Re: Where did Vera Menchik die?
Nick
> Nick wrote:
> > Phil Innes ('Chess One') wrote (to 'Barbara Villiers'):
> > > (snipped for space)
> > > Since you live in North London, do you know about the first
> > > woman there to 'break the bubble' and gain entry to the
> > > 'master chess' of the time - Menchik in the thirties?
> > >
> > > My mother was stationed in North London, just a few miles
> > > away from her house, and where Vera, her mother and sister,
> > > died as result of a V-bomb. ...
> >
> > According to published sources, Vera Menchik Stevenson and
> > her mother and her sister were killed when a German V-1
> > hit *their house in Kent*, which is *not* 'just a few miles
> > away' (as Phil Innes claims) from anywhere in North London.
> >
> > Here's a ChessBase article about Vera Menchik:
> > http://www.chessbase.com/columns/column.asp?pid=104
> >
> > "...her untimely death in 1944 when a German V-1 rocket
> > hit her Kent house..."
> > --ChessBase column
That ChessBase column was written by John Henderson
(who also writes a chess column for 'The Scotsman').
> Perhaps this is not as clear-cut as we had hoped.
> Here's something allegedly from the BCM that I found online:
>
> 'A V1 rocket fell on a house in Gauden Road, Clapham, London,
> that was the residence of Russian-born Vera Menchik, her
> younger sister and their mother. The trio were sheltering
> in the cellar, as they usually did during the Nazi air raids
> on London. The house was completely destroyed. The air-raid
> shelter in the garden was all that was left.'
> (BCM tribute, August 1994)
Thanks to Neil Brennen for the new information.
I had not been aware that there was any dispute
about the place of Vera Menchik's death.
> While it appears Mr. Stevenson had some connection to Kent,
http://www.bcmchess.co.uk/britbase/arch30.htm
Rufus Henry Streatfeild Stevenson (1878-1943) 'was Kent
County Champion in 1919'. 'Stevenson married Vera Menchik
in 1937, at which time he was the Kent County Hon. Sec,
having previously been the match captain. He later became
the BCF Hon. Sec.'
RHS Stevenson died before his wife, Vera Menchik, did.
I suppose that Mrs Stevenson would have inherited her
late husband's property (probably including a house)
in Kent.
> it's not clear from online sources that Mrs. Stevenson
> died there.
In the ChessBase column that I cited earlier, John Henderson
wrote: "...before her (Vera Menchik's) untimely death in 1944,
when a German V-1 rocket *hit her Kent house*; also killing
in the process her sister, Olga ... and their mother."
So it's clear enough that John Henderson places Vera
Menchik's death in Kent. But it's possible that John
Henderson may have been misinformed.
> Does anyone have access to the BCM and CHESS
> from 1944, or the London or Kent newspapers?
> Let's resolve this matter.
As far as I can tell, there are more British readers
of RGCM than of RGCP, so perhaps this question should
also be cross-posted to rec.games.chess.misc.
--Nick
Spam Scone
So much of what passes for chess history are simply urban legends that
get circulated from book to book. John Henderson would not be the first
to fall into that practice.
David Richerby
> (I've probably broken the threading, here. I tried to make this appear
> as a followup to Spam Scone's post by diddling with the References:
> header but it looked a bit mangled to start with. Let's see what
> happens...)
Yep, I've completely mangled it. Sorry about that, folks.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Accelerated Chicken (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a farm animal but it's twice as fast!
David Richerby
a followup to Spam Scone's post by diddling with the References: header
but it looked a bit mangled to start with. Let's see what happens...)
Spam Scone wrote:
> Nick wrote:
>> Phil Innes ('Chess One') wrote (to 'Barbara Villiers'):
>>> Since you live in North London, do you know about the first
>>> woman there to 'break the bubble' and gain entry to the
>>> 'master chess' of the time - Menchik in the thirties?
>>>
>>> My mother was stationed in North London, just a few miles
>>> away from her house, and where Vera, her mother and sister,
>>> died as result of a V-bomb. ...
>>
>> According to published sources, Vera Menchik Stevenson and
>> her mother and her sister were killed when a German V-1
>> hit *their house in Kent*, which is *not* 'just a few miles
>> away' (as Phil Innes claims) from anywhere in North London.
Actually, at that time, the constituent parts of what are now Greater
London were parts of the surounding counties. (I believe this continued
until 1972, though I may be wrong.) Blackheath (south-east London) was
part of Kent and is about fifteen miles from a variety of places that can
reasonably be described as North London -- places as far out as Golders
Green, Wood Green, Walthamstow and what have you.
> 'A V1 rocket fell on a house in Gauden Road, Clapham, London, that was
> the residence of Russian-born Vera Menchik, her younger sister and their
> mother. The trio were sheltering in the cellar, as they usually did
> during the Nazi air raids on London. The house was completely
> destroyed. The air-raid shelter in the garden was all that was left.'
