Show hearts or prefer Spades?

[pgmer6809]

Playing 2/1 in ACBL land, Matchpoints.

You hold
JT AQxxx xxx xxx

You deal and Pass. The auction goes:
P-(P)-1S(a)-(P);
1NT(b)-(P)-2C(c)-(P);
??

(a) Could be 'light' i.e. 9-10 HCP but promises a 5+ suit.
(b) SemiForcing. 5 HCP to a bad 12HCP. Denies 3+ support for spades.
Opener can pass 1NT
(c) Could be either a 3+ card suit in a hand with 12-18HCP or a 4+ suit in a shapely hand that does not want to play 1NT.

Would you rebid 2H or 2S?
pgmer6809

[Adam Beneschan]

2S. If I rebid 2H, partner won't do the right thing with 5=1=3=4. I could be playing in a 5-2 spade fit instead of a 5-3 heart fit if partner is, say, 5=3=1=4, but at least the 5-2 should be playable.

Would Bart help here? Unfortunately, since I don't play it, I don't remember the details.

-- Adam

[judyo...@gmail.com]

Absent special understanding (as in the 1972 version of KS), a 2H bid here shows 6, not 5. And either too bad a suit or too bad a hand to open 2H.

Carl

[David Goldfarb]

In article <652905bf-2cb6-47c6...@googlegroups.com>,

Bart is used to distinguish among different kinds of invitational-strength
hands. Since this hand is weaker than that, Bart won't help here.

--
David Goldfarb |"Everyone generalizes from insufficient data.
goldf...@gmail.com | I know I do."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Steven Brust

[Bruce Evans]

In article <6eace0c5-7540-470e...@googlegroups.com>,

2H. Normally only 5, since I didn't open 2H.

Semiforcing NT shouldn't deny 3+ support for spades. If you bid 2S now,
the poor fit and the low HCP are exposed to everyone at the table, so
2S is easy to X and to not balance over.

If not a passed hand, then 2S.

Bruce

[Bruce Evans]

In article <MHFLu...@kithrup.com>,

David Goldfarb <goldf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <652905bf-2cb6-47c6...@googlegroups.com>,
>Adam Beneschan <ad...@irvine.com> wrote:
>>On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 1:48:17 PM UTC-8, pgmer6809 wrote:
>>> Playing 2/1 in ACBL land, Matchpoints.
>>>
>>> You hold
>>>
>>> JT AQxxx xxx xxx
>>>
>>> You deal and Pass. The auction goes:
>>>
>>> P-(P)-1S(a)-(P);
>>> 1NT(b)-(P)-2C(c)-(P);
>>>
>>> ??
>>>
>>> (a) Could be 'light' i.e. 9-10 HCP but promises a 5+ suit.
>>> (b) SemiForcing. 5 HCP to a bad 12HCP. Denies 3+ support for spades.
>>> Opener can pass 1NT
>>> (c) Could be either a 3+ card suit in a hand with 12-18HCP or a 4+
>>suit in a shapely hand that does not want to play 1NT.
>>>
>>> Would you rebid 2H or 2S?

>> ...

>>Would Bart help here? Unfortunately, since I don't play it, I don't
>>remember the details.
>
>Bart is used to distinguish among different kinds of invitational-strength
>hands. Since this hand is weaker than that, Bart won't help here.

It helps. Just bid it to show exactly 5 hearts and pass most responses to
show a non-invitational hand. This loses mainly by getting too high with
a 5-3 heart fit if partner is non-minimum.

Bruce

[Paul Hightower]

"Bruce Evans" <b...@besplex.bde.org> wrote in message
news:keaph4$3q7$2...@dont-email.me...

I think this is better than "2H shows a hand too poor for a weak two." But
the passsed hand inference is not so obvious that I'd be eager to trot it
out without discussion. And what is opener supposed to do with a singleton
heart? Rebid the spades, presumably, but that's a problem when responder
does not have two spades. The most awkward shape, of course, would be 1543,
but then everyone will struggle with that one.

