Monopoly rules question
Aaron Marsh
question as possible to settle a dispute:
If a player is in jail, has less than $50 and no unmortgaged property
and fails to roll doubles after the third turn, BUT he has a Get Out
of Jail Free card, what happens?
A) the player is bankrupt because the card was not played at the
beginning of the turn
B) the player MUST use the card and immediately move the number of
spaces on the dice
C) the player can choose whether to use it and move that number of
spaces, or can choose not to use it and go bankrupt, with all property
returning to the bank
D) something else
The official rules aren't very clear on this case. They do say:
"If the player does not throw doubles by his third turn he must pay
the $50 fine. He then gets out of Jail and immediately moves forward
the number of spaces shown by his throw."
Eric Nielsen
> and fails to roll doubles after the third turn, BUT he has a Get Out
> of Jail Free card, what happens?
>
> A) the player is bankrupt because the card was not played at the
> beginning of the turn
> B) the player MUST use the card and immediately move the number of
> spaces on the dice
> C) the player can choose whether to use it and move that number of
> spaces, or can choose not to use it and go bankrupt, with all property
> returning to the bank
> D) something else
The answer is (A)...you are unable to use the GOJF card if you choose to
throw the dice the third time, regardless of your financial situation. You
owe $50 to the bank, and if you are unable to raise that, you go bankrupt to
the bank.
Peter Clinch
> The answer is (A)...you are unable to use the GOJF card if you choose to
> throw the dice the third time, regardless of your financial situation. You
> owe $50 to the bank, and if you are unable to raise that, you go bankrupt to
> the bank.
Unless you can sell the GOOJF to someone for enough to cover your
shortfall...
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Josh Adelson
news:BijH9.23473$pN3.2079@sccrnsc03...
> The answer is (A)...you are unable to use the GOJF card if you choose to
> throw the dice the third time, regardless of your financial situation.
You
> owe $50 to the bank, and if you are unable to raise that, you go bankrupt
to
> the bank.
The key play to make here, as an opponent, is figure out exactly how much
money the current player needs to stay solvent, and offer to buy the GOJF
for exactly one dollar less. It keeps the atmosphere light.
Mark Biggar
BTW, there is a fourth option. Sell the GOJF card to another player
to raise the $50.
--
Mark Biggar
mark.a...@attbi.com
Craftybstd
>The official rules aren't very clear on this case. They do say:
>"If the player does not throw doubles by his third turn he must pay
>the $50 fine. He then gets out of Jail and immediately moves forward
>the number of spaces shown by his throw."
They sound very clear to me. The answer is A.
Russ Craft
Corby Gilmore
I would think that the player simply uses the GOOJF card in lieu of
paying the 50 dollar fine, then moves the requisite number of spaces.
--
Corby Gilmore
co...@ncf.ca
Edward D. Collins
>> They do say: "If the player does not throw doubles
>> by his third turn he must pay the $50 fine. He then
>> gets out of Jail and immediately moves forward
>> the number of spaces shown by his throw."
> They sound very clear to me. The answer is A.
I agree this is what the rules say, but I'm wondering if this is what was
intended. After all, that's what a "Get Out Of Jail Card Free" card is for...
to get out of jail for free. If the bank was willing to accept this in leiu
of $50.00 a turn earlier, why not now?
Late in the game jail is a wonderful place to be and the player may certainly
have wanted to stay a criminal for as long as he could and not leave any
sooner than he has to, hence the reason for not using the card a turn or two
earlier. The player also has the right to wish to save the card and attempt
to get out by rolling doubles. After his third turn, however, we know he
isn't allowed to stay in jail any longer and must pay the fine and leave. But
I'm thinking he should be able to pay the fine with the card... that's what
the card is for.
The bank certainly has no use for a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card, which is why
you are not allowed to sell this back to the bank, at any time, for any
amount. However, the bank should be forced to honor them whenever a player is
in jail and wishes to use it to get out... third turn or not.
I agree, the rules say otherwise but this sounds like one of those rules where
one has to read between the lines.
