What's the best way to explore bidding a slam on this hand?

[Tom]

Club monthly championship, playing 2/1

None vulnerable, South deals:

W N E S
1D
P 1H P 2S
P ?

North holds:

J87 AK982 Q4 KJ3

[Dave Flower]

On Saturday, 20 April 2013 17:49:37 UTC+1, Tom wrote:
> Club monthly championship, playing 2/1 None vulnerable, South deals: W N E S 1D P 1H P 2S P ? North holds: J87 AK982 Q4 KJ3

Well, I'm not particularly impressed with this hand, as I don't feel that it is worth 14 points.
Anyway, I'll temporise with 2NT and see what partner bids next

Dave Flower

[HoneyMonster]

On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 09:54:57 -0700, Dave Flower wrote:

> On Saturday, 20 April 2013 17:49:37 UTC+1, Tom wrote:
>> Club monthly championship, playing 2/1 None vulnerable, South deals: W
>> N E S 1D P 1H P 2S P ? North holds: J87 AK982 Q4 KJ3
>
> Well, I'm not particularly impressed with this hand, as I don't feel
> that it is worth 14 points.

I don't see what's wrong with it. The Qx and Jxx are in partner's suits,
after all.

> Anyway, I'll temporise with 2NT and see what partner bids next

So will I, and if he bids 3NT, I'll bid 4NT to invite six.

[Sid]

"Tom" wrote in message
news:5172c724$0$44644$c3e8da3$4605...@news.astraweb.com...

==========

Since 2S is forcing to game, mark time now with 2NT. Partner's next
bid will steer you to the right path.

Much like FSF.

Sid

[Travis Crump]

What do people think a 2S bid shows? I'm expecting AQxx x AKJxxx Ax as
an absolute bare minimum. I think the only real question is how to look
for 7, 6 ought to be laydown.

[HoneyMonster]

Perhaps 4NT is a bit of an underbid, but if he has that hand with a
Diamond fewer and a Heart or a Club more, 6NT isn't so easy.

[axm...@hotmail.com]

Pard needs to know where your controls are. Rebid 3H and then by
bidding clubs it clarifies that 3H promised HA, denies the CA/DA and
promises the CK. If pard can bid spades again... then by showing
diamonds he can select the best spot easily.

regards
axman

[Charles Brenner]

I think it's essential to bid 3D now.

Bidding 2NT may be ok if - but only if - partner bids 3NT. Suppose
instead partner bids 3S or 3D or 3H, we then "reluctantly" admit to
the golden diamond Q and with the bidding at the four level we have
shown nothing at all.

I agree with Travis' assessment of partner's bare minimum. In
particular a 6-card diamond suit is overwhelmingly likely. If partner
has only 5 diamonds they almost surely are solidified by Qx and if not
it can only be because partner has 3-4 good hearts. No matter what,
the dQ is worth bidding.

In short, while we may back into 6NT, at the moment my vision is
focused on diamonds or maybe hearts.

[Charles Brenner]

"Not easy" in the sense that playing 6NT would involve a lot of
furrowing of brow analyzing which good line is best, but even opposite
an obvious 1S, not 2S, rebid like AQxx,xx,AKJxx,Ax isn't 6NT a
sterling contract?

[france...@googlemail.com]

On Sunday, April 21, 2013 8:30:26 AM UTC+1, Charles Brenner wrote:
> On Apr 20, 9:49 am, Tom <toman...@notmye-mailaddress.com> wrote: > Club monthly championship, playing 2/1 > > None vulnerable, South deals: > > W         N        E         S >                              1D > P         1H       P         2S > P         ? > > North holds: > > J87    AK982   Q4   KJ3 I think it's essential to bid 3D now. Bidding 2NT may be ok if - but only if - partner bids 3NT. Suppose instead partner bids 3S or 3D or 3H, we then "reluctantly" admit to the golden diamond Q and with the bidding at the four level we have shown nothing at all. I agree with Travis' assessment of partner's bare minimum. In particular a 6-card diamond suit is overwhelmingly likely. If partner has only 5 diamonds they almost surely are solidified by Qx and if not it can only be because partner has 3-4 good hearts. No matter what, the dQ is worth bidding. In short, while we may back into 6NT, at the moment my vision is focused on diamonds or maybe hearts.

