What is now correct? Bidding Boxes, Stop...
Gus Schlueter
use of the Stop Card when using bidding boxes???
We use bidding boxes now at all tables at our local club games. The
procedure differs even amoung the top players. I am a Director and no
longer know what is right or wrong or acceptable anymore....????
Some merely flash the card and place their call, some put the Stop card
on the table and leave it there, some put it on the table bid and pick
it up immediately, and some put the stop card on the table and leave it
there when they thing the amount of time for the hesitation has
past.... There have been several debate and shooting matches between
players at the club over this issue.... Is there anyone out there that
REALLY knows the answer....????
Thanks....
Gus S.
Herman De Wael
>
> What is now the correct procedure of the use and hesitation after the
> use of the Stop Card when using bidding boxes???
>
> REALLY knows the answer....????
>
> Thanks....
Since the Stop procedure is used to warn opponent that they should
*think* for 10 seconds, it is the jump bidder who should count to 10 and
take away his stop card after that time, releasing LHO to bid.
So the correct procedure is :
STOP card
jump bid
10 second pause
take away the stop card
bid from LHO
--
Herman DE WAEL E-Mail Herm...@innet.be
ITD
Belgium
http://www.club.innet.be/~pub02163/bridge/hermbrid.htm
Richard Lighton
> Gus Schlueter wrote:
> >
> > What is now the correct procedure of the use and hesitation after the
> > use of the Stop Card when using bidding boxes???
> >
> > players at the club over this issue.... Is there anyone out there that
> > REALLY knows the answer....????
> >
> > Thanks....
>
> Since the Stop procedure is used to warn opponent that they should
> *think* for 10 seconds, it is the jump bidder who should count to 10 and
> take away his stop card after that time, releasing LHO to bid.
>
> So the correct procedure is :
> STOP card
> jump bid
> 10 second pause
> take away the stop card
> bid from LHO
THE ABOVE IS **NOT** THE ACBL PROCEDURE!!
From the ACBL www page (which now includes lots of files of
ACBL regulations - thank you ACBL/Burghards)
" Skip Bid Warnings
"
"
" _________________________________________________________________
"
"
"
" 1. How and When Made
" Players should protect their rights and the opponent's by
" announcing, prior to making any subsequent bid that skips one or
" more levels of bidding:
" + When bidding orally by saying, "I am about to make a skip
" bid. Please wait!"
" + When using bidding boxes, by placing the stop card so that
" LHO sees it (the skip bidder is responsible for gaining LHO's
" attention). The skip bid is made. The stop card is replaced
" in the bidding box.
"
"
" 2. Skip Bidder
" The skip bid warning may not be used to alert partner that a
" strength-showing bid is being made or not being made. The warning
" should be used all the time. The tournament director may assess a
" procedural penalty (Law 90) for failure to comply.
"
" 3. Opponents of Skip Bidder
" + All Players
" When RHO has announced a skip bid, the player following the
" skip bidder must wait for a suitable interval (about 10
" seconds). In waiting the player's manner must be one that
" suggests he is an active participant in the auction (the hand
" should be studied during the pause). Any obvious display of
" disinterest is most improper.
"
"
" 4. Questioning
" After a skip bid, players may ask questions but must still pause
" an appropriate amount of time for study.
"
" 5. Failure to Pause
" When a player acts with undue haste or hesitation, the tournament
" director may award an adjusted score (Law 16) and/or procedural
" penalty (Law 90).
"
" 6. Where Used
" The warning is effective for all ACBL sanctioned events. For
" sanctioned games at clubs, the club may elect to discourage it's
" use and require no mandated pause.
"
Richard Lighton
(lig...@ios.com)
Rowen Bell
>> > So the correct procedure is :
>> > STOP card
>> > jump bid
>> > 10 second pause
>> > take away the stop card
>> > bid from LHO
>
>> THE ABOVE IS **NOT** THE ACBL PROCEDURE!!
>
>
># + When using bidding boxes, by placing the stop card so that
># LHO sees it (the skip bidder is responsible for gaining LHO's
># attention). The skip bid is made. The stop card is replaced
># in the bidding box.
>
>Mark Brader says:
>Note that the web page does NOT say that the stop card must be replaced
>in the bidding box without pause, only that it is replaced after the bid.
