls, drinks and food in the most natural way,
> without any sick guidance of an older man. Kramnik's
> chess and chess successes had suffered but altogether
> he did perhaps fine.
>
> On the other hand the Fischer's story is sick. A teenager
> suddenly acts like some older politicians or professional
> military personnel who share their whores.
No, he acts like a naive young man led into temptation by an older,
experienced man. It has happened millions of times. Maybe Evans had an
ulterior motive (i.e. knocking Fischer out of contention), maybe it
was unethical from a sporting point of view, maybe it was in bad
taste, and certainly it's nothing I would do myself, were I in Evans'
place. But "sick"?
> That's the
> kind of relation which teeaged Fisher went through.
> And it was isolated. He had all the potential for frequent
> romantic and erotic adventures: fame, good looks, money...
> but he was not into it. And he did show a negative attitude
> toward women. The odds are that he was a **repressed**
> homosexual, so inhibited, that he would not act on his
> true drive. He didn't because opinion of others about him
> was infinitely important to him. He couldn't stand the idea
> of himself viewed as a homosexual, thus he didn't
> even let it come to his mind.
>
> Regards,
>
> Wlod.
I'm sorry, Wlod, but I see no factual basis for your interpretation.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but you have no evidence that you are
right. What real evidence we have points to normal heterosexuality for
Fischer, its full expression only being postponed by his obsession
with chess. Anything else seems to me pure speculation.
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
<sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> (I never said about [...]).
* (I never said anything about...).
> In the old days thousands of homosexuals were marrying,
(Meaning: non-practicing homosexuals)
> Many homosexuals start they sexual activities with hetero
> experiences.
* their (not "they")
> Why wouldn't he put off by such a step, when there was
* Why would't he be put off ...
==========
Wlod
ChessFire
wrote:
> On Nov 15, 10:07 am, ChessFire <onech...@comcast.net> wrote:
> But for Heaven's sake, Kingston - dating at 28 or
>
> > 30 years old is later than usual, isn't it?
>
> Are you suggesting that single men of "28 or 30" shouldn't date?
How about you? Did you date before 30? I rather doubt it - but that is
really your business no? And this is not an intrigue rather than an
abstract observation about someone who apparently weighed 500lbs?
I don't know why there is such interest in speculating about Morphy's
or Fischer's sex lives, but because there is actually verifies my
point that Victorians would also speculate on Morphy, hey?
Phil Innes
ChessFire
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 14, 4:37 pm, ChessFire <onech...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > Fischer was famous for a brief season - and had no declared
>
> > > Not true. By the end of the 1972 Spassky match, Fischer was involved
> > > with one or two Icelandic girls. There's a photo of one on page 97 of
> > > "Fischer World Champion" by Euwe and Timman (NiC, 2002). Fischer was
> > > 29 at that time.
>
> > Photographed with women! Well, that's a start.
>
> > > > like Morphy also had not, but Fischer was
> > > > undeclared at that time, no?
>
>
> > But our Taylor sees a photo which completely satisfies his curiosity.
>
> The two ladies are also discussed, and named, on pages 283-284 of
> "Bobby Fischer Goes to War" (2004). They were Anna Thorsteinsdottir,
> age 18, and her friend Inga, 17. Their meetings with Fischer were
> arranged by his bodyguard Saemi Palsson.
I know Saemi personally, do you?
<...>
> > Well, if the KGB say so, it must be true.
>
> > > > so what should we be aware of in this respect?
>
> > > That Phil Innes habitually pontificates on matters he knows nothing
> > > about.
>
> > I wouldn't say that a photo or a KGB report is anything to write home,
> > or write here about.
>
> It's certainly more than you offer, Phil.
Yes it is, I do not phone and tell all. But you are interested in
what, Kingston? You like the KGB like you liked the Russian bloke who
worked for them, and when interviewing Averbakh you neglected, even
after asking me about him, to ask him any 'difficult questions'.
You never applied to my sources who frankly thought he would not speak
true, and also declined to publish him.
You remember?
:)
> All you do is assert,
> completely without evidence.
Kingbone has gotten abstract as usual, both on what the subject is and
what is 'evidence'.
> Then when anyone else actually presents
> some relevant evidence contradicting your assertions, you merely
> dismiss it out of hand, but still fail to present any evidence of your
> own.
> I've cited three sources, while you've cited none. So far the score
> is 3-0 in my favor. As long as you fail to present evidence, your
> score will remain at zero.
But you are a lightweight, Kingbone, and above can't even mention what
you cited 3 times, and then score yourself as a winner. If you want to
actually engage with others, name your nouns, etc.
You want to talk about what subject and [laugh] not cite but mention
Fischer photographed with girls as a 'citation' as if this mean
something to you...? What?
> > But for Heaven's sake, Kingston - dating at 28 or
> > 30 years old is later than usual, isn't it?
>
> Of course it is.
Thank you
> But Fischer was "married" to chess through 1972,
> which left him little time for women.
But?!
Capablanca was certainly the best player of his age and said anyone
play chess instead of going on a date is nuts!
You see? Or you don't see?
> > Surely that is the point I
> > made -
>
> As usual when you're caught out, you try to re-spin your own words.
> No, Phil, I'm addressing two points you very clearly made, that (A)
> "Fischer was [sexually] undeclared at that time," (i.e. 1972) and (B)
> that "Fischer's sex drive is unexamined." I have presented testimony
> that Fischer was then avowedly heterosexual, and that his sex life /
> had/ been examined.
You said he had been photographed with whores and dancers.
ROFL
> > please don't become hysterical about yet another issue and
> > start in with your name calling.
>
> No name-calling, Phil. Merely calling another of your many bluffs.
Wasn't it you who said said to me by e-mail that Larry Evans bought
Fischer a whore to put him off his game? Of course, that is part of
the Kingston Files which you never admitted sending me, and the only
means of assessing them were to return them to you, when you would
deny them, rather then the server records.
Interesting bent you have on sex Kingston. But ability to objectively
discuss it, or anything else much, not!
