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Julie Guthrie
Nov 28, 2011, 8:31:38 AM11/28/11
to
Both sides vul, IMPs. You sit West holding:
JT
A764
T82
A974
South deals and the bidding goes:
P P 2D! X
2H! ?
2D is explained as a weak major (no strong options). 2H is still pass
or correct.
You have agreed to play lebensohl over weak 2's.
What are your options and how do you rate them?
What would you have bid without the 2H bid?
For those who are interested partner held:
AK72
52
AKQ
KJT5
North had a weak 2 in hearts.
I opted for double and partner bid 4S, which could have made but
didn't.
thanks
Mark
JT
A764
T82
A974
South deals and the bidding goes:
P P 2D! X
2H! ?
2D is explained as a weak major (no strong options). 2H is still pass
or correct.
You have agreed to play lebensohl over weak 2's.
What are your options and how do you rate them?
What would you have bid without the 2H bid?
For those who are interested partner held:
AK72
52
AKQ
KJT5
North had a weak 2 in hearts.
I opted for double and partner bid 4S, which could have made but
didn't.
thanks
Mark
dak...@aol.com
Nov 28, 2011, 8:43:29 AM11/28/11
to
I play Double here as "I don't fit spades but stuff +-10"
Esp as 2S could cheaply be bid.
I expect 3NT would be our choice.
Esp as 2S could cheaply be bid.
I expect 3NT would be our choice.
Co Wiersma
Nov 28, 2011, 9:11:01 AM11/28/11
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Op 28-11-2011 14:31, Julie Guthrie schreef:
Apparent one of you did see double as negative and the other as penalty
And I suppose that are both the options.
And I suppose that are both the options.
Peter Ford
Nov 28, 2011, 9:30:52 AM11/28/11
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Peter
guth...@me.com
Nov 29, 2011, 1:41:31 AM11/29/11
to
15-18 with stoppers = 2NT
<16 with a suit = overcall
anything else is (pass or) X.
Co Wiersma
Nov 29, 2011, 2:15:33 AM11/29/11
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Op 29-11-2011 7:41, guth...@me.com schreef:
> Takeout.
How can something be takeout if opponents suit is not known?
What does takeout mean in your opinion?
> Takeout.
How can something be takeout if opponents suit is not known?
What does takeout mean in your opinion?
OldPalooka
Nov 29, 2011, 4:16:59 AM11/29/11
to
posted here a few years back. First double = cards; second = takeout;
thereafter = blood. It is not perfect, but seems to work well enough
without a big memory requirement against multi and muiderberg type
two's and weak nt's too.
Using this you would pass 2H and pard would double. Now lebensohl or
Rubensohl would let you stagger into 3NT which turns out to be easy.
One of the drawbacks of this method is that it could go 2D * 2H all
pass if opener psyched the pass.
Co Wiersma
Nov 29, 2011, 7:25:52 AM11/29/11
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Op 29-11-2011 10:16, OldPalooka schreef:
So there is no reason at all to treat it different from a weak two or a
3-level preemp : just use takeout double (you know, where you promise
all 3 unbid suits, with emphasis on the unbid major)
> I like to play a generic defense that is used a lot in Australia and
> posted here a few years back. First double = cards; second = takeout;
> thereafter = blood. It is not perfect, but seems to work well enough
> without a big memory requirement against multi and muiderberg type
> two's and weak nt's too.
>
> Using this you would pass 2H and pard would double. Now lebensohl or
> Rubensohl would let you stagger into 3NT which turns out to be easy.
>
> One of the drawbacks of this method is that it could go 2D * 2H all
> pass if opener psyched the pass.
In Muiderberg there is a known suit (the one that is bid)
> posted here a few years back. First double = cards; second = takeout;
> thereafter = blood. It is not perfect, but seems to work well enough
> without a big memory requirement against multi and muiderberg type
> two's and weak nt's too.
>
> Using this you would pass 2H and pard would double. Now lebensohl or
> Rubensohl would let you stagger into 3NT which turns out to be easy.
>
> One of the drawbacks of this method is that it could go 2D * 2H all
> pass if opener psyched the pass.
So there is no reason at all to treat it different from a weak two or a
3-level preemp : just use takeout double (you know, where you promise
all 3 unbid suits, with emphasis on the unbid major)
OldPalooka
Nov 29, 2011, 12:16:07 PM11/29/11
to
with a flawed good hand for a takeout dbl. Since there is an
excellent chance you will be short in opener's second suit, I prefer
to not wait around and hope they find it so I can have a good double.
derek
Nov 30, 2011, 2:15:03 PM11/30/11
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On Nov 29, 3:15 am, Co Wiersma <co.wier...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> Op 29-11-2011 7:41, guthr...@me.com schreef:
I play takeout doubles over a 1N opening with some partners
> Op 29-11-2011 7:41, guthr...@me.com schreef:
>
> > Takeout.
>
> How can something be takeout if opponents suit is not known?
> What does takeout mean in your opinion?
Takeout: bid your best suit.
> > Takeout.
>
> How can something be takeout if opponents suit is not known?
> What does takeout mean in your opinion?