>
>The procedure described by Herman is so obviously superior to the version
>where it is replaced immediately that I, for one, intend to continue to
>use it unless and until it is explicitly forbidden. And I would encourage
>the ACBL to make it official policy.
The problem with not replacing the stop card immediately after making the
skip bid, as recently explained to me by a bevy of ACBL directors, is that
one could use the interval taken to replace the stop card as an indication
of how good the preempt is. (Shades of "Weasel"! Immediately replacing the
stop card shows a bad preempt, waiting 10 seconds shows an excellent
preempt....)
If everyone replaces the stop card immediately after making a skip bid,
and if everyone wait 10 seconds after their RHO makes a skip bid, then
we would be in a perfect situation -- neither side would be in a position to
transmit UI. This, I suspect, is the ACBL's thinking behind the new rule.
However, I sympathize with Mark Brader's position; leaving the stop card
on the table for 10 seconds effectively enforces the pause. As long as you
are very consistent in waiting exactly 10 seconds before replacement, you
might not be lambasted by the ACBL. But you are, IMHO, breaking regulation in
doing this.
Cheers,
Rowen Bell
David Stevenson
so may legitimately b different with different sponsoring organisations.
Thus the answer to Gus S's original question depends on where he is in
the world.
> > > What is now the correct procedure of the use and hesitation after the
> > > use of the Stop Card when using bidding boxes???
> > >
> > > players at the club over this issue.... Is there anyone out there that
> > > REALLY knows the answer....????
> > >
> > > Thanks....
There follows the correct procedure in most of Europe:
> >
> > Since the Stop procedure is used to warn opponent that they should
> > *think* for 10 seconds, it is the jump bidder who should count to 10 and
> > take away his stop card after that time, releasing LHO to bid.
> >
> > So the correct procedure is :
> > STOP card
> > jump bid
> > 10 second pause
> > take away the stop card
> > bid from LHO
>
And now the ACBL regulations:
>From the ACBL www page (which now includes lots of files of
>ACBL regulations - thank you ACBL/Burghards)
>
>
>" Skip Bid Warnings
>"
>"
>" _________________________________________________________________
>"
>"
>"
>" 1. How and When Made
>" Players should protect their rights and the opponent's by
>" announcing, prior to making any subsequent bid that skips one or
>" more levels of bidding:
>" + When bidding orally by saying, "I am about to make a skip
>" bid. Please wait!"
>" + When using bidding boxes, by placing the stop card so that
>" LHO sees it (the skip bidder is responsible for gaining LHO's
>" attention). The skip bid is made. The stop card is replaced
I am surprised that clubs do not have to follow these regulations.
The best way for inexperienced players to learn regulations, rules, how
to deal with situations and so on is in their own club. If you normally
bid as soon as you like over a weak 2S opening in your own club you will
be **very** upset when you play in your first ACBL sanctioned event and
the TD is called because you did not pause over 2S.
--
David Stevenson Bridge Cats Railways Logic
Nothing ventured, nothing gained
Tel: +44 (0)151 677 7412 Fax: on request
Stu Goodgold
on Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:26:31 GMT,
Rowen Bell <be...@ford.uchicago.edu> writes:
>The problem with not replacing the stop card immediately after making the
>skip bid, as recently explained to me by a bevy of ACBL directors, is that
>one could use the interval taken to replace the stop card as an indication
>of how good the preempt is. (Shades of "Weasel"! Immediately replacing the
>stop card shows a bad preempt, waiting 10 seconds shows an excellent
>preempt....)
>
>If everyone replaces the stop card immediately after making a skip bid,
>and if everyone wait 10 seconds after their RHO makes a skip bid, then
>we would be in a perfect situation -- neither side would be in a position to
>transmit UI. This, I suspect, is the ACBL's thinking behind the new rule.
>
>However, I sympathize with Mark Brader's position; leaving the stop card
>on the table for 10 seconds effectively enforces the pause. As long as you
>are very consistent in waiting exactly 10 seconds before replacement, you
>might not be lambasted by the ACBL. But you are, IMHO, breaking regulation in
>doing this.
Why do we even need the STOP card, anyway? It seems the ACBL has
decided that your rights are not protected by LHOs quick action
unless you take active measures to see that (s)he follows the law.