Yes the DQ is huge but I will still bid 2NT now because it's cheap. If partner bids 3S, 3D or 3H I am not at all worried about continuing with 4D to show a diamond honour. It's not 'reluctant' because it's going past 3NT and I've already shown willingness to play in 3NT.

If partner bids 3NT I'll bid 4D, not 4NT. That gives an excellent description of my hand, and I expect to end in slam, but I want to finish in the _right_ slam. Opposite AKxx x AKJxxx Ax I want to play in 7D; opposite AQxx Qx AKJxx Ax probably 6NT. If I bid 3D now partner will think I've got 3 of them because it's an expensive bid.

[Charles Brenner]

On Apr 21, 2:48 am, franceshin...@googlemail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, April 21, 2013 8:30:26 AM UTC+1, Charles Brenner wrote:
> > On Apr 20, 9:49 am, Tom <toman...@notmye-mailaddress.com> wrote: > Club monthly championship, playing 2/1 > > None vulnerable, South deals: > > W         N        E         S >                              1D > P         1H       P         2S > P         ? > > North holds: > > J87    AK982   Q4   KJ3 I think it's essential to bid 3D now. Bidding 2NT may be ok if - but only if - partner bids 3NT. Suppose instead partner bids 3S or 3D or 3H, we then "reluctantly" admit to the golden diamond Q and with the bidding at the four level we have shown nothing at all. I agree with Travis' assessment of partner's bare minimum. In particular a 6-card diamond suit is overwhelmingly likely. If partner has only 5 diamonds they almost surely are solidified by Qx and if not it can only be because partner has 3-4 good hearts. No matter what, the dQ is worth bidding. In short, while we may back into 6NT, at the moment my vision is focused on diamonds or maybe hearts.
>
> Yes the DQ is huge but I will still bid 2NT now because it's cheap.  If partner bids 3S, 3D or 3H I am not at all worried about continuing with 4D to show a diamond honour. It's not 'reluctant' because it's going past 3NT and I've already shown willingness to play in 3NT.

The phrase "already shown willingness" is well chosen but I'm not
convinced. 2NT could be on a very spare club guard -- even Q9x if the
rest of the hand has little of joy. But with clubs any weaker than
KJ10 I would be uneasy about rebidding NT (though sometimes we make
uneasy bids). That leaves a lot of intermediate club holdings and
hands with which, after 2NT - 3S/D/H, I would be looking for an excuse
not to bid 3NT.

Saying you bid 2NT "because it's cheap" is to agree that it's not a
serious statement about playing NT. You can't have it both ways:
1) Bid 2NT because it's cheap,
2) Claim that 1C 1H; 2S 2N; 3S 4D is seriously forward going because
3NT is a known safe haven.

> If partner bids 3NT I'll bid 4D, not 4NT.

Of course; I knew that you would.

> ... If I bid 3D now partner will think I've got 3 of them because it's an expensive bid.

That's also nicely put, but I'm not sure that partner should feel that
way nor that it will matter. Qx is probably better than xxx, and if
partner's diamonds are better than AJ10xx which this auction does
imply, Qx is nearly equivalent to Qxx. As for economizing on bidding
room, the two bids that 3D robs opener of are at the same time bids
that opener mostly would use to probe for a diamond fit.

[france...@googlemail.com]

Saying you bid 2NT "because it's cheap" is to agree that it's not a serious statement about playing NT. You can't have it both ways: 1) Bid 2NT because it's cheap, 2) Claim that 1C 1H; 2S 2N; 3S 4D is seriously forward going because 3NT is a known safe haven.

Yes I can!
Given the choice between a range of different bids, all of which have pluses and minuses, I use the 'cheapness' as one factor in deciding which bid to make.

But bidding 2NT still says I'm happy to play in NT. After all, if partner has AKQx Qx AKJ10x 10x he's going to be stuck bidding 3H over 3D and we won't be certain if he had 3 or 4 hearts; while if we bid 2NT we've immediately got the NT right-sided and he has an easy raise to 3NT.

Even worse, if he has AKQx xx AKJxx Qx, what's he supposed to bid over 3D?

