Jakarta jokes (not funny at all)
Don Fong
In article <51hfh3$g...@juniper.cis.uab.edu>,
Robert Hyatt <hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu> wrote:
>Ed Schröder (10065...@CompuServe.COM) wrote:
>: The Junior guys explained us in detail, did you missed their posting
>: or simply decide to ignore it?
>
>Nope I saw it. And as I said when I saw it, *if* it's true, then it's
>an embarassing situation for all of us. If it's *true*, but the truth
>is *larger* then it's another story. It's easy to say "I've been banned
>from participating." Especially if what I really mean is "I've been banned
>from an easy way to participate, and I don't want to try any other approach
>because it's <any reason you want here as I mentioned in my last post>.
Bob, let's review the evidence. Tony Marsland said: ``To cut a
long story short we were unable to get any kind of an invitation for
the Israeli participants, let alone a warm welcome.'' Shay Bushinsky
said: ``We were one of the first teams who wanted to play in these
championships but who soon found it impossible to participate indeed
due to the ICCA mistake not to insist beforehand that the host
country must accept all of the ICCA elected teams.''
if you still doubt the truth of the matter, in the light of
these unambiguous public statements by reputable persons, then it is
incumbent upon you to present some factual basis for your suspicions.
>The former is bad, the latter is misleading. If, for some reason, I don't
>really want to attend, and a plausible reason for not going come up, it's
>easy to use that reason to avoid the event. I'm not saying that this is
>what happened to Junior, because I don't *know* any details yet. However
>some things I've seen and heard lead me to believe that we don't yet know
>everything that's happened, and I'm not changing our long-term plans based
>on rumor and speculation.
Bob, you seem to have confused yourself: Tony Marsland and Shay
Bushinsky have already posted the facts. the "rumors and speculations"
are all your and Bruce Moreland's doing.
>If someone can produce something where the Indonesians have said "Junior can
>not participate because it's from a Jewish country" then I'll happily withdraw.
say, do you also believe that no drug dealers should ever be convicted
unless they sign a confession?
>However, if all that's been said is "due to political reasons (no diplomatic
>relations in this case) the Junior programs can not obtain a VISA from the
>Israeli/Indonesian governments" then that's quite a bit different. I'm not
>into global politics. If two countries don't "speak" that is their business.
>I suspect that except for the US, there are very few countries where you can't
>find several other countries that they don't have diplomatic ties with. If
>the ICCA holds an event in Iraq, I doubt I'd be able to get a VISA, I wouldn't
>be going, but I wouldn't be raising cane about boycotting. Seems to me that's
>my tough luck for living in the US. I do computer chess as a hobby. I'm not
>doing it to make the world a better place, or improve an impoverished nation's
>image or to try to punish a government that surely needs punishing.
Bob, each of us has a duty to make the world a better place.
we are the beneficiaries of such efforts on the part of previous
generations, and we owe it to future generations to do the same.
this is more important than any hobby.
[...]
>: It's very annoying to notice that you are trying to make a joke about this
>: serious subject with your humor (?) about Bruce and you as the only ones
>: in Jakarta.
>
>I didn't particularly mean it as a joke. It is becoming more and more likely
>every day.
Bob, it is not too late to find a site where all can compete.
wouldn't you enjoy that more than 11 rounds of Ferret vs Crafty?
why not join those who are trying to make that happen?
--
--- don fong ``i still want the peace dividend''
--
Ed Schröder
Bob,
To me you already decided to participate in Jakarta and nothing
will change your mind.
Remains the question, why don't you just say so?
To me the letter of Tony Marsland (which I personally know and have a high
opinion about) and the statement of the Junior team was pretty convincing
or am I mistaken?
Suppose "Cock de Gorter" (sorry Cock) would remove all USA participants
from AEGON 1997, you would expect from us that we should boycott AEGON
1997 right? (and we will!)
So does Junior expect from us to boycott Jakarta.
We can't protect the poor Indonesians, this is for Amnesty.
But (IMO) we have the duty to protect our own programmer friends.
Right or wrong?
- Ed Schroder -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Schröder (10065...@CompuServe.COM) wrote:
: Bob,
:
: The Junior guys explained us in detail, did you missed their posting
: or simply decide to ignore it?
:
Nope I saw it. And as I said when I saw it, *if* it's true, then it's
an embarassing situation for all of us. If it's *true*, but the truth
is *larger* then it's another story. It's easy to say "I've been banned
from participating." Especially if what I really mean is "I've been banned
from an easy way to participate, and I don't want to try any other approach
because it's <any reason you want here as I mentioned in my last post>.
The former is bad, the latter is misleading. If, for some reason, I don't
really want to attend, and a plausible reason for not going come up, it's
easy to use that reason to avoid the event. I'm not saying that this is
what happened to Junior, because I don't *know* any details yet. However
some things I've seen and heard lead me to believe that we don't yet know
everything that's happened, and I'm not changing our long-term plans based
on rumor and speculation.
If someone can produce something where the Indonesians have said "Junior can
not participate because it's from a Jewish country" then I'll happily withdraw.
However, if all that's been said is "due to political reasons (no diplomatic
relations in this case) the Junior programs can not obtain a VISA from the
Israeli/Indonesian governments" then that's quite a bit different. I'm not
into global politics. If two countries don't "speak" that is their business.
I suspect that except for the US, there are very few countries where you can't
find several other countries that they don't have diplomatic ties with. If
the ICCA holds an event in Iraq, I doubt I'd be able to get a VISA, I wouldn't
be going, but I wouldn't be raising cane about boycotting. Seems to me that's
my tough luck for living in the US. I do computer chess as a hobby. I'm not
doing it to make the world a better place, or improve an impoverished nation's
image or to try to punish a government that surely needs punishing.
My $.02 of course...
: It's very annoying to notice that you are trying to make a joke about this
: serious subject with your humor (?) about Bruce and you as the only ones
: in Jakarta.
I didn't particularly mean it as a joke. It is becoming more and more likely
every day.
