German boardgames are more than racing and trading games (was Re: Wild Fire!!!)
Richard Hutnik
> "Jasper Phillips" <jas...@spock.peak.org> wrote in message
> news:9iignj$js2$1...@spock.peak.org...
>
> > Actually, while Germany doesn't make so many computer games, they are
> > a constant source of well done and fairly original board games. And
> > the original poster was right -- you wouldn't see games like Deer Hunter,
> > or most of the other derivative crap that fills shelves in the US.
> >
> > I personally would love to see German designers get into computer gaming.
>
> German board games -- yech! This is just MHO, of course, but I don't
> care for any of the massively hyped German games. They're all just
> diguised trading games or disguised multiplayer race games. Due to German
> laws, you can't have any real combat in a board game, which makes them (for
> me) dull. They remind me of the kindergarten scissors with the rounded
> tips.
> Censorship sucks, even in Germany.
PLEASE. Ok, I have to now go through my list of German games to state
that what you say is wrong. Sorry, yes there is a lack of "real
combat" but this in no way means the games lack competition. Yes, we
need 500 more games involving hexes and combat result tables to make
it oh so much better. And DON'T confuse the outer scoreboard with a
piece that moves with a race game.
Ok, here is a list of a few games of the German nature that make your
opinion just plain wrong:
- Euphrat and Tigress. Not an trading game. Empire building with
conflicts using a tile laying mechanism.
- Through the Desert. Multiplayer go. No trading.
- Flinke-Pinke. Simple, abstract stock market style game.
- Carcassone. Tile laying, build a map, lay units down. No race or
auction.
- Modern Art. Auction game.
- Tichu. Variant of the cardgame a**hole, with team scoring.
- Stichelm. Trick-taking game.
- Manatou. Indian hunting cardgame where you can kill opponent's
units.
- El Grande. A loosely themed game of placing influence in middle age
Spain.
- Riccochet Robot. A group puzzle game.
- Medieval Merchant. A game of building trade routes.
NONE of these are racing games and none are trading games. Multiple
ones are auction style games, which seems to be the prefered method of
conflict resolution in German style games. Just about all these are
German in origin. If I were to add other European games, I could
speak about the likes of some French and British designs which have
more conflict elements to them.
By the way, the "German laws" have to do with selling games to minors
with war themes. The bulk of what are considered "German style" games
are games that go well with non-gamers vs gamers and are good for
multiple age groups. I do have TWO wargames made by Germans: Steam
and Steel and Blitzkreig General. To go with your complaint of German
games you might as well blast the American game publishers also.
- Richard Hutnik
Thomas Ruschak
"Richard Hutnik" <richar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:37bc9e37.01071...@posting.google.com...
> PLEASE. Ok, I have to now go through my list of German games to state
> that what you say is wrong. Sorry, yes there is a lack of "real
> combat" but this in no way means the games lack competition. Yes, we
> need 500 more games involving hexes and combat result tables to make
> it oh so much better. And DON'T confuse the outer scoreboard with a
> piece that moves with a race game.
A race game is where all the players are trying to achieve the same goal
in the shortest possible time with minimal ability to interfere with the
other
player's progress. Many of these games are disguised race games. If you
can't materially affect the other player's progress, why not play solitaire?
> Ok, here is a list of a few games of the German nature that make your
> opinion just plain wrong:
> - Euphrat and Tigress. Not an trading game. Empire building with
> conflicts using a tile laying mechanism.
Wow... I can "attack" someone by laying a tile that inconveniences him?
Woweeeee... too intense. Most of these tile-laying games are really race
games anyway.
> - Through the Desert. Multiplayer go. No trading.
Why not just play Go?
> - Flinke-Pinke. Simple, abstract stock market style game.
Trading. Yawn.
> - Carcassone. Tile laying, build a map, lay units down. No race or
> auction.
OOh, more tile laying. Wow.
> - Modern Art. Auction game.
Auctions! Trading's less interesting sibling.
> - Tichu. Variant of the cardgame a**hole, with team scoring.
Don't know, don't want to know.
> - Stichelm. Trick-taking game.
> - Manatou. Indian hunting cardgame where you can kill opponent's
> units.
Card games. Why not just play bridge?
> - El Grande. A loosely themed game of placing influence in middle age
> Spain.
"Influence placing" -- there's an edge-of-your-seat thrillride.
> - Riccochet Robot. A group puzzle game.
Group puzzles. Are we asleep yet?
> - Medieval Merchant. A game of building trade routes.
ZZZzzzz.... *snort* Huh? What? Sorry, I dozed off.
> NONE of these are racing games and none are trading games. Multiple
> ones are auction style games, which seems to be the prefered method of
> conflict resolution in German style games.
My bad. I should have said disguised race games, disguised trading
games, or disguised auction games. (Not meaning anything derogatory
by the use of the word "disguised" here -- just that it's one of the basic
three themes with chrome ladled on top)
> Just about all these are
> German in origin. If I were to add other European games, I could
> speak about the likes of some French and British designs which have
> more conflict elements to them.
Would be more interesting, to me at least.
> By the way, the "German laws" have to do with selling games to minors
> with war themes. The bulk of what are considered "German style" games
> are games that go well with non-gamers vs gamers and are good for
> multiple age groups. I do have TWO wargames made by Germans: Steam
> and Steel and Blitzkreig General. To go with your complaint of German
> games you might as well blast the American game publishers also.
From what I've heard, putting real conflict in a German game is the
equivalent of an American film getting an "X" rating -- kiss of death.
Anyway, by all means play those games if you enjoy them... I just don't.
I've never insisted on being the world's target demographic. Certainly many
must find them enjoyable, given the amount of $$ flowing to Germany for
them over the last 5-10 years.
Tom
Robert Rossney
theme, as the players race to accumulate victory points before the game-turn
marker moves onto the last space.
Bob Rossney
r...@well.com
Nathan Sanders
> > - Euphrat and Tigress. Not an trading game. Empire building with
> > conflicts using a tile laying mechanism.
>
> Wow... I can "attack" someone by laying a tile that inconveniences him?
> Woweeeee... too intense. Most of these tile-laying games are really race
> games anyway.
Actually, an attack in T&E can be pretty damaging. Loss of a leader,
loss of followers, the breakup of a kingdom. Have you ever actually
played this game?
> > - Stichelm. Trick-taking game.
> > - Manatou. Indian hunting cardgame where you can kill opponent's
> > units.
>
> Card games. Why not just play bridge?
A similar question could be asked for any other type of game:
"War games. Why not just play Risk?"
"Computer games. Why not just play Tetris?"
"On-line RPGs. Why not just play Ultima Online?"
Such simplification only displays a lack of intelligence.
Nathan
======================================================================
san...@ling.ucsc.edu ***** Department of Linguistics
san...@alum.mit.edu *** University of California
http://ling.ucsc.edu/~sanders * Santa Cruz, California 95064
======================================================================
Jasper Phillips
Robert Rossney <r...@well.com> wrote:
>Indeed, Wagram and Jena-Aurstadt are both race games with a thinly pasted-on
>theme, as the players race to accumulate victory points before the game-turn
>marker moves onto the last space.
It's true that many of the German games have a "racing against yourself"
element and not enough interaction. But there are many that have excellent
direct conflict.
Ones I've played, off the top of my head: Vinci. Samurai. Lowenherz.
Tigris and Euphrates. Ursuppe.
-Jasper
Kevin J. Maroney
> A race game is where all the players are trying to achieve the same goal
>in the shortest possible time with minimal ability to interfere with the
>other player's progress. Many of these games are disguised race games. If you
>can't materially affect the other player's progress, why not play solitaire?
If you aren't a troll, you're doing a damn good imitation of one. You
are pontificating at high volume about games you have obviously never
seen, never played, and know nothing about. If you wish to actually
converse about games, then please start; if you wish only to
demonstrate your ignorance, please do it in a newsgroup where
ignorance is a virtue.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | Unplugged Games | kmar...@ungames.com
Games are my entire waking life
angiolillo
> opinion just plain wrong:
I'd add Das Amulet. Another fine auction game with no race and no trading at all.
Andrea
Blackberry
Well, it's fair to say that the game in Vinci and Ursuppe (not having played the
others) is in a race on the victory point track; the central board is only the
vehicle by which you figure out how far you go on the race track. This isn't to
discount the fun of these games, but it's all in the victory points. At the end
of the game, it doesn't matter who has what in the center of the board or how it
got there; all that matters is the point total.
--------------------
"It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet."
-- Frankie Goes to Hollywood
Brian -- le...@NOnwlinkSPAM.com -- remove "NOSPAM"
Blackberry
boardgames feel more like competitive solitaire; they just don't thrill me.
On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:48:18 -0500, "Thomas wrote:
>
>[...]
>> Ok, here is a list of a few games of the German nature that make your
>> opinion just plain wrong:
>> - Euphrat and Tigress. Not an trading game. Empire building with
>> conflicts using a tile laying mechanism.
>
> Wow... I can "attack" someone by laying a tile that inconveniences him?
>Woweeeee... too intense. Most of these tile-laying games are really race
>games anyway.
D'r Af is a tile-laying race game in which you can seriously interfere with
other players, so that breaks your mold.
Civilization is one of the classic German-style imports; it has trading,
cooperation, conflict, and interference all in equal amounts.
>> - Tichu. Variant of the cardgame a**hole, with team scoring.
How many different variants do we need? Do these minor variations actually make
it that much better/different? (This is not directed at Thomas.)
>> - Stichelm. Trick-taking game.
>> - Manatou. Indian hunting cardgame where you can kill opponent's
>> units.
>
> Card games. Why not just play bridge?
Just because a game uses cards (or even tricks) doesn't mean it's like Bridge
and certainly doesn't mean it can't be more fun than Bridge. How are Falling,
Chrononauts, Great Dalmuti, Egyptian Ratscrew, Dragonmaster, and Aquarius like
Bridge?
>> - El Grande. A loosely themed game of placing influence in middle age
>> Spain.
>
> "Influence placing" -- there's an edge-of-your-seat thrillride.
Do you like Europa 1945-2030? Do you find it challenging? It's equal parts
cooperation and competition as well. If the only put-off is the fact that your
meeples represent political influence, then pretend it's an all-out war and
you're placing invasion forces.
>> - Medieval Merchant. A game of building trade routes.
>
> ZZZzzzz.... *snort* Huh? What? Sorry, I dozed off.
Empire Builder is not a "German" game and yet it's a classic of the trade route
building genre.
Anthony C Kam
Blackberry <le...@NOnwlinkSPAM.com> wrote:
>>
>>It's true that many of the German games have a "racing against yourself"
>>element and not enough interaction. But there are many that have excellent
>>direct conflict.
>>
>>Ones I've played, off the top of my head: Vinci. Samurai. Lowenherz.
>>Tigris and Euphrates. Ursuppe.
>
>Well, it's fair to say that the game in Vinci and Ursuppe (not having
>played the others) is in a race on the victory point track; the central
>board is only the vehicle by which you figure out how far you go on the
>race track. This isn't to discount the fun of these games, but it's
>all in the victory points. At the end of the game, it doesn't matter
>who has what in the center of the board or how it got there; all that
>matters is the point total.
I also agree Vinci is a race game. (I havent played Ursuppe.) However,
it is a race game in which direct conflict is prominent. If anything,
Vinci has too much direct conflict, leading to its well known kingmaker
problem.
If the original (troll-like) poster said most german games are race
games, a genre which he doesnt like, then I dont share his opinion. But
he said most german games are race games where there is minimum player
interaction, and that is a claim which is factually wrong (IMHO).
Curious aside: I was reading "Shogi for beginners" by John Fairbairn,
and somewhere in the book he said shogi is a race game (race to
checkmate opponent before you get checkmated) as much as a wargame,
because very often the two kings "castle" in different areas of the
board. I wonder if the original poster would consider shogi inferior to
western chess for this reason.
antkam
Richard Hutnik
> A race game is where all the players are trying to achieve the same goal
> in the shortest possible time with minimal ability to interfere with the
> other
> player's progress. Many of these games are disguised race games. If you
> can't materially affect the other player's progress, why not play solitaire?
below have ways to screw with your opponent.
> > Ok, here is a list of a few games of the German nature that make your
> > opinion just plain wrong:
> > - Euphrat and Tigress. Not an trading game. Empire building with
> > conflicts using a tile laying mechanism.
>
> Wow... I can "attack" someone by laying a tile that inconveniences him?
> Woweeeee... too intense. Most of these tile-laying games are really race
> games anyway.
Inconveniences? No, more like totally devistates their position by
involking a conflict, resulting in them losing a ton of victory points
as their pieces get knocked off the board.
> > - Through the Desert. Multiplayer go. No trading.
> Why not just play Go?
Does Go handle more than 2? No. That is why. It also provides
more ways to score and win, with multiple victory conditions.
> > - Flinke-Pinke. Simple, abstract stock market style game.
> Trading. Yawn.
PLEASE. TRADING? There is no trading in that game, just playing
tiles to affect the scoring of other players and speculating how the
scoring will come out. Trading, by its nature, involves two or more
people making deals to exchange resources. Settlers of Catan involves
trading, Flike-Pinke doesn't.
> > - Carcassone. Tile laying, build a map, lay units down. No race or
> > auction.
> OOh, more tile laying. Wow.
Building and speculating on final outcomes. The pieces happen to
be tiles, so what.
> > - Modern Art. Auction game.
> Auctions! Trading's less interesting sibling.
Auction, a version of conflict when you get others to expend
resources in order to win other resources.
> > - Tichu. Variant of the cardgame a**hole, with team scoring.
> Don't know, don't want to know.
a**hole is an american version of a chinese playing card game.
Another version of this is "The Great Dalmuti".
> > - Stichelm. Trick-taking game.
> > - Manatou. Indian hunting cardgame where you can kill opponent's
> > units.
> Card games. Why not just play bridge?
Conflict games? Why not just play Panzer General? Needless to
say, both these games are very different. Cards as a medium to play
the game. Unfortunately, you aren't grasping this concept. These two
games share almost NOTHING in common with each other.
> > - El Grande. A loosely themed game of placing influence in middle age
> > Spain.
> "Influence placing" -- there's an edge-of-your-seat thrillride.
Cause pieces to get removed from the board. Does that make it more
exciting? You can do that in El Grande also.
> > - Riccochet Robot. A group puzzle game.
> Group puzzles. Are we asleep yet?
Sorry, all games can't be Quake. Why not forget all about strategy
games and play a nice First Person Shooter. Not thinking there at
all.
> > - Medieval Merchant. A game of building trade routes.
> ZZZzzzz.... *snort* Huh? What? Sorry, I dozed off.
Of course, I should of mentioned winning key cities and screwing
your opponent over. Also, invading their cities to cut down on their
resources.
> > NONE of these are racing games and none are trading games. Multiple
> > ones are auction style games, which seems to be the prefered method of
> > conflict resolution in German style games.
>
> My bad. I should have said disguised race games, disguised trading
> games, or disguised auction games. (Not meaning anything derogatory
> by the use of the word "disguised" here -- just that it's one of the basic
> three themes with chrome ladled on top)
Yeah, you should have. I could of then rolled out a list of other
games that aren't any of these things.
> > Just about all these are
> > German in origin. If I were to add other European games, I could
> > speak about the likes of some French and British designs which have
> > more conflict elements to them.
>
> Would be more interesting, to me at least.
And you assume that because a game is from Germany it sucks? Talk
about bigotted. Off the top of my head, I can name some Eurostyle
games that involve more conflict out of Europe that may or may not be
from Germany:
- Condoterrie. Card driven combat to fight over cities in Italy.
- Anno 1452. Empire building, involving war, in midaeval Germany.
- Serinessima. Build trade routes to get money to build a navy to
crush your opponent and steal their trade routes.
- Empires of the Ancient World. Card driven combat system to fight
over regions.
- Way out West. Cowboys fighting over territory in the old West.