That's why making a cheap bid helps.

For me, by the way, 3C would be 4th suit forcing, not natural, and is the bid I'd make on Jxx KJxxx xx Jxx. So 2NT still shows a proper club stop.

While you might like to have at least KJ10 with a weaker hand, here you are not planning to lose the lead more than once and KJx is plenty.

[Tom]

In article <5172c724$0$44644$c3e8da3$4605...@news.astraweb.com>,
toma...@notmye-mailaddress.com says...

Here's the full deal:

J87
AK982
Q4
KJ3

963 K42
54 J763
T532 76
9875 AT62

AQT5
QT
AKJ98
Q4



6N was worth 86%. What's the best sequence to get there?

[Travis Crump]

1D-1H;
2N-3D;
3S-6N

3D is checkback.

[RonfromLao]

Playing a system where 1S is nf, this shows a very good hand by South. 2NT would be Blackout or Ingberman for everyone I know. My bid on this hand is 3C. Over this, Sth would bid 3NT with some 4252 hand or 4153 hand with a C stopper,3H with 3 card H support, (rare) or 3D otherwise. Over 3NT/3D I bid 4NT quantitative.
Ron

[Bruce Evans]

In article <kl2lcn$psi$1...@dont-email.me>,

Since it is only 50% played by North, what is the best sequence to not
get there? :-).

2S is an overbid by 1 trick if not 2. Try making game opposite a hand
that would pass 1S, say xxx AJxxx xx xxx, or a hand that will get to
game after 1S, say xxx AKxxx xx xxx.

>1D-1H;
>2N-3D;
>3S-6N
>
>3D is checkback.

Agricultural, and wrongsides it.

I like 2NT (waiting/relay) by North over 2S, which also wrongsides it.

Bruce

[Will in New Haven]

On Apr 22, 1:05 am, Tom <toman...@notmye-mailaddress.com> wrote:
> In article <5172c724$0$44644$c3e8da3$46056...@news.astraweb.com>,
> toman...@notmye-mailaddress.com says...

>
>
>
> >Club monthly championship, playing 2/1
>
> >None vulnerable, South deals:
>
> >W         N        E         S
> >                             1D
> >P         1H       P         2S
> >P         ?
>
> >North holds:
>
> >J87    AK982   Q4   KJ3
>
> Here's the full deal:
>
>                   J87
>                   AK982
>                   Q4
>                   KJ3
>
> 963                                  K42
> 54                                   J763
> T532                                 76
> 9875                                 AT62
>
>                   AQT5
>                   QT
>                   AKJ98
>                   Q4
>
> 6N was worth 86%.  What's the best sequence to get there?

1D - 1H - 1S - 3NT - 6NT

--
Will in New Haven

[S. Needham]

Thinking about all of the possible hands proposed for opener, I might be
inclined to trot out a favorite gambit: RKCB in a strain in which I don't
intend to play.

What's partner's worst hand, depending upon
aggression/proclivities/agreements? Something like AQxx (J or Q) x AJTxx AQ
or AKQx Qx AJTxx Qx? (and with the first I'd be inclined to rebid 2N with
checkback available; the actual sequence for me, if not playing the 1S rebid
as forcing with XYZ available, would be more shape and concentration, at
worst like AKQx x AKJxxx Qx or the same with H and C reversed.) If I bid 4N
now, and I get a "3", I know 6N is probably at worst a finesse; if I get a
"4" I am free to continue with follow-up RKCB stuff and ask for SQ and
outside DK, exploring a grand.


"Tom" <toma...@notmye-mailaddress.com> wrote in message
news:5172c724$0$44644$c3e8da3$4605...@news.astraweb.com...

[Charles Brenner]

On Apr 21, 2:01 pm, franceshin...@googlemail.com wrote:
> Saying you bid 2NT "because it's cheap" is to agree that it's not a serious statement about playing NT. You can't have it both ways: 1) Bid 2NT because it's cheap, 2) Claim that 1C 1H; 2S 2N; 3S 4D is seriously forward going because 3NT is a known safe haven.
>
> Yes I can!
> Given the choice between a range of different bids, all of which have pluses and minuses, I use the 'cheapness' as one factor in deciding which bid to make.
>
> But bidding 2NT still says I'm happy to play in NT. After all, if partner has AKQx Qx AKJ10x 10x he's going to be stuck bidding 3H over 3D and we won't be certain if he had 3 or 4 hearts; while if we bid 2NT we've immediately got the NT right-sided and he has an easy raise to 3NT.

