On Monday, 2 April 2012 09:36:04 UTC+1, Frances wrote:
> On Mar 31, 5:18 am, Eric Leong <ewleong...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Memphis National Mixed Pairs Finals
> > Dealer West
> > Both Vulnerable
> > As North, you hold S 2 H K987 D 10864 C AQ104.
> > The bidding proceeds:
> > West North East South
> > 1NT(1) Pass 2D(2) Pass
> > 2H Pass 2S Pass
> > 3S Pass 4S Pass
> > Pass Pass
> > (1) Weak Notrump 12-14
> > (2) Forcing to game Stayman
> > Opening lead: C 4
> > Dummy
> > S 1086
> > H AJ43
> > D AJ5
> > C K73
> > You
> > S 2
> > H K987
> > D 10864
> > C AQ106
> > Declarer
> Playing standard leads and signals, how do you defend?
Declarer's spade plays can only come from AKxxx or AKJxxx, and the
former is counter-indicated by partner's echo (why falsecard when
partner -- me -- is the only one who can be fooled?).
Assuming 6 spades with declarer, if declarer has 3 clubs then we'll
have to problems after a club return. Someone will win it, partner
will gain the lead in trumps, and partner can work out that a heart
play is safe. If declarer instead has 2 clubs, the club exit is still
safe: declarer ruffs and if partner gains the lead in trumps he can
exit with his 4th club. That will force a discard from the dummy which
is critical for our case if declarer has AKJxxx, 10x, Q9x, xx (i.e.
eradicates the danger of endplaying me in hearts.).
So the answer to "How do you defend?" is that in truth I wouldn't
waste effort on this one and would just return the obvious club, which
seems always safe and also is the only safe exit in some reasonable
seeming deals where declarer has red-suit intermediates. I look
forward to learning why it is wrong.
> > Playing standard leads and signals, how do you defend?
> Declarer's spade plays can only come from AKxxx or AKJxxx, and the
> former is counter-indicated by partner's echo (why falsecard when
> partner -- me -- is the only one who can be fooled?).
> Assuming 6 spades with declarer, if declarer has 3 clubs then we'll
> have to problems after a club return. Someone will win it, partner
> will gain the lead in trumps, and partner can work out that a heart
> play is safe. If declarer instead has 2 clubs, the club exit is still
> safe: declarer ruffs and if partner gains the lead in trumps he can
> exit with his 4th club. That will force a discard from the dummy which
> is critical for our case if declarer has AKJxxx, 10x, Q9x, xx (i.e.
> eradicates the danger of endplaying me in hearts.).
> So the answer to "How do you defend?" is that in truth I wouldn't
> waste effort on this one and would just return the obvious club, which
> seems always safe and also is the only safe exit in some reasonable
> seeming deals where declarer has red-suit intermediates. I look
> forward to learning why it is wrong.
> Charles
Declarer showed a five card spade suit. What do you mean by the
"obvious club"?
> > > Playing standard leads and signals, how do you defend?
> > Declarer's spade plays can only come from AKxxx or AKJxxx, and the
> > former is counter-indicated by partner's echo (why falsecard when
> > partner -- me -- is the only one who can be fooled?).
> > Assuming 6 spades with declarer, if declarer has 3 clubs then we'll
> > have to problems after a club return. Someone will win it, partner
> > will gain the lead in trumps, and partner can work out that a heart
> > play is safe. If declarer instead has 2 clubs, the club exit is still
> > safe: declarer ruffs and if partner gains the lead in trumps he can
> > exit with his 4th club. That will force a discard from the dummy which
> > is critical for our case if declarer has AKJxxx, 10x, Q9x, xx (i.e.
> > eradicates the danger of endplaying me in hearts.).
> > So the answer to "How do you defend?" is that in truth I wouldn't
> > waste effort on this one and would just return the obvious club, which
> > seems always safe and also is the only safe exit in some reasonable
> > seeming deals where declarer has red-suit intermediates. I look
> > forward to learning why it is wrong.
> > Charles
> Declarer showed a five card spade suit.
I didn't assume that you meant exactly five, especially in view of
partner's plays and that from my experience that seems an unusual
treatment. However, if NS assure us that exactly five is their system
then maybe West will rely on his partner relying on that and
consequently signal in some different way. I don't think I could bring
myself as East (or as West) to rely on it though!
> What do you mean by the "obvious club"?