- Battleline. 2 player cardgame where you fight over a front.
> From what I've heard, putting real conflict in a German game is the
> equivalent of an American film getting an "X" rating -- kiss of death.
Well, due to WW2, there are skiddish about having overt war, but
there are some games out there that handle it in an abstract sort of
way.
> Anyway, by all means play those games if you enjoy them... I just don't.
> I've never insisted on being the world's target demographic. Certainly many
> must find them enjoyable, given the amount of $$ flowing to Germany for
> them over the last 5-10 years.
Low complexity rules, some amount of strategic thinking, and
playable in under two hours (all these make them appealing to
non-gamers). These are major reasons why they have caught on. This
is why they are of interest to me, and I have a bunch of them.
- Richard
Stefanie Kethers
[...]
> Ok, here is a list of a few games of the German nature that make your
> opinion just plain wrong:
> - Euphrat and Tigress. Not an trading game. Empire building with
> conflicts using a tile laying mechanism.
> - Through the Desert. Multiplayer go. No trading.
> - Flinke-Pinke. Simple, abstract stock market style game.
> - Carcassone. Tile laying, build a map, lay units down. No race or
> auction.
> - Modern Art. Auction game.
> - Tichu. Variant of the cardgame a**hole, with team scoring.
> - Stichelm. Trick-taking game.
> - Manatou. Indian hunting cardgame where you can kill opponent's
> units.
> - El Grande. A loosely themed game of placing influence in middle age
> Spain.
> - Riccochet Robot. A group puzzle game.
> - Medieval Merchant. A game of building trade routes.
>
I would like to add Verraeter and Meuterer, as well as Ohne Furcht und
Adel, to your list.
[..]
Cheers,
Stefanie
Chris Camfield
>Indeed, Wagram and Jena-Aurstadt are both race games with a thinly pasted-on
>theme, as the players race to accumulate victory points before the game-turn
>marker moves onto the last space.
Wouldn't that make a lot of wargames "races for victory points"? Is
this really a valid categorization?
Chris
Thomas Ruschak
"Nathan Sanders" <san...@ling.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.SUN.3.91.101071...@ling.ucsc.edu...
> On Mon, 16 Jul 2001, Thomas Ruschak wrote:
>
> > > - Euphrat and Tigress. Not an trading game. Empire building with
> > > conflicts using a tile laying mechanism.
> >
> > Wow... I can "attack" someone by laying a tile that inconveniences
him?
> > Woweeeee... too intense. Most of these tile-laying games are really
race
> > games anyway.
>
> Actually, an attack in T&E can be pretty damaging. Loss of a leader,
> loss of followers, the breakup of a kingdom. Have you ever actually
> played this game?
Nope. After many dull German games, I've implemented the simple
"No German Games" rule. It's been effective in avoiding dull games such
as Settlers, that art auction one which is so dull I don't even remember
the title, etc.
> > > - Stichelm. Trick-taking game.
> > > - Manatou. Indian hunting cardgame where you can kill opponent's
> > > units.
> >
> > Card games. Why not just play bridge?
>
> A similar question could be asked for any other type of game:
>
> "War games. Why not just play Risk?"
> "Computer games. Why not just play Tetris?"
> "On-line RPGs. Why not just play Ultima Online?"
>
> Such simplification only displays a lack of intelligence.
Thanks for the insult... too hard to argue, huh? Much simpler
to name-call, right? Perhaps I should say that that style of
argument only displays a lack of intelligence?
My point was that I don't see the point in spending money
for a game that is simply a re-hash of a card game that I could
play for free. Especially since most games of that type aren't
that much fun the first time around.
Tom
David desJardins
>>> Card games. Why not just play bridge?
Thomas Ruschak <rus...@wintek.com> writes:
> My point was that I don't see the point in spending money for a game
> that is simply a re-hash of a card game that I could play for free.
In that case, your "point" is based on a false premise. Most commercial
card games are nothing like bridge. They aren't a "rehash", at all.
David desJardins
Thomas Ruschak
"Richard Hutnik" <richar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:37bc9e37.01071...@posting.google.com...
> > > conflicts using a tile laying mechanism.
> >
> > Wow... I can "attack" someone by laying a tile that inconveniences
him?
> > Woweeeee... too intense. Most of these tile-laying games are really
race
> > games anyway.
> Inconveniences? No, more like totally devistates their position by
> involking a conflict, resulting in them losing a ton of victory points
> as their pieces get knocked off the board.
Sorry. I'm glad you enjoy it, but playing a tile that blocks someone
just doesn't catch my interest. Probably just me, of course. You do
seem a bit defensive about this, though. Have you perhaps had this
argument before with others? I'd suspect so.
> > > - Through the Desert. Multiplayer go. No trading.
> > Why not just play Go?
> Does Go handle more than 2? No. That is why. It also provides
> more ways to score and win, with multiple victory conditions.
Yes, but if it's basically the same game, why not just play the
classic instead of a German knock-off? True Go has been
perfected over hundreds of years.
> > > - Flinke-Pinke. Simple, abstract stock market style game.
> > Trading. Yawn.
> PLEASE. TRADING? There is no trading in that game, just playing
> tiles to affect the scoring of other players and speculating how the
> scoring will come out. Trading, by its nature, involves two or more
> people making deals to exchange resources. Settlers of Catan involves
> trading, Flike-Pinke doesn't.
Oh, excuse me.. couldn't keep the dull games straight. You said
"stock market", which implied trading to me. So, it's another tile-
playing game instead, huh? I think we've already established our
positions on those. (And I realize the title's German, but really,
don't you feel a bit silly coming into a group and asking "How about
a game of Flike-Pinke!" ???)
>
> > > - Carcassone. Tile laying, build a map, lay units down. No race or
> > > auction.
> > OOh, more tile laying. Wow.
> Building and speculating on final outcomes. The pieces happen to
> be tiles, so what.
Just too indirect for me. What the hell's wrong with direct
conflict in a game? Surely players of German games are
mature enough to handle that, right?
> > > - Modern Art. Auction game.
> > Auctions! Trading's less interesting sibling.
> Auction, a version of conflict when you get others to expend
> resources in order to win other resources.
Right. Just doesn't excite me. No matter how an auction
game's chrome is arranged, it's still an auction game.
> > > - Tichu. Variant of the cardgame a**hole, with team scoring.
> > Don't know, don't want to know.
> a**hole is an american version of a chinese playing card game.
> Another version of this is "The Great Dalmuti".
Played that, once. Don't remember much about it. How
many versions do there need to be, anyway? How many times
do you want to buy the same game in different clothes? That's
one of my gripes with German games .. seems like they take an
old game and re-chrome it and merrily make $$ off it.
> > > - Stichelm. Trick-taking game.
> > > - Manatou. Indian hunting cardgame where you can kill opponent's
> > > units.
> > Card games. Why not just play bridge?
> Conflict games? Why not just play Panzer General? Needless to
> say, both these games are very different. Cards as a medium to play
> the game. Unfortunately, you aren't grasping this concept. These two
> games share almost NOTHING in common with each other.
How about this then -- Card games rarely have sufficient depth
to interest me. How many different strategies can you use in these
games, anyway?
> [more and more and more deleted]
Look, if you like German games, that's fine. I guess I'm just
too straightforward to enjoy games as indirect as these. What's
next, Kitten Wars? Where the players try to subtly influence a
Kitten into sitting on a cushion of their color? Maybe slug racing?
Dull, dull, dull.
> And you assume that because a game is from Germany it sucks? Talk
> about bigotted.
That's a little pretentious, don't you think? This is gaming, not
race relations or the fate of the world. Besides, the whole reason
I've played any German games at all is my "Anything once" rule. :-)
I'll at least try any game once, which hardly seems like a bigoted
policy.
> > From what I've heard, putting real conflict in a German game is the
> > equivalent of an American film getting an "X" rating -- kiss of death.
> Well, due to WW2, there are skiddish about having overt war, but
> there are some games out there that handle it in an abstract sort of
> way.
That's one of the things that bothers me. I guess I'm philisophically
opposed to the idea of censorship, whether explicit or implicit. I
don't believe that hiding from conflict makes conflict vanish, and
hiding the CONCEPT of conflict is even sillier.
> > Anyway, by all means play those games if you enjoy them... I just
don't.
> > I've never insisted on being the world's target demographic. Certainly
many
> > must find them enjoyable, given the amount of $$ flowing to Germany for
> > them over the last 5-10 years.
> Low complexity rules, some amount of strategic thinking, and
> playable in under two hours (all these make them appealing to
> non-gamers). These are major reasons why they have caught on. This
> is why they are of interest to me, and I have a bunch of them.
Right... simple and fast, but not deep. I'd rather have a deep game.
You likely have a bunch of them because individually they're not
interesting enough to play more than once every 3-4 months, right?
Still, given the number of titles you've written about, you must
have a cool games closet, or do they get a room of their own? :-)
Tom
Robert Rossney
news:3b53c4a0...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
Irony is really very difficult to get across in this medium.
Bob Rossney
r...@well.com
Alan Kwan
<san...@ling.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>Actually, an attack in T&E can be pretty damaging. Loss of a leader,
>loss of followers, the breakup of a kingdom.
That's most definitely true. It's even worse if the board is crowded
enough, so that I can't find a spot to place my leader back on the
board without having it kicked away again within one turn.
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / ta...@notmenetvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core video game reviews)
Tarot Games Hong Kong: http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot/com
(please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address)
The Maverick
Not to mention that he probably had to buy a deck of cards at some point
to play that "free" card game... ;-)
the Mav
--
"Never give up -- never surrender!" Commander Peter Quincy Taggart
Alan Kwan
<rus...@wintek.com> wrote:
>
>"Richard Hutnik" <richar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:37bc9e37.01071...@posting.google.com...
>> > > - Euphrat and Tigress. Not an trading game. Empire building with
>> > > conflicts using a tile laying mechanism.
>> >
>> > Wow... I can "attack" someone by laying a tile that inconveniences
>him?
>> > Woweeeee... too intense. Most of these tile-laying games are really
>race
>> > games anyway.
>> Inconveniences? No, more like totally devistates their position by
>> involking a conflict, resulting in them losing a ton of victory points
>> as their pieces get knocked off the board.
>
> Sorry. I'm glad you enjoy it, but playing a tile that blocks someone
>just doesn't catch my interest. Probably just me, of course. You do
>seem a bit defensive about this, though. Have you perhaps had this
>argument before with others? I'd suspect so.
Thomas, it is clear that you have not played the game and know nothing
about it. When you play a tile and start a conflict, you don't
"block" someone. The loser of the conflict gets his leader removed
from the board along with a bunch of his tiles, and the winner gets a
bunch of victory points. It's rather bloody, in an abstract way.
You can find a detailed description at Chris Lawson's page:
http://freespace.virgin.net/chris.lawson/rk/e-t/index.htm
>(And I realize the title's German, but really,
>don't you feel a bit silly coming into a group and asking "How about
>a game of Flike-Pinke!" ???)
No, you say it in German: "Spielen wir Flinke-Pinke?" (Is that
correct? I've been studying German for only a few hours.)
As a more or less multi-language person, I can't help thinking that
people who laugh at foreign language words which sound strange in the
(only?) language they know are somewhat ignorant, uneducated, and
rude.
>> > > - Carcassone. Tile laying, build a map, lay units down. No race or
>> > > auction.
>> > OOh, more tile laying. Wow.
>> Building and speculating on final outcomes. The pieces happen to
>> be tiles, so what.
>
> Just too indirect for me. What the hell's wrong with direct
>conflict in a game? Surely players of German games are
>mature enough to handle that, right?
The conflicts in Carcassonne can get pretty mean. Several players can
be happily sharing a region, but then someone can add a meeple to stop
the other players from scoring for the region.
>> > > - Modern Art. Auction game.
>> > Auctions! Trading's less interesting sibling.
>> Auction, a version of conflict when you get others to expend
>> resources in order to win other resources.
>
> Right. Just doesn't excite me. No matter how an auction
>game's chrome is arranged, it's still an auction game.
Have you ever played one?
>> > > - Tichu. Variant of the cardgame a**hole, with team scoring.
>> > Don't know, don't want to know.
>> a**hole is an american version of a chinese playing card game.
>> Another version of this is "The Great Dalmuti".
>
> Played that, once. Don't remember much about it. How
>many versions do there need to be, anyway? How many times
>do you want to buy the same game in different clothes? That's
>one of my gripes with German games .. seems like they take an
>old game and re-chrome it and merrily make $$ off it.
That's your gripe with German games? So you're perfectly happy with
whatever endless variety there is in computer games and American
wargames?
>> > > - Stichelm. Trick-taking game.
>> > > - Manatou. Indian hunting cardgame where you can kill opponent's
>> > > units.
>> > Card games. Why not just play bridge?
>> Conflict games? Why not just play Panzer General? Needless to
>> say, both these games are very different. Cards as a medium to play
>> the game. Unfortunately, you aren't grasping this concept. These two
>> games share almost NOTHING in common with each other.
>
> How about this then -- Card games rarely have sufficient depth
>to interest me. How many different strategies can you use in these
>games, anyway?
I would voice the very same complaint against real-time strategy
games, first-person shootes, and orthodox wargames.
>> [more and more and more deleted]
>
> Look, if you like German games, that's fine. I guess I'm just
>too straightforward to enjoy games as indirect as these.
A more precise word than "straightforward" should be "simple-minded".
> That's one of the things that bothers me. I guess I'm philisophically
>opposed to the idea of censorship, whether explicit or implicit. I
>don't believe that hiding from conflict makes conflict vanish, and
>hiding the CONCEPT of conflict is even sillier.
Even more sillier is putting (or asking for) blood and violence in
everything. "Conflicts" in real life don't necessarily invlove
violence. That is what incited censorship in the first place:
gratuitous displays of violence for the sake of violence, instead of
being a needed expression for the good of the work overall.
Really, it's the horny teenage kids who ask for the blood. Truly
mature adults know how to handle and interpret the expression, and are
not excited by it.
Jasper Phillips
Blackberry <le...@NOnwlinkSPAM.com> wrote:
>On 16 Jul 2001 13:30:27 -0700, jas...@spock.peak.org wrote:
>>
>>In article <9ivgjm$9...@dispatch.concentric.net>,
>>Robert Rossney <r...@well.com> wrote:
>>>Indeed, Wagram and Jena-Aurstadt are both race games with a thinly pasted-on
>>>theme, as the players race to accumulate victory points before the game-turn
>>>marker moves onto the last space.
>>
>>It's true that many of the German games have a "racing against yourself"
>>element and not enough interaction. But there are many that have excellent
>>direct conflict.
>>
>>Ones I've played, off the top of my head: Vinci. Samurai. Lowenherz.
>>Tigris and Euphrates. Ursuppe.
>
>Well, it's fair to say that the game in Vinci and Ursuppe (not having played the
>others) is in a race on the victory point track; the central board is only the
>vehicle by which you figure out how far you go on the race track. This isn't to
>discount the fun of these games, but it's all in the victory points. At the end
>of the game, it doesn't matter who has what in the center of the board or how it
>got there; all that matters is the point total.
And so any game where you keep score is a racing game? That's certainly
not my definition. Each to his own, I guess.
-Jasper
Nathan Sanders
> Nope. After many dull German games, I've implemented the simple
> "No German Games" rule. It's been effective in avoiding dull games such
> as Settlers, that art auction one which is so dull I don't even remember
> the title, etc.
I implemented a similar rule for most computer games. From Doom to Alpha
Centauri, from Ultima Online to the beta test of Fallen Age, they're all
the same thing over and over: shoot or punch everything you can, put
everything else into storage. *Yawn*
> My point was that I don't see the point in spending money
> for a game that is simply a re-hash of a card game that I could
> play for free. Especially since most games of that type aren't
> that much fun the first time around.
Exactly how I feel about computer games, since Doom is freely available
nowadays...all the rest are just expensive re-hashes...
