double nomenclature
Eddie Grove
This stuff where people are arguing about what is a penalty double makes me
long for something better. I suggest, typically,
business = pass with stiff, pull with void
optional = pass with doubleton, pull with stiff
action = pass with tripleton, pull with doubleton
takeout = pass with four
Perhaps once you get past the stiff, holdings should be expected to include
honors, so removing a takeout double with four small would not be unusual.
That could be codified if it helps. I'm not saying the above is best, but I
think it could be a starting point.
Is there any hope for a naming scheme in this vein?
Eddie
rhm
What does change with your nomenclature except that you simplify the
question when to pass partner's double to the number of trumps held,
which looks to me like a big oversimplification?
Rainer Herrmann
jogs
There's no simple guideline for pulling or passing
action doubles. An action double is just a hand
better than a pass. Normally you do not wish to
defend against opponents on the two or lower
level when they hold eight trumps.
At higher levels, you often pass not because you
want to, but because there's no safe place to run.
When partner makes a takeout double, don't pass
just because you have four. You need a reason to
pass. You must think the contract is breakable
and there's no better place to play.
Raija D
"Eddie Grove" <eddie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:87k4y1l...@linux.site...
I think you are looking for structure on BOTH naming the doubles AND on what
agreements to have with partner when responding to various doubles.
The naming is already in place in Definitions (in ACBL)
http://www.acbl.org/play/alert.html
Double (in increasing order of penalty orientation)
* Takeout: Partner is requested to bid.
* Competitive: Shows a desire to compete further; partner usually bids.
* Optional: Shows extra high-card values; offers partner a choice
between bidding or passing.
* Penalty-oriented: Partner normally passes but occasionally bids.
* Penalty: Partner is requested to pass.
This list might not be to everyone's liking, but I think it is a better
start than the OP list and has the benefit of already existing and being
used for at least some purposes.
As to responding to doubles, there is much more involved than the length of
the opponent's (or opponents') suit so that part of your questions are not
easily answered in two-three words.
Raija
Eddie Grove
The question is how to differentiate different flavors of doubles.
Takeout or penalty often mean different things to different people.
For example, Will keeps talking about making more penalty doubles.
I think I would call many of them optional, but I can't really know
what he means if his vocabulary is limited to takeout vs penalty.
1S-(4D)-X
Lots of people call it negative or takeout, but how strongly takeout?
I read some good author say it doesn't matter whether you play takeout or
penalty, opener will pass with the same hands. To me, that meant that
neither takeout nor penalty were adequate descriptions.
There are too many different things that people call "penalty" doubles, and
one never knows exactly what is meant. There is presumably something better,
but I can only offer the best I can think of.
Eddie
Rob Morris
> This stuff where people are arguing about what is a penalty double makes me
> long for something better. I suggest, typically,
>
> business = pass with stiff, pull with void
> optional = pass with doubleton, pull with stiff
> action = pass with tripleton, pull with doubleton
> takeout = pass with four
Are you going to invent a new name for, say, (1H) - X (pass with six)?
What about (1NT) - X (pass with some defence)?
> Is there any hope for a naming scheme in this vein?
No.
I think that what you're saying is somewhat valid - the meaning of a
double can often be clarified by the circumstances in which partner is
expected to pass or bid. But I think the ACBL definition that Raija
posted expresses it better.
--
Rob Morris
arr emm four four five (at) cam dot ac dot uk
Michael Angelo Ravera
Have a look at the EBU Orange book and the WBF guide to completion for
a good nomenclature. They even mostly agree with each other!
<WBF EXCERPTS FOLLOW>
PENALTY DOUBLE (PEN)
A double made with the expectation that partner will pass.
TAKEOUT DOUBLE (T/O)
A double of a suit opening bid, or a double of a response to it when
partner has passed, or any other agreed-upon double, made in the
expectation that partner will remove.
TWO-WAY DOUBLE (2-WAY)
A double that is either for takeout or penalty; nothing in-between.
Partner
of the doubler is supposed to look at his hand to determine the
doubler's intentions.
In reality, this sort of double is most often treated as takeout
unless
the doubler believes that his partner will be able to read the
position easily.
OPTIONAL DOUBLE (OPT)
A cooperative double, showing a balanced hand with enough high cards
to defeat the contract in all probability, and with some tolerance for
any unbid suit. Partner of the doubler is not expected to remove from
fear unless he holds an unusually long suit.
NEGATIVE DOUBLE (NEG)
A double by third hand after interference is for takeout.
COMPETITIVE DOUBLE (COMP)
A double in a competitive auction that conveys the message, "I am
unwilling to pass, but have no satisfactory descriptive bid." The
typical COMP DBL contains useful values for both offensive/defensive
purposes.
RESPONSIVE DOUBLE (RESP)
When the opponents have bid and raised, naturally or artificially: a
double by advancer after aggressor's takeout double or overcall. This
DBL is primarily for T/O, but will generally be strong enough to
accommodate a penalty pass should partner hold an awkward balanced
hand.
