Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
mclane
can somebody please tell me how fast the following position is solved
on his Kittinger-program ?!
It is:
WKa2 Qc3 Rd1g1 Bd2 a3b2d3d4e3f4g5
BKd7 Qa4 Rh3h2 Be7 a5b5c6d5e6f7g6
Black to move !
solution:
1...Bb4 ! Qc1
2. Bxa3! and white has no chance...
I know that Wchess solves Bb4! but would like to know how long this
takes on your machine.
Especially I am interested in the question, how long Power-chess98
needs time to find it, because I want to see if the Powerchess98
engine is faster than Wchess I have.
The position is very difficult. I doubt if any other program finds Bb4
with the following bishop-sacrifice.
A typical Kittinger/Wchess - sac !!
best wishes
mclane
mclane
>Hi ,
>It is:
>Black to move !
>solution:
>best wishes
>mclane
I have forgotten to give the PGN of this game-position:
[Event "?"]
[Site "mail-chess"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Opponent"]
[Black "Mclane"]
[Result "0-1"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. f4 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. e3 c6 6. Ne5 Ne4 7. Nxe4
Bxe4 8. Qd2
Be7 9. Rg1 Nd7 10. Bd3 Nf6 11. g4 Bxd3 12. cxd3 Nd7 13. g5 Qb6 14. Qc2
g6 15.
Nxd7 Kxd7 16. Bd2 h6 17. h4 hxg5 18. hxg5 Rh2 19. O-O-O Rah8 20. Qc3
R8h3 21.
Kb1 Qb5 22. Ka1 a5 23. a3 b6 24. Ka2 Qa4 25. Kb1 b5 26. Ka2 Bb4 27.
Qc1 Bxa3
28. bxa3 Rxe3 29. Rh1 b4 30. Rxh2 Rxd3 31. Qb2 Rxa3+ 32. Qxa3 Qxa3+
33. Kb1
Qd3+ 34. Kb2 Qxd4+ 35. Ka2 c5 36. Re1 c4 0-1
The move you have to find is 26...Bb4 and 27...Bxa3.
best wishes
mclane
Komputer Korner
from a setup of the position.
--
--
Komputer Korner
The inkompetent komputer
To send email take the 1 out of my address. My email address is
kor...@netcom.ca but take the 1 out before sending the email.
mclane wrote in message <6pqql2$tod$1...@steve.prima.ruhr.de>...
mclane
>Doesn't 26...b4 also win? That is what the Power Chess Queen plays
>from a setup of the position.
I am looking for a Kittinger program with
ply, evalsuation, main-line OUTPUT.
Power-chess has no info-output, only AFTER you force the move you get
an evaluation , is power98 different ?
My wchess FIRST starts with b4 too.
B4 is a good move. But Bb4-Bxa3 is the complete victory.
You can see how a game develops, because I have given the rest of the
game in the pgn-file.
My Wchess on my 200 Mhz k6 with 32 MB and -x option needs 3902 seconds
to find the move Bb4 Qc1 with a window in the 14 iteration.
Than it takes much more time come back with a more precise main-line
and evaluation.
Could you please check how long the powerchess98 queen needs. And
could you please confirm that powerchess98 has the normal output of a
chess-program, that is ply, evals, main-line ?!
Upgrading my pc from k5/100 to k6/350 I lost my last token of Wchess
1.04 I bought a long time ago.
Now i don't want to buy wchess again, but a LATEST kittinger (because
you NEEEEEEEED a Kittinger, as this position shows, almost only daves
program finds Bb4 with the sac idea on a3 ! Isn't this marvellous ?!).
If powerchess98 has this features, I would like to buy one unit for my
350 Mhz k6/300.
I don't wanna buy a chess program that has no ply, evals, main-line
information during search. But how shall I know without trying it out
?
So I ask here !
Thanks for your help in forward KK.
>>I have forgotten to give the PGN of this game-position:
>>
>>[Event "?"]
>>[Site "mail-chess"]
>>[Date "????.??.??"]
>>[Round "?"]
>>[White "Opponent"]
>>[Black "Mclane"]
>>[Result "0-1"]
>>
>>1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. f4 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. e3 c6 6. Ne5 Ne4 7. Nxe4
>>Bxe4 8. Qd2
>>Be7 9. Rg1 Nd7 10. Bd3 Nf6 11. g4 Bxd3 12. cxd3 Nd7 13. g5 Qb6 14.
>Qc2
>>g6 15.
>>Nxd7 Kxd7 16. Bd2 h6 17. h4 hxg5 18. hxg5 Rh2 19. O-O-O Rah8 20. Qc3
>>R8h3 21.
>>Kb1 Qb5 22. Ka1 a5 23. a3 b6 24. Ka2 Qa4 25. Kb1 b5 26. Ka2 Bb4 27.
>>Qc1 Bxa3
>>28. bxa3 Rxe3 29. Rh1 b4 30. Rxh2 Rxd3 31. Qb2 Rxa3+ 32. Qxa3 Qxa3+
>>33. Kb1
>>Qd3+ 34. Kb2 Qxd4+ 35. Ka2 c5 36. Re1 c4 0-1
>>
>>The move you have to find is 26...Bb4 and 27...Bxa3.
best wishes
mclane
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from kor...@netcom.ca concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> Doesn't 26...b4 also win? That is what the Power Chess Queen plays
> from a setup of the position.
> Komputer Korner
That's what the King also sees with +1.xx. I don't see any advantage in
26...Bb4.
> >[Event "?"]
