13 WMCCC Jakarta
Tony Marsland
WORLD MICROCOMPUTER CHESS CHAMPIONSHIP 1996
We have noticed that the choice of Jakarta as the venue for the 1996
World Microcomputer Chess Championship has met with a certain amount of
controversy. Some people have asked the question "Why choose Jakarta?" The
answer is simple.
The ICCA's policy (as restated in the March 1996 issue of the ICCA
Journal in the article "The Future of Computer Chess") for selecting the
venue for an event has always been to accept the first offer which meets our
financial terms. We feel this is less divisive than FIDE's method which is
to "auction" events to the highest bidder. In the case of the 1996 WMCCC
there was only one offer - Jakarta. This offer included the provision of
twenty-four round-trip air tickets, plus a special room rate in a 4-star
hotel for the participants. Thus we could put on an event under conditions
that were comparable to the highly successful 8th triennial World Computer
Chess Championship in Hong Kong (May 1995).
Having only one offer on the table for the microcomputer championship the ICCA,
not unreasonably in our view, accepted it.
Being a non-political organisation we act accordingly.
Tony Marsland: ICCA President
David Levy: Vice President
PS
We did learn one political point from this event. It came as a surprise
to us that participants from Russia and Israel would require personal
visas. When we tried to secure a personal invitation for an Israeli
team we were advised that Indonesia did not recognize Israel. To cut a
long story short we were unable to get any kind of an invitation for the
Israeli participants, let alone a warm welcome. We learned this more
than a month after signing the contract.
Since the contract did not contain any requirements regarding visas (we have
never experienced this problem before) we had no legal basis for
cancellation. In future we will always stipulate in the contract with
the hosts that all qualified participants must be granted visas.
Don Fong
In article <517ud7$8...@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>,
Tony Marsland <to...@cs.ualberta.ca> wrote:
>To cut a
>long story short we were unable to get any kind of an invitation for the
>Israeli participants, let alone a warm welcome.
does anyone still disagree with my characterization of this
event as a sham?
>We learned this more than a month after signing the contract.
>Since the contract did not contain any requirements regarding visas (we have
>never experienced this problem before) we had no legal basis for
>cancellation.
but you do now. according to the David Levy memo posted by
Chris Whittington, Jakarta has defaulted its contractual obligation
to deliver the round trip plane tickets into your hands by september 7.
therefore i think it would be wholly appropriate to abort this
ill-starred fiasco, and solicit new bids on an expedited basis.
or perhaps pursue the possibility of an internet based event
as suggested by various netters.
--
--- don fong ``i still want the peace dividend''
--
Martin Zentner
Hi,
I guess the ICCA gave the wrong number. Last year's WMCCC at
Paderborn was #13, right ?
My argument for stopping the discussion about "Should Jakarta be
cancelled ?"
It's always a drawback for the sport, if an event is boycotted (hope
this verb exists, if not, you know what I mean :-)
[Just think about the olympic games at Moscow and Los Angeles !
I guess that -if you search intensively enough in the files of AI-
you could find "reasons" for boycotting any country, includíng
Germany and the US. Sport should not be mixed with politics !]
Just my $0.02
Looking forward to a great tourney at Jakarta
-Martin Zentner
(definetely participating at Jakarta with his program XXXX 2.0)
Chris Whittington
I know what you mean, and I'm really sad to not be going anymore.
But, when they ban programmers because of their Jewishness, it
seems to be time to call a halt.
I was thinking of writing, 'suppose they said no blacks ?', but
given the history of this century 'no jews' is about as bad as
you can go.
Chris Whittington
Robert Hyatt
Chris Whittington (chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk) wrote:
Of all the things I've heard, this is likely the worst. The Ban
guys (Junior to the rest of the world) belong at the tournament,
and not letting them play is simply rediculous. I'd personally like
to ask Tony and David to simply cancel the event and lets move on to
finding another site or alternative for this year, like an internet
event.
It's astoundingly presumptuous of any country to pull this sort of
thing, and impossibly embarassing to those of use that were around at
the creation of the ICCA for it to allow this to happen without simply
saying "hell no, No Junior, No ICCA."...
Don Fong
Martin Zentner's post hasn't yet shown up at my site,
so i will respond thru Chris Whittington's post.
Martin Zentner <zen...@pike.phil.uni-passau.de> wrote:
>> My argument for stopping the discussion about "Should Jakarta be
>> cancelled ?"
To Martin Zentner: you may choose not to join the boycott,
and you may choose not to join the discussion, but you cannot end
the discussion.
>> It's always a drawback for the sport, if an event is boycotted (hope
>> this verb exists, if not, you know what I mean :-)
some things are more important than sport. like human rights IMHO.
have people already forgotten Nuremburg?
>> [Just think about the olympic games at Moscow and Los Angeles !
>> I guess that -if you search intensively enough in the files of AI-
>> you could find "reasons" for boycotting any country, includíng
>> Germany and the US.
maybe nothing is black and white, so that everything is gray;
but don't forget there is not just one shade of gray.
>>Sport should not be mixed with politics !]
oh yeah? tell that to Indonesia (who banned the Israeli team).
>> Just my $0.02
>>
>> Looking forward to a great tourney at Jakarta
true, in the absence of MCHESS, REBEL, GENIUS, CSTAL, et al,
you will have a better shot. who knows, if there are enough
chess programmers with a conscience, you might win by default.
Don Fong
In article <84263277...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Whittington <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I know what you mean, and I'm really sad to not be going anymore.
there is still time for the ICCA to find another site.
if they get moving.
>But, when they ban programmers because of their Jewishness, it
>seems to be time to call a halt.
do we know that is the case? have they also banned
non-Israeli jews? the ICCA memo implied the ban was
based on nationality, not religion or ethnicity.
>I was thinking of writing, 'suppose they said no blacks ?', but
>given the history of this century 'no jews' is about as bad as
>you can go.
well theoretically ``no Israelis'' is not exactly the same
as ``no jews'', but still IMHO neither restriction is acceptable.
Don Fong
In article <51cd0j$c...@juniper.cis.uab.edu>,
Robert Hyatt <hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu> wrote:
>I'd personally like
>to ask Tony and David to simply cancel the event and lets move on to
>finding another site or alternative for this year, like an internet
>event.
hear hear! (:-)
Mike
Don Fong <df...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in article
<51cgsu$3...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>...
> In article <84263277...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>,
> Chris Whittington <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >I know what you mean, and I'm really sad to not be going anymore.
>
> there is still time for the ICCA to find another site.
> if they get moving.
>
> >But, when they ban programmers because of their Jewishness, it
> >seems to be time to call a halt.
>[deleted]
At what point does the ICCA push financial considerations aside and admit
that Jarkarta is not only a poor choice, not only is it a terrible choice.
but to call a 'spade' a 'spade' and face up to the fact that Jakarta is
unacceptable at this point. I suggest that ICCA run the tournament on the
internet - with each site having a volunteer to ensure that the rules are
complied with or to just skip it and start over for an early one next year.
Prospectively the contract language with any host country shopuld have
some type of equal participation clause and that financial consideration
should not be strictly the only consideration - otherwise you could have a
NAZI type country theoretically holding the tournament. We cannot just put
our head in the sand and say it doesn't matter.
Kudos to Don Fong for being relentless in his PR campaign to share with us
in what's really going on Indonesia today.
brucemo
Robert Hyatt wrote:
> Of all the things I've heard, this is likely the worst. The Ban
> guys (Junior to the rest of the world) belong at the tournament,
> to ask Tony and David to simply cancel the event and lets move on to
> finding another site or alternative for this year, like an internet
> event.
Neither of us knows the whole story. I would be interested in knowing
more. I would not make a statement like this without knowing more.
bruce
Chris Whittington
hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu (Robert Hyatt) wrote:
>
> Chris Whittington (chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> : Martin Zentner <zen...@pike.phil.uni-passau.de> wrote:
> : >
> : > Hi,
> : >
> : > I guess the ICCA gave the wrong number. Last year's WMCCC at
> : > Paderborn was #13, right ?
> : >
> : > cancelled ?"
> : >
> : > It's always a drawback for the sport, if an event is boycotted (hope
> : > this verb exists, if not, you know what I mean :-)
> : > [Just think about the olympic games at Moscow and Los Angeles !
> : > I guess that -if you search intensively enough in the files of AI-
> : > you could find "reasons" for boycotting any country, includíng
> : >
> : > Just my $0.02
> : >
> : > Looking forward to a great tourney at Jakarta
> : > -Martin Zentner
> : > (definetely participating at Jakarta with his program XXXX 2.0)
> :
> :
> :
> : But, when they ban programmers because of their Jewishness, it
> : seems to be time to call a halt.
> : I was thinking of writing, 'suppose they said no blacks ?', but
> : given the history of this century 'no jews' is about as bad as
> : you can go.
> :
> : Chris Whittington
>
> Of all the things I've heard, this is likely the worst. The Ban
> guys (Junior to the rest of the world) belong at the tournament,
> and not letting them play is simply rediculous. I'd personally like
> to ask Tony and David to simply cancel the event and lets move on to
> finding another site or alternative for this year, like an internet
> event.
Agreed. Presumably the ICCA is semi-democratic and if enough of its
membership demand changes, then .....
Anyone who subscribes to the ICCA magazine is a member (including me).
So, a formal request for either a withdrawal or a pullout seems in
order.
I believe there is a German chess tourney in Paderborn soon. This
(if the organisers were willing) could be used as the structural
basis of another physical tournament site. Or, as you say, it
could be done by net.
>
> It's astoundingly presumptuous of any country to pull this sort of
> thing, and impossibly embarassing to those of use that were around at
> the creation of the ICCA for it to allow this to happen without simply
> saying "hell no, No Junior, No ICCA."...
>
Absolutely.
Not only is there now no moral basis for going.
It is now immoral to go.
I know you're not going, but that Crafty is being operated.
Since no program can be entered without programmer approval, you
have the full right to withdraw your program.
Chris Whittington
brucemo
Mike wrote:
> Prospectively the contract language with any host country shopuld have
> some type of equal participation clause and that financial consideration
> should not be strictly the only consideration - otherwise you could have a
> NAZI type country theoretically holding the tournament. We cannot just put
> our head in the sand and say it doesn't matter.
This is out of control, but it's not your fault it's out of control. Marsland's
post is misleading.
I was angry when I read Marsland's post, so I sent him mail. He called me on the
phone since then, and I've also gotten mail from Levy. I don't want to quote the
mail, or mis-quote the phone call, but it sounds like there is more to it than
this. Also, it sounds like there were other reasons why the Israelis cancelled
than simply problems arranging travel.
I recommend that people who are furious about what happened with the Israeli team
try to find out more about what is going on before going ballistic.
I'm not an apologist for the Indonesian government, but I will note that words
like "Nazi" should be used very carefully or they will be devalued in their
historical context.
bruce
brucemo
Chris Whittington wrote:
>
> hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu (Robert Hyatt) wrote:
>
> > It's astoundingly presumptuous of any country to pull this sort of
> > thing, and impossibly embarassing to those of use that were around at
> > the creation of the ICCA for it to allow this to happen without simply
> > saying "hell no, No Junior, No ICCA."...
> >
>
> Absolutely.
>
> Not only is there now no moral basis for going.
>
> It is now immoral to go.
Completely out of control. I sent mail to Bob.
bruce
Mike
brucemo <bru...@nwlink.com> wrote in article <323AFD...@nwlink.com>...
> Mike wrote:
>
> > Prospectively the contract language with any host country shopuld have
> > some type of equal participation clause and that financial
consideration
> > should not be strictly the only consideration - otherwise you could
have a
> > NAZI type country theoretically holding the tournament. We cannot just
put
> > our head in the sand and say it doesn't matter.
>
> This is out of control, but it's not your fault it's out of control.
Marsland's
> post is misleading.
Exactly what is out of control?
>
> I was angry when I read Marsland's post, so I sent him mail. He called
me on the
> phone since then, and I've also gotten mail from Levy. I don't want to
quote the
> mail, or mis-quote the phone call, but it sounds like there is more to it
than
> this. Also, it sounds like there were other reasons why the Israelis
cancelled
> than simply problems arranging travel.
>
> I recommend that people who are furious about what happened with the
Israeli team
> try to find out more about what is going on before going ballistic.
>
Everyone who was picked to go should have been allowed to go .. basically
with no if, and but's.
> I'm not an apologist for the Indonesian government, but I will note that
words
> like "Nazi" should be used very carefully or they will be devalued in
their
> historical context.
One .. I was not using the word 'NAZI' in a devalued context - I was not
saying Indonesia was being run by NAZI's - I was simply stating that a NAZI
government - like Germany in the 30's - under the current 'selection
process' utilized by the ICCA would be eligible to host the event.
Mike
>
> bruce
>
Don Fong
In article <323AFD...@nwlink.com>, brucemo <bru...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>I was angry when I read Marsland's post, so I sent him mail. He called
>me on the phone since then, and I've also gotten mail from Levy. I
>don't want to quote the mail, or mis-quote the phone call, but it sounds
>like there is more to it than this. Also, it sounds like there were
>other reasons why the Israelis cancelled than simply problems arranging
>travel.
the above sounds like pure obfuscation.
>I recommend that people who are furious about what happened with the
>Israeli team try to find out more about what is going on before going
>ballistic.
if you know more, then why not just tell us all?
>I'm not an apologist for the Indonesian government, but I will note that
>words like "Nazi" should be used very carefully or they will be devalued
>in their historical context.
good point. wouldn't you say that genocide, political repression,
and imperialism are sufficient criteria to justify the use of the
word "NAZI", at least for the purposes of comparison?
Chris Whittington
brucemo <bru...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>
> Mike wrote:
>
> > Prospectively the contract language with any host country shopuld have
> > some type of equal participation clause and that financial consideration
> > should not be strictly the only consideration - otherwise you could have a
> > NAZI type country theoretically holding the tournament. We cannot just put
> > our head in the sand and say it doesn't matter.