I know of no other instances where you lose your rights if you don't
actively insist the opponents obey the law.
Since I have always thought that the STOP card (or verbal SKIP)
was a waste of time in most cases, I have rarely used it in the past.
Lately, I've tried using it, but often forget due to ingrained habits.
Because haphazard use violates procedure, I am trying a new approach:
instead of a STOP card, I put my (skip) bid down with my left hand
over it and uncover it slowly, often straightening the bid stack
in the process. LHO doesn't get a clear picture of the bid
until my hand has cleared the table. RHO can see the bid a few seconds
before LHO, and so has a difficult time judging LHOs wait time.
It might not be 10 seconds, but few LHOs wait that long anyway.
This technique approximates a crude table screen.
FWIW, this is one of the few advantages I've found attributable
to bidding boxes while playing left-handed :-)
Stu Goodgold
Adam Beneschan
>BTW, I put a line "I pause after ALL skip bids, warned or not" on
>the top of my CC. I'm hoping I can use that in my defence after
>someone calls me on my forced hesitation after 1C-(no Stop, 2S)
>(no-one's done it yet; I'm just expecting it sometime). I believe
>that is also breaking regulation in the ACBL, but again, what are we
>to do?
ACBL policy (as of this year, I believe) is that you are required to
pause after a skip bid whether or not the opponents give a skip bid
warning--which is what you're doing anyway (same as what I've done for
a while). So the sentence on top of your CC shouldn't be necessary
any more.
-- Adam
David Stevenson
Kevin Podsiadlik
<da...@blakjak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I am surprised that clubs do not have to follow these regulations.
> The best way for inexperienced players to learn regulations, rules, how
> to deal with situations and so on is in their own club. If you normally
> bid as soon as you like over a weak 2S opening in your own club you will
> be **very** upset when you play in your first ACBL sanctioned event and
> the TD is called because you did not pause over 2S.
Reminds me of my first experience with the skip bid warning at my first
tournament, somewhat funny now that I look back at it. I'd been taught
that there were fifteen words that could legally be used during the auction:
one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, club(s), diamond(s), heart(s),
spade(s), notrump, pass, double, and redouble, and I'd been extremely
careful throughout to avoid breaking that taboo. So when, out of the blue
an opponent pipes up, "Skip bid... Hesitate... Three spades" (that was
verbatim how she said it!) I went temporarily into a state of shock!
Finally, after thinking it through, I decided this was too blantant to
be something the opponent was trying to get away with, and went on to
continue the auction as normal, not realizing that I had complied with
my opponent's (cryptic) request almost perfectly.
--
Kevin J. Podsiadlik
pods...@msu.edu
"Clinton's gonna cut government? He can't even cut his speech!"
-- Bill Maher, "Politically Incorrect"
Michael Farebrother
Rowen Bell <be...@ford.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>Herman De Wael (herm...@innet.be) [note, that's not ACBL territory] wrote:
>>> > STOP card
>>> > jump bid
>>> > 10 second pause
>>> > take away the stop card
>>> > bid from LHO
>>
heard (here - third-hand, take it as you will) of people who complain because
LHO pauses slightly longer than they have "allowed" them to - forcing tempo,
anyone?
>>Richard Lighton (lig...@ios.com) shouted:
>>> THE ABOVE IS **NOT** THE ACBL PROCEDURE!!
>>
>>And quoted the ACBL's web page:
>>
>># + When using bidding boxes, by placing the stop card so that
>># LHO sees it (the skip bidder is responsible for gaining LHO's
>># attention). The skip bid is made. The stop card is replaced
>># in the bidding box.
>>
>>Mark Brader says:
>>Note that the web page does NOT say that the stop card must be replaced
>>in the bidding box without pause, only that it is replaced after the bid.
>>
>>The procedure described by Herman is so obviously superior to the version
>>where it is replaced immediately that I, for one, intend to continue to
>>use it unless and until it is explicitly forbidden. And I would encourage
>>the ACBL to make it official policy.
Never mind the fact that it makes it so much easier to explain to the
TD that the call was fast ("Um, the Stop card is still on the table...").