> >[Site "mail-chess"]
> >[Date "????.??.??"]
> >[Round "?"]
> >[White "Opponent"]
> >[Black "Mclane"]
> >[Result "0-1"]
> >
> >1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. f4 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. e3 c6 6. Ne5 Ne4 7. Nxe4
> >Bxe4 8. Qd2
> >Be7 9. Rg1 Nd7 10. Bd3 Nf6 11. g4 Bxd3 12. cxd3 Nd7 13. g5 Qb6 14.
> Qc2
> >g6 15.
> >Nxd7 Kxd7 16. Bd2 h6 17. h4 hxg5 18. hxg5 Rh2 19. O-O-O Rah8 20. Qc3
> >R8h3 21.
> >Kb1 Qb5 22. Ka1 a5 23. a3 b6 24. Ka2 Qa4 25. Kb1 b5 26. Ka2 Bb4 27.
> >Qc1 Bxa3
> >28. bxa3 Rxe3 29. Rh1 b4 30. Rxh2 Rxd3 31. Qb2 Rxa3+ 32. Qxa3 Qxa3+
> >33. Kb1
> >Qd3+ 34. Kb2 Qxd4+ 35. Ka2 c5 36. Re1 c4 0-1
> >
> >The move you have to find is 26...Bb4 and 27...Bxa3.
Harald Faber
mclane
>quoting a mail from kor...@netcom.ca concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
>> Doesn't 26...b4 also win? That is what the Power Chess Queen plays
>> from a setup of the position.
>> Komputer Korner
>That's what the King also sees with +1.xx. I don't see any advantage in
>26...Bb4.
It is all very nice that you want to tell me about b4.
I am not interested in b4 !
Believe me, the reason your king or queen plays b4 is, it has not yet
found Bb4 Qc1 Bxa3.
again: my wchess plays b4 with 1.xx too.
But after 1 h 5 minutes and 2 seconds, it finds Bb4 and never changes
the move again...
it evaluates this move higher.
This is what i wanted to know: how long needs the powerchess98 for
bb4?!
And: is power chess 98 showing
a) ply, main-line and evaluation DURING the search.
b) do I have an infitine level ?!
c) do I have a player-player mode and a setup-board mode.
These are trivial questions, but it is a pity that these us-programs
often do not these trivial/easy features. The whole mass-market
programs looks much toyish. Many colors, many piece-sets and all kind
of tattara-stuff, but no MAIN computerchess output or handling.
It looks the producers of these games are no chess-players.
What a pity.
best wishes
mclane
Robert Hyatt
: Har...@t-online.de wrote:
:>quoting a mail from kor...@netcom.ca concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
:>> Doesn't 26...b4 also win? That is what the Power Chess Queen plays
:>> from a setup of the position.
:>> Komputer Korner
:>That's what the King also sees with +1.xx. I don't see any advantage in
:>26...Bb4.
: It is all very nice that you want to tell me about b4.
: I am not interested in b4 !
: Believe me, the reason your king or queen plays b4 is, it has not yet
: found Bb4 Qc1 Bxa3.
: again: my wchess plays b4 with 1.xx too.
: But after 1 h 5 minutes and 2 seconds, it finds Bb4 and never changes
: the move again...
: it evaluates this move higher.
: This is what i wanted to know: how long needs the powerchess98 for
: bb4?!
I don't get the point then? IE I haven't ever played in a chess tournament where
I had 1 hour to search a move. :)
Komputer Korner
unnecessary. Anyway, you don't want Power Chess 98, Thorsten because
all it gives is the evaluation score and it doesn't even do that from
a setup position. Power Chess 98 is a mass market program not meant
for experienced testers like you. There is a player- player mode (The
LAB) but no engine is thinking in that mode.
--
--
Komputer Korner
The inkompetent komputer
To send email take the 1 out of my address. My email address is
kor...@netcom.ca but take the 1 out before sending the email.
mclane wrote in message <6psbl3$eef$1...@steve.prima.ruhr.de>...
>>But after 1 h 5 minutes and 2 seconds, it finds Bb4 and never
changes
>the move again...
>it evaluates this move higher.
>
>This is what i wanted to know: how long needs the powerchess98 for
>bb4?!
>
WangHeng
shown by the pgn file for the game that was previously posted) and appears to
me to be the preferred line.
>Subject: Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
>From: "Komputer Korner" <kor...@netcom.ca>
>Date: 7/31/98 7:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <6psk04$6gg$1...@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>
>
>Since .....b4 also wins, the Bb4 move is a gratuitous sac and
>unnecessary.
( rest of post deleted)
WangHeng
>Date: 7/31/98 3:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <6ps5nt$tll$2...@news02.btx.dtag.de>
>
>
>quoting a mail from kor...@netcom.ca concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98
>sacs bishop
>
>
>> Doesn't 26...b4 also win? That is what the Power Chess Queen plays
>> from a setup of the position.
>> Komputer Korner
>
>That's what the King also sees with +1.xx. I don't see any advantage in
>26...Bb4.
>
Then you obviously haven't even looked at the actual game which is
included in your own posted reply! The advantage of 26...Bb4 is clearly shown
in the game!
mclane
>Since .....b4 also wins, the Bb4 move is a gratuitous sac and
>unnecessary.
Aha. Unnecessary ! And thats the reason Wchess play it after 1 h ?!
And before thinking on b4 with lower evaluation ....
> Anyway, you don't want Power Chess 98, Thorsten because
>all it gives is the evaluation score and it doesn't even do that from
>a setup position.
Shocking facts.