[judyo...@gmail.com]

Yes 1=5=4=3 is the nightmare. Yet I have never seen an authority emphasize the need to decide on the action after 1S-1NT; 2C-? BEFORE bidding 1NT.

Does any written authority claim that 1NT followed by 2H shows only 5 in consensus bidding?

Carl

[pgmer6809]

> Does any written authority claim that 1NT followed by 2H shows only 5 in consensus bidding?
>
>
>
> Carl

Hardy does. In his 2/1 style after 1M-1NT;2x-2y, y could be only 5 cards.
This is why it is not necessary to play Flannery. If Opener has 4=5=2=2 and not enough for a reverse he can bid 1H-1NT;2C-?
Responder with 3=1=5=4 can bid 2D. Responder will only pass 2C if he has five of them. Otherwise he will always have some sort of bid with short hearts, and only 3 spades.
pgmer6809

[HoneyMonster]

I agree (with points made elsewhere in the thread) that there is no
common sense reason why 2H should necessarily show more than 5.

Nevertheless, a quiet 2S will do for me here.

[Will in New Haven]

I see one. It may not convince you but I _want_ partner to pass 2H.
Auctions have to end sometime and misfit auctions should end quickly.

>
> Nevertheless, a quiet 2S will do for me here.

Obviously, my choice is 2S also.

--
Will in New Haven

[HoneyMonster]

On Wed, 30 Jan 2013 16:52:03 -0800, Will in New Haven wrote:

> On Jan 30, 6:48 pm, HoneyMonster <nob...@someplace.invalid> wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:48:17 -0800, pgmer6809 wrote:
>> > Playing 2/1 in ACBL land, Matchpoints.
>>
>> > You hold JT AQxxx xxx xxx
>>
>> > You deal and Pass. The auction goes:
>> > P-(P)-1S(a)-(P);
>> > 1NT(b)-(P)-2C(c)-(P);
>> > ??
>>
>> > (a) Could be 'light' i.e. 9-10 HCP but promises a 5+ suit.
>> > (b) SemiForcing. 5 HCP to a bad 12HCP. Denies 3+ support for spades.
>> >     Opener can pass 1NT
>> > (c) Could be either a 3+ card suit in a hand with 12-18HCP or a 4+
>> > suit in a shapely hand that does not want to play 1NT.
>>
>> > Would you rebid 2H or 2S?
>>
>> I agree (with points made elsewhere in the thread) that there is no
>> common sense reason why 2H should necessarily show more than 5.
>
> I see one. It may not convince you but I _want_ partner to pass 2H.
> Auctions have to end sometime and misfit auctions should end quickly.
>

True; fair point. I think we are more or less on the same wavelength
though.

[judyo...@gmail.com]

Are you sure Hardy was saying what a stranger should accept without discussion? Or just his personal preference?

Carl

[judyo...@gmail.com]

Yes. You badly need the auction 1S-1NT; 2m-2H; 2S to be a 6-4 hand with hope for game despite the weak misfit opposite. Not a minimum hand with fear of hearts.

Carl

[vsp...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, January 30, 2013 3:14:18 PM UTC-8, pgmer6809 wrote:
> > Does any written authority claim that 1NT followed by 2H shows only 5 in consensus bidding?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Carl
>
>
>
> Hardy does. In his 2/1 style after 1M-1NT;2x-2y, y could be only 5 cards.
>
> This is why it is not necessary to play Flannery. If Opener has 4=5=2=2 and not enough for a reverse he can bid 1H-1NT;2C-?
>

Opener opened 1S, therefore 1S-1NT, 2C shows
at least 3 clubs. There really any reason
for 1S-1NT, 2C-2H to show 5 hearts unless
there are 4 more hearts than spades AND the
hearts are strong.

> Responder with 3=1=5=4 can bid 2D. Responder will only pass 2C if he has five of them. Otherwise he will always have some sort of bid with short hearts, and only 3 spades.
>
> pgmer6809

Pass 2C with a minimum hand. Let partner
play the possible 3-4 fit. He probably
has 4 or more quite often. He has a max of
5 cards in the red suits in that auction.