I simply meant that it's obvious to play the club suit; I didn't mean
either club in particular. Since it's posed as a problem I did
consider the signalling aspect of one club or the other, but concluded
there's no point because (a) partner doesn't know I have 4 clubs
anyway so won't be able to read a signal, and (b) partner won't need a
signal anyway. Admittedly that's predicated on the 6-spade idea.
There's no harm in choosing the club 10 but I don't see how it can
help. Come to think of it while I'm grasping at straws to find a
reason however improbable to support a choice, maybe partner cleverly
led low from a doubleton in which case the 10 would be a losing play,
subverting partner's brilliance.
If declarer has only 5 spades then I guess he's already down in the
black suits and if anything matters we have a heart coming as well for
down 2. I don't see any hand where a red shift from me is helpful, but
even if you show me one I don't think I would ever at the table risk
letting a 6-spade declarer make the contract just for a notional
chance of the 3rd downtrick against a 5-spade declarer.
> > > > Playing standard leads and signals, how do you defend?
> > > Declarer's spade plays can only come from AKxxx or AKJxxx, and the
> > > former is counter-indicated by partner's echo (why falsecard when
> > > partner -- me -- is the only one who can be fooled?).
> > > Assuming 6 spades with declarer, if declarer has 3 clubs then we'll
> > > have to problems after a club return. Someone will win it, partner
> > > will gain the lead in trumps, and partner can work out that a heart
> > > play is safe. If declarer instead has 2 clubs, the club exit is still
> > > safe: declarer ruffs and if partner gains the lead in trumps he can
> > > exit with his 4th club. That will force a discard from the dummy which
> > > is critical for our case if declarer has AKJxxx, 10x, Q9x, xx (i.e.
> > > eradicates the danger of endplaying me in hearts.).
> > > So the answer to "How do you defend?" is that in truth I wouldn't
> > > waste effort on this one and would just return the obvious club, which
> > > seems always safe and also is the only safe exit in some reasonable
> > > seeming deals where declarer has red-suit intermediates. I look
> > > forward to learning why it is wrong.
> > > Charles
> > Declarer showed a five card spade suit.
> I didn't assume that you meant exactly five, especially in view of
> partner's plays and that from my experience that seems an unusual
> treatment. However, if NS assure us that exactly five is their system
> then maybe West will rely on his partner relying on that and
> consequently signal in some different way. I don't think I could bring
> myself as East (or as West) to rely on it though!
> > What do you mean by the "obvious club"?
> I simply meant that it's obvious to play the club suit; I didn't mean
> either club in particular. Since it's posed as a problem I did
> consider the signalling aspect of one club or the other, but concluded
> there's no point because (a) partner doesn't know I have 4 clubs
> anyway so won't be able to read a signal, and (b) partner won't need a
> signal anyway. Admittedly that's predicated on the 6-spade idea.
> There's no harm in choosing the club 10 but I don't see how it can
> help. Come to think of it while I'm grasping at straws to find a
> reason however improbable to support a choice, maybe partner cleverly
> led low from a doubleton in which case the 10 would be a losing play,
> subverting partner's brilliance.
> If declarer has only 5 spades then I guess he's already down in the
> black suits and if anything matters we have a heart coming as well for
> down 2. I don't see any hand where a red shift from me is helpful, but
> even if you show me one I don't think I would ever at the table risk
> letting a 6-spade declarer make the contract just for a notional
> chance of the 3rd downtrick against a 5-spade declarer.
> But show -- what have you got?
> Charles
I accept your comment on partner's brilliance.
Okay, the hands were:
Dummy
S 1086
H AJ43
D AJ5
C K73
Me You
S J543 S 2
H Q652 H K987
D K93 D 10864
C 64 C AQ105
Declarer
S AKQ97
H 10
D Q72
C J982
Returning the club 10 give you an average board of 45 out of 90.
Returning the club 5 will certainly cause declarer to misguess and
give you two down for close to a top..
Declarer was Buddy Hanby a sometime poster to r.g.b in the past.
The point of the deal is you have a free shot at playing for partner
doing something deceptive. When he gets in he is clearly not going to
return a diamond given your low diamond discard.
My partner got this wrong and a number of players I polled returned
the club ten. Later, I was reading the Daily Bulletin and I saw Barry
Rigal's article where a defenders on two different occasions led a low
club from C 63 and got declarer to misguess. So I thought, surely this
a trivial problem worthy of Barry. Unfortunately, Barry also returned
the club ten, Argh!
> > > > > Playing standard leads and signals, how do you defend?
> > > > Declarer's spade plays can only come from AKxxx or AKJxxx, and the
> > > > former is counter-indicated by partner's echo (why falsecard when
> > > > partner -- me -- is the only one who can be fooled?).