> Power Chess 98 is a mass market program not meant
>for experienced testers like you.
Search depth, evals and main-line should be standard. no matter if
mass-market, shareware or freeware.
> There is a player- player mode (The
>LAB) but no engine is thinking in that mode.
I see - they were not able to get Kittinger what he should get, an
interface that has some easiest features.
Sorry for asking . I will buy an old Wchess somewhere.... Thanks...
best wishes
mclane
Ernst A. Heinz
> [...]
>
> The position is very difficult. I doubt if any other program finds Bb4
> with the following bishop-sacrifice.
"DarkThought" finds Bb4 with the subsequent bishop-sacrifice in its PV
in iteration #14 after 2 minutes on a 600MHz Alpha-21164a.
=Ernst=
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from mcl...@prima.ruhr.de concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> >> Doesn't 26...b4 also win? That is what the Power Chess Queen plays
> >> from a setup of the position.
> >> Komputer Korner
>
> >That's what the King also sees with +1.xx. I don't see any advantage in
> >26...Bb4.
>
> It is all very nice that you want to tell me about b4.
> I am not interested in b4 !
>
> Believe me, the reason your king or queen plays b4 is, it has not yet
> found Bb4 Qc1 Bxa3.
Because ...b4 is better. ;-)
> This is what i wanted to know: how long needs the powerchess98 for
> bb4?!
>
> And: is power chess 98 showing
>
> a) ply, main-line and evaluation DURING the search.
> b) do I have an infitine level ?!
> c) do I have a player-player mode and a setup-board mode.
I don't know, I don't have Powerchess since the last version. For me it
has an annoying GUI.
I had the King 2.55 analyze.
Harald Faber
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from wang...@aol.com concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> >Subject: Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> >From: Har...@t-online.de
> >Date: 7/31/98 3:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <6ps5nt$tll$2...@news02.btx.dtag.de>
> >> Doesn't 26...b4 also win? That is what the Power Chess Queen plays
> >> from a setup of the position.
> >> Komputer Korner
> >
> >That's what the King also sees with +1.xx. I don't see any advantage in
> >26...Bb4.
> >
>
> Then you obviously haven't even looked at the actual game which is
> included in your own posted reply! The advantage of 26...Bb4 is clearly
> shown in the game!
For 26...Bb4 is found in more than an hour while we look at it for 10mins
this is out of discussion. Who wants to can look or let look his
program(s) for such a waste of time, I don't.
> >> >[Event "?"]
> >> >[Site "mail-chess"]
> >> >[Date "????.??.??"]
> >> >[Round "?"]
> >> >[White "Opponent"]
> >> >[Black "Mclane"]
> >> >[Result "0-1"]
> >> >
> >> >1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. f4 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. e3 c6 6. Ne5 Ne4 7. Nxe4
> >> >Bxe4 8. Qd2
> >> >Be7 9. Rg1 Nd7 10. Bd3 Nf6 11. g4 Bxd3 12. cxd3 Nd7 13. g5 Qb6 14.
> >> Qc2
> >> >g6 15.
> >> >Nxd7 Kxd7 16. Bd2 h6 17. h4 hxg5 18. hxg5 Rh2 19. O-O-O Rah8 20. Qc3
> >> >R8h3 21.
> >> >Kb1 Qb5 22. Ka1 a5 23. a3 b6 24. Ka2 Qa4 25. Kb1 b5 26. Ka2 Bb4 27.
> >> >Qc1 Bxa3
> >> >28. bxa3 Rxe3 29. Rh1 b4 30. Rxh2 Rxd3 31. Qb2 Rxa3+ 32. Qxa3 Qxa3+
> >> >33. Kb1
> >> >Qd3+ 34. Kb2 Qxd4+ 35. Ka2 c5 36. Re1 c4 0-1
Harald Faber
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from wang...@aol.com concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> I disagree. I don't see how b4 "wins"? The bishop sac obviously wins
> (as shown by the pgn file for the game that was previously posted) and
> appears to me to be the preferred line.
There is a line where The King disagrees with a white move, don't remember
what it was. I can look it after if there is need for. I think it was
31.Qb2 which is much worse than the Kings suggestion.
> >Since .....b4 also wins, the Bb4 move is a gratuitous sac and
> >unnecessary.
> ( rest of post deleted)
Harald Faber
mclane
>Thorsten Czub wrote:
WOW !! Thats really fast !!
My wchess 1.04 makes 70.-100.000 NPS and need to come into #14 it.
too. As I said it needs 3902 ". You are 32 times faster !!!!!
Well done Ernst/Markus !!
On the other hand, i am proud that Wchess finds the move. I guess it
is this kind of stuff that makes the kittinger programs that exciting.
They find those moves !! Other programs really have problems to
differenciate b4 and Bb4 and come with accurate evaluations.
This was always the strength of Kittinger programs, to come with nice
sacs and nice temptations. This is the old kittinger style.
I hope cstal does not have to play again next championship vs.
DarkThought. Your 2 minutes worries me...
>=Ernst=
best wishes
mclane
WangHeng
>From: Har...@t-online.de
>Date: 8/2/98 2:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <6q1cce$vab$3...@news02.btx.dtag.de>
>
>
>quoting a mail from wang...@aol.com concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98
>sacs bishop
>
>
>> I disagree. I don't see how b4 "wins"? The bishop sac obviously wins
>> (as shown by the pgn file for the game that was previously posted) and
>> appears to me to be the preferred line.