> (BCM tribute, August 1994)
Clapham would have been in Surrey at this time and is also within about
fifteen miles of all the places I mentioned above.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Flammable Monk (TM): it's like a man
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ of God but it burns really easily!
Hans Jørgen Lassen
Vera Menchik died? Or did I entirely miss the point of this discussion?
Where to does one send contributions?
HansJ
chapman Billy
>>>According to published sources, Vera Menchik Stevenson and
>>>her mother and her sister were killed when a German V-1
>>>hit *their house in Kent*, which is *not* 'just a few miles
>>>away' (as Phil Innes claims) from anywhere in North London.
>
>
> Actually, at that time, the constituent parts of what are now Greater
> London were parts of the surounding counties. (I believe this continued
> until 1972, though I may be wrong.)
Sir Keith Joseph the author of this less than divine comedy to reform
local government now reposes with Ruggieri the Archbishop. :-)
A friend of mine from Middlesborough insists he's a Yorkshireman, :-)
then there's the "County" of Avon: but the ultimate crime which
condemned Sir Keith, who was aka as the "mad monk of monetarism", to the
Inferno for all time was his decision to "abolish" the ancient shire of
Middlesex. :-)
Blackheath (south-east London) was
> part of Kent and is about fifteen miles from a variety of places that can
> reasonably be described as North London -- places as far out as Golders
> Green, Wood Green, Walthamstow and what have you.
As a Londoner I still consider Blackheath to be in Kent, "Blackheath,
Kent" was part of the address I used as a club secretary when posting to
members from that area. It was also part of the address supplied by said
members.
>>'A V1 rocket fell on a house in Gauden Road, Clapham, London, that was
>>the residence of Russian-born Vera Menchik, her younger sister and their
>>mother. The trio were sheltering in the cellar, as they usually did
>>during the Nazi air raids on London. The house was completely
>>destroyed. The air-raid shelter in the garden was all that was left.'
>>(BCM tribute, August 1994)
>
>
> Clapham would have been in Surrey at this time and is also within about
> fifteen miles of all the places I mentioned above.
I'm sure that David Richerby knows that Clapham was and is an important
railway junction. It would have been relatively straightforward, wartime
conditions permitting, to travel to Chiswick which would probably have
been where West London Chess Club met: Vera Menchik was definitely a
member of that club, along with Sir George Thomas; they have a notice,
or at least they used to, to that effect.
The local library should have facilities for accessing the records of
the local newspaper of that time, which ought to be near definitive, she
would almost certainly have warranted a mention. I generally avoid
"Sarth" London, but if I'm around there sometime in the future I might
just 'ave a peek, it should be less than a pony to find out. ;-)
Regards,
Simon.
--
Excise Burns and his dates to email me.
Chess One
"Hans Jørgen Lassen" <hj.l...@privat.dk> wrote in message
news:421a1294$0$93935$edfa...@dread14.news.tele.dk...
Dear Hands,
We have not yet agreed where to put the memorial or in what form it should
take. My suggestion of an uropygium has not been well received, and I am
consequently in disgrace :(
There appears to be no urgency to resolve these vacuities. At some point in
the committee discussion we seemed to have reflected that the deceased
person by some means unknown to man committed wins against men.
It is my understanding that criminologists around the world completely
ignored these circumstances, as possibly a roman a clef, until Robert
Johannsen Fischer [new name no?] unwisely spoke of women's ineptitude at
chess. And even wise people in the professions 'slung their hook' with BJ,
and for a while we men rested secure in that way we have of enjoying what is
utterly false, trite and palpably unlikely to be real [except in the lexicon
of psychiatrists, who both assure us that it /is/ real to us, but by other
implication of their attitude, that one is a complete sicko! And this in my
opinion is a form of getting money and generally war-profiteering from us
sickos!]
Anyway, all we men all indulged in these superior feelings, and looked at
it, not.
Since that time both RJ and WE has been proven wrong, as indeed, as have so
many grandmasters who were, outside the game, generally clueless to the life
of their times on such a vast range of subjects they are almost impossible
to Liszt.
And on this musical exit, I am at present writing a fugue inspired by these
histories, and regret not making a more fulsome response to concerned
individuals of the fish-eating Nations of Northern Europe.
Corfu! Phil
Taylor Kingston
Chess One wrote:
> My suggestion of an uropygium has not been well received, and I am
> consequently in disgrace :(
Uropygium: "That part of the termination of a bird's body that
supports the tail feathers." - The New Lexicon Webster's Dictionary.
In view of recent discoveries in theropod paleontology and
totalitarian metaphysics, I can well understand the committee's
decision. Occam's Razor is unrevealing in such cases; only Gallagher's
Sledge-o-matic produces useful results.
Spam Scone
Taylor Kingston wrote:
> Chess One wrote:
> > My suggestion of an uropygium has not been well received, and I am
> > consequently in disgrace :(
>
> Uropygium: "That part of the termination of a bird's body that
> supports the tail feathers." - The New Lexicon Webster's Dictionary.
