What went wrong here?

[sofos]

Matchpoints NS vul Dealer North

West North East South
1C P 1S P
2C P P 2S
3C P P 3H
P P P

These were the EW hands

AKJT8 743
AQJ3 KT986
Q8 J632
J5 9

West thought East should have raised 3H with 5 trumps and a singleton. East thought West should have bid 2S over 1S. What do you think?

[David Goldfarb]

In article <9c037efd-814a-427b...@googlegroups.com>,

I think that either you need to tell us about E-W's bidding system,
or give us the real hands, or give us the real bidding. Why is West
rebidding clubs twice on J5? Why does West think that East should
raise 3H, when the only person bidding hearts is South? Why is West
making the first bid when North is the dealer?

--
David Goldfarb |"It doesn't matter. Don't you see? Nothing matters!"
goldf...@gmail.com |
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Fredric Brown, "Come and Go Mad"

[Dave Flower]

On Saturday, 11 May 2013 07:42:12 UTC+1, David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <9c037efd-814a-427b...@googlegroups.com>, sofos <papak...@earthlink.net> wrote: >Matchpoints NS vul Dealer North > >West North East South > 1C P 1S P > 2C P P 2S > 3C P P 3H > P P P > >These were the EW hands > >AKJT8 743 >AQJ3 KT986 >Q8 J632 >J5 9 > >West thought East should have raised 3H with 5 trumps and a singleton. >East thought West should have bid 2S over 1S. What do you think? I think that either you need to tell us about E-W's bidding system, or give us the real hands, or give us the real bidding. Why is West rebidding clubs twice on J5? Why does West think that East should raise 3H, when the only person bidding hearts is South? Why is West making the first bid when North is the dealer? -- David Goldfarb |"It doesn't matter. Don't you see? Nothing matters!" goldf...@gmail.com | gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Fredric Brown, "Come and Go Mad"

Looks to me as if North opened 1C - everything makes sense then

Dave Flower

PS East should, of course, bid 4H

[Nick Wedd]

You mean like this?

North East South West

1C P 1S P
2C P P 2S
3C P P 3H
P P P

These were the EW hands

AKJT8 743
AQJ3 KT986
Q8 J632
J5 9

Then E's pass of 3H seems feeble, but it does make much more sense.

Nick

[judyo...@gmail.com]

Bidding 2S over 1S gets you to a contract of 2S. Which, by the way is where the chosen auction would have ended if opener had been sane enough not to make the chance-giving (a Grosvenor gambit?????) bid of 3C.

Carl

[Adam Beneschan]

On Saturday, May 11, 2013 3:18:32 AM UTC-7, Nick Wedd wrote:

> > Looks to me as if North opened 1C - everything makes sense then
>
> You mean like this?
>
> North East South West
> 1C P 1S P
> 2C P P 2S
> 3C P P 3H
> P P P
>
>
> These were the EW hands
>
> AKJT8 743
> AQJ3 KT986
> Q8 J632
> J5 9
>
> Then E's pass of 3H seems feeble, but it does make much more sense.

Maybe East was looking at his three spades and expecting a heart game would go down on a spade ruff or two?

-- Adam

[Steve Willner]

On 2013-05-10 10:43 PM, sofos wrote:
> Matchpoints NS vul Dealer North

[directions corrected to what was apparently meant]
North East South West

> 1C P 1S P
> 2C P P 2S
> 3C P P 3H
> P P P

> AKJT8 743
> AQJ3 KT986
> Q8 J632
> J5 9

> West thought East should have raised 3H with 5 trumps and a singleton.
> East thought West should have bid 2S over 1S. What do you think?

Unlike almost everyone else, I'm with East. Why can't West have the
same hand with one less honor in the majors? And even as it is, why
shouldn't spades be 5-0 with South having a minor-suit entry?

As Carl pointed out, perhaps the real culprit might be North, who
probably should have passed 2S. That might have been harder to do if
West had bid the normal 2S on the first round. In the actual auction,
North has already shown long clubs and has less reason to bid 3C, though
it might have been reasonable. (We haven't seen his hand.)

--
Help keep our newsgroup healthy; please don't feed the trolls.
Steve Willner Phone 617-495-7123 swil...@nhcc.net
Cambridge, MA 02138 USA

[Bruce Evans]

In article <kms5p9$r8b$1...@dont-email.me>,

Steve Willner <swil...@nhcc.net> wrote:
>On 2013-05-10 10:43 PM, sofos wrote:
>> Matchpoints NS vul Dealer North
>[directions corrected to what was apparently meant]
> North East South West
>> 1C P 1S P
>> 2C P P 2S
>> 3C P P 3H
>> P P P
>> AKJT8 743
>> AQJ3 KT986
>> Q8 J632
>> J5 9
>
> > West thought East should have raised 3H with 5 trumps and a singleton.
> > East thought West should have bid 2S over 1S. What do you think?

I think North/South underbid 2 tricks. Did they miss 5C or 6C?