Phil Innes
ChessFire
wrote:
> On Nov 15, 7:11 pm, Mike Murray <mikemur...@despammed.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:13:51 -0800 (PST), Taylor Kingston
>
> > <taylor.kings...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > I should also add that the girls are mentioned in Brad Darrach's
> > >"Bobby Fischer vs. the Rest of the World":
>
> > For someone with pretensions to historical expertise, Phil shows a
> > remarkable unfamiliarity with major works of chess autobiography.
>
> > Benko's book contains anecdotes reflecting a teen-age Fischer's South
> > American hetero preferences.
>
> You're right, Mike. I should have mentioned this sooner. The 17-year-
> old Fischer "lost his cherry" in Buenos Aires in 1960, sampling the
> pleasures of the Argentine capital's night life and demimonde under
> the tutelage of Larry Evans. He overindulged so much he had the worst
> result of his career, scoring +3 -5 =11 to place only =13th-16th of
> 20.
> Benko is not the only one to write about this. In a 12/31/1976
> article for Hollands Diep, Dutch GM Jan Hein Donner wrote:
>
> "One of [Fischer's] rivals in that tournament was the American
> grandmaster Larry Evans, and the story goes that he found a Bovaryan
> lady prepared for a small sum to surround Fischer with her charms.
> This approach proved a success for Evans, as Fischer finished
> thirteenth in the tournament — the only real debacle he ever
> suffered." (as reprinted in "The King", NiC 1997, translation by
> Richard de Weger, p. 239)
>
> A funny thing about this: Innes already knew of it. I told him about
> Fischer at Buenos Aires 1960 while we lunched together at a Vermont
> tournament some years ago. That he would now pontificate about Fischer
> being still sexually "undeclared" at age 30 shows that Phil is
> unfamiliar not only with chess biographies, but with his own memory as
> well.
It does not auger against any knowledge, in fact did you suggest that
someone bought Fischer a whore, Kingston?
Whether I believe what is written is other business than you or idiot-
Murray address.
But you are both so sure of yourselves, poetically; fucking sure,
while being too protestant about your surety for me.
Phil Innes
ChessFire
wrote:
> On Nov 17, 9:14 am, ChessFire <onech...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 14, 1:19 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> > <sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > If one is seeking closet gays among
> > > the strongest chess players, then
> > > Fischer would be the strongest candidate.
>
> > > Wlod
>
> > And probably true early in his life.
>
> Amazing that Phil is still clinging to this notion after the facts
> and testimony we've presented here about Fischer's obvious
> heterosexuality, both in his teens and later.
> In any event, developmental psychologists know that what might be
> called a homosexual phase ("Girls have cooties!") is quite normal for
> boys around the time of adolescence.
And this for Kingston is not to embarrass the first thing he wrote
above!
> However, this is hardly the same
> thing as being a "closet gay."
However, this is not /necessarily/ the same thing, but at age 30 even
26 even 26 ...?
> > Psychologists sniff at the idea
> > of being asexual,
>
> They also sniff at holding fast to beliefs that are clearly
> contradicted by factual evidence.
How abstract. Kingston sees a couple of girls around Fischer at 29,
and even dancing and is making some case? What case? What is he now
setting me up to argue with?
Another massive straw man thread with vague references to "holding
fast to beliefs that are clearly
contradicted by factual evidence" whatever that means.
I said it is weird when blokes don't have any sexual relations, Morphy
same as Fischer, and this is psychologically interesting, and not
prescriptive, but certainly interesting.
Kingbone replies on the technical point that Fischer was photographed
with girls when he was 29!
This apparently is a statement about Kingston's ideas of Fischer's
sexuality, and perhaps Morphy's too?
Who knows with hysterics? Obviously neither Morphy nor Fischer was gay
not even for 29 years - is that Kingston's point?
Who knows?
Phil Innes
ChessFire
> On the other hand the Fischer's story is sick. A teenager
> suddenly acts like some older politicians or professional
> military personnel who share their whores. That's the
> kind of relation which teeaged Fisher went through.
> And it was isolated. He had all the potential for frequent
> romantic and erotic adventures: fame, good looks, money...
> but he was not into it. And he did show a negative attitude
> toward women. The odds are that he was a **repressed**
> homosexual, so inhibited, that he would not act on his
> true drive. He didn't because opinion of others about him
> was infinitely important to him. He couldn't stand the idea
> of himself viewed as a homosexual, thus he didn't
> even let it come to his mind.
>
> Regards,
>
> Wlod.
well, good luck with your perspective with Americans brother. i tried
this same thing about Morphy, and NOT suggesting he was gay but could
have been seen to be so. Everyone [Americans] hated even looking at
it.
you try something here a bit more sophisticated in terms of sexual
deployment, and you will likely receive an even more hostile reception
about the boy who grew up with only his mother, went to all male chess
clubs, and truly loved the games and its players
this seemed to keep him apart from the world of women for the first
half of his life, and reports of his sexual activities via whores or
via avuncular influence to women are of course suspect to any /rea/l
feeling for women, rather than these artifices and bought
circumstances to fit in with some idea of being male
heuch!
now, this does not indicate that fischer was actively or passively
homosexual, on the same basis as morphy's circumstances indicated
anything, but it does raise the question how any american here would
investigate what was true for either of them
and as you see, are there any /real/ questions being asked of you, or
is the subject taboo?
Phil Innes
phil Innes
The Historian
> On Nov 15, 10:22 am, The Historian <neil.thehistor...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 15, 10:07 am, ChessFire <onech...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > But for Heaven's sake, Kingston - dating at 28 or
>
> > > 30 years old is later than usual, isn't it?
>
> > Are you suggesting that single men of "28 or 30" shouldn't date?
>
> How about you? Did you date before 30? I rather doubt it - but that is
> really your business no? And this is not an intrigue rather than an
> abstract observation about someone who apparently weighed 500lbs?
Care to explain why your wives left you, Philsy?
> I don't know why there is such interest in speculating about Morphy's
> or Fischer's sex lives..
The interest is all yours.
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
(to T.K.):
>
> How about you? Did you date before 30? I rather doubt it -
> but that is really your business no?
Stop it, Phil, if you want any chance of being treated
seriously.