:
: Followed by new CRAFTY highlights.
What new crafty highlights are you talking about? I don't remember saying much
about crafty of late, did I say something I don't remember? If I did, it was
certainly unintentional...
:
: You should be ashamed Bob!
:
: Well we all know Bob's answer:
: I was not intending but ...
: No no, I was not ...
:
: in maybe 2347 words.
:
: It will be NOT enough Bob even if you write 10,000 words.
: At least not for me.
I looked over the quoted text snipped out below this and could find nothing
about "new crafty highlights." I used the word Crafty several times, but only
in referring to it playing in Jakarta.
As to whether or not it's "enough for you," is your business, but it doesn't
matter to me at all. It *is* enough for me. We'll just have to agree to
disagree on this. The discussion has gone on long enough in my opinion, and
nothing's changed so far. Those that don't like the Indonesian "way" and think
a boycott will help are not going, those that don't like it, but don't think
that a boycott will help are going. end of story unless more data comes to
light that changes something in a significant way...
Ed Schröder
Bob,
The Junior guys explained us in detail, did you missed their posting
or simply decide to ignore it?
It's very annoying to notice that you are trying to make a joke about this
serious subject with your humor (?) about Bruce and you as the only ones
in Jakarta.
Followed by new CRAFTY highlights.
You should be ashamed Bob!
Well we all know Bob's answer:
I was not intending but ...
No no, I was not ...
in maybe 2347 words.
It will be NOT enough Bob even if you write 10,000 words.
At least not for me.
- Ed Schroder -
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Completely out of control. I sent mail to Bob.
>
> bruce
: Oh yeah ?
:
: yabba dabba dabba dooo, I'm a nutter.
:
: Is this how you're intending to deal with arguments you
: don't like ?
:
: Chris Whittington
Not particularly. However, Bruce does have a good point. Until we know
*exactly* what went on with the "Junior" decision to not go, we probably
shouldn't be hasty in judging the ICCA.
Several issues come to mind: (and I don't know that any, all, or none
of the following contributed to the problem): (1) suppose that Junior
was not quite ready to play, so that the authors chose to not try very
hard to get there? (2) suppose that the expense is too great and they
really didn't want to spend that much money in that way? (3) Suppose
they just didn't want to play this year? (4) Suppose they were not aware
of other ways to obtain a VISA to vixit Indonesia? (5) Suppose *their*
government said "don't go"?
As you can see, there are several possible reasons why they might not
want to go. I've already provided one myself, I couldn't go because
this takes about 2 weeks right out of the middle of our Fall term here
at UAB, roughly 20% of a class. When I looked at the situation carefully,
it just didn't seem reasonable that I try to attend, and had someone not
volunteered to go in my place, Crafty would not be going. I suppose that
Junior could be operated by "proxy" just like Crafty, although it's a non-
optimal solution.
My bottom line: until, as Paul Harvey says, "we know the rest of the story,"
I'm watching and waiting. Details will eventually come out. If it turns out
that the ICCA dropped the ball, and enough are unhappy about it, the next
WMCCC event might be a no-show. If the ICCA is doing their best, even though
(possible) bad judgement led to the tournament in Jakarta, then everyone
makes a mistake here and there. This just *might* be one of those.
I've talked to Bruce about this at length. My current feeling: If Ferret
and Crafty end up playing an 11 game match in Jakarta because they are the
only two that show up, that's life. We've played 11 game matches on ICC,
we can do it there as well. I've gotten someone that has volunteered to
go, is looking forward to it, and I'm not going to disrupt his planning at
this late date. I've got someone making arrangements for a P6/200 to run
Crafty on over there, and that too is not something I want to stop, after a
lot of effort *and* money has been spent. If I thought not going would
accomplish anything, I'd cancel, but I don't believe that is the case. If
you don't like my decision, so be it. But it's *not* based on human rights
issues, rather than on doing what I believe is right for people that have
volunteered to help me at significant expense. I appreciate their support
and am not going to get wishy-washy.
BTW, Crafty's not playing because I'm hunting a "title" for it. I've already
won what I consider to be the biggest and baddest tournament twice. I'm going
(actually Crafty is going) to see how it does against other programs, and
because after last year's event, I got *lots* of prodding via the internet to
have crafty play. For those that think this event is a bust and should be
boycotted, if my participation offends you, I appologize. However, I don't
know you nearly as well as I know the volunteers that are helping me, and I
want to offend those even less. To those that think Crafty should go, you'll
get your wish, whether it wins 11 games, or loses 11 games, or something in
the middle of this. Should it be fortunate enough to win, and you want to
put an "*" by the title in your book, feel free. I, too, wish that the rest
of the commercial programs were going. This is probably just about as much
weariness as protest in my book. A yearly tournament is a difficult schedule
to handle, from playing in ACM events nearly every year for over 20 years. It
gets tiring. It becomes drudgery. It ceases to be fun. And *then* the thing
begins to die away, as in the ACM events that are now "defunct."
Computer chess is already difficult, tiring, and time-consuming. If it gets
tied to political aspirations as well, the tournaments are likely going to die
away. From a personal perspective, after watching the ACM event die, I'd like
to see the WMCCC survive, although a couple of episodes like this year will do
much to prevent that.
Should I see anything that changes my personal opinion of this event, I'll
withdraw. However, the only things I'll consider are things directly related
to the tournament, not political side-issues that are often quite emotional.
I'll watch the discussion, but so far, about 90% of the arguments are simply
repeated over and over and over. If those of us still going "have not gotten
it by now, we likely aren't going to get it after another repeat". New data
will be read by me of course, but please, to convince me not to go, it's got
to be "what's wrong with the tournament" and not "what's wrong with the
ideology of the host country's government." Personally, I don't think Crafty's
going or not going will save one life, or feed one Indonesian, or improve the
life of any oppressed person on the face of this planet. I wish Crafty were
so socially significant that it could help, but reality says otherwise...