You are reading me very selectively. I didn't say 2NT doesn't mean NT;
it does. I specifically suggested Q9x as a lower bound, and by a lucky
chance that holding jibes perfectly with the hope of your example 10x
in clubs above.

But having bid 2NT with Q9x -- felicitously if partner has your
example -- you will I hope feel less sanguine about reiterating the NT
pledge if partner makes a bid -- 3D or especially 3 of either major --
that strongly suggests short clubs. Indeed the bidding conversation
I'm describing

player A: "I suggest a NT contract (2NT)"
player B: "Do you feel strongly? I have doubt (3 of a suit)"
player A: "No, if you aren't warm on the idea, with my minimal stopper
we better not (4D)"

is so routine I'm surprised at your suggestion that it doesn't exist.

> Even worse, if he has AKQx xx AKJxx Qx, what's he supposed to bid over 3D?
>
> That's why making a cheap bid helps.

How is your question above relevant to the present problem? Were the
responder much weaker then making the cheaper bid would be important,
but that's not the case.

> While you might like to have at least KJ10 with a weaker hand, here you are not planning to lose the lead more than once and KJx is plenty.

That comment isn't relevant to our discussion, since neither of us
would countenance bidding 2NT then bidding NT again with the actual
responding hand regardless of the clubs. Is it perhaps that you
imagine that my 3D vote somehow relates to insufficiently strong clubs
for 2NT? I can't imagine how I might have given such an impression;
hope I did not. The clubs are fine for 2NT; I just think there's a
better bid.

[Travis Crump]

Are you misreading the auction, on my auction South is playing it. If
you didn't notice, yes, I completely disagree with 2S over 1H as well.

[Bruce Evans]

In article <kl3vn9$kp6$1...@dont-email.me>,

>Are you misreading the auction, on my auction South is playing it. If
>you didn't notice, yes, I completely disagree with 2S over 1H as well.

Sorry, I did misread it. I didn't notice thar you were disagreeing with
2S so much as to not mention this.

2NT is a good practical bid, which I might avoid by over-thinking it.

Bruce

[lowerline]

Op maandag 22 april 2013 07:05:38 UTC+2 schreef Tom het volgende:

1D-1H
2S-2nt
3nt-4nt
6nt-p

Steven

[axm...@hotmail.com]

In most bidding methods, for this sequence 2N suggests that responder
is minimum for his initial response. Therefore from opener's
perspective, it is incongruous that he is able to divine what extras
pard is holding for 4N, particularly when opener is excessively on the
minimum side himself. It would seem that this is an unrealistic
sequence for these cards.

regards
axman

[france...@googlemail.com]

" In most bidding methods, for this sequence 2N suggests that responder is minimum for his initial response. Therefore from opener's perspective, it is incongruous that he is able to divine what extras pard is holding for 4N, particularly when opener is excessively on the minimum side himself. It would seem that this is an unrealistic sequence for these cards. regards axman"

You are welcome, like everyone else, to post your opinions about how to bid a hand, or say how you play a sequence, but something doesn't become any more true just because you preface it by saying "in most bidding methods".

I am not aware of any common/standard bidding method in which 2NT shows a minimum. 2S is game forcing, so 2NT says nothing about strength. After a reverse, which is not game forcing, some people play 2NT as lebensohl, showing a weak hand, but that is a completely different auction.