Regards,
Wlod
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
wrote:
> On Nov 18, 6:37 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
>
> You are surprised that I prefer evidence to speculation?
I respect your stress on facts as opposed to speculation.
I am objecting to the simplistic way of getting your
conclusions. A big part of it is that you are accepting
some evidence while disregarding some other.
> > In the old days thousands of homosexuals were marrying,
> > had family life. These were very unhappy stories. In a bit
> > newer times such homosexuals would finally break out,
> > leave their families and get into homosexual relations.
> > Many men simply had no sexual life, and most likely due to their
> > homosexual tendency, which they didn't admit even to themselves.
>
> And you connect this to Fischer how?
I am showing that the heterosexual relations,
even when prolonged and producing children,
still allow for the possibility that the man
in question is a homosexual.
> > Many homosexuals start they sexual activities with hetero
> > experiences.
>
> True. Also many heterosexuals start with homosexual experimentation
> in their youth.
Actually, not so many.
> > In the case of Fischer I am sure that you will easily
> > find quotes about girls smiling to him, while he
> > showed no interest in them.
>
> Yep. That's happened to me to, and both ways. Sometimes I smiled at
> the girls, and they did not smile back. (sigh)
I was not talking about this happening to Fischer 30% of the time,
or 90% of the time, but 100% of the time.
> > The Argentinian episode is very peculiar.
> > First of all Evans acted irresponsibly.
>
> But obviously without serious objection on Fischer's part.
It was perhaps the male bonding for Fischer. Perhaps, for the
first time in his life he had an illusion of friendship with
anybody (which happened to be with Evans). All this was wrong
on the part of Evans in a very basic way. He allowed himself
to be a higher force (something of a God) in another (naive)
person's life, and he acted cheap, trivial. With a difficulty
I understand, Taylor, your cynical view here, perhaps meant
for the purpose of this discussion only, but I cannot buy it.
Evans was extremely irresponsible, unthoughtful. I don't want to
sound too harsh, it was just one episode.
> > But let mi go back to our thread. Fischer suddenly,
> > without earlier experiencing any social, romantic
> > or erotic relations with girls goes to the town
> > to jump straight into sex. Why would he do it?
>
> I suppose because Evans told him it would be fun.
>
> > Why wouldn't he be put off by such a step,
>
> A testosterone-laden 17-year-old virgin should be put off by the
> prospect of getting laid?? Wlod, come on!
If he had such a strong desire of women (girls) then why
would it show that late, and why only at that time? He
had plenty of more acceptable opportunities without Evans'
help. And he had many later too. Fischer never said anything
warm, personal about any woman. Even during his Japanese episode
he was publicly talking about his dick and his wife in one sentence.
Fischer claimed that he could give Nona G a knight odds.
That was a mean thing to say (it's irrelevant for the
sake of our thread whether or not Fischer was right).
Chamberlain had sponsored a woman volleyball team.
Steve Wozniak has sponsored ballet--obviously he had
female dancers in his mind, and he married one too.
Fischer instead of acting mean toward women could have
female chess students. He could date or even marry
a chess talented woman, and he could guide her to advanced
chess successes. Thus even being shy didn't have to
preclude healthy, intimate relations with women.
On the other hand, I must admit that Fischer didn't
have any cordial relations, be it with women or men
alike. Or am I exaggerating? Would his contacts with
Tal, Stein or Spassky qualify as such? I don't think
so, all these contacts were too casual.
I still think that this regretful male-female symmetry
would be broken in favor of women if Fischer were hetero.
> > when there was
> > no introduction for him?
>
> You're saying Evans didn't observe the formalities?
I have meant "introduction" in the general
sense, as a build-up which leads to the
main events.
> > As you can deduce from what
> > Benko has written, Fischer did it not for the sake
> > of need of contact with women
>
> How the deuce do you deduce that?
>
> > (even if he had a lot
> > of sexual energy pent up in him). Possibly, under
> > similar social situation any gadget would be for him
> > as good as a woman.
>
> I don't agree that the evidence bears that interpretation. It seems
> to me that if Fischer were a dyed-in-the-wool homosexual, the sort who
> is repelled by women, he would have refused. It looks to me like he
> jumped at the chance, as most naive young men would. Recalling how
> horny I was at age 17, I probably would have done the same, in
> Fischer's place.
>
> > It was a contact with men that
> > was important to him.
>
> What makes you say that? What sexual contacts with men do you know
> of for Fischer?
In this case it was the social contact.
And it was in an indirect way sexual too,
by substitution.
> > Indeed, Fischer got so
> > confused by all this that he asked Benko to provide
> > him with Benko's female company.
>
> What??? Where in Benko's autobiography do you see that?
> I certainly don't, and I was the proofreader for the book
> before it went to press.
>
> > Where did such a
> > dirty, insensitive idea came to him? Why?
>
> I'm not aware that such an idea came to Fischer at all.
"Pal Benko", 1st edition, ISBN 1-890085-08-1, p. 106,
quote (from Benko's narration about the situation
before and after the Benko-Fischer game):
I had been spending too much time away from the board
with a good-looking local Hungarian girl... I must say
that Bobby also liked her and asked if he dated her
after tournament was over. One night, I decided to have
some fun with Bobby and said (in jest, of course),
"Look kid, I'll arrange it, providing that I can have
the point!" When we finally sat dwon to play, I told
Bobby that I was going to beat him without getting him
the date. With some luck, I managed to make good on this
promise, but soon rumors got back to me suggesting
that while Bobby had honored our deal, I had failed
to come through!
End of quote.
Well, here you have it. It's interesting that Benko didn't
express any surprise about Fischer's request. With zillions
of beautiful girls Fischer had to "like" Benko's companion?
Benko didn't have nor felt any need to analize this situation.
Otherwise he would understand that Fischer was seeking
a repeat with Benko of the situation he had with Evans.
It was Benko, not Benko's girl, that Fischer was after.
Perhaps this was also the young Fischer's imaginary way
to climb toward adulthood and acceptance among men. There
are elements of a power game in it too.