Robert Hyatt
Ed Schröder (10065...@CompuServe.COM) wrote:
: Bob,
:
: The Junior guys explained us in detail, did you missed their posting
: or simply decide to ignore it?
My $.02 of course...
: It's very annoying to notice that you are trying to make a joke about this
: serious subject with your humor (?) about Bruce and you as the only ones
: in Jakarta.
I didn't particularly mean it as a joke. It is becoming more and more likely
every day.
:
: Followed by new CRAFTY highlights.
What new crafty highlights are you talking about? I don't remember saying much
about crafty of late, did I say something I don't remember? If I did, it was
certainly unintentional...
:
: You should be ashamed Bob!
:
: Well we all know Bob's answer:
: I was not intending but ...
: No no, I was not ...
:
: in maybe 2347 words.
:
: It will be NOT enough Bob even if you write 10,000 words.
: At least not for me.
I looked over the quoted text snipped out below this and could find nothing
Robert Hyatt
Don Fong (df...@cse.ucsc.edu) wrote:
: In article <51hfh3$g...@juniper.cis.uab.edu>,: >: The Junior guys explained us in detail, did you missed their posting
: >: or simply decide to ignore it?
: >Nope I saw it. And as I said when I saw it, *if* it's true, then it's
: >an embarassing situation for all of us. If it's *true*, but the truth
: >is *larger* then it's another story. It's easy to say "I've been banned
: >from participating." Especially if what I really mean is "I've been banned
: >from an easy way to participate, and I don't want to try any other approach
: >because it's <any reason you want here as I mentioned in my last post>.
: Bob, let's review the evidence. Tony Marsland said: ``To cut a
: long story short we were unable to get any kind of an invitation for
: the Israeli participants, let alone a warm welcome.'' Shay Bushinsky
: said: ``We were one of the first teams who wanted to play in these
: championships but who soon found it impossible to participate indeed
: due to the ICCA mistake not to insist beforehand that the host
: country must accept all of the ICCA elected teams.''
Give 'em a chance to post their response. It's clear, lucid, logical,
devoid of emotional outburst, and devoid of disinformation. Once it hits,
then we can discuss things. Just give them a chance to get their act together,
meet with whomever they meet with, and discuss the draft to be sure it's what
they want to say...
Valavan Manohararajah
In article <51hccf$fug$1...@mhadf.production.compuserve.com>,
Ed Schröder <10065...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>Bob,
>
>The Junior guys explained us in detail, did you missed their posting
>or simply decide to ignore it?
>
>It's very annoying to notice that you are trying to make a joke about this
>serious subject with your humor (?) about Bruce and you as the only ones
>in Jakarta.
>
>Followed by new CRAFTY highlights.
>
>You should be ashamed Bob!
>
>Well we all know Bob's answer:
>I was not intending but ...
>No no, I was not ...
>
>in maybe 2347 words.
>
>It will be NOT enough Bob even if you write 10,000 words.
>At least not for me.
>
>- Ed Schroder -
>
Do you guys really think that a few chess programs not showing is going to
save a person, change the government's mind on whatever they are doing?
I really doubt whatever protest you guys are carrying out is really worthwhile.
Heck even as a "tinkerer" with chess programs, I don't have much interest in
these world championships... I really, really doubt you guys are so important
that the government/leading officials in indonesia will stop to think about
the World Micro Chess Competition. I don't see why you guys are criticizing
Bob for.
Hey, maybe I am dead wrong about this but these are my sincere views. If you
don't like them, why don't you try convince me otherwise.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
man...@ecf.utoronto.ca | 3rd year Comp Eng., University of Toronto
Valavan Manohararajah |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don Fong
In article <Dxt0H...@ecf.toronto.edu>,
Valavan Manohararajah <man...@ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>Do you guys really think that a few chess programs not showing is going to
>save a person, change the government's mind on whatever they are doing?
let me rephrase your question in chess terms. ``Do you really
think that backward pawn (or that centralized knight, that hole on
d6, etc) is going to win the game?''
have you ever wanted to buy something you could not currently
afford, like a house or a car? ``Do you really think that saving
nickels and dimes will ever add up to the thousands of dollars
that you will need?''
have you heard the Chinese proverb, ``A journey of 1000 miles
begins with a single step.''
your question is like asking,
``Why bother playing for a doubled pawn? it's not checkmate!''
yet many a game has been won by the accumulation of such small
advantages. the same goes for political struggles.
>I really doubt whatever protest you guys are carrying out is really worthwhile.
did you also doubt the worth of Gandhi's protests?
>Heck even as a "tinkerer" with chess programs, I don't have much interest in
>these world championships... I really, really doubt you guys are so important
>that the government/leading officials in indonesia will stop to think about
>the World Micro Chess Competition. I don't see why you guys are criticizing
>Bob for.
Bob Hyatt is preparing to do something that we feel is immoral.
he is also an outspoken advocate for the opinions we are trying to
change. notice that Bob doesn't hesitate to criticize (and insult,
defame, ridicule) his opponents either. i may not always appreciate
what he says, but i do appreciate the fact that he takes the time to
engage in the debate.
>Hey, maybe I am dead wrong about this but these are my sincere views. If you
>don't like them, why don't you try convince me otherwise.
we have been trying, or haven't you noticed? (:-)
Robert Hyatt
Ed Schröder (10065...@CompuServe.COM) wrote:
: Bob,
:
:
: Remains the question, why don't you just say so?
:
: To me the letter of Tony Marsland (which I personally know and have a high
: opinion about) and the statement of the Junior team was pretty convincing
: or am I mistaken?
Did you see the post from last night? If so, and you have a high regard
for Tony (as I do) then there's a lot of doubt about the Junior team's
not going. Personally, if they have any sort of problem that makes them
not want to go, that's their business. Tony's post seems to say that had
they wanted, they could have obtained a VISA. They were not excluded because
they are Jews, or because they are from Israel, rather, because the two
countries are apparently not maintaining diplomatic relations, making getting
a VISA difficult. But not impossible.