>
>The problem with not replacing the stop card immediately after making the
>skip bid, as recently explained to me by a bevy of ACBL directors, is that
>one could use the interval taken to replace the stop card as an indication
>of how good the preempt is. (Shades of "Weasel"! Immediately replacing the
>stop card shows a bad preempt, waiting 10 seconds shows an excellent
>preempt....)
>
Nail the b****** is my line. We should be enforcing this (and the waiting
10 seconds bit) with the same prejudice we [seem to be] enforcing long-pause
UI problems. And maybe there's more reason here, as there can be *no
reason* to pause significantly less than 10 seconds (except to pass UI, of
course).
>If everyone replaces the stop card immediately after making a skip bid,
>and if everyone wait 10 seconds after their RHO makes a skip bid, then
>we would be in a perfect situation -- neither side would be in a position to
>transmit UI. This, I suspect, is the ACBL's thinking behind the new rule.
>
Right. Assume that the users of the Stop card are going to be unethical,
and rule around that; then hope the opponents will be ethical (either
in the pause or the agreement of break in tempo). I use the Stop card - I'm
biased. But I think it's more likely to be the other way around (judging
by the number of times I've had to call the director about it - note I
don't assume all of the opponents were unethical; some of them didn't know).
I'm not flaming you, Rowan; I'm sure you're just reporting the Literal
Truth. I just don't understand it.
>However, I sympathize with Mark Brader's position; leaving the stop card
>on the table for 10 seconds effectively enforces the pause. As long as you
>are very consistent in waiting exactly 10 seconds before replacement, you
>might not be lambasted by the ACBL. But you are, IMHO, breaking regulation in
>doing this.
>
Yeah, I know. What are we to do?
BTW, I put a line "I pause after ALL skip bids, warned or not" on the top
of my CC. I'm hoping I can use that in my defence after someone
calls me on my forced hesitation after 1C-(no Stop, 2S) (no-one's done it yet;
I'm just expecting it sometime). I believe that is also breaking regulation
in the ACBL, but again, what are we to do?
Michael.
Mark Brader
> Reminds me of my first experience with the skip bid warning at my first
> tournament, somewhat funny now that I look back at it. I'd been taught
> that there were fifteen words that could legally be used during the auction
> Three spades" (that was verbatim how she said it!) I went temporarily
> into a state of shock!
(Grin)
Now I can't resist mentioning the first time *I* encountered the skip bid
warning. I was very uncomfortable about the idea of playing duplicate
bridge at first, but in 1983 my wife finally persuaded me to try it.
We played in a 0-20 game at the Canadian Nationals / Toronto Regional.
Then as now, we played almost exclusively with each other as partners.
About 3 boards into the game, she was paged -- she had an urgent call from
her office. (She was supposed to be number 3 on the on-call list that
night, but neither of the first two had answered their phones...) The
problem turned out to be a less than simple one, and the caddy captain
was pressed into service as my partner to keep the game moving.
(Aughh! Here I am in a room full of strangers who all know what they're
doing, and I don't even have the support of the one person who's there
that I know.)
I don't remember the actual auction, but within a couple of boards I had
heard my first skip bid warning... from my surprise partner! And the
next player promptly called the director -- "She skip bidded [sic]. Can
she do that in this game?" Aughh!
Of course the answer was yes, and eventually Cathy made it back, and we
had a good time and a respectable result. Made me wonder what I'd been
scared of all that time.
That caddy captain, by the way, was Karen Cooper, who some of you will
certainly have met as a director.
--
Mark Brader, m...@sq.com "As for Canada's lack of mystique,
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto it is not unique." -- Mark Leeper
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Donald Varvel
> BTW, I put a line "I pause after ALL skip bids, warned or not" on the top
> of my CC. I'm hoping I can use that in my defence after someone
> calls me on my forced hesitation after 1C-(no Stop, 2S) (no-one's done it yet;
> I'm just expecting it sometime). I believe that is also breaking regulation
> in the ACBL, but again, what are we to do?
For what it's worth, I don't believe you are breaking regulation in
the ACBL. I think you are doing exactly what you are required to do.
My understanding (and again, I haven't checked the latest copy of the
regulations) is that you are supposed to pause after all skip bids,
warning or no. The warning is sort of optional; you're supposed to
use it for all skip bids or none, and it's supposed to be easier to
get a ruling in your favor if you *do* use it; but the pause is not
optional.