I play takeout doubles over a 1N opening with some partners
Art Hoffman
Nov 30, 2011, 4:42:45 PM11/30/11
to
"derek" <de...@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:17007962-8103-4c92...@da3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
If you've got lots of stuff, OK. But if you make takeout doubles of 1NT
with only modest values, you probably receive more than your share of minus
800s. :)
Co Wiersma
Nov 30, 2011, 5:22:48 PM11/30/11
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Op 30-11-2011 20:15, derek schreef:
You can say that, but I have no clue what that means
What does such a "takeout double" promise?
What does such a "takeout double" promise?
Will in New Haven
Nov 30, 2011, 7:27:49 PM11/30/11
to
agreed." If it is the first, it is very possibly a road to disaster.
If it is the second, partner can't simply "bid his best suit" but must
bid one shown by the double. And the opponents have a right to know
what suits doubler has promised, or at least indicated.
Actually, my partner and I have faced "takeout doubles" of our weak NT
several times lately. On a couple of occasions they reached a
ludicrous contract and we profited. On a couple of others they reached
fairly normal contracts, which I guess is the goal.
--
Will in New Haven
derek
Nov 30, 2011, 8:08:33 PM11/30/11
to
"Takeout" _means_, in any situation, "bid your best suit". What my
takeout double, in this situation, over a strong 1N, _shows_ is 16+
points and no clear place to play.
derek
Nov 30, 2011, 8:04:40 PM11/30/11
to
doubling for penalty. It's not my choice, but we win some we lose
some - never been for 800.
Lone Locust of the Apocalypse
Nov 30, 2011, 10:09:27 PM11/30/11
to
derek <de...@pointerstop.ca> writes:
[...]
literally: it means "I'm doubling, but I don't intend it as a penalty
double, so don't leave the double in -- take it out."
While it is certainly safer if you promise shortness in (a) known suit(s)
and therefore support for certain other known suits, nothing about the
takeout double itself specifically imposes that.
[...]
>> >> How can something be takeout if opponents suit is not known?
>> >> What does takeout mean in your opinion?
[...]
>> >> What does takeout mean in your opinion?
>"Takeout" _means_, in any situation, "bid your best suit". What my
>takeout double, in this situation, over a strong 1N, _shows_ is 16+
>points and no clear place to play.
It may help Co Wiersma further to consider the phrase "takeout double"
>takeout double, in this situation, over a strong 1N, _shows_ is 16+
>points and no clear place to play.
literally: it means "I'm doubling, but I don't intend it as a penalty
double, so don't leave the double in -- take it out."
While it is certainly safer if you promise shortness in (a) known suit(s)
and therefore support for certain other known suits, nothing about the
takeout double itself specifically imposes that.
Co Wiersma
Dec 1, 2011, 8:41:04 AM12/1/11
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Op 1-12-2011 4:09, Lone Locust of the Apocalypse schreef:
\
Takeout double is a bridge term
If you double the 1NT opening bids with exactly the same type of hands
as people who call it a penalty orientated double
Then you use the term "take-out double" just to confuse opponents.
If it show a other type of hand then the opponents have a right to know
what type of hand
Takeout double is a bridge term
If you double the 1NT opening bids with exactly the same type of hands
as people who call it a penalty orientated double
Then you use the term "take-out double" just to confuse opponents.
If it show a other type of hand then the opponents have a right to know
what type of hand
Co Wiersma
Dec 1, 2011, 8:54:15 AM12/1/11
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Op 1-12-2011 2:08, derek schreef:
If it promise the same type of hand as a penalty orientated double, why
then do you name it different?
then do you name it different?
OldPalooka
Dec 1, 2011, 9:34:17 AM12/1/11
to
resembles KQJTxxx Ax Ax Ax. With AQxx AQx Kxx Kxx you want partner to
bid his 5 card suit (and too bad if he does not have one).
Co Wiersma
Dec 1, 2011, 9:54:22 AM12/1/11
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Op 1-12-2011 15:34, OldPalooka schreef:
Well I think the first hand is extremely rare and I dont think its
suited for a penalty double as you know for sure it will not be the end
of things
The second hand is what I know as a penalty orientated hand
suited for a penalty double as you know for sure it will not be the end
of things
The second hand is what I know as a penalty orientated hand
Will in New Haven
Dec 1, 2011, 10:01:53 AM12/1/11
to
Why would you want your partner to bid if he doesn't have a long suit?
Unless you _always_ have three cards for him six is long, five is not.
That second hand is a penalty double. If you are always going to have
three-card support for partner, you aren't doubling very often. The
first hand is a penalty double also but someone will certainly bid
(you'd be delighted if no one did) and then you can bid your long
suit.
I think "takeout double" is an odd description of a double showing a
strong balanced hand.
Will in New Haven
Dec 1, 2011, 10:04:09 AM12/1/11
to
passes and also to begin to show the power of the hand.
>
> The second hand is what I know as a penalty orientated hand-
Obviously, it is. I know people who play that double shows a strong,
balanced hand and alert it as "equal strength" because they never
leave it in, not because of the nature of the doubler's hand.