"Every rooster has an Innes. It's right under the tailfeathers." -
Gogol
Chess One
"Taylor Kingston" <tkin...@chittenden.com> wrote in message
news:1109036002.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Chess One wrote:
>> My suggestion of an uropygium has not been well received, and I am
>> consequently in disgrace :(
>
> Uropygium: "That part of the termination of a bird's body that
> supports the tail feathers." - The New Lexicon Webster's Dictionary.
>
> In view of recent discoveries in theropod paleontology and
> totalitarian metaphysics, I can well understand the committee's
> decision.
It was indeed our reflection on our mutual worth in addressing the issue. I
note a fellow committee member has 'chipped in' with his 'own' brilliancy,
and thus, as you see, our club is very restricted in ideas. Of course, if he
is your personal friend and highly valued, even as ballast, the barky can
acquire another...
> Occam's Razor is unrevealing in such cases; only Gallagher's
> Sledge-o-matic produces useful results.
I see now that I should have said, since the term "to make a duck's arse
of..." is apparantly not any trope in the Americas, and needs explanation:
Of al men they do most evyl,
Here lorefadyr ys the devyl.
Fyl
Nick
> Spam Scone wrote:
> > Nick wrote:
> >> Phil Innes ('Chess One') wrote (to 'Barbara Villiers'):
> >>> Since you live in North London, do you know about the first
> >>> woman there to 'break the bubble' and gain entry to the
> >>> 'master chess' of the time - Menchik in the thirties?
> >>>
> >>> My mother was stationed in North London, just a few miles
> >>> away from her house, and where Vera, her mother and sister,
> >>> died as result of a V-bomb. ...
> >>
> >> According to published sources, Vera Menchik Stevenson and
> >> her mother and her sister were killed when a German V-1
> >> hit *their house in Kent*, which is *not* 'just a few miles
> >> away' (as Phil Innes claims) from anywhere in North London.
>
> Actually, at that time, the constituent parts of what are now
> Greater London were parts of the surounding counties.
> (I believe this continued until 1972, though I may be wrong.)
Thanks to David Richerby for his contribution.
When I read John Henderson's column for ChessBase (which placed
Vera Menchik's death in Kent), I assumed (whether correctly or not)
that John Henderson was referring to Kent in a contemporary context,
*not* in a historical 1944 context. Given that John Henderson was
writing for an international audience and most readers at ChessBase
should not have been expected to know anything about the historical
changes in England's internal borders, I believed that it was
reasonable to assume that John Henderson was referring to Kent
in a contemporary context. If John Henderson had intended to
refer to Kent in a historical 1944 context, then he should have
added such a note of explanation.
> Blackheath (south-east London) was part of Kent and is about
> fifteen miles from a variety of places that can reasonably be
> described as North London -- places as far out as Golders
> Green, Wood Green, Walthamstow and what have you.
Phil Innes's original statement (above) referred to a place in
North London being 'just a few miles away from her house', which
I had been led (by John Henderson) to believe was in Kent.
On some occasions I have said something like "I'm going out to
walk for just a few miles", and on those occasions I never have
walked as far as 'about fifteen miles'. I *could* have walked
'about fifteen miles', but then I would *not* have described
it as 'just a few miles'.
> > 'A V1 rocket fell on a house in Gauden Road, Clapham, London,
> > that was the residence of Russian-born Vera Menchik, her younger
> > sister and their mother. The trio were sheltering in the cellar,
> > as they usually did during the Nazi air raids on London.
> > The house was completely destroyed. The air-raid shelter in the
> > garden was all that was left.' (BCM tribute, August 1994)
The V-1 had quite a reputation for inaccuracy, often landing nearly
at random. As long as the distinctive noise (or 'acoustical
signature')
of the V-1's pulsejet engine could be heard, one felt safe enough
because that showed that the V-1 was still airborne. But once that
noise suddenly stopped, it was time to take cover.
> Clapham would have been in Surrey at this time and is also within
> about fifteen miles of all the places I mentioned above.
In rec.games.chess.politics, Phil Innes ('Chess One') wrote (sic):
"Travelling London to the Kent countryside every day would also be
difficult since there were no private cars or public buses or hardly
any gasoline, the railyards bombed beyond recognition."
To comment on only one part of Phil Innes's statement (above),
it seems far from true that by 1944 (when Vera Menchik died)
that 'the railyards (were still) bombed beyond recognition'.
The Allies enjoyed air supremacy over the skies of England.
All that the Luftwaffe bombers could do were some nuisance
raids at night against 'area targets' (such as entire cities,
not specific 'railyards').
*If* it had been true (as Phil Innes has claimed) that the British
'railyards (were still) bombed beyond recognition', then how could
the vast build-up of resources to support the Allied landings in
France on 6 June 1944 (D-Day) have been achieved in time?
