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LCT II EPD test suite -- a request for some expert analysis

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Dann Corbit

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Feb 15, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/15/99
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In each of the following EPD positions, I took the 'best move' suggested by
the test suite and a different 'best move' suggested by the program. For
these choices, I made the move in question and then ran Crafty against the
position for about 8 hours. Here are some early results. The acn are
nonsense numbers since the counter has overflowed 2^31 positions. In each
case, I describe the analysis as 1 ply more than the program performed,
since we are analyzing the positions after performing the chosen move.
Further, since we have made one ply forward, the more negative the score,
the better the original estimate.

LCT POS 13:
1r2r1k1/4ppbp/B5p1/3P4/pp1qPB2/5Q1P/n4PP1/4RRK1 w - - acd 17;
acn -233119022; acs 30001; ce -83; bm Nxa2; pv Qg3 Ra8 Bb7 Nc3 Bxa8 Rxa8 Qh4
Re8 Bh6 Bxh6 Qxh6 e6 Kh2 Nxe4 Rd1 Qb2 dxe6 Rxe6; c1 "LCTII.POS.13 after
Nxa2 -- white to move"; c0 "Barbero - Kouatly, Budapest 1987";

3rr1k1/4ppbp/B5p1/3P4/pp1qPB2/2n2Q1P/P4PP1/4RRK1 w - - acd 17;
acn -104698002; acs 30001; ce -50; bm Nxa2; pv Be3 Qf6 Qxf6 Bxf6 Bb7 Rf8 Bc6
Rc8 e5 Bxe5 Bh6 Bg7 Bxg7 Kxg7 Rxe7 a3 Ra1 Rfd8 Rd7 Rxd7 Bxd7; c1
"LCTII.POS.13 after Rbd8 -- white to move"; c0 "Barbero - Kouatly, Budapest
1987";

It appears after 18 ply from the original position (17 ply from the chosen
move) that LCT and Crafty agree that the LCT II choice was better than the
original Crafty choice. The margin is not overwhelming, 1/3 of a pawn.
Here are the original comments:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
13 - Pos
Barbero - Kouatly : ...Nxa2!!
(Budapest 1987)
Two passed pawns on the third rank are worth the quality.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


FIN.08:
2k5/p7/Pp1p1b2/1PPP1p2/5P1p/3K3P/5B2/8 b - - acd 24; acn 119679487; acs
30001; ce -91; bm c5; pv bxc5 Be1 Kc7 Ba5+ Kb8 Bd2 Kc8 Ke2 Bb2 Be1 Bf6 Ba5
Be7 Kd3 Bf6 Ke3 Be7 Kd2 Bf6 b6 axb6 Bxb6 c4 a7 c3+ Kd3 Kb7 Kc2; c1
"LCTII.FIN.08 after c5 -- black to move"; c0 "Polugaevsky - Unzicker,
Kislovodsk 1972";

2k5/p7/Pp1p1b2/1P1P1p2/2P2P1p/3K3P/8/4B3 b - - acd 25; acn -53936097; acs
30000; ce -193; bm c5; pv Kc7 Ke3 Kd7 Bb4 Kc7 Ke2 Bd4 Kf3 Ba1 Kf2 Bf6 Ke3
Ba1 Be1 Bf6 Kd3 Kc8 Bb4 Kc7 Bd2 Kb8 Ke3 Kc7 Bb4; c1 "LCTII.FIN.08 after
Be1 -- black to move"; c0 "Polugaevsky - Unzicker, Kislovodsk 1972";

Here, with 25/26 plies considered, crafty's choice is ahead by a pawn. I
wonder if LCT II might be wrong on this one...
Here are the original comments:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 - Fin
Spassky - Byrne : c5!!
(1974)
(1...dxc5 2.d6 Kd7 3.Bxc5 Bd8 4.Bb4 Ke6 5.Kc4 Bf6 6.Bc5 Bd8 7.Bd4 Kxd6
8.Be5 Ke6 9.Bb8) OR (1...bxc5 2.Be1 Kb8 3.Kc4 Kc8 4.Ba5 Bd4 5.Bd8 Be3
6.Bg5 Kb8 7.Kd3 Bc1 8.Bxh4 Bxf4 9.Be1 Kc7 10.Ba5 Kb8 11.h4 Bc1 12.h5
Bg5
13.Ke2 c4 14.Bd2 Bf6 15.h6 1-0 )