>
> This is out of control, but it's not your fault it's out of control. Marsland's
> post is misleading.
>
> phone since then, and I've also gotten mail from Levy. I don't want to quote the
> mail, or mis-quote the phone call, but it sounds like there is more to it than
> this. Also, it sounds like there were other reasons why the Israelis cancelled
> than simply problems arranging travel.
>
> try to find out more about what is going on before going ballistic.
>
This is quite impossible for anyone to interpret.
So, there's more to it ? But you won't say what.
But you know something we don't, so you're still going ?
This is what the Israeli team posted yesterday:
Shay Bushinsky <sh...@spl.co.il> wrote:
>
> Hello fellow programmers,
>
> On behalf of Amir Ban and myself (programmers of Junior) I would like
> to thank those of you who
> expressed their opinion against the banning of Junior from the Jakarta
> tournament.
> We can only confirm Mr. Tony Marsland's (ICCA) note that the banning of
> Junior is on the basis of
> political reasons (Indonesia not recognizing the state of Israel).
>
> We were one of the first teams who wanted to play in these
> championships but who soon found it impossible to participate indeed due
> to the ICCA mistake
> not to insist beforehand that the host country must accept all of the
> ICCA elected teams.
>
> As we gradually learn that many of the other teams will not participate
> in this tournament,
> we feel that another tournament must soon take place, giving all
> parties a chance to
> participate.
>
> We view these tournaments as a vital instrument to the advance of
> computer chess.
> In our opinion, any 2 year delay means a new generation of programs
> skipped.
> We urge to hold another tournament as soon as possible and thus to
> correct the Jakarta mistake.
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> -- Shay Bushinsky & Amir Ban,
> Tel-Aviv, Israel
>
They say they were banned for political reasons, that they wanted to
attend and play, that they applied early on, and so on.
It is unclear whether they canceled because of the ban by the
Indonesians, or whether they were formally banned; but it doesn't
seem to make any difference.
Indonesian government said 'no'.
No invitation or 'warm welcome' or visa for Israeli/jewish team.
The rest of us were asked to provide passport details. I did, I assume
everyone else did. Then we were told, not needed; presumably, this
was just to weed out the Israelis.
Islamic terrorists try the same thing on aircraft hijacks.
passports please, then they separate out the great satan passengers
(USA ones), then they go through these looking for the jewish names.
Then they have a *list*. Jews often get on lists. We need to watch
out for it.
The Indonesian government have two lists.
Invited Not invited
------- -----------
Crafty Junior
Ferret
etc. etc.
As for your 'out of control' comments. The only entities 'out of
control' appear to be non-democratic governments who think they can
do what they want, when they want it.
Of course, if you can characterise the opposing views as 'out
of control' then I suppose you are generating your own basis
for ignoring them.
Chris Whittington
Robert Hyatt
Chris Whittington (chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: brucemo <bru...@nwlink.com> wrote:
: >
:
: Oh yeah ?
:
: yabba dabba dabba dooo, I'm a nutter.
:
: Is this how you're intending to deal with arguments you
: don't like ?
:
: Chris Whittington
Not particularly. However, Bruce does have a good point. Until we know
*exactly* what went on with the "Junior" decision to not go, we probably
shouldn't be hasty in judging the ICCA.
Several issues come to mind: (and I don't know that any, all, or none
of the following contributed to the problem): (1) suppose that Junior
was not quite ready to play, so that the authors chose to not try very
hard to get there? (2) suppose that the expense is too great and they
really didn't want to spend that much money in that way? (3) Suppose
they just didn't want to play this year? (4) Suppose they were not aware
of other ways to obtain a VISA to vixit Indonesia? (5) Suppose *their*
government said "don't go"?
As you can see, there are several possible reasons why they might not
want to go. I've already provided one myself, I couldn't go because
this takes about 2 weeks right out of the middle of our Fall term here
at UAB, roughly 20% of a class. When I looked at the situation carefully,
it just didn't seem reasonable that I try to attend, and had someone not
volunteered to go in my place, Crafty would not be going. I suppose that
Junior could be operated by "proxy" just like Crafty, although it's a non-
optimal solution.
My bottom line: until, as Paul Harvey says, "we know the rest of the story,"
I'm watching and waiting. Details will eventually come out. If it turns out
that the ICCA dropped the ball, and enough are unhappy about it, the next
WMCCC event might be a no-show. If the ICCA is doing their best, even though
(possible) bad judgement led to the tournament in Jakarta, then everyone
makes a mistake here and there. This just *might* be one of those.
I've talked to Bruce about this at length. My current feeling: If Ferret
and Crafty end up playing an 11 game match in Jakarta because they are the
only two that show up, that's life. We've played 11 game matches on ICC,
we can do it there as well. I've gotten someone that has volunteered to
go, is looking forward to it, and I'm not going to disrupt his planning at
this late date. I've got someone making arrangements for a P6/200 to run
Crafty on over there, and that too is not something I want to stop, after a
lot of effort *and* money has been spent. If I thought not going would
accomplish anything, I'd cancel, but I don't believe that is the case. If
you don't like my decision, so be it. But it's *not* based on human rights
issues, rather than on doing what I believe is right for people that have
volunteered to help me at significant expense. I appreciate their support
and am not going to get wishy-washy.
BTW, Crafty's not playing because I'm hunting a "title" for it. I've already
won what I consider to be the biggest and baddest tournament twice. I'm going
(actually Crafty is going) to see how it does against other programs, and
because after last year's event, I got *lots* of prodding via the internet to
have crafty play. For those that think this event is a bust and should be
boycotted, if my participation offends you, I appologize. However, I don't
know you nearly as well as I know the volunteers that are helping me, and I
want to offend those even less. To those that think Crafty should go, you'll
get your wish, whether it wins 11 games, or loses 11 games, or something in
the middle of this. Should it be fortunate enough to win, and you want to
put an "*" by the title in your book, feel free. I, too, wish that the rest
of the commercial programs were going. This is probably just about as much
weariness as protest in my book. A yearly tournament is a difficult schedule
to handle, from playing in ACM events nearly every year for over 20 years. It
gets tiring. It becomes drudgery. It ceases to be fun. And *then* the thing
begins to die away, as in the ACM events that are now "defunct."
Computer chess is already difficult, tiring, and time-consuming. If it gets
tied to political aspirations as well, the tournaments are likely going to die
away. From a personal perspective, after watching the ACM event die, I'd like
to see the WMCCC survive, although a couple of episodes like this year will do
much to prevent that.
Should I see anything that changes my personal opinion of this event, I'll
withdraw. However, the only things I'll consider are things directly related
to the tournament, not political side-issues that are often quite emotional.
I'll watch the discussion, but so far, about 90% of the arguments are simply
repeated over and over and over. If those of us still going "have not gotten
it by now, we likely aren't going to get it after another repeat". New data
will be read by me of course, but please, to convince me not to go, it's got
to be "what's wrong with the tournament" and not "what's wrong with the
ideology of the host country's government." Personally, I don't think Crafty's
going or not going will save one life, or feed one Indonesian, or improve the
life of any oppressed person on the face of this planet. I wish Crafty were
so socially significant that it could help, but reality says otherwise...
Hal Bogner
Robert Hyatt wrote:
[snip]
> Computer chess is already difficult, tiring, and time-consuming. If it gets
> tied to political aspirations as well, the tournaments are likely going to die
> away. From a personal perspective, after watching the ACM event die, I'd like
> to see the WMCCC survive, although a couple of episodes like this year will do
> much to prevent that.
[snip]
I want to call attention to and comment on this paragraph of Bob's.
It is a damn shame that the ACM event has "died", while the WMCCC
survives.
The ACM event represents the very best aspects of the computer chess
community. IM Mike Valvo supervises play within the fairest and most
ethical framework I have ever seen aplied to any competition. Political
considerations do not come into play (though in Cape May, the organizers
were quite nervous about the potetial consequences when Deep Blue had to
forfeit a game due to machine unavailability).
On the other hand, there is an overriding commercial aspect to the WMCCC
that has in the past led to corruption of the events and resulting
titles. There is even a published account by a party to fixing results
in one WMCCC final that I can refer readers to.
Personally, I think the ICCA needs to rethink the current agenda, which
is a holdover from an earlier time. The current controversy masks
larger problems:
1. The ACM event has disappeared in favor of the annual Deep Blue -
Kasparov matches (which in themselves are good things, but should not
cause the organization to cease running their annual International
Computer Chess Championship).
2. The organization seems to exist mostly to publish a print magazine,
the printing and mailing costs of which dominate the ICCA budget (I
believe), in an era when virtually all members and a very interested
computer chess community and general public are all on the Web.
3. I am not aware of what future role the organization believes it
should fulfill after the next major milestone in their calendar occurs
(that is, when Deep Blue defeats the World Champion, when and if theis
ever does happen). In my opinion, there is still a lot of interesting
stuff going on, and more to surface in the future, but I don't see the
ICCA enabling and facilitating much else besides IBM's and commercial
micro's interests right now.
The folks who run the ICCA have both led and supported many advances in
computer chess for many years. I know many of them personally, and hold
them in high esteem. It is my personal opinion that they are tired from
years of hard work, and that a process needs to be instituted to
identify what the ICCA should be doing for the next 5 years or more, so
the current leadership can evolve and be strengthened by the addition of
enthusiastic new faces. Right now, I am afraid that the ICCA leadership
is well along the road to the kind of burn-out that overtakes many
volunteers who are left to carry on - unappreciated and relatively
unsupported - for longer than even the best of us can sustain.
Hal Bogner
h...@netcom.com
Don Fong
In article <51h5b9$c...@juniper.cis.uab.edu>,
Robert Hyatt <hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu> wrote:
>Not particularly. However, Bruce does have a good point. Until we know
>*exactly* what went on with the "Junior" decision to not go, we probably
>shouldn't be hasty in judging the ICCA.
to quote Shay Bushinsky: ``We were one of the first teams
who wanted to play in these championships but who soon found it
impossible to participate indeed due to the ICCA mistake not to
insist beforehand that the host country must accept all of the ICCA
elected teams.''
what more do you need to know?
>Several issues come to mind: (and I don't know that any, all, or none
>of the following contributed to the problem): (1) suppose that Junior
>was not quite ready to play, so that the authors chose to not try very
>hard to get there? (2) suppose that the expense is too great and they
>really didn't want to spend that much money in that way? (3) Suppose
>they just didn't want to play this year? (4) Suppose they were not aware
>of other ways to obtain a VISA to vixit Indonesia? (5) Suppose *their*
>government said "don't go"?
OK, now suppose none of the above excuses holds water (as we now
know from Shay Bushinsky's letter). would you stand by your earlier
fine words?
Robert Hyatt once said:
|Of all the things I've heard, this is likely the worst. The Ban
|guys (Junior to the rest of the world) belong at the tournament,
|and not letting them play is simply rediculous. I'd personally like
|to ask Tony and David to simply cancel the event and lets move on to
|finding another site or alternative for this year, like an internet
|event.
|
|It's astoundingly presumptuous of any country to pull this sort of
|thing, and impossibly embarassing to those of use that were around at
|the creation of the ICCA for it to allow this to happen without simply
|saying "hell no, No Junior, No ICCA."...''
>As you can see, there are several possible reasons why they might not
>want to go.
now that we have the facts, there is no need for speculation.
[...]
>My bottom line: until, as Paul Harvey says, "we know the rest of the story,"
>I'm watching and waiting. Details will eventually come out. If it turns out
>that the ICCA dropped the ball,
there is no question that ICCA dropped the ball.
>and enough are unhappy about it, the next WMCCC event might be a no-show.
is the same Bob Hyatt who just said he didn't want to
be wishy-washy?
>If the ICCA is doing their best, even though
>(possible) bad judgement led to the tournament in Jakarta, then everyone
>makes a mistake here and there. This just *might* be one of those.
IMHO the question is not whether ICCA made a mistake or whether
it was an honest mistake or how to punish ICCA for its mistake; the
question is how to correct the mistake. there is still time to find
another site. it will happen if enough participants demand it.
>I've talked to Bruce about this at length. My current feeling: If Ferret
>and Crafty end up playing an 11 game match in Jakarta because they are the
>only two that show up, that's life. We've played 11 game matches on ICC,
>we can do it there as well. I've gotten someone that has volunteered to
>go, is looking forward to it, and I'm not going to disrupt his planning at
>this late date. I've got someone making arrangements for a P6/200 to run
>Crafty on over there, and that too is not something I want to stop, after a
>lot of effort *and* money has been spent. If I thought not going would
>accomplish anything, I'd cancel, but I don't believe that is the case. If
>you don't like my decision, so be it. But it's *not* based on human rights
>issues, rather than on doing what I believe is right for people that have
>volunteered to help me at significant expense. I appreciate their support
>and am not going to get wishy-washy.
taking a principle stand is anything but wishy-washy.
i'll tell you what's wishy-washy: when on friday you say
``hell no, no Junior, no ICCA''; but then on sunday you start
grasping at straws ``maybe they didn't really want to go''.
when you make half a dozen half assed excuses. now
-that- is wishy-washy.
>BTW, Crafty's not playing because I'm hunting a "title" for it. I've already
>won what I consider to be the biggest and baddest tournament twice. I'm going
>(actually Crafty is going) to see how it does against other programs,
oh, you mean like REBEL, MCHESS, CSTAL, GENIUS, CM5K, etc?
good thinking Bob.
>and
>because after last year's event, I got *lots* of prodding via the internet to
>have crafty play. For those that think this event is a bust and should be
>boycotted, if my participation offends you, I appologize. However, I don't
>know you nearly as well as I know the volunteers that are helping me, and I
>want to offend those even less.
can't take a stand because it might offend some people?
now -that- is wishy-washy.
>To those that think Crafty should go, you'll
>get your wish, whether it wins 11 games, or loses 11 games, or something in
>the middle of this. Should it be fortunate enough to win, and you want to
>put an "*" by the title in your book, feel free. I, too, wish that the rest
>of the commercial programs were going. This is probably just about as much
>weariness as protest in my book.