--Nick
David Richerby
> When I read John Henderson's column for ChessBase (which placed
> Vera Menchik's death in Kent), I assumed (whether correctly or not)
> that John Henderson was referring to Kent in a contemporary context,
> *not* in a historical 1944 context. Given that John Henderson was
> writing for an international audience and most readers at ChessBase
> should not have been expected to know anything about the historical
> changes in England's internal borders, I believed that it was
> reasonable to assume that John Henderson was referring to Kent
> in a contemporary context. If John Henderson had intended to
> refer to Kent in a historical 1944 context, then he should have
> added such a note of explanation.
This is true. Perhaps he just saw that the address ended `Kent' so
said `Kent', not realising that the borders had changed. That's pure
speculation, of course.
>> Blackheath (south-east London) was part of Kent and is about
>> fifteen miles from a variety of places that can reasonably be
>> described as North London -- places as far out as Golders
>> Green, Wood Green, Walthamstow and what have you.
>
> Phil Innes's original statement (above) referred to a place in
> North London being 'just a few miles away from her house', which
> I had been led (by John Henderson) to believe was in Kent.
>
> On some occasions I have said something like "I'm going out to
> walk for just a few miles", and on those occasions I never have
> walked as far as 'about fifteen miles'. I *could* have walked
> 'about fifteen miles', but then I would *not* have described
> it as 'just a few miles'.
Sure. I used Blackheath as an example because that's the closest place
to central London that I know for sure used to be in Kent. There are
probably better examples.
> The V-1 had quite a reputation for inaccuracy, often landing nearly
> at random.
They were targeted by being pointed in a particular direction and given
enough fuel to fly x miles. They only hit London at all because it's
such a big place.
Dave.
--
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Don't buy anything from experts who won't debate on a free speech forum.
"David Richerby" <dav...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:kbo*jf...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
BarbaraVilliers
got London and Coventry but much elsewhere was left undamaged. Hermann
Goering said that the Peenemunde developements of these weapons had
helped alter the course of the war as had he the aircrafts rather then
these expensive fireworks as he viewed them he felt that the Luftwaffe
would have put up a far better show against our allied airforces.
BarbaraVilliers
David Richerby
> Those V-1s were very unreliable fortunately for us British people. They
> got London and Coventry but much elsewhere was left undamaged.
Coventry was destroyed in November 1940 by bombs dropped from planes, the
old-fashioned way. The V1s didn't come onto the scene until June 1944 and
their range of 150 miles meant they could only reach London and the south-
east of England. I don't think the V2's range was significantly greater.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Mentholated Shack (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a house in the woods but it's
invigorating!
Taylor Kingston
BarbaraVilliers wrote:
> Goering said that the Peenemunde developements of these weapons had
> helped alter the course of the war as had he the aircrafts rather
then
> these expensive fireworks as he viewed them he felt that the
Luftwaffe
> would have put up a far better show against our allied airforces.
Goering was always looking for excuses to explain away his own
incompetence. Probably the best way for him to help the Luftwaffe put
up a far better show in 1940 would have been to fly off in one of his
own planes and get shot down by the RAF. Goering and Hitler were well
matched as military strategists. We can be glad that they were in
charge, rather than some of the more competent German generals.
BarbaraVilliers
plans he was greatly hampered by Hitler who preferred Himmler's and
Bormann's advice. These two did a successsful job of poisoning Hitler's
mind against Goering and many of his idea were dismissed in favour of
other members of the Nazi regime
BarbaraVilliers
Taylor Kingston
BarbaraVilliers wrote:
> Goering was an ace pilot in World War I. Regarding German Military
> plans he was greatly hampered by Hitler who preferred Himmler's and
> Bormann's advice.
I am aware of Goering's WW I record and agree that he was a good
fighter pilot. However, my earlier post referred to his conduct of the
air war against Britain in 1940, as commander of the Luftwaffe. This is
generally considered well below optimal by the historians I've read:
Churchill, Keegan, Shirer, Mosley et al. A representative quote is this
from Keegan's "The Second World War" (Viking, 1989), page 94:
"Nevertheless the Luftwaffe might have established the air
superiority ... had it operated from the outset by the same sort of
coldly logical plan by which the German army had attacked France in
1940. On the contrary, it had no considered strategy ... and fought
Fighter Command instead by a series of improvisations, all posited on
Goering's arrogant belief that Britain could be brought 'down on
its knees' by any simulacrum of a 'hard blow' that he directed
against it."
I don't recall any historian who ascribes any significant role to
Bormann or Himmler in the Battle of Britain. Responsibility for German
mistakes there is generally considered to rest chiefly with Goering, as
far as I know.
Taylor Kingston
Dr A. N. Walker
David Richerby <dav...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> The V-1 had quite a reputation for inaccuracy, often landing nearly
>> at random.
>They were targeted by being pointed in a particular direction and given
>enough fuel to fly x miles. They only hit London at all because it's
>such a big place.
Many of them missed, thanks to a successful dis-information
campaign. The govt arranged for many/most of the strikes in S and
E London to go unreported, unlike the ones in N and W London, thus
persuading the Germans that they had been using too much fuel. Takes
skill to do this without distorting the "random" distribution! By
the end of the campaign, the range had been shortened so much that
most of the V1s were falling harmlessly, except to a few cows and
possibly Mrs Stevenson, in the Kent countryside.
