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Precision 1D-1M-1NT = 11-12 HCP, alertable in ACBL land?
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Bud H
Feb 9, 2012, 6:33:02 PM2/9/12
to
The subject says it all.
Precision 1D (2+ diamonds, less than 16 "points") - 1M - 1NT = 11-12
HCP
Alertable in the ACBL?
Presumably, at a local club the lack of an alert has led to opponents
supposedly getting "stolen from" not realizing opener's hand is so
weak.
It is true from http://www.acbl.org/play/alertprocedures.html , that
"a 1NT rebid if strong (may have 16 or more HCP) requires an Alert.”
In this case, it has slightly LESS than the "standard" 12-14 or 13-15
HCP (if playing strong notrump openings)
Precision 1D (2+ diamonds, less than 16 "points") - 1M - 1NT = 11-12
HCP
Alertable in the ACBL?
Presumably, at a local club the lack of an alert has led to opponents
supposedly getting "stolen from" not realizing opener's hand is so
weak.
It is true from http://www.acbl.org/play/alertprocedures.html , that
"a 1NT rebid if strong (may have 16 or more HCP) requires an Alert.”
In this case, it has slightly LESS than the "standard" 12-14 or 13-15
HCP (if playing strong notrump openings)
Stu Goodgold
Feb 9, 2012, 7:15:19 PM2/9/12
to
Not alertable. It is within the range of a standard 1m opener. What is alertable is if 1x-1y;1N shows 15-17 or such.
Presumably you are playing 1N is 13-15 or 13-16, so these ranges are excluded from your sequence 1D-1M;1N.
No doubt there are pundits who will say alert it.
-Stu Goodgold
San Jose, CA
Presumably you are playing 1N is 13-15 or 13-16, so these ranges are excluded from your sequence 1D-1M;1N.
No doubt there are pundits who will say alert it.
-Stu Goodgold
San Jose, CA
Adam Beneschan
Feb 9, 2012, 7:20:21 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 3:33 pm, Bud H <budh9...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The subject says it all.
>
> Precision 1D (2+ diamonds, less than 16 "points") - 1M - 1NT = 11-12
> HCP
>
> Alertable in the ACBL?
>
> Presumably, at a local club the lack of an alert has led to opponents
> supposedly getting "stolen from" not realizing opener's hand is so
> weak.
>
> It is true fromhttp://www.acbl.org/play/alertprocedures.html, that
> The subject says it all.
>
> Precision 1D (2+ diamonds, less than 16 "points") - 1M - 1NT = 11-12
> HCP
>
> Alertable in the ACBL?
>
> Presumably, at a local club the lack of an alert has led to opponents
> supposedly getting "stolen from" not realizing opener's hand is so
> weak.
>
> "a 1NT rebid if strong (may have 16 or more HCP) requires an Alert.”
>
> In this case, it has slightly LESS than the "standard" 12-14 or 13-15
> HCP (if playing strong notrump openings)
I'm not sure whether it's technically alertable; I lean toward "no"
>
> In this case, it has slightly LESS than the "standard" 12-14 or 13-15
> HCP (if playing strong notrump openings)
but it's fuzzy. However, I think that the explanation of 1D should
include this. A sufficient explanation of 1D should be something like
"11-15 HCP, could be short (two or more) if the hand is balanced and
otherwise shows four or more [if that's your agreement], shows 11-12
if balanced". That's a lot, but since Precision is a system that
probably most players in your club aren't intimately familiar with,
you should be willing to say more so that your opponents get some idea
of the basic nature of the system. When I played Precision years ago,
I wrote descriptions of our basic openings (1C, 1D, 1NT--for us it was
variable) on a 3x5 card and showed it to the opponents before the
round.
-- Adam
Herb
Feb 9, 2012, 7:26:34 PM2/9/12
to
of players, and happens to be one where Precision-style systems are very
rare, it would be a matter of courtesy to announce at the beginning of
each round something like "We are playing precision".
This because too many players never look at their opponents card before
play; particularly in relatively low-experience club games. Some pairs
may not even HAVE a filled out convention card - much less the required Two.