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
POS.06

3r1bk1/p4ppp/Qp6/4p3/1P1B4/Pq2P1P1/2r2P1P/R3R1K1 w - - acd 17;
acn -104830512; acs 30001; ce -15; bm e5; pv Bxe5 Rdd2 Qf1 Qd5 Bd4 Qf3 Rec1
Qxf2+ Qxf2 Rxf2 Rxc2 Rxc2 Rf1 Ra2 Ra1 Rd2 Rc1 a5 Rc7 axb4 axb4 Bxb4 Bxb6; c1
"LCTII.POS.06 after e5 -- white to move"; c0 "Nimzowitsch - Capablanca, New
York 1927";

5bk1/p2r1ppp/Qp2p3/8/1P1B4/Pq2P1P1/2r2P1P/R3R1K1 w - - acd 17;
acn -77195556; acs 30001; ce -26; bm e5; pv Rec1 f6 Rxc2 Qxc2 f4 Re7 Qb5 Qb3
Qe2 e5 fxe5 fxe5 Qb2 Qd5 Bc3 Qe4 Qe2 Rf7 Rd1; c1 "LCTII.POS.06 after Rd7 --
white to move"; c0 "Nimzowitsch - Capablanca, New York 1927";

Here, after 18 plies, the move crafty originally chose is again ahead, but
only by .11 pawns. Hardly decisive. The original comments:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
6 - Pos
Nimzovitch - Capablanca: ...e5!
(New-York 1927)
This positional sacrifice allows black to gain control of the second rank
after 2.Bxe5 Rdd2.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to get expert opinions as to these positions, especially
FIN.08. Is Crafty fooled by a Zugzwang position? Is something important
overlooked?

A few more positions will follow (5 total will be analyzed in detail, one of
which will have two alternate 'best moves' considered).
-- C-FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html "The C-FAQ Book" ISBN
0-201-84519-9 C.A.P. Newsgroup http://www.dejanews.com/~c_a_pChess Data:
ftp://38.168.214.175/pub/


RDavis101

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Feb 15, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/15/99
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>Subject: LCT II EPD test suite -- a request for some expert analysis
>From: "Dann Corbit" <dco...@solutionsiq.com>
>Date: 2/15/99 10:54 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <7a9jgj$f4e$1...@client2.news.psi.net>


How can I enter these EPD positions into Fritz 5.32?

Roger

Albert Silver

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Feb 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/16/99
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In article <7a9jgj$f4e$1...@client2.news.psi.net>,

I would agree with this. It makes Black's struggle easier as well, so there is
practical aspect that a tenth of a pawn will never tell about. Also. let's not
presume that Crafty's (or any machine's) evaluation of a 1/10th of a pawn is
absolute. If it were they would always win.

> FIN.08:
> 2k5/p7/Pp1p1b2/1PPP1p2/5P1p/3K3P/5B2/8 b - - acd 24; acn 119679487; acs
> 30001; ce -91; bm c5; pv bxc5 Be1 Kc7 Ba5+ Kb8 Bd2 Kc8 Ke2 Bb2 Be1 Bf6 Ba5
> Be7 Kd3 Bf6 Ke3 Be7 Kd2 Bf6 b6 axb6 Bxb6 c4 a7 c3+ Kd3 Kb7 Kc2; c1
> "LCTII.FIN.08 after c5 -- black to move"; c0 "Polugaevsky - Unzicker,
> Kislovodsk 1972";
>
> 2k5/p7/Pp1p1b2/1P1P1p2/2P2P1p/3K3P/8/4B3 b - - acd 25; acn -53936097; acs
> 30000; ce -193; bm c5; pv Kc7 Ke3 Kd7 Bb4 Kc7 Ke2 Bd4 Kf3 Ba1 Kf2 Bf6 Ke3
> Ba1 Be1 Bf6 Kd3 Kc8 Bb4 Kc7 Bd2 Kb8 Ke3 Kc7 Bb4; c1 "LCTII.FIN.08 after
> Be1 -- black to move"; c0 "Polugaevsky - Unzicker, Kislovodsk 1972";
>
> Here, with 25/26 plies considered, crafty's choice is ahead by a pawn. I
> wonder if LCT II might be wrong on this one...
> Here are the original comments:

It's not wrong. It was Spassky at the height of his game. Look at the
analysis provided and see how Spassky used the 1...c5! thrust to win. Just
the move is nothing. Crafty did nothing even after you forced 1...c5 on it.
It just shuffled the pieces around so of course, in one line it has an extra
pawn and in the other it doesn't hence the evaluation. You could take this
position and use it as an exercise recommended by Dvoretsky: playing out
specific positions. Study the various elements of the position and how one
wins it (remember you might even have a piece for two pawns sac in some
positions), and then play it out against Crafty.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 8 - Fin
> Spassky - Byrne : c5!!
> (1974)
> (1...dxc5 2.d6 Kd7 3.Bxc5 Bd8 4.Bb4 Ke6 5.Kc4 Bf6 6.Bc5 Bd8 7.Bd4 Kxd6
> 8.Be5 Ke6 9.Bb8) OR (1...bxc5 2.Be1 Kb8 3.Kc4 Kc8 4.Ba5 Bd4 5.Bd8 Be3
> 6.Bg5 Kb8 7.Kd3 Bc1 8.Bxh4 Bxf4 9.Be1 Kc7 10.Ba5 Kb8 11.h4 Bc1 12.h5
> Bg5
> 13.Ke2 c4 14.Bd2 Bf6 15.h6 1-0 )
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> POS.06
>
> 3r1bk1/p4ppp/Qp6/4p3/1P1B4/Pq2P1P1/2r2P1P/R3R1K1 w - - acd 17;
> acn -104830512; acs 30001; ce -15; bm e5; pv Bxe5 Rdd2 Qf1 Qd5 Bd4 Qf3 Rec1
> Qxf2+ Qxf2 Rxf2 Rxc2 Rxc2 Rf1 Ra2 Ra1 Rd2 Rc1 a5 Rc7 axb4 axb4 Bxb4 Bxb6; c1
> "LCTII.POS.06 after e5 -- white to move"; c0 "Nimzowitsch - Capablanca, New
> York 1927";
>
> 5bk1/p2r1ppp/Qp2p3/8/1P1B4/Pq2P1P1/2r2P1P/R3R1K1 w - - acd 17;
> acn -77195556; acs 30001; ce -26; bm e5; pv Rec1 f6 Rxc2 Qxc2 f4 Re7 Qb5 Qb3
> Qe2 e5 fxe5 fxe5 Qb2 Qd5 Bc3 Qe4 Qe2 Rf7 Rd1; c1 "LCTII.POS.06 after Rd7 --
> white to move"; c0 "Nimzowitsch - Capablanca, New York 1927";
>
> Here, after 18 plies, the move crafty originally chose is again ahead, but
> only by .11 pawns.

Again, you must realize that Crafty can only play as well as Crafty. Very
good, unquestionably, but not Capablanca. What I mean is that it's 18 plies
represent 18 plies IT thinks will be played. The pressure of the two rooks
here is quite clear, so I have no doubts personally.