--
Andy Walker, School of MathSci., Univ. of Nott'm, UK.
a...@maths.nott.ac.uk
BarbaraVilliers
I have read a few books and as usual with history there are conflicting
views.Goering swiftly fell from high favour with Hitler as Himmler and
Bormann gained political ascendency according to some sources.
Added to which Hitler was obsessed with developments at Peenemunde
which he viewed as weapons that would win the war for Germany. I agree
that Britain was underestimated however. I have always maintained it is
highly dangerous to underestimate an enemy as indeed Hitler and his
regime learned to their detriment.
As I understand it the Fuhrer steadily grew erractic, he constantly
changed his plans and caused severe problems for his generals and
advisors.
Also much manpower was wasted with the running of the concentration
camps and the holocaust.furthermore as you know, fighting on two fronts
is also inadvisable.
BarbaraVilliers
BarbaraVilliers
Taylor Kingston
BarbaraVilliers wrote:
> Goering swiftly fell from high favour with Hitler as Himmler and
> Bormann gained political ascendency according to some sources.
What you describe sounds more like the later years of the war, rather
than 1940. I still don't think Bormann and Himmler had much to do with
the Battle of Britain, but certainly their influence did increase as
time went on.
michael adams
Nonsense! history shows the German nation as losers in two (2) world
conflagrations & third-time (3rd.) lucky is the stuff of fantasy. The
Japanese were fellow xenophobes in the nazi nightmare & got 'done-over'
big-time too..
Taylor Kingston
michael adams wrote:
> Nonsense! history shows the German nation as losers in two (2) world
> conflagrations & third-time (3rd.) lucky is the stuff of fantasy.
Of course ultimately the important thing is: what actually did
happen. However, there were several key points in WW II where different
decisions by Germany could well have produced a very different outcome.
I would suggest "How Hitler Could Have Won World War II" by Bevin
Alexander (Crown Publishers, 2000) as one relevant source. This is
fact-based military history, not sci-fi "alternate reality" stuff like,
say, Harry Turtledove.
> Japanese were fellow xenophobes in the nazi nightmare & got
'done-over'
> big-time too..
I think it's harder to find ways for Japan to have won than for
Germany. Even if, say, the US had lost the Battle of Midway, it seems
likely this would have only delayed final American victory, not
prevented it. There seems to be less literature on alternate scenarios
for Japan than for Germany; one example I have handy is "Our Midway
Disaster" by Theodore F. Cook, jr., from "What If?" (Berkley Books,
1999), a collection of historical essays on everything from Assyria
versus Israel 701 BCE to Mao versus Chiang Kai-Shek 1946.
Taylor Kingston
Mike Murray
<tkin...@chittenden.com> wrote:
>"What If?" (Berkley Books,
>1999), a collection of historical essays on everything from Assyria
>versus Israel 701 BCE to Mao versus Chiang Kai-Shek 1946.
Sounds like a fun read. Since this was available for $2.87 through
Amazon used books, I just took a chance and ordered it.
>
> Taylor Kingston
michael adams
>
> michael adams wrote:
> > Nonsense! history shows the German nation as losers in two (2) world
> > conflagrations & third-time (3rd.) lucky is the stuff of fantasy.
>
> Of course ultimately the important thing is: what actually did
> happen. However, there were several key points in WW II where different
> decisions by Germany could well have produced a very different outcome.
Oh! without doubt, like switching their operations from invading Britain
(how were they going to do this?) to 'campaign' Barbarossa & don't
forget the fluid & agile Supermarine Spitfire! However, I note with
interest the two (2) books mentioned, although 'our midway disaster'
seems a somewhat self-flagellating title to what in effect was a great
American victory. Soon I'll switch on the (tv) to view the final episode
of Stalingrad (documentary series) & I've noted a book on my shelf the
provenance of which is forgotten, simply titled 'Zhukov'..
Taylor Kingston
michael adams wrote:
> Oh! without doubt, like switching their operations from invading
Britain
> (how were they going to do this?) to 'campaign' Barbarossa & don't
> forget the fluid & agile Supermarine Spitfire!
I am second to none in my admiration for the Spitfire and its pilots.
"The Battle of Britain" is one of my favorite movies, with an all-star
cast shooting down lots of Heinkels and Messerschmidts with their Spits
and Hurricanes.
> 'our midway disaster'
> seems a somewhat self-flagellating title to what in effect was a
great
> American victory.
Indeed it was, and like the BOB, the film "Midway" is among my
favorites, with an all-star cast bombing carriers in Wildcats and SBDs.
The "disaster" essay is not an exercise in self-flagellation; the title
refers merely to an alternate scenario in which Admiral Spruance failed
to surprise the Japanese. Fortunately, he did not fail.
Nick
> I am second to none in my admiration for the Spitfire and its pilots.
