Assign the blame for bad slam
metobillc
KQ986 98 AK4 KQ4
opposite
T5 AT763 J A9853
The auction proceeded:
1C-1H (16+HCP artificial (17 if balanced) --- 8+ HCP and 5+ hearts,
GF)
1S-2C
2N-3C (typically 17-19 balanced --- typically 5-5 in the rounded
suits)
4C-4D
4S-6C
North argued that 2N put on the brakes, and that after agreeing clubs
and hearing the 4D cuebid, his spade cuebid below game was mandatory.
South argued that the 4S bid showed an even more suitable hand for
clubs than North held, within the confines of 17-19 HCP and 3-card
support. North countered that the South hand was unlimited, and would
bid exactly the same way holding the KH instead of a low heart. In
addition, South was a minimum for his sequence through 3C, and that as
4S denied the KH, South should sign off.
Assign the blame (with helpful suggestions appreciated).
Bill Campbell
OldPalooka
2NT pumped the breaks but opener let up on the pedal too soon. He
holds only 5 fitting points and roughly 12 working points if partner
was 5-5 in the rounds, and he had solid double stoppers in both
pointed suits. The only bright spot for a high level club contract on
this hand was it was not 5-2-4-2, but partner could deduce he probably
held this much help.
boblipton
100% to lack of partnership understanding.
I think this partnership needs to figure out whether cue-bdding here
is mandatory or not.
And I think responder could have put the brakes on a touch by bidding
4NT if that is natural.
And you're never going to solve it by squabbling over whose fault it
is. You need to figure where the disconnect came from and how you are
going to solve it.
Bob
henry...@yahoo.com
In my opinion, South was wrong to bid out his shape. Assuming that
2nt did show 17-19, does he really want to go slamming with 2 aces and
no fit in either major? While slam is possible opposite a perfect
fitting hand
Axxxx
xx
AKx
KQJ
xx
Axxxx
x
A98xx
I still wouldn't want to be there. I blame South for not having the
extra values his sequence implies.
On the actual hand, my sequence would be:
1c 1nt(1)
2c(2) 2d(3)
2h(2) 3s(4)
3nt(5) pass(6)
1nt = positive with hearts
2c/2h = relay
2d = several hand types, including secondary clubs
3s = low shortness in a 5521 hand, thus exactly 2=5=1=5
3nt = to play but not an absolute signoff; a sound opening bid
opposite is expected to bid again.
pass = I have far from a sound opening bid.
Henrysun909
jogs
Plenty of blame to go around. More than 100%
- 1C-1H (16+HCP artificial (17 if balanced) --- 8+ HCP and 5+
hearts,
- GF)
- 1S-2C
- 2N-
Seems okay at this point. Responder has 9 points, 4 controls
and 5-5. Does he really want to investigate slam? The DJ is
likely to be worth nothing.
Now is there a chance there is 5-3 hearts and it's a better game
than 3NT. 3C is iffy but not clearly bad.
1C-1H
1S-2C
2N-3C
3N
Complete brakes. 4 1/2(club queen is 1/2) controls. Responder
needs 6 controls for good slam and will probably be willing to
bid over 3N. 3N denies 3-card support.
1C-1H
1S-2C
2N-3C
4C-4D
Not my style. 2nd round control must be king, not king or
singleton. 4H planning to pass a rebid of 4N. On a cue
bidding sequence a non jump 4N is to play.
1C-1H
1S-2C
2N-3C
4C-4D
4N
Since opener has AK of diamonds, he knows the 4D bid
is singleton or void. More brakes. 4N is to PLAY. Strong
hand only bids 1st round control unless partner 'took' his bid.
This is neither.
metobillc
One of the reasons for the post was to hear opinions on whether or not
it's better to play that
a cuebid is mandatory here, and under what circumstances should that
be.
> And I think responder could have put the brakes on a touch by bidding
> 4NT if that is natural.
4N would have been natural, and both partners knew that the other
would take it as such.
> And you're never going to solve it by squabbling over whose fault it
> is. You need to figure where the disconnect came from and how you are
> going to solve it.
Absolutely. I only entitled the post "Assign the blame" because it's
the traditional title for this style of discussion.
Bill
metobillc
No, 5 cover cards (not 4&1/2 -- the QC is carrying full value here),
so if partner has an LTC of 6, slam is possible. Surely there are
worse 17-counts than North -- KJxxx Jx AKQ KJx is 18, and a clear 3N
bid. There have to be some hands in between a direct raise of 2C to
3C, and hands that should bid 2N then 3N.
> Responder
> needs 6 controls for good slam and will probably be willing to
> bid over 3N. 3N denies 3-card support.
>
> 1C-1H
> 1S-2C
> 2N-3C
> 4C-4D
>
> Not my style. 2nd round control must be king, not king or
> singleton. 4H planning to pass a rebid of 4N. On a cue
> bidding sequence a non jump 4N is to play.
>
> 1C-1H
> 1S-2C
> 2N-3C
> 4C-4D
> 4N
>
> Since opener has AK of diamonds, he knows the 4D bid
> is singleton or void. More brakes.
North already knew that he was covering 2 of the 3 pointed-suit
losers. The fact that the shortness was in diamonds rather than
spades didn't make the hand any worse -- in fact, it's slightly better
for South to have a doubleton spade, as it may be easier to establish
that suit. Again, if a cuebid is mandatory, it's mandatory, so
there's no question of brakes here if that's the case. If South held
xx AKJTx x AJxxx , he surely needs to know about a spade control for
slam -- North could have QJTxx Qx AKJ KQx, for example.
> 4N is to PLAY. Strong
> hand only bids 1st round control unless partner 'took' his bid.
> This is neither.