> > > > Assuming 6 spades with declarer, if declarer has 3 clubs then we'll
> > > > have to problems after a club return. Someone will win it, partner
> > > > will gain the lead in trumps, and partner can work out that a heart
> > > > play is safe. If declarer instead has 2 clubs, the club exit is still
> > > > safe: declarer ruffs and if partner gains the lead in trumps he can
> > > > exit with his 4th club. That will force a discard from the dummy which
> > > > is critical for our case if declarer has AKJxxx, 10x, Q9x, xx (i.e.
> > > > eradicates the danger of endplaying me in hearts.).
> > > > So the answer to "How do you defend?" is that in truth I wouldn't
> > > > waste effort on this one and would just return the obvious club, which
> > > > seems always safe and also is the only safe exit in some reasonable
> > > > seeming deals where declarer has red-suit intermediates. I look
> > > > forward to learning why it is wrong.
> > > > Charles
> > > Declarer showed a five card spade suit.
> > I didn't assume that you meant exactly five, especially in view of
> > partner's plays and that from my experience that seems an unusual
> > treatment. However, if NS assure us that exactly five is their system
> > then maybe West will rely on his partner relying on that and
> > consequently signal in some different way. I don't think I could bring
> > myself as East (or as West) to rely on it though!
> > > What do you mean by the "obvious club"?
> > I simply meant that it's obvious to play the club suit; I didn't mean
> > either club in particular. Since it's posed as a problem I did
> > consider the signalling aspect of one club or the other, but concluded
> > there's no point because (a) partner doesn't know I have 4 clubs
> > anyway so won't be able to read a signal, and (b) partner won't need a
> > signal anyway. Admittedly that's predicated on the 6-spade idea.
> > There's no harm in choosing the club 10 but I don't see how it can
> > help. Come to think of it while I'm grasping at straws to find a
> > reason however improbable to support a choice, maybe partner cleverly
> > led low from a doubleton in which case the 10 would be a losing play,
> > subverting partner's brilliance.
> > If declarer has only 5 spades then I guess he's already down in the
> > black suits and if anything matters we have a heart coming as well for
> > down 2. I don't see any hand where a red shift from me is helpful, but
> > even if you show me one I don't think I would ever at the table risk
> > letting a 6-spade declarer make the contract just for a notional
> > chance of the 3rd downtrick against a 5-spade declarer.
> > But show -- what have you got?
> > Charles
> I accept your comment on partner's brilliance.
> Okay, the hands were:
> Dummy
> S 1086
> H AJ43
> D AJ5
> C K73
> Me You
> S J543 S 2
> H Q652 H K987
> D K93 D 10864
> C 64 C AQ105
> Declarer
> S AKQ97
> H 10
> D Q72
> C J982
AKQxx -- I didn't think of that holding but it makes sense.
I don't mind partner's trump plays, but as I commented before it seems
perverse to falsecard partner and not declarer. Why?
> Returning the club 10 give you an average board of 45 out of 90.
> Returning the club 5 will certainly cause declarer to misguess and
> give you two down for close to a top..
> Declarer was Buddy Hanby a sometime poster to r.g.b in the past.
I recall playing a few hands with him on OkBridge years ago. Good
player.
> The point of the deal is you have a free shot at playing for partner
> doing something deceptive. When he gets in he is clearly not going to
> return a diamond given your low diamond discard.
Signal or no the diamond exit looks really risky to West.
> My partner got this wrong and a number of players I polled returned
> the club ten. Later, I was reading the Daily Bulletin and I saw Barry
> Rigal's article where a defenders on two different occasions led a low
> club from C 63 and got declarer to misguess. So I thought, surely this
> a trivial problem worthy of Barry. Unfortunately, Barry also returned
> the club ten, Argh!
I see why you and others led low -- to not encourage a ruff with your
probable natural trump trick. But when partner doesn't read it I'd
just shrug it off. At the table I might have returned the club x more
or less at random as I discussed, but unlikely I'd do it for what is
in fact the winning reason even though I did sort of find it in our
discussion.
On Tuesday, April 3, 2012 12:18:40 PM UTC-7, Eric Leong wrote:
> On Apr 2, 4:11 pm, Charles Brenner <challambren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 2, 2:16 pm, Eric Leong <ewleong...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Apr 2, 1:48 pm, Charles Brenner <challambren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Mar 30, 9:18 pm, Eric Leong <ewleong...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Memphis National Mixed Pairs Finals
> > > > > Dealer West
> > > > > Both Vulnerable
> > > > > As North, you hold S 2 H K987 D 10864 C AQ104.