? wishing and hoping does not count as a protest.
>A yearly tournament is a difficult schedule
>to handle, from playing in ACM events nearly every year for over 20 years. It
>gets tiring. It becomes drudgery. It ceases to be fun. And *then* the thing
>begins to die away, as in the ACM events that are now "defunct."
let me guess: you are really doing the Israeli team a favor
by giving them a rest.
>Computer chess is already difficult, tiring, and time-consuming.
>If it gets tied to political aspirations as well, the tournaments
are likely going to die away.
Bob, please don't try to euphemize genocide, torture, and
repression, and the exclusion of your Israeli colleagues as merely
"political" issues. they are moral issues.
>From a personal perspective, after watching the ACM event die, I'd like
>to see the WMCCC survive, although a couple of episodes like this year will do
>much to prevent that.
a few days ago you said it had outlived its usefulness. (:-)
>Should I see anything that changes my personal opinion of this event, I'll
>withdraw. However, the only things I'll consider are things directly related
>to the tournament, not political side-issues that are often quite emotional.
>
>I'll watch the discussion, but so far, about 90% of the arguments are simply
>repeated over and over and over. If those of us still going "have not gotten
>it by now, we likely aren't going to get it after another repeat". New data
>will be read by me of course, but please, to convince me not to go, it's got
>to be "what's wrong with the tournament"
well, aside from the fact that the tournament is being held in
a country where life is cheap and human rights are not respected;
and the fact that at least 4 of the top 6 commercial programs will
not be represented (thus rendering the results meaningless), i
suppose there is little wrong with the tournament.
>and not "what's wrong with the
>ideology of the host country's government." Personally, I don't think Crafty's
>going or not going will save one life, or feed one Indonesian, or improve the
>life of any oppressed person on the face of this planet.
Bob, it's like i said before: in chess, many a game has been won
by the accumulation of small advantages. none of them taken alone
is sufficient, but together they can be decisive. conversely, if
you don't seize the small advantages, you will miss many opportunities.
the same principle applies here. your decision alone is unlikely to
change the situation in indonesia, but together with millions of other
little acts of conscience, change is possible.
>I wish Crafty were
>so socially significant that it could help, but reality says otherwise...
Bob, there is still time to find another site. it will
happen if enough participants demand it. you are an influential
personality in the world of computer chess. we both know it. you
could help make a difference, but it seems you'd rather take the easy
way. the attitude that ``there is nothing i can do'' turns into
self-fulfilling prophecy. it's not so much an rationale as a
decision. IMHO that is just as lame as ``i was just following orders''.
i hope you'll change your mind.
Chris Whittington
brucemo <bru...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>
> Chris Whittington wrote:
> >
> > hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu (Robert Hyatt) wrote:
> >
> > > thing, and impossibly embarassing to those of use that were around at
> > > the creation of the ICCA for it to allow this to happen without simply
> > > saying "hell no, No Junior, No ICCA."...
> > >
> >
Robert Hyatt
Don Fong (df...@cse.ucsc.edu) wrote:
: In article <51h5b9$c...@juniper.cis.uab.edu>,
: Robert Hyatt <hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu> wrote:
: >Not particularly. However, Bruce does have a good point. Until we know
: >*exactly* what went on with the "Junior" decision to not go, we probably
: >shouldn't be hasty in judging the ICCA.
:
: to quote Shay Bushinsky: ``We were one of the first teams
: who wanted to play in these championships but who soon found it
: impossible to participate indeed due to the ICCA mistake not to
: insist beforehand that the host country must accept all of the ICCA
: elected teams.''
:
: what more do you need to know?
:
: >Several issues come to mind: (and I don't know that any, all, or none
: >of the following contributed to the problem): (1) suppose that Junior
: >was not quite ready to play, so that the authors chose to not try very
: >hard to get there? (2) suppose that the expense is too great and they
: >really didn't want to spend that much money in that way? (3) Suppose
: >they just didn't want to play this year? (4) Suppose they were not aware
: >of other ways to obtain a VISA to vixit Indonesia? (5) Suppose *their*
: >government said "don't go"?
:
: OK, now suppose none of the above excuses holds water (as we now
: know from Shay Bushinsky's letter). would you stand by your earlier
: fine words?
Yes I will. Wait about 24 hours for a post from Dr. Tony Marsland and
David Levy. I think it will answer *all* the questions, clear up all of
the misrepresentations that have been made, and perhaps bring an end to
this bickering. I have the draft of the post, but don't feel it's my
place to post it... I'll leave that to Tony or David.
After reading it, you can then feel free to continue your ranting, raving
and name-calling. And Crafty's still playing, and the sun is still going
to rise at about 6am in the morning...
Martin Zentner
Don Fong wrote:
> Martin Zentner's post hasn't yet shown up at my site,
> so i will respond thru Chris Whittington's post.
The newsfeed at our University is not one of the fastest. Sorry.
> Martin Zentner <zen...@pike.phil.uni-passau.de> wrote:
> >> My argument for stopping the discussion about "Should Jakarta be
> >> cancelled ?"
>
> To Martin Zentner: you may choose not to join the boycott,
> and you may choose not to join the discussion, but you cannot end
> the discussion.
I thought and think, that my argument was/is convincing and therefor
I expected it to end this discussion. But feel free to continue ...
> >> It's always a drawback for the sport, if an event is boycotted (hope
> >> this verb exists, if not, you know what I mean :-)
>
> some things are more important than sport. like human rights IMHO.
> have people already forgotten Nuremburg?
No they have not. [Although the club doesn't play in Germany's premiere
soccer devision any more. :-]
(I know I will get flamed for this, but I simply hate to discuss old
worldwar stuff, when I can talk about sports.)
> >> [Just think about the olympic games at Moscow and Los Angeles !
> >> I guess that -if you search intensively enough in the files of AI-
> >> you could find "reasons" for boycotting any country, includíng
> >> Germany and the US.
>
> maybe nothing is black and white, so that everything is gray;
> but don't forget there is not just one shade of gray.
Nice quote. Where is your point ??? Talking about limits/thresholds ?
When I talk about human rights I cannot compare violations in the sense
of: This violation is harder than another.
> >>Sport should not be mixed with politics !]
>
> oh yeah? tell that to Indonesia (who banned the Israeli team).
Why do I have to do things, just because others do as well ? I won't mix
politics and sport. If the Indonesian governement has a problem with
entries from Israel or other countries, that's their problem, not mine.
They should be aware, that they will get negative response to this. Of
course I feel sorry for every sportsman that cannot participate in any
event due to political restrictions, but I will certainly NEVER boycott
a sports event myself !
> >> Looking forward to a great tourney at Jakarta
>
> true, in the absence of MCHESS, REBEL, GENIUS, CSTAL, et al,
> you will have a better shot. who knows, if there are enough
> chess programmers with a conscience, you might win by default.
This is enough. So far I took this too easy, but now you bring me
in a situation, where I have to defend myself.
You should know, that every real sportsman's aim is not winning, but
participating. That's why a boycott is not acceptable for me.
You never really answered to that point! All you said was, that in your
opinion human rights are more important than sports. And I said before:
Sport should not be bothered with politics. In my eyes sport has a
unique chance to bypass political restrictions. That's why we should
try everything, to bring all teams to Jakarta !
The rest of your answer was repeating that the Israelian team was
banned, that people may have forgotten the German Nazi-regiment and
that sportsmen participating at Jakarta have no conscience!
Be assured that I won't discuss on this level of personal accusations !
I did never attack anyone in this whole thread, so why do you start to
do so ?
You shouldn't accuse and attack others while "discussing" with them.
That's exactly the way to suppress an opinion, and I assume that
everyone, who is familiar with German history, knows this.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And don't think that this is personal against you. No way !
-Martin Zentner
Don Fong
In article <51hvhm$n...@juniper.cis.uab.edu>,
Robert Hyatt <hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu> wrote:
>Don Fong (df...@cse.ucsc.edu) wrote:
>Wait about 24 hours for a post from Dr. Tony Marsland and
>David Levy. I think it will answer *all* the questions, clear up all of
>the misrepresentations that have been made, and perhaps bring an end to
>this bickering. I have the draft of the post, but don't feel it's my
>place to post it... I'll leave that to Tony or David.
thanks, i've now seen it, and i agree it raises questions about the
meaning of Tony Marsland's earlier memo which stated: ``To cut a long
story short we were unable to get any kind of an invitation for the
Israeli participants, let alone a warm welcome.'' i hope the Israeli
team will respond to it.
also, i hope there will be a discussion on the question of
whether it is perfectly acceptable to make the Israelis feel unwelcome,
and to make it more difficult for them to compete, as long as it is
not made impossible. in other words, how much discrimination is OK?
as for myself, i have always maintained that the mistreatment
of the Israeli team was not the sole reason for boycotting Jakarta.
>After reading it, you can then feel free to continue your ranting, raving
>and name-calling.
Bob, i don't object if you characterize my postings as "ranting
and raving". it just shows your lack of objectivity. but as for
name-calling, you're the one that's been doing that, not me. (eg,
when Robert Hyatt wrote: ``Jesus, what a moron.'') if you can find
any posting in this thread where i called you or any other opponent
a name, then post the quotes. (hint: don't waste your time.)
>And Crafty's still playing, and the sun is still going
>to rise at about 6am in the morning...
and all's well in the world: instead of the tournament being held
in a land of genocide, torture, repression, and anti-semitism;
it looks like maybe it'll only be genocide, torture, and repression.
happy day.
brucemo
Chris Whittington wrote:
>
> brucemo <bru...@nwlink.com> wrote:
> > This is out of control, but it's not your fault it's out of control. Marsland's
> > post is misleading.
> >
> > I was angry when I read Marsland's post, so I sent him mail. He called me on the
> > phone since then, and I've also gotten mail from Levy. I don't want to quote the
> > mail, or mis-quote the phone call, but it sounds like there is more to it than
> > this. Also, it sounds like there were other reasons why the Israelis cancelled
> > than simply problems arranging travel.
>
> This is quite impossible for anyone to interpret.
>
> So, there's more to it ? But you won't say what.
>
> But you know something we don't, so you're still going ?
I knew the approximate contents of Marsland and Levy's news release, but I didn't have
permission to say anything substantive about it. I was upset about the Israeli team not
going, so I wrote mail to Marsland requesting more info. There was a big difference
between what his original post implied, and the info I got back in response to my
request. I felt that I should say SOMETHING since it was obvious that people were
drawing conclusions beyond what Marsland and Levy had intended.
bruce
Chris Whittington
Ok, that's fair enough. But why did the ICCA put out such a misleading
post ? That they then had to 'adjust' later ?
Chris Whittington
Robert Hyatt
Don Fong (df...@cse.ucsc.edu) wrote:
: In article <51hvhm$n...@juniper.cis.uab.edu>,
Ok, how about "name calling by direct implication". Reread your posts
concerning how insensitive we all must be to go to a country that is
trying the old "genocide" approach to solving an internal problem with
its citizens. I don't consider myself insensitive at all. However, how
about these:
(BTW, the "Jesus, what a moron" was directly stimulated by your continually
trying to make it look like I was trying to paint Marty Hirsch as some sort
of commercial jerk because he chose not to attend. I pointed out, as did
others, that not attending is not a terrible thing for last year's winner,
and for about 5 or 6 posts, you continually tried to turn that into a
slam for Marty. It wasn't, and I explained that it wasn't, and to continue
to claim that it was branded you as a "jerk" in my book. Simple, direct
logic there. I said what I meant about Marty and about his not attending
this year, and there was nothing left to interpretation for most. If you
want to comment on what I say, that's fine, but don't comment on what you
want me to have said. I'm not that obtuse too often.)
Instead of questions (this one *not* by you of course) like how many lives
will be lost while this tourney is going on? How about one of the following:
(1) how many starving children in South Africa, or Taiwan, or <insert your
favorite over-populated nation here> would be saved if we donated the money
used to buy our tickets to them? After all, it's people's lives versus
a silly computer chess tournament. (2) how many people will die from
AIDS, or Muscular Dystrophy, or <insert your favorite disease here> that
might be saved if everyone donated their ticket money to research? (3) or
how many people might be saved in <your favorite cause of loss of life here>
if the money was donated to research in that field?
This can go on and on, and it sounds very much like an ultra-liberal or
socialist approach to life to say that everyone drops what they are doing
until all of the ills of the world are cured. In fact, what if you donate
the money you spend on internet access to the American Cancer Society? :)
If a particular group of programmers are having problems, I'd be hard-
pressed to support the WMCCC, but it seems that is a non-issue. I'm not
personally able to solve the world's ills, and doubt that the WMCCC is
important enough to affect anything. If you feel morally outraged by
the Indonesian government's actions, and want to boycott anything that
even remotely smells of Indonesia, you have every right to do so. If
you want to speak out against what goes on over there, ditto. For me,
it's been informative to say the least. However, don't expect me to
follow you down the boycott path any more than I expect you to follow me
down the "welfare reform path", or down the "close our borders to illegal
alien path", or down the <pick any other favorite of mine but not yours>
path. We're now into the area of political ideology and should follow
our conscience. I'm doing so. I've worked with the Cub and Boy
Scouts for over 35 years now, I've coached youth soccer and basketball
teams, I have helped charities, I donate blood, and whatever else I can
to help those that need help. I simply don't see how not going to Indonesia
helps anyone, and so far, no logical arguments to the contrary have been
forthcoming, other than the potential Junior problem that now appears to
be less significant than before. I hate to see them not go, but everyone
has the right to go or not, for whatever reasons they choose. Personally,
I reserve that same right for myself. If I'm wrong, then perhaps Crafty
will be the only program that shows up. If not, we'll see soon enough.
:
: >And Crafty's still playing, and the sun is still going
: >to rise at about 6am in the morning...
:
: and all's well in the world: instead of the tournament being held
: in a land of genocide, torture, repression, and anti-semitism;
: it looks like maybe it'll only be genocide, torture, and repression.
: happy day.