:
: Suppose "Cock de Gorter" (sorry Cock) would remove all USA participants
: from AEGON 1997, you would expect from us that we should boycott AEGON
: 1997 right? (and we will!)
If de Gorter did the banning, yes. If he picks a country that my State
Department says "sorry, no go" then I'd bi irate, but I wouldn't call for
any boycott. That would be a political issue. If he had only one choice
for a site, that'd be my bad luck. If he had several, that's be his bad
decision. In the case of Jakarta, it appears to be the former rather
than the latter.
BTW, it seems that I'm not the *only* one that's still going. So far, only
Marty and Chris have withdrawn it seems. Personally, I believe it's their
decision to go or not go, just as it's mine for Crafty.
:
: So does Junior expect from us to boycott Jakarta.
:
: Right or wrong?
:
: We can't protect the poor Indonesians, this is for Amnesty.
: But (IMO) we have the duty to protect our own programmer friends.
This I agree with, but after reading Tony's post, you might decide that
they were not blocked from going.
brucemo
Don Fong wrote:
>[lots of snipping throughout]
> ``Why bother playing for a doubled pawn? it's not checkmate!''
> yet many a game has been won by the accumulation of such small
> advantages. the same goes for political struggles.
There is also the notion that effort directed to solve a problem should
be the effort that will have the best chance of contributing to the
solution of the problem. A general boycott of the Jakarta tournament
will have an effect upon the ICCA and upon the participants, but no
effect upon the Indonesian government.
> did you also doubt the worth of Gandhi's protests?
Gandhi nearly starved himself to death in an effort to end violence
between Indians and Pakistanis. He had strong beliefs and he acted on
them, himself. I haven't heard you talking about giving up meals, Don,
all I've heard you suggest is that other people make sacrifices in order
to support your own notion of morality. If you would lead, perhaps
people will follow, but from my viewpoint all you have been doing in
here is hanging out behind a big rock while hollering, "Charge!" Talk
is cheap, especially when it is talk about what someone else should be
doing.
> Bob Hyatt is preparing to do something that we feel is immoral.
Must be a very draining upon you to spend so much energy judging other
men. Perhaps you should take a rest, I suggest something easier, such
as trying to do something substantive about the situation in East Timor.
On a more serious note, has anyone done any thinking about what CAN be
done about the situation in East Timor?
bruce
Valavan Manohararajah
In article <51k3i1$s...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>, Don Fong <df...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>In article <Dxt0H...@ecf.toronto.edu>,
>Valavan Manohararajah <man...@ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>>Do you guys really think that a few chess programs not showing is going to
>>save a person, change the government's mind on whatever they are doing?
>
> let me rephrase your question in chess terms. ``Do you really
>think that backward pawn (or that centralized knight, that hole on
>d6, etc) is going to win the game?''
> have you ever wanted to buy something you could not currently
>afford, like a house or a car? ``Do you really think that saving
>nickels and dimes will ever add up to the thousands of dollars
>that you will need?''
> have you heard the Chinese proverb, ``A journey of 1000 miles
>begins with a single step.''
> your question is like asking,
>yet many a game has been won by the accumulation of such small
>advantages. the same goes for political struggles.
>
>
>
Please don't start with this.... I know enough about political struggle...
Heck, I come from Sri Lanka, where the fighting continues daily. I am also
from the minority side that is currently discriminated against (the whole
cause for the struggle). Although now I am living in canada, I did spend
quite a big part of my life in Sri Lanka. So I don't really need you to
tell me about political struggles.
Maybe I should take your chess analogy further.... withdrawing/not particpating
in a chess tournament in jarkarta is something like a cough during a chess
game.... it really doesn't affect the final victor/loser. Chess programmers
protesting, will not really help the opressed. If you guys really want to
send a message, why not go down and do the protesting there....instead of
spending your energy bickering in r.g.c.c. with us non-believers. I would
think this is a more effective protest than withdrawing a few programs.
If you do have relatives in Indonesia, why not call them and ask how many of
them actually know about Chess System Tal/Rebel 8/Mchess pro with drawing.
Do you care to tell us how many?
Apart from the few of us "hanging-around" in r.g.c.c , most of the world
doesn't know about the withdrawals. Now how many of the rest of the world
would actually be an Indonesian politician. What do you think is the
probability of this?
So please give us a break Don/Ed/Chris.
>>Heck even as a "tinkerer" with chess programs, I don't have much interest in
>>these world championships... I really, really doubt you guys are so important
>>that the government/leading officials in indonesia will stop to think about
>>the World Micro Chess Competition. I don't see why you guys are criticizing
>>Bob for.
>
> Bob Hyatt is preparing to do something that we feel is immoral.
>he is also an outspoken advocate for the opinions we are trying to
>change. notice that Bob doesn't hesitate to criticize (and insult,
>defame, ridicule) his opponents either. i may not always appreciate
>what he says, but i do appreciate the fact that he takes the time to
>engage in the debate.
>
>>Hey, maybe I am dead wrong about this but these are my sincere views. If you
>>don't like them, why don't you try convince me otherwise.
>
> we have been trying, or haven't you noticed? (:-)
>
>--
>--- don fong ``i still want the peace dividend''
>--
Don Fong
In article <323DF0...@nwlink.com>, brucemo <bru...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>Don Fong wrote:
[lots of snipping throughout]
>> yet many a game has been won by the accumulation of such small
>> advantages. the same goes for political struggles.
>
>be the effort that will have the best chance of contributing to the
>solution of the problem. A general boycott of the Jakarta tournament
>will have an effect upon the ICCA and upon the participants, but no
>effect upon the Indonesian government.
i disagree: IMHO boycotting would have an effect (though small)
on the indonesian govt. i am not alone in this opinion. Human Rights
Watch, among others, agree. not boycotting the tournament will have
an effect, too, but in the wrong direction. as for what action has
the best chance of succeeding: one thing is certain, that "business
as usual" is not the answer.
>> did you also doubt the worth of Gandhi's protests?