Tobias Bende
> > > From what I've heard, putting real conflict in a German game is the
> > > equivalent of an American film getting an "X" rating -- kiss of death.
> > Well, due to WW2, there are skiddish about having overt war, but
> > there are some games out there that handle it in an abstract sort of
> > way.
>
> That's one of the things that bothers me. I guess I'm philisophically
> opposed to the idea of censorship, whether explicit or implicit. I
> don't believe that hiding from conflict makes conflict vanish, and
> hiding the CONCEPT of conflict is even sillier.
You yourself said that the same applies to American movies. But there the
concept of sex is hidden instead of the concept of conflict. Seems a lot
stranger in my opinion.
Tobias
David Fontes
> Nope. After many dull German games, I've implemented the simple
> "No German Games" rule. It's been effective in avoiding dull games such
> as Settlers, that art auction one which is so dull I don't even remember
> the title, etc.
And in a separate message, said troll wrote:
> I'll at least try any game once, which hardly seems like a bigoted
> policy.
Ah yes. Complete inconsistency. Obviously this troll has not yet perfected
the art.
-David
Chris Camfield
True. Smileys help, in my opinion, even if it is like adding "that
was a joke, son" at the end of the message!
Chris
Geenius at Wrok
--
"There is no greater joy for me than to find, on self-examination,
that I am true to myself." -- Mencius
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Live with honor, endure with grace "I notice you have a cloud of doom.
Keith Ammann is gee...@enteract.com I must admit it makes you seem
www.enteract.com/~geenius * Lun Yu 2:24 dangerous and sexy."
Glenn Kuntz
Geenius at Wrok <gee...@enteract.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.21.010717...@shell-3.enteract.com...
> Come on, folks. Don't feed the troll.
I blame Richard for dragging the silly thing in here.
Dogpile on Richard! :-P
JB
<sarcasm mode on>
Now this whole threads got me so confused. Is a game of Chess merely a
"trading"game, since we're just exchanging pieces? No wait - it's a "race"
game to see who can capture the king first! No no no - it's merely a
"repackaged" version of a much earlier game. And I just realized - I'm
playing this game on TILES! Yikes! Plus now I'm going to feel silly when I
say "en passant". Thank goodness at least that it's French, and not German.
It's all too much for me, I'm developing a desire to play Go on my Axis &
Allies board 8-)
<sarcasm mode off>
"Geenius at Wrok" <gee...@enteract.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.21.010717...@shell-3.enteract.com...
Kevin J. Maroney
>I blame Richard for dragging the silly thing in here.
Actually, so do I. I hadn't noticed initially that Richard had
crossposted the thread. Stupid thing of Richard to do.
Ashwin Patil
just curious, I will not lash out at you. Are you a wargamer purist?
"Thomas Ruschak" <rus...@wintek.com> wrote in message
news:tl7heml...@corp.supernews.com...
>
Aaron D. Fuegi
: >> - Tichu. Variant of the cardgame a**hole, with team scoring.
: How many different variants do we need? Do these minor variations actually make
: it that much better/different? (This is not directed at Thomas.)
Suffice it to say, YES!!!!!! The single biggest difference is that
it is a true-partnership game (like Bridge) but there are many others as well,
all radical improvements in my opinion. Great Dalmutti is a fun game but
Tichu, in terms of rewarding skillful play, is far superior to any of the
others in this group, really not even in the same class IMHO.
I learned Tichu in June of last year and since then have played over
150 games of it (and unlike some of the other similar games it isn't that
short - around 1-2 hours). It has become so popular here that recently friends
of mine ordered some 60 decks. We are just about to place another order
which will probably again be of around that number. In several different
groups I play with, there have at times been 12 players with lots of games
to choose from and all 12 were playing 3 games of Tichu (it is exclusively
a 4 player partnership game in its main version).
Highly recommended! Rules location is below and it can be played with
a regular deck of cards and 4 marked up Jokers.
http://scv.bu.edu/~aarondf/Games/Tichu.html
: Brian -- le...@NOnwlinkSPAM.com -- remove "NOSPAM"
Aaron
aar...@bu.edu
http://www.lasthomelyhouse.com/ (the Last Homely House)
Jae
>in the shortest possible time with minimal ability to interfere with the
>other
>player's progress. Many of these games are disguised race games. If you
>can't materially affect the other player's progress, why not play solitaire?
<snip>
> From what I've heard, putting real conflict in a German game is the
>equivalent of an American film getting an "X" rating -- kiss of death.
>Tom
So, if I understand correctly, your main beef is that there aren't any conflict
games with "teeth", so to speak, coming from Germany.
Well, if I may offer a suggestion, Magalon could be coined a "race game" by your
definition, but there is clearly an aggressive conflict element. While you
cannot eliminate your opponent, you can AGGRESSIVELY deter them. Another good
example is flying carpet where you can effectively cripple your opponent by
smashing them into a pit they cannot ascend from.
If, by conflict and war, you specifically want tanks and soldiers, well then you
may be out of luck since even american companies in general try to shun that
(save Risk, which is considered a bastard game by many GAMERS(TM) not including
myself...I happen to love Risk).
Thomas Ruschak
"Alan Kwan" <ta...@notmenetvigator.com> wrote in message
news:3b53dce3...@news.netvigator.com...
> Thomas, it is clear that you have not played the game and know nothing
> about it.
Hmm. Which part of "No German Games" didn't you
understand? I've played 5-6 German games, and that was
more than enough, thanks.
> As a more or less multi-language person, I can't help thinking that
> people who laugh at foreign language words which sound strange in the
> (only?) language they know are somewhat ignorant, uneducated, and
> rude.
Is it as ignorant and rude as insulting strangers in a newsgroup?
> The conflicts in Carcassonne can get pretty mean. Several players can
> be happily sharing a region, but then someone can add a meeple to stop
> the other players from scoring for the region.
Heh.. "Add a meeple" .... You actually admit to playing this game?
Look out! He's going to add a meeple! Heh. Do you have to have
time-outs when you all get too excited? :-)
> > Right. Just doesn't excite me. No matter how an auction
> >game's chrome is arranged, it's still an auction game.
>
> Have you ever played one?
Yup. Played Modern Art, once, bored me to tears.
> > Played that, once. Don't remember much about it. How
> >many versions do there need to be, anyway? How many times
> >do you want to buy the same game in different clothes? That's
> >one of my gripes with German games .. seems like they take an
> >old game and re-chrome it and merrily make $$ off it.
>
> That's your gripe with German games? So you're perfectly happy with
> whatever endless variety there is in computer games and American
> wargames?
At least the subjects of American wargames have some intrinsic
interest. German games are usually so abstract as to lack all connection
to the real world. (Settlers springs to mind)
> > How about this then -- Card games rarely have sufficient depth
> >to interest me. How many different strategies can you use in these
> >games, anyway?
>
> I would voice the very same complaint against real-time strategy
> games, first-person shootes, and orthodox wargames.
I'd agree with you on all but the last. I don't play RTS's and only
FPS's when I'm in the mood for mindless action. However, most good
wargames have a wide variety of viable strategies and a fair amount of
depth.
> > Look, if you like German games, that's fine. I guess I'm just
> >too straightforward to enjoy games as indirect as these.
>
> A more precise word than "straightforward" should be "simple-minded".
Are we up to the name-calling stage then? How about I say you're
too ill-read or simple-minded to be able to enjoy a game with a historical
subject? Your turn.
> > That's one of the things that bothers me. I guess I'm
philisophically
> >opposed to the idea of censorship, whether explicit or implicit. I
> >don't believe that hiding from conflict makes conflict vanish, and
> >hiding the CONCEPT of conflict is even sillier.
>
> Even more sillier is putting (or asking for) blood and violence in
> everything. "Conflicts" in real life don't necessarily invlove
> violence. That is what incited censorship in the first place:
> gratuitous displays of violence for the sake of violence, instead of
> being a needed expression for the good of the work overall.
I see. So you approve of censorship?? Ends justifying those
means again? Conflict in life often does involve violence, or
the ultimate threat of violence. Hiding from it doesn't make it any
nicer. I take it you don't read history, or even a newspaper?
> Really, it's the horny teenage kids who ask for the blood. Truly
> mature adults know how to handle and interpret the expression, and are
> not excited by it.
Nice job there, demonizing the opposition. Just finish your
Debate 101 class? I could similarly say that only the whiny little
babies can't handle any real conflict, but that'd be dropping
down to your level.
Tom
Thomas Ruschak
"Tobias Bende" <f96...@dd.chalmers.se> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.010717...@maeglin.dd.chalmers.se...
I more than agree, Tobias. I think the entire treatment of sex in
American culture is silly and more than a little sick. I'm against
censorship in all forms. "Protecting people from themselves" is
futile and inneffective.
Tom
Thomas Ruschak
"Geenius at Wrok" <gee...@enteract.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.21.010717...@shell-3.enteract.com...
I've been around here since the group was formed.
How about you? If you don't like contrary opinions,
I suggest you hide your head in the sand.
Tom
Thomas Ruschak
"Nathan Sanders" <san...@ling.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.SUN.3.91.101071...@ling.ucsc.edu...
>
> > Nope. After many dull German games, I've implemented the simple
> > "No German Games" rule. It's been effective in avoiding dull games such
> > as Settlers, that art auction one which is so dull I don't even remember
> > the title, etc.
>
> I implemented a similar rule for most computer games. From Doom to Alpha
> Centauri, from Ultima Online to the beta test of Fallen Age, they're all
> the same thing over and over: shoot or punch everything you can, put
> everything else into storage. *Yawn*
>
> > My point was that I don't see the point in spending money
> > for a game that is simply a re-hash of a card game that I could
> > play for free. Especially since most games of that type aren't
> > that much fun the first time around.
>
> Exactly how I feel about computer games, since Doom is freely available
> nowadays...all the rest are just expensive re-hashes...
That's true... it'd be nice to see a little more variety, but the $$
involved in a modern game militate against it. That's why I enjoy
buying games from small publishers. For instance, try King of Dragon
Pass, from A-Sharp. It's an interesting game. It doesn't shy away
from including conflict, but that's not the centerpiece of the game.
It came out last year, and was a breath of fresh air in the game scene.
So, the moral of the story is, support small publishers -- they're
the only place you'll get much that's original.
Tom
Thomas Ruschak
"David Fontes" <sp...@mmiusa.com> wrote in message
news:dKU47.8967$OY6.1...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
Not quite sure how you arrived at the conclusion that
insult is the best method of winning a discussion, but you're
wrong. It only makes you look like a fool.
Now, to address the point you raised (which is what
adults do in discussions), there is no contradiction. I make
my dislike for German games clear to those I play with. If
the group really wants to play one, however, I'll at least
play it once. Is that so hard to understand?
Tom
Thomas Ruschak
"Ashwin Patil" <ashwin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vPZ47.40328$C81.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> What are some of the board games you like, and why do you like them? I'm
> just curious, I will not lash out at you. Are you a wargamer purist?
Well, to some degree, I guess. I enjoy a lot of the old wargame
classics (Squad Leader/ASL, Russian Campaign, etc), as well as
the new classics (Enemy at the Gates, etc) I enjoy simpler wargames
such as Borderlands (the old EON classic) I'll occaisionally play a
Cheapass game for the humor (Witch Trial being my favorite), but
they generally lack much depth -- after 1 or two plays the best
strategy is obvious to all and winning is a matter of chance. As a
rule I enjoy longer games rather than shorter... Civilization (the AH
version) is a lot of fun on an afternoon.
I don't generally care for grossly non-realistic games or games
that purport to be about one thing and aren't. As an example, I
really don't care for the 18xx games. I've played a couple and
watched more. One thing that annoys me about them (other than
the whole tile-laying-as-a-substitute-for-aggression thing :-) is
that they're not really about railroads at all. Track built in those
supposed "railroad games" resembles real railroads as much as
I resemble Arnold Schwartzenegger (that is, not at all :-) Just
me, of course, lots of people love them for the stock manipulation
aspect.
BTW, thanks Aswin for being civil. Many people in this
group are much less than polite when someone doesn't agree
with them.
Tom
Thomas Ruschak
"Jae" <bagherra@my*no*-*spam*deja.com> wrote in message
news:fp%47.22565$Kf3.2...@www.newsranger.com...
> So, if I understand correctly, your main beef is that there aren't any
conflict
> games with "teeth", so to speak, coming from Germany.
Exactly right!
> Well, if I may offer a suggestion, Magalon could be coined a "race game"
by your
> definition, but there is clearly an aggressive conflict element. While
you
> cannot eliminate your opponent, you can AGGRESSIVELY deter them. Another
good
> example is flying carpet where you can effectively cripple your opponent
by
> smashing them into a pit they cannot ascend from.
Magalon or Flying Carpet? I'll look for them, thanks.
> If, by conflict and war, you specifically want tanks and soldiers, well
then you
> may be out of luck since even american companies in general try to shun
that
> (save Risk, which is considered a bastard game by many GAMERS(TM) not
including
> myself...I happen to love Risk).
Actually there are still a fair number of wargames companies out
there. Not as big a market as it used to be, but there are quality
games coming out.
Tom
Jasper Phillips
> That's true... it'd be nice to see a little more variety, but the $$
>involved in a modern game militate against it. That's why I enjoy
>buying games from small publishers. For instance, try King of Dragon
>Pass, from A-Sharp. It's an interesting game. It doesn't shy away
>from including conflict, but that's not the centerpiece of the game.
>It came out last year, and was a breath of fresh air in the game scene.
>
> So, the moral of the story is, support small publishers -- they're
>the only place you'll get much that's original.
>
>Tom
[A bit off topic, but why do people consider Tom a troll because his
viewpoint is different?]
This is the confusing part for me, since many of the "German" games
fit this "independant" mold (KoDP is an excellent game, and the only
true roleplaying game I've seen on a computer). Honestly, I think you've
just managed to play the crappy German games.
Many of them suck (I don't much care for Settlers), and indeed don't
have much interactivity. Princes of Florence is another popular recent
game that I can't stand (which I'm guessing is the auction game who's
name your forgot). But that doesn't mean that there aren't other games.
You're not likely to find serious miniatures rules, but you can certainly
find conflict.
I'd be interested in seeing a list of board games you actually like,
just to see if there are similar "German" games or not.
-Jasper
Ashwin Patil
I respect that.
But there are many of us that enjoy fantasy and imagination. To us, the
premise of being a prince building a city or an adventurer in search of
treasure are fascinating and entertaining.
I don't think that there will ever be a true compromise between wargamers
and people who enjoy unrealistic style games.... but we can try to
understand one another.
"Thomas Ruschak" <rus...@wintek.com> wrote in message
news:tl9hfj7...@corp.supernews.com...
Jasper Phillips
Thomas Ruschak <rus...@wintek.com> wrote:
>
>"Ashwin Patil" <ashwin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:vPZ47.40328$C81.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> What are some of the board games you like, and why do you like them? I'm
>> just curious, I will not lash out at you. Are you a wargamer purist?
>
> Well, to some degree, I guess. I enjoy a lot of the old wargame
>classics (Squad Leader/ASL, Russian Campaign, etc), as well as
>the new classics (Enemy at the Gates, etc) I enjoy simpler wargames
>such as Borderlands (the old EON classic) I'll occaisionally play a
>Cheapass game for the humor (Witch Trial being my favorite), but
>they generally lack much depth -- after 1 or two plays the best
>strategy is obvious to all and winning is a matter of chance. As a
>rule I enjoy longer games rather than shorter... Civilization (the AH
>version) is a lot of fun on an afternoon.
If you like Civ, you might try Vinci. It's essentially Civ light,
but it can be played in less than 2 hours. It's not as interesting as
Civ, but has it's points. It's a bit of a "racing" game, but so
is Civ.
> BTW, thanks Aswin for being civil. Many people in this
>group are much less than polite when someone doesn't agree
>with them.