[Paul Hightower]

"judyo...@verizon.net" <judyo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:54523f17-b8b3-4aaf...@googlegroups.com...

Carl, your postings seem to add an extra blank line for every line posted.
Are you using Google groups or other?

[judyo...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 4:48:17 PM UTC-5, pgmer6809 wrote:

Google groups. Doesn't look that way on my screen.

[Barry Margolin]

In article <kehbhh$5gm$1...@dont-email.me>,

"Paul Hightower" <paul...@net.invalid> wrote:

> Carl, your postings seem to add an extra blank line for every line posted.
> Are you using Google groups or other?

This is the first time you've noticed this? It's a bug in Google Groups
replies -- it either double-spaces the quoted material or collapses it
all into one long line.

--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA

[HoneyMonster]

Methinks the time has come simply to killfile all posts from G**gle
Groups, as I have already done in other newsgroups.

I had postponed doing so in RGB, since it is a group which relates to a
recreation, but really this is too much.

[HoneyMonster]

Notice by the way, that the offender to whom Paul Hightower addressed his
question, could not even manage to rospond in the correct thread.

[Douglas Newlands]

Yes, I was considering this too but when someone replies to a google
groups posting it will not show in the header and so you still have to
put up with the massive 1 liner or the double and fourfold and 8-fold
spacing (and worse)!

doug

[Will in New Haven]

On Feb 1, 4:47 pm, "judyorc...@verizon.net" <judyorc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Or mine either. I use GG myself.

[derek]

No, the latter is not GG's problem. It's really Apple's, who introduced a "flowed" format to news & mail posts without getting everybody else on board.

[derek]

On Friday, February 1, 2013 7:43:25 PM UTC-4, HoneyMonster wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 23:39:24 +0000, HoneyMonster wrote:
>
> > Methinks the time has come simply to killfile all posts from G**gle
> > Groups, as I have already done in other newsgroups.
>

> Notice by the way, that the offender to whom Paul Hightower addressed his
> question, could not even manage to rospond in the correct thread.

Demonstrating that the problem is posters, not Google Groups. (posted from GG without any spacing issues...)

[Barry Margolin]

In article <f1cf7919-e4e0-4e41...@googlegroups.com>,

I see this happening with many different posters, in different
newsgroups, and the common denominator is always GG. So there's clearly
an issue with GG, but maybe there's a way around it.

Do they still have the "old" and "new" GG interfaces? Maybe the problem
is with one of them, and you're using the other.

[Eric Leong]

Automatic 2S bid. Our side is assured of at least a good 5-2 spade
fit. Why leave open the possibility of playing in 2H opposite a stiff
or void?

Eric Leong

[vsp...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, January 30, 2013 3:14:18 PM UTC-8, pgmer6809 wrote:

I doubt that Hardy said that. There are
always exceptions. xxx, xx, KQJT9, xxx
This hand is worth four tricks in diamonds.
It may be worth no tricks in hearts or clubs.

[Lorne]

On 29/01/2013 21:48, pgmer6809 wrote:
> Playing 2/1 in ACBL land, Matchpoints.
>
> You hold
> JT AQxxx xxx xxx
>
> You deal and Pass. The auction goes:
> P-(P)-1S(a)-(P);
> 1NT(b)-(P)-2C(c)-(P);
> ??
>
> (a) Could be 'light' i.e. 9-10 HCP but promises a 5+ suit.
> (b) SemiForcing. 5 HCP to a bad 12HCP. Denies 3+ support for spades.
> Opener can pass 1NT
> (c) Could be either a 3+ card suit in a hand with 12-18HCP or a 4+ suit in a shapely hand that does not want to play 1NT.
>
> Would you rebid 2H or 2S?
>

2S.

I expect partner to play me for 6 low or maybe 7 low if I bid hearts,
although I could do it on a 5 card suit if only one spade.