Ed Collins
natejschmidt
The key is in paying (whether $50 or card) *prior to* rolling the
dice, instead of afterwards. It's roll OR pay, not both. But hey, if
you're convinced it's within the "spirit of the law", why not make it
house rule? Wouldn't be the first one for the game - certainly not
the worst one either!
Nate
The Midnight Skulker
> dice, instead of afterwards.
This could be significant. Suppose, for example, the orange color group
has been developed by another player, making rolls of 6, 8, and 9
expensive, maybe even disastrous. But for this rule the player could
opt to accept the roll of some other number after the fact to decrease
the chance of landing on one of the orange properties on the current
pass.
For the situation as originally presented -- player has less than $50
and no unmortgaged property -- my guess is that the player, who has no
source of income, is playing on borrowed time anyway. The only
question, then, is whether that player must exit the game immediately
or can prolong the agony for a few turns.
1 2
| The Midnight Skulker
9 * 3 aka Van Lewis
aka cvl...@earthlink.net
6
Don Woods
> > The key is in paying (whether $50 or card) *prior to* rolling the
> > dice, instead of afterwards.
>
> This could be significant. Suppose, for example, the orange color group
> has been developed by another player, making rolls of 6, 8, and 9
> expensive, maybe even disastrous. But for this rule the player could
> opt to accept the roll of some other number after the fact to decrease
> the chance of landing on one of the orange properties on the current
> pass.
No. You're suggesting that the player could, on his first or second
roll in jail, wait to see the dice and then use the GOJF card to leave
jail if the roll is safe. But that's not what was suggested. After
all, you can't roll the dice and then decide whether to pay the $50,
so why should you be able to use the card?
After the third non-doubles, you're REQUIRED to pay the fine and use
the roll. All that's being suggested is that the GOJF card is always
allowed as a substitute to paying the $50 jail fine, even after the
third roll. You can still only use it at a time when you could (or
must) otherwise have paid the fine.
-- Don.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Don Woods (don...@iCynic.com) Note: If you reply by mail, I'll get to
-- http://www.iCynic.com/~don it sooner if you remove the "hyphen n s"
Edward D. Collins
> After the third non-doubles, you're REQUIRED to
> pay the fine and use the roll. All that's being
> suggested is that the GOJF card is always allowed
> as a substitute to paying the $50 jail fine, even
> after the third roll. You can still only use it
> at a time when you could (or must) otherwise have
> paid the fine.
Exactly, Don. Thanks. And I don't see anything wrong with allowing this.
But as we've already mentioned, the rules do say otherwise. They rules do
indeed say he MUST PAY the fine.
"If the player does not throw
doubles by his third turn he
must pay the $50 fine."
In fact, I glanced at the rules in PDF format last night (that seemed to be
easier than dragging out my own Monopoly set and looking at the rule book...
am I getting lazy or what) and if I recall the words MUST PAY in the sentence
above are italicized. (Or maybe there were listed in bold print.) Since the
rules do not mention in this sentence that turning in the GOoJF card is okay,
then one would certainly have a valid argument for not allowing it.
I remember reading (somewhere) that Monopoly's rules have actually changed
very, very little since they were originally written, way back in the 1930s.
It is my contention then it was desired to point out that one was NOT allowed
to stay in jail indefinitely... that after the third turn, one MUST get out
and pay the fine, hence the words MUST PAY being written in italics. However,
I don't think you can convince me that it was intentional to NOT allow turning
in a GOoJF card at this point.
If I was a Monopoly Tournament Director and directing a Monopoly tourney this
situation came up, I'd say something like, "Since the Bank issued the card it
is forced to accept it in lieu of the $50 fine any time it is presented. Now
please continue the game."
:)
Ed Collins
Lars Wagner Hansen
news:3df1...@news.pcmagic.net...
<Snip>
> "If the player does not throw
> doubles by his third turn he
> must pay the $50 fine."
>
> In fact, I glanced at the rules in PDF format last night (that
seemed to be
> easier than dragging out my own Monopoly set and looking at the
rule book...
> am I getting lazy or what) and if I recall the words MUST PAY
in the sentence
> above are italicized. (Or maybe there were listed in bold
print.) Since the
> rules do not mention in this sentence that turning in the GOoJF
card is okay,
> then one would certainly have a valid argument for not allowing
it.