That's just usenet. Strong opinions always manage to get taken in
the wrong way, and tick someone off.
-Jasper
Jasper Phillips
Thomas Ruschak <rus...@wintek.com> wrote:
>
>"Alan Kwan" <ta...@notmenetvigator.com> wrote in message
>news:3b53dce3...@news.netvigator.com...
>> Thomas, it is clear that you have not played the game and know nothing
>> about it.
>
> Hmm. Which part of "No German Games" didn't you
>understand? I've played 5-6 German games, and that was
>more than enough, thanks.
His point was that you were deriding a game based on points that
didn't apply to the game, and so clearly hadn't played. The implication
being that the game wasn't anything like you described, and was
actually fairly good -- tile games can have plenty of conflict,
and aren't only about blocking.
>> That's your gripe with German games? So you're perfectly happy with
>> whatever endless variety there is in computer games and American
>> wargames?
>
> At least the subjects of American wargames have some intrinsic
>interest. German games are usually so abstract as to lack all connection
>to the real world. (Settlers springs to mind)
There is that; German games are often abstractions with a thin veneer of
theme. Perhaps you simply don't like the more abstract German games?
If you're looking for a real wargame fix (e.g. Combat Mission), you
won't find it in German games. I look for that elsewhere.
>> Really, it's the horny teenage kids who ask for the blood. Truly
>> mature adults know how to handle and interpret the expression, and are
>> not excited by it.
[This is Alan's point I'm responding to here.]
That's complete BS. It's more of an advertising mechanism. Shocking
things get ones attention, and are more likely to sell. Products
evolve with more and more shock value in order to beat competitors
doing the same thing. It's the exact same thing you see on TV.
Kids are more susceptible, but adults are _hardly_ immune. In particular
"horny teenage kids" don't have an adults disposable income, and clearly
aren't the main target for games.
-Jasper,
who hopes this can stay a civil discussion.
Kevin J. Maroney
>[A bit off topic, but why do people consider Tom a troll because his
>viewpoint is different?]
I called him "a damn good imitation of a troll" because his
characterizations of games he hadn't played were presented with such a
startling degree of self-certainty, condemnation, and ignorance that
it seemed like he couldn't be much more likely to start a flame war if
he had tried.
I was also blaming him for this thread ending up in rec.games.board;
that was, however, not his fault initially.
Kevin J. Maroney
>I've been around here since the group was formed.
>How about you? If you don't like contrary opinions,
>I suggest you hide your head in the sand.
It seems likely that you are unaware that you are crossposting to
rec.games.board. If you have ever posted here in the past, I haven't
noticed it, and Google Groups gives no sign of it.
Jasper Phillips
Kevin J. Maroney <kmar...@ungames.com> wrote:
>jas...@spock.peak.org (Jasper Phillips) wrote:
>>[A bit off topic, but why do people consider Tom a troll because his
>>viewpoint is different?]
>
>I called him "a damn good imitation of a troll" because his
>characterizations of games he hadn't played were presented with such a
>startling degree of self-certainty, condemnation, and ignorance that
>it seemed like he couldn't be much more likely to start a flame war if
>he had tried.
True.
>I was also blaming him for this thread ending up in rec.games.board;
>that was, however, not his fault initially.
Well, it belongs more here than it did on csipg.stategic where I
started it... :-/
-Jasper
David Fontes
>
> "David Fontes" <sp...@mmiusa.com> wrote in message
> news:dKU47.8967$OY6.1...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
> >
> > "Thomas Ruschak" <rus...@wintek.com> wrote in message
> > news:tl7heml...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > > Nope. After many dull German games, I've implemented the simple
> > > "No German Games" rule. It's been effective in avoiding dull games
such
> > > as Settlers, that art auction one which is so dull I don't even
remember
> > > the title, etc.
> >
> > And in a separate message, said troll wrote:
> >
> > > I'll at least try any game once, which hardly seems like a bigoted
> > > policy.
> >
> > Ah yes. Complete inconsistency. Obviously this troll has not yet
perfected
> > the art.
> > -David
>
> Not quite sure how you arrived at the conclusion that
> insult is the best method of winning a discussion, but you're
> wrong. It only makes you look like a fool.
I wasn't trying to "win" a discussion. I didn't think it was possible to win
a discussion. Perhaps it is possible to win an argument, although certainly
not on Usenet. ;>
> Now, to address the point you raised (which is what
> adults do in discussions), there is no contradiction. I make
> my dislike for German games clear to those I play with. If
> the group really wants to play one, however, I'll at least
> play it once. Is that so hard to understand?
Not at all. And there is no contradiction in your rephrasing. There _was_ a
contradiction in your initial statements, however. There was also alot of
misinformed bashing of games I happen to like and which you had obviously
not played. I have no problem with people saying bad things about games I
like, if they have at least played them and can form an honest opinion. Your
statements struck me as ignorant and somewhat snide, however. You may very
well be a great guy who's alot of fun to game with, but when you insult
something that is well-liked by many in the sarcastic tone you've been
using, you have to expect some insults to be thrown back at you.
-David
Holger Peine
Thomas Ruschak, whose posting has not reached my server (yet))
Richard Hutnik wrote:
>
> "Thomas Ruschak" <rus...@wintek.com> wrote in message news:<tkplgr6...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > German board games -- yech! This is just MHO, of course, but I don't
> > care for any of the massively hyped German games. They're all just
> > diguised trading games or disguised multiplayer race games. Due to German
> > laws, you can't have any real combat in a board game, which makes them (for
> > me) dull. They remind me of the kindergarten scissors with the rounded
> > tips.
> > Censorship sucks, even in Germany.
OK, many other replies have already demonstrated how silly the statement about
"trading and racing games" is, but let me still comment on the nonsense about
alledged censorship laws in Germany:
There is no law which bars you from marketing a military-themed game in Germany,
in fact MB, part of Hasbro, used to do with a few titles, e.g. "Panzerschlacht"
("tank battle") or "U-Boot-Jagd" ("submarine hunt"). However, such games don't
sell well in Germany, because most game boxes are bought as gifts, and Germans
don't like war for a gift (we're really a rather pacifist bunch nowadays).
Consequently, German publishers don't publish such games at all - there is
simply
no market for this. And besides, war games could be sure to receive bad coverage
by the critics in the newspapers (yes, we have game critics in our newspapers
:-)
But, let me repeat that, there is no law barring you from trying your luck with
war games in Germany (and US war games can be legally bought in a few import
game
shops).
Germany is a free country, as free as the US in this respect, with one exception
explainable from our terrible history: Items with Nazi symbols are illegal here
(though often tolerated in the context of historic documentation).
I just needed to make this clear.
Kind regards,
--
Dipl.-Inform. (comparable to MSc) Holger Peine
University of Kaiserslautern, Germany
Phone +49-631-205-3292 Fax -205-3289
http://wwwagss.informatik.uni-kl.de/Mitarbeiter/peine
The Doctor
>
> A race game is where all the players are trying to achieve the same goal
> in the shortest possible time with minimal ability to interfere with the
> other
So any game in which you try to win (same goal) and happens to have
little interaction, is a race game? You are a madman.
> player's progress. Many of these games are disguised race games. If you
> can't materially affect the other player's progress, why not play solitaire?
There are so many German games in which you can materially affect other
players progress it's hardly worth mentioning even one. You are
obviously not knowledgable on this point and are judging solely based on
prejudice.
> > Ok, here is a list of a few games of the German nature that make your
> > opinion just plain wrong:
> > - Euphrat and Tigress. Not an trading game. Empire building with
> > conflicts using a tile laying mechanism.
>
> Wow... I can "attack" someone by laying a tile that inconveniences him?
> Woweeeee... too intense. Most of these tile-laying games are really race
> games anyway.
No, you can have a kingdom attack another kingdom by connecting them.
One of these halves will lose all of their tiles in any color that
happens to have two leaders in the newly formed larger kingdom. Removal
of tiles from the board constitutes kills, not 'inconvenience'.
> > - Through the Desert. Multiplayer go. No trading.
>
> Why not just play Go?
Coz it is obviously not multiplayer. And I do not quite agree with the
description anyway. It is abstract, and somewhat resembles go, but it's
not Go.
> > - Carcassone. Tile laying, build a map, lay units down. No race or
> > auction.
>
> OOh, more tile laying. Wow.
Yeah, I can see you gave this one a shot... Not!
Spiel des Jahres winners are not winners coz they really really suck.
They may not always be the best game, but they're never bad.
> Auctions! Trading's less interesting sibling.
Prejudice! An asshole's best companion.
> Card games. Why not just play bridge?
Klaverjassen is much better then bridge, and you don't even know.
> > - El Grande. A loosely themed game of placing influence in middle age
> > Spain.
>
> "Influence placing" -- there's an edge-of-your-seat thrillride.
Yup. It's a wargame actually, in which you place your soldiers in the
most strategic places so you might win a war. These spanish nobles
obviously were decent chaps, and in the end they settle things by
looking at the strategic positionning instead of actually fighting, but
it's all about placing soldiers.
Aren't all wargames about placing influence?
> > By the way, the "German laws" have to do with selling games to minors
> > with war themes. The bulk of what are considered "German style" games
> > are games that go well with non-gamers vs gamers and are good for
> > multiple age groups. I do have TWO wargames made by Germans: Steam
> > and Steel and Blitzkreig General. To go with your complaint of German
> > games you might as well blast the American game publishers also.
>
> From what I've heard, putting real conflict in a German game is the
> equivalent of an American film getting an "X" rating -- kiss of death.
In anyway, war-themes are not illegal, just something which doesn't work
well in the collective minds of Germans.
The lack of conflicts has nothing to do with this btw. These games are
designed so everyone who is in the game continues to be inthe game from
start till end, so nobody is 'out' early. In a game of Titan someone
could be killed in an hour, and have to wait 4 hours for the rest to
finish. You do not get that in German games.
//Doc.
The Doctor
>
> Just too indirect for me. What the hell's wrong with direct
> conflict in a game? Surely players of German games are
> mature enough to handle that, right?
Ehm, no. Most of these gamesa re played with 8-year old kids as well.
//Doc.
The Doctor
>
> At least the subjects of American wargames have some intrinsic
> interest.
You meant to say 'have some warped view of history, pounded on from
every side so it would fit into a hex-based wargame that had been
thought of before'?
They're all the same game, with usually the same mechanics. Just a new
battlefield chosen.
Why not play DBM or WRG with miniatures?
//Doc.
Benjamin Spicher
> > people who laugh at foreign language words which sound strange in the
> > (only?) language they know are somewhat ignorant, uneducated, and
> > rude.
>
> Is it as ignorant and rude as insulting strangers in a newsgroup?
Yes, because you insult a whole country (at least). In the newsgroup you
have at least an idea of someones "personality" based on earlier posts, and
in SOME cases calling someone ignorant vs. a certain subject is justified on
that basis. I mean.. you even ADMIT that you are talking about games you
have never played... you could call that ignorant - at least i would...
> Heh.. "Add a meeple" .... You actually admit to playing this game?
> Look out! He's going to add a meeple! Heh. Do you have to have
> time-outs when you all get too excited? :-)
See "ignorant", "rude", and also "never played the game"
> Yup. Played Modern Art, once, bored me to tears.
No problem about that - each after his own taste...
> At least the subjects of American wargames have some intrinsic
> interest. German games are usually so abstract as to lack all connection
> to the real world. (Settlers springs to mind)
And intrinsic interest makes a game good?? How would you rate "Battle Cry"
(an american game) ? Is it good because it's "about the civil war"? Or is it
bad because it uses simple mechanics (that could be applied to almost any
other theme). And saying that german games are boring because they all use
the same mechanics while using wargames as a comparison is.. well... no
comment... how many of them do you own??
> I see. So you approve of censorship?? Ends justifying those
> means again? Conflict in life often does involve violence, or
> the ultimate threat of violence. Hiding from it doesn't make it any
> nicer. I take it you don't read history, or even a newspaper?
see "rude", "name-calling" ,... Hiding from violence doesn't make it nicer,
but repeated showing of it does make it more "normal" and "acceptable". And
no, that doesn't mean i approve of censorship, it's just a fact. On the
other hand, i don't see much violence in rolling some dice and consulting
thousands of CRT's...
>
> > Really, it's the horny teenage kids who ask for the blood. Truly
> > mature adults know how to handle and interpret the expression, and are
> > not excited by it.
>
> Nice job there, demonizing the opposition. Just finish your
> Debate 101 class? I could similarly say that only the whiny little
> babies can't handle any real conflict, but that'd be dropping
> down to your level.
>
see "rude", "name-calling"....
One question: what was your motivation to post that message here in the
first place? Since you obvioulsy don't know anything about them, you can't
expect a discussion, right? Do you want to "bring us all into the light" ..
away from those bad german games ???
Peter Hein van Mulligen
> It sounds like you are mostly into hardcore, realistic games.
>
> I respect that.
>
> But there are many of us that enjoy fantasy and imagination. To us, the
> premise of being a prince building a city or an adventurer in search of
> treasure are fascinating and entertaining.
>
> I don't think that there will ever be a true compromise between wargamers
> and people who enjoy unrealistic style games.... but we can try to
> understand one another.
>
I agree with Ashwin wholeheartedly. I could consider myself a "German game
purist", (in that I never play wargames, mainly due to their length) but I
can respect when other players prefer wargames, and find my type of games not
interesting.
However, this discussion is getting a bit ugly, including name-calling.
Thomas, it was likely not your intention, but your somewhat undiplomatic way
of expressing your feelings about German boardgames (though not originally
posted in r.g.b., thank Richard for that ;-) apparently insulted some lovers
of this genre. I would assume many wargamers would feel insulted if I would
call wargames boring exercises in dice rolling to simulate old battles nobody
is really interested in. [disclaimer: this is an example, not my actual view]
Boardgamers and wargamers just look for different things in games. Preferring
one type of game does not make the other inferior.
Peter Hein
Rob Bendig
>
> "Alan Kwan" <ta...@notmenetvigator.com> wrote in message
> news:3b53dce3...@news.netvigator.com...
> > be happily sharing a region, but then someone can add a meeple to stop
> > the other players from scoring for the region.
>
> Heh.. "Add a meeple" .... You actually admit to playing this game?
> Look out! He's going to add a meeple! Heh. Do you have to have
> time-outs when you all get too excited? :-)
>
Lets see...
I'll move 2 cardboard counters labelled 6-3-1 on a map, roll a die on the
3-1 column of the CRT, result is defender moves their cardboard counter to a
different spot on the map. Could be pretty much any wargame couldn't it?
Or (from Attila rather than Carcassone but the principal holds)...
I add 2 Franks into northern Italy exceeding the population "limit". Now
all players play influence cards to reinforce one or more factions.
Smallest faction is eliminated.
Explain to me how the first is combat/conflict and the second is not.
Explain to me why the second is abstract and the first is not. Why is
removing a cardboard counter "bloody" but removing a man shaped piece of
wood not?
Rob.
Kat
Richard Hutnik <richar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:37bc9e37.01071...@posting.google.com...
> - Serinessima. Build trade routes to get money to build a navy to
> crush your opponent and steal their trade routes.
This description makes the game actually sound exciting. In reality, the
times that I played this, I found it kinda boring. Perhaps my strategy was
all wrong, but I found that I couldn't really get a good enough head of
steam going to continue building trade routes while pounding on the
opponents.
It is a very pretty game to look at, but I felt that it lacked
*something* -- just couldn't really put my finger on it...
YMMV.
Kat.
---
Christina L. White kat...@charter.net
"The only people up at 2AM should be the
Assasins and us." - Wulfgar the Dwarf
Richard Hutnik
> "Thomas Ruschak" <rus...@wintek.com> wrote:
> >I've been around here since the group was formed.
> >How about you? If you don't like contrary opinions,
> >I suggest you hide your head in the sand.
>
> It seems likely that you are unaware that you are crossposting to
> rec.games.board. If you have ever posted here in the past, I haven't
> noticed it, and Google Groups gives no sign of it.