Ten seconds is eternity in a bidding sequence, of course, especially
if you have nothing to think about, but I pause, looking at my cards,
silently counting the seconds up to 6 or 7 every time there's a skip
bid, because I believe it is required. Nobody else does around here,
but I have a lot of experience at being thought crazy.
On a seemingly unrelated subject, several months ago an elderly lady
laughed at me as I mixed up my cards at the end of a hand, and said,
"I've never understood why men always do that." I told her I didn't
know about other men, but *I* did it because everyone is supposed to.
She thought that was the funniest thing she had ever heard of.
--
-- Don Varvel (dva...@alleg.edu, http://ace.alleg.edu/~varvel)
"Excellent. Many mainlanders will suffer. You have done well."
Nick Straguzzi
be...@ford.uchicago.edu (Rowen Bell) wrote:
>>Herman De Wael (herm...@innet.be) [note, that's not ACBL territory] wrote:
>>> > So the correct procedure is :
>>> > STOP card
>>> > jump bid
>>> > 10 second pause
>>> > take away the stop card
>>> > bid from LHO
Whether it's correct or incorrect, it's not the most *frequent* procedure.
What usually happens is:
STOP card
jump bid
LHO ignores STOP card and passes immediately. (Particularly annoying
LHO's don't even wait for the jump bid.)
You keep STOP card on table for 10 seconds anyway, simmering quietly
LHO and RHO both give you a dirty look.
:-)
>>Richard Lighton (lig...@ios.com) shouted:
>>> THE ABOVE IS **NOT** THE ACBL PROCEDURE!!
>>> [...]
>
>The problem with not replacing the stop card immediately after making the
>skip bid, as recently explained to me by a bevy of ACBL directors, is that
>one could use the interval taken to replace the stop card as an indication
>of how good the preempt is. (Shades of "Weasel"! Immediately replacing the
>stop card shows a bad preempt, waiting 10 seconds shows an excellent
>preempt....)
I have a great deal of respect for ACBL directors, but....um...isn't this
concern just a trifle bit silly? There must be *countless* ways that two
scumballs could cheat deliberately using a bidding box -- from what hand they
use to grab the card, to where it's placed on the table, to how neatly they
line up the cards, and so on. I can't imagine that the length of time the
STOP card is left on the table would make the ACBL Top Forty sources of UI,
whether done intentionally or not.
I make it a habit to always pull a "Pass" card out of the box when I'm the
final call in an auction. Both of my regular partners make it a habit *never*
to do it. I'm not sure what's the "correct" procedure, but we all know the
spirit is to be as consistent and ethical as possible.
It's all well and good to have everything codified. I suppose I'm just a
little worried where "codified" leaves off and "anal-retentive" kicks in.
I personally like Richard Lighton's suggestion.
Best,
Nick
|---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Nick Straguzzi |
| Mullica Hill, NJ | "Got no use for the tricks of modern times"
+---------------------+ -- Al Stewart
| nstra...@snip.net |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ray Miller
>Subject: Re: What is now correct? Bidding Boxes, Stop...
>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:49:23 GMT
>BTW, I put a line "I pause after ALL skip bids, warned or not" on the top
>of my CC. I'm hoping I can use that in my defence after someone
>calls me on my forced hesitation after 1C-(no Stop, 2S) (no-one's done it yet;
>I'm just expecting it sometime). I believe that is also breaking regulation
>in the ACBL, but again, what are we to do?
>Michael.
You are obligated to pause for 10 seconds after a skip bid. It doesn't matter
if it is announced or not.
Ray
Adam Wildavsky
lig...@styx.ios.com (Richard Lighton) wrote:
>In article <314AD8...@innet.be>, Herman De Wael <herm...@innet.be> wrote:
> > Gus Schlueter wrote:
> > >
> > > What is now the correct procedure of the use and hesitation after the
> > > use of the Stop Card when using bidding boxes???
> >
> > Since the Stop procedure is used to warn opponent that they should
> > *think* for 10 seconds, it is the jump bidder who should count to 10 and
> > take away his stop card after that time, releasing LHO to bid.