Nope, but whether we play in Jakarta, Houston, or London, nothing's going to
be changed by the twenty-something participants and where they meet to do
battle.
brucemo
Chris Whittington wrote:
> Ok, that's fair enough. But why did the ICCA put out such a misleading
> post ? That they then had to 'adjust' later ?
I believe that Marsland just made a mistake. He was trying to protect
the privacy of the people involved, and posted an explanation that was
brief to the point of being misleading.
I think that what happened is that the missing invitation wasn't from
the government, it was from the organizer. The organizer made some sort
of mistake.
I don't know what happened for sure, but I'm willing to believe that
this is a correct explanation. If you want to know more exactly,
perhaps you could email Tony Marsland.
There are still some inconsistencies between what the ICCA says and what
Bushinsky says, perhaps the next step is to talk to Bushinsky, if you
want to press this.
bruce
Robert Hyatt
Chris Whittington (chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk) wrote:
<SNIP>
:
: Ok, that's fair enough. But why did the ICCA put out such a misleading
: post ? That they then had to 'adjust' later ?
: Chris Whittington
I don't think they were misleading nearly so much as they were too
"brief". I didn't see anything in the original post that contradicted
anything in the second post, and, in fact, reading the second post I
can see what the first was saying. Unfortunately for Tony, he took one
sentence when a couple of more would have staved off a long discussion
about Junior...
Robert Hyatt
Chris Whittington
Hal Bogner <h...@best.com> wrote:
>
> Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Computer chess is already difficult, tiring, and time-consuming. If it gets
> > tied to political aspirations as well, the tournaments are likely going to die
> > away. From a personal perspective, after watching the ACM event die, I'd like
> > to see the WMCCC survive, although a couple of episodes like this year will do
> > much to prevent that.
>
When the Jakarta issue is finished, we should discuss this.
Maybe you should repost in October ?
Chris Whittington
Chris Whittington
> > post ? That they then had to 'adjust' later ?
>
> the privacy of the people involved, and posted an explanation that was
> brief to the point of being misleading.
>
> I think that what happened is that the missing invitation wasn't from
> the government, it was from the organizer. The organizer made some sort
> of mistake.
>
> I don't know what happened for sure, but I'm willing to believe that
> this is a correct explanation. If you want to know more exactly,
> perhaps you could email Tony Marsland.
>
> There are still some inconsistencies between what the ICCA says and what
> Bushinsky says, perhaps the next step is to talk to Bushinsky, if you
> want to press this.
>
> bruce
Indeed, many inconsistencies.
Between ICCA posting 1, and ICCA posting 2, and then Bushinsky.
He's posted again now.
He says he's banned.
He says he tried and met a brick wall over the visa.
We've seen the original ICCA post, clearly saying he could not
have a visa, and he wasn't welcome.
So 'maybe' he could get in on an American passport, with effort,
one member of the team, but not the other.
And then remember the last time Jews were separated by government
decree, one goes one way, one goes the other. Gas oven,
or Arbeit Macht Frei.
With a little understanding one could say this would not be their
liking.
And then he'ld be denying his nationhood. We'ld all have our
little flags, you'ld have your with the Stars and Stripes, I'ld
have mine with the Union Jack. But no Star of David for Junior.
Trivial ? Maybe, but some people die for this kind of stuff.
Israel has fought, what, six? wars in less than 40 years,
threatened with annihilation each time. Jews wore the Star of David
in yellow before they were rounded up in Germany.
If we have a little empathy perhaps we can understand, it has meaning
for them.
But, not for the Indonesians, nor, it seems for the ICCA.
His banning, and his treatment are unacceptable.
I've thought about it since the ICCA broadside.
I've thought about it since the ICCA claim that my withdrawal
was without foundation since Junior wasn't 'banned'.
I believe Bushinsky.
If they aren't allowed to go, then I'm not going either.
Chris Whittington
Chris Whittington
Martin Zentner <zen...@pike.phil.uni-passau.de> wrote:
>
>
> > >>Sport should not be mixed with politics !]
> >
> > oh yeah? tell that to Indonesia (who banned the Israeli team).
>
> Why do I have to do things, just because others do as well ? I won't mix
> politics and sport. If the Indonesian governement has a problem with
> entries from Israel or other countries, that's their problem, not mine.
> They should be aware, that they will get negative response to this. Of
> course I feel sorry for every sportsman that cannot participate in any
> event due to political restrictions, but I will certainly NEVER boycott
> a sports event myself !
>
I think this is a reasonable position to take. No mixing sport
and politics.
But, the mixing has already taken place. The Indonesian government,
by sponsoring this event in order to buy international respectability,
has put the politics in.
They didn't pay the air tickets because they'e nice guys.
They didn't provide a budget of $10,000's because they're nice guys.
They didn't subsidise the hotel because they're nice guys.
They did it to buy the participants, and, in so doing, to buy
international credibility.
Like they sometimes buy the centre pages in quality magazines or
newpapers for advertising. Full of how their banks are wonderful
and the great hydro-electric schemes and stuff (bit like the old
USSR propaganda of wheat fields and ballet dancers, only slightly
more sophisticated).
This forces you to choose, because, and make no mistake you'll be
part of their image creation, they want to buy you and me and
all the rest and show that Jakarta isn't all about riots and
police round ups and and and.
So the question isn't about you mixing sport and politics, its
about whether you want to take part in a sport/politics mix.
Anyroads, I guess you'll be going anyway, so good luck, but I won't
be there to play b8=N :)
See you in 1997.
Chris Whittington
Don Fong
In article <84297538...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Whittington <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I believe Bushinsky.
>
>If they aren't allowed to go, then I'm not going either.
i applaud the principled decision made by Chris Whittington
and by Walter Ravenek. although my main objection to the Jakarta
event is different from theirs, they are sacrificing for their
beliefs (note to Bruce Moreland, -their- beliefs, not mine).
IMHO the Jakarta event will be a sham, with the absence of
MCHESS, REBEL, GENIUS, CSTAL, HIARCS, CM5K, JUNIOR, ARTHUR,
and (? sorry if i forgot anyone). in my mind the result will
be meaningless. you could hold a stronger tournament by taking the
absentees than those attending. (:-) hmmm... :-?
Chris Whittington
Don't think Chessmaster or any versions of the King are going.
Not to mention Chessica.
Frans Morsch's Quest won't be there, although he is kind of
represented with Fritz (entered by Chessbase). One of the main UK
chess distributors told me today that 'he would be having a word
with Chessbase to see if he could get them to withdraw'. He doesn't
like the situation in Indonesia either.
We'll see.
Its become a bit of a joke really.
Quite why we don't just organise another tourney on the net
or whatever as a replacement is beyond me. But if the participants
want to go, then they want to go.
The various computer chess magazines and fanzines are going to
have a field day knocking the sham nature of WMCCC-Jakarta.
Best for the ICCA to call it off, or Gundaram University to call it
off. Unlikely, though.
Chris Whittington
Robert Hyatt
Chris Whittington (chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk) wrote:
:
: Ooooooohhhhh !!!!
:
: If, if, if, if, if ........
:
: Positioning for after the tourney, eh. ?
:
: Those going and trying for a win are getting ready to say
: they're the *real* champion .........
:
: No way, this event is a sham.
:
: WMCCC Jakarta 1996 is in history's dustbin before it started.
:
: Chris Whittington
:
Wasn't trying to say that it won't be hurt by so many not going. Just
that it's not a "weak" field by a long shot. From my experience, I'd
rather avoid Ferret than any other program there...
Bob
Peter W. Gillgasch
Hal Bogner <h...@best.com> wrote:
> Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Computer chess is already difficult, tiring, and time-consuming. If it
> > gets tied to political aspirations as well, the tournaments are likely
> > going to die away. From a personal perspective, after watching the ACM
> > event die, I'd like to see the WMCCC survive, although a couple of
> > episodes like this year will do much to prevent that.
>
> [snip]
>
> I want to call attention to and comment on this paragraph of Bob's.
>
> It is a damn shame that the ACM event has "died", while the WMCCC
> survives.
I agree on the issue of the ACM event.
> The ACM event represents the very best aspects of the computer chess
> community. IM Mike Valvo supervises play within the fairest and most
> ethical framework I have ever seen aplied to any competition. Political
> considerations do not come into play (though in Cape May, the organizers
> were quite nervous about the potetial consequences when Deep Blue had to
> forfeit a game due to machine unavailability).
Having seen Mike in action at the last WCCC at CUHK I can only agree
with that characterization of Mike's work, although I have never been at
an ACM event.
> On the other hand, there is an overriding commercial aspect to the WMCCC
> that has in the past led to corruption of the events and resulting
> titles.
Certainly there is a commercial aspect. OTOH if you study the
participant's list of the last events you will note that the
overwhelming majority of the participants are genuine amateurs or
participants who could be described as "professionals without
professional income". In the past this certainly was quite different
(the Mephisto versus Fidelity or the Fidelity versus Novag events come
to mind).
Having said that I would suggest not to make any conclusions from the
past since there has been a big change recently. True, the commercial
aspect still exists but with so many genuine amateur programs
"corruption" is no longer possible.
> There is even a published account by a party to fixing results
> in one WMCCC final that I can refer readers to.
Please do that.
> Personally, I think the ICCA needs to rethink the current agenda, which
> is a holdover from an earlier time. The current controversy masks
> larger problems:
>
> 1. The ACM event has disappeared in favor of the annual Deep Blue -
> Kasparov matches (which in themselves are good things, but should not
> cause the organization to cease running their annual International
> Computer Chess Championship).
I agree on both points.
> 2. The organization seems to exist mostly to publish a print magazine,
> the printing and mailing costs of which dominate the ICCA budget (I
> believe), in an era when virtually all members and a very interested
> computer chess community and general public are all on the Web.
I disagree on this one. The ICCAJ in its current form (paper) is
beneficial for
(a) libraries
(b) the uninitiated potential members
(c) Members without internet access (they *do* exist)
(d) Members with internet access who prefer to have paper copies
(old-fashioned guys like me).
> 3. I am not aware of what future role the organization believes it
> should fulfill after the next major milestone in their calendar occurs
> (that is, when Deep Blue defeats the World Champion, when and if theis
> ever does happen).
This is a general problem of the community.
> In my opinion, there is still a lot of interesting
> stuff going on, and more to surface in the future,
I am also of the opinion that the community will probably not dissolve
and fade after the next major milestone was achieved and that there will
be more questions raised than answers given after that was done. But we
will probably have even harder problems justifying academic work in this
area and given the fact that one can hardly imagine how the ICCA can
exist without their acadamic framework it is quite possible that
reaching the next milestone could kill the organization.
> but I don't see the
> ICCA enabling and facilitating much else besides IBM's and commercial
> micro's interests right now.
Not at all. The current "typical" WMCCC is a threat to the commercial
micro's interests. At least 3 amateur programs could "steal" the title
from the commercial programmers during the last rounds of the 13th
WMCCC.
> The folks who run the ICCA have both led and supported many advances in
> computer chess for many years. I know many of them personally, and hold
> them in high esteem. It is my personal opinion that they are tired from
> years of hard work, and that a process needs to be instituted to
> identify what the ICCA should be doing for the next 5 years or more, so
> the current leadership can evolve and be strengthened by the addition of
> enthusiastic new faces.
It is certainly true that the ICCA needs to think what should happen
after the final battle [if it ever happens]. As you probably have noted
the last issues of the ICCAJ was full of references to exactly this
subject.
The enthusiastic new faces cannot come from an "instituted process".
Computer chess is still interesting. If you look for example at the rise
of computer chess here in Germany you will find lots of amateurs and/or
groups formed in academic institutions and their number increases every
year. The contributions in terms of providing a structure for
tournaments etc. are there as well, take for example the annual event in
Paderborn.
> Right now, I am afraid that the ICCA leadership
> is well along the road to the kind of burn-out that overtakes many
> volunteers who are left to carry on - unappreciated and relatively
> unsupported - for longer than even the best of us can sustain.
Well I appreciate them and I try to support them. Let's see, Markus and
me carried some kilogramms of back issues to Jaap's car *without* asking
for a free ICCAJ subscription in return... [We didn't ask, right ? :-) ]
I don't feel that the ICCA itself, the folks running the organization or
the ICCAJ in its paper form has outlived its purpose. It is of course an
interesting subject to discuss, but after monitoring the traffic on this
public forum lately and especially after comparing it with the statement
of the ICCA on the Jakarta tourney that was sent to the participants of
the tourney I doubt it very much that this is the correct forum for
discussing this subject - especially since only a small percentage of
members are actively participating here. Many have given up reading this
group.
-- Peter
Chris Whittington
hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu (Robert Hyatt) wrote:
>
> Don Fong (df...@cse.ucsc.edu) wrote:
> : In article <84297538...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>,
> : Chris Whittington <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> : >I believe Bushinsky.
> : >
> : >If they aren't allowed to go, then I'm not going either.
> :
> : i applaud the principled decision made by Chris Whittington
> : and by Walter Ravenek. although my main objection to the Jakarta
> : event is different from theirs, they are sacrificing for their
> : beliefs (note to Bruce Moreland, -their- beliefs, not mine).
> :
> : IMHO the Jakarta event will be a sham, with the absence of
> : MCHESS, REBEL, GENIUS, CSTAL, HIARCS, CM5K, JUNIOR, ARTHUR,
> : and (? sorry if i forgot anyone). in my mind the result will
> : be meaningless. you could hold a stronger tournament by taking the
> : absentees than those attending. (:-) hmmm... :-?
>
> I wouldn't go so far as the last sentence. Ferret's still a "bear,"
> from my vantage point. Just might be the biggest, baddest bear in
> the forest, even if all of the above were there. Check last year's
> result. It was *very* close. If ferret didn't blow out to Mchess
> Pro by a piece sac while still in book, last year's champion might
> still be going this year.
Ooooooohhhhh !!!!
If, if, if, if, if ........
Positioning for after the tourney, eh. ?
Those going and trying for a win are getting ready to say
they're the *real* champion .........