This was partly my fault. Discussion on
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic with this initial thread ended up
talking about German boardgames, which is a major topic on
rec.games.board. I could of abruptly shifted the discussion to
rec.games.board, dropping strategic, but that may not of been
appropriate either.
Sorry for the inconvenience, but I thought it the right thing to do...
- Richard
Thomas Ruschak
"Holger Peine" <pe...@informatik.uni-kl.de> wrote in message
news:3B553C65...@informatik.uni-kl.de...
Holger, as you live there, perhaps you can clear things up for me. I
had heard,
secondhand, that a game with conflict/death in it COULD be sold in Germany,
but
under restrictions similar to those imposed on pornography here in the US.
In the
US, pornographic materials can be sold in normal stores, but must have their
covers
hidden and must be sold from behind the counter, and are never advertised.
I had
heard similar things about wargames in Germany -- sold behind the counter
where
minors couldn't browse them, and not advertised.
Is that at all true? What laws restrict the way these types of games
can be sold,
if any?
Tom
Tony Barber
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Thomas Ruschak wrote:
>
> > "No German Games" rule. It's been effective in avoiding dull games such
> > as Settlers, that art auction one which is so dull I don't even remember
> > the title, etc.
>
> Centauri, from Ultima Online to the beta test of Fallen Age, they're all
> the same thing over and over: shoot or punch everything you can, put
> everything else into storage. *Yawn*
>
> > My point was that I don't see the point in spending money
> > for a game that is simply a re-hash of a card game that I could
> > play for free. Especially since most games of that type aren't
> > that much fun the first time around.
>
> Exactly how I feel about computer games, since Doom is freely available
> nowadays...all the rest are just expensive re-hashes...
>
Ok You spend the rest of your life playing Doom and I will play all those
new games with better graphics and story lines even though they are
re-hashes (if we all thought like you we would still be playing with our
sinclair ZX81's because a PC is just a re-hash)
>
Thomas Ruschak
"The Doctor" <D...@freemail.nl> wrote in message
news:3B556D25...@freemail.nl...
> Thomas Ruschak wrote:
> >
> > A race game is where all the players are trying to achieve the same
goal
> > in the shortest possible time with minimal ability to interfere with the
> > other
>
> So any game in which you try to win (same goal) and happens to have
> little interaction, is a race game? You are a madman.
Hey, thanks for the insult, it'll look nice in my collection. Yes,
that's the
way I'd consider it. A race is an event where everyone is trying for the
same
goal, and you can't directly interfere with someone who's doing better than
you -- just try and improve your own performance. If you can, for example,
decide to attack the leader and drive him back, that's another matter.
> > player's progress. Many of these games are disguised race games. If
you
> > can't materially affect the other player's progress, why not play
solitaire?
>
> There are so many German games in which you can materially affect other
> players progress it's hardly worth mentioning even one. You are
> obviously not knowledgable on this point and are judging solely based on
> prejudice.
Sure. What percentage of all German games have YOU played? Less
than 100%? Then you're judging solely based on prejudice, right? We all
make decisions on our likes and dislikes based upon incomplete information,
so get over it. If this were a court of law, with someone's freedom or life
at
stake, then you could (rightly) insist upon a high standard of proof. We're
just talking about games... I can certainly base an opinion of a certain
class
of games on 5-6 playings, rather than having to play them ALL, and so can
you.
> > > Ok, here is a list of a few games of the German nature that make your
> > > opinion just plain wrong:
> > > - Euphrat and Tigress. Not an trading game. Empire building with
> > > conflicts using a tile laying mechanism.
> >
> > Wow... I can "attack" someone by laying a tile that inconveniences
him?
> > Woweeeee... too intense. Most of these tile-laying games are really
race
> > games anyway.
>
> No, you can have a kingdom attack another kingdom by connecting them.
> One of these halves will lose all of their tiles in any color that
> happens to have two leaders in the newly formed larger kingdom. Removal
> of tiles from the board constitutes kills, not 'inconvenience'.
You may like this, it's pretty damn abstract for me. I'd prefer
something
with a bit more meat to it.
> > > - Through the Desert. Multiplayer go. No trading.
> >
> > Why not just play Go?
>
> Coz it is obviously not multiplayer. And I do not quite agree with the
> description anyway. It is abstract, and somewhat resembles go, but it's
> not Go.
Abstract again.
> > > - Carcassone. Tile laying, build a map, lay units down. No race or
> > > auction.
> >
> > OOh, more tile laying. Wow.
>
> Yeah, I can see you gave this one a shot... Not!
Never played it. Sure doesn't sound like fun.
> Spiel des Jahres winners are not winners coz they really really suck.
> They may not always be the best game, but they're never bad.
"Spiel des Jahres" == Game of the Year, right? I can agree with
you that if they win an award in Germany that very few people IN
GERMANY think they suck. I just dislike the cultural baggage that
German games bring to the table.
> > Auctions! Trading's less interesting sibling.
>
> Prejudice! An asshole's best companion.
That's insult #2. Thanks for the adult style of discussion. I hope
that someday you'll be more mature.
> > Card games. Why not just play bridge?
>
> Klaverjassen is much better then bridge, and you don't even know.
Frankly, given the relative numbers of people who play/have
played each, I'd doubt that.
> > > - El Grande. A loosely themed game of placing influence in middle age
> > > Spain.
> >
> > "Influence placing" -- there's an edge-of-your-seat thrillride.
>
> Yup. It's a wargame actually, in which you place your soldiers in the
> most strategic places so you might win a war. These spanish nobles
> obviously were decent chaps, and in the end they settle things by
> looking at the strategic positionning instead of actually fighting, but
> it's all about placing soldiers.
Isn't that a LITTLE to abstract for you? You know, most times
historically, that DIDN'T happen. People fought for the things that
were important to them, even if they were sometimes outnumbered
or in a bad position.
> Aren't all wargames about placing influence?
Nope. Wargames are about attacking and defeating your opponent(s).
> > > By the way, the "German laws" have to do with selling games to minors
> > > with war themes. The bulk of what are considered "German style" games
> > > are games that go well with non-gamers vs gamers and are good for
> > > multiple age groups. I do have TWO wargames made by Germans: Steam
> > > and Steel and Blitzkreig General. To go with your complaint of German
> > > games you might as well blast the American game publishers also.
> >
> > From what I've heard, putting real conflict in a German game is the
> > equivalent of an American film getting an "X" rating -- kiss of death.
>
> In anyway, war-themes are not illegal, just something which doesn't work
> well in the collective minds of Germans.
Are there any laws which restrict the way that wargames are marketed
and sold? (Besides the no-Nazi's thing) Can you put a wargame on the
normal store shelves and advertise in general access magazines?
> The lack of conflicts has nothing to do with this btw. These games are
> designed so everyone who is in the game continues to be inthe game from
> start till end, so nobody is 'out' early. In a game of Titan someone
> could be killed in an hour, and have to wait 4 hours for the rest to
> finish. You do not get that in German games.
Yeah, and that's probably one of the reasons I dislike them. A friend
mentioned that German games are all designed to be played by the family...
mother, father, and the children. You can't have any fighting, because
that's not good for little Hans and his brother. You can't have complicated
rules, because the kids can't keep track of them. You can't use any
interesting historical settings, because the little ones won't know what
you're talking about.
I prefer games made by adults, for adults, thanks.
Tom
Thomas Ruschak
Well, that's the problem right there. I want adult games, not kid's
games.
Tom
Thomas Ruschak
"Jasper Phillips" <jas...@spock.peak.org> wrote in message
news:9j2h23$4nr$1...@spock.peak.org...
> In article <tl9gsmh...@corp.supernews.com>,
> Thomas Ruschak <rus...@wintek.com> wrote:
> >"Nathan Sanders" <san...@ling.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
> [snip]
>
> > That's true... it'd be nice to see a little more variety, but the $$
> >involved in a modern game militate against it. That's why I enjoy
> >buying games from small publishers. For instance, try King of Dragon
> >Pass, from A-Sharp. It's an interesting game. It doesn't shy away
> >from including conflict, but that's not the centerpiece of the game.
> >It came out last year, and was a breath of fresh air in the game scene.
> >
> > So, the moral of the story is, support small publishers -- they're
> >the only place you'll get much that's original.
> >
> >Tom
>
>
> [A bit off topic, but why do people consider Tom a troll because his
> viewpoint is different?]
>
> This is the confusing part for me, since many of the "German" games
> fit this "independant" mold (KoDP is an excellent game, and the only
> true roleplaying game I've seen on a computer). Honestly, I think you've
> just managed to play the crappy German games.
Maybe you're right. I have been collecting the names of games
that people have suggested here as German games I might like. I'll
have to try some.
> Many of them suck (I don't much care for Settlers), and indeed don't
> have much interactivity. Princes of Florence is another popular recent
> game that I can't stand (which I'm guessing is the auction game who's
> name your forgot). But that doesn't mean that there aren't other games.
> You're not likely to find serious miniatures rules, but you can certainly
> find conflict.
You're the only other gamer I've met who'll admit to not liking
Settlers. I was starting to think they'd impregnated the tiles and other
game equipment with opium or something :-)
I bought Princes of Florence for a recent gaming reunion. Played
it twice and hated it. I did manage to give it away to a friend who really
enjoyed it, so it was a win of a sort. It IS the kind of game I was talking
about -- a very abstract game (with jigsaw puzzle element, yet!) with
few ways to attack a leader.
> I'd be interested in seeing a list of board games you actually like,
> just to see if there are similar "German" games or not.
> -Jasper
Let's see. I enjoy many wargames, such as Squad Leader/ASL,
Russian Campaign, etc. I like Third Reich/ATR, even though I suck
at it. I like World In Flames, ditto. :-) I'll play simple strategic
games like American Civil War or some of the wooden block games,
though they're not my favorites. I like most anything by The Gamers.
Enemy At The Gates is fun, and something like the Danny Parker
"Hitler's Last Gamble" is great. (Damn he does good research,
doesn't he? His book on the Bulge is very well written and quite
good)
I think my favorite wargame of all time is Bar-Lev, a simulation of
the '73 Arab-Israeli war. That one's especially fun when played as a
five-player game -- two Arabs, representing the Egyptians and Syrians,
and *three* Israelis, one each for the Egyptian and Syrian fronts, and
one who represents the Israeli high command. The high commander
controls the Israeli airforce and allocates resources between the two
fronts. It's always fun to listen to the front commanders try to make
things on their side seem as desperate as possible, so as to get more
resources allocated to their armies ;-)
On the non-wargame side, the game I've enjoyed most is that old
EON classic, Cosmic Encounters. For a long time my group played
the original game with the first 8 expansions, and added multiple
hidden powers to boot. Very complicated, *tons* of strategies, and
had lots of ways for people to sneak in and win -- all things I don't
see in German games. Children couldn't play Cosmic -- way too
complicated. I've played it hundreds of times.
I like some social games, like Junta! I love that game. For those
who haven't played it, its a West End game that simulates life in a
stereotypical South American dictatorship. (Completely non-PC,
of course, and unfair given all the US has done to screw up that part
of the world, but it's still a great game) It's a 5-7 player game that
includes politics, assasinations and coups. Lots of humor, player
interaction, and strategy. The fighting (coups) are basically secondary,
but are still fun in and of themselves. Anyway, all in all a wonderful
game. Besides, who could resist the chance to be El Presidente?!?
I also like some abstract games, like Borderlands. It's another EON
title (damn fine company). It's fairly simple and abstract, with pieces
representing soldiers, horses, weapons, boats, etc. It's completely
non-random, which is interesting. In combat you simply total up the
factors of the involved pieces, with high total winning. So, it's a matter
of bringing pressure to bear upon your enemies vulnerable points at
the right time -- and managing the diplomacy that allows you to do
that without getting killed yourself.
I enjoy some simple games, as long as they're QUICK. I like
a fair number of CheapAss games, like Witch Trial or The Great
Brain Robbery. I like Lunch Money, an interesting schoolyard fighting
card-game by Atlas Games. (Kind of cool -- the designer wanted to
make a game, but didn't have much of a budget, so he took lots of
pictures of his daughters and their friends and processed them in odd
ways to come up with the kind of scary images on the cards. Check
out the pics at: http://www.atlas-games.com/lunch_money_gallery.html
I've played a bit of Magic The Gathering, though it's not my favorite.
I'll sometimes play a simple wargame, like Axis & Allies, though I don't
like them much. I do like Up Front, which is a fairly simple WWII card
game.
Whew. Didn't realize this'd be so long. There're lots more I could
mention, but that should be enough for now.
Tom
Thomas Ruschak
> > Not quite sure how you arrived at the conclusion that
> > insult is the best method of winning a discussion, but you're
> > wrong. It only makes you look like a fool.
>
> I wasn't trying to "win" a discussion. I didn't think it was possible to
win
> a discussion. Perhaps it is possible to win an argument, although
certainly
> not on Usenet. ;>
Heh. You're probably right on that one. Usenet discussions
never die, they just go on life support and waste away. I'll rephrase
it to say that insult is not the most effective way of discussing anything,
if discussion is your true goal.
> > Now, to address the point you raised (which is what
> > adults do in discussions), there is no contradiction. I make
> > my dislike for German games clear to those I play with. If
> > the group really wants to play one, however, I'll at least
> > play it once. Is that so hard to understand?
>
> Not at all. And there is no contradiction in your rephrasing. There _was_
a
> contradiction in your initial statements, however. There was also alot of
> misinformed bashing of games I happen to like and which you had obviously
> not played. I have no problem with people saying bad things about games I
> like, if they have at least played them and can form an honest opinion.
Your
> statements struck me as ignorant and somewhat snide, however. You may very
> well be a great guy who's alot of fun to game with, but when you insult
> something that is well-liked by many in the sarcastic tone you've been
> using, you have to expect some insults to be thrown back at you.
Sarcastic? Only when insulted. In my original post I stated that the
things I said were my opinions. I wasn't saying that those who liked the
games were idiots or stupid, I said that I didn't care for them, and listed
my reasons.
As for not having played all of them, well, of course I hadn't. Surely
you don't repeatedly bash your head against a wall to see if you like it,
right? One or two thwacks, and it's pretty clear. In my case, I've played
5-6 German games, and have been told that the ones I played are pretty
representative of the genre. That's plenty to base an opinion on, and I
wouldn't call that "ignorant", which is kind of a loaded term anyway. I
didn't tell people not to play the games, either. To call me a troll for
saying these things is obviously incorrect. A troll is someone, generally
not a regular, who comes into a group and spontaneously posts insults
to try and start a fight. I have been reading this group for as long as it
has existed, and I was replying to an article praising a group of games
to offer a dissenting opinion, to wit:
"Thomas Ruschak" <rus...@wintek.com> wrote in message
news:<tkplgr6...@corp.supernews.com>...
> "Jasper Phillips" <jas...@spock.peak.org> wrote in message
> news:9iignj$js2$1...@spock.peak.org...
>
> > Actually, while Germany doesn't make so many computer games, they are
> > a constant source of well done and fairly original board games. And
> > the original poster was right -- you wouldn't see games like Deer
Hunter,
> > or most of the other derivative crap that fills shelves in the US.
> >
> > I personally would love to see German designers get into computer
gaming.
>
> German board games -- yech! This is just MHO, of course, but I don't
> care for any of the massively hyped German games. They're all just
> diguised trading games or disguised multiplayer race games. Due to German
> laws, you can't have any real combat in a board game, which makes them
(for
> me) dull. They remind me of the kindergarten scissors with the rounded
> tips.
> Censorship sucks, even in Germany.
Tom
Thomas Ruschak
> Thomas Ruschak wrote:
> >
> > At least the subjects of American wargames have some intrinsic
> > interest.
>
> You meant to say 'have some warped view of history, pounded on from
> every side so it would fit into a hex-based wargame that had been
> thought of before'?