>
>There is a line where The King disagrees with a white move, don't remember
>what it was. I can look it after if there is need for. I think it was
>31.Qb2 which is much worse than the Kings suggestion.
>
>
>
Please show the line you are suggesting as an improvement for white.
Thanks,
Wang...@aol.com
WangHeng
>From: Har...@t-online.de
>Date: 8/2/98 2:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: <6ps5nt$tll$2...@news02.btx.dtag.de>
>
>> >> Doesn't 26...b4 also win? That is what the Power Chess Queen plays
>> >> from a setup of the position.
>> >> Komputer Korner
>> >
>> >That's what the King also sees with +1.xx. I don't see any advantage in
>> >26...Bb4.
>> >
>>
>> Then you obviously haven't even looked at the actual game which is
>> included in your own posted reply! The advantage of 26...Bb4 is clearly
>> shown in the game!
>
>For 26...Bb4 is found in more than an hour while we look at it for 10mins
>this is out of discussion. Who wants to can look or let look his
>program(s) for such a waste of time, I don't.
>
>
>
Gee Harald, since you feel that way--I know of several programs that can
find inferior moves in even less time. :-)
WangHeng
>From: Har...@t-online.de
>Date: 8/2/98 2:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>
>
>quoting a mail from mcl...@prima.ruhr.de concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98
>sacs bishop
>
>
>> >> Doesn't 26...b4 also win? That is what the Power Chess Queen plays
>> >> from a setup of the position.
>> >> Komputer Korner
>>
>> >That's what the King also sees with +1.xx. I don't see any advantage in
>> >26...Bb4.
>>
>> I am not interested in b4 !
>>
>> Believe me, the reason your king or queen plays b4 is, it has not yet
>> found Bb4 Qc1 Bxa3.
>
>Because ...b4 is better. ;-)
>
>
>Harald Faber
>
Please post your analysis showing why you think b4 is better than Bb4.
Thanks,
Wang...@aol.com
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from wang...@aol.com concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> >> >> Doesn't 26...b4 also win? That is what the Power Chess Queen plays
> >> >> from a setup of the position.
> >> >> Komputer Korner
> >>
> >> >That's what the King also sees with +1.xx. I don't see any advantage in
> >> >26...Bb4.
> >>
> >> It is all very nice that you want to tell me about b4.
> >> I am not interested in b4 !
> >>
> >> Believe me, the reason your king or queen plays b4 is, it has not yet
> >> found Bb4 Qc1 Bxa3.
> >
> >Because ...b4 is better. ;-)
> >
> (rest of post deleted)
> >
> >Harald Faber
> >
> Please post your analysis showing why you think b4 is better than Bb4.
OK, maybe not better, but 26...b4 at least is as strong for the following
line seems promising: 26...b4 27.Qb3 Qb5 28.a4 Qb6 29.Kb1 c5! (+1.92 at
depth 4/10).
Harald Faber
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from wang...@aol.com concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> >> I disagree. I don't see how b4 "wins"? The bishop sac obviously
> >> wins
> >> (as shown by the pgn file for the game that was previously posted) and
> >> appears to me to be the preferred line.
> >
> >There is a line where The King disagrees with a white move, don't remember
> >what it was. I can look it after if there is need for. I think it was
> >31.Qb2 which is much worse than the Kings suggestion.
> >Harald Faber
> >
> Please show the line you are suggesting as an improvement for white.
>
> Thanks,
Sorry, I misinterpreted the King's eval. It was -0.77 at depth 5/10 after
15min with pv 31.Rdh1 Rxa3+ 32.Qxa3 Qxa3+ 33.Kb1 but of course the eval is
not accurate and white is lost.
Harald Faber
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from mcl...@prima.ruhr.de concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> >"DarkThought" finds Bb4 with the subsequent bishop-sacrifice in its PV
> >in iteration #14 after 2 minutes on a 600MHz Alpha-21164a.
>
> WOW !! Thats really fast !!
> My wchess 1.04 makes 70.-100.000 NPS and need to come into #14 it.
> too. As I said it needs 3902 ". You are 32 times faster !!!!!
>
> This was always the strength of Kittinger programs, to come with nice
> sacs and nice temptations. This is the old kittinger style.
You interpret too much in a move found in more than 1h.
Harald Faber
WangHeng
>From: Har...@t-online.de
>Date: 8/3/98 12:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <6q3oic$at$4...@news00.btx.dtag.de>
>
>
>quoting a mail from wang...@aol.com concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98
>sacs bishop
>
>
much more than a pawn advantage in the above line. Could you extend the
analysis out further to verify the nearly 2 pawns advantage claimed?
By the way, can't white do better than 29.Kb1? 29.Rge1 seems to save a
pawn and give Black less than a full pawn advantage.
Olaf
I had to test it with Hiarcs 6 and Fritz 5, but I had not the time to wait
for them to do the best move (probably 26...Bb4 ), but Hiarcs came up with
another solution that looks pretty good to, 26...Bd6! If 27.Qxa5 Qxa5
28.Bxa5 Rxe3 looks like an easy win for black!
I think 26...b4 is at best the third best solution in the position.
Is it the null move stuff that keeps the progs like Fritz from seeing
26...Bb4 and 27...Bxa3 as it seems to keep holding on to b4 long after they
should see that its not the best move?
Torstein
mclane wrote in message <6ps5rv$830$1...@steve.prima.ruhr.de>...
>"Komputer Korner" <kor...@netcom.ca> wrote:
>
>>Doesn't 26...b4 also win? That is what the Power Chess Queen plays
>>from a setup of the position.