> > The only
> > model for him was his experience of sharing women
> > with Evans. So, he assumed that this is how it is.
> > It was for Fischer the game between the men that counted,
> > and not the women as such.
>
> If you mean that Fischer was obsessed with chess,
> at the expense of sex (of any stripe) and other common
> pursuits, I agree.
No, I don't mean it at all. That would be a very
shallow thinking (not worthy the word "thinking").
It's the other way around. Fischer was so completely
obsessed with chess because he had nothing else.
Chess was filling in Fischer's inner emptiness.
> No, he acts like a naive young man led into temptation by an older,
> experienced man. It has happened millions of times. Maybe Evans had an
> ulterior motive (i.e. knocking Fischer out of contention), maybe it
> was unethical from a sporting point of view, maybe it was in bad
> taste, and certainly it's nothing I would do myself, were I in Evans'
> place. But "sick"?
The sporting aspect here is the least important.
Perhaps "sick" is an exaggeration. (It's all in details,
but I don't care to know them).
Best regards,
Wlod
The Historian
He gave up those chances years ago.
Taylor Kingston
<sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 18, 4:34 pm, Taylor Kingston <taylor.kings...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 18, 6:37 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> > > I am surprised, Taylor, by your simplistic statement.
>
> > You are surprised that I prefer evidence to speculation?
>
> I respect your stress on facts as opposed to speculation.
> I am objecting to the simplistic way of getting your
> conclusions. A big part of it is that you are accepting
> some evidence while disregarding some other.
Wlod, you have not presented /any/ evidence!
> > > In the old days thousands of homosexuals were marrying,
> > > had family life. These were very unhappy stories. In a bit
> > > newer times such homosexuals would finally break out,
> > > leave their families and get into homosexual relations.
> > > Many men simply had no sexual life, and most likely due to their
> > > homosexual tendency, which they didn't admit even to themselves.
>
> > And you connect this to Fischer how?
>
> I am showing that the heterosexual relations,
> even when prolonged and producing children,
> still allow for the possibility that the man
> in question is a homosexual.
"Allowing for a possibility" is still a far cry from showing it is
true. Yes, some homosexual men (and women) do repress their true
sexuality, and engage in heterosexual relations, sometimes even
including marriage and children. But this general observation does
nothing to establish a particular, specific case.
Let's put it another way. There are some men who speak Basque. There
are some men who can fly planes. There are some men who commit murder.
However, you cannot use this general observation as "evidence" that
Fischer ever spoke Basque, flew a plane, or committed murder. Do you
see my point now?
> Evans was extremely irresponsible, unthoughtful. I don't want to
> sound too harsh, it was just one episode.
I agree. However, the topic here is not Evan's sense of
responsibility, but Fischer's sexuality. Irresponsibly or not, Evans
demonstrated that Fischer was indeed interested in the opposite sex.
Wlod, the above is just armchair psychologizing, still with no
evidence at all.
> I still think that this regretful male-female symmetry
> would be broken in favor of women if Fischer were hetero.
Ahem — it was.
> > > It was a contact with men that
> > > was important to him.
>
> > What makes you say that? What sexual contacts with men do you know
> > of for Fischer?
>
> In this case it was the social contact.
> And it was in an indirect way sexual too,
> by substitution.
Now you're really going out on a limb. Chess is mostly a man's
world, so of course as a chess professional most of Fischer's social
contact was with men. Yet you insist his real motive was homosexual
yearnings? By that logic, you and I, and most people posting on this
group, would be gay.
> > > Indeed, Fischer got so
> > > confused by all this that he asked Benko to provide
> > > him with Benko's female company.
What contorted logic! Fischer was interested in a girl. There's
usually a very simple explanation for this: teenage boys are attracted
to girls. It's a hormonal thing built into our genes. Yet you insist
Fischer's interest derived from "confusion" due to using male social
contact as an indirect substitute for homosexual gratification? Jeez,
Wlod, it looks to me like you're the one who is confused here.
> "Pal Benko", 1st edition, ISBN 1-890085-08-1, p. 106,
> quote (from Benko's narration about the situation
> before and after the Benko-Fischer game):
>
> I had been spending too much time away from the board
> with a good-looking local Hungarian girl... I must say
> that Bobby also liked her and asked if he dated her
> after tournament was over. One night, I decided to have
> some fun with Bobby and said (in jest, of course),
> "Look kid, I'll arrange it, providing that I can have
> the point!" When we finally sat dwon to play, I told
> Bobby that I was going to beat him without getting him
> the date. With some luck, I managed to make good on this
> promise, but soon rumors got back to me suggesting
> that while Bobby had honored our deal, I had failed
> to come through!
>
> End of quote.
Thank you for supplying yet more evidence of normal heterosexuality
for Fischer. I had forgotten about that episode at Buenos Aires 1960.
> > Where did such a
> > dirty, insensitive idea came to him? Why?
I would say it's obvious that the idea of dating the girl was
prompted by normal heterosexual desires. Now if Fischer had asked
Benko himself for a date, then you'd have something. As for the idea
being "dirty, insensitive," that's irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Dirty or clean, it was clearly a heterosexual idea.
None
Did she laugh at you too?
None
wrote:
"Allowing for a possibility" is still a far cry from showing it is
true. Yes, some homosexual men (and women) do repress their true
sexuality, and engage in heterosexual relations, sometimes even
including marriage and children. But this general observation does
nothing to establish a particular, specific case..."
Does this apply to J.Edgar Hoover? He who once said, "I regret to say
that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital
intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate commerce."
Mike Murray
<onec...@comcast.net> wrote:
>I know Saemi personally, do you?
Heh, heh. Then, he probably knows better than to tell you anything.
William Hyde
wrote:
> 1. Pillsbury 6½-½
> 2. Lasker 5½-2½
> 3. SteinItz 4½-4½
> 4. Chigorin 1½-7½
>
> If the level of competition was too much for Pillsbury,
But there was never any question of that. Certainly he was one of the
top five, if not top two, until his illness grew worse circa 1904.
