Response sytem to 2C with no HCP but 6 Spades?

[Bertil]

Partner opens 2C and our agreemen is to respond with a strong 5-card
major or else 2D.
Holding a 6=2=3=2 hand with 6 spades I would respond 2D and partner
rebids 3C.
What agreements could allow me to bid 3S? I dont expect this to happen
soon.

Bertil

[Barry Margolin]

In article
<55f3c19f-bd2d-4ba2...@f30g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,

My partner and I play an agreement where 2D is used for any positive
hand: at least an Ace or 2 Queens. 2H shows a negative hand with no
6-card suit, and any other bid shows a negative hand with at least 6
cards in that suit (2NT shows hearts).

So in our system, you would bid 2S in response to 2C, and opener can
pass it if he has a minimum 2C.

--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA

[Frances]

If you have six spades then after 2C - 2D - 3C you would always bid
3S, even with 0 HCP. Partner has shown a game forcing hand, he
doesn't need you to have high cards to make game, but he does need to
know if you have a long suit. You'd bid 3S over 3C even looking at

xxxxx
xxxx
xxx
x

[Stu Goodgold]

You are playing a basic system over a strong 2C. 2D is forced by your system, so now everything you bid should be natural (unless you agreed to a 2nd negative, which you failed to mention). 3S shows spades and denies a good suit since you didn't bid 2S on your first reponse. You cannot pass 3C, so you have to bid something. Make it as descriptive as you can.

(As for passing after 2C-2D;3C, a one-time partner did that to me in a regional when I held 30 HCP. He is deceased now.)

-Stu Goodgold
San Jose, CA

[judyorcarl]

Overriding everything: If responder's first response is so violently
constrained, you must have very very very detailed understandings
about his second bid, which have to begin to catch up showing 1-
suiters, 2-suiters, and misfitting 3-suiters of every strength.

Once you try to work out those understandings, you may find it hard to
remember the reason for your agreement.

Carl

[Sid]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 12:55:52 -0800 (PST), Stu Goodgold
<st...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>(As for passing after 2C-2D;3C, a one-time partner did that to me in a regional when I held 30 HCP. He is deceased now.)

It sounds like you did a Mrs Bennett to him. :)

Sid

[Player]

What agreements? Possibly the fact that you are playing Bridge and not
tiddleywinks. Do you have a 2nd negative in your arsenal? You would
choose this if you did.
Ron

[judyorcarl]

If you have 2nd negative in your arsenal, that gets you past this
round, for sure.

But all it does is put the problem off to the next round(s). Exactly
at what point may you show your suit and how do you do it?

(By the way, a 2nd negative after 2C-2D; 3C-? has approximately zero
utility, in contrast to 2C-2D; 2H/S-? In the latter case, it could
allow playing in 3 of opener's major. What does 2C-2D; 3C-3D allow?)

Carl

[Fred.]

My own view s that you should make your system for bidding
after 2C as simple as possible so you can remember it when
an actual 2C hand finally rolls around.

I'd also think that there would be a world of difference between

KJT9x xxx xxx xx and
KJT9x xxx Axx xx

As a consequence, each of your initial responses may be either
positive or negative. So, your problem with a long not strong
major suit is how do you show your shape on the second round
and also show positive or negative after bidding 2D the first
time. It looks to me as if you are running out of room.

One approach I've seen is to make all the responses except
2D to be semi-negative, and 2D negative or waiting with
a second round bid reserved for a true negative hand. This
will probably not help you with a bad hand and a bad long
major.

Fred.

[Bertil]

Now assume your second bid shows points, controls or quick tricks,
then it would be 3D in this case , telling partner you have no usefull
honor cards.
He will next rebid something and you could now bid the long major
suit.
In the specific case I held 6 spade spotcards , partner held AKQ. and
bid game.

Bertil

[Fred.]

I think the argument for the old-fashioned
2D negative goes beyond its simplicity.
Opener can show the nature of the 2C opening
at the lowest possible level, and the
parnership can focus on cooperative bidding for
level and strain.

Positive responses eat up more room, but come
when the partneship is certainly going to game.

In your example, after 2D, responder gets to
show the spades at the 3 level and may still
be in a situation to show club support as well
below the 4S level. Doing it your way, if
opener is thoughtless enough to rebid anything
but 3H (is this a general purpose waiting bid?)
over 3D, responder would need to go to the
4-level to show spades or clubs. And, responder
holding a major of the wrong color will need to
go to the the 4-level in all cases.

I can't help thinking that on many auctions the
last call will come from someone forced into
masterminding the hand.

Fred.

[Bertil]

The 2D waiting bid lets opener bid 2NT, which is likely in 1/3 of the
time.
Responder can then make a transfer did.

Bertil

[Fred.]

I think you are telling me that you have a
system that works fairly well on 1/3 of the
hands.

Fred.

[Michael Angelo Ravera]

Here is the condensed version of the the response structure that I regularly use. You can read more about it at www.daveandki.com, if you are interested. It is basically natural at the 2-level C-H-Pesque at the 3 level, and treats the 2C opener sort of like a 2NT opener at the 4-level.

after 2C [STR F2/2NT ART]
2D: Negative, can't promise 2 tricks, but see bust transfers
2M: Positive (2+ tricks), Natural, no worthwile second suit
2NT: Slam forcing (4+ tricks) any slam force that can't just bid the right contract
3C: Positive (2+ tricks), Catchall, Balanced or minor oriented
3D: Positive (2+ tricks), both majors
3M: Positive (2+ tricks), named suit and a minor
3NT: Positive (2+ tricks), three suits
4C: Your favorite Ace/keycard/Control count inquiry
4D/4H: Bust Transfer to the next suit. A hand that will likely be worthless unless played in the responder's long major.

After Opener's natural suit rebid, the cheapest suit rebid by responder is artificial and shows a balanced hand that might not take any tricks. The second cheapest suit rebid (below 3NT) is artificial and shows a trick and a misfit.

I usually like not to have anything much better than a king when I do a 4-level transfer. If your hand might actually be worth a trick in some other strain, you probably want to give a 2D response and then hope opener rebids 2NT so that you can transfer or bid your own suit naturally after opener's suit rebid.

So, in response to your original question, in the system that I play, you would bid 4H[TFR S] in response to a 2C opener. Are you going to be in 4S-1 on some hands where you could have been in 4C=, +130? Maybe. But, It is very difficult to stop in 4C after a 2C opener even when it is right. Also, opponents may well be able to play in 4H-1, +50/+100 or even in 4H=, -420/-620. Your transfer managed to get that alternative out of the box. It rarely pays to play 4C in any form of scoring especially when the potential for +420/+620 is so great. But, in many cases, when 5C or 3NT makes, 4S will also.

In the system that you have outlined, I am pretty sure that you are obligated to give a second negative (However you do that) to the 3C rebid. Are you going to play 5C-1 or 3NT-2 on some hands where 4S is cold? Yep! Probably more often than you would like to.

I am not a big fan of the "Dominating hand dominates and weak hand goes along for the ride" philosophy.