1NT-3H/3S continuations
Cool Dude
1NT-3H : H singleton, exactly 3 card S, GF, 5-4 in minors, either way
1NT-3S : S singleton, exactly 3 card H, GF, 5-4 in minors, either way
Does anyone know the logical continuations after this 3H or 3S bid by
responder.
Cool Dude
Frances
How many posts will you get suggesting a better sequence of responses?
The 3H/3S bid is initially looking for the best game.
Logical continuations by opener are
1NT - 3H
3S: 4 spades, suggesting playing there, either uncertainty about the
right spot (e.g. 1 heart stop) or interested in slam. Now 4 minor shows
length in the suit likely with poor spades, 4 hearts agrees spades, 4
spades agrees spades with no slam ambitions, 3NT is likely to have a
singleton heart honour.
3NT: confident
4C/4D: natural, agreeing the suit
4H: very good hand in context, most likely 3 or 4 low hearts, strongly
interested in a minor suit slam (you could now play 4S as suitable with
longer clubs, 4NT as suitable with longer diamonds, 5m sign-off).
4S: certain this is the right spot (very good spades).
1NT - 3S
similar, but you have slightly less room.
Gordon Rainsford
I'm sure it's better to play it the other way around - bid the fragment
rather than the singleton.
--
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
Travis Crump
Bridge world standard disagrees. The idea is to right side 4M when you
want to play the moysian fit.
Eric Kehr
Eric Kehr
Adam Beneschan
The advantage of bidding the fragment is that it makes it harder for
the opponents to double and find a good save.
It's one of those tradeoff things. I don't think one way is clearly
superior to the other.
-- Adam
ewleo...@hotmail.com
Not necessarily, opener could have five card support for the fragment
and now playing 4H or 4S from the strong side might be preferable.
Eric Leong
Adam Beneschan
I've had partners suggest playing this convention (or the version where
you bid the fragment) with no discussion about continuations.
Normally, I'd think that since opener is limited and responder has
given a pretty good description of his hand, opener can just place the
contract most of the time. So this is a convention that you can
probably adopt without too much discussion about continuations---the
hands where it might matter probably come up about once every forty
years or so.
-- Adam
Kieran Dyke
"Travis Crump" <pret...@techhouse.org> wrote in message
news:60g2e.329$4a.2...@news1.epix.net...
I think this is wrong. When the expected trump lead comes against your
moysian game, you'd rather the lead came up to honours in the short hand,
rather than through them.
Tiggrr
Gordon Rainsford
... and of course not everyone plays a strong NT - it wasn't specified
in the original post.
Gordon Rainsford
The slight strength disparity (IF you happen to be playing a strong NT)
is less likely to be significant than is giving the opponents a chance
to get into the auction by doubling your shortage bid.
Bill Jacobs
news:1112086974.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
It's a neat convention that handles a difficult shape. There doesn't seem
to be much complexity to the continuations. The initial response should be
game forcing.
For me, 4C or 4D would set that suit, and you could cue-bid and Blackwood
from there on. Bidding partner's fragment would suggest playing the major
suit. 3NT is obvious. 5C and 5D are fast arrival for me, showing a
minimum hand wanting to play in the minor rather than 3NT.
That just leaves the bid of the singleton to discuss. Would suggest
something like 4-4 in the minors, attempting to get to the longer combined
fit.
Cheers ... Bill.
ewleo...@hotmail.com
I don't play this but I would think:
1NT 3S
?
3NT Spades well stopped. I don't want to play in a minor.
4C I have clubs. Bid 4D as RKCB.
4D I have diamonds. Bid 4H as RKCB.
4H bids and higher show something about key cards, aces and minor suit
kings. Opener is say 3-3 in the minors and doesn't know which minor to
pick.
1NT 3H
?
3NT Hearts well stopped. I don't want to play in a minor.
4C I have clubs. Bid 4D as RKCB.
3S I have diamonds. Bid 3NT as RKCB.
4D bids and higher show something about key cards but opener doesn't
know which minor to pick.
Eric Leong
ewleo...@hotmail.com
Certainly, true but "Cool Dude" doesn't sound very English.
Just as if an English man opened 1NT one might think he opened a weak
notrump, one might think if an American opened 1NT one might think he
opened a strong notrump.
Eric Leong
Cool Dude
contributions.
Cool Dude
Adam Beneschan
> Cool Dude wrote:
> > My partner is wanting me to play 1NT - 3H/3S as
> > 1NT-3H : H singleton, exactly 3 card S, GF, 5-4 in minors, either
way
> > 1NT-3S : S singleton, exactly 3 card H, GF, 5-4 in minors, either
way
> >
> > Does anyone know the logical continuations after this 3H or 3S bid
by
> > responder.
> >
> > Cool Dude
>
> I don't play this but I would think:
>
> 1NT 3S
> ?
>
> 3NT Spades well stopped. I don't want to play in a minor.
> 4C I have clubs. Bid 4D as RKCB.
> 4D I have diamonds. Bid 4H as RKCB.