No, I meant to say what I said. If you'd like me to expand, I'd say
well-researched, reasonably historically accurate, and illustrative of the
strategic and tactical choices faced by the people who did it for real.
> They're all the same game, with usually the same mechanics. Just a new
> battlefield chosen.
In some ways, yes. If you try a few and don't like them, you can
safely ignore the genre.
> Why not play DBM or WRG with miniatures?
I do, when I'm able. I enjoy them immensely. Unfortunately I
don't have the time or artistic talent to paint up my own minis.
Tom
Blackberry
>
>And so any game where you keep score is a racing game? That's certainly
>not my definition. Each to his own, I guess.
No. However, in the example of Vinci, you could be totally eliminated from the
board at the end of the game and *still* win on victory points. The only thing
that matters in the game is the victory points that you build up during your
turns. If you can figure out a way to do that without doing well on the main
board, then you can win.
--------------------
"It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet."
-- Frankie Goes to Hollywood
Brian -- le...@NOnwlinkSPAM.com -- remove "NOSPAM"
Thomas Ruschak
"Benjamin Spicher" <benjamin...@unifr.ch> wrote in message
news:3b55...@siufuxsun02.unifr.ch...
> > > As a more or less multi-language person, I can't help thinking that
> > > people who laugh at foreign language words which sound strange in the
> > > (only?) language they know are somewhat ignorant, uneducated, and
> > > rude.
> >
> > Is it as ignorant and rude as insulting strangers in a newsgroup?
>
>
> Yes, because you insult a whole country (at least). In the newsgroup you
> have at least an idea of someones "personality" based on earlier posts,
and
> in SOME cases calling someone ignorant vs. a certain subject is justified
on
> that basis. I mean.. you even ADMIT that you are talking about games you
> have never played... you could call that ignorant - at least i would...
You could call that ignorant, but you'd be wrong. If I'd never played
ANY
German games, you'd be justified in saying that. I've played 5-6, and have
been told by people who like German games that they're representative of
the genre. Seems like plenty to base an opinion on.
Oh, and I have nothing at all against Germany... I just don't like their
games.
I'd buy a German car in a shot, and German food is wonderful. I even like
some of their music (Kraftwerk). I just don't like their games. If that be
treason, make the most of it! :-)
> > Heh.. "Add a meeple" .... You actually admit to playing this game?
> > Look out! He's going to add a meeple! Heh. Do you have to have
> > time-outs when you all get too excited? :-)
>
>
> See "ignorant", "rude", and also "never played the game"
If you can't see the humor in that, you need to have your humor
module adjusted, Tobor :-) It's a silly name, unless it's a German
word I don't know, in which case it just sounds silly to American
ears.
> > Yup. Played Modern Art, once, bored me to tears.
>
> No problem about that - each after his own taste...
Nice to hear that. :-0
> > At least the subjects of American wargames have some intrinsic
> > interest. German games are usually so abstract as to lack all
connection
> > to the real world. (Settlers springs to mind)
>
>
> And intrinsic interest makes a game good?? How would you rate "Battle Cry"
> (an american game) ? Is it good because it's "about the civil war"? Or is
it
> bad because it uses simple mechanics (that could be applied to almost any
> other theme). And saying that german games are boring because they all
use
> the same mechanics while using wargames as a comparison is.. well... no
> comment... how many of them do you own??
I haven't played Battle Cry. I've liked most Civil War games, because
that's a quite interesting historical period. If you say it's got bad
mechanics,
well, in most cases that's enough to make a game a bad game, even if it is
based in an interesting period.
Not sure of your question at the end? I've haven't owned any German
games
-- never liked any enough to buy. I bought Princes of Florence and gave it
away
to a friend when I discovered I disliked it. I own a ton of wargames.
Anyway, German games in general are too simplistic, pacifistic, and
abstract
for my tastes, possibly as a result of the way games are played in Germany
(all
games apparently being family activities there)
> > I see. So you approve of censorship?? Ends justifying those
> > means again? Conflict in life often does involve violence, or
> > the ultimate threat of violence. Hiding from it doesn't make it any
> > nicer. I take it you don't read history, or even a newspaper?
>
>
> see "rude", "name-calling" ,... Hiding from violence doesn't make it
nicer,
> but repeated showing of it does make it more "normal" and "acceptable".
That's a common belief in some circles, but I've never seen much in
the way of proof for it. You could just as easily say that violent games
are good because they offer an acceptable way of sublimating the violent
urges people feel.
> And
> no, that doesn't mean i approve of censorship, it's just a fact. On the
> other hand, i don't see much violence in rolling some dice and consulting
> thousands of CRT's...
Sure, and neither do it. Direct conflict, but not actual violence. The
problem I have with German games is that conflict is almost always
indirect.
> > > Really, it's the horny teenage kids who ask for the blood. Truly
> > > mature adults know how to handle and interpret the expression, and are
> > > not excited by it.
> >
> > Nice job there, demonizing the opposition. Just finish your
> > Debate 101 class? I could similarly say that only the whiny little
> > babies can't handle any real conflict, but that'd be dropping
> > down to your level.
> >
>
> see "rude", "name-calling"....
So, responding to an insult is rude, eh? I'm supposed to let you
belittle
me but I can't respond? Crap.
> One question: what was your motivation to post that message here in the
> first place? Since you obvioulsy don't know anything about them, you can't
> expect a discussion, right? Do you want to "bring us all into the light"
..
> away from those bad german games ???
I posted in reponse to a posting by Jasper Phillips saying that Germany
was "a constant source of well done and fairly original board games" and
that "I personally would love to see German designers get into computer
gaming"
I don't like German games and would thus hate to see computer gaming go
the German route.
And of COURSE I can discuss something without complete knowledge
of it. How ELSE would you be able to broaden your horizons? Heck, in
this discussion I've learned some things I didn't know, and better still,
learned
the names of some German games I might like, which could come in handy
when I'm faced with a gaming group that only has or wants to play that type
of games.
I've also stated quite a few times that if you enjoy German games, more
power to you. I just don't think they're the be-all and end-all of gaming.
I don't care to save anyone from anything, but I do like to give alternative
views when I have them. If free expression of opinions and the
encouragement
of rational discussion isn't the main point of newsgroups, what is?
Tom
Thomas Ruschak
"angiolillo" <angio...@gioco.net> wrote in message
news:c46943a.01071...@posting.google.com...
> > Ok, here is a list of a few games of the German nature that make your
> > opinion just plain wrong:
>
at all.
Unfortunately I just don't find auctions amusing. Nothing to do
with my other criticisms of German games -- auctions just don't do it
for me as the primary focus of a game. As a secondary part they're
ok, but not as the main part of the game.
(and your last sentence tickles my funny-bone. It's like the line from
Blues Brothers when they ask what kind of music is played in a bar and
the waitress pipes up and says "We like BOTH kinds, Country AND
Western!" :-) Surely there are game elements other than auction/race/trade,
right? :-)
Tom
Blackberry
very competitive screw-everyone game), Civilization, Empire Builder, Europa
1945-2030, and card games (the differences between Falling, Chrononauts, Great
Dalmuti, Egyptian Ratscrew, Dragonmaster, Aquarius, and Bridge). Any reason?
Thomas Ruschak
"Peter Hein van Mulligen" <p.h.van....@eco.rug.nl> wrote in message
news:3B55782C...@eco.rug.nl...
> Ashwin Patil wrote:
>
> > It sounds like you are mostly into hardcore, realistic games.
> >
> > I respect that.
Thanks!
> > But there are many of us that enjoy fantasy and imagination. To us, the
> > premise of being a prince building a city or an adventurer in search of
> > treasure are fascinating and entertaining.
I do too. Ever tried a board/storytelling game called Tales of the
Arabian
Nights? It's probably out of print now, but it was a very cool & innovative
way of combining a board game with imaginitive fantasy elements.
It's not the subject matter I dislike, of course. I dislike the general
complexity level of the rules, and the abstract & indirect nature of
gameplay.
I am glad you both enjoy them, though. (Truly glad. If more people played
games instead of using their time to make other people miserable, this'd
be a much nicer world)
> > I don't think that there will ever be a true compromise between
wargamers
> > and people who enjoy unrealistic style games.... but we can try to
> > understand one another.
> >
>
> I agree with Ashwin wholeheartedly. I could consider myself a "German game
> purist", (in that I never play wargames, mainly due to their length) but I
> can respect when other players prefer wargames, and find my type of games
not
> interesting.
I'm glad. I myself prefer long games... I'm the same way about fiction,
I
hate short stories, even those by authors I love :-)
> However, this discussion is getting a bit ugly, including name-calling.
> Thomas, it was likely not your intention, but your somewhat undiplomatic
way
> of expressing your feelings about German boardgames (though not originally
> posted in r.g.b., thank Richard for that ;-) apparently insulted some
lovers
> of this genre. I would assume many wargamers would feel insulted if I
would
> call wargames boring exercises in dice rolling to simulate old battles
nobody
> is really interested in. [disclaimer: this is an example, not my actual
view]
That wouldn't bother me. A mature person, imho, doesn't insist that
everyone in the world like something he likes or hate something he hates.
I've played wargames with people who didn't like them and were playing
for some secondary reason (girl/boy friend playing, killing time, etc), and
it
was universally horrible.
And diplomacy is in the eye of the beholder, on the Internet at least.
People tend to take any criticism of something they like very personally.
I said things about German games and you'd think I'd insulted their
mother's honor or something.
> Boardgamers and wargamers just look for different things in games.
Preferring
> one type of game does not make the other inferior.
Quite true.
Tom
Christopher Dearlove
<rus...@wintek.com> writes
>A race is an event where everyone is trying for the same
>goal, and you can't directly interfere with someone who's doing better
than
>you -- just try and improve your own performance.
As a definition of a race I think that could be improved on. However
under that definition (and any I would come up with) 6 Tage Rennen
(6 day race) is a race game. Nevertheless it has very significant
and important player interaction. (A brief summary, when you play
a 5 card, for example, to move forward 5 spaces if you then land
on a space occupied by, say, 3 other players you then move forwards
a further 3x5=15 spaces. This simple mechanism has some surprisingly
interesting consequences - can I say emergent properties? - including
cooperation and competition.)
Now from your postings I doubt this is your sort of game, but
it is an example of where even where your definition appears
to rule out interaction it doesn't. Frankly the number of
games without significant interaction is very limited (and the
number of those which are worth playing even more so).
--
Christopher Dearlove
Christopher Dearlove
<rus...@wintek.com> writes
>Surely there are game elements other than auction/race/trade,
>right?
Combat, positioning, memory, set-forming, co-operation, puzzle
solving, physical co-ordination, bluffing, playing the odds,
pattern forming, resource management, deal making, judging timing,
planning, mathematical analysis, book learning, ...
And yes, I had at least one game in mind when I typed each of
those, and when I typed "planning" for example I wasn't thinking
of planning any one of the other items on the list.
--
Christopher Dearlove
Graham Wills
> Well, it's fair to say that the game in Vinci and Ursuppe (not having played the
> others) is in a race on the victory point track; the central board is only the
> vehicle by which you figure out how far you go on the race track. This isn't to
> discount the fun of these games, but it's all in the victory points. At the end
> of the game, it doesn't matter who has what in the center of the board or how it
> got there; all that matters is the point total.
I don't think the use of victory points is sufficient to characterize a game as
a race game. A race game is one where the mechanics of the game are aimed at
advancing tokens along a track (or some such race equaivalent). In Ursuppe, the
mechanics are not aimed at advancing tokens -- all of the card choice, position,
movment and randomness is aimed at creating and improving resources -- the
amoebae. It is far better characterized as a resource game than as a race game.
Mississippi Queen is a clear example of a race game; the mechanics all
affect the movoemnt along a track directly. Circus Maximus is mostly a race
game; there is a strong element of maintaining your resources (horses and
wheels), but *most* of the mechanics deal with advancing position on a track.
The scoring mechanism is a side-product of other mechanism; it's not the
core game purpose. If you were asked "how do you win at Ursuppe?" by a novice
player and replied "by getting to the winning posiiton on th track first"
you would be doing them a disservice. A much better answer would be "by
acquiring genes and keeping as big a population of amoebae as possible".
In contrast, for a race game like M. Queen or Circus Maximus "being the first
past the finishing post" would be a useful answer.
- Graham
--
Graham Wills Data Visualization, Bell Labs
gwi...@research.bell-labs.com +1 (630) 979 7338
http://www.bell-labs.com/~gwills Silk for Calde!
Graham Wills
>
> On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:22:57 -0700, Nathan Sanders
> <san...@ling.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
> >Actually, an attack in T&E can be pretty damaging. Loss of a leader,
> >loss of followers, the breakup of a kingdom.
>
> That's most definitely true. It's even worse if the board is crowded
> enough, so that I can't find a spot to place my leader back on the
> board without having it kicked away again within one turn.
I would suggest that Thomas play E&T with someone who has learned it.
It is -- at least in my opinion -- a very strongly aggresive game
with high player interaction and potential for serious combat.
Christopher Dearlove
<rus...@wintek.com> writes
>I had heard,
>secondhand, that a game with conflict/death in it COULD be sold in
Germany,
>but
>under restrictions similar to those imposed on pornography here in the
US.
Well a few (Holger has explained why only a few) conflict games
are openly on sale each year at Spiel at Essen, where minors are
numerous. (Actually last year - or maybe the year before - one
particular actress there was signing photographs which whilst
not pornographic did leave less to the imagination than usual
- she also had some Playboy copies - so we may have differences
there also.)
--
Christopher Dearlove
Thomas Ruschak
"Christopher Dearlove" <ch...@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:epYypjAc...@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk...
Interesting mechanic. However, it isn't interaction that I find
lacking. In the German games I've player and seen, there are
very few mechanisms to allow other players to bring the leader
back to the pack. If you're in second or third, you can try to
do better yourself, but you can't attack the leader and force
him back to give you and a couple of allies a better chance.
Usually the best you can do is convenience him, like the
bumping that sometimes goes on in track & field events.
Tom
Jasper Phillips
Blackberry <le...@NOnwlinkSPAM.com> wrote:
>On 17 Jul 2001 00:33:17 -0700, jas...@spock.peak.org wrote:
>>
>>And so any game where you keep score is a racing game? That's certainly
>>not my definition. Each to his own, I guess.
>
>No. However, in the example of Vinci, you could be totally eliminated from the
>board at the end of the game and *still* win on victory points. The only thing
>that matters in the game is the victory points that you build up during your
>turns. If you can figure out a way to do that without doing well on the main
>board, then you can win.
You can't be eliminated from Vinci, as you can always get a new empire. Your
score is a good track of how well your empires have expanded at other's
expense -- with recent history valued no more than past history.
In particular, there isn't a way to get points without doing well on the main
board.
-Jasper
Thomas Ruschak
"Richard Hutnik" <richar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:37bc9e37.01071...@posting.google.com...
I hadn't notice the redirection, sorry. Usually when I see a
discussion redirected the person doing it says something about
it.
I've been reading & posting on and off in rec.games.board since
1983 or so, if that matters. Sorry if Google doesn't notice me, but
I have. I do tend to lurk the last six or seven years, though. PC
gaming kind of takes up my spare time since then.
Tom
Thomas Ruschak
Exactly! The German games I've seen tend to concentrate on
the three I mentioned rather than some of the others.
Tom
Anthony C Kam
>I would suggest that Thomas play E&T with someone who has learned it.
>It is -- at least in my opinion -- a very strongly aggresive game
>with high player interaction and potential for serious combat.
I strongly agree, assuming (1) Thomas is not turned off by the
abstractness and also (2) he has access to players who have already
learned the game. Given the same two caveats, I would also suggest El
Grande, which has lots of conflict (but no real elimination of pieces
except in rare occasions). In fact, some of my game group wouldnt play
El Grande because of too much direct conflict!