[france...@googlemail.com]

1D - 1H - 1S - 3NT - 6NT--Will in New Haven

Not such a bad auction for an unpractised partnership who haven't discussed fourth suit forcing type auctions, but responder's jump to 3NT is a bit agricultural. As it could be based simply on a 3=4=2=4 13-count, how is opener supposed to know whether to bid on looking at, say,

AKxx
Qx
KJ10xxx
x

(when 5D or 4H are much better contracts)

[france...@googlemail.com]

" I didn't say 2NT doesn't mean NT; it does. I specifically suggested Q9x as a lower bound, and by a lucky chance that holding jibes perfectly with the hope of your example 10x in clubs above. But having bid 2NT with Q9x -- felicitously if partner has your example -- you will I hope feel less sanguine about reiterating the NT pledge if partner makes a bid -- 3D or especially 3 of either major -- that strongly suggests short clubs. Indeed the bidding conversation I'm describing player A: "I suggest a NT contract (2NT)" player B: "Do you feel strongly? I have doubt (3 of a suit)" player A: "No, if you aren't warm on the idea, with my minimal stopper we better not (4D)" is so routine I'm surprised at your suggestion that it doesn't exist. "

For me, that discussion doesn't exist on this auction. But I wouldn't bid 2NT with Q9x. I have 2NT (step 1) and 3C (step 2) both available as artificial bids. As I mentioned before, I still play 4th suit forcing here, so if I bid 2NT I mean it. If I wanted to show doubt about 3NT, I'd bid 3C (4th suit), or 3D if appropriate, then 3NT next round. This seems the natural way round to me: other than in some systemic positions, the earlier I bid a strain, the keener I am to play in it.

"Doesn't exist" is too strong, but I can't think of many auctions where I would first suggest NT as a contract, and then change my mind at the 4-level due to weakness. Here's another auction: 1C (1S) dbl (P) 2S (P) ? with only a dodgy spade stop, I'd bid, say, 3C now then bid 3NT next to express doubt. That way I've shown uncertainty below, rather than above, the level of 3NT.

If I bid 1C (1S) dbl (2S) P 2NT P 3C P 4C (say) it would be because I had a great hand for clubs in context, not because I was frightened about my spade stop.

" Is it perhaps that you imagine that my 3D vote somehow relates to insufficiently strong clubs for 2NT? I can't imagine how I might have given such an impression; hope I did not. The clubs are fine for 2NT; I just think there's a better bid."

You said "with clubs any weaker than KJ10" that you wouldn't like to bid 2NT then 3NT.

[Will in New Haven]

After 2C - 2D (I presume) 2NT, opener _is_ better off with either
hand. However, the auction I gave seems equally likely to be found at
the table, since responder is looking at quite adequate Clubs and only
five Hearts in a balanced hand.

[Charles Brenner]

On Apr 23, 8:50 am, franceshin...@googlemail.com wrote:
> " I didn't say 2NT doesn't mean NT; it does. I specifically suggested Q9x as a lower bound, and by a lucky chance that holding jibes perfectly with the hope of your example 10x in clubs above. But having bid 2NT with Q9x -- felicitously if partner has your example -- you will I hope feel less sanguine about reiterating the NT pledge if partner makes a bid -- 3D or especially 3 of either major -- that strongly suggests short clubs. Indeed the bidding conversation I'm describing player A: "I suggest a NT contract (2NT)" player B: "Do you feel strongly? I have doubt (3 of a suit)" player A: "No, if you aren't warm on the idea, with my minimal stopper we better not (4D)" is so routine I'm surprised at your suggestion that it doesn't exist. "
>
> For me, that discussion doesn't exist on this auction. But I wouldn't bid 2NT with Q9x. I have 2NT (step 1) and 3C (step 2) both available as artificial bids.  As I mentioned before, I still play 4th suit forcing here, so if I bid 2NT I mean it.  If I wanted to show doubt about 3NT, I'd bid 3C (4th suit), or 3D if appropriate, then 3NT next round.

I can see where having discussed such things would be advantageous,
and would permit you to not worry about things that I worry about.

> " Is it perhaps that you imagine that my 3D vote somehow relates to insufficiently strong clubs for 2NT? I can't imagine how I might have given such an impression; hope I did not. The clubs are fine for 2NT; I just think there's a better bid."
>
> You said "with clubs any weaker than KJ10" that you wouldn't like to bid 2NT then 3NT.

I'm still not sure why we had a misunderstanding, but just in case it
clarifies I'll repeat what I was trying to convey in a different way,
from the perspective of the opener. I meant that after
1D 1H
2S 2NT
3D 4D
opener might imagine that I've bid 4D because my club stopper is so
much weaker than KJ10.