>
>>>[Event "?"]
>>>[Site "mail-chess"]
>>>[Date "????.??.??"]
>>>[Round "?"]
>>>[White "Opponent"]
>>>[Black "Mclane"]
>>>[Result "0-1"]
>>>
>>>1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. f4 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. e3 c6 6. Ne5 Ne4 7. Nxe4
>>>Bxe4 8. Qd2
>>>Be7 9. Rg1 Nd7 10. Bd3 Nf6 11. g4 Bxd3 12. cxd3 Nd7 13. g5 Qb6 14.
>>Qc2
>>>g6 15.
>>>Nxd7 Kxd7 16. Bd2 h6 17. h4 hxg5 18. hxg5 Rh2 19. O-O-O Rah8 20. Qc3
>>>R8h3 21.
>>>Kb1 Qb5 22. Ka1 a5 23. a3 b6 24. Ka2 Qa4 25. Kb1 b5 26. Ka2 Bb4 27.
>>>Qc1 Bxa3
>>>28. bxa3 Rxe3 29. Rh1 b4 30. Rxh2 Rxd3 31. Qb2 Rxa3+ 32. Qxa3 Qxa3+
>>>33. Kb1
>>>Qd3+ 34. Kb2 Qxd4+ 35. Ka2 c5 36. Re1 c4 0-1
>>>
>>>The move you have to find is 26...Bb4 and 27...Bxa3.
>
>
>
>
>best wishes
>
>mclane
>
Har...@t-online.de
BTW MCP7 finds 26...Bb4 after 68min which is only 4080sec and not relevant
slower than your highly praised WChess.
Still questions?
Harald Faber
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from wang...@aol.com concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> >> Please post your analysis showing why you think b4 is better than
> >> Bb4.
> >
> >OK, maybe not better, but 26...b4 at least is as strong for the following
> >line seems promising: 26...b4 27.Qb3 Qb5 28.a4 Qb6 29.Kb1 c5! (+1.92 at
> >depth 4/10).
> >
> >Harald Faber
> >
> I'm not sure the above evaluation is correct. Black doesn't seem to
> have much more than a pawn advantage in the above line. Could you extend
> the analysis out further to verify the nearly 2 pawns advantage claimed?
OK.
> By the way, can't white do better than 29.Kb1? 29.Rge1 seems to save a
> pawn and give Black less than a full pawn advantage.
No problem, I waited for an alternative, I'll check this too.
BTW what about others analyzing a little further, ie if 28.a4 and 29.Kb1
are good moves, which alternative etc.?
Harald Faber
mclane
>Is it the null move stuff that keeps the progs like Fritz from seeing
>26...Bb4 and 27...Bxa3 as it seems to keep holding on to b4 long after they
>should see that its not the best move?
Wchess seems to have a special extension for those positions.
I have checked this with USCF chess. It does NOT find the bb4.
I guess dave has changed this part of the engine in later versions.
So maybe powerchess and uscf-chess do not find it because their
extensions has changed.
BTW: will there be a patch for uscf chess ?
KK - couldn't you make some pressure that we get a patch for uscf ?!
I think the program would be very good if it would not often move
instantly or force the engine to move instantly without having thought
much on a move. This is definetely a bug that weakens the whole
software. The engine itself seems ok. It seems to be an interface
problem. But when they fix it, uscf chess could really a state of the
art kittinger program, because it is later engine and tablebases and
bigger book.
How can we force Interplay to produce a bug-fix ? I mean, we are all
legal customers. In the moment the program looks pretty senseless when
it sometimes makes a mili-second move that is a complete blunder,
although you told it to 40/120 consider about the move ...
best wishes
mclane
mclane
>You interpret too much in a move found in more than 1h.
>BTW MCP7 finds 26...Bb4 after 68min which is only 4080sec and not relevant
>slower than your highly praised WChess.
>Still questions?
>Harald Faber
Oh - this is nice !
And new to me !!
I guess that shows that Mchess7 is good too!
My "highly praised" Wchess has done a very very good job by finding
Bb4. This program is from 1995 and was never tested by the ssdf-guys
on 200 Mhz machines... what a pity.
Are you jealous on Wchess ?! W-M-chess, the same character, find same
moves....
best wishes
mclane
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from mcl...@prima.ruhr.de concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> >"DarkThought" finds Bb4 with the subsequent bishop-sacrifice in its PV
> >in iteration #14 after 2 minutes on a 600MHz Alpha-21164a.
>
> WOW !! Thats really fast !!
> My wchess 1.04 makes 70.-100.000 NPS and need to come into #14 it.
> too. As I said it needs 3902 ". You are 32 times faster !!!!!
>
> This was always the strength of Kittinger programs, to come with nice
> sacs and nice temptations. This is the old kittinger style.
MCP7 finds 26...Bb4 after 68min which is only 4080sec and not relevant
slower than your highly praised WChess.
Rebel9 has no idea after 2h, Fritz5 needs 193sec, Junior 4.6 needs 37sec!
Still questions?
Harald Faber
Torstein
I did not get Fritz 5 or Hiarcs 6 to play 26...Bb4 after 20 minutes. What
hardware are you using. PIII 2000Mhz?
Torstein
>Still questions?
>
>
>Harald Faber
>
Torstein
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from mcl...@prima.ruhr.de concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> >You interpret too much in a move found in more than 1h.
> >BTW MCP7 finds 26...Bb4 after 68min which is only 4080sec and not relevant
> >slower than your highly praised WChess.
> >Still questions?
> >Harald Faber
>
> Oh - this is nice !