East/West only underbid 1 trick (unless they need to sacrifice over
5C or 6C).

>Unlike almost everyone else, I'm with East. Why can't West have the
>same hand with one less honor in the majors? And even as it is, why
>shouldn't spades be 5-0 with South having a minor-suit entry?

West must have something. He might have 2 fewer honors in the majors and
3 fewer in the minors, but 1 more heart (AKJT8 Axxxx x xx). I don't know
how to bid that.

5-0 spades makes 5C colder, but more of an error not to bid:

North South
- Q9652
75 42
A974 KT5
AKT7432 Q83

It takes 2-2 hearts for 5C not to be cold when spades are 5-0. With this
layout, 5C is down; 4H should be down but requires care to beat; 5C scores
better than 3H unless it is doubled but requires a matchpoints gamble to
double.

>As Carl pointed out, perhaps the real culprit might be North, who
>probably should have passed 2S. That might have been harder to do if
>West had bid the normal 2S on the first round. In the actual auction,
>North has already shown long clubs and has less reason to bid 3C, though
>it might have been reasonable. (We haven't seen his hand.)

I think 2S is normally a 1-suiter with 6 cards and intermediate values, so
2S here isn't normal. Who passes 2S (or 2C) when you have a 10-card club
fit and the values for making between 4 and 6C? If North didn't have enough
to bid 3C, then South would have enough to bid it.

The same Subject line applies to all of the contracts 2S, 3C, 3H, 4C, 4H,
4Hx, 5C, 5Cx, 5H, 5Hx, 6C, 6Cx, 6H, 6Hx depending on what was bid and what
makes. At imp scoring I think it would be an error for anyone to stop
short of 5H (since both 4H and 5C are both makes or down 1 and there is
no way to tell which, so one side should bid them and the other side should
bid 1 more). At MP scoring the problem is more difficult.

Bruce

[derek]

On Friday, May 10, 2013 11:43:04 PM UTC-3, sofos wrote:
> Matchpoints NS vul Dealer North
>

> North East South West

> 1C P 1S P
> 2C P P 2S
> 3C P P 3H
> P P P
>
> These were the EW hands
>
> AKJT8 743
> AQJ3 KT986
> Q8 J632
> J5 9
>
> West thought East should have raised 3H with 5 trumps and a singleton. East thought West should have bid 2S over 1S. What do you think?

Whether they think East is right or not, nobody has criticized East for suggesting a natural spade bid by West on the first round.

Do you really all play that as natural? I don't think a single one of my partners would have expected this hand if I bid 2S immediately after 1S - certainly my regular partner would be expecting an NT bid with those spades (I realize 1NT is not an option for most with the poor clubs).

[Will in New Haven]

On May 14, 9:48 am, derek <de...@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> On Friday, May 10, 2013 11:43:04 PM UTC-3, sofos wrote:
> > Matchpoints NS vul Dealer North
>
> >  North  East  South  West
> >  1C     P     1S     P
> >  2C     P     P      2S
> >  3C     P     P      3H
> >  P      P     P
>
> > These were the EW hands
>
> > AKJT8    743
> > AQJ3     KT986
> > Q8       J632
> > J5       9
>
> > West thought East should have raised 3H with 5 trumps and a singleton. East thought West should have bid 2S over 1S. What do you think?
>
> Whether they think East is right or not, nobody has criticized East for suggesting a natural spade bid by West on the first round.
>
> Do you really all play that as natural? I don't think a single one of my partners would have expected this hand if I bid 2S immediately after 1S

We play it as natural but my partner would generally expect a less
balanced hand. Still, that is a hand on which I would bid 2S.

- certainly my regular partner would be expecting an NT bid with those
spades (I realize 1NT is not an option for most with the poor clubs).

Not having the rule in place that the opponents may not run a bunch of
tricks in a Minor suit, we are somewhat picky about natural NT
overcalls with Jx in a Minor that the opponents have bid. However, the
hand is also too strong in playing strength for a natural 1NT
overcall, which we don't play anyway.

--
Will in New Haven

[derek]

No, I agree we wouldn't be bidding NT with _that_ hand. I'm just saying that the spades are far better than my partner expects unless I bid NT. How we'd ever get to a making NT game if partner had the clubs well-stopped, I have no idea - since she isn't bidding NT without the spade stopper she can't possibly have.

[Will in New Haven]

In this case, it's not difficult, you make an immediate natural 2S bid
and partner knows that you have the suit stopped. She also knows you
have a decent hand. Now if you belong in a NT game, you will get
there.

I think the _delayed_ 2S bid was erroneous because that shows more
like this type of hand: KJT9xx KJTx x xx, not really strong enough to
come in directly but with enough Spades that one doesn't want to let
them play 2C. Of course, coming back in with 3H would be odd.

Of course, if your hand is flat and your high card strength and
location is the same and partner has the Club stopper and a smattering
of strength, you can miss a NT contract by being picky about the Club
stopper.