No way, this event is a sham.
WMCCC Jakarta 1996 is in history's dustbin before it started.
Chris Whittington
>
> As for those not going, that's their decision, which is exactly
> as it should be. They'll be missed by the rest, but there's
> still over 25 going...
>
>
Robert Hyatt
Don Fong (df...@cse.ucsc.edu) wrote:
: In article <84297538...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>,
: Chris Whittington <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: >I believe Bushinsky.
: >
: >If they aren't allowed to go, then I'm not going either.
:
: i applaud the principled decision made by Chris Whittington
: and by Walter Ravenek. although my main objection to the Jakarta
: event is different from theirs, they are sacrificing for their
: beliefs (note to Bruce Moreland, -their- beliefs, not mine).
:
: IMHO the Jakarta event will be a sham, with the absence of
: MCHESS, REBEL, GENIUS, CSTAL, HIARCS, CM5K, JUNIOR, ARTHUR,
: and (? sorry if i forgot anyone). in my mind the result will
: be meaningless. you could hold a stronger tournament by taking the
: absentees than those attending. (:-) hmmm... :-?
:
I wouldn't go so far as the last sentence. Ferret's still a "bear,"
from my vantage point. Just might be the biggest, baddest bear in
the forest, even if all of the above were there. Check last year's
result. It was *very* close. If ferret didn't blow out to Mchess
Pro by a piece sac while still in book, last year's champion might
still be going this year.
As for those not going, that's their decision, which is exactly
Hal Bogner
Yasser Seirawan, a very candid writer, described the fixing of the
playoff for two championship titles in the Vancouver WMCCC in an article
in Inside Chess magazine immediately after the event.
> > Personally, I think the ICCA needs to rethink the current agenda, which
> > is a holdover from an earlier time. The current controversy masks
> > larger problems:
> >
> > 1. The ACM event has disappeared in favor of the annual Deep Blue -
> > Kasparov matches (which in themselves are good things, but should not
> > cause the organization to cease running their annual International
> > Computer Chess Championship).
>
> I agree on both points.
>
> > 2. The organization seems to exist mostly to publish a print magazine,
> > the printing and mailing costs of which dominate the ICCA budget (I
> > believe), in an era when virtually all members and a very interested
> > computer chess community and general public are all on the Web.
>
> I disagree on this one. The ICCAJ in its current form (paper) is
> beneficial for
>
> (a) libraries
> (b) the uninitiated potential members
> (c) Members without internet access (they *do* exist)
> (d) Members with internet access who prefer to have paper copies
> (old-fashioned guys like me).
Your points are well taken (a,c, and d, at least; I don't agree that
uninitiated people are less likely to find something with a Web search
than by going to a library). However, this does not mean that the sole
means of distributing content should be in print. The Web allows
"unlimited printing" virtually for free, and reaches many, many people.
I also have seen organizations which have forgotten their original
purpose live on for the purpose of perpetuating their publication, and
when last I was familiar with it, the ICCA seemed to be using dues and
small donations to fund the magazine and little else. I consider the
few high=profile events that are bid out as distinct from this budget.
> > 3. I am not aware of what future role the organization believes it
> > should fulfill after the next major milestone in their calendar occurs
> > (that is, when Deep Blue defeats the World Champion, when and if theis
> > ever does happen).
>
> This is a general problem of the community.
>
> > In my opinion, there is still a lot of interesting
> > stuff going on, and more to surface in the future,
>
> I am also of the opinion that the community will probably not dissolve
> and fade after the next major milestone was achieved and that there will
> be more questions raised than answers given after that was done. But we
> will probably have even harder problems justifying academic work in this
> area and given the fact that one can hardly imagine how the ICCA can
> exist without their acadamic framework it is quite possible that
> reaching the next milestone could kill the organization.
>
> > but I don't see the
> > ICCA enabling and facilitating much else besides IBM's and commercial
> > micro's interests right now.
>
> Not at all. The current "typical" WMCCC is a threat to the commercial
> micro's interests. At least 3 amateur programs could "steal" the title
> from the commercial programmers during the last rounds of the 13th
> WMCCC.
By commercial interests, I don't mean the developers, so much as the
marketers/publishers. I suspect that of the "amateurs" you refer to,
only Crafty would resist "serving" commercial interests should it be the
winner.
Bravo! :-)
> I don't feel that the ICCA itself, the folks running the organization or
> the ICCAJ in its paper form has outlived its purpose. It is of course an
> interesting subject to discuss, but after monitoring the traffic on this
> public forum lately and especially after comparing it with the statement
> of the ICCA on the Jakarta tourney that was sent to the participants of
> the tourney I doubt it very much that this is the correct forum for
> discussing this subject - especially since only a small percentage of
> members are actively participating here. Many have given up reading this
> group.
If the organization is to be a secret society, then discussing things
here would certainly be pointless, but I think that is not the actual
case here. The ICCA must, in my opinion, utilize this public forum to
draw upon the community here on the Net who are interested in computer
chess, or else ICCA will become marginalized.
brucemo
Chris Whittington wrote:
> I think this is a reasonable position to take. No mixing sport
> and politics.
>
> But, the mixing has already taken place. The Indonesian government,
> by sponsoring this event in order to buy international respectability,
> has put the politics in.
>
> They didn't pay the air tickets because they'e nice guys.
>
> They didn't provide a budget of $10,000's because they're nice guys.
>
> They didn't subsidise the hotel because they're nice guys.
>
> They did it to buy the participants, and, in so doing, to buy
> international credibility.
Maybe they did it because the University wants to raise its profile. I don't
know why they did it. But when I asked myself, "Why would a university in
Indonesia hold a computer chess tournament?", this is the first thing that I
thought of.
A university in Hong Kong held the world championship last year, this is
probably why they did it, too. And I doubt that Paderborn did this event last
year in order to draw attention away from hate-groups in former East Germany.
bruce
bruce
Don Fong
Martin Zentner wrote:
[Don Fong wrote >>]
>> some things are more important than sport. like human rights IMHO.
>> have people already forgotten Nuremburg?
>
>No they have not. [Although the club doesn't play in Germany's premiere
>soccer devision any more. :-]
>(I know I will get flamed for this, but I simply hate to discuss old
>worldwar stuff, when I can talk about sports.)
(hey, can't say i blame you.)
[...]
>> maybe nothing is black and white, so that everything is gray;
>> but don't forget there is not just one shade of gray.
>
>Nice quote. Where is your point ??? Talking about limits/thresholds ?
>When I talk about human rights I cannot compare violations in the sense
>of: This violation is harder than another.
yes you can if you take off the blinders.
[...]
>I won't mix politics and sport.
how is it that the murder of hundreds of thousands of men, women,
and children is dismissed as mere "politics", while a board game is
elevated to the lofty status of "sport"? by this interesting
linguistic maneuver, you have placed moral concerns (which you
label as politics) subordinate to your personal ambitions (sport).
>If the Indonesian governement has a problem with
>entries from Israel or other countries, that's their problem, not mine.
someday it may be your problem too.
>They should be aware, that they will get negative response to this.
not if everyone had your attitude.
>Of course I feel sorry for every sportsman that cannot participate in any
>event due to political restrictions, but I will certainly NEVER boycott
>a sports event myself !
words that will gladden the heart of any dictator.
>> >> Looking forward to a great tourney at Jakarta
>>
>> true, in the absence of MCHESS, REBEL, GENIUS, CSTAL, et al,
>> you will have a better shot. who knows, if there are enough
>> chess programmers with a conscience, you might win by default.
>
>This is enough. So far I took this too easy, but now you bring me
>in a situation, where I have to defend myself.
please do! please do enjoy your freedom of speech.
>You should know, that every real sportsman's aim is not winning, but
>participating.
and what of moral concerns? is a sportsman not also a man?
>That's why a boycott is not acceptable for me.
? and yet it is "acceptable" to deny the Israeli team the
opportunity to participate?
>You never really answered to that point! All you said was, that in your
>opinion human rights are more important than sports.
do you disagree?
>And I said before:
>Sport should not be bothered with politics.
in your view, should sport be bothered with morality?
>In my eyes sport has a
>unique chance to bypass political restrictions. That's why we should
>try everything, to bring all teams to Jakarta !
that was tried, and the Israeli team was left out.
>The rest of your answer was repeating that the Israelian team was
>banned, that people may have forgotten the German Nazi-regiment and
>that sportsmen participating at Jakarta have no conscience!
that's not exactly what i said. but if you have an answer,
let's hear it.
>Be assured that I won't discuss on this level of personal accusations !
(never mind.)
>I did never attack anyone in this whole thread, so why do you start to
>do so ?
on the contrary, rather than condemn those who choose to attend,
i praised those who choose not to. sorry if it hurts your feelings
to be left out.
>You shouldn't accuse and attack others while "discussing" with them.
you shouldn't confuse "criticism" with "attack".
>That's exactly the way to suppress an opinion, and I assume that
>everyone, who is familiar with German history, knows this.
what part of German history do you mean? the part i am familiar
with is best known for a different method of suppressing opinion.
Chris Whittington
hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu (Robert Hyatt) wrote:
>
> Chris Whittington (chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> :
> : Ooooooohhhhh !!!!
> :
> : If, if, if, if, if ........
> :
> : Positioning for after the tourney, eh. ?
> :
> : Those going and trying for a win are getting ready to say
> : they're the *real* champion .........
> :
> : No way, this event is a sham.
> :
> : WMCCC Jakarta 1996 is in history's dustbin before it started.
> :
> : Chris Whittington
> Wasn't trying to say that it won't be hurt by so many not going. Just
> that it's not a "weak" field by a long shot. From my experience, I'd
> rather avoid Ferret than any other program there...
>
> Bob
>
I've not seen Ferret, but Bruce is a bright chap, and he's around
on ICC and rgcc, and that's a good place for picking up ideas and
generatign thoughts; plus he's working pretty much full-time on
his program, I understand. So, of course, Ferret is likely a
strong program and may well win in Jakarta. So might Fritz
or Virtua Chess or Crafty or any other.
But I think we should scotch the idea that the title WMCCC Champion
1996 Jakarta is going to have much value.
Chris Whittington
Alberto Rezza
In article <01bba2b3$f43859c0$dc06...@omni2.voicenet.com>
"Mike" <ches...@voicenet.com> wrote:
> Exactly what is out of control?
IMHO, it's the whole thread that is out of control. It started in a reasonable
way, as a discussion among sane people, but it seems that the chess
programmers have just been carried away.
Actually, I think it's getting disgusting. Here's what we have now:
1) Bob (and perhaps even Chris!) would have us believe that what
happened to the Junior team is quite all right.
No, Bob, the Indonesians did NOT say "come, come, little Jews, we'll
make soap out of you!" However, what they did to that team is still
completely unacceptable - particularly so in a sports event.
2) Then Bruce keeps talking about other people who want him to make a
sacrifice because of their ideas. I may be naive, but I would have thought
Bruce would be sacrificing something BY GOING, not by staying home.
I guess we just have different ideas about what self-respect is.
Bruce, you do well to follow your own ideas, your own conscience, and
disregard what others may say. But you are inconsistent when you insist
on the uselessness of a boycott. Apply the same principle, and learn to
do what is right even when you know it will have no effect on others
(here, on the Indonesian goverment).
3) Then, the most preposterous of all. Martin Zentner is trying to convince
us that the spirit of sports does not lie - as everyone believed - in equal
chances for EVERYONE, so that the best may win; he says it lies in
participation - meaning that one can participate while others are denied
the chance, so that HE may win.
Up to now, the discussion seems to have been limited to the
programmers. But if this is the best they can do, perhaps it's time for
users like me to join it.
All I can say is that I'll NEVER MORE buy products from programmers who
will be in Jakarta. This is of course only my persomal opinion; I don't
expect anyone to follow me in this second boycott. I'm just stating what
I'm going to do with my money.
And even if others were to share my views, the non commercial
programmers only risk their reputation... :^))
Alberto
P.S. I now have CM4000 and Genius 4; I'm planning to buy Rebel 8 also.
An applause to Ed for not going!
Chris Whittington
a.r...@mclink.it (Alberto Rezza) wrote:
>
> In article <01bba2b3$f43859c0$dc06...@omni2.voicenet.com>
> "Mike" <ches...@voicenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Exactly what is out of control?
>
> IMHO, it's the whole thread that is out of control. It started in a reasonable
> way, as a discussion among sane people, but it seems that the chess
> programmers have just been carried away.
>
> Actually, I think it's getting disgusting. Here's what we have now:
>
> 1) Bob (and perhaps even Chris!) would have us believe that what
> happened to the Junior team is quite all right.
What ??????
Do you read my posts ?
I withdrew my application to play because of the Junior banning.
Chris Whittington
brucemo
Alberto Rezza wrote:
>[snip]
>
> 2) Then Bruce keeps talking about other people who want him to make a
> sacrifice because of their ideas. I may be naive, but I would have thought
> Bruce would be sacrificing something BY GOING, not by staying home.
> I guess we just have different ideas about what self-respect is.
>
> Bruce, you do well to follow your own ideas, your own conscience, and
> disregard what others may say. But you are inconsistent when you insist
> on the uselessness of a boycott. Apply the same principle, and learn to
> do what is right even when you know it will have no effect on others
> (here, on the Indonesian goverment).
I think that a boycott is a futile gesture that hurts people who do not deserve
to be hurt. I am certain that there is much more for you to do, if you feel
passionately about this issue, than to get upset at someone else for flying there
for a competition, and that these other activities would be more personally
rewarding for you (you'd be doing something constructive, rather than writing
messages condemning something that someone else is doing), and have a greater
chance of actually making a difference. Five dollars mailed to Amnesty
International or some other appropriate international relief group would have
more direct tangible benefit than all of the talk in here so far.
If I was worried about taking heat for my actions I would have said nothing in
here, I had nothing to gain by saying anything, remember this please, if you
consider accusing me of lack of conviction.