In general, lets steer this thread away from the arguments, which can
probably be attributed to heated words and spur-of-the-moment replies
more than anything else. How about we discuss a more interesting topic?
What German game would you recommend for someone who used to be a
die-hard wargamer?
Of course, many of them will never like German games, but which games
have better chance for them to like? I suspect Settlers is not the
right first German game for them, although it is a very good intro game
for many others. Off the top of my head I can think of Vinci, El Grande
and E&T. Any others? Replies based on actual experience introducing
German games to wargamers are especially welcome!
(Not that I feel a need to convert you, Thomas, or several other RGB
regulars who have avowed disinterest in German games. To each his own!)
antkam
Christopher Dearlove
<rus...@wintek.com> writes
> Interesting mechanic. However, it isn't interaction that I find
>lacking. In the German games I've player and seen, there are
>very few mechanisms to allow other players to bring the leader
>back to the pack.
That's one of the emergent properties! In 6 Tage Rennen the leader
does fall back into the pack, whilst tail enders may get lost
completely. This is, so those who know about these things tell me,
how some types (notice my precision here!) of bicycle race behave,
and guess what the theme of 6TR is?
--
Christopher Dearlove
Christopher Dearlove
<rus...@wintek.com> writes
>
>"Christopher Dearlove" <ch...@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:LpM3puAM...@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <tlbhq2h...@corp.supernews.com>, Thomas Ruschak
>> <rus...@wintek.com> writes
>> >Surely there are game elements other than auction/race/trade,
>> >right?
>>
>> Combat, positioning, memory, set-forming, co-operation, puzzle
>> solving, physical co-ordination, bluffing, playing the odds,
>> pattern forming, resource management, deal making, judging timing,
>> planning, mathematical analysis, book learning, ...
>>
>> And yes, I had at least one game in mind when I typed each of
>> those, and when I typed "planning" for example I wasn't thinking
>> of planning any one of the other items on the list.
>
> Exactly! The German games I've seen tend to concentrate on
>the three I mentioned rather than some of the others.
Actually in almost all of my examples I was thinking of "German" games.
--
Christopher Dearlove
Ashwin Patil
"Does anyone else out there feel like German games are often oversimplified
and lack the complexity found in civilization, etc? I like depth and
realism in my games, and haven't seen many German games that fit this
description"
This would have set off a more intellectual discussion methinks.
"Thomas Ruschak" <rus...@wintek.com> wrote in message
news:tlbimdt...@corp.supernews.com...
Jasper Phillips
Thomas Ruschak <rus...@wintek.com> wrote:
>> This is the confusing part for me, since many of the "German" games
>> fit this "independant" mold (KoDP is an excellent game, and the only
>> true roleplaying game I've seen on a computer). Honestly, I think you've
>> just managed to play the crappy German games.
>
> Maybe you're right. I have been collecting the names of games
>that people have suggested here as German games I might like. I'll
>have to try some.
I typically look for reviews on the web, or especially translations
of the rules. www.boardgamegeek.com seems pretty good for this.
>> Many of them suck (I don't much care for Settlers), and indeed don't
>> have much interactivity. Princes of Florence is another popular recent
>> game that I can't stand (which I'm guessing is the auction game who's
>> name your forgot). But that doesn't mean that there aren't other games.
>> You're not likely to find serious miniatures rules, but you can certainly
>> find conflict.
>
> You're the only other gamer I've met who'll admit to not liking
>Settlers. I was starting to think they'd impregnated the tiles and other
>game equipment with opium or something :-)
If you add in the rules for boats and islands, carefully build the map
with an eye towards balance, and play to more points it works out better.
I still feel there isn't really enough interaction, and that's entirely
too easy to get scewed by nothing but bad luck. Definitely better
games to play.
> I bought Princes of Florence for a recent gaming reunion. Played
>it twice and hated it. I did manage to give it away to a friend who really
>enjoyed it, so it was a win of a sort. It IS the kind of game I was talking
>about -- a very abstract game (with jigsaw puzzle element, yet!) with
>few ways to attack a leader.
This game almost put me to sleep. Everyone else was enjoying it so I
held my tongue, but I don't think I'll play it again.
>> I'd be interested in seeing a list of board games you actually like,
>> just to see if there are similar "German" games or not.
>> -Jasper
>
> Let's see. I enjoy many wargames, such as Squad Leader/ASL,
>Russian Campaign, etc. I like Third Reich/ATR, even though I suck
>at it. I like World In Flames, ditto. :-) I'll play simple strategic
>games like American Civil War or some of the wooden block games,
>though they're not my favorites. I like most anything by The Gamers.
>Enemy At The Gates is fun, and something like the Danny Parker
>"Hitler's Last Gamble" is great. (Damn he does good research,
>doesn't he? His book on the Bulge is very well written and quite
>good)
You're definitely towards the hardcore end of the spectrum. ;-)
I like those kind of games too, although I can't find anyone to play
anymore, and don't really have the time anyway. For such complex games
I've come to prefer PBEM computer games (e.g. Combat Mission, Operational
Art of War), as they take care of many of the mundane aspects, and
it's easy to find players.
> On the non-wargame side, the game I've enjoyed most is that old
>EON classic, Cosmic Encounters. For a long time my group played
>the original game with the first 8 expansions, and added multiple
>hidden powers to boot. Very complicated, *tons* of strategies, and
>had lots of ways for people to sneak in and win -- all things I don't
>see in German games. Children couldn't play Cosmic -- way too
>complicated. I've played it hundreds of times.
Huh. Cosmic Encounters left me cold. Way too abstract and random.
I felt there was a lot of variety, but not really much strategy.
> I like some social games, like Junta! I love that game. For those
[snip]
Only played it once, but it was good fun.
> I also like some abstract games, like Borderlands. It's another EON
>title (damn fine company). It's fairly simple and abstract, with pieces
>representing soldiers, horses, weapons, boats, etc. It's completely
>non-random, which is interesting. In combat you simply total up the
>factors of the involved pieces, with high total winning. So, it's a matter
>of bringing pressure to bear upon your enemies vulnerable points at
>the right time -- and managing the diplomacy that allows you to do
>that without getting killed yourself.
Interesting, I'd be curious to see how that works. All military
games I've seen benefit greatly from inperfect information, either
through somewhat unpredictable results (e.g. dice), or fog of war.
Does it have simultaneous plotted movement like Diplomacy?
> I enjoy some simple games, as long as they're QUICK. I like
>a fair number of CheapAss games, like Witch Trial or The Great
>Brain Robbery. I like Lunch Money, an interesting schoolyard fighting
>card-game by Atlas Games. (Kind of cool -- the designer wanted to
>make a game, but didn't have much of a budget, so he took lots of
>pictures of his daughters and their friends and processed them in odd
>ways to come up with the kind of scary images on the cards. Check
>out the pics at: http://www.atlas-games.com/lunch_money_gallery.html
CheapAss games are amusing, but grow tired quickly. Lunch Money was
a little light for me, although I liked Brawl. It's definitely quick!
> Whew. Didn't realize this'd be so long. There're lots more I could
>mention, but that should be enough for now.
Thanks for the effort. :-) It's always nice to hear strong but well
through out opinions of games. I think the length will help avoid much
of the usual usenet misinterpretation.
-Jasper
Jasper Phillips
>Thomas Ruschak wrote:
>>
>> Just too indirect for me. What the hell's wrong with direct
>> conflict in a game? Surely players of German games are
>> mature enough to handle that, right?
>
>Ehm, no. Most of these gamesa re played with 8-year old kids as well.
Eh? 8 year kids who can't handle conflict could probably stand to learn
a little about it.
-Jasper
Blackberry
>
>In article <9j4ca...@drn.newsguy.com>,
>Blackberry <le...@NOnwlinkSPAM.com> wrote:
>>On 17 Jul 2001 00:33:17 -0700, jas...@spock.peak.org wrote:
>>>
>>>And so any game where you keep score is a racing game? That's certainly
>>>not my definition. Each to his own, I guess.
>>
>>No. However, in the example of Vinci, you could be totally eliminated from the
>>board at the end of the game and *still* win on victory points. The only thing
>>that matters in the game is the victory points that you build up during your
>>turns. If you can figure out a way to do that without doing well on the main
>>board, then you can win.
>
>You can't be eliminated from Vinci, as you can always get a new empire.
"...at the end of the game..." There's no way to get a new empire if you've
already gone in the round and it's the last round.
>Your
>score is a good track of how well your empires have expanded at other's
>expense -- with recent history valued no more than past history.
It is a good track, but not necessarily a correlation. You could rack up lots
of VP for having civilizations, say, with after-fall Mining and Coinage and a
small area.
Craig S. Richardson
wrote:
>In article <tlbfgqk...@corp.supernews.com>,
>Thomas Ruschak <rus...@wintek.com> wrote:
>> I also like some abstract games, like Borderlands. It's another EON
>>title (damn fine company). It's fairly simple and abstract, with pieces
>>representing soldiers, horses, weapons, boats, etc. It's completely
>>non-random, which is interesting. In combat you simply total up the
>>factors of the involved pieces, with high total winning. So, it's a matter
>>of bringing pressure to bear upon your enemies vulnerable points at
>>the right time -- and managing the diplomacy that allows you to do
>>that without getting killed yourself.
>
>Interesting, I'd be curious to see how that works. All military
>games I've seen benefit greatly from inperfect information, either
>through somewhat unpredictable results (e.g. dice), or fog of war.
>Does it have simultaneous plotted movement like Diplomacy?
Electronic Arts did this for computer back in the 80s, called "Lords
of Conquest". Part of the paradigm is that, like chess, everything is
visible and deterministic. The most interesting part of the combat
system is that it's not necessarily reflective - the amount of
strength you can bear on a tile (from multiple tiles) is not the
inverse of the amount of strength it can bear back on any of your
tiles.
--Craig
--
David Collins from Burnley: 70K pounds
Luke Weaver from Spurs: 500K pounds
Matthew Etherington from Grasshoppers-Zurich: 1.2M pounds
Leyton Orient 1-0 St. Mirren in the 2003 UEFA Cup Final: Priceless
Blackberry
>
> Interesting mechanic. However, it isn't interaction that I find
>lacking. In the German games I've player and seen, there are
>very few mechanisms to allow other players to bring the leader
>back to the pack. If you're in second or third, you can try to
>do better yourself, but you can't attack the leader and force
>him back to give you and a couple of allies a better chance.
>Usually the best you can do is convenience him, like the
>bumping that sometimes goes on in track & field events.
Hmm, well... in a game in which trading is essential, for instance, not trading
with the leader is the same as attacking him. In Europa 1945-2030, every other
player could refuse to form alliances with the leader and agree to only form
alliances with everyone but the leader. The leader would quickly find himself
trying to catch up. It's much more than an inconvenience.
In D'r Af, you could play all of your most hazardous tiles right in front of the
leader, so he has no choice but to drive over them. Much more than an
inconvenience to slam headlong into truck after truck or to move only 2 and get
left behind.
Blackberry
>
>What German game would you recommend for someone who used to be a
Vinci
Galaxy/Titan:Arena
Civilization
History of the World*
Robo-Rally*
Cosmic Encounter*
Civilization*
Dune*
*German-like
David desJardins
> In the German games I've player and seen, there are very few
> mechanisms to allow other players to bring the leader back to the
> pack.
Many multiplayer board games do make it very easy for players to work
together against the (perceived) leader. If anything, it's often too
easy to do this, and that can be a problem with the games, which become
dominated by personalities and diplomacy rather than by strategy. Many
game designers do go to considerable lengths to avoid this problem, so
if you would rather play games that are more diplomatic, then you might
not like these games, but it's not a flaw or oversight in their design
that is to blame.
David desJardins
Thomas Ruschak
"Tony Barber" <tony....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:R9i57.75$Ii1....@news1.cableinet.net...
>
> "Nathan Sanders" <san...@ling.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
> > Exactly how I feel about computer games, since Doom is freely available
> > nowadays...all the rest are just expensive re-hashes...
> >
> > Nathan
>
>
> Ok You spend the rest of your life playing Doom and I will play all those
> new games with better graphics and story lines even though they are
> re-hashes (if we all thought like you we would still be playing with our
> sinclair ZX81's because a PC is just a re-hash)
Well, be a bit fair, huh? Nathan is quite right in that much of the FPS
&
RTS markets are filled with unimaginative knock-offs. How many of the
hundred or so RTS's that came out last year are original? Not many, I'd
say. Sure, each has its own little claim to fame, but they're basically
quite similar to what has gone before. Same for shooters, they've been
in a rut for a while, except for Half-life. If you don't play them on-line
vs. other people, they kinda blend together.
On the other hand, I've quite liked several semi-FPS games like
Thief/Thief2, System Shock/Shock2 and Deus Ex. They're not really
RPG's, but really more like RPG-shooters, and quite fun.
Tom
Thomas Ruschak
"Jasper Phillips" <jas...@spock.peak.org> wrote in message
news:9j4p9e$66a$1...@spock.peak.org...
> In article <tlbfgqk...@corp.supernews.com>,
> Thomas Ruschak <rus...@wintek.com> wrote:
> >> This is the confusing part for me, since many of the "German" games
> >> fit this "independant" mold (KoDP is an excellent game, and the only
> >> true roleplaying game I've seen on a computer). Honestly, I think
you've
> >> just managed to play the crappy German games.
> >
> > Maybe you're right. I have been collecting the names of games
> >that people have suggested here as German games I might like. I'll
> >have to try some.
>
> I typically look for reviews on the web, or especially translations
> of the rules. www.boardgamegeek.com seems pretty good for this.
Thanks for the site, hadn't seen this one.
> >> Many of them suck (I don't much care for Settlers), and indeed don't
> >> have much interactivity. Princes of Florence is another popular recent
> >> game that I can't stand (which I'm guessing is the auction game who's
> >> name your forgot). But that doesn't mean that there aren't other games.
> >> You're not likely to find serious miniatures rules, but you can
certainly
> >> find conflict.
> >
> > You're the only other gamer I've met who'll admit to not liking
> >Settlers. I was starting to think they'd impregnated the tiles and other
> >game equipment with opium or something :-)
>
> If you add in the rules for boats and islands, carefully build the map
> with an eye towards balance, and play to more points it works out better.
> I still feel there isn't really enough interaction, and that's entirely
> too easy to get scewed by nothing but bad luck. Definitely better
> games to play.
Yeah, when I played it, it did seem to have a large luck factor, which
is a negative in my book. I'd much rather lose because I screwed up
than lose to bad dice.
> > I bought Princes of Florence for a recent gaming reunion. Played
> >it twice and hated it. I did manage to give it away to a friend who
really
> >enjoyed it, so it was a win of a sort. It IS the kind of game I was
talking
> >about -- a very abstract game (with jigsaw puzzle element, yet!) with
> >few ways to attack a leader.
>
> This game almost put me to sleep. Everyone else was enjoying it so I
> held my tongue, but I don't think I'll play it again.
I had fun playing with the puzzle pieces. :-)
> >> I'd be interested in seeing a list of board games you actually like,
> >> just to see if there are similar "German" games or not.
> >> -Jasper
> >
> > Let's see. I enjoy many wargames, such as Squad Leader/ASL,
> >Russian Campaign, etc. I like Third Reich/ATR, even though I suck
> >at it. I like World In Flames, ditto. :-) I'll play simple strategic
> >games like American Civil War or some of the wooden block games,
> >though they're not my favorites. I like most anything by The Gamers.
> >Enemy At The Gates is fun, and something like the Danny Parker
> >"Hitler's Last Gamble" is great. (Damn he does good research,
> >doesn't he? His book on the Bulge is very well written and quite
> >good)
>
> You're definitely towards the hardcore end of the spectrum. ;-)
> I like those kind of games too, although I can't find anyone to play
> anymore, and don't really have the time anyway. For such complex games
> I've come to prefer PBEM computer games (e.g. Combat Mission, Operational
> Art of War), as they take care of many of the mundane aspects, and
> it's easy to find players.