And even in his last tournament he defeated Lasker.
it sure
> didn't show to that point. Then in the second half, he scored a
> dreadful +0 -6 =3. Offhand I can't think of a tournament in which a
> great player had such a dramatic, almost total collapse after such a
> fine start. This inclines me to think that health problems of some
> sort were at least partly responsible.
It's an unusual collapse, and possibly the biggest ever, I agree. The
closest parallel I can come up with at the moment is Fine's 5.5-0.5
start at AVRO and negative score thereafter. Though not *that*
negative, of course, only -2 if I recall correctly. Still a stunning
reversal, though.
William Hyde
Taylor Kingston
Yes, Fine was +5 after 6 games, and finished +3 (8½-5½). But Fine
still ended up tied for 1st. Pillsbury went from 1st to 3rd, i.e. next
to last, only one point ahead of tail-ender Chigorin. Definitely a
bigger collapse, IMO.
Checking Wikipedia, I see that symptoms of syphilis can appear as
early as 10 ten days after exposure. So it's conceivable that
Pillsbury knew he was infected right around the halfway point at St.
Pete. Between that and Pope's flu hypothesis, we have two very
plausible ways illness could have affected his play.
Of course, we can't rule out that he was a closet gay, probably
being blackmailed. That seems to be a very popular hypothesis these
days, invoked to explain all kinds of things. ;-)
None
wrote:
> On Nov 19, 2:34 pm, William Hyde <wthyde1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
"Of course, we can't rule out that he was a closet gay, probably
being blackmailed. That seems to be a very popular hypothesis these
Are you winking at Dr Hyde? Hmmmnnnn
jeremy.p...@vanderbilt.edu
A common explanation at the time (see, for example, NY Sun Jan 19,
1896; available via the library of congress newspaper website) was
that he had invested a good deal of his own money in advance (I
believe Elwell said $6000) for complete publication rights in
collaboration with Steinitz to all the games outside of Russia, and
then around the beginning of the 4th round received the NY papers
which were publishing all the games. I am not a big fan of Elwell, who
reported this, but I do like his comment that listening to Steinitz
complain would have caused Dante to add another circle to Hell. When
Pillsbury returned, he said he might have more to say about St
Petersburg at some future date, but if he ever said more I have not
come across it.
Jerry Spinrad
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
wrote:
> On Nov 19, 2:31 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> <sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 18, 4:34 pm, Taylor Kingston <taylor.kings...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 18, 6:37 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> > > > I am surprised, Taylor, by your simplistic statement.
>
> > > You are surprised that I prefer evidence to speculation?
>
> > I respect your stress on facts as opposed to speculation.
> > I am objecting to the simplistic way of getting your
> > conclusions. A big part of it is that you are accepting
> > some evidence while disregarding some other.
>
> Wlod, you have not presented /any/ evidence!
It's not like I have to dig up a forgotten scrap
of paper. Until and including the time of the
Spassky-Fischer match all of us, who care a bit
about chess events, know enough about Fischer to
doubt that he was a regular hetero youngster or
young man. He had plenty of opportunities to develop
personal relations with girls; relations based on
mutual personal and erotic attraction. It has never
happened. Not even in Yugoslavia, where many women
and girls respect chess, and even know about chess
a lot. The 3 episodes involvin Evans, Benko
and the Icelandic body guard lasted about as long
as the parallel contact with the repsective man--they
were more about male bonding than about women.
Fisher had turned each contact with women into
a non-event. His bad taste in the mouth (pardon)
after the adventure wioth Evans is understandable.
But his negative reactions to the casual meetings
of girls show that essentially girls had no part
in his life. In particular he was never quoted
with any positive statement about women, or even
something like "I am waiting for the right woman
to enter my life, one day I'll meet her." This is
typically what hetero bachelors say. Nothing
like this from Fischer. It's amazing how such
a phrase feels drastically far removed from Fischer.
While there is no black in white evidence
that Fischer was a repressed homosexual
(non-active), there is even less evidence
that he was not. He was a kind of forcing
an occasional relation on himself only to
break it without any other reason but his
lack of any feel of attraction toward women.
That's how his Hungarian episode had fizzled down
despite a very positive and constructive behavior
of the involved Hungarian woman. A harmonious,
happy relation with a woman had no place in
Fischer's personal world -- at the best it was
an intruder. So, each time anything had a chance to
develop, he was getting rid of the intruder.
Regards,
Wlod
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
wrote:
>
> "Allowing for a possibility" is still
> a far cry from showing it is true.
Taylor, in general, in this discussion,
try to apply the same standards to your
opinion and to mine.
Regards,
Wlod
Louis Blair
7 ...
7 How would we actually know of chess
7 players sexual habits contrasted with
7 those above. Few famous people to the
7 general public are chess players - Fischer
7 was famous for a brief season - and had
7 no declared girlfriends even at age 30 like
7 Morphyalso had not, ...
_
_
Is there some registry of "declared
girlfriends" that you have consulted?
Louis Blair
7 ...
7 I don't know why there is such interest in
7 speculating about Morphy's or Fischer's
7 sex lives, but because there is actually
7 verifies my point that Victorians would
7 also speculate on Morphy, hey?
_
_
The possibility of speculation today does
not mean that a homosexuality accusation
could have been successfully made while
Morphy was alive, while people who knew
Morphy were alive, while people who
immediately knew the then current
language usage were alive, while people
who could see Morphy were alive, while
Edge was alive, etc.
Louis Blair
7 ...
7 I said it is weird when blokes don't have
7 any sexual relations, Morphy same as
7 Fischer, and this is psychologically
7 interesting, and not prescriptive, but
7 certainly interesting.
7 ...
_
_
I have not seen you present evidence that
Morphy had no sexual relations.
Mike Murray
<taylor....@comcast.net> wrote:
> Of course, we can't rule out that he was a closet gay, probably
>being blackmailed. That seems to be a very popular hypothesis these
>days, invoked to explain all kinds of things. ;-)
Leading Edge hypothesis, to be sure.
Mike Murray
(Wlod)" <senn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>While there is no black in white evidence
>that Fischer was a repressed homosexual
>(non-active), there is even less evidence
>that he was not. He was a kind of forcing
>an occasional relation on himself only to
>break it without any other reason but his
>lack of any feel of attraction toward women.