> 3) Then, the most preposterous of all. Martin Zentner is trying to convince
> us that the spirit of sports does not lie - as everyone believed - in equal
> chances for EVERYONE, so that the best may win; he says it lies in
> participation - meaning that one can participate while others are denied
> the chance, so that HE may win.
I want to vouch for Martin Zentner, I think that participation is only serious
goal, if you've ever met Martin you would realize that it is silly to think that
his goal is specifically to benefit personally from something his program might
achieve. He is a fine human being, beyond a doubt.
> All I can say is that I'll NEVER MORE buy products from programmers who
> will be in Jakarta. This is of course only my persomal opinion; I don't
> expect anyone to follow me in this second boycott. I'm just stating what
> I'm going to do with my money.
Remember that Indonesia is not a pariah state. Perhaps it should be, but it is
not. A lot of companies do business in Indonesia, it's not just some small
island off in the boonies somewhere, there are 400 million people who live there,
and I expect that many, many companies would be unwilling to overlook such a
market. I suggest that if you really are attempting to wipe out all connection
with commercial ventures involving Indonesia, you research this further, I
suspect you will find many companies to boycott, some of whom are making
significant contribution to the maintenance of the Indonesian order.
bruce
brucemo
Chris Whittington wrote:
> And then remember the last time Jews were separated by government
> decree, one goes one way, one goes the other. Gas oven,
> or Arbeit Macht Frei.
Chris, this kind of comment is improper. You don't need to go off on Holocaust
and Nazis whenever anything happens involving Israelis or Germans. This kind
of comment doesn't make any sort of real point, and just fans flames.
bruce
Moritz Berger
Robert Hyatt <hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu> wrote in article
<51jps7$1...@juniper.cis.uab.edu>...
> Don Fong (df...@cse.ucsc.edu) wrote:
< snip >
> Instead of questions (this one *not* by you of course) like how many
lives
> will be lost while this tourney is going on? How about one of the
following:
> (1) how many starving children in South Africa, or Taiwan, or <insert
your
> favorite over-populated nation here> would be saved if we donated the
money
> used to buy our tickets to them? After all, it's people's lives versus
> a silly computer chess tournament. (2) how many people will die from
> AIDS, or Muscular Dystrophy, or <insert your favorite disease here>
that
> might be saved if everyone donated their ticket money to research? (3)
or
> how many people might be saved in <your favorite cause of loss of life
here>
> if the money was donated to research in that field?
The question you mentioned was posed by me. It was meant to make you
think about the shocking reality of what happens in Indonesia. I didn't
expect you to give me a mathematical formula. Nor did I want you to
relativate everything. Why not say: Everybody has to die sometime. This
is the ultimate legitimation to ignore everything and redirect your
consciousness to > NULL.
< snip >
> Nope, but whether we play in Jakarta, Houston, or London, nothing's
going to
> be changed by the twenty-something participants and where they meet to
do
> battle.
< snip >
The whole debate was about how things could be changed if you didn't
participate. What about getting some publicity, writing articles about it
in your local newspaper, in chess magazines etc. ? Why don't we get some
publicity out of a boycott instead of letting the Indonesian government
use the tournament for their propaganda?
In my opinion, you did the Indonesian government a big favour in your
legitimate atempt to defend yourself and your position. Let's face it:
The ICCA has been bought (with free tickets etc.). All participants who
accept the tickets are being paid by the Indonesian government to make
some propaganda for them. I will deliberately refuse to call this
prostitution - I think that you go in the good faith that it's really
"just" some kind of sports event.
The better a reputation you have for doing good deeds to your community,
the more valuable will your participation be for the Indonesian
government.
I'm sorry that your "satirical" critique above of our moral
considerations doesn't convince me (just as my statements and that of
others here didn't change your opinion).
My deep respect goes to all of you who didn't enter their programs in
this questionable tournament or withdrew. You are the true champions for
me! To question your convictions is irrelevant for me - the important
thing is that you don't go and change something with your clear statement
against the Indonesian regime. Hopefully we can publicize your decision
enough to outweight the claims of the "Jakarte WMCCC world champion".
Moritz
brucemo
Chris Whittington wrote:
> I've not seen Ferret, but Bruce is a bright chap, and he's around
> on ICC and rgcc, and that's a good place for picking up ideas and
> generatign thoughts; plus he's working pretty much full-time on
> his program, I understand. So, of course, Ferret is likely a
> strong program and may well win in Jakarta. So might Fritz
> or Virtua Chess or Crafty or any other.
A few clarifications and additions.
1) The place to learn about computer chess on ICC & Fics is channel 64. Anyone is
welcome to communicate via this channel. I'm not on ICC much these days, but this will
change in the future.
2) r.g.c.c. is a great place to ask questions.
3) I have contributed a lot of my own ideas to Ferret. I have also had a lot of help
from people who I've communicated with during the course of the last three years,
amongst them Bob Hyatt, Dave Slate, Dave Kittinger, John Stanback, Mark Lefler, Tom
Kerrigan, Peter McKenzie, Martin Borriss, Jonathan Schroer, Martin Zentner, and many
others who I've either temporarily forgotten or whose names I can't spell. I have also
had the benefit of the ideas of those who have published on this subject. In part
because of the large number of people who have helped me, I am not particularly
secretive about my program.
4) I work on Ferret in bursts, it's had very little work put into it this year, and is
essentially the same as the program that competed last year, plus a few minor
performance improvements, some bug fixes, and better hardware.
5) You are right that there are a lot of programs that can win this tournament.
bruce
Moritz Berger
Moritz Berger (me) <ber...@athene.informatik.uni-bonn.de> wrote in
article <01bba5b3$7a18df40$7ae0...@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>...
<snip>
> This
> is the ultimate legitimation to ignore everything and redirect your
> consciousness to > NULL.
read: "conscience" instead of "consciousness" (typical German "typo")
Garby Leon
East Timor: Acceptable Slaughters
Written by Joe Nunes
(this article is included here with the author's permission)
U.S. arms were used in all that and continue to be used today. There is
a degree of complicity here by the U.S. that I really find to be quite
disturbing. Rep. Donald Fraser, March, 1977
In 1975, Indonesia invaded East Timor and began one of the largest
slaughters in recent history. As of 1979, an estimated 200,000 out of a
pre-invasion population of 700,000 had been killed [TAPOL91]. Relief
officials reporting in 1979 described the situation in East Timor as
comparable to that of Cambodia [Chomsky8e].
According to the Canadian Catholic Church:
The invasion, which could have served as the model for Iraq's invasion
of Kuwait a decade-and-a-half later, has claimed the lives of 250,000
Timorese -- more than a third of the population -- through war, famine,
and an aggressive forced birth control programme said to
include forced abortions, involuntary sterilization of women, and
murder by injection of newborns in hospitals [Webster90].
The U.S. shares a great deal of responsibility for this tragedy. It
supported the Indonesian invasion, provided military assistance through
the massacre and blocked all United Nation efforts to stop the
Indonesian aggression.
1 --- Background
Until 1974, East Timor was a Portuguese colony while the western part
of the island of Timor was under Indonesian control. In April, 1974,
the Portuguese announced that independence would be granted to East
Timor. Consequently, three parties were formed to contest leadership of
the new nation: UDT, FRETILIN, APODETI. According to the _Australian_
magazine (February 26, 1975), the UDT had the support of 10% of the
population, FRETILIN had 60% support and APODETI (which was
pro-Indonesian) had 5% support. In January 1975, the UDT and
FRETILIN formed a coalition. The UDT withdrew on May 2 and staged a
coup in August which ended a few weeks later in a complete FRETILIN
victory. According to the Australian Council for Overseas Aid (AFCOA),
which visited East Timor in October, between 2,000 and 3,000 died
during the bloody civil war [ChomskyHerman79]. On November 28, 1975,
the Democratic Republic of East Timor was proclaimed in Dili [TAPOL91].
2 --- American Support for Indonesia's Invasion
On December 7, 1975, a few hours after President Ford and Henry
Kissinger had departed from a visit to Jakarta, Indonesia invaded East
Timor.
U.S. officials have falsely claimed that the U.S. was unaware of
Indonesia's intentions. Jack Anderson quoted classified U.S.
intelligence reports to the contrary. One dated September 19,
1975, described an Indonesian attack that met ``stiff resistance from
Fretilin fighters.'' Another stated that Indonesian generals were
``losing patience with President Suharto's [Indonesia`s leader]
go-slow approach to the Portuguese Timor problem and ... pressing him
to authorize direct military intervention.'' Yet another dated December
3 stated that ``ranking Indonesian civilian government leaders have
decided that the only solution in the Portuguese Timor situation is for
Indonesia to launch an open offensive against Fretilin'' [Chomsky82].
Shortly after his return from Indonesia, President Ford was interviewed
by Jack Anderson [_San Francisco Chronicle_, November 9, 1979; Blum86].
In his article, Jack Anderson, wrote:
President Ford was on his way to Indonesia for a state visit. An
intelligence report forewarned that Suharto would bring up the Timor
issue and would ``try to elicit a sympathetic attitude!''
That Suharto succeeded is confirmed by Ford himself. The U.S. national
interest, Ford concluded, ``had to be on the side of Indonesia''.
Ford gave his tacit approval on December 6, 1975 ... Five days after
the invasion, the United Nations voted to condemn the attack as an
arrant act of international aggression. The United States abstained.
Thereafter, the U.S. delegate maneuvered behind the scenes to resist
U.N. moves aimed at forcing Indonesia to give up its conquest
As Air Force General Brent Scowcroft, President Ford's National
Security Adviser, explained:
I guess it was fundamentally a matter of recognizing reality. We really
had no reasonable options ... It made no sense to antagonize the
Indonesians ... East Timor was not a viable entity [_Christian Science
Monitor_, March 6, 1980; Chomsky82].
The same argument, however, was not used when Iraq invaded Kuwait in
1991. At that time, the U.S. was very emphatic about its opposition to
international aggression.
Kuwait turned out to be a ``viable entity'' because the United States
wished it to exist. The opposite was true with regards to East Timor.
In a secret cable sent to his government on August 17, 1975, Australian
Ambassador Woolcott reported that:
The United States might have some influence on Indonesia at present, as
Indonesia really wants and needs United States assistance in its
military re-equipment programme. But [U.S.] Ambassador [David] Newsom
told me last night that he is under instructions from Kissinger
personally not to involve himself in discussions on Timor with the
Indonesians on the ground that the United States is involved in enough
problems of greater importance overseas at present. The State
Department, we understand, instructed the embassy to cut down its
reporting on Timor ... [Newsom's] present attitude is that the U.S.
should keep out of the Portuguese Timor situation and allow events to
take their course. His somewhat cynical comment to me was that if
Indonesia was to intervene the United States would hope they
would do so ``effectively, quickly and not use our equipment''
[WalshMunster80; Chomsky82].
In January, 1976, a State Department official admitted that:
In terms of the bilateral relations between the U.S. and Indonesia, we
are more or less condoning the incursion into East Timor [Australian,
January 22, 1976; ChomskyHerman79].
The U.S. was not merely condoning the invasion, it was providing
diplomatic support as well. On August 3, 1976, the _Melbourne Age_
reported that ``the U.S. has warned Australia not to allow
further deterioration with Indonesia over Timor''. On August 4, it
reported that ``U.S. officials in South-East Asia confirmed the warning
followed two high-powered academic assessments of the importance of
Indonesian waterways in current U.S. nuclear strategy''
[ChomskyHerman79].
The United States has been steadfast in its support.
From 1976 till 1982, the General Assembly adopted annual resolutions on
East Timor sponsored by the five former Portuguese colonies in Africa
and Portugal. An attempt to send a UN envoy to East Timor in February
1976 was sabotaged by Australia; this was the only effort at positive
UN intervention. The US abstained in 1975 and has consistently voted
against East Timor since 1976. Daniel Patrick Moynihan who was US
ambassador at the UN during the crucial early years, said later in his
memoirs: The US wished things to turn out as they did in East Timor and
worked to bring this about. The Department of State desired that
the UN prove utterly ineffective in whatever measures it undertook.
This task was given to me and I carried it out with no inconsiderable
success [TAPOL91].
Mr. Moynihan must be very proud of his handiwork.
3 --- American Awareness of the Massacre
Information about the massacre was certainly available to anyone who
was interested. On February 15, 1976, the _New York Times_ reported
that 60,000 people had been killed since the invasion
[ChomskyHerman79].
On April 1, 1977, the _Melbourne Age_ quoted Indonesian Foreign
Minister Adam Malik, as saying:
50,000 people or perhaps 80,000 might have been killed during the war
in Timor, but we saved 600,000 of them [ChomskyHerman79].
In March, 1977, Congressional hearings were held on ``allegations of
genocide committed by the Indonesian forces against the population of
East Timor.'' The best informed person to testify was James Dunn. He
had been the Australian consul to East Timor between 1962 and 1964 and
had led an aid mission in October and November of 1975. He reported:
According to accounts from Timorese refugees in Portugal ...,
information from Chinese refugees in Taiwan and Australia, and reports
from within Indonesia itself, the move to annex this territory has been
a brutal operation, marked by the wanton slaughter of possibly
between 50,000 and 100,000 Timorese [ChomskyHerman79].
In his final statement, Chairman Donald Fraser observed:
U.S. arms were used in all that and continue to be used today. There is
a degree of complicity here by the U.S. that I really find to be quite
disturbing [ChomskyHerman79].
Of course, this was not sufficiently disturbing to actually stop the
flow of arms.
4 --- American Military Assistance
The invading Indonesian army was 90% supplied with U.S. arms.
Afterward, U.S. government representatives claimed that the United
States had imposed a six-month arms ban in response to the
invasion. They were lying.
As the U.S. Congress was told in its February, 1978, hearings, at least
four separate offers of military equipment were made to the Indonesian
government during the January-June 1976 ``administrative suspension''.
This equipment consisted mainly of supplies and parts for OV-10
Broncos. These were planes specially designed for counterinsurgency
operations against forces without effective anti-aircraft weapons. They
were totally useless for defending Indonesia from a foreign enemy. The
U.S. government, in fact, never informed Indonesia that it had
``suspended'' military aid [ChomskyHerman79].