So what are the exact wording on the GOOJF card? Maybe that could
solve the question.
Lars
The Midnight Skulker
> > another player, making rolls of 6, 8, and 9 expensive, maybe even
> > disastrous. But for this rule the player could opt to accept the
> > roll of some other number after the fact to decrease the chance of
> > landing on one of the orange properties on the current pass.
>
> No. You're suggesting that the player could, on his first or second
> roll in jail, wait to see the dice and then use the GOJF card to leave
> jail if the roll is safe.
Please reread the last sentence I included from my original post paying
particular attention to the phrase "but for" (= "except for" = "were it
not for"). Hopefully you will then see that I suggested no such thing,
and in fact stated the opposite, as did you.
> But that's not what was suggested. After all, you can't roll the dice
> and then decide whether to pay the $50, so why should you be able to
> use the card?
Quite so. I was merely noting the reason for the rule requiring a
decision ->before<- the roll.
> After the third non-doubles, you're REQUIRED to pay the fine and use
> the roll.
Yes. Since players cannot go broke sitting in the can the game could go
on indefinitely if there were no rule forcing an incarcerated player
back into action.
> All that's being suggested is that the GOJF card is always allowed as
> a substitute to paying the $50 jail fine, even after the third roll.
> You can still only use it at a time when you could (or must) otherwise
> have paid the fine.
Actually this is what the discussion is about: is the GOoJF card
->always<- allowed to substitute for the $50 fine? Without studying the
rules myself I would argue that the card can ->not<- be used ->after<-
the third roll. For one thing that is how I interpret the rule as
quoted by others, but I have another reason as well. The intent of the
mechanism for getting out of jail seems to be to force the player to
make a pre-roll decision. Because of the (necessary) forced exit rule
the decision before the third roll is a no-brainer under normal
circumstances: since the player is going to be moving regardless of what
it is he/she might as well try to avoid having to pay the fine.
Forbidding the use of a GOoJF card after the third roll (and requiring
the fine be paid) makes the decision a real one again.
Don Woods
> So what are the exact wording on the GOOJF card? Maybe that could
> solve the question.
Not really. It just says "Get out of jail free" and "this card may
be kept until needed or sold".
Now, I'll grant that the rules don't mention using the card after
failing to roll doubles the third time. However, the rules don't
actually mention when you can use the card at all. What they say
(in the edition I have closest to hand) is:
You get out of Jail by... (1) throwing doubles on any of
your next three turns [details omitted]; (2) using the
"Get Out of Jail Free" card if you have it; (3) purchasing
the "Get Out of Jail Free" card...and playing it; or (4)
paying a fine of $50 before you roll the dice on either of
your next two turns.
First off, note that the rules don't even give the option of paying
the fine when you're about to roll the third time. (If you could pay
then, you'd gain the ability to roll again if you get doubles. Not a
big deal usually.) But more relevant to the current topic, the rules
don't say WHEN you use the GOoJF card. From what's written, you might
conclude that it's okay to use the card after rolling the dice on ANY
of the three rolls. Does anyone know for sure that that's not what's
intended? (Not that I've ever played it that way, but heck, people
are arguing that the rules don't say you can use it in place of the
fine after the third roll, so I thought I should observe that the
rules don't make ANY comment as to when the card can be used.)
Edward D. Collins
> it's okay to use the card after rolling the
> dice on ANY of the three rolls. Does anyone
> know for sure that that's not what's
> intended?
Nope, not for sure.
This is how we've always played. (For several years, MANY years ago, I used
to play with a group of intelligent buddies every Monday night.)
On your previous move you landed in jail...
First turn options after landing in jail:
-----------------------------------------
1) Pay the fine, roll the dice and move as required.
If you roll doubles, since you paid the $50.00 fine
PRIOR to rolling you ARE allowed to roll again.
2) Present the GOoJF card, roll the dice and move as
required. If you roll DOUBLES, since you presented the
GOoJF card to get out, PRIOR to rolling, you ARE
allowed to roll again.