This is a style issue -- we've agreed to freely bid 1st and 2nd round
controls below game, with one exception -- we don't show shortness in
partner's long suits (any 5+ card suit).
Bill
Henry Lockwood
I'm intrigued by North's decision not to rebid 1NT - I play a strong
diamond sequence, and the 1NT rebid is mandatory with 16-19 balanced.
After that start, S would transfer into H then rebid D, and we'd reach
3NT.
On your actual auction, I don't have any objections up to 2NT. 3C
seems to be hoping for slam, which seems unlikely on South's hand, but
should not be a problem if you can stop short. I don't like North's
4C bid - yes, it sets trumps, but North has a minimum with bad
hearts. I can't see a better call there, though, as 3NT is too
unilateral.
Now the cue-bidding. S knows that N is lacking a second-round heart
control, meaning there is a heart loser. He has a first/second-round
spade control; if it's first-round then there's still a spade loser to
dispose of, and South's hand provides no obvious way of doing so.
Slam takes N having first-round controls in both spades and diamonds -
which he hasn't shown - and no bad trump split. I think S should give
up on slam, and bid 5C. Yes, you'll miss some slams where N has the
spade A instead of KQ, but not so many that I think it's a problem.
Caveat: I don't play 1st/2nd round cues, so may misunderstand some of
the nuances.
HenryL
castigamatti
1C - 1H
1S - 2C
2N - 3C
3D - 3N
All pass
It looks and it feels like a misfit. Opener controlling diamonds and
spades and responder clubs and hearts, the singleton jack, good
intermediates. The 2NT shows a balanced hand, the 3D from opener can't
be from a four card suit.
The partnership is obviously holding an eight card club fit, no heart
fit ergo obviously clubs. Nevertheless this is not the worst hand that
opener can have KQ986 98 AK4 KQ4, take for instance this hand KQ986 Q8
AK4 K42. In any event no super-fit, minimum values on both sides for a
slam investigation and 'notrumpish' distribution of honors, a lot of
stoppers but not many tricks. Not that 3NT will always make though but
at least it stands a chance.
BR
castigamatti
With...
JT
AT763
5
A9853
...this bidding sequence is probably correct
1C - 1H
1S - 2C
2N - 3C
3D - 3S
4S AP
BR
castigamatti
With...
KQ986
Q8
AK4
K42
...probably
1C - 1H
1S - 2C
2N - 3C
3H - 3S
4S AP
Opener's hand looks just awful for slam investigation and his partner
is minimum.
BR
Dave Flower
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Even opposite your perfect minimum, 6C requires quite a bit of luck on
a trump lead.
Personally, I am in agreement with others that 3C was not a good bid.
Partner declined to use FSF, so, presumably has good reason to play in
NT. Actually, on a minimum hand, I think that 2C should show a 5-
carder.
Dave Flower
Rob Morris
> Precision bidding practice, IMPs; North holds:
> KQ986 98 AK4 KQ4
>
> opposite
>
> T5 AT763 J A9853
>
> GF)
> 1S-2C
> 2N-3C (typically 17-19 balanced --- typically 5-5 in the rounded
> suits)
> 4C-4D
> 4S-6C
>
South 100%, for driving on in an unlimited fashion, showing two suits
and then cue-bidding a third, then bidding slam when opener made one
positive noise.
Opener has patterned out even more thoroughly than responder - 5=2=3=3
with a weak doubleton is pretty strongly indicated. Sure, slam might
still make if opener has good spades that can be set up, but more often
it will be on a finesse or several breaks or just cold off. South has
the information needed to avoid slam.
p.s. in case this seems a bit harsh, I have real trouble staying out of
bad slams when playing Precision too :-) I'll be showing this hand to my
partner and discussing whether responder should pattern out.
--
Rob Morris
arr emm four four five (at) cam dot ac dot uk
Rob Morris
> I'm intrigued by North's decision not to rebid 1NT - I play a strong
> diamond sequence, and the 1NT rebid is mandatory with 16-19 balanced.
> After that start, S would transfer into H then rebid D, and we'd reach
> 3NT.
That isn't really the Precision way - I think it's pretty normal to bid
natural suits over a positive and suggest notrumps later.
Perhaps I'm wrong, I learned the system with the asking-bid structures
that were popular in early Precision. Then 1C-1H-1S is an asking-bid in
spades and the obvious way to look for a spade fit. (Responder can break
the ask to 3C with a two-suiter, though that's a bit rich with the
actual hand under discussion).
In any case, it seems possible to bid entirely naturally, if after 1C-1H
opener bids a 5-card spade suit if he has one. While your way requires
some agreements if spade fits are not to be lost. Apparently those
agreements are as simple as 'systems on' - since it's hard to see the
benefit of being able to transfer to hearts having already bid 1H :-)
Eric Leong
I would bid 3d instead of 4C to show club interest since if you had
three card heart support you would show it first.
If partner bids 3NT then I give up. Still 4C is not unreasonable but I
think South's bid of 6C is out to lunch. First, he has nothing extra.
Second, if North need just two aces from South he could have easily
asked instead of bidding 4S. Finally, South should figure out that
partner cannot have honor doubleton in hearts otherwise he would have
bid cuebid 4H. Consequently, South should be taken out and shot.
Eric Leong
jogs
Yeah, I miscounted. Doesn't 3C mean 5-5 in clubs and hearts
or only 5-4? Still most of the strength is in partner's short suits.
Now I like Eric's continuation.
1C-1H
1S-2C
2N-3C
3D
Planning is pass 3NT.
1C-1H
1S-2C
2N-3C
3D-3H
3N
3H should be 1st rd control. But 2nd rd with much extra
strength is okay.
3NT. No point it bidding 2nd rd control in partner's known
short suit. Opener does not wish to encourage slam
anymore. 12 of the 17 HCP are outside partner's suits.