> 4H bids and higher show something about key cards, aces and minor
suit
> kings. Opener is say 3-3 in the minors and doesn't know which minor
to
> pick.
Shouldn't 4H be to play? One of the purposes of the convention (at
least as I learned it) is to allow the partnership to play in a 4-3
major fit instead of 3NT when opener doesn't have a stopper in the suit
where responder has a singleton. (In fact, I've at times wondered
whether Alan Truscott's "anti-lemming" idea can be incorporated into
this, allowing 3S on a 2=3=4=4 hand with a small doubleton spade as
well as with a 1=3=(4-5) hand, thus letting the partnership play in a
suit [perhaps a 4-3 major] when they have xx opposite xx in one of the
majors. OTOH this is probably too many hand types for a bid that takes
up this much bidding space.)
-- Adam
Andrew Gumperz
Cool Dude wrote:
> My partner is wanting me to play 1NT - 3H/3S as
> 1NT-3H : H singleton, exactly 3 card S, GF, 5-4 in minors, either way
> 1NT-3S : S singleton, exactly 3 card H, GF, 5-4 in minors, either way
As I play it, 3M is limited to about 9-12. With serious slam interest,
Responder should start with MSS.
Also, it is acceptable to bid 3M with 3-1-6-3 shapes. Responder is
looking for 3NT or game in the moysian, but will convert 4 of the wrong
minor to the longer minor. This gives you a slightly better chance of
getting to use the convention. The convention works well when it comes
up, but that is not often.
> Does anyone know the logical continuations after this 3H or 3S bid by
> responder.
Frances covered it well.
Adam Beneschan
> "Cool Dude" <kooldood2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:1112086974.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
> > My partner is wanting me to play 1NT - 3H/3S as
> > 1NT-3H : H singleton, exactly 3 card S, GF, 5-4 in minors, either
way
> > 1NT-3S : S singleton, exactly 3 card H, GF, 5-4 in minors, either
way
> >
> > Does anyone know the logical continuations after this 3H or 3S bid
by
> > responder.
> >
> > Cool Dude
> >
>
> It's a neat convention that handles a difficult shape. There doesn't
seem
> to be much complexity to the continuations. The initial response
should be
> game forcing.
Actually, I think that last point is debatable. I'd agree that after
1NT-3H you shouldn't be able to stop in 3S. However, it's debatable
whether you should be able to stop in 4m.
As I mentioned in a different post, one of the purposes of this
convention is to avoid 3NT in cases where responder has a singleton
spade, say, and opener has three small. In some totally different
situations, partnerships play that certain auctions are forcing to "3NT
or 4 of a minor", meaning that the partnership can stop in 4m if they
have (just barely) the values for 3NT but not the stoppers. This may
be one of those situations. Probably even moreso if you adopt Andrew's
limited range for the 3M response.
Of course, finding good minor-suit slams is one possible advantage of
the convention. But I think this should be responder's decision, since
opener's hand is fairly limited. That is, if responder has enough to
look for slam, responder will continue over a 4m rebid; and if
responder has a lesser hand that just wanted to avoid a bad 3NT,
perhaps he ought to be able to pass 4m. IMHO there's no real need for
a NT opener to be able to bid 4m with the confidence that it's forcing.
-- Adam
Robert Park
Steve Robinson has a nice 2-page discussion of his version of this
convention in his book on "Washington Standard," starting on page 308.
As you will see if you read it, there's more here than initially meets
the eye.
--Bob Park
Larry Lowell
singleton (or void)(3S = 4441, club singleton) and either (a) 3-suited:
4441, (b) 54 in the minors with 3 or 4 in the other major, (c) long
minor and slam interest. Opener bids the singleton if he has no wasted
values and then you look for a fit. Other bids deny slam interest
(unless responder has extra values) and look for a fit. With double
stopper in the suit, opener rebids 3NT. This is well thought out, but
occurs infrequently and really good at IMPs.
Larry Lowell
Knoxville, TN, USA
Bill Jacobs
> a NT opener to be able to bid 4m with the confidence that it's forcing.
>
Then what DOES the NT opener do with a strong hand and a fit in one of the
minors?
Cheers ... Bill.
Adam Beneschan
How about 5m?
Keep in mind that "strong hand" in this context means "2 HCP more than
a minimum". That isn't saying much. Yes, I realize that even within
the constraints imposed by a 1NT opener, opener could have a hand whose
playing strength is greatly improved by such a bid, but there really
isn't that much room for this. A hand of this sort really is an
exception, and 5m should describe such a hand well. Or maybe there
should be some conventional way to describe this, such as 4 of
responder's singleton. But I believe that the frequency with which
this would be needed is outweighed by the frequency with which the
partnership has the values for 3NT but is missing a stopper and really
belongs in just 4m.
-- Adam
Bill Jacobs
@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
This is not the way to bid slams. You have just lost Blackwood for a
start.
If the initial response is unlimited in strength, which I assume to be the
case, what you have proposed seems inferior. And just for the purpose of
trying to stop in 4 of a minor - Brother Aeldred's favourite contract.
Cheers ... Bill