OldPalooka
Dec 1, 2011, 1:44:42 PM12/1/11
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On Dec 1, 7:01 am, Will in New Haven <bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com>
wrote:
No doubt, but if your partnership takes out more often than not, the
double is for takeout regardless of what you think it looks like. It
is somewhat like the situation you face with your cooperative penalty
doubles of overcalls. Most hands qualify for a negative double.
Yours are defined as penalty oriented, mine as takeout oriented.
How I presented these two hands has very little to do with my personal
preferences. Co was trying to pigeon hole the second as a penalty
oriented double because that is his bias. I have known plenty of [not
very good] players who expected their partners to bid when they
doubled 1NT, and would double with the second hand.
wrote:
double is for takeout regardless of what you think it looks like. It
is somewhat like the situation you face with your cooperative penalty
doubles of overcalls. Most hands qualify for a negative double.
Yours are defined as penalty oriented, mine as takeout oriented.
How I presented these two hands has very little to do with my personal
preferences. Co was trying to pigeon hole the second as a penalty
oriented double because that is his bias. I have known plenty of [not
very good] players who expected their partners to bid when they
doubled 1NT, and would double with the second hand.
Lone Locust of the Apocalypse
Dec 1, 2011, 5:02:59 PM12/1/11
to
You might ask yourself why it came to be called a takeout double and
not some other term. While the two-word phrase has a bridge meaning,
and commonly applies to a specific treatment, the phrase has an etymology
and the individual words themselves still have meaning.
i.e. to most Americans (and other jurisdictions as appropriate) if
you said "stop sign" we would immediately form a mental image of the
eight-sided red sign used on our roads, but you wouldn't argue that,
say, a rectangular blue sign that had the word STOP on it wasn't also
a stop sign.
>If you double the 1NT opening bids with exactly the same type of hands
>as people who call it a penalty orientated double
>Then you use the term "take-out double" just to confuse opponents.
Sure, I agree with this, but on the other hand if a pair has an agreement
that partner is expected to bid most or nearly all of the time then
calling it takeout isn't wrong IMO.
not some other term. While the two-word phrase has a bridge meaning,
and commonly applies to a specific treatment, the phrase has an etymology
and the individual words themselves still have meaning.
i.e. to most Americans (and other jurisdictions as appropriate) if
you said "stop sign" we would immediately form a mental image of the
eight-sided red sign used on our roads, but you wouldn't argue that,
say, a rectangular blue sign that had the word STOP on it wasn't also
a stop sign.
>If you double the 1NT opening bids with exactly the same type of hands
>as people who call it a penalty orientated double
>Then you use the term "take-out double" just to confuse opponents.
that partner is expected to bid most or nearly all of the time then
calling it takeout isn't wrong IMO.
Lone Locust of the Apocalypse
Dec 1, 2011, 5:06:01 PM12/1/11
to
zo...@ninthbit.com (Lone Locust of the Apocalypse) writes:
>with the double, not the hand making the double.
>
>I will grant that in many people's minds it's equated with a particular
>hand in a limited set of contexts, and concede that I would avoid saying
>"takeout double" when it is therefore likely to be confusing.
Sorry, I meant to write "particular type of hand."
>Will in New Haven <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> writes:
>>I think "takeout double" is an odd description of a double showing a
>>strong balanced hand.
>
>At the lowest level, "takeout" describes what you expect partner to do
>>I think "takeout double" is an odd description of a double showing a
>>strong balanced hand.
>
>with the double, not the hand making the double.
>
>I will grant that in many people's minds it's equated with a particular
>hand in a limited set of contexts, and concede that I would avoid saying
>"takeout double" when it is therefore likely to be confusing.
Sorry, I meant to write "particular type of hand."
Lone Locust of the Apocalypse
Dec 1, 2011, 5:05:19 PM12/1/11
to
Will in New Haven <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> writes:
>I think "takeout double" is an odd description of a double showing a
>strong balanced hand.
>strong balanced hand.
Adam Beneschan
Dec 1, 2011, 6:55:05 PM12/1/11
to
On Dec 1, 2:02 pm, zo...@ninthbit.com (Lone Locust of the Apocalypse)
wrote:
have anything to do with their etymology or the meanings of the
individual words is often a poor assumption. Just look at the title
of this thread, for example :) :) :)
-- Adam
wrote:
> Co Wiersma <co.wier...@xs4all.nl> writes:
> >Takeout double is a bridge term
>
> You might ask yourself why it came to be called a takeout double and
> not some other term. While the two-word phrase has a bridge meaning,
> and commonly applies to a specific treatment, the phrase has an etymology
> and the individual words themselves still have meaning.
I dunno... in general, assuming that bridge terms have meanings that
> >Takeout double is a bridge term
>
> You might ask yourself why it came to be called a takeout double and
> not some other term. While the two-word phrase has a bridge meaning,
> and commonly applies to a specific treatment, the phrase has an etymology
> and the individual words themselves still have meaning.
have anything to do with their etymology or the meanings of the
individual words is often a poor assumption. Just look at the title
of this thread, for example :) :) :)
-- Adam
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