No constraints were placed on the use of this equipment. Administration
witness David Kenney stated in congressional hearings that ``as long as
we are giving military assistance of any sort to Indonesia we are not
telling where they will or will not use it. We have not done so far''
[Chomsky82]. From 1975 through 1979, the United States furnished over
250 million dollars of military assistance to Indonesia, mostly after
the Carter Administration accelerated the arms flow [Sidel81;
Chomsky82].
By late 1977, Indonesia was running out of military supplies. The
Carter Administration increased the flow of military equipment.
According to Ann Crittenden, writing in July 1977, ``the Carter
Administration has requested a sizable increase in military assistance
to Indonesia in the 1978 fiscal year'' [_New York Times_, July 17,
1977; ChomskyHerman79].
Vice President Mondale visited Jakarta in May 1977 to discuss
``Indonesia's requests for additional military and economic
assistance.'' While there he discovered that the A-4 ground-attack
bombers requested by Indonesia
... were indeed important to the Indonesians ... Some hurried phone
calls back to Washington and a few hours later, the Vice President was
given the discretionary authority to grant the plane request if he felt
adequate progress could be obtained on human rights. More talks with
the Indonesians convinced him that this was the case. Shortly before he
left, he announced the plane sale [New York Times, May 14, 1978;
ChomskyHerman79].
On October 8, 1977, the _Australian_ reported that ``30,000 Indonesian
troops are still roaming East Timor slaying men, women and children in
an attempt to end the persistent but hopeless liberation war''
[ChomskyHerman79].
It should be noted that other Western nations, including Britain and
France, also took advantage of Indonesia's increased demand for
military supplies caused by its massacre in East Timor. These
nations shipped arms to Indonesia during the massacre, albeit in much
smaller quantities than the U.S.
5 --- The Massacre: 1977-1979
In the last months of 1977, Indonesia intensified its assault. This was
made possible by the thoughtful American assistance.
After the invasion in December 1975, armed resistance prevented the
Indonesian armed forces from gaining control over the country until
1979. Indonesia's campaign of encirclement and annihilation (1977-1979)
achieved its goal due to substantial supplies from the US in 1976 and
1977 of OV10-Broncos, Lockheed C-130 transport planes, 45 Cadillac
Cage V-150 commando armoured vehicles equipped with machine-guns,
mortar and cannon launchers and a huge quantity of rifles, machine-gun,
pistols and communications equipment. This enabled the invaders to
devastate areas where the armed resistance and most of the
population were holding out. There were huge casualties (an estimated
200,000 deaths in a population of 700,000), cause by heavy bombing and
war-related famine and disease. This was followed by the enforced
re-settlement of most surviving Timorese in strategic settlements under
army control [TAPOL91].
Father Leoneto Vieira do Rego, a Portuguese priest who spent 3 years in
the mountains of East Timor, before surrendering to Indonesia in
January 1979, estimated that over 200,000 people had been killed during
the first 4 years of the war [_Boston Globe_, January 20, 1980;
Chomsky82]. He added that:
The second phase of the bombing was late 1977 to early 1979, with
modern aircraft. This was the firebombing phase of the bombing. Even up
to this time, people could still live. The genocide and starvation was
the result of the full-scale incendiary bombing.
To the _Christian Science Monitor_ (Dec. 17, 1979), he said:
The Indonesians attacked relentlessly with infantry and with
U.S.-supplied armed reconnaissance planes known as the OV-10 (Bronco)
[Chomsky82].
FRETILIN charged that the U.S. did more than just provide material
assistance. A _UPI_ report from Sydney (June 19, 1978) quoted a
FRETILIN press release:
American military advisers and mercenaries fought alongside Indonesian
soldiers against FRETILIN in two battles ... In the meantime, American
pilots are flying OV-10 Bronco aircraft for the Indonesian Air Force in
bombing raids against the liberated areas under FRETILIN control
[ChomskyHerman79].
In May, 1980, Brian Eads reported that
... malnutrition and disease are still more widespread than in ravaged
Cambodia, but the people of East Timor are slowly struggling back to
life. Perhaps the most telling observation came from an official who
had recently visited Cambodia. By the criteria of distended bellies,
intestinal disease and brachial parameter ... the East Timorese are in
a worse state than the Khmers [Chomsky82].
Father Pat Walsh of Action for World Development, an Australian
Catholic agency, estimated in December 1980 that the population of East
Timor had declined by some 200,000 since the invasion. The Vatican's
permanent observer at the U.N. ``surmised the people were being kept
half-starved and confused to lessen their resistance'' [Chomsky82].
6 --- The Massacre: 1980-today
Despite Indonesian repression, the Timorese never gave up:
By skilfully engaging in mobile guerrilla warfare, the resistance army,
Falintil, has continued to fight, without any external material
support. Army operations in 1981, 1983-1984,
1986-1987 and 1988 failed to defeat the guerrillas ...
In 1990, the Indonesian military stepped up its program to eliminate
all Timorese resistance.
In October 1990, the Indonesian army launched a new offensive in an
attempt to surround and capture Shanana [the Falintil leader]. Whereas
previously, operations were focused on the eastern part of the country,
the present offensive is centred on the districts of Ainaro and
Same, southeast of Dili. As clashes and repression were reaching a new
peak in Dili during October and November, troop reinforcements
consisting of marines, aircraft, helicopters and para-commandos, were
brought from the north and the south ...
Since November, in addition to the detention in Dili of many students
who went into hiding following clashes in October, there have been
waves of arrests in other districts east and south of Dili, including
government officials and teachers in Liquica, suspected of being in
contact with Falintil. Villagers in Suro and Suru Kraik, district of
Ainaro, have been rounded up and tortured for celebrating the 15th
anniversary of Falintil on 20 August ...
At the very time when the western powers launched all-out war against
Kuwait's invader, the Indonesian invader was stepping up the war to
crush armed and unarmed resistance in East Timor [TAPOL91].
Although the number of killings is far lower than in the 1975-1979
period, the human rights condition in East Timor remains abysmal. In
its report of January 1991, Amnesty International stated that it
remains concerned about a continuing pattern of serious violations
described in its August 1990 statement, persistent reports of
extrajudicial executions, the systematic use of torture against
political detainees by members of the security forces, hundreds of
unresolved cases of `disappearances' and the continuing imprisonment of
at least 10 alleged supporters of Fretilin sentenced in trials which
Amnesty International believes were not fair. Amnesty International
is increasingly concerned about a pattern of short-term detention,
ill-treatment and torture of alleged political opponents of Indonesian
rule in East Timor which has gained additional momentum since August
[TAPOL91].
Indonesia has refused to allow Amnesty International or Asia Watch to
visit East Timor [TAPOL91].
On November of 1991, East Timor finally made it to the television
screens of the West. The Indonesian government made the unfortunate
error of performing one of their many slaughters in front of a video
camera. Allan Nairn, an American reporter, was able to live to tell the
tale:
Last Tuesday in the occupied nation of East Timor, I survived a
massacre carried out with American arms.
As a large, peaceful crowd stood outside a walled cemetery, the
Indonesian army attacked them with M-16 rifles.
Dozens upon dozens fell to the ground around me, as ranks of soldiers
aimed and fired into the terrified, retreating people.
It was a calculated mass murder, the latest of many in East Timor,
where 200,000 people (a third of the population) have died from
massacre and forced starvation since Indonesia invaded there in 1975
...
The marching had already ended and people were standing around when the
army swept toward us from two directions. A troop truck full of
helmeted men sealed off one escape route when a long, formed-up stream
of soldiers brandishing their M-16s rounded the corner and opened fire
upon the crowd.
There was no provocation, no spontaneous flare-up, no threat to the
soldiers or warning to disperse. The soldiers simply advanced upon the
gasping Timorese and began firing in a coordinated way.
The Timorese were paying the price for daring to engage in public
speech. In the eyes of the Indonesian army, that is the crime of
``politik.'' That is the word the soldiers screamed as they
kicked me in the back and gut and beat my head with swinging rifle
butts. It is also what they shouted as they put both of us on the
pavement and aimed their M-16s straight at our heads.
The answer we shouted back -- and I think it is what saved us -- was
the word ``America!'' We were citizens of the country that supplied
those M-16s. Killing us might invite somewhat different results from
killing the Timorese whom they were just at that moment executing just
a few feet away from where we sat.
For 16 years now, the mass killing of Timorese has simply been met by
fresh renewals of U.S. military aid. After Indonesia invaded East Timor
in 1975, Washington responded by doubling the weapons flow.
Now, after the cemetery massacre, the people of East Timor are in
especially urgent danger
...
The question before Washington is not whether it should restrain
Indonesia, but whether it will continue to serve as a sponsor and
knowing accomplice in what are unmistakably criminal acts. The United
States should end all military aid and sales to Indonesia and, at the
same time, let the U.N. enforce the law ...
Gunshot massacres with U.S. weapons by U.S. client states have happened
many times in many places. But this is the first time that I am aware
that the act was witnessed and survived by U.S. journalists.
The lives of a great many gravely threatened Timorese now hang on how
Americans will respond [Nairn91].
The official death toll of what has come to be called the Santa Cruz
killings is 19. The bishop of Timor, however, estimated that 160 had
died [Dwyer91]. The reaction of the American government was
predictable. On November 14, 1991, the _AFP_ published an article
titled ``Washington Defends Military Aid to Jakarta'':
The U.S. administration defended its military aid to Indonesia
Thursday, which has been threatened by Congress after protesters in
East Timor were killed in a confrontation with the army.
``We think that a continued and well focused military assistance
program for Indonesia can contribute to the professionalization of the
Indonesian military,'' said State Department spokesman Richard Boucher.
A total of 2.3 million dollars has been budgeted for military aid for
the 1991-1992 fiscal year, which began October 1. The money is only for
training and education. ``These kinds of programs expose the trainee to
democratic ideas and humanitarian standards,'' he said ...
From 1976 to 1986, the U.S. supported Indonesia with grants of two
billion dollars and loans of four billion dollars [Beit-Hallahmi87]. In
1991, the United States sent Indonesia $50 million dollars in
assistance of all kinds [Dwyer91]. With this help, Indonesia has been
spreading ``democratic ideas'' throughout East Timor for the past 16
years.
American help with the ``professionalization of the Indonesian
military'' is certainly bringing dividends. According to the Indonesia
Human Rights Campaign:
A reign of terror has eclipsed the occupied island. In particular the
role of the hawkish Brig. General Theo Syafei, the new commander in
Dili, shows how ``law and order'' is now being implemented in East
Timor. Brig. General Theo Syafei has made it a matter of prestige and a
personal crusade to maintain ``law and order'' in East Timor. Ever
since becoming KOLAKOPS (the special operational command) commander, he
has repeatedly made it clear that he will not pursue the soft approach
of his predecessor. General Theo, an old Timor hand, has put the clock
back to the late seventies and early eighties, when military rule was
virtually absolute. The ``opening up'' of the last three years is now
on the way out; every measure taken by General Theo reinforces this
[TAPOL92].
The new commander is very open about his intentions. On March 14, 1992,
he spoke to the _Editor_ about the Santa Cruz killings:
Thus, as I have said, if something similar to the 12 November event
were to happen under my leadership, the number of victims would
probably be higher [TAPOL92].
Speaking to Suara Pembaruan (March 4, 1992), Theo Syafei was openly
critical of his predecessor, Pak Warouw:
The position and policy of ABRI [the Armed Forces] never change. Our
mission is to bring stability in East Timor. In a technical sense our
approaches are different. Pak Warouw had his love and caring approach.
But as I see it, because of a different culture, his approach
came to be seen as indecision. Some regard the soft approach as a
weakness. I only want to stress the importance of restoring ABRI's
credibility and to make sure that softness is by no means weakness.
This is the position I want to put across. And indeed, this position
has been accepted by many [TAPOL92].
Peter Goodman, an American freelance journalist based in Jakarta,
visited East Timor in February and wrote about it in the _Daily
Telegraph_ (Feb. 28, 1992):
Dili is dominated by fear, the streets devoid of activity throughout
much of the day. On one recent morning, virtually everyone had a quick
look about to see who else might be in the area before saying so much
as good morning to a foreigner.
At least 10,000 Indonesian troops remain in East Timor and Dili has the
air of a city under siege.
On a steamy morning earlier this month, 500 soldiers in 20 lorries
stood in formation in a field in central Dili. All carried full packs
and M16 assault rifles slung over their shoulders. Their commander
addressed them loudly while he stood beneath a flagpole, the
red-and-white of Indonesia lifted by a gentle breeze. Most East
Timorese walking by did not even dare look. While none of the dozen or
so soldiers at ease on the sides of the field cared to say where the
men were going, several East Timorese said troops have been entering
villages frequently of late.
``They go from house to house, warning people not to make trouble,''
said an elderly East Timorese as he sat beneath an enormous banyan tree
on the edge of the crumbling broadwalk that fronts the harbour. ``The
soldiers come and beat people up. Many are taken away for questioning
and often disappear. The military has killed many in the last few
months'' [TAPOL92].
Sidney Jones, the Executive Director of Asia Watch, the U.S.-based
human rights organisation also visited East Timor in February as a
tourist. On February 27, she told the U.S. Senate Foreign
Relations Committee:
I was skeptical of accounts of post-massacre killings before going to
East Timor. I am much more inclined to believe them now. In a place
where the only checks on the military are a relatively powerless
governor and a beleaguered Catholic church, where fear prevented many
witnesses from giving testimony to the National Commission of Inquiry
and still prevents ordinary conversations on the street, I began to
understand why we weren't getting proof [TAPOL92].
These then are the ``humanitarian standards'' which we can expect the
Indonesian army to follow for the foreseeable future.
Notes [Beit-Hallahmi87] Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, _The Israeli Connection
-- Who Israel Arms and Why_, Pantheon Books, 1987.
[Blum86] William Blum, _The CIA: A Forgotten History_, Zed Books Ltd.,
1986.