Albert Silver

> Hardly decisive. The original comments:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 6 - Pos
> Nimzovitch - Capablanca: ...e5!
> (New-York 1927)
> This positional sacrifice allows black to gain control of the second rank
> after 2.Bxe5 Rdd2.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I would like to get expert opinions as to these positions, especially
> FIN.08. Is Crafty fooled by a Zugzwang position? Is something important
> overlooked?
>
> A few more positions will follow (5 total will be analyzed in detail, one of
> which will have two alternate 'best moves' considered).
> -- C-FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html "The C-FAQ Book" ISBN
> 0-201-84519-9 C.A.P. Newsgroup http://www.dejanews.com/~c_a_pChess Data:
> ftp://38.168.214.175/pub/
>
>

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Dann Corbit

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Feb 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/16/99
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Thank you for the excellent analysis. I will print it out and consider it
with great care this evening.

Komputer Korner

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Feb 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/16/99
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Read my Fritz 5-32 review article at CCC.

--
--
Komputer Korner
The inkompetent komputer

To send email take the 1 out of my address. My email address is
kor...@netcom.ca but take the 1 out before sending the email.
RDavis101 wrote in message
<19990215154941...@ng-fa1.aol.com>...

RDavis101

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Feb 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/16/99
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>Subject: Re: LCT II EPD test suite -- a request for some expert analysis
>From: "Komputer Korner" <kor...@netcom.ca>
>Date: 2/16/99 2:12 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <Hpky2.6802$134....@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>

Let me clarify. In Dann's original post, the following text appears:

LCT POS 13:
> 1r2r1k1/4ppbp/B5p1/3P4/pp1qPB2/5Q1P/n4PP1/4RRK1 w - - acd 17;
> acn -233119022; acs 30001; ce -83; bm Nxa2; pv Qg3 Ra8 Bb7 Nc3 Bxa8 Rxa8 Qh4
> Re8 Bh6 Bxh6 Qxh6 e6 Kh2 Nxe4 Rd1 Qb2 dxe6 Rxe6; c1 "LCTII.POS.13 after
> Nxa2 -- white to move"; c0 "Barbero - Kouatly, Budapest 1987";

I assume this is a test position. But how do I get this into Fritz 5.32 to
analyze. If Fritz were user friendly, I would assume you would be able to
simply open a dialogue somewhere, paste in the position string, and fill in a
few text boxes, and you'd be good to go. What am I missing?

Roger

Komputer Korner

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Feb 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/16/99
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My review mentioned that the epd file should have only the first ply
solution when importing into Fritz 532. So you will have to clean up
the file. So the following should work in Fritz 5 assuming that you
have put this into a blank text file using Notepad with a epd
extension. You can
have any number of positions in the same file and Fritz will create a
different game listing for each position in the open datatbase. To do
that right mouse click when in the database screen and choose Import
EPD positions.

1r2r1k1/4ppbp/B5p1/3P4/pp1qPB2/5Q1P/n4PP1/4RRK1 w - - acd 17;
acn -233119022; acs 30001; ce -83; bm Nxa2;

--


--
Komputer Korner
The inkompetent komputer

To send email take the 1 out of my address. My email address is
kor...@netcom.ca but take the 1 out before sending the email.
RDavis101 wrote in message

<19990216154858...@ng13.aol.com>...

RDavis101

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Feb 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/17/99
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>Subject: Re: LCT II EPD test suite -- a request for some expert analysis
>From: "Komputer Korner" <kor...@netcom.ca>
>Date: 2/16/99 12:28 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <Fmty2.6926$134....@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>

>
>My review mentioned that the epd file should have only the first ply
>solution when importing into Fritz 532. So you will have to clean up
>the file. So the following should work in Fritz 5 assuming that you
>have put this into a blank text file using Notepad with a epd
>extension. You can
>have any number of positions in the same file and Fritz will create a
>different game listing for each position in the open datatbase. To do
>that right mouse click when in the database screen and choose Import
>EPD positions.
>
>1r2r1k1/4ppbp/B5p1/3P4/pp1qPB2/5Q1P/n4PP1/4RRK1 w - - acd 17;
>acn -233119022; acs 30001; ce -83; bm Nxa2;
>

Thanks a bunch, KK :)

Roger

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