>
>Gandhi nearly starved himself to death in an effort to end violence
>between Indians and Pakistanis. He had strong beliefs and he acted on
>them, himself.
Bruce, you have very selective hearing. i've already made public
the fact that i offered to organize a Santa Cruz bid. i was and am
prepared to spend my time and my own money to do so. and perhaps
you missed the post where i pledged to make an additional contribution
to Amnesty International. if you really want to know, i have also
made a personal decision to boycott Indonesian goods. whether you
think that is a good idea or not is not the point; the point is that
i am acting in accordance with my beliefs.
>I haven't heard you talking about giving up meals, Don,
? that's right, i haven't asked you or anyone else to give
up any meals either.
>all I've heard you suggest is that other people make sacrifices in order
>to support your own notion of morality.
one more time Bruce, i'm not asking people to do anything for -my-
principles, but for -their own-. assuming they believe in human rights
and democracy. if -you- don't, then just come out and say so.
>If you would lead, perhaps
>people will follow, but from my viewpoint all you have been doing in
>here is hanging out behind a big rock while hollering, "Charge!" Talk
>is cheap, especially when it is talk about what someone else should be
>doing.
Bruce, this is the internet. talk is about all that's available.
i have called for people to boycott Jakarta, and i myself am not going.
that's about all anyone can do in a boycott... that's the way
boycotts work. if you don't like it, then you don't have a problem
with me, you have a problem with boycotts.
>> Bob Hyatt is preparing to do something that we feel is immoral.
>
>Must be a very draining upon you to spend so much energy judging other
>men.
Bruce, there is an enormously important distinction that has
escaped your grasp: i did not say Bob Hyatt was immoral; i said he
was preparing to do -something that we feel is immoral-. that is
not a judgment of the man, but of an action. meditate upon the
difference... it is vital.
>Perhaps you should take a rest, I suggest something easier, such
>as trying to do something substantive about the situation in East Timor.
IMHO joining a boycott is substantive. convincing others to
join is substantive. you can rail against me all you want, but it
will do no good - it wasn't my idea in the first place. Human Rights
Watch and others have called for the boycott. if you want to call
them stupid or call them hypocrites, go ahead.
PS
Bruce, i think you are taking this debate way too personally.
you are engaging in argument ad hominem which is beneath you.
correct me if i'm wrong, but IMHO your posts seem to have an
increasingly hostile and resentful tone. i am simply trying to
reason with people. when they question my reasoning, i respond,
and i think i have responded civilly in every case.
Walter Ravenek
In article <Dxv0D...@ecf.toronto.edu>, man...@ecf.toronto.edu (Valavan
Manohararajah) wrote:
> Apart from the few of us "hanging-around" in r.g.c.c , most of the world
> doesn't know about the withdrawals. Now how many of the rest of the world
> would actually be an Indonesian politician. What do you think is the
> probability of this?
As with all boycotts it is a question how big they will become. Maybe they
will mean something if enough people join in.
Although the human rights situation in Indonesia bothers me too, I still
chose to go, thinking that it makes no difference at all wether I go or
not.
For me the situation changed when I learned that the Junior team cannot
participate because it comes from Israel. This is a direct consequence
of actions of the Indonesian government. I think this has something to
do with *us* computer chess programmers. The Indonesion government is
interfering with *our* tournament. Therefore I have withdrawn my program
Arthur.
Walter Ravenek
Chris Whittington
I was waiting for a clarification from the Junior programmers, and
now that it has been received, I believe them. I consider they
are 'banned', whatever 'spin' Marsland and Levy want to put on it.
Marsland knew they were banned, which is why he put up his first post.
Either he didn't realise the fire-storm that would ensue, or he
deliberately created it, in order to blow it out with a story
change, we shall never know.
His and Levy's second post was in direct contradiction of the first,
and to my mind, its a pretty cheap trick to slur the motives of
various people in order to try and protect a structure in which they
have a personal interest.
Chris Whittington
Chris Whittington
man...@ecf.toronto.edu (Valavan Manohararajah) wrote:
>
> In article <51k3i1$s...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>, Don Fong <df...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote:
> >In article <Dxt0H...@ecf.toronto.edu>,
> >Valavan Manohararajah <man...@ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
> >>Do you guys really think that a few chess programs not showing is going to
> >>save a person, change the government's mind on whatever they are doing?
> >
> > let me rephrase your question in chess terms. ``Do you really
> >think that backward pawn (or that centralized knight, that hole on
> >d6, etc) is going to win the game?''
> > have you ever wanted to buy something you could not currently
> >afford, like a house or a car? ``Do you really think that saving
> >nickels and dimes will ever add up to the thousands of dollars
> >that you will need?''
> > have you heard the Chinese proverb, ``A journey of 1000 miles
> >begins with a single step.''
> > your question is like asking,
> >yet many a game has been won by the accumulation of such small
> >advantages. the same goes for political struggles.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Heck, I come from Sri Lanka, where the fighting continues daily. I am also
> from the minority side that is currently discriminated against (the whole
> cause for the struggle). Although now I am living in canada, I did spend
> quite a big part of my life in Sri Lanka. So I don't really need you to
> tell me about political struggles.
>
> Maybe I should take your chess analogy further.... withdrawing/not particpating
> in a chess tournament in jarkarta is something like a cough during a chess
> game.... it really doesn't affect the final victor/loser. Chess programmers
> protesting, will not really help the opressed. If you guys really want to
> send a message, why not go down and do the protesting there....instead of
> spending your energy bickering in r.g.c.c. with us non-believers. I would
> think this is a more effective protest than withdrawing a few programs.
>
> If you do have relatives in Indonesia, why not call them and ask how many of
> them actually know about Chess System Tal/Rebel 8/Mchess pro with drawing.
>
> Do you care to tell us how many?
>
> doesn't know about the withdrawals. Now how many of the rest of the world
> would actually be an Indonesian politician. What do you think is the
> probability of this?
>
There's been quite a few 'give us a break' quotes from the
hardliners (for want of better term).