The Supermarine Spitfire was a great fighter aeroplane or,
more accurately, a great series of fighter aeroplanes.
But the Focke-Wulf Fw-190A was clearly superior (as the RAF admitted)
to the Spitfire Mk V, and the Fw-190A gave the Luftwaffe a qualitative
superiority over the Royal Air Force for about one year (in 1941-42)
until the Spitfire Mk IX (which approached the performance of the
Fw-190A) became operational in significant numbers.
The Martin-Baker MB-5 was perhaps the most advanced
piston-engined fighter built for the Royal Air Force,
yet it never entered mass production.
http://www.martin-baker.com/history_mb5.html
> "The Battle of Britain" is one of my favorite movies, with an
> all-star cast shooting down lots of Heinkels and Messerschmidts
> with their Spits and Hurricanes.
Given his apparent taste for the 'patriotically correct' in film,
Taylor Kingston may enjoy watching the Channel Four television
miniseries 'Spitfire Ace' (if available on US television).
'Spitfire Ace' (produced in 2003, first shown in 2004) is
a 'historical reenactment' programme about a batch of young
pilots who compete for the opportunity to receive nine hours
of flying instruction (as a novice pilot for the RAF in the
Battle of Britain may have received) in a restored vintage
Spitfire--the 'Grace Spitfire' (named to honour its owner).
The late Nick Grace spent five years restoring a wartime
Spitfire to flying condition. After his death in an
accident, the 'Grace Spitfire' was inherited by his widow,
Carolyn Grace, who's currently the only Englishwoman to own
and to fly a Supermarine Spitfire. As the owner of the
'Grace Spitfire', Carolyn Grace made the final decision
on which pilot would be allowed to fly her aeroplane
for 'Spitfire Ace'.
--Nick
chapman Billy
> David Richerby wrote:
>
>>Spam Scone wrote:
>>
>>>Nick wrote:
>>>
>>>>Phil Innes ('Chess One') wrote (to 'Barbara Villiers'):
>>>>
>>>>>Since you live in North London, do you know about the first
>>>>>woman there to 'break the bubble' and gain entry to the
>>>>>'master chess' of the time - Menchik in the thirties?
>>>>>
>>>>>My mother was stationed in North London, just a few miles
>>>>>away from her house, and where Vera, her mother and sister,
>>>>>died as result of a V-bomb. ...
>>>>
>>>>According to published sources, Vera Menchik Stevenson and
>>>>her mother and her sister were killed when a German V-1
>>>>hit *their house in Kent*, which is *not* 'just a few miles
>>>>away' (as Phil Innes claims) from anywhere in North London.
>>
>>Actually, at that time, the constituent parts of what are now
>>Greater London were parts of the surounding counties.
>>(I believe this continued until 1972, though I may be wrong.)
>
>
> Thanks to David Richerby for his contribution.
There is a ambiguity here in that there was a GLC, and before that a
GLCC (Greater London County Council) which overlapped traditional county
boundaries. The GLC was abolished by Mrs T, it's last leader being
Livingstone (nicknamed Leninspart in certain quarters, particularly
during the 1980s, when the Red Flag flew from County Hall), who is the
present elected mayor of London. Perhaps the most notable London leader
was Herbert Morrison (he was also a cabinet minister), who could be
considered the last politician to invest effectively in London's
transport infrastructure. Herbert Morrison enjoyed a reputation as a
ladies man, in marked contrast to his grandson Peter Mandelson ("the
Prince of Darkness"), who is Britain's European Union commissioner.
>
> When I read John Henderson's column for ChessBase (which placed
> Vera Menchik's death in Kent), I assumed (whether correctly or not)
> that John Henderson was referring to Kent in a contemporary context,
> *not* in a historical 1944 context. Given that John Henderson was
> writing for an international audience and most readers at ChessBase
> should not have been expected to know anything about the historical
> changes in England's internal borders, I believed that it was
> reasonable to assume that John Henderson was referring to Kent
> in a contemporary context. If John Henderson had intended to
> refer to Kent in a historical 1944 context, then he should have
> added such a note of explanation.
Most natives, then or now, would consider Kent (the "Garden of England")
as defined by its traditional boundaries. Thus this would include bits
of London. Chess wise, clubs in Kent, in or out of London, would be
expected to affiliate with Kent County Chess Association if they seek
BCF affiliation, although the situation became more complicated
(affiliation through a local league is now enough) when the system of
County Registrations was replaced by the Game Fee Scheme (in something
like 1994, I can't remember the exact date).
>>Blackheath (south-east London) was part of Kent and is about
>>fifteen miles from a variety of places that can reasonably be
>>described as North London -- places as far out as Golders
>>Green, Wood Green, Walthamstow and what have you.
>
>
> Phil Innes's original statement (above) referred to a place in
> North London being 'just a few miles away from her house', which
> I had been led (by John Henderson) to believe was in Kent.
>
> On some occasions I have said something like "I'm going out to
> walk for just a few miles", and on those occasions I never have
> walked as far as 'about fifteen miles'. I *could* have walked
> 'about fifteen miles', but then I would *not* have described
> it as 'just a few miles'.
