Penalty or takeout?
Frisbieinstein
4
KJ85
AQ864
KT9
Partner deals.
P (2S) X (3S)
X
Takeout or penalty?
castigamatti
Responsive. Meaning minors.
B.R.
TWOferBRIDGE
888888888888888888888888888888
Ditto... Responsive for the minors.
If partner had Hts, he would just bid them.
- - Don - -
Sid
"Frisbieinstein" <patmp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:434bb26c-f8c8-47ae...@z3g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Takeout. Responsive double, showing the minors.
Partner is probably 2=3=4=4, 3=1-4-5 or 2=2-4-5 with 8+ points.
Sid
alvin
Henry:
I agree that this auction is today played as responsive. Classically,
this was be a penalty double. Then the popular mood changed, and
responsive held sway over a raise of a 1-level opener, with penalty
still preferred over a raise of a preempt. But,apparently, most
players would today make a responsive double (here, for the minors)
even over a raise of a preempt.
I question wherther this makes sense. For example, if partner held a
hand such as SQJxx H Axx D xxx C AJx or the like, a maximum paas with
a balanced hand (though many weak NTers would open it) how can he
double for penalties, or induce you to do so? Note that bidding 3NT is
out, despite the values in partner's hand, simply because the initial
double is not strong enough for 3NT to make (another modern trend -
histrorically, one did not make a takeout double unless you were safe
at the indicated level opposite a random six or seven HCP, which,
clearly, you are not; you need about a king more, possibly even more
than that, especially as the upside is limited by partner's initial
pass - you might, with a bad trump break and a misguess in clubs, go
down even in 3D opposite this twelve count, while declarer, with, say
A10xxxx opposite Kx, could lose two trump tricks, and possibly as many
as five or six others.(depending on his distribution).
Alvin P. Bluthman
apblu...@aol.com
Nick France
I like to play this as penalty in nature. I see no need for it to be
responsive as the opponents are preempting and I need a way to
penalize them.
Nick France
Fred.
I agree with those who say the today's understanding is responsive and
it should be penalty. If responder, as should be, but often is not,
knows that the double would be responsive, then it is frequently
correct for responder to raise over the double since it will provide
added preemptive effect and _prevent a penalty pass_. Only if the
original doubler has the extra values to double again over 3S, or if
the responsive double is suffiently cooperative to challenge the
orignal doubler's ethics, is it possible for the defenders to make a
penalty double stick. My bias is toward agreements which work when,
as happens most often, the partnership assets are more evenly divided.
By the way, I think responder's situation is very difficult in this
regard. Responder is unlikely to know the flavor of a double from LHO
and cannot inquire without giving AI to the opponents and UI to
partner. This may make the responsive double more effective than it
really should be, since it gives up the penalty double but not the
threat of it.
Fred.
Will in New Haven
Absent discussion, with a modern player, it is takeout with an
emphasis on the minors. Partner may bid 4D directly in this auction if
that is clearly the right strain from his PoV. He may bid 4H over your
minor-suit bid to show four-only Hearts and lack of certainty about
the right contract.
There are advantages for playing this as penalty-oriented but I would
only play it that way after a discussion.
--
Will in New Haven
Eric Leong
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think a double show cards but you don't know what to bid.
Example:
S x S xxxx
H AQxx H Kxx
D Qxxx D AKx
C AKxx C Qxx
Certainly, you don't want partner to play dead and pass over 3S and
you don't have the minors.
Eric Leong
TWOferBRIDGE
>
> - Show quoted text -
8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
Richard Pavlicek may chime in.
I have in my notes that he says Responsive DBLs
are OFF when opps opened a WEAK-2 .
However, other sources say they are ON ( thru 3S).
henry...@yahoo.com
As others have mentioned, this is typically played as a responsive
double, meaning it is for takeout.
However, I disagree with the way it is usually used.
I prefer that the responsive double show 4 hearts (only), and that a
heart advance show 5 or more. This means that when I have both
minors, I have to guess which minor to choose, since 3nt needs to be
available as a natural place to play.
But the gain for me is in sorting out my heart fits and giving doubler
an idea as to whether or not to compete to 5h if they bid to 4s.
This is a very much minority view that I think I got from Jeff Rubens
a long time ago. (If not, apologies to Rubens for slandering his good
bridge sense rofl.)
Henrysun909
Andrew
Depends on your agreements of course, but IMO takeout is superior by a
mile.
Andrew
boblipton
Why are you asking us? Shouldn't you have asked your partner before
you started?
I presumed righty passed.
Bob
Kieran Dyke
"Frisbieinstein" <patmp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:434bb26c-f8c8-47ae...@z3g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
For approximately all good players, responsive - somewhere in the realm
between takeout and value-showing. It can be passed, but that won't happen
often at this level. (At game level, it would be passed often, although it
still wouldn't show trump tricks).
I'd bid 4D. If he had hearts, he might have bid them already, or he might
bid them now (suggesting more high cards, fewer and lesser hearts, more
flexibility).
Tiggrr
Adam Beneschan
> On Nov 22, 6:05 am, Frisbieinstein <patmpow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Red vs. green, IMPs
>
> > 4
> > KJ85
> > AQ864
> > KT9
>
> > Partner deals.
>
> > P (2S) X (3S)
> > X
>
> > Takeout or penalty?
> I question wherther this makes sense. For example, if partner held a
> hand such as SQJxx H Axx D xxx C AJx or the like, a maximum paas with
> a balanced hand (though many weak NTers would open it) how can he
> double for penalties, or induce you to do so?
Well, you could reopen with another takeout double, with your certain
shortness (and likely void).
Maybe there are some minimum takeout doubles that you'd just pass
out---I don't know. But this needs to be factored in. When weighing
whether double by fourth hand is more useful as a penalty double or a
responsive double, it needs to be kept in mind that you don't need a
penalty double on a certain percentage of hands where you'd like to
make a penalty double, because partner can reopen.
-- Adam
Raija D
"TWOferBRIDGE" <donst...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2a429508-78c0-49cd...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
I didn't bother to look what Pavlicek says, but if responsive is on, we
don't have a penalty double available; that IMO is system weakness if no
penalty is available. I would have thought this is a matter of agreements, I
know many who play it responsive. My preference would be "cards" without 4
cards in the unbid major(s).
Raija
Frisbieinstein
> "TWOferBRIDGE" <donstenm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
so I think penalty is more useful. Being able to play in a marginal
4C or 4D is nice but not exciting.
castigamatti
Really, and playing in a marginal 5C, 5D also I suppose, not exciting
I mean.
B.R.
Frances
wrote:
It may be a minority view in the US, but a very common English
agreement is that responsive doubles promise two places to play (or
possibly just a balanced hand as in Eric's example hands modified for
partner having passed in first seat). If you have to bid 4H every
time you hold 4 of them, you are going to be in too many uncomfortable
4H contracts. You also miss out when partner would have passed your
responsive double on a more balanced hand (e.g. 2344 15-count).
We play (as is quite commonly played) that double in principle has any
two suits, although will usually not have five hearts. So
2S x 3S x
P...
4C P 4H = I have hearts and either minor and want to play in game
4C P 4D = I have the reds but you can pass 4D if you want
4D P 4H = I either have hearts and clubs, or I have the reds and want
to play in game
4H P 5C = I have the minors (as a passed hand 4NT would also show
this, but as an unpassed hand 4NT is RKCB in hearts)