- Herb
Barry Margolin
Feb 9, 2012, 7:31:53 PM2/9/12
to
In article
<cb92962d-dbcb-4a3a...@p7g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
The expected strength of a 1NT rebid is anything from the minimum for
your original opening to the minimum for your opening 1NT. Since your
1D opening is 11-15, your 1NT rebid has to include 11-12 unless you play
mini-NT. I assume you play 13-15 as your opening 1NT, hence your rebid
must be below this.
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA
<cb92962d-dbcb-4a3a...@p7g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
your original opening to the minimum for your opening 1NT. Since your
1D opening is 11-15, your 1NT rebid has to include 11-12 unless you play
mini-NT. I assume you play 13-15 as your opening 1NT, hence your rebid
must be below this.
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA
Travis Crump
Feb 9, 2012, 10:22:31 PM2/9/12
to
On 02/09/2012 07:26 PM, Herb wrote:
> On 2/9/2012 4:15 PM, Stu Goodgold wrote:
>> Not alertable. It is within the range of a standard 1m opener. What
>> is alertable is if 1x-1y;1N shows 15-17 or such.
>> Presumably you are playing 1N is 13-15 or 13-16, so these ranges are
>> excluded from your sequence 1D-1M;1N.
>>
>> No doubt there are pundits who will say alert it.
>>
>> -Stu Goodgold
>> San Jose, CA
>
> No pundit here, but my feeling is that if the club game has a wide range
> of players, and happens to be one where Precision-style systems are very
> rare, it would be a matter of courtesy to announce at the beginning of
> each round something like "We are playing precision".
>
Is there really a 'standard' way to play this sequence in precision. ie
> On 2/9/2012 4:15 PM, Stu Goodgold wrote:
>> Not alertable. It is within the range of a standard 1m opener. What
>> is alertable is if 1x-1y;1N shows 15-17 or such.
>> Presumably you are playing 1N is 13-15 or 13-16, so these ranges are
>> excluded from your sequence 1D-1M;1N.
>>
>> No doubt there are pundits who will say alert it.
>>
>> -Stu Goodgold
>> San Jose, CA
>
> No pundit here, but my feeling is that if the club game has a wide range
> of players, and happens to be one where Precision-style systems are very
> rare, it would be a matter of courtesy to announce at the beginning of
> each round something like "We are playing precision".
>
does anyone that claims to play precision really play Wei precision from
30-40 years ago however Wei defined this sequence? Possible meanings
for 1N that I've encountered at the table:
a) both minors
b) both minors with longer diamonds
c) balanced outside NT opening range. Possible NT ranges: 14-16,
13-15, 10-12, 15-17, 12-15.
d) 11-15 balanced with 4 cards in the other major, 1N isn't opened
with a 4 card major.
e) 11-15 with 4 cards in other major, not necessarily balanced,
usually only after 1D-1S.
Obviously some of these meanings should be alerted, at the very least a
and b. As to the present case, it is hard to see how alerting would be
helpful. Are the opponents really to have us believe that they'd behave
differently after a 11-12 than after a 11-13 especially since they
already both had a turn to call and passed. At most I'd just explain it
before the opening lead or if asked[surprisingly I've encountered people
who don't even really know what 1N means since they've never actually
analyzed all the implications of their system]
blackshoe
Feb 10, 2012, 3:23:52 AM2/10/12
to
Not pundits. Idiots, maybe.
blackshoe
Feb 10, 2012, 3:31:45 AM2/10/12
to
If you did that today, Adam, you would be going far beyond what ACBL disclosure rules require. I suspect the same was true back when you were doing it. :-)
I would not alert the 1NT rebid. If asked to explain the auction I would say "opener has shown a balanced 11-12 HCP with fewer than four of whatever M responder bid, and possibly as few as two diamonds. He might also have anywhere from two to five clubs."
I would not alert the 1NT rebid. If asked to explain the auction I would say "opener has shown a balanced 11-12 HCP with fewer than four of whatever M responder bid, and possibly as few as two diamonds. He might also have anywhere from two to five clubs."