Few Londoners north of the river would regard anything south of the
Thames as particularly convenient; not even boroughs such as Charlton or
Greenwich. A further point is that not everything north of the Thames
would generally be described as part of North London; e.g. neither the
City, nor the West End would be considered part of North London, whereas
the London borough of Barnet, for instance, would. To get from Barnet to
Clapham say, on public transport, which one must if one wishes to
socialise after a chess match, is a not very pleasant trip on the
Northern Line.
>
>>>'A V1 rocket fell on a house in Gauden Road, Clapham, London,
>>>that was the residence of Russian-born Vera Menchik, her younger
>>>sister and their mother. The trio were sheltering in the cellar,
>>>as they usually did during the Nazi air raids on London.
>>>The house was completely destroyed. The air-raid shelter in the
>>>garden was all that was left.' (BCM tribute, August 1994)
>
>
> The V-1 had quite a reputation for inaccuracy, often landing nearly
> at random. As long as the distinctive noise (or 'acoustical
> signature')
> of the V-1's pulsejet engine could be heard, one felt safe enough
> because that showed that the V-1 was still airborne. But once that
> noise suddenly stopped, it was time to take cover.
There is an article in today's Torygraph on government fears at the
time, see:
These are newly released papers.
>
>
>>Clapham would have been in Surrey at this time and is also within
>>about fifteen miles of all the places I mentioned above.
>
>
> In rec.games.chess.politics, Phil Innes ('Chess One') wrote (sic):
> "Travelling London to the Kent countryside every day would also be
> difficult since there were no private cars or public buses or hardly
> any gasoline, the railyards bombed beyond recognition."
>
> To comment on only one part of Phil Innes's statement (above),
> it seems far from true that by 1944 (when Vera Menchik died)
> that 'the railyards (were still) bombed beyond recognition'.
> The Allies enjoyed air supremacy over the skies of England.
> All that the Luftwaffe bombers could do were some nuisance
> raids at night against 'area targets' (such as entire cities,
> not specific 'railyards').
>
> *If* it had been true (as Phil Innes has claimed) that the British
> 'railyards (were still) bombed beyond recognition', then how could
> the vast build-up of resources to support the Allied landings in
> France on 6 June 1944 (D-Day) have been achieved in time?
>
> --Nick
>
Regards,
Nick
> I am second to none in my admiration for the Spitfire and its pilots.
> "The Battle of Britain" is one of my favorite movies, with an
> all-star cast shooting down lots of Heinkels and Messerschmidts
> with their Spits and Hurricanes.
I doubt that most Royal Air Force fighter pilots (some of whom
had no more than ten hours of flying experience in Spitfires)
set off against the Luftwaffe in the summer and autumn of 1940
by singing 'Land of Hope and Glory'. (Would the Polish and Czech
pilots in the RAF have even known its lyrics?)
"After 1945, patriotism--British national feeling was *not*
straightforwardly conservative but, on the contrary, contained
powerful inflections to the left. Pride in being British implied
the egalitarianism of World War II, the achievement of the welfare
state, and a complex of democratic traditions stressing decency,
liberalism, and the importance of everyone pulling together, in
a way that honoured the value and values of ordinary working people.
More elaborately, it evoked images of the Depression and its social
misery, which a broad consensus believed should never be repeated,
and here the patriotic comradeship of the war was reworked into a
social democratic narrative of suffering and social justice.
The benign qualities of such patriotism can be exaggerated.
The democratic romance of 1945 also contained huge complacencies,
in relation both to Europe, the United States, and 'other countries',
and to themes of empire and race, organized around insiduously
embedded assumptions of Englishness.
...
Thus for a long time after 1945, World War II provided a template
for the popular political imagination. To form the rhetorical
binding of the postwar consensus, it entered British cultural
memory as a narrative of popular democratic accomplishment,
requiring elaborate and extensive dissemination. In that process,
greater material security and rising living standards remained
sutured to the political values of common sacrifice, egalitarianism,
and democratic expectation accompanying the victory over fascism--so
that the subsequent evocations of the 'Dunkirk spirit' were elided
into what Churchill on V-E Day had called simply 'the victory of
the cause of freedom in every land'. But, by the same argument,
any replacement of this consensus by a new and different set of
political claims--the overturning and reconstruction of its
political common sense--would require a new vision of contemporary
British history, which repositioned World War II in popular
understanding."
--Geoff Eley ("Finding the People's War" in
"American Historical Review", June 2001)
--Nick
Taylor Kingston
Nick wrote:
> Taylor Kingston wrote:
> > "The Battle of Britain" is one of my favorite movies,
> I doubt that most Royal Air Force fighter pilots (some of whom
> had no more than ten hours of flying experience in Spitfires)
> set off against the Luftwaffe in the summer and autumn of 1940
> by singing 'Land of Hope and Glory'. (Would the Polish and Czech
> pilots in the RAF have even known its lyrics?)