> >
> > So the correct procedure is :
> > STOP card
> > jump bid
> > 10 second pause
> > take away the stop card
> > bid from LHO
>
>THE ABOVE IS **NOT** THE ACBL PROCEDURE!!
>
>From the ACBL www page (which now includes lots of files of
>ACBL regulations - thank you ACBL/Burghards)
>
>
>" Skip Bid Warnings
>"
>" 1. How and When Made
>" Players should protect their rights and the opponent's by
>" announcing, prior to making any subsequent bid that skips one or
>" more levels of bidding:
>" + When bidding orally by saying, "I am about to make a skip
>" bid. Please wait!"
>" + When using bidding boxes, by placing the stop card so that
>" LHO sees it (the skip bidder is responsible for gaining LHO's
>" attention). The skip bid is made. The stop card is replaced
>" in the bidding box.
Yes, this change was made at the Fall '95 NABC in Atlanta. Before and during the Spring '96 NABC in Philadelphia I spoke to my district director and anyone else whose ear I could bend to see whether the board would consider changing this back to the previous policy which was the one Mr. De Wael suggested. To my mind that policy was ideal except for one problem, unfortunately quite typical for the ACBL, that it was not well publicized.
The board did make a change in Philadelphia, though it's not clear to me what it means. In the "Highlights of Board Actions" section of the March 7th daily bulletin we find
" The responsibility for pausing after a skip bid remains
with left-hand opponent. However the STOP card may be left
on the table until the bidder feels it is the appropriate
time for LHO to bid."
I'd like to think that this means that if my LHO takes a call while the stop card is still on the table then there will be no question but that unauthorized information is available. I suppose I'll have to find out at the table, as usual!
I did discover that a committee is meeting to prepare a revision to the Laws to be voted upon during the next world championships. This will include a section on bidding boxes in an appendix, and as at present no NCBO will be required to follow it.
--
Adam Wildavsky <ad...@visalia.com>
Eric Landau
> The board did make a change in Philadelphia, though it's not clear to me what it means. In the "Highlights of Board Actions" section of the March 7th daily bulletin we find
> " The responsibility for pausing after a skip bid remains
> with left-hand opponent. However the STOP card may be left
> on the table until the bidder feels it is the appropriate
> time for LHO to bid."
> I'd like to think that this means that if my LHO takes a call while the stop card is still on the table then there will be no question but that unauthorized information is available. I suppose I'll have to find out at the table, as usual!
I don't think that's the case. When your RHO makes a skip bid, you are
obligated to pause for approximately 10 seconds and to give the
appearance of examinining your hand. The first sentence above reminds us
that this obligation exists, regardless of how RHO has handled his stop
card, if he has given a verbal skip-bid warning, or even if he has taken
no action at all to indicate the skip bid.
The procedure Mr. Wildavsky favors has no legal force; it is, in effect,
a courtesy on the part of the skip-bidder to his LHO to communicate his
"opinion" about when the pause has been sufficient, to avoid later
potential disagreement between the two sides over whether or not LHO took
enough time to satisfy his legal obligation. But it doesn't effect what
LHO is obligated to do. In real life, of course, an LHO who chose to
ignore this courtesy would be asking for trouble, but would not be
committing any infraction provided he did in fact pause for approximately
10 seconds etc.
Prior to Atlanta, the ACBL had sanctioned this procedure as the proper
way to issue a skip bid warning when bidding boxes were in use. This is
analogous to the sanctioning of "Skip bid; please wait" as the "proper"
formula for a verbal announcement. But even then, if you flashed the
stop card, or stacked it, or verbally announced "Skippety-do-dah" instead
of "Skip bid; please wait," or did nothing, LHO's legal obligation was
not affected, and that is still the case.
This was changed in Atlanta. Counting the time for LHO with the stop
card is no longer considered "preferred" to flashing or stacking. Any
procedure is now "proper" as long as you make sure that your LHO has seen
the stop card before you replace it. The announcement in Philadelphia
was meant only to clarify the Atlanta action, and does not modify it.
The second sentence above merely states that even though the old
procedure is no longer the preferred one, you may still use it (a point
on which some people were uncertain).
--
Eric Landau, APL Solutions, Inc. (ela...@cais.com)
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." -- Abbie Hoffman