[Chomsky82] Noam Chomsky, _Towards a New Cold War: Essays on the
Current Crisis and How We Got Here_, Pantheon Books, 1982.
[ChomskyHerman79] Noam Chomsky, Edward S. Herman, _The Political
Economy of Human Rights: Volume 1 -- The Washington Connection and
Third World Fascism_, Black Rose Books,
1979.
[Dwyer91] Jim Dwyer, ``Indonesia Scoring Big with U.S. $$$,'' _New York
Newsday_, 22 November 1991.
[Nairn91] Allan Nairn, ``A Narrow Escape from East Timor,'' _U.S.A.
Today_, November 21, 1991.
[Sidel81] Scott Sidel, ``The United States and Genocide in East
Timor,'' _Journal of Contemporary Asia_, no. 1, 1981.
[TAPOL91] TAPOL (the Indonesia Human Rights Campaign), _Backgrounder on
East Timor_, 1991.
[TAPOL92] TAPOL (the Indonesia Human Rights Campaign), _East Timor in a
State of Terror_, Bulletin No. 110, April, 1992.
[WalshMunster80] J. R. Walsh, G. J. Munster, _Documents on Australian
Defence and Foreign Policy, 1968-1975_, Sydney, 1980.
[Webster90] David Webster, ``Bishop of East Timor: Campaign of Terror
Has Begun,'' _Catholic New Times_, Canada, November, 17, 1990.
Garby Leon
(EXCERPT, "ACCEPTABLE SLAUGHTERS" -- following by Alan Nairn/USA
Today:)
Garby Leon
>a.r...@mclink.it (Alberto Rezza) wrote:
(various snips)
>> 2) Then Bruce keeps talking about other people who want him to make
a sacrifice because of their ideas. I may be naive, but I would have
thought Bruce would be sacrificing something BY GOING, not by staying
home. I guess we just have different ideas about what self-respect is.
Touche!
>> Bruce, you do well to follow your own ideas, your own conscience,
and disregard what others may say. But you are inconsistent when you
insist on the uselessness of a boycott. Apply the same principle, and
learn to do what is right even when you know it will have no effect on
others (here, on the Indonesian goverment).
Indeed. It's called 'do the right thing.' Whether or not you get
'paid' for doing it, with some kind of hypothetical result. This also
prevents cynical inaction of the "it won't make any difference"
variety. I.e., from developing a rationale for inaction based on a
hypothetical non-result.
In life -- unlike chess -- it's very difficult to predict the results
of an action anyway. Given that unpredictability, doing the right
thing insures that if there *is* a result, it'll be one you can live
with.
>> Up to now, the discussion seems to have been limited to the
>> programmers. But if this is the best they can do, perhaps it's time
for users like me to join it.
>> All I can say is that I'll NEVER MORE buy products from programmers
who will be in Jakarta. This is of course only my persomal opinion; I
don't expect anyone to follow me in this second boycott. I'm just
stating what I'm going to do with my money.
Count me in -- I'm absolutely onboard with this. Read carefully: I
will NEVER purchase any software from a Jakarta competitor, even if it
beats Kasparov and Deep Blue with a 486.
There's a boycott for you. Even if it 'doesn't make any difference.'
>> Alberto
>>
>> P.S. I now have CM4000 and Genius 4; I'm planning to buy Rebel 8
also. An applause to Ed for not going!
P.S. I now own CM4000 Turbo, Chessica 1.00.2, Rebel Decade, and have
emailed Ed that I'm very pleased that my next purchase -- Rebel 8.0 --
will be from him, with my thanks for his public statements against
participation in the Jakarta tournament.
-- garb leon
Alberto Rezza
In article <32408F...@nwlink.com>
brucemo <bru...@nwlink.com> wrote:
> I think that a boycott is a futile gesture that hurts people who do not deserve
> to be hurt. I am certain that there is much more for you to do, if you feel
> passionately about this issue, than to get upset at someone else for flying there
> for a competition, and that these other activities would be more personally
> rewarding for you (you'd be doing something constructive, rather than writing
> messages condemning something that someone else is doing), and have a greater
> chance of actually making a difference. Five dollars mailed to Amnesty
> International or some other appropriate international relief group would have
> more direct tangible benefit than all of the talk in here so far.
The title might be: "We have given already" ... :^)
Yes, Bruce, I know. You already wrote at length about this before. And you
did give some very good suggestions. But as it has been said many, many
times, even after one has given his $5, and done many other things, it's still
not fair to turn one's head when the neighbor is beating his dog in the garden
just out of your window. You can tell him to stop. He may not stop. But you
can at least decline his invitation to dinner - even if this is a "futile gesture".
Indonesia may be far away in space, but as it happens it's now right under
your nose.
If this particular dog were whining under my window, I'd have to chose what
to do. I might chose right or wrong. But I'm no chess programmer! I'm sorry,
but the dog whines under YOUR window now, and you are free to chose one
way or the other.
Even in such a small matter as going to a chess championship, freedom
means responsibility.
I don't like boycotts. I don't like politics mingling with sports. I hate seeing
national flags and anthems in international competitions. (That was
De Coubertin's mistake! but those were other times.) I utterly disagreed with
the Olympic boycotts in Moscow and Los Angeles. Those were decided by
governments, and a government has better and more proper means at his
disposal, rather than spoil the Games.
There is no government here, only you. Do you have better means? What
can you do for Indonesia? Very, very little. Why not do that little?
Before the Junior episode, going to Jakarta might have seemed to be the
lesser evil. I did not know what to think myself. But now that politics has
heavily intruded itself upon the very championship...
Well, enough said. I'll spare you the observations on the difference
between active and passive behavior ("going" is not simply "doing nothing"
for Indonesia, it might at least seem to endorse... you know what I mean).
There are no journalists here, no TV. Apart from this newsgroup, very few
people will ever know whether you go or not. Nothing will change.
But computer chess is your own little garden. All you programmers out
there, keep it clean first. Then think about Amnesty International.
Apologies to anyone who might have felt offended by my previous post.
I'll try to keep the tone down in the future...
Alberto
brucemo
Don Fong wrote:
>
> i applaud the principled decision made by Chris Whittington
> and by Walter Ravenek. although my main objection to the Jakarta
> event is different from theirs, they are sacrificing for their
> beliefs (note to Bruce Moreland, -their- beliefs, not mine).
I don't have any problem with someone acting on principle, either.
bruce
brucemo
Chris Whittington wrote:
>
> df...@cse.ucsc.edu (Don Fong) wrote:
>[snip]
> > IMHO the Jakarta event will be a sham, with the absence of
> > MCHESS, REBEL, GENIUS, CSTAL, HIARCS, CM5K, JUNIOR, ARTHUR,
> > and (? sorry if i forgot anyone). in my mind the result will
> > be meaningless. you could hold a stronger tournament by taking the
> > absentees than those attending. (:-) hmmm... :-?
> >
> > --- don fong ``i still want the peace dividend''
> > --
>
> Not to mention Chessica.
> Frans Morsch's Quest won't be there, although he is kind of
> represented with Fritz (entered by Chessbase). One of the main UK
> chess distributors told me today that 'he would be having a word
> with Chessbase to see if he could get them to withdraw'. He doesn't
> like the situation in Indonesia either.
>
> We'll see.
>
> Its become a bit of a joke really.
>
> Quite why we don't just organise another tourney on the net
> or whatever as a replacement is beyond me. But if the participants
> want to go, then they want to go.
>
> The various computer chess magazines and fanzines are going to
> have a field day knocking the sham nature of WMCCC-Jakarta.
>
> Best for the ICCA to call it off, or Gundaram University to call it
> off. Unlikely, though.
I think your boycott is having a tremendous success, since around five billion people have declined
to enter a program in the WMCCC.
This tournament is a huge plane ticket away from Europe for the European professional programs, who
aren't given a travel subsidy by the ICCA. Hirsch has stayed away because of the Indonesian
situation. I haven't heard any reason as to why Genius and Hiarcs have stayed away. I don't want to
step on Ed's toes, but I hadn't heard that Rebel was boycotting, either. Who knows why Cm5K stayed
away, but they (Cm4K) didn't go last year either, at least under that name.
If Fritz, Quest, and Chessica all went, I think there would be a significant protest, as they are all
by the same author, and I am pretty sure they are approximately the same program.
Only one of the professional programs listed in Fong's post went to Hong Kong for the last WCCC.
Neither MChess, Rebel, nor Hiarcs were there. Please don't make heroes out of people who may not
have attended the tournament regardless of where it was held in Asia.
bruce
Vincent Diepeveen
In <84279396...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> Chris Whittington <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> writes:
>brucemo <bru...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>>
>> Mike wrote:
>>
>> > Prospectively the contract language with any host country shopuld have
>> > some type of equal participation clause and that financial consideration
>> > should not be strictly the only consideration - otherwise you could have a
>> > NAZI type country theoretically holding the tournament. We cannot just put
>> > our head in the sand and say it doesn't matter.
>>
>> This is out of control, but it's not your fault it's out of control. Marsland's
>> post is misleading.
>>
>> I was angry when I read Marsland's post, so I sent him mail. He called me on the
>> phone since then, and I've also gotten mail from Levy. I don't want to quote the
>> mail, or mis-quote the phone call, but it sounds like there is more to it than
>> this. Also, it sounds like there were other reasons why the Israelis cancelled
>> than simply problems arranging travel.
>>
>> I recommend that people who are furious about what happened with the Israeli team
>> try to find out more about what is going on before going ballistic.
>>
>
>This is quite impossible for anyone to interpret.
>
>So, there's more to it ? But you won't say what.
>
>But you know something we don't, so you're still going ?
>
>This is what the Israeli team posted yesterday:
>
>Shay Bushinsky <sh...@spl.co.il> wrote:
>>
>> Hello fellow programmers,
>>
>> On behalf of Amir Ban and myself (programmers of Junior) I would like
>> to thank those of you who
>> expressed their opinion against the banning of Junior from the Jakarta
>> tournament.
>> We can only confirm Mr. Tony Marsland's (ICCA) note that the banning of
>> Junior is on the basis of
>> political reasons (Indonesia not recognizing the state of Israel).
>>
>> We were one of the first teams who wanted to play in these
>> championships but who soon found it impossible to participate indeed due
>> to the ICCA mistake
>> not to insist beforehand that the host country must accept all of the
>> ICCA elected teams.
>>
>> As we gradually learn that many of the other teams will not participate
>> in this tournament,
>> we feel that another tournament must soon take place, giving all
>> parties a chance to
>> participate.
>>
>> We view these tournaments as a vital instrument to the advance of
>> computer chess.
>> In our opinion, any 2 year delay means a new generation of programs
>> skipped.
>> We urge to hold another tournament as soon as possible and thus to
>> correct the Jakarta mistake.
>>
>> Best Wishes,
>>
>> -- Shay Bushinsky & Amir Ban,
>> Tel-Aviv, Israel
>>
>
>They say they were banned for political reasons, that they wanted to
>attend and play, that they applied early on, and so on.
>
>It is unclear whether they canceled because of the ban by the
>Indonesians, or whether they were formally banned; but it doesn't
>seem to make any difference.
>
>Indonesian government said 'no'.
>
>No invitation or 'warm welcome' or visa for Israeli/jewish team.
>
>The rest of us were asked to provide passport details. I did, I assume
>everyone else did. Then we were told, not needed; presumably, this
>was just to weed out the Israelis.
>
>Islamic terrorists try the same thing on aircraft hijacks.
>passports please, then they separate out the great satan passengers
>(USA ones), then they go through these looking for the jewish names.
>Then they have a *list*. Jews often get on lists. We need to watch
>out for it.
>
>The Indonesian government have two lists.
>
>Invited Not invited
>------- -----------
>Crafty Junior
>Ferret
>etc. etc.
>
>
>As for your 'out of control' comments. The only entities 'out of
>control' appear to be non-democratic governments who think they can
>do what they want, when they want it.
>
>Of course, if you can characterise the opposing views as 'out
>of control' then I suppose you are generating your own basis
>for ignoring them.
>
>Chris Whittington
What about the OPEN dutch championship?
Already joining:
The King
Nimzo
Arthur
Diep
and many many others
Vincent Diepeveen
--
+--------------------------------------+
|| email : vdie...@cs.ruu.nl ||
|| Vincent Diepeveen ||
+======================================+
Vincent Diepeveen
>> As we gradually learn that many of the other teams will not participate
>> in this tournament,
>> we feel that another tournament must soon take place, giving all
>> parties a chance to
>> participate.
Why not Netherlands:
the national championship is OPEN. Meaning that if you want to play you
must buy a ticket and bring your computer. I guess that the entry fee
is for foreigners either free or about
36 guilders (18 dollar: the price of a membership of the dutch computer
chess assosiation). There are lots of hotels in Leiden (studentcity) and
neighbourhood.
A list of already joining programs (random order):
Ant
Arthur
Nimzo 3
Goldbar
MacChess
Bionic
Cilkchess
Morphy 96
Delta
ZZZZZZ
Dappet
Hector
ALEXS 2.0 ALFA
Rookie
Achess
Schach
The King
Kallisto 1.98/2.0
Diep
Frans Mors seems not to join this year, and Ed Schroeder
usually has problems playing at Sunday (Do you join this year Ed?).
See ICCA:
Entry/questions/details:
Theo van der Storm : t...@dasc.nl
Weth. Driessenstraat 5, 1107 XG Amsterdam Zuidoost, The Netherlands.
Date: 9-10 november and 16-17 november (2 Saturdays, 2 Sundays, and
a week in between to fix bugs and/or sightseeing).
11 rounds. Tempo: 90 minutes for 60 moves.
>> We view these tournaments as a vital instrument to the advance of
>> computer chess.
>> In our opinion, any 2 year delay means a new generation of programs
>> skipped.
>> We urge to hold another tournament as soon as possible and thus to
>> correct the Jakarta mistake.
The open dutch championship is every year,
and last 2 years (95 and 96) it has become an open tournament.