Bruce originally posted: 'if you want to, withdraw, and then keep
quiet about it' or something like that. And there've been several
shup-up suggestions.
I put it to you guys that you are trying to live in a bubble of
your own. In this bubble lies the technical world, specifically
computers and programs. Outside lies all the stuff you want to ignore,
death, Indonesia, pain, life, emotion, whatever it is in your own case.
Sometimes this stuff tries to prick its way through the thin veneer
you've constructed. Your response is 'go away, don't bother me'.
So when Marsland/Levy gives you a straw to clutch (like they says Chris
Whittington isn't going because he doesn't want to spend the money, or
Junior aren't going because they don't want to pay the fare Israel
to Frankfurt, and Ed isn't going because of books, and Marty's
case isn't really true because he was going to let a swede run his
program, or in other words we're all devious liars), you clutch it.
There you say, its not so bad, we can go. And you reconstruct the
thin veneer of protection, and go back to your computers.
Chris Whittington
>
> >>Heck even as a "tinkerer" with chess programs, I don't have much interest in
> >>these world championships... I really, really doubt you guys are so important
> >>that the government/leading officials in indonesia will stop to think about
> >>the World Micro Chess Competition. I don't see why you guys are criticizing
> >>Bob for.
> >
> > Bob Hyatt is preparing to do something that we feel is immoral.
> >he is also an outspoken advocate for the opinions we are trying to
> >change. notice that Bob doesn't hesitate to criticize (and insult,
> >defame, ridicule) his opponents either. i may not always appreciate
> >what he says, but i do appreciate the fact that he takes the time to
> >engage in the debate.
> >
> >>Hey, maybe I am dead wrong about this but these are my sincere views. If you
> >>don't like them, why don't you try convince me otherwise.
> >
> > we have been trying, or haven't you noticed? (:-)
> >
> >--
> >--- don fong ``i still want the peace dividend''
> >--
>
>
Don Fong
In article <Dxv0D...@ecf.toronto.edu>,
Valavan Manohararajah <man...@ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>In article <51k3i1$s...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>, Don Fong <df...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>>In article <Dxt0H...@ecf.toronto.edu>,
>>Valavan Manohararajah <man...@ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>>>Do you guys really think that a few chess programs not showing is going to
>>>save a person, change the government's mind on whatever they are doing?
>Please don't start with this.... I know enough about political struggle...
>Heck, I come from Sri Lanka, where the fighting continues daily. I am also
>from the minority side that is currently discriminated against (the whole
>cause for the struggle). Although now I am living in canada, I did spend
>quite a big part of my life in Sri Lanka. So I don't really need you to
>tell me about political struggles.
perhaps you know everything there is to know about political struggles,
yet you don't understand that individual acts can make a difference?
>Maybe I should take your chess analogy further.... withdrawing/not particpating
>in a chess tournament in jarkarta is something like a cough during a chess
>game.... it really doesn't affect the final victor/loser.
if enough people coughed at once, the players would find it impossible
to continue the game.
Ed Schröder
Subject: Re: Jakarta jokes (not funny at all)
: Bob,
:
: To me you already decided to participate in Jakarta and nothing
: will change your mind.
:
: Remains the question, why don't you just say so?
:
: To me the letter of Tony Marsland (which I personally know and have a high
: opinion about) and the statement of the Junior team was pretty convincing
: or am I mistaken?
>Did you see the post from last night? If so, and you have a high regard
>for Tony (as I do) then there's a lot of doubt about the Junior team's
>not going. Personally, if they have any sort of problem that makes them
>not want to go, that's their business. Tony's post seems to say that had
>they wanted, they could have obtained a VISA. They were not excluded because
>they are Jews, or because they are from Israel, rather, because the two
>countries are apparently not maintaining diplomatic relations, making getting
>a VISA difficult. But not impossible.
I saw it BUT I also saw the second posting of the Junior team which
stated the opposite of the second ICCA posting.
So whom are we going to believe? Unfortunately I must conclude that this
the real issue here (atleast to me).
If I read the first posting of the ICCA they say the same as the Junior
team, meaning "Junior was NOT welcome". This gives the Junior team the
benefit of the doubt when it comes who we should believe.
The first letter of ICCA said "Junior is NOT welcome".
The second letter of ICCA said "Junior IS welcome".
They did not make it exactly easy for us.
Moreover I disliked the offending style of second ICCA letter especially
on Chris.
Does ICCA have something to hide?
Can ICCA tell me why letter (1) says the opposite of letter (2) concerning
the Junior welcome issue? I did not read an explanation for this.
[ snip ]
I assume we never come out we all have different principals (and there is
nothing wrong with that!) but for me counts that we can not play a
tournament if participants are not welcome because the country does not
like them.
It's called racism, some 50 years ago we had a similar problem in the world,
but the world was sleeping ending in 20,000,000 dead Jews.
And it always starts in this small portions, slowly growing. There is only
ONE way: Say *NO* to Jakarta till ATLEAST the Junior problem is SOLVED!
Just my view...
- Ed Schroder -
brucemo
Chris Whittington wrote:
> So when Marsland/Levy gives you a straw to clutch (like they says Chris
> Whittington isn't going because he doesn't want to spend the money, or
> Junior aren't going because they don't want to pay the fare Israel
> to Frankfurt, and Ed isn't going because of books, and Marty's
> case isn't really true because he was going to let a swede run his
> program, or in other words we're all devious liars), you clutch it.
I have heard nothing of this nature regarding Marty Hirsch. I have heard
nothing from the ICCA that contradicts the story that Hirsch stayed out of
the tournament as a matter of conscience.
bruce
Robert Hyatt
Ed Schröder (10065...@CompuServe.COM) wrote:
: Subject: Re: Jakarta jokes (not funny at all)
:
: : Bob,
: :
: : To me you already decided to participate in Jakarta and nothing
: : will change your mind.
: :
: : Remains the question, why don't you just say so?
: :
: : To me the letter of Tony Marsland (which I personally know and have a high
: : opinion about) and the statement of the Junior team was pretty convincing
: : or am I mistaken?