> And new to me !!
Oh, I thought you have MCP7 too?
> I guess that shows that Mchess7 is good too!
MCP7 is beside the King and Hiarcs my favourite program!
> My "highly praised" Wchess has done a very very good job by finding
> Bb4. This program is from 1995 and was never tested by the ssdf-guys
> on 200 Mhz machines... what a pity.
Like Genius2/3 and Chessmaster 4000/5000... =:-|
> Are you jealous on Wchess ?!
I am never jealous of chess programs with absolutely annoying and
unacceptable copy protection.
> W-M-chess, the same character, find same moves....
Harald Faber
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from tors...@1online.no concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> >> >"DarkThought" finds Bb4 with the subsequent bishop-sacrifice in its PV
> >> >in iteration #14 after 2 minutes on a 600MHz Alpha-21164a.
> >>
> >> WOW !! Thats really fast !!
> >> My wchess 1.04 makes 70.-100.000 NPS and need to come into #14 it.
> >> too. As I said it needs 3902 ". You are 32 times faster !!!!!
> >>
> >> This was always the strength of Kittinger programs, to come with nice
> >> sacs and nice temptations. This is the old kittinger style.
> >
> >MCP7 finds 26...Bb4 after 68min which is only 4080sec and not relevant
> >slower than your highly praised WChess.
> >Rebel9 has no idea after 2h, Fritz5 needs 193sec, Junior 4.6 needs 37sec!
>
> I did not get Fritz 5 or Hiarcs 6 to play 26...Bb4 after 20 minutes. What
> hardware are you using. PIII 2000Mhz?
AMD-K6-200 with 44MB hash, time set to maximum and start thinking.
Hiarcs6 indeed doesn't see ...Bb4, but I was also surprised when Junior4.6
found the move so fast and so I expected that Fritz5 doesn't need much
longer for it is a "petit combination" that tactical strong programs
should find. I'd expect Genius3-5 also not to take much time for ...Bb4.
Little correction: Junior 4.6 needs only 20sec in analyze mode and the
eval increases at each further ply, starting at ply12 with +0.71 over
+1.02 to +1.32 at ply 16.
I checked Fritz5 again, same result. Analyze mode after 3min16 at ply 14/
36 (...Bb4 seems to be a ply14-move...) eval +1.59, keeping the move, at
ply 15/39 (9min31) +1.84 without changing to ...b4.
Harald Faber
mclane
>MCP7 finds 26...Bb4 after 68min which is only 4080sec and not relevant
>slower than your highly praised WChess.
>Rebel9 has no idea after 2h, Fritz5 needs 193sec, Junior 4.6 needs 37sec!
>Still questions?
When I played this game, junior and fritz5 were not born. But you see:
the position seems to be ok.
This shows that both programs have good extensions to be finders.
>Harald Faber
best wishes
mclane
Torstein
>
>quoting a mail from tors...@1online.no concerning Re: Wchess /
PowerChess98 sacs bishop
>
>
>> >> >"DarkThought" finds Bb4 with the subsequent bishop-sacrifice in its
PV
>> >> >in iteration #14 after 2 minutes on a 600MHz Alpha-21164a.
>> >>
>> >> WOW !! Thats really fast !!
>> >> My wchess 1.04 makes 70.-100.000 NPS and need to come into #14 it.
>> >> too. As I said it needs 3902 ". You are 32 times faster !!!!!
>> >>
>> >> This was always the strength of Kittinger programs, to come with nice
>> >> sacs and nice temptations. This is the old kittinger style.
>> >
>> >slower than your highly praised WChess.
>> >Rebel9 has no idea after 2h, Fritz5 needs 193sec, Junior 4.6 needs
37sec!
>>
What
>> hardware are you using. PIII 2000Mhz?
>
>AMD-K6-200 with 44MB hash, time set to maximum and start thinking.
>Hiarcs6 indeed doesn't see ...Bb4, but I was also surprised when Junior4.6
>found the move so fast and so I expected that Fritz5 doesn't need much
>longer for it is a "petit combination" that tactical strong programs
>should find. I'd expect Genius3-5 also not to take much time for ...Bb4.
>Little correction: Junior 4.6 needs only 20sec in analyze mode and the
>eval increases at each further ply, starting at ply12 with +0.71 over
>+1.02 to +1.32 at ply 16.
>I checked Fritz5 again, same result. Analyze mode after 3min16 at ply 14/
>36 (...Bb4 seems to be a ply14-move...) eval +1.59, keeping the move, at
>ply 15/39 (9min31) +1.84 without changing to ...b4.
>
>
>Harald Faber
>
Memory obviously makes Fritz fly. I analysed with 24MB hash and my AMD K6
200Mhz for 15min at ply 15 and Fritz had not 26...Bb4 as first move yet.
Perhaps I ( or you ) did something wrong. I will try it again!
Torstein
MichaelJFox
thread started, could you please give the moves leading up to/the position before 26...Bb4. I
would like to follow this discussion, if I only could... :--)
Thanks.
mclane wrote:
>
> Har...@t-online.de wrote:
>
> >MCP7 finds 26...Bb4 after 68min which is only 4080sec and not relevant
> >slower than your highly praised WChess.
> >Rebel9 has no idea after 2h, Fritz5 needs 193sec, Junior 4.6 needs 37sec!
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from tors...@1online.no concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> >> I did not get Fritz 5 or Hiarcs 6 to play 26...Bb4 after 20 minutes.
> What
> >> hardware are you using. PIII 2000Mhz?