Yeah. Combat Mission is brilliant, isn't it? It's the kind of game
that
makes you run out of adjectives that mean "great", right?
One thing I wish they'd add in the sequel is some way to get your
tanks to ignore infantry. I can't say how many times I've wanted to
move a tank to engage enemy armor, only to have him turn his turret
90 degrees off line to machine-gun a crew or something on the way.
Then the enemy tank pops him with a shot into the weak turret side
armor. Argh!
> > On the non-wargame side, the game I've enjoyed most is that old
> >EON classic, Cosmic Encounters. For a long time my group played
> >the original game with the first 8 expansions, and added multiple
> >hidden powers to boot. Very complicated, *tons* of strategies, and
> >had lots of ways for people to sneak in and win -- all things I don't
> >see in German games. Children couldn't play Cosmic -- way too
> >complicated. I've played it hundreds of times.
>
> Huh. Cosmic Encounters left me cold. Way too abstract and random.
> I felt there was a lot of variety, but not really much strategy.
That's one that was made 1000 times better by the expansions. Those
who have only played the later reprints are missing out. The EON
version was MUCH better. The base game was kind of so-so, but by
the time you added the first four expansions (lots of powers plus flares)
it was good and by the end it was great. They went too far, of course,
with the ninth expansion, moons, imho.
>
> > I like some social games, like Junta! I love that game. For those
> [snip]
>
> Only played it once, but it was good fun.
>
> > I also like some abstract games, like Borderlands. It's another EON
> >title (damn fine company). It's fairly simple and abstract, with pieces
> >representing soldiers, horses, weapons, boats, etc. It's completely
> >non-random, which is interesting. In combat you simply total up the
> >factors of the involved pieces, with high total winning. So, it's a
matter
> >of bringing pressure to bear upon your enemies vulnerable points at
> >the right time -- and managing the diplomacy that allows you to do
> >that without getting killed yourself.
>
> Interesting, I'd be curious to see how that works. All military
> games I've seen benefit greatly from inperfect information, either
> through somewhat unpredictable results (e.g. dice), or fog of war.
> Does it have simultaneous plotted movement like Diplomacy?
No, it was turn-based, with a production element. It tended
to involve quick conquests, as players managed to accumulate
and concentrate enough force to break through. Usually played
at about 2 hours, which was a little long but still fun.
> > I enjoy some simple games, as long as they're QUICK. I like
> >a fair number of CheapAss games, like Witch Trial or The Great
> >Brain Robbery. I like Lunch Money, an interesting schoolyard fighting
> >card-game by Atlas Games. (Kind of cool -- the designer wanted to
> >make a game, but didn't have much of a budget, so he took lots of
> >pictures of his daughters and their friends and processed them in odd
> >ways to come up with the kind of scary images on the cards. Check
> >out the pics at: http://www.atlas-games.com/lunch_money_gallery.html
>
> CheapAss games are amusing, but grow tired quickly. Lunch Money was
> a little light for me, although I liked Brawl. It's definitely quick!
Yeah, I can only play one or two of them in a 4-6 hour session. Any
more than that and I feel I'm not using my precious gaming time wisely.
> > Whew. Didn't realize this'd be so long. There're lots more I could
> >mention, but that should be enough for now.
>
> Thanks for the effort. :-) It's always nice to hear strong but well
> through out opinions of games. I think the length will help avoid much
> of the usual usenet misinterpretation.
It's always good to hear about new games to play. Thanks to some
very nice people who've discuss things in a polite way, I've already
decided to try at least El Grande and Vinci, so this discussion has been
a good thing.
Tom
Neil Carr
in the "Game Notes" section at www.bouldergames.com
Neil Carr
Be a geek! www.boardgamegeek.com
Must...play...games...
Christian Killoran
"Anthony C Kam" <ant...@mit.edu> wrote in message
news:3b55e245$0$1931$b45e...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
> What German game would you recommend for someone who used to be a
> die-hard wargamer?
Good question! About 1/2 of our game group (including myself) comes from a
wargaming background, and some of the popular German games don't really
float our boats while others are very popular. Settlers of Catan, for
example, has never really developed a following in our group.
Here are some of the games that have proven popular with the old wargamers:
Verrater
Ohne Furcht und Adel
Tikal
El Grande
Tigris and Euphrates
Condottiere
Ivanhoe
Web of Power
Atilla
I'm not sure what these games have in common that would make them appeal to
some old wargamers, this list is just based on my experience.
Rick Jones
>
> You're the only other gamer I've met who'll admit to not liking
> Settlers. I was starting to think they'd impregnated the tiles and other
> game equipment with opium or something :-)
For years, literally, after Settlers was first released and I tried
it I hated it. HATED IT! HATED IT! HATED IT! Then the Cities & Knights
expansion was released and, VOILA! It finally became worth the time and
trouble to play. Cities & Knights added the necessary complexity and
length to the game that basic was so sorely lacking. Now I have the full
set of basic, C&K and Seafarers plus 5-6 player expansions for this
game.
> I bought Princes of Florence for a recent gaming reunion. Played
> it twice and hated it. I did manage to give it away to a friend who really
> enjoyed it, so it was a win of a sort. It IS the kind of game I was talking
> about -- a very abstract game (with jigsaw puzzle element, yet!) with
> few ways to attack a leader.
I've come to several conclusions about why I, generally speaking,
dislike German style games. Most of them lack that indescribable
"something" that hooks me into a game. Maybe it's the weak combination
of theme and mechanics that most of them have. Most German games just
fail to "grab" me.
I've realized that I dislike auction mechanisms and trading
mechanisms (even though I eventually came around to liking Settlers).
I'm bad at the back-stabbing and manipulation of other players that is
often required for these. (OK, I'll give you a wood, but it'll cost you
two brick.) So games like Ra, Princes of Florence, and most other games
that use these mechanisms fall at the bottom of my interest list.
Most of these games aren't up to the level of complexity and game
length that I like. I pine for the good old days of 3-4 hour games, not
a 60-90 minute special. I like full rule books with lots of different
factors to be weighed (even when I have to pull it out to remember the
details of some obscure rule). OTOH, I can also get into a game of Fluxx
or Uno so simplicity is also good.
I've played a number of the different German games that get discussed
here and most have left me feeling bored or empty. It's like eating
Chinese food and being hungry again an hour later. For me, they don't
seem to be fulfilling. For the record there are some that I have enjoyed
enough to want to play again and to buy. They are: Settlers Of Cataan
(which took a very long time to convince me it was good as explained
above), Linie One (Streetcar), Cape Horn, Lord Of The Rings, Union
Pacific, Wyatt Earp, Metro (Paris, 1898), and King Of The Elves.
It seems to be getting harder and harder to find players that still
are interested in a game of Gunslingers, Merchant Of Venus, Titan,
Silverton, Eurorails, Circus Maximus and the other classics, at least
among the people I know here in the LA metro area.
--
Rick Jones
Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me
Cat - the other white meat.
Juan DelaCosta
>What German game would you recommend for someone who used to be a
>die-hard wargamer?
>
>Of course, many of them will never like German games, but which games
>have better chance for them to like? I suspect Settlers is not the
>right first German game for them, although it is a very good intro game
>for many others. Off the top of my head I can think of Vinci, El Grande
>and E&T. Any others? Replies based on actual experience introducing
>German games to wargamers are especially welcome!
I was a wargamer for over 25 years when first introduced to Settlers and
Manhattan. I was intrigued by the look of Settlers when I first saw it played,
and sought it out, but didn't care for either very much at all. I distinctly
remember thinking with Settlers that there was a lot I wasn't aware of, and I
was patiently waiting for it to develop when suddenly the game was over. (I
think I was expecting it to evolve into something like Civ, not accustomed to
the idea that so light a touch could be applied to game design.)
A year later I picked up a copy of brand new Condottiere, spent an evening
playing it with a group of wargamers, and I was hooked.
One of the differences in the experiences is this: Settlers was taught to me,
while I had to learn Condottiere myself with my co-players. So I never knew how
much of Settlers might still be lurking behind the curtain as I absorbed it,
and then it was over. I never had the big picture, I had no idea what was
chrome and what was crucial (in a wargame you expect to spend some time
developing an answer to that question). With Condottiere I pretty much knew
exactly what there was to it before ever beginning play.
There's also the fact that I was far more used to the idea of this style of
gaming by the time I got to Condottiere. I do now enjoy Settlers very much, and
have used it to introduce others (including my family) to gaming.
I really need to go back and try Manhattan again though someday. Probably like
it just fine now.
As for the title question, I think the circumstances of the encounter are far
more important than the particular game encountered. If pressed, the Alexander
variant of Settlers would be my answer.
*-*-*
hemmed and hawn,
Giovanni Gabotto - Perestrello's Box
Stefanie Kethers
>
> Graham Wills <gwi...@research.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> >I would suggest that Thomas play E&T with someone who has learned it.
> >It is -- at least in my opinion -- a very strongly aggresive game
> >with high player interaction and potential for serious combat.
>
> I strongly agree, assuming (1) Thomas is not turned off by the
> abstractness and also (2) he has access to players who have already
> learned the game. Given the same two caveats, I would also suggest El
> Grande, which has lots of conflict (but no real elimination of pieces
> except in rare occasions). In fact, some of my game group wouldnt play
> El Grande because of too much direct conflict!
>
> In general, lets steer this thread away from the arguments, which can
> probably be attributed to heated words and spur-of-the-moment replies
> more than anything else. How about we discuss a more interesting topic?
>
> What German game would you recommend for someone who used to be a
> die-hard wargamer?
As I've said before, maybe Verraeter or Meuterer would be of interest
(reviews etc. can be found at Luding,
http://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/luding).
You've got direct conflicts, shifting alliances, and also a certain
amount
of bluff there. Plus, although the two are (cheap!) card games, they
"feel"
more like board games.
Cheers,
Stefanie
Stefanie Kethers
>
> "Holger Peine" <pe...@informatik.uni-kl.de> wrote in message
> news:3B553C65...@informatik.uni-kl.de...
> > (Technically, this is a reply to Richard Hutnik, but I really want to
> reply to
> > Thomas Ruschak, whose posting has not reached my server (yet))> news:<tkplgr6...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > German board games -- yech! This is just MHO, of course, but I
> don't
> > > > care for any of the massively hyped German games. They're all just
> > > > diguised trading games or disguised multiplayer race games. Due to
> German
> > > > laws, you can't have any real combat in a board game, which makes them
> (for
> > > > me) dull. They remind me of the kindergarten scissors with the
> rounded
> > > > tips.
> > > > Censorship sucks, even in Germany.
> >
> > OK, many other replies have already demonstrated how silly the statement
> about
> > "trading and racing games" is, but let me still comment on the nonsense
> about
> > alledged censorship laws in Germany:
> >
> > There is no law which bars you from marketing a military-themed game in
> Germany,
> > in fact MB, part of Hasbro, used to do with a few titles, e.g.
> "Panzerschlacht"
> > ("tank battle") or "U-Boot-Jagd" ("submarine hunt"). However, such games
> don't
> > sell well in Germany, because most game boxes are bought as gifts, and
> Germans
> > don't like war for a gift (we're really a rather pacifist bunch nowadays).
> > Consequently, German publishers don't publish such games at all - there is
> > simply
> > no market for this. And besides, war games could be sure to receive bad
> coverage
> > by the critics in the newspapers (yes, we have game critics in our
> newspapers
> > :-)
> > But, let me repeat that, there is no law barring you from trying your luck
> with
> > war games in Germany (and US war games can be legally bought in a few
> import
> > game
> > shops).
> >
> > Germany is a free country, as free as the US in this respect, with one
> exception
> > explainable from our terrible history: Items with Nazi symbols are illegal
> here
> > (though often tolerated in the context of historic documentation).
> >
> > I just needed to make this clear.
>
> Holger, as you live there, perhaps you can clear things up for me. I
> had heard,
> secondhand, that a game with conflict/death in it COULD be sold in Germany,
> but
> under restrictions similar to those imposed on pornography here in the US.
> US, pornographic materials can be sold in normal stores, but must have their
> covers
> hidden and must be sold from behind the counter, and are never advertised.
> I had
> heard similar things about wargames in Germany -- sold behind the counter
> where
> minors couldn't browse them, and not advertised.
>
> Is that at all true? What laws restrict the way these types of games
> can be sold,
> if any?
>
No, that's wrong. AFAIK, you can publish whatever game you like (the
exception
being games that show Nazi symbols), and there is no restriction against
advertising. Germans play Doom and its derivates, too!
But, board games are sold widely in department stores, toy stores, etc.,
and traditionally aim at a family audience (which also means, with more
than two players).
And many Germans probably have
had enough of war to last them several lifetimes without wanting to
re-enact any
...
in at least one case, I know that a game with some war-related name
has actually been renamed. Overall, I would say there is just no
significant market for "real" wargames in Germany.
I can't say I miss them, though - but chacun a son gout ;-)
Cheers,
Stefanie
Jonathan R. Ferro
>>die-hard wargamer? [...]
>
>Vinci
>Galaxy/Titan:Arena
>Civilization
>History of the World*
>Robo-Rally*
>Cosmic Encounter*
>Civilization*
>Dune*
>
>*German-like
With the exception of Galaxy, I would say that this list is the answer
to the opposite question: "What wargames would you recommend for someone
who used to be a diehard German game player?" To that list I would
definitely add:
Victory in the Pacific
Republic of Rome
Michael B. Godfrey
"Thomas Ruschak" <rus...@wintek.com> wrote in message >
*** Lots of crap snipped******
There are lots of grognards in this newsgroup who contribute to discussions
and really prefer wargames if they had their druthers but enjoy otehr games
as wll. Clearly you are not one of these people. Go read consimworld,
since that seems to be the boundary of your interests.
- Mike
Kat
Graham Wills <gwi...@research.bell-labs.com> wrote in message
news:3B55D74D...@research.bell-labs.com...
> I don't think the use of victory points is sufficient to characterize a
game as
> a race game. A race game is one where the mechanics of the game are aimed
at
> advancing tokens along a track (or some such race equaivalent). In
Ursuppe, the
> mechanics are not aimed at advancing tokens -- all of the card choice,
position,
> movment and randomness is aimed at creating and improving resources -- the
> amoebae. It is far better characterized as a resource game than as a race
game.
>
> The scoring mechanism is a side-product of other mechanism; it's not the
> core game purpose. If you were asked "how do you win at Ursuppe?" by a
novice
> player and replied "by getting to the winning posiiton on th track first"
> you would be doing them a disservice. A much better answer would be "by
> acquiring genes and keeping as big a population of amoebae as possible".
I have a hard time with the "race game" concept in general. Because, by the
definitions that others here on the group have thrown out, Ursuppe and tons
of other games *are* race games. Yes, Ursuppe is all about growing your
little amoebas to make them the best (and most) ameobas on the the block.
However, at the end of every round, what do you do? You tally up your
amoebas and genes, etc, etc and you score points. Everyone is aiming at one
goal - getting the most points and being the first to do it.
I'm not saying that I don't disagree with you. On the terms I describe
above, Ursuppe sounds kinda lame. And it's not. I think that there's alot
more to it than just scoring points. How else can all the players tell
who's doing well and who isn't? I also think many of the other games
mentioned in this thread fall into this characterization.
I happen to really like Ursuppe and several other games mentioned on this
list. But different strokes for different folks, no?
Kat.
---
Christina L. White kat...@charter.net
"The only people up at 2AM should be the
Assasins and us." - Wulfgar the Dwarf
Kat
Christian Killoran <xm...@pcisys.net> wrote in message
news:tlc4itc...@corp.supernews.com...
> Here are some of the games that have proven popular with the old
wargamers:
This one surprises me. Don't get me wrong, I like the game a lot. But I
never find tons of conflict -- yes, I realize you can steal ruins and stuff
like that, but there's no really bloody battle stuff (real or abstract).
Perhaps it's the strategy behind it?