David Stevenson
Feb 10, 2012, 7:39:13 AM2/10/12
to
Bud H wrote
>Presumably, at a local club the lack of an alert has led to opponents
>supposedly getting "stolen from" not realizing opener's hand is so
>weak.
Cr*p. The board is over, they discover something is slightly off, now
it is NOT THEIR FAULT they got a bad board. Widdums.
>It is true from http://www.acbl.org/play/alertprocedures.html , that
>"a 1NT rebid if strong (may have 16 or more HCP) requires an Alert.”
... which it doesn't.
>In this case, it has slightly LESS than the "standard" 12-14 or 13-15
>HCP (if playing strong notrump openings)
--
David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways
Liverpool, England, UK bluejak on BBO Mbl: +44 7778 409 955
<webj...@googlemail.com> EBL TD Tel: +44 151 677 7412
bluejak666 on Skype Bridgepage: http://blakjak.org/brg_menu.htm
>The subject says it all.
>
>Precision 1D (2+ diamonds, less than 16 "points") - 1M - 1NT = 11-12
>HCP
>
>Alertable in the ACBL?
No.
>
>Precision 1D (2+ diamonds, less than 16 "points") - 1M - 1NT = 11-12
>HCP
>
>Alertable in the ACBL?
>Presumably, at a local club the lack of an alert has led to opponents
>supposedly getting "stolen from" not realizing opener's hand is so
>weak.
it is NOT THEIR FAULT they got a bad board. Widdums.
>It is true from http://www.acbl.org/play/alertprocedures.html , that
>"a 1NT rebid if strong (may have 16 or more HCP) requires an Alert.”
>In this case, it has slightly LESS than the "standard" 12-14 or 13-15
>HCP (if playing strong notrump openings)
David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways
Liverpool, England, UK bluejak on BBO Mbl: +44 7778 409 955
<webj...@googlemail.com> EBL TD Tel: +44 151 677 7412
bluejak666 on Skype Bridgepage: http://blakjak.org/brg_menu.htm
Fred.
Feb 10, 2012, 8:37:16 AM2/10/12
to
I'm not sure Adam was going beyond disclosure
requirments, though he probably was going way
beyond what was usually enforced.
The problem is that the formal partnership
agreement may be 11-15 HCP 2+ diamonds, but the
Precision 1D bid is mostly defined by the hands
which it is not. Disclosure rules do require
disclosing alternative bids if asked. By writing
this down, Adam was simply speeding up the process.
One of my pet peeves is Precision pairs who
want to stop with the formal explanation. There
is really a pretty wide variation in the treatments
of 1NT and 2C, both of which greatly affect what
a 1D opener may be.
Fred.
requirments, though he probably was going way
beyond what was usually enforced.
The problem is that the formal partnership
agreement may be 11-15 HCP 2+ diamonds, but the
Precision 1D bid is mostly defined by the hands
which it is not. Disclosure rules do require
disclosing alternative bids if asked. By writing
this down, Adam was simply speeding up the process.
One of my pet peeves is Precision pairs who
want to stop with the formal explanation. There
is really a pretty wide variation in the treatments
of 1NT and 2C, both of which greatly affect what
a 1D opener may be.
Fred.
Bud H
Feb 10, 2012, 9:04:26 PM2/10/12
to
Is it also true that the 1D Precision opening bid is announced "may be short" only in the ACBL and no mention of 11-15 HCP range is ever given (unless asked)?
blackshoe
Feb 11, 2012, 12:28:09 AM2/11/12
to
That is correct procedure according to the regulation. However, I've seen quite a few Precision players alert the limited openings on the grounds that they are limited to 15 HCP. IMO, this is not correct procedure.
Fred.
Feb 11, 2012, 3:34:03 PM2/11/12
to
I don't have a problem that I have to ask
about the 1D call. My probem is that I
often get poor informaton when I do ask.
Fred.
about the 1D call. My probem is that I
often get poor informaton when I do ask.
Fred.
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