I don't think that's remotely true.
Over the years, various news accounts described Fischer closeting
himself away for long periods of time with his chess books AND copies
of Playboy (never read any mention of Playgirl). And he mentioned to
the bible thumpers that he wanted to meet big breasted girls like the
ones in Playboy -- and they evidently introduced him to more than one.
Fischer's relations with most people, men and women, seemed transient
and somewhat exploitative, although we certainly don't have full
access to all the nooks and crannies of his personal life.
Heh, heh. Wlod, you better get vaccinated for Innesitis. It's going
around and gives you bigger headaches than swine flu.
Mike Murray
<onec...@comcast.net> wrote:
>I said it is weird when blokes don't have any sexual relations, Morphy
>same as Fischer, and this is psychologically interesting, and not
>prescriptive, but certainly interesting.
Before casting such aspersions, Phil, just ask yourself a question:
what would Jesus say ?
ChessFire
> On Nov 18, 7:49 pm, ChessFire <onech...@comcast.net> wrote
> 7 ...
> 7 I said it is weird when blokes don't have
> 7 any sexual relations, Morphy same as
> 7 Fischer, and this is psychologically
> 7 interesting, and not prescriptive, but
> 7 certainly interesting.
> 7 ...
> _
> _
> I have not seen you present evidence that
> Morphy had no sexual relations.
I have not seen you say how to prove a negative, even with 'evidence'
which would be what in this instance?
In fact I have not seen you say what your own point in writing is,
unless that is same as above. I have seen you dive and duck from the
circumstance of Morphy's behavior, and then ignore your own
predictions by stating that you yourself never said how you yourself
actually behave.
Then you merrily confute what you said with how you behave.
You ignore all points to do with your own orientation and continue to
pursue any unstated idea of your own as if not coming to the point
proves something, or disproves something else.
<shrug>
PI
ChessFire
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:49:24 -0800 (PST), ChessFire
>
> >I said it is weird when blokes don't have any sexual relations, Morphy
> >same as Fischer, and this is psychologically interesting, and not
> >prescriptive, but certainly interesting.
>
> Before casting such aspersions, Phil, just ask yourself a question:
> what would Jesus say ?
He would be audited by blokes in the C4th who where careful to
describe the Magdalene as a whore, but was she?
That is the necessary thing you should account for Murray, as Kingston
might question straight stuff from the KGB.
Get it?
There is someone interpreting who pretends not to interpret or edit or
excise.
As to yourself, blokes of 30 with only suggested sexual activities are
what? Late developers, maybe gay, maybe performing for the public.
Wlod has written well here on these things. Attend to what he says to
engage a conversation, or be content with your own point of view which
include your own attitude
you note you say 'aspersions' like 'none/Stan' who thinks gays are
dirty sorts of blokes. Do you think so? Why is being cast as gay to
asperse upon someone in age? /You/ used the term, so will you explain
your meaning?
Phil Innes
Mike Murray
<onec...@comcast.net> wrote:
Said Phil:
>> >I said it is weird when blokes don't have any sexual relations,
Now says Phil:
> Why is being cast as gay to
>asperse upon someone in age? /You/ used the term, so will you explain
>your meaning?
It isn't. But being cast as "weird" seems to be "aspersive".
You were "aspersing" when you used the term "weird".
Phil, you gotta be consistent in articulating your prejudices.
Taylor Kingston
Sorry, Wlod, but I don't follow you. There is no double standard
involved here. My opinion has some supporting evidence, yours so far
does not. Your whole line of argument has been to describe general
possibilities, e.g. gay men who marry, and then assume or insist
without evidence that Fischer fits that type. This is not good logic.
Murray and I have cited several documented instances of normal
heterosexual behavior by Fischer. These were not abstract
possibilities, they were *_things he actually /did/_*, up to and
including actual coitus. You have cited no instances of homosexual
behavior by Fischer. The evidence is simply not supporting your
hypothesis, and no amount of convoluted speculation, special pleading
or idiosyncratic interpretation can compensate for that.
My opinion is not set in stone. Present real evidence, and I'm open
to changing my mind. In fairness, though, you might consider taking
the evidence Murray and I have presented at face value, rather than
contriving implausible excuses to turn it upside down.
Why you're acting like Innes on this matter puzzles me. You're
normally one of our more matter-of-fact, feet-on-the-ground guys, not
give to bizarre flights of fancy.
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
>
> Over the years, various news accounts described Fischer closeting
> himself away for long periods of time with his chess books AND copies
> of Playboy (never read any mention of Playgirl).
I completely forgot about this trivia item.
Trivia or not but it is significant for this
thread, enough to make me withdraw my "Fischer
as a repressed homosexual" conjecture. I know
only relatively few facts about Fischer in the
erotic context, so that this Playboy item makes
a big difference. It does because in this case
Fischer acts completely on his own, in an
isolation, without any social context.
> And he mentioned to the bible thumpers that he
> wanted to meet big breasted girls like the
> ones in Playboy -- and they evidently introduced
> him to more than one.
To what extent is it true? Was he just teasing them
(giving them hard time) or was Fischer serious?
It'd be sad if Fischer felt that he needed some
religious con artists to provide him with sex.
This is all weird and ironic. A famous, young,
financially secure, good looking guy asking some
lowlifes to act as pimps for him. But then we
(amateur psychologists) know that Fischer was
handicapped in a psychiatric sense.
> Heh, heh. Wlod, you better get vaccinated
> for Innesitis. It's going around and gives
> you bigger headaches than swine flu.
Oh, stop it--I hardly got out of one flu
only to catch another it seems.
Thank you, regards,
Wlod
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
wrote:
> On Nov 19, 5:57 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
> Murray and I have cited several documented instances of normal
> heterosexual behavior by Fischer.
Indeed, finally Mike Muurray's Playboy issues (:-)
have impressed me enough to give up on claiming
that poor Bobby was (most probably) a gay inside himself.
He was somewhat a mysogynist, and plenty nuts, but
otherwise I agree now that most likely he was
"straight".