:
: >Did you see the post from last night? If so, and you have a high regard
: >for Tony (as I do) then there's a lot of doubt about the Junior team's
: >not going. Personally, if they have any sort of problem that makes them
: >not want to go, that's their business. Tony's post seems to say that had
: >they wanted, they could have obtained a VISA. They were not excluded because
: >they are Jews, or because they are from Israel, rather, because the two
: >countries are apparently not maintaining diplomatic relations, making getting
: >a VISA difficult. But not impossible.
:
: I saw it BUT I also saw the second posting of the Junior team which
: stated the opposite of the second ICCA posting.
:
: So whom are we going to believe? Unfortunately I must conclude that this
: the real issue here (atleast to me).
:
: If I read the first posting of the ICCA they say the same as the Junior
: team, meaning "Junior was NOT welcome". This gives the Junior team the
: benefit of the doubt when it comes who we should believe.
:
: The first letter of ICCA said "Junior is NOT welcome".
: The second letter of ICCA said "Junior IS welcome".
I did not read anything that way. I read that Junior is welcomed by
the ICCA to play, but they are going to have to jump through some hoops
in order to obtain a VISA to Indonesia. The ICCA can't speak for the
Indonesian government of course, and the ICCA can't offer entry to a
team if the host country has any sort of travel restrictions.
I don't believe that it is possible to prevent this in the future, either
for a couple of reasons. First, usually the *government* does not offer
a bid to host such an event, and any lesser entity is not going to be able
to bind the government to guarantee entry to any team or teams. Second,
even if they did, a single terrorist bomb in an airline, or the suspicion
of one could change that in an instant. It's part of international travel,
going to foreign countries is simply a pain. It always has been, and it
always will be...
: They did not make it exactly easy for us.
:
: Moreover I disliked the offending style of second ICCA letter especially
: on Chris.
I'd love to know more about this, but I doubt any further information is
going to be forthcoming, and perhaps it's private enough that it should not
show up here anyway. Since I don't know anything about either side of the
equation, I won't choose sides, period. As a general rule, this is the
safest course. It certainly avoids the opportunity for embarassment later
if something else becomes public...
:
: Does ICCA have something to hide?
:
: Can ICCA tell me why letter (1) says the opposite of letter (2) concerning
: the Junior welcome issue? I did not read an explanation for this.
:
: [ snip ]
:
: I assume we never come out we all have different principals (and there is
: nothing wrong with that!) but for me counts that we can not play a
: tournament if participants are not welcome because the country does not
: like them.
I agree with your statement 100%. However, the concept is slightly flawed
in my view. It's not "the junior team" that's not welcome. It's not an
Israeli citizen that's not welcome. Actually, it's nothing more than a
citizen from a country that is currently not having diplomatic relations
with Indonesia that is not welcome. And saying "not welcome" is really
not the right way, rather they are locked out by circumstance. The
circumstance being that they don't have a "key" to the locked door, and
can't (apparently) either (a) get one at all; or (b) get one with a lot
of work, depending on which side you choose to believe. From past
experience, the truth probably lies somewhere in between.
ICCA seems to be caught between a rock and a hard place, because until they
get the entries, they can't list the expected country of origin for each
possible participant, and until they get a venue for the tournament, they can't
get entries because the participants don't know where/when/etc and can't plan
properly. As I said, while I'm not a US State Department expert, I'd bet you
can find countries that would have severe problems sending a team to the US.
Iran is likely one, Iraq might be difficult, who knows who else. To me, this
puts the ICCA in an untenable position of having to pick a site that will
accept unknown entries from unknown countries. I can't say it's impossible,
but it might be difficult. Suppose Junior was not even entered? This would
then be a non-issue since we wouldn't know about it. The question is, should
this then doom the event, because no one else offered to put it on.
Don mentioned something about UC Santa Cruz, but the finances are such that
it would probably take at least $50,000 to put this event on, buying 24 round
trip tickets is non-trivial, not to mention a meeting site, motel discounts,
etc. If UC Santa Cruz would really do this, and do it quickly, you have my
ear and I'd consider it if everyone else would agree to lets drop the Jakarta
event now. If not, maybe next year?
:
: It's called racism, some 50 years ago we had a similar problem in the world,
: but the world was sleeping ending in 20,000,000 dead Jews.
and 30 years ago in the USA it was thousands of blacks, and on and on. No one
likes what has happened at various times in the world. However, thank goodness
most of us got over Hitler and Nazi Germany (although all of us have not, as it
sure comes up here pretty often.) There's a lot of Germans (East and West)
that I call friends, and many others that I would consider it a privilege to
call them friends. This doesn't come close to what went on back then, and the
circumstances are way different to boot...
:
: And it always starts in this small portions, slowly growing. There is only
: ONE way: Say *NO* to Jakarta till ATLEAST the Junior problem is SOLVED!
:
: Just my view...
:
: - Ed Schroder -
I suspect that Shay doesn't *want* to solve the problem. If, as he stated,
he feels unwelcome over there (whether or not that's justified is something
he has to decide of course) then he shouldn't go and that decision should not
cause any hard feelings on any side. I doubt I'd go to Baghdad to play after
the recent US/Iraq hostilities, but that would be *my* decision, unless they
refused me entry, when you might say that'd be my ignorance for wanting to
go. In any case, it seems that Shay and team don't want to play *there*,
which sounds like a reasonable position for them after finding out about the
visa difficulties. However, I'd like to see some one from Indonesia post
something here as to whether there is *any* way for Junior to enter the
country or not. I've gotten a couple of private email's suggesting it is
not that hard, but the people writing specifically asked me to keep their name
private, probably to avoid repercussions of their own...
Don Fong
In article <51nf65$f...@juniper.cis.uab.edu>,
just to clarify, i said "Santa Cruz", not "UC Santa Cruz".
it would be impossible for UCSC to put up the money for such an event,
and it would be doubly impossible to do it on short notice. my plan
was to seek corporate sponsorship from local high-tech co's. we might
be able to get some appropriate in-kind contributions also.