RESPONSIVE DOUBLE EXTENDED (RESP-EXT)
When the opponents have bid and raised, naturally or artificially: A
double by opener after responder's NEGATIVE DBL,
MAXIMAL OVERCALL DOUBLE (MAX)
A type of competitive double used by either side when both sides have
found a fit and there is no room for any other game try. The double
shows a hand at least strong enough to invite game.
MAXIMAL OVERCALL DOUBLE EXTENDED (MAX-EXT)
A similar sort of double when only your side has established a fit, or
when there is no room for another trial bid.
SUPPORT DOUBLE (SUPP)
A double by opener in competition to show three-card support for the
suit bid (or implied) by responder.
CUE-BID DOUBLE FOR TAKEOUT(CUE-T/O)
A double by opener of a cue-bid response to an overcall. This double
is not meant to show a strong suit; rather it is a takeout double of
the overcall suit.
USEFUL VALUES DBL (VALUES) --- this is the designation to use on the
Card. (Also known as TRANSFERABLE VALUES; CONVERTIBLE VALUES; CARD-
SHOWING DBL)
A double that shows enough overall strength to expect to defeat the
contract, but with very few (if any) wasted values in the opponents'
suit. Typical holdings: Axx; Jxx; xxx
This double is most often used in high-level competitive situations
where a pass by the doubler would not be forcing,
LEAD-DIRECTING DOUBLE (L/D)
A double of a potential final contract that requests or forbids a
particular opening lead.
ANTI LEAD-DIRECTING DOUBLE
A double of an opponent's bid in a suit mentioned in a natural sense
by your side, at a stage in which it is clear that you would no longer
wish to contest the auction. This sort of double sends the message: "I
would be happier if you led some other suit; my holding in the suit I
am doubling is unusually weak."
SPLINTER DOUBLE
A double of an opponent's splinter bid that is unrelated to the short
suit.
By agreement, this double might show values in either the higher or
lower of the two remaining suits, or it might send the message: "Do
not make your normal lead, i.e. in dummy's "fragment" suit.
<END EXCERPT WBF>
<EBU>
4 H Doubles
4 H 1 General
Doubles have a very wide variety of possible meanings. It is therefore
particularly important that terminology is used consistently.
The meaning of a double should be on the convention card, a post facto
account of it being insufficient. The convention card should also be
clear as to the circumstances in which the double is used with the
meaning described.
4 H 2 Penalty doubles
A penalty double suggests that the doubler believes, on the basis of
his hand and the auction to date, that his side’s best result on the
board will be obtained by defending the doubled contract. Partner is
expected to leave it in, though he can take out on a hand very
unsuitable for defence in the context of what he can be expected to
hold for his actions (if any) to date.
The practice of doubling an opening 1NT for penalties (especially in
the direct seat) on balanced hands which have fewer than 15 HCP must
be shown on the convention card.
4 H 3 Co-operative doubles
A co-operative double suggests that the doubler believes, on the basis
of his hand and the auction to date, that his side’s best result on
the board may well be obtained by defending the doubled contract.
Partner is expected to leave it in with any suitable hand.
In some situations co-operative doubles may be called ‘penalty-
oriented’.
4 H 4 Optional doubles
An optional double suggests that the doubler believes, on the basis of
his hand and the auction to date, that his side will obtain a plus
score by defending the doubled contract, whilst leaving open the
possibility of obtaining a better plus score by declaring some
contract of its own. Partner is expected to decide to defend or
progress.
In some situations optional doubles may be called ‘card-showing’ (or
just ‘cards’), ‘value-showing’ (or just ‘values’).
Take-out doubles (especially as a defence to pre-empts) MUST NOT be
called Optional. In the context of a defence to pre-empts, ‘Optional’
indicates a strong balanced hand.
4 H 5 Competitive doubles
A competitive double suggests that the doubler wishes to compete
further, without being certain of the best place to play, which may
include defending the doubled contract. Partner is usually expected to
take out, though he can pass on a hand more suitable for defence than
his actions to date might indicate.
In some situations competitive doubles may be called ‘action’.
4 H 6 Take-out doubles
A take-out double suggests that the doubler wishes to compete, and
invites partner to describe his hand. Take-out doubles are frequently
based on shortage in the suit doubled and preparedness to play in the
other unbid suits, failing which significant extra values may be
expected. Partner is expected to take out, though he can pass on a
hand very suitable for defence in the context of what he can be
expected to hold for his actions (if any) to date.
Take-out doubles are sometimes described as ‘take-out of’ a particular
suit, especially where the opponents have bid more than one suit, or
made a bid which shows one of two or more suits. This implies shortage
in the suit referred to and may include length in the other suits
shown or potentially shown by the opponents.
In some situations take-out doubles may be called ‘negative’,
‘responsive’ or ‘sputnik’. Note that whilst there is a tendency in
some quarters for a distinction to be drawn between the hands shown by
a double described as ‘negative’ and one described as ‘sputnik’ where
partner’s opening bid has been overcalled, it is not one which is
universally accepted. If players have agreed particular constraints
for take-out doubles in particular situations, these should of course
be disclosed.