> >
> >AMD-K6-200 with 44MB hash, time set to maximum and start thinking.
> >Hiarcs6 indeed doesn't see ...Bb4, but I was also surprised when Junior4.6
> >found the move so fast and so I expected that Fritz5 doesn't need much
> >longer for it is a "petit combination" that tactical strong programs
> >should find. I'd expect Genius3-5 also not to take much time for ...Bb4.
> >Little correction: Junior 4.6 needs only 20sec in analyze mode and the
> >eval increases at each further ply, starting at ply12 with +0.71 over
> >+1.02 to +1.32 at ply 16.
> >I checked Fritz5 again, same result. Analyze mode after 3min16 at ply 14/
> >36 (...Bb4 seems to be a ply14-move...) eval +1.59, keeping the move, at
> >ply 15/39 (9min31) +1.84 without changing to ...b4.
> >Harald Faber
> Memory obviously makes Fritz fly. I analysed with 24MB hash and my AMD K6
> 200Mhz for 15min at ply 15 and Fritz had not 26...Bb4 as first move yet.
> Perhaps I ( or you ) did something wrong. I will try it again!
> Torstein
Tell me.
BTW do you setup the position or load the pgn? Sometimes you get different
results when you let analyze from a setup position and from game notation.
Harald Faber
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from mcl...@prima.ruhr.de concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> >MCP7 finds 26...Bb4 after 68min which is only 4080sec and not relevant
> >slower than your highly praised WChess.
> >Rebel9 has no idea after 2h, Fritz5 needs 193sec, Junior 4.6 needs 37sec!
> >Still questions?
>
> When I played this game, junior and fritz5 were not born. But you see:
> the position seems to be ok.
> This shows that both programs have good extensions to be finders.
Amazing that the King doesn't find it in >30min.
Harald Faber
Bernhard Bauer
Ernst A. Heinz wrote:
> Thorsten Czub wrote:
>
> > [...]
> >
> > The position is very difficult. I doubt if any other program finds Bb4
> > with the following bishop-sacrifice.
>
> "DarkThought" finds Bb4 with the subsequent bishop-sacrifice in its PV
> in iteration #14 after 2 minutes on a 600MHz Alpha-21164a.
>
> =Ernst=
Here is some output from Crafty 15.17 (2 cpus) on a PPro 233 MHz
12-> 2:30 0.48 1. ... b4 2. Qb3 Qxb3+ 3. Kxb3 c5 4.
dxc5 Bxc5 5. Rge1 d4 6. exd4 Rxd3+
7. Bc3 Rxd1 8. Rxd1 Bd6 9. Rd2
13 2:57 0.38 1. ... b4 2. Qb3 Qxb3+ 3. Kxb3 c5 4.
dxc5 Bxc5 5. Rge1 d4 6. exd4 Rxd3+
7. Bc3 Rxd1 8. Rxd1 Bd6 9. Rd2 Rxd2
10. Bxd2 bxa3 11. bxa3
13 3:49 0.48 1. ... Re2 2. Qc1 b4 3. Rge1 Rxe1 4.
Rxe1 bxa3 5. b3 Qb5 6. Qc2 Bb4 7. Rc1
Rh2 8. Rd1 Bxd2 9. Rxd2 Rxd2 10. Qxd2
13-> 7:28 0.48 1. ... Re2 2. Qc1 b4 3. Rge1 Rxe1 4.
Rxe1 bxa3 5. b3 Qb5 6. Qc2 Bb4 7. Rc1
Rh2 8. Rd1 Bxd2 9. Rxd2 Rxd2 10. Qxd2
14 11:09 0.52 1. ... Re2 2. Qc1 b4 3. Rge1 Rxe1 4.
Rxe1 bxa3 5. b3 Qb5 6. Qc2 Bb4 7. Bc3
c5 8. Re2 cxd4 9. Bxd4
14 19:23 0.80 1. ... Bb4 2. Qc1 Bxa3 3. bxa3 Rxe3
4. Rh1 Rxh1 5. Rxh1 Rxd3 6. Kb1 Qxd4
7. Rh2 Rxa3 8. Qxa3 Qg1+ 9. Kc2 Qxh2
10. Qxa5
14-> 20:17 0.80 1. ... Bb4 2. Qc1 Bxa3 3. bxa3 Rxe3
4. Rh1 Rxh1 5. Rxh1 Rxd3 6. Kb1 Qxd4
7. Rh2 Rxa3 8. Qxa3 Qg1+ 9. Kc2 Qxh2
10. Qxa5
15 22:34 1.04 1. ... Bb4 2. Qc1 Bxa3 3. bxa3 Rxe3
4. Rh1 Rxh1 5. Rxh1 Rxd3 6. Re1 b4
7. Re3 b3+ 8. Kb1 Qxd4 9. Re2 Qc4
15-> 38:21 1.04 1. ... Bb4 2. Qc1 Bxa3 3. bxa3 Rxe3
4. Rh1 Rxh1 5. Rxh1 Rxd3 6. Re1 b4
7. Re3 b3+ 8. Kb1 Qxd4 9. Re2 Qc4
16 40:57 ++ 1. ... Bb4!!