> > > > > Playing standard leads and signals, how do you defend?
> > > > Declarer's spade plays can only come from AKxxx or AKJxxx, and the
> > > > former is counter-indicated by partner's echo (why falsecard when
> > > > partner -- me -- is the only one who can be fooled?).
> > > > Assuming 6 spades with declarer, if declarer has 3 clubs then we'll
> > > > have to problems after a club return. Someone will win it, partner
> > > > will gain the lead in trumps, and partner can work out that a heart
> > > > play is safe. If declarer instead has 2 clubs, the club exit is still
> > > > safe: declarer ruffs and if partner gains the lead in trumps he can
> > > > exit with his 4th club. That will force a discard from the dummy which
> > > > is critical for our case if declarer has AKJxxx, 10x, Q9x, xx (i.e.
> > > > eradicates the danger of endplaying me in hearts.).
> > > > So the answer to "How do you defend?" is that in truth I wouldn't
> > > > waste effort on this one and would just return the obvious club, which
> > > > seems always safe and also is the only safe exit in some reasonable
> > > > seeming deals where declarer has red-suit intermediates. I look
> > > > forward to learning why it is wrong.
> > > > Charles
> > > Declarer showed a five card spade suit.
> > I didn't assume that you meant exactly five, especially in view of
> > partner's plays and that from my experience that seems an unusual
> > treatment. However, if NS assure us that exactly five is their system
> > then maybe West will rely on his partner relying on that and
> > consequently signal in some different way. I don't think I could bring
> > myself as East (or as West) to rely on it though!
> > > What do you mean by the "obvious club"?
> > I simply meant that it's obvious to play the club suit; I didn't mean
> > either club in particular. Since it's posed as a problem I did
> > consider the signalling aspect of one club or the other, but concluded
> > there's no point because (a) partner doesn't know I have 4 clubs
> > anyway so won't be able to read a signal, and (b) partner won't need a
> > signal anyway. Admittedly that's predicated on the 6-spade idea.
> > There's no harm in choosing the club 10 but I don't see how it can
> > help. Come to think of it while I'm grasping at straws to find a
> > reason however improbable to support a choice, maybe partner cleverly
> > led low from a doubleton in which case the 10 would be a losing play,
> > subverting partner's brilliance.
> > If declarer has only 5 spades then I guess he's already down in the
> > black suits and if anything matters we have a heart coming as well for
> > down 2. I don't see any hand where a red shift from me is helpful, but
> > even if you show me one I don't think I would ever at the table risk
> > letting a 6-spade declarer make the contract just for a notional
> > chance of the 3rd downtrick against a 5-spade declarer.
> > But show -- what have you got?
> > Charles
> I accept your comment on partner's brilliance.
> Okay, the hands were:
> Dummy
> S 1086
> H AJ43
> D AJ5
> C K73
> Me You
> S J543 S 2
> H Q652 H K987
> D K93 D 10864
> C 64 C AQ105
> Declarer
> S AKQ97
> H 10
> D Q72
> C J982
> Returning the club 10 give you an average board of 45 out of 90.
> Returning the club 5 will certainly cause declarer to misguess and
> give you two down for close to a top..
> Declarer was Buddy Hanby a sometime poster to r.g.b in the past.
> The point of the deal is you have a free shot at playing for partner
> doing something deceptive. When he gets in he is clearly not going to
> return a diamond given your low diamond discard.
> My partner got this wrong and a number of players I polled returned
> the club ten. Later, I was reading the Daily Bulletin and I saw Barry
> Rigal's article where a defenders on two different occasions led a low
> club from C 63 and got declarer to misguess. So I thought, surely this
> a trivial problem worthy of Barry. Unfortunately, Barry also returned
> the club ten, Argh!
> Eric Leong
I don't understand why anyone would
return the CT, and not the C5.
If partner has four clubs and declarer
has six red cards, the HK can't disappear.
Declarer will ruff. Why signal?
> > My partner got this wrong and a number of players I polled returned
> > the club ten. Later, I was reading the Daily Bulletin and I saw Barry
> > Rigal's article where a defenders on two different occasions led a low
> > club from C 63 and got declarer to misguess. So I thought, surely this
> > a trivial problem worthy of Barry. Unfortunately, Barry also returned
> > the club ten, Argh!
My article referred to leading low from 63 doubleton. I certainly
never suggested leading low from 64 doubleton.
That would be ridiculous.