Thank you, regards,
Wlod
William Hyde
wrote:
I've just thought of another collapse, which I cite more for amusement
than for serious comparison.
In the Canadian open of 1980, a middle-aged C player went something
like 4/5 in the first half of the event. This included beating
masters, and in no game did he use more than half an hour of his
time. In the rest of the event he got something like one point,
losing even to fellow C players. I had the best tournament of my life
to that point, and I think we got the same score.
CGM Berry was one of those he played, and Berry found the game worthy
of annotation in En Passant. At this point I can't recall if Berry
was the one who stopped the C player's streak, or was another
victim. But it was a competitive game.
William Hyde
Mike Murray
Appears you have a natural immunity to Innesitis. :-)
Louis Blair
7 ...
7 I said it is weird when blokes don't have
7 any sexual relations, Morphy same as
7 Fischer, and this is psychologically
7 interesting, and not prescriptive, but
7 certainly interesting.
7 ...
_
7 ...
7 I have not seen you present evidence that
7 Morphy had no sexual relations.
_
_
On Nov 19, 5:19 pm, ChessFire <onec...@comcast.net> wrote
7 ...
7 I have not seen you say how to prove
7 a negative,
_
_
You are the one raising the issue of
"prov"ing a negative. I see no reason
why I should be obliged to take up that
subject.
_
_
On Nov 19, 5:19 pm, ChessFire <onec...@comcast.net> wrote
7 even with 'evidence' which would be
7 what in this instance?
_
_
If you have difficulty with the concept of
evidence, I suggest that you try to find
books on the subject.
_
_
On Nov 19, 5:19 pm, ChessFire <onec...@comcast.net> wrote
7 In fact I have not seen you say what
7 your own point in writing is, unless
7 that is same as above.
_
_
My point is indeed the absence of
provided evidence for some of the
ideas that you have mentioned.
_
_
On Nov 19, 5:19 pm, ChessFire <onec...@comcast.net> wrote
7 I have seen you dive and duck from
7 the circumstance of Morphy's behavior,
7 and then ignore your own predictions by
7 stating that you yourself never said how
7 you yourself actually behave.
7
7 Then you merrily confute what you said
7 with how you behave.
7
7 You ignore all points to do with your own
7 orientation
_
_
You provide no examples and I can not
guess what you are talking about.
_
_
On Nov 19, 5:19 pm, ChessFire <onec...@comcast.net> wrote
7 and continue to pursue any unstated
7 idea of your own
_
_
I am not pursuing an unstated idea.
_
_
On Nov 19, 5:19 pm, ChessFire <onec...@comcast.net> wrote
7 as if not coming to the point proves
7 something, or disproves something
7 else.
7
7 <shrug>
_
_
I am not seeking to prove or disprove
something.
Taylor Kingston
Soltis' "Book of Chess Lists" (2nd edition, 2002), has a section
called "Seven Tournament Collapses" on pages 77-81. Oddly, it does not
include Pillsbury at all. Soltis gives:
Zukertort at London 1883: lost his last three games after starting
22-1.
Von Bardeleben at Hastings 1895: started 7½-1½, in 1st place after
nine rounds, then went 4-8 (starting with a famous loss to Steinitz)
to finish =7th-8th of 22.
Janowski at Paris 1900: started 7-1, then went 2-6 to finish
=10-11th of 20.
Bogolyubov at Goteborg 1920: started 7-2, then went 1-3 to finish
3rd of 14.
Paulino Frydman at Bad Podebrady 1936: started 8-1, then suffered a
nervous breakdown and scored 1½-6½ the rest of the way.
Ljuobjevic at the 1973 Petropolis Interzonal: started 7½-2½, then
went 1½-5½ to finish =9th.
Karpov at Rotterdam 1989: started 9½-2½, then went 0-3 for the first
time in his career, a losing streak that cost him about $30,000 in
prize money.
The omission of Pillsbury here is typical of Soltis' inadequate
research in this book; certainly his collapse at St. Petersburg was as
great or greater than anything here. I don't think Zukertort,
Bogolyubov and Karpov belong at all — they still managed plus scores
and high places; heck, Zukertort still took 1st at London 1883.
Taylor Kingston
Now if we could just find Morphy's cache of French postcards,
amassed while he was in Paris, we could wrap up that case too! ;-)
world chess federation
<sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If one is seeking closet gays among
> the strongest chess players, then
> Fischer would be the strongest candidate.
>
> Wlod
Capablanca having 70 different women to his room during the 73 days of
the Capablanca-Alekhine title match should qualify one would think
Taylor Kingston
On what evidence do you base this assertion? Was there a
surveillance camera, or was a clerk posted in Capablanca's room to
keep count of the women visiting there? And assuming Capa did have 70
women in 73 days, how would this make him a "closet gay"? Rather the
opposite, one would think.
Also, not to quibble, but AFAIK the 1927 match lasted 75 days, not
73: 16 September through 29 November.
David Ames
>
> I went to grade school with Cynthia Nixon for five years.
What about Julie Nixon? The one they named "Carrots Julie N." after?
David Ames
Matt Nemmers
>
>
>
>
>
> > BARBRA AND BOBBY
>
> > Apparently Barbra Streisand also attended Erasmus Hall in Brooklyn and
> > had a crush on Bobby. "I was this absolute misfit, a real outsider,"
> > she later conceded. She did not attend either her junior or senior
> > prom and was never asked for a date. There was another loner in the
> > class behind hers, a chess champion, who also seemed in a world of his
> > own. He wore a hat with leaflets and laughed hysterically as he read
> > MAD magazine. Every day she had lunch with Bobby "and I found him very
> > sexy," she said.
>
> > THIS CRAZY WORLD OF CHESS (revised edition) by GM Larry Evans
>
> > The Historian wrote:
> > > On Nov 17, 9:38 am, Taylor Kingston <taylor.kings...@comcast.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Nov 17, 9:14 am, ChessFire <onech...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Nov 14, 1:19 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> > > > > <sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > If one is seeking closet gays among
> > > > > > the strongest chess players, then
> > > > > > Fischer would be the strongest candidate.