4 H 7 Protective or re-opening doubles
When the doubler is in the pass-out seat, a competitive or take-out
double may be made with a fairly significant expectation that partner
may pass, because partner did not have a penalty double available at
his last turn. It is acceptable to refer to doubles of this kind as
protective or re-opening doubles.
4 H 8 Lead-directing doubles
A lead-directing double suggests a holding in a particular suit (which
may be specified or merely implied, and, if specified, may or may not
be the suit doubled) which strongly suggests that partner should lead
that suit. Partner is expected to pass and lead the suit requested.
In some situations lead-directing doubles may be called ‘Lightner’.
4 H 9 Doubles that show specific hands or specific features
A wide variety of hands or features of hands may by agreement be shown
by a double. Examples include doubles showing support for partner and
doubles of intervention over Blackwood or similar bids. Partner is
expected to take appropriate action based on the information conveyed
by the double, which may include passing on a suitable hand.
In some situations such doubles may be called ‘game try’, ‘support’,
or names of specific conventions such as ‘DOPI’ or ‘DEPO’.
4 H 10 Doubles of artificial bids
Doubles of artificial bids to show the suit are similar to penalty
doubles in that they show a good holding in the suit doubled. However,
as there is usually little expectation that the opposition intend to
play in that suit, partner’s expected action after the opposition
remove the double is more akin to that after a competitive or lead-
directing double, according to agreement.
4 H 11 Other doubles
Players should be careful to describe accurately any doubles which do
not fit into the terminology set out in this section, such as doubles
with a two-way meaning.
If an artificial double (such as a double of a cue bid or a splinter)
has an unusual meaning, such as being lead-directing but not related
to the suit doubled, or suggesting NOT leading the suit doubled, this
must be shown prominently on the convention card. It is alertable at
all levels of the auction – see 5 E 4.
<END EBU>
Fred.
While it is wonderful to make understandings as simple as possible,
you are trying to make them simpler. For instance, a business double
is one which partner pulls only with clear reason, but clear reason
varies a great deal with the level of bidding and other
circumstances. You don't want to pull a business double, even with a
void at the 2-level, unless you have a place to play. Without a chance
of going plus, you just hope partner has extra for the double. At
higher levels it might not only be reasonable to sit a business double
with a void in the adverse suit, it can be reasonable to make a
business double of a void suit when the bidding indicates the contract
isn't likely to hold up under bad breaks.
Fred.
David Stevenson
I do not see the need for changing the existing naming scheme.
Especially, using action as something different form currently seems an
unnecessary complication.
Of course, whenever someone comes up with a new idea, we have a new
name. See, for example, Halmic, "invented" about 20 years after
Aardvark, and identical.
--
David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways
Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 ICQ: 20039682
<webj...@googlemail.com> bluejak on OKB
Bridgepage: http://blakjak.org/brg_menu.htm
KWSchneider
What about a double that specifically shows a bid? For instance, card
showing doubles of various flavors: 1N (P) 2C (X) showing clubs or 1N
(X) [showing an undisclosed suit] or 1C [strong] X [showing majors].
You could go on forever about doubles and their nomenclature.
Cheers,
Kurt
Andrew
I appreciate the attempt to create an ontology for forms of doubles.
In my view, the hierarchy looks like this:
Penalty
--optional penalty (double based on general high cards rather than
strength in the opponents's suit)
Takeout
--Negative
--Support
--Responsive
--direct takeout
--Action
--card-showing
--Snapdragon
--balancing takeout
*Any* double that is not an attempt to penalize is a form of takeout
double.
* A penalty double promises a minimum amount of defense and may or
may not promise a minimum amount of offense.
* A takeout double promises a minimum amount of offense and may or
may not promise a minimum amount of defense.
Different flavors of takeout double vary based on:
--the auctions in which they occur
--the lengths shown or implied in specific suits
--the amount of defense implied
In general, the higher the level, the more defense implied by any
"takeout" double.
Andrew
Andrew
Phil
rather "numberclature". I hate the terms "responsive", "cooperative",
"optional", "competitive" because these are English vocabulary words
but don't really mean anything in bridge.
A double shows both a certain level of offense and a certain level of
defense. Offense can be described in terms of "useful HCP" if your
side plays the contract. By "useful" I mean that a stray Queen in the
opponents' suit may be worth 0 points. Defense is a function of
number of trumps you've got in the enemy's suit and the number of side
aces and kings. You could express Defense as a letter, like A = none,
thru D = enough to set them right now if the double is left in.
Then, every double at the table shows some range. For example, 2S (X)
shows 13A through 20C. But 1C (4H) X shows 10A through 18D. I'm just
making up the numbers.
Getting rid of the awful English vocabulary and creating a "point
scale" for all doubles would go a long way in helping people learn
what all their doubles show and mean.