>but the finances are such that
>it would probably take at least $50,000 to put this event on, buying 24 round
>trip tickets is non-trivial, not to mention a meeting site, motel discounts,
>etc. If UC Santa Cruz would really do this, and do it quickly, you have my
>ear and I'd consider it if everyone else would agree to lets drop the Jakarta
>event now.
i sent Tony Marsland my offer to organize an alternative bid.
he refused my offer. so the question becomes, how many entrants are
willing to desert ICCA? it would have to be an act of goodwill.
i don't think i could match Jakarta's bid financially, but Santa Cruz
would beat it morally. and hopefully, many of the Jakarta boycotters
would enter, making it a better contest. i think the event could be
staged for less than $50,000, especially if ICCA were not involved
(thereby avoiding their overhead).
>If not, maybe next year?
i have no interest in organizing next year's event, i'm only
interested in stopping the Jakarta fiasco.
Chris Whittington
brucemo <bru...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>
> Chris Whittington wrote:
>
> > So when Marsland/Levy gives you a straw to clutch (like they says Chris
> > Whittington isn't going because he doesn't want to spend the money, or
> > Junior aren't going because they don't want to pay the fare Israel
> > to Frankfurt, and Ed isn't going because of books, and Marty's
> > case isn't really true because he was going to let a swede run his
> > program, or in other words we're all devious liars), you clutch it.
>
> nothing from the ICCA that contradicts the story that Hirsch stayed out of
> the tournament as a matter of conscience.
>
> bruce
Yes, they said he wasn't in, then said there was a Swedish person
to operate the program, then withdrew.
Although it was wrapped in a 'greatest respect for' etc. (I didn't
get one of those, shame), I took it as a spin to cast a little doubt
on his reasons to withdraw. Not as much spin as in my case, but still
some spin - otherwise, why say it ?
Certainly they were trying to cast doubt on my reasons, and Juniors
reasons also.
In my case, slur and innuendo, which then got echoed (and then
kindly withdrawn as the poster read some more) on rgcc.
They also subtly slurred the newsgroup in general, as you may have
noticed. So much so that the ICCA no longers stoops to post to we
untermensch, but does it via you.
And, in the case of Ed, I think we can take him as one of the
people who would have pulled out over the Junior issue had
he been going in the first place, books or no books.
However, the original point remains. These spinning doubt-casters
are there to provide straws for those wanting to go, to carry on
going.
I, for one, note that they have certainly been clutched. For they
are the straws by means of which various people have announced their
intentions to carry on going.
Snip-snip to the straws I say.
Or as Ingo Althofer as so concisely put it:
Junior applied.
Junior was accepted.
Junior was refused a visa.
Short straw ?
Chris Whittington
brucemo
Don Fong wrote:
> if enough people coughed at once, the players would find it impossible
> to continue the game.
There are simplier ways to disrupt a chess game. One of them is simply talking incessantly,
which one person can do, and in this particular example might have a tangible effect.
bruce
brucemo
Chris Whittington wrote:
> They also subtly slurred the newsgroup in general, as you may have
> noticed. So much so that the ICCA no longers stoops to post to we
> untermensch, but does it via you.
Dude. I was the one who suggested doing it this way. Marsland wanted me to forward
Levy's email to him, so he could post it, but I was concerned that this would be a waste
of time, since Marsland has a hard time dealing with mail from me, my mail deal and his
mail deal don't get along well, he gets all my gunk on one line.
Tony Marsland did not kill JFK.
bruce
Chris Whittington
Indeed, and I can report that every person who mentions him says
he's a good guy. Honest and reasonable.
Personally, I think he would have cancelled Jakarta had the
contract allowed it. There's not much other interpretation to
his first post.
There may well be a split on the ICCA board, that would account
for the second post being so different to the first.
Chris Whittington
>
> bruce
Dave Gomboc
In article <84314852...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Whittington <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>brucemo <bru...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>>
>> Chris Whittington wrote:
>>
>> > They also subtly slurred the newsgroup in general, as you may have
>> > noticed. So much so that the ICCA no longers stoops to post to we
>> > untermensch, but does it via you.
>>
>> Dude. I was the one who suggested doing it this way. Marsland wanted me to forward
>> Levy's email to him, so he could post it, but I was concerned that this would be a waste
>> of time, since Marsland has a hard time dealing with mail from me, my mail deal and his
>> mail deal don't get along well, he gets all my gunk on one line.
>>
>> Tony Marsland did not kill JFK.
>
>Indeed, and I can report that every person who mentions him says
>he's a good guy. Honest and reasonable.
>
>Personally, I think he would have cancelled Jakarta had the
>contract allowed it. There's not much other interpretation to
>his first post.
>
A month or two ago my girlfriend and I were up in Edmonton (we live
about 3 hours south by car in Calgary) and were at the University of
Alberta. I wanted to get a feel for graduate studies in Computer
Science at the U of A, and Dr. Marsland quite kindly spent over an
hour discussing the possibility with us, despite the fact that he was
busy when we arrived. I will stand up and say he is a good guy. :-)
>There may well be a split on the ICCA board, that would account
>for the second post being so different to the first.
It could just be that at the time of the first post, this was a
(relatively) new problem, and people were quite unhappy about its
existance, while at the time of the second post, people may have
adjusted their target after accepting that the problem was not going
to be easily solvable. Without an alternative bid, the ICCA's options
were rather limited.
Some people point to the FIDE match as an example: my response is that
Kirsan Illjhumanov (sp?) might have a lot of money to sponsor chess
with, but it is unlikely Dr. Marsland et al have similarly deep pockets.
Dave Gomboc
drgo...@a.stu.athabascau.ca
Tim Mirabile
Chris Whittington <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Personally, I think he would have cancelled Jakarta had the
>contract allowed it. There's not much other interpretation to
>his first post.
Right, even if there were no legal repercussions, who is going to offer
bids next year if they break the contract this year?
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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