16 45:34 1.44 1. ... Bb4 2. Qc1 Bxa3 3. bxa3 Rxe3
4. Rh1 b4 5. Rxh2 Rxd3 6. Rdh1 Rxa3+
7. Qxa3 Qxa3+ 8. Kb1 Qd3+ 9. Kc1 Ke7
10. Kd1 Qxd4 11. Rh7
time: 60:01 cpu:199% mat:0 n:753394866 nps:209204
ext-> checks:39951216 recaps:3131866 pawns:989854 1rep:7370934
predicted:0 nodes:753394866 evals:146807189
endgame tablebase-> probes done: 0 successful: 0
hashing-> trans/ref:24% pawn:3% used:w99% b99%
Black(1): Bb4
So Crafty takes 19:23 min to find Bb4-Bxa3
Kind regards
Bernhard
mclane
>> I guess that shows that Mchess7 is good too!
>MCP7 is beside the King and Hiarcs my favourite program!
But when I played this game, mchess 7 was not born.
>I am never jealous of chess programs with absolutely annoying and
>unacceptable copy protection.
The only kittinger that works. The only kittinger we have.
PowerChess and USCF do not work.
best wishes
mclane
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from m...@netcom.ca concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> I'm not too familiar with Deja... While I'm trying to figure out how to zero
> in on where this thread started, could you please give the moves leading up
> to/the position before 26...Bb4. I would like to follow this discussion, if
> I only could... :--) Thanks.
Just search for the thread as you read above.
> > >MCP7 finds 26...Bb4 after 68min which is only 4080sec and not relevant
> > >slower than your highly praised WChess.
> > >Rebel9 has no idea after 2h, Fritz5 needs 193sec, Junior 4.6 needs 37sec!
> > >Still questions?
> >
> > When I played this game, junior and fritz5 were not born. But you see:
> > the position seems to be ok.
> > This shows that both programs have good extensions to be finders.
Harald Faber
WangHeng
>From: MichaelJFox <m...@netcom.ca>
>Date: 8/6/98 2:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <35C978...@netcom.ca>
>
>I'm not too familiar with Deja... While I'm trying to figure out how to zero
>in on where this
>thread started, could you please give the moves leading up to/the position
>before 26...Bb4. I
>would like to follow this discussion, if I only could... :--)
> Thanks.
>
[Event "?"]
[Site "mail-chess"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Opponent"]
[Black "Mclane"]
[Result "0-1"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. f4 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. e3 c6 6. Ne5 Ne4 7. Nxe4 Bxe4 8. Qd2
Be7 9. Rg1 Nd7 10. Bd3 Nf6 11. g4 Bxd3 12. cxd3 Nd7 13. g5 Qb6 14.Qc2 g6
15.Nxd7 Kxd7 16. Bd2 h6 17. h4 hxg5 18. hxg5 Rh2 19. O-O-O Rah8 20. Qc3 R8h3
21.Kb1 Qb5 22. Ka1 a5 23. a3 b6 24. Ka2 Qa4 25. Kb1 b5 26.Ka2 Bb4 27.Qc1 Bxa3
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from bba...@iag.uni-stuttgart.de concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> > "DarkThought" finds Bb4 with the subsequent bishop-sacrifice in its PV
> > in iteration #14 after 2 minutes on a 600MHz Alpha-21164a.
> > =Ernst=
>
> Here is some output from Crafty 15.17 (2 cpus) on a PPro 233 MHz
> 14 19:23 0.80 1. ... Bb4 2. Qc1 Bxa3 3. bxa3 Rxe3
> 4. Rh1 Rxh1 5. Rxh1 Rxd3 6. Kb1 Qxd4
> 7. Rh2 Rxa3 8. Qxa3 Qg1+ 9. Kc2 Qxh2
> 10. Qxa5
> time: 60:01 cpu:199% mat:0 n:753394866 nps:209204
Wow, 3-4x faster than my computer...
> So Crafty takes 19:23 min to find Bb4-Bxa3
As I supposed it really seems to need a ply14-search, although it doesn't
help Rebel.
I am waiting on input from Nimzo98, Genius3-5, VCII and Shredder2.
Harald Faber
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from mcl...@prima.ruhr.de concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> >> I guess that shows that Mchess7 is good too!
> >MCP7 is beside the King and Hiarcs my favourite program!
> But when I played this game, mchess 7 was not born.
But now you have MCP7 too and should appreciate it! :)
> >I am never jealous of chess programs with absolutely annoying and
> >unacceptable copy protection.
>
> The only kittinger that works. The only kittinger we have.
> PowerChess and USCF do not work.
No problem for me, there are enough good alternatives.
BTW i saw an e-mail of you adressed to me but my newsreader somehow didn't
sort it in so this e-mail of about 20kB disappeared. Ah, I found it in a
messagebase but can't answer. Would you please send it again?
BTW did you copy the tablebases for MCP7 or do you use them in MCP?
Harald Faber
mclane
>No problem for me, there are enough good alternatives.
>BTW i saw an e-mail of you adressed to me but my newsreader somehow didn't
>sort it in so this e-mail of about 20kB disappeared. Ah, I found it in a
>messagebase but can't answer. Would you please send it again?
maybe it was information standing etc about my summer-tournament ?!
>BTW did you copy the tablebases for MCP7 or do you use them in MCP?
when mchess7 plays, it gets tablebases in my tournament.
they are copied on the hd, so that crafty, mchess and others can use
them...
Torstein
Torstein
Har...@t-online.de wrote in message <6qbnv5$9iq$3...@news02.btx.dtag.de>...
>
>quoting a mail from tors...@1online.no concerning Re: Wchess /
PowerChess98 sacs bishop
>
>
Har...@t-online.de
quoting a mail from tors...@1online.no concerning Re: Wchess / PowerChess98 sacs bishop
> I did a setup.
> Torstein
Take the PGN and try again.
Harald Faber