>
> > > > > > Wlod
>
>
> > > > Amazing that Phil is still clinging to this notion after the facts
> > > > and testimony we've presented here about Fischer's obvious
> > > > heterosexuality, both in his teens and later.
>
> > > Speaking of which, this is probably a Fischer myth, but wasn't there a
> > > rumor of Bobby having a crush on a young woman in his high school?
> > > Someone named Streisand? I read this in The More Than Complete Chess
> > > Addict, and while it's a dubious source, it's probably less so than
> > > anything Innes pulls from his.... you know.
>
> > > > In any event, developmental psychologists know that what might be
> > > > called a homosexual phase ("Girls have cooties!") is quite normal for
> > > > boys around the time of adolescence. However, this is hardly the same
> > > > thing as being a "closet gay."
>
> > > > > Psychologists sniff at the idea
> > > > > of being asexual,
>
> > > > They also sniff at holding fast to beliefs that are clearly
> > > > contradicted by factual evidence.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I went to grade school with Cynthia Nixon for five years. Sat
> directly across from her for two. Most New York City schools have
> some public figures who graduate.
>
> Not surprising Barbra would be into brains.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Did you actually graduate from elementary school or did that turn out
like all the other schools you've "attended"?
madams
>
> On Nov 17, 9:14 am, ChessFire <onech...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > On Nov 14, 1:19 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
> >
> > <sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > If one is seeking closet gays among
> > > the strongest chess players, then
> > > Fischer would be the strongest candidate.
> >
> > > Wlod
> >
> > And probably true early in his life.
>
> Amazing that Phil is still clinging to this notion after the facts
> and testimony we've presented here about Fischer's obvious
> heterosexuality, both in his teens and later.
> called a homosexual phase ("Girls have cooties!") is quite normal for
> boys around the time of adolescence. However, this is hardly the same
> thing as being a "closet gay."
>
> > Psychologists sniff at the idea
> > of being asexual,
>
> They also sniff at holding fast to beliefs that are clearly
> contradicted by factual evidence.
-------
Spotted Hyena
The Spotted Hyena is a moderately large, terrestrial carnivore native to
Africa.The family structure of the female Spotted Hyena is matriarchal,
and dominance relationships with strong sexual elements are routinely
observed between related females. Due largely to the female spotted
hyena's unique urogenital system, which looks more like a penis than a
vagina, early naturalists thought hyenas were hermaphroditic males who
commonly practiced homosexuality.[62] Early writings such as Ovid's
Metamorphoses and the Physiologus suggested that the hyena continually
changed its sex and nature from male to female and back again. In
Paedagogus, Clement of Alexandria noted that the hyena (along with the
hare) was "quite obsessed with sexual intercourse." Many Europeans
associated the hyena with sexual deformity, prostitution, deviant sexual
behavior, and even witchcraft.
The reality behind the confusing reports is the sexually aggressive
behavior between the females, including mounting between females.
Research has shown that "in contrast to most other female mammals,
female Crocuta are male-like in appearance, larger than males, and
substantially more aggressive,"[63] and they have "been masculinized
without being defeminized.�[62]
Study of this unique genitalia and aggressive behavior in the female
hyena has led to the understanding that more aggressive females are
better able to compete for resources, including food and mating
partners.[62][64] Research has shown that "elevated levels of
testosterone in utero"[65] contribute to extra aggressiveness; both
males and females mount members of the same sex,[65][66] who in turn are
possibly acting more submissive because of lower levels of testosterone
in utero.[63]
Wiki. <sniff>
m.
The Historian
wrote:
> On Nov 20, 7:55 pm, world chess federation
>
> <wcfworldchesschamp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 13, 10:19 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> > <sennaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > If one is seeking closet gays among
> > > the strongest chess players, then
> > > Fischer would be the strongest candidate.
>
> > > Wlod
>
> > Capablanca having 70 different women to his room during the 73 days of
> > the Capablanca-Alekhine title match should qualify one would think
>
> On what evidence do you base this assertion? Was there a
> surveillance camera, or was a clerk posted in Capablanca's room to
> keep count of the women visiting there?
Taylor, you must be replying to Frederick Edge! He's blackmailing
Capa!
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
wrote:
> On Nov 20, 7:55 pm, world chess federation
>
>
> > the Capablanca-Alekhine title match should qualify one would think
>
> On what evidence do you base this assertion?
Taylor,
wcf was not basing his assertion (:-),
he was only craving your attention.
Regards,
Wlod
None
>
> - Show quoted text -
Taylor doesn't have spots, he changed them <snarf>
madams
.
> Taylor doesn't have spots, he changed them <snarf>
Tigres have stripes... y'know ?
Anyhows, he doesn't fit the investigative/embedded "gutterslut" profile,
if you know whatta mean ? ..................
m.
madams
>
> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:26:58 -0800 (PST), ChessFire
> <onec...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Said Phil:
>
> >> >I said it is weird when blokes don't have any sexual relations,
>
> Now says Phil:
>
> > Why is being cast as gay to
> >asperse upon someone in age? /You/ used the term, so will you explain
> >your meaning?
>
> It isn't. But being cast as "weird" seems to be "aspersive".
> You were "aspersing" when you used the term "weird".
Quite ! & it seems to me this whole Morphy "beatup" (we might leave
Fischer out of the equation as Wlod has since repented his silliness)
has much to do with the mediocre's curiosity of the exceptional - where
it falls apart is in it's sordid approach which suggests (to me) the
enquiry is base (ie.. grounded in jealousy & envy.) but then "we" are
dealing with the "mediocre"...
I mean, it's like this Mr Average/Mr Pillar-Of-Society should set his
soapbox & DEMAND to know all intimacies of the "weirdo" (who just
happens to be light-years ahead of him @ his chosen obsession) to the
satisfaction of his own sense of what is right & normal & by extension
all that is proper & good for society .................................
I wonder if some of these "uprights" would care to expand 'publically'
on their own sexual proclivities ? We might start right @ the beginning
& with simple lead-in questions like; "do you remember when it was you
first masturbated" ? that sort of thing ... eh ?
.............................................................................
m.