I rather doubt it too, and I recall no such thing depicted in the
film.
michael adams
>
> Taylor Kingston wrote:
> > I am second to none in my admiration for the Spitfire and its pilots.
> > "The Battle of Britain" is one of my favorite movies, with an
> > all-star cast shooting down lots of Heinkels and Messerschmidts
> > with their Spits and Hurricanes.
>
> I doubt that most Royal Air Force fighter pilots (some of whom
> had no more than ten hours of flying experience in Spitfires)
> set off against the Luftwaffe in the summer and autumn of 1940
> by singing 'Land of Hope and Glory'. (Would the Polish and Czech
> pilots in the RAF have even known its lyrics?)
Yes, they'd probably have been humming the latest Vera Lynn or
whatever..
Interesting link to [Martin Baker] site (btw) - never did hear of this
group before! Good to learn something every day methinks..
(ode to K. Livingstone & others of his ilk snipped in the interest of
staying awake - does anyone actually read this 'orrible, boring, bumpf
anymore?)
>Churchill on V-E Day had called simply 'the victory of
> the cause of freedom in every land'.
k.i.s.s.
<sniz>
Chess One
> Yes, they'd probably have been humming the latest Vera Lynn or
> whatever..
Probably Dietrich, and Lili Marlene in German. Both sides sang the same
song, but Vera was no match for her teutonic equivalent, except possible to
upper-class chaps who might have sung the old Etonian boating song.
Kids on both sides - and they were scarcely adults - took off in these
powerful engines; fought each other for a few hours of vapour-maze in the
skies over southern England before crashing down into it. A desperately
brief ballet.
My aunts tell other stories - of looking East in Cornwall and seeing
Plymouth burning 60 miles up the coast. And dances with soldiers, American
soldiers, some of them black! And being walked home afterwards in the
blackout with these complete strangers, who were rewarded [I believe them!]
sometimes by a peck on the cheek. 'Such gentlemen', the aunts said about Our
Cousins.
They themselves worked in the services or in bomb factories; coils of grey
and pink material overhead, winding down into bomb casings. They were all of
such an age that their previous occupation were 'in service' to local
estates and great houses.
None of them has ever met a chess player :) and look blank at the mention
of Menchik, 'foreign was she?" they ask, as if that might explain things. My
Aunt in Plymouth was bombed out of her house and lived in a 'temporary'
Nissen hut, for 25 years! Now they are a la mode, and smart young things
live in them, and no growling noise comes out of the sky determined to end
their lives.
A local Englishman living here in the States, originally from the north
country, told me a while ago that his first memory was of his own kitchen,
and things rattling in it. The cause of the rattle was bombers passing
overhead. He assumes they were ours not their's. So he told this story to
another local, Klaus, a man exactly his own age, who looked at him a long
time before answering that he wondered if these were the same bombers he
also heard in the sky, and which were definitely not our's over his own
Berlin skies. It was also his first memory. A later one was of Russian
soldiers giving them [kids] potatoes, which they eat raw, since they were
starving.
Cordially, Phil
michael adams
>
> >
> > Yes, they'd probably have been humming the latest Vera Lynn or
> > whatever..
>
> Probably Dietrich, and Lili Marlene in German. Both sides sang the same
> song, but Vera was no match for her teutonic equivalent, except possible to
> upper-class chaps who might have sung the old Etonian boating song.
>
> Kids on both sides - and they were scarcely adults - took off in these
> powerful engines; fought each other for a few hours of vapour-maze in the
> skies over southern England before crashing down into it. A desperately
> brief ballet.
<snip>
Sports-cars in the sky (the planes) is how I see them. Paul Nash did
great paintings of these events..
'gards - Uncle Mick..
Chess One
> great paintings of these events..
>
> 'gards - Uncle Mick..
Mickey, it is more than this. For German boys, and English too. For your
next thrill your life is as stake. Not the idea of it, but the dominating
fear [is it?] of something not yet realised... Maybe contrasted with some
love for a girl, or something to do with being an adult at last, which the
next flight instantly terminates in a paroxysm of unknowing.
The experience of what is unknown, what is unlived, unchallenged, and
un-oneSelf is left only to us as a romance, as in the movies, but to them,
these real people, we who did not experience it, how should we know what was
real for them, except to consult ourselves?
You like to write 'really'. And I like such 'stroin' realism.
But in an equally earthy way, could you do this? I should doubt any reader
here could walk up to and occupy that cockpit.
Phil
michael adams
<sn>
> But in an equally earthy way, could you do this? I should doubt any reader
> here could walk up to and occupy that cockpit.
If I was 18/20 & you trusted your Triton to me, I'd try to get back in
one piece. I envy the birds..
Hans Jørgen Lassen
Vera Menchik died? There must be archives, registers or whatever, and even
people that would remember, although they probably would not be that easy to
trace.
I am sure Nick or one of the other English posters here could find this out
in a day or two. If they were interested, of course.
HansJ