3) Attempt to get out free by rolling doubles. If
you DO roll doubles, you must move as required without
paying the fine. However, as per the rules, here you
may NOT roll again. If you do not roll doubles you're
stuck in jail and your turn ends.
Second turn options after landing in jail:
------------------------------------------
Same as the first turn.
Third turn options after landing in jail...
-------------------------------------------
1) Pay the fine, roll the dice and move as required.
If you roll doubles, since you paid the $50.00 fine
PRIOR to rolling you ARE allowed to roll again.
2) Present the GOoJF card, roll the dice and move as
required. If you roll DOUBLES, since you presented the
GOoJF card to get out, prior to rolling, you ARE
allowed to roll again.
3) Attempt to get out free by rolling doubles. If
you DO roll doubles, you must move as required without
paying the fine. However, as per the rules, here you
may NOT roll again.
Unlike the first and second turn option, here if you DO NOT roll doubles on
this third turn, you MUST immediately pay the $50.00 fine (or present the
GOoJF card in lieu of the $50.00 payment) and get out of jail right now (using
the numbers on the die you just rolled) since you're not allowed to stay in
jail any longer. Either way, your turn would end.
Again, the original inquiry was whether one MUST use the GOoJF card here, on
this third turn, in lieu of payment, if they didn't have the $50.00 cash. The
way we played I believe we would have said yes. The Jail Warden would not
have allowed you to stay (it costs him money to keep you in jail!) and the
Bank would have been forced to honor it's own GOoJF card... so you would have
HAD to leave... even if you didn't want to.
Thus, on this turn if your dice roll landed you on someone else's hotel chain
and if you did not have the cash to pay, you'd be bankrupt to him/her! Your
obligation to the Bank concerning the jail fine was completed a moment ago.
If you didn't HAVE that GOoJF card in the first place, you'd be bankrupt to
the bank, not to the player with the hotel.
Interesting original question... thanks for asking it.
Ed Collins
The Midnight Skulker
> else's hotel chain and if you did not have the cash to pay, you'd be
> bankrupt to him/her! Your obligation to the Bank concerning the jail
> fine was completed a moment ago.
>
> If you didn't HAVE that GOoJF card in the first place, you'd be
> bankrupt to the bank, not to the player with the hotel.
>
> Interesting original question.
And much more significant than I originally thought. It is not the
viability of the moving player that makes it so, but the disposition
of his/her remaining assets: any mortagaged properties he/she owns.
Don Woods
> Again, the original inquiry was whether one MUST use the GOoJF card here,
> on this third turn, in lieu of payment, if they didn't have the $50.00
> cash. The way we played I believe we would have said yes.
Right. The original query was whether you were required to use the
GOoJF card if you had it and didn't have the cash. The early responses
said that not only were you not required to use it, but you were not
ALLOWED to use it after rolling the dice for the third time, whether or
not you had the cash. Most of the rest of the thread has been debating
this latter point.
Returning to the original question, consider the following variation.
Suppose I don't have the $50, and don't have a GOoJF card. On my third
turn in Jail I roll a 9, which would put me on New York Avenue and I'd
go bankrupt to player A. If I hadn't been in Jail (say, if I'd been
"just visiting"), I'd be required to move to New York, and if I could
not raise the required rent in full by making deals then any attempted
deals would be cancelled and my original assets would go to player A.
But in the position described, I can't reach New York in the first place
unless I do something to raise $50. Am I allowed to trade all of my
assets away for $51, pay $50 to get out of Jail, then go bankrupt and
give $1 to player A? Would it make any difference if I could raise the
$50 without making any deals, e.g. by mortgaging stuff?
Warren J. Dew
But more relevant to the current topic, the rules don't
say WHEN you use the GOoJF card. From what's written,
you might conclude that it's okay to use the card after
rolling the dice on ANY of the three rolls. Does anyone
know for sure that that's not what's intended?
Actually, I used to play Monopoly this way. Late in the game, the value of a
get out of jail free card can get to be much more than $50 if it can be used to
decide whether to move after you know the die roll.
I'm pretty sure the tournament rules don't